Hey there everybody, welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood, Scott
and David Durfey here as always. How's it going, Dave?
It's good, Scott. It's good. Grateful. I have been watching the Summer Olympics and
oh sweet. My gosh, I've been enjoying that, you know,
just the stories. I love the athleticism and I love the athletics and all of that. But
I just, I love the stories of people who overcome adversity, sometimes adversity that we can't
even imagine and rise to the top is so cool to me.
Yeah, so many great human interest stories and stories that applied to all of us.
Even team stories, I know we have several listeners in Canada and you know the Canadian
women's rugby team won a bronze medal. They almost beat New Zealand or maybe it was a
silver, silver. They almost beat New, they almost, did you see that?
I saw some of that. Yeah, they were amazing.
That was, that was incredible.
And United States medal for the first time.
Yeah, that's what, that was the bronze, right?
Bronze.
The U.S. Yeah.
And the girl from Salt Lake City scored the winning.
Yeah, not incredible.
The score.
Yeah.
What do they call it? They don't call it that.
They call it a try or something, don't they?
I don't know.
I don't either.
Anyway, that was so fun.
Yeah, it's just, it's just amazing.
Yeah.
I watched the U.S. guy on the pommel horse yesterday. That was incredible to help win
the team.
Yeah, first time in 16 years.
In so way.
Team medal.
Anyway.
And, and I'm the real reason I'm grateful is because my sweetheart who suffered a heart
attack and miraculously is going to recover and kind of set us back a little bit because
we're really trying to go on a mission.
I was telling you earlier that I kind of have a new term in my gospel lingo, which is annoying
blessings.
You know, it's such a, it's such a blessing that she, that we were able to find this out
that she had, she's had that three, she'll have to have three stents put in her heart.
She's already had one which saved her life.
You know, we're trying to go in October and you know, maybe we'll go November, December,
January, but it's just interesting, Scott, how in our lives we have a plan and that's
a good plan.
It's, you know, though, though it's a righteous desire to go on a mission and, and we, we
kind of had our own timetable and all of that.
Then I had, I had a little heart issue and had a stent put my heart and had to go through
cardiac rehab and pass a stress test, which I did just a week and a half ago.
And then it was like four days after I passed the stress test, which was the final hurdle
or, or a rung on the ladder we had to climb in order to go on a mission.
And then she has a heart attack.
Now she's going to have to go through cardiac rehab.
We'll have to pass the stress test where we can submit our papers.
It's just so annoying that this keeps happening.
And yet such a blessing because what if we would have been in Africa, which is kind of
where we were hoping to go.
And what if we would have been there and then have these, had these issues.
So you know, I know God could have healed my heart, could have healed and fixed Chris's
heart, but in the, we were, we live in a world of afflictions and not just a natural man,
hellish world we live in, but the natural causes that we all experiences.
You know, God will let it run its course and yet miraculously at the same time protect
us.
And all these things you pointed out, elder conch conference talk recently, all these
things will work together for a good.
It's just not always to our convenience.
Yeah.
That's true.
Yeah.
We, you know, we pray that our, our will and will be aligned with his and then we hang
on because you know, sometimes it's not exactly the way we would.
I loved elder gongs talk.
This was from, I'm going to just share a part of it when Dave brought this up to me this
morning.
We had talked about this talk in elders quorum this past Sunday.
And it was a great lesson that was given to us.
But anyway, this is his talk April 6 of 2004.
And 2024.
Yeah.
2024.
Okay.
A Chinese story begins with the man, a man's son finds a beautiful horse.
How fortunate the neighbors say we'll see says the man.
Then the sun falls off the horse and is permanently injured.
How unfortunate the neighbors say, well, we'll see says the man.
A conscripting army comes, but doesn't take the injured son.
How fortunate the neighbors say, well, we'll see says the man.
And then he goes on the fickle world often feels tempest tossed uncertain, sometimes
fortunate and too often unfortunate.
Yet in this world of tribulation, we know that all things will work together for the
good of them that love God.
Indeed as we walk up rightly and remember our covenants, all things shall work together
for your good.
All things for our good.
Yeah.
If we make and keep covenants and if we're faithful.
So anyway, Scott, I, annoying blessings is kind of just a new term and a new way I have
to look on some of these events in Christianized life.
But I'm just, I'm really grateful.
So, so, you know, again, I've said this over and over again throughout these podcasts is
that I know that you can have rejoicing in sorrow.
That's that's really from Paul's second Corinthians chapter six.
You can have rejoicings in sorrow and you can have peace in great affliction.
And I've felt that again this last week when Chris had a heart attack and and we're just
so blessed that I mean she could have been totally different outcome and I know God preserved
her life and you know, didn't stop the heart attack.
And if it would have not worked out the way it did and she would have gone on a different
kind of mission to a different place, we call the spirit world.
You know, Scott, you have to have the faith that the that God is in control and that that
all things if we keep our covenants do work out for our good.
And even if that happened to this horse bull as it would have been, it was sad and tragic
as it would have been for me and my family.
You know, there would have been blessings in that too.
There would have been good come out of that too.
And there would have been a purpose in that.
I mean, if you really have faith in God and that he's in control, then you have to believe
that there's a purpose in all those things that happen to the righteous who are keeping
their covenants.
You know, it was President Joseph Fielding Smith who I did some research on this years
ago and several of the prophets have quoted President Joseph Fielding Smith who said,
no righteous man woman or child will ever die before their time.
President Kimball said that no one would die prematurely if they were righteous, which
maybe maybe and I have no doubt that includes people of all faiths and all religions.
I don't think righteousness is something our church has some sort of a monopoly on all
good people of the earth.
There is purpose in even the bad things that happen to good people and the atonement of
Jesus Christ consecrates all of it.
The atonement of Jesus Christ compensates for all of it.
The atonement of Jesus Christ gives us hope in darkness and gives us a great purpose in
our lives even though we don't maybe always understand the reasons for bad things in this
life.
But anyway, so I'm just reflective on all that and really grateful.
When things like that happen it does cause pause, doesn't it?
It causes you to just kind of step back and remember.
Knocks the wind out of you a little bit.
Yeah, maybe.
But you know, maybe it's not a complete capitulation of where we've been and you know, a change
you know, for some it is.
I know that.
But I think for all of us that these those little things can be a blessing too.
You know, that's one of the blessings that can come from that is a deeper great gratitude
you know, for our covenants and for the purpose of life.
Right.
So many examples of church history of annoying blessings.
You know, Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail.
That was such a blessing for him to be kind of have that hardship because of the revelations
that came out of it and that the training and experience bring him young and the 12 had
without Joseph Smith for for those four or five months.
And you know, there's just so many examples of that throughout the history of the church
and and every person in the church, you know, who has lived a life of trying of striving
to keep the commandments.
There every individual has those experiences where you know, things happen and you go,
what's up with that?
I am striving trying to keep all the commandments and these things happen to me.
But Scott, if really if you if you have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, you understand the
power redemption in his atonement, there's purpose in it and all these things shall work
together for our good.
Not just because it gives us experience, but it literally there there will be.
I love that story.
It will turn out to be fortunate.
Anyway, yeah.
Well, we had a great we just last week when we weren't able to record.
I replayed Jorian Mandy's.
Yeah, yeah.
So I was I wasn't here because I was in the hospital last week.
What a great example to.
Yeah, yeah.
Of this very thing, you know, and so much of his choice.
And I think that this kind of really leads into Dave, I think the topic that we wanted
to cover today, which is choosing to stay, choosing to have that relationship, not letting
those kinds of things be the reason we leave.
We see challenges.
I see this all the time in recovery, both with members of the church and not members
of the church, you know, that they get a challenge.
Things are going OK.
You know, they seem to be we're leveling out.
We seem to be putting much of our problems in the past or behind us where we can check
on them through our rear view mirror, lest we forget them.
We forget them sometimes and we go right back.
But but but even that, even then, sometimes, you know, it's just difficult when we get
a big roadblock or something that challenge a trial, we fall off our horse, so to speak.
And we could just see that as a challenge that's insurmountable and sometimes some that
we love choose to leave to go away.
Well, I've always loved Brigham Young's quote on living the gospel in the dark, you know,
when when when bad things happen and you're trying to keep the commandments, it's it's
amazing how many people I've witnessed in my long old life.
It's amazing how many people just fall away.
Because their expectations weren't met in the church out of the church or individuals
within their family leave the church and how that shakes them to the core and they think,
well, if they leave the church, there must be something wrong.
So they end up leaving the church or or I'm known of of parents and I'm not I'm not being
critical here.
I'm just just making observations.
I'm known of parents who have had a gay child.
Right.
And they leave the church because they feel like the church if they're not going to support
my child if they're not going to agree with their lifestyle or they're not going to agree
with how I want to live or how somebody in my family wants to live, then they leave that
they feel like they have to leave the church to support their child.
I'm confused by that.
You know, I have a gay child and I am so grateful, you know, for him and and for his life and
for what he's taught me and what I've learned about the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I'm so grateful for what's been revealed about the about the law quote, the law of marriage.
And I understand all of that.
And why would I leave?
Why would I leave?
And and it's it's kind of like we were reading in John chapter six, you know, when when Jesus
gives the sermon of the bread of life and I mean, he's kind of really given it to the
people of of a Galilee telling them that he is the bread of life.
He's really telling them that he's the Messiah and even his apostles say, wow, this is kind
of a hard saying, you know, Jesus is really, really kind of given it to us and and Jesus
declaring himself to be the Redeemer and Savior and he can perceive their thoughts and he
asked them, will you go away?
Is that what verses are that?
Yeah, I'm going to read it actually in John chapter six.
Yeah, this is in verse I'm going to start in 66.
And from that time, many of his disciples went back and walked no more with him.
Yeah.
Because of the hardness because of the message was difficult for them to receive it and and
it was an indictment.
Honestly, it was an indictment on their hearts, right?
And from that time, many of the disciples went back and walked no more with him.
And then in 66 and Jesus said to the 12, will you go away also?
Will you also go away?
And then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to him, to whom shall we go?
Thou hast the words of eternal life.
In other words, where are we going to go?
Jesus?
Yeah, you're the way, the truth in the life.
I know.
I.
Where are we going to go?
Where can I get closer to Jesus?
Right.
Then then right here.
I mean, and this is what it comes down to, Scott.
I mean, so many parents, so many leaders of the church are are focused on helping individuals
within their stewardship to gain a testimony.
But what we should really be focused on, and that's important.
Testimonies important.
But what we should really focus on is conversion.
What are we doing to help individuals to be not just have a testimony, but to become converted
unto the Lord?
You know, this is the, I love that phrase converted unto Lord, which I think is like
five or six times in the Alma 23 24 chapters describing the anti Nephi Lehi's and their
conversion that they they had come to the knowledge of the truth because of the word
of Ammon, the teachings and testimony of Ammon.
That's Alma 23.
What verse got sick and assures the Lord live us so sure as many as believed or as many
as were brought to the knowledge of the truth.
So that's a testimony.
We need to do everything we can to help ourselves and others to believe and come to the knowledge
of the truth.
And that's not enough.
And they got theirs through the preaching of Ammon and his brethren.
Right.
According to the word and according to the spirit of revelation.
So their testimony was given to them because of the word and through the spirit of revelation.
Right.
No, no, can't get a testimony unless you've had a witness of the Holy Ghost.
Right.
And that's all critical.
The spirit of revelation and of prophecy and the power of God.
The power of God.
That's what's required that leads to conversion.
And how do we sometimes see the power of God?
Well here it was through working miracles in them.
Yeah.
So a testimony, I would put this like in a formula.
Testimony or knowledge of truth plus miracles or the power of God in our lives.
The souls see read the rest of that verse.
Yeah, I say unto you as the Lord liveth as many of the Lamanites as believed in their
preaching and were converted unto the Lord never did fall away.
That's what we got to focus on.
Converted unto the Lord.
And in order to do that, we need a testimony, which is a foundation of conversion according
to Elder Bednar, but converted unto the Lord requires miracles, the power of God in our
life having in other words, and I'm not talking about anything grand here.
Really Scott, I'm talking about the miracle of forgiveness, the miracle of repentance,
the miracle of seeing the hand of God in your life, the miracle of all of the gifts
that God has given us in receiving, receiving, recognizing and responding to those miracles
in positive ways leads us to be converted unto the Lord.
That's what we have to help ourselves and others with is to see the miracles in our
life really to be more aware of those to look for those to to try to try to bring those
about in our life.
You know, it requires some work to that they're not just going to happen.
It requires some effort on our part and some faith on our part reading scriptures and
saying prayers and doing our dailies result.
I know in daily miracles.
Yeah.
And that's the point.
You know, these these little daily miracles and in the really not little, you know, sometimes
we think of big miracles, little miracles, big miracles, raising Lazarus from the dead,
little miracles.
Scott was able to get up this morning and be functional.
I mean, you know, or whatever, you know, but from one extreme to the other.
But all miracles come from the power of God, Dave.
And big little in between miracles, they're all because of the power of God.
And so the as soon as we become able to begin to recognize even the smallest miracles, even
the smallest miracles, and maybe more importantly, those small miracles in our lives, then we
begin to recognize and see the power of God in our lives.
Once we've done that, once we've done that because our testimony is intact already, once
we've done that according to your formula or the formula from the scripture here, once
we have done that, then we are converted to the Lord.
We're changed.
We are no longer the same person.
We have become changed or converted to the Lord.
And not just in our behaviors and not just in our life, but really truly in our hearts.
Especially in our hearts and minds where we're changed.
That's what we need to focus on is a change of heart, a newness of life to be born and
again, daily over and over and over again through repentance.
And we just finished the whole course.
Scott on on repentance, what it is and what it's not.
And repentance, I think, and being forgiven of sin, being born again is what conversion
is really all about.
Now one must have a testimony or and some something of a desire as described by Nephi
and 1st Nephi 2 16.
This is what sets him apart from his brothers, laymen, and Lemuel is amazing testimony.
First Nephi 2 verse 16.
I love this Nephi kind of just speaking here and it really tells us, you know, why Nephi
is Nephi and laymen and Lemuel or who they are.
When it came to pass that I Nephi being exceedingly young, nevertheless being large in stature
and also having great desires to know the mysteries of God, wherefore I did cry unto
the Lord and behold he did visit me and soften my heart.
And I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father, wherefore I did not
rebel against him like unto my brothers.
So he had a desire to have a testimony, to know, to have knowledge, to know the mysteries.
Then it says because he prayed, exercised his faith and prayed that he had an experience.
He had a miracle.
Yeah, but this is more than praying.
Oh yeah, this is this is definitely more than praying.
And I think that's important for us to point that out, right?
And his prayer is described here as I did cry unto the Lord.
And the reason for that is because he needed to match that desire to know the Lord with
his desire to know the Lord, right?
Where he says, and also having great desires to know the mysteries of God.
He didn't just say I was wondering about the mysteries of God or from time to time these
things have popped into my head or, you know, every Wednesday night when I went to Institute
class we talk about these things or every every Sunday in Sunday school we know that's
not what he says, you know, he had a great desire, having great desires to know the mysteries
of God.
And I you know, I know where those desires come from.
Yeah, they come from a grateful heart.
Gratitude is the beginning of desire.
I know that.
And somehow Scott, he had gratitude for his father gratitude even for it.
You know, I mean, just think about this annoying blessings.
Right.
Yeah.
Think about the annoying blessing of of taking your family Lehi having to leave everything
behind and go out into the wilderness.
And everything behind for them was not a small gold and silver and all that.
Right.
They kept it all behind so that they could escape and have time to get away.
And it saved their their lives and the whole history.
The Book of Mormon is based upon this, this one journey and this one family and talk about
annoying blessing.
And yet how did how did Nephi see that?
He saw that being filled with gratitude for that.
There he felt nothing but gratitude believed in the words of his father and trusted in
the Lord.
Lame and Lemuel on the other hand, how did they see this annoyance as an annoyance?
They didn't see it as a blessing.
You know, they saw this as a as a great curse to be able to have to leave their home.
What an inconvenience.
And to go out and they then they never did really see this as being a blessing.
So I know that Nephi's great quote great desires came about because of his gratitude.
And I think gratitude is such an important part of testimony conversion and ultimately
redemption in our eternal life.
So if we can help our children, grandchildren, those who we love to feel gratitude in their
life to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ and to feel a need for him to feel gratitude
for what he has done for us to understand his suffering and all that he has has offered
us and all the gifts he offers us daily.
And we if we could just participate in that and feel that daily Scott that goes way beyond
just having a testimony of the restoration or testimony of the truth or even it's one
thing right.
It's one thing to know that Jesus lives.
It's another thing to know Jesus.
Yeah completely different.
And we have to come to know Jesus which is being converted unto him where he's part of
our lives where we know that he's he walks with us and we walk with him.
You know the great ultimate third requirement to have the faith of power.
And we did a whole podcast on faith so you might want to go back and listen to the to
you know faith.
You can never talk about it as though you have or you don't.
You always need to remember faith is in degrees.
So the question is not whether you have it.
The question is to what level do you have it and where is your on whom or where is your
faith focused.
Well the ultimate requirement of the faith of power is to this from the lecture on faith
is to know that the life the course of life that you are pursuing is pleasing to God.
That takes more than knowledge more than testimony.
That takes a giving our will to God aligning our will to God and seeking to carry his will
out in our lives and others.
That's conversion and when one reaches that point Scott I know it's I know it's a process.
I know it's not a one and done sort of deal.
But when one is really converted to the Lord as described in in Alma 23 they never did
or nor they never will fall away.
That's I just the word never is really powerful to me in that in verse six of Alma 23 they
never did fall away and in my scriptures I just wrote W O W exclamation mark because
I think that's amazing and that's because they were converted unto the Lord.
So what else can we do to become converted unto the Lord.
You know I know a few people in my past I know a few people in my life and I know I've
known them quite well and a couple of them are no longer here.
One of them is well two of them both of my grandfathers your dad and my grandpa Fagan
my mom's dad.
I knew those guys and I you know when I when I think of my grandpa Fagan for example I
know how he would react I know how he would talk I know how he smelled like old spice
after shave all the time right.
I know the scriptures that grandpa Durfee would commit or recite from memory in any
given situation my dad's kind of carried on that tradition as well.
And so I know these men the reason and how I knew them is because Dave I spent time with
them.
I spent time with them a lot of time with them and it seems like that the more time
I spend with somebody the greater my opportunity is to know them to learn of them to know how
they would react in any given situation to know the comforting words that would be thrown
my way in a time of torment or trial.
And I know that that's an earthly experience and it's been wonderful but how much more
celestial and how much more wonderful is that experience as we come to know him Jesus Christ.
Yeah well that that's that's ultimately what what it means to be converted unto the Lord
for sure Scott.
I I love the little formula or the pattern as Elder Bender puts it in the Helman chapter
15 and maybe we can just look at that real quick in Helman 15 7 and 8.
It says and behold you do know of yourselves for you have witnessed it that as many of
them as are brought to the knowledge of the truth.
Okay so there there's what formula number one principle number one brought to the knowledge
of the truth and to know the wicked and abominable traditions of their fathers or the sins of
their fathers and their own personal sins or the sins of the world that they have adopted
from the traditions of their fathers or the right or the sins of the world.
So there's the second part.
Well and I think so just push pause for a second because I think that's important that's where
we get tripped up today you know when we sometimes we can read this and say the traditions of
our fathers what are really seeing the traditions of the world here in this and that's what
we face today you know so much of this stuff on tiktok and instagram and all these other
things that are disparaging and trying to pull people away from the church traditions
of the fathers the sins of the world.
Yeah okay and and it really the way I would word this is knowing that we are just sinners
help and sinners right that we're sinners sons and daughters of sinners that we're just
Adam and Eve's sons and daughters that we live in a hellish world a fallen world equally
you don't understand the fall and the need for a redeemer then nothing else works I mean
you know if you don't need a redeemer then why would I even try to know him right and
I think that's one of the things that sometimes where we fall into a differentiation pattern
too where it's like well I have him they need him you know but but the point here is is
none of us need him less than others we all need Jesus and his atonement his redemption
equal every single one of us and that was all part of the plans God I mean God's not
surprised or upset by that no I mean and we're not being punished for that no that's all
part of the plan it's all part of the plan that we would see and it's all part of the
plan that the fathers would see and it's all part of the plan that Adam and Eve would
partake and transgress and have to leave the guard I mean we shouldn't that's not necessarily
all negative it's such a blessing the plan of redemption is such a blessing that we all
sin and to know that we need a redeemer so that's that's the second part is to know that
you need a redeemer and to recognize our sinless fallen state our sinful fallen you know and
are led to believe the holy scriptures yay the prophecies of the holy prophets which
are written so there's a third is to know of the scriptures to know of the word the
power of the word as given to us by from God through living prophets the power of the
word which leads them to faith on the Lord so really that's Alma 32 right you plant the
seed which is the word I asked who did I ask this I asked somebody Sunday I my little family
I was having dinner with and I said what what's the seed and they all said faith and they
I said no it's not and my granddaughter started seeing a primary song that said that that the
seed is faith or that faith is the seed I'm not familiar with that primary song but I
said well that's not true so she said well that's why everybody answers that grandpa
that's why everybody says that the seed is faith because because that primary song and
I said well in the scriptures in Alma chapter 32 the seed is the word so it's it's the word
that is so important in building our testimony or our faith which will grow unto repentance
our faith will grow unto repentance and repent faith and repentance bringeth a change of heart
unto them so what brings the change Scott face what now changes conversion change of heart
yeah change of heart change of life the change of even our perspective all of that is what
it means to be converted unto the Lord and according to Alma or Helium in 157 faith and
repentance bringeth a change of heart unto them so for me it's pretty simple that being
converted unto the Lord means that we repent and we it's more than just laying down your
weapons and burying them it's that you have a complete complete change of heart and you
you're willing to make covenants with God as the Antinipa Lehi's did that's what we should
focus on with our families and those who we love is what what needs to happen to lead
to conversion unto the Lord starts with starts with testimony but if that's where it ends
love what Elder Bednar said about that I think that was in October 2012 where he talks about
to testimony and conversion and he says a testimony will not be enough if you've only
got testimony that is not going to get you through the darkness of these latter days
testimony is not enough and I the Lord knew that even with Peter and the original apostles
and and the early church in the New Testament because I love one of my favorite scriptures
always been in Luke chapter 22 when when he says you know to Peter when thou art converted
strengthen thy brother I mean Peter was walking with the Lord he knew the Lord he he had a
testimony of the Lord and yet apparently he hasn't been completely converted unto the
Lord until after the resurrection of Jesus Christ that's because you know he ends up
denying him three times but it's after the resurrection the physical resurrection and
really after he gets the gift of the Holy Ghost he may have had a witness of the Holy
Ghost and a testimony of Jesus when Jesus was with him before Jesus's atoning sacrifice
but it was after the atonement of Christ after the resurrection and after Peter and the
church had received the gift of the Holy Ghost when it fell on them fifty days after the
resurrection which was the Pentecost that on the day of Pentecost is recorded in in
the acts that's when Peter became converted unto the Lord and it's more than just receiving
the Holy Ghost I well I don't know if it is more than that actually I for one to really
receive the Holy Ghost they will walk in the spirit they'll talk in the spirit they'll
live in the spirit and when we do that that's what it means to be converted daily is to
walk and talk and live according to the spirit influence of the Holy Ghost in our life which
is an amazing gift if you think about it a member of the deity so how do we walk with
Jesus to me is to have the Holy Ghost with us how do we walk with God is to have the
Holy Ghost with us because he is one with God and Jesus as a member of the Godhead
and one of the members of deity so if we will receive the Holy Ghost as Peter did then he
becomes converted and I'm sure Peter wasn't perfect or sinless even after that Peter would
have used the principle of faith and repentance and conversion is a daily process but he would
have been intentional and diligent about that.
So how does this apply in our day?
You know we live in a day when we have so much pull out there there's so much opposition
to our spiritual lives and it's really easy Dave for all of us I think to be distracted
and for us to lose not just focus but contact even with those things that can be so important
to us.
I've had an opportunity I know you have probably to a larger degree even than I to just see
people and it's been me even in the past times where we just challenged we were challenged
with things in this life and because of our distractions so I'll speak for me because
of my distractions in my life it in the past has been easy for me to not pay attention
to you use the word dailies right?
To not cry out to not be in my scriptures and trying to seek to have that spiritual
witness because when you know when we read that in Helaman chapter 15 when we read about
getting that testimony and the pattern and that pattern isn't a one and done pattern
that's not just something we do once and okay it's accomplished so that's the point you
know that's the thing that we must in order for us to keep our testimonies intact and
probably said that wrong in order for us to maintain a conversion process in our lives
because that's what's important is the conversion but to always be changing because of Jesus
Christ we have to do those things that we talked about we it's important for us to be
with him and how do we get to him you know and there's many ways and some of us will
choose different ways as some of our favorite ways to do that but you know undoubtedly you
know being in the temple and participating in those covenants that we and remembering
those covenants and learning more about and and becoming stronger in our resolve to live
our covenants we've talked about that in several episodes recently those covenants prayer
attend our church attendance and but but maybe maybe Dave sometimes in my mind the weight
because this way we can't really quantify but it's how do we treat others mm-hmm how
am I treating others how am I as a member of Christ's church or as a member of the human
family even as a child of God how am I treating others do I make others feel welcome and do
I allow others to feel I had an experience I've got a daughter my oldest daughter Jessica
she's not she's baptized but she's not active in the church the other day she went to church
and she went alone and and she went into a church where people don't know her went to
our to her ward and she felt really alone nobody talked to her she called her mom later
almost in tears I just mom I just was going there hoping to fill the spirit and hoping
to maybe fill a coming home that wasn't necessarily the words that she used and she says and nobody
talked to me now this is a kid that's not a recluse this is a kid who's out in front
and very friendly and very gregarious and just and and just felt shunned and and so
I just wonder you know how often am I doing that how often do we as a people for whatever
reason when we see differences how are we handling that and I really think that's an
important thing for us also to focus on Dave.
Yeah well you're touching kind of now Scott on what are the evidences or the signs of
conversion and Marvin Jay Ashton just a year or two before he died Apostle elder Marvin
Jay Ashton yeah came to Minneapolis in 1993 he asked a question among leadership there
and leadership meeting he asked a question what is the what is the greatest evidence
of conversion now that's a tough question because you're trying to you're you're trying to
guess what he's thinking and everybody was giving great answers you know what's the signs
or evidence the greatest sign or evidence of conversion and everybody was given these
really great answers and they they were all were evidences and signs of conversion and
this went on for a long time several minutes and everyone was almost exhausted because
he said well that's that's really good yeah that's one of the signs and evidences and
and it went on and on and after he had exhausted everybody's possible answer he said let me
just tell you can I just to give you the answer the greatest evidence and sign of conversion
is how you treat others I believe that it was that simple is how you treat others how
you see them how you treat them how you serve them that is the greatest evidence of conversion
and I and I know that he was thinking this and this and if he were here he would say
that's exactly what I meant but how do we treat others especially those that aren't
necessarily like us well you know honestly Scott that scripture in Luke let's just go
back to it for a minute Luke chapter 22 Jesus says to Peter when they are converted what
will you do strengthen your brother and strengthen your brother and now I okay so I agree with
you I just not just in our church you'll strengthen everybody you'll strengthen your brothers
your sisters you'll strengthen those in your faith none of your faith you'll strengthen
everyone you you won't put them down you won't weaken them you won't to chastise I'm
there's a there's a time and a place for chastisement but it should always be done in in love and
by the spirit and it's pretty rare and even then even then you'll strengthen them in the
chastisement you'll you'll show them away if you want to really know the chastise pattern
look at the doctrine come to section 95 verse 1 where the Lord really chastises Joseph and
Hyrum anyway another time for that so it's it's how you strengthen people even strangers
that you meet Scott how can I strengthen them the cashier you know how can then I I bought
my little diet to drink today and this cashier just seemed down and out you know and I I'm
not I'm just saying I just felt like I had to say hey I hope you I really hope things
go better for you today and you have a you have a great day today and I mean I just felt
like what can I do to strengthen her I what can we do to strengthen people that is maybe
the greatest evidence and sign of conversion and that that includes even members of our
own family and it's so easy Scott in our own families I've been thinking a lot about this
lately it is so easy in our own families when they don't meet our expectations that we somehow
just natural man that we somehow punish them or we put them down or we chastise them in
inappropriate ways or we is give them the silent treatment or we're we're I don't know
where we where we just don't handle it the way the Lord would handle it even in our own
families those who we love them up the most how do we treat them and so many times Scott
this breaks my heart but in so many times we treat members of our family less Christian
and with less grace and mercy then we treat strangers I don't get that I don't need now
I know that's natural man and I've done it I have done it but when you really think about
it what's up with that why would you treat your son your daughter your your wife your
husband your brother your sister with less grace or with less mercy or with less show
of love and kindness what why would you treat them less than a stranger well can I tell you
what was told me where much is given much is expected and we sometimes use these kinds
of things that's inappropriate and it's wrong that you know that doesn't justify but that
is sometimes I think we can adopt that thought process right especially with our own family
and I and I hate that there's just one of the things that really can be it's evil it
can be divisive none of that causes contention which is of the devil it's all of the devil
yeah yeah this is all of the devil so once again the greatest evidence and sign of conversion
the way we treat each other the way we treat each other and that includes members of our
own family and and and we're not nice yeah if we're not kind if we if we don't treat
them out of love and everything that we say and everything that we do really how converted
to the Lord are we right I mean everybody should be asking themselves that question right
now how converted to the Lord am I if I can't even treat my own son or daughter or spouse
yeah with love and respect and kindness anyway I hope I hope everyone will just think about
that and and and really think about how that applies and I know it applies to me and I can
do better and I have to repent continually and I'm still working on that and I I haven't
perfected it and I'm I'm sure there's people out there a lot better at it than I am but
I just know it's really really important and honestly Scott the way to overcome it is to
look unto him in every thought look unto him in every word look unto him in everything
that we do as we've been commanded to do and to have Jesus Christ in the spirit of the
Lord to be with us I mean when we yell when we when we raise our voice when we when we
get mad or angry out of fear or unex or unmet expectations or or when we are disappointed
in it causes us to lose the spirit of the Lord what what are we allowing yeah well you know
everything that you've just described are motivated and propagated by two words pride
and fear yeah and and both of those will come at us and those are tools of the devil that
are being unleashed in on prior to now unprecedented ways it's just it's it's ridiculous how we
have all of this coming at us and creating so much pride and fear and we could do an
entire we have in fact done an entire podcast episode on that in the past you should go
look that up too but you know when we talk for example you know if I'm going to be up
tight because one of my kids isn't particularly living the way that I think that they should
live what is that about me I'm fearful or I'm prideful and probably both right right
and I agree with what you're saying Scott and it's also just as we read in the human
fifteen right it's because of the false traditions of our fathers or our mothers or our grandparents
it's it's so often the way we treat others including members of our own family is often
just a generational carry on same old same old right when are when are we going to break
the cycle yeah when are we going to be an Abrahamic figure and break the cycle and over
and repent and over and forgive the traditions of our fathers not just about repenting of
them but forgiving them right the traditions of our fathers because so much of how we treat
others and how we are socially is often just a an echo or a copy of the way our parent
we saw our parents do it yeah and if we don't if we don't that's part of the pattern of
conversion really is to understand the false traditions of our parents and to repent of
those and forgive those so that we can really move on in our lives and come closer to the
Lord by doing things the way he would do it so the only way we can overcome the false
traditions of our parents God is to say well I love my I love my earthly parents then they're
my celestial eternal parents but my real dad yeah my real father and my spiritual father
who is Jesus Christ so we have a spirit father Elohim or our heavenly father and we have a
spiritual father Jesus Christ and to be converted to the Lord means that we recognize him as
our spiritual father and if we want to be spiritual then we should we should adapt and adopt
in our lives according to the way he lived yeah that's that's the key I think and and
how many times do we think about that a day you know am I doing it the way Jesus would
do it I mean that was the great question and they used to have what's what's the initials
or the acronym what would Jesus do ww JD ww JD what would Jesus do the great story that
is or taff Benson used to tell so often that was written by I can't remember the author
in the book but the man who who took that on as an experiment that every day he would
ask himself what would Jesus do and how it changes life and to it to really a great degree
that is that's what conversion is is to ask ourselves that and then try to try to live
that way you talk about traditions of our fathers and just trying to be a little better
and a little better and a little better I have a couple stories to go with that and I
won't share them all but but so I've tried my dad was a great dad and I've heard my
dad talk about your dad and his relationship great that relationship with his dad and I
and and but it wasn't perfect and I think that my dad's done some work and some improvement
and and made some change there and in terms in terms of the traditions of his father's
well then I come and I thought that I'd fixed them all I thought that I had taken care of
in fact you know people have said that y'all you're a tradition breaker you're you know
whatever for your family and you broke the cycle and I thought I'd broke the cycle well
I'm sitting there with this just happened Sunday we're sitting at dinner Sunday and
Dakota my middle son who has three wonderful little boys Jimmy Scotty and Hawes and he
had a discipline one of his kids Jimmy and he did it in such a calm and Christ like way
and that I think Deb made a comment to him like Dakota I'm just so impressed and he says
I'm just trying to break the traditions of my father's did he use those words yeah he
kind of maybe not verbatim but that was the message and he did use traditions of fathers
and what a blow that was to me though yeah because here I thought and I didn't really
think that you know I mean that's falling well I hope my sons break the traditions and I
was really grateful you know I did I as part of my gratitude list that night I made I made
intentionally made a note I'm so grateful for my kids who are being better with their
kids than I was with I witnessed that with my son as well yeah yeah that's really which
is it's actually a tender little mercy if we see it that way you know you know it is
yeah it's actually a tender mercy where I can just that's one of the miracles that's
one of the miracles going back to the very beginning of our podcast today that's one
of the miracles that I see greatest miracle and yeah and so that's change and that's
what helps me change forgiveness that's what helps my conversion a miracle of progression
the miracle of growth and hopefully you and me can continue to grow and and progress through
not not just on our own no no no not just on our own but through our faith in the Lord
Jesus Christ and His atonement we can repent we can improve we can grow we can progress
yeah well so you just described it to that's a version unto the Lord faith in Jesus faith
unto repentance faith in the name and you've you just encapsulated all of that so I I hope
that what's an invitation we can give our listeners well there's a couple of really good ones here
but I think one of the ones should be let's let's be really looking and seeking for the
miracles in our lives let's look for the even the small miracles that you know again small
miracles medium miracles big miracles let's look for the small miracles in our lives and
then I think the real Dave the real important invitation would be with it we should probably
all take an inventory we should all take a seeking searching fearless moral inventory
of ourselves and where we are in this conversion process how is my conversion am I converted
unto the Lord so that I would never fall away and if I am what will it take for me to maintain
that and if I'm not what will it take for me to get there love that Scott and again
just like I said about faith you can't talk about it as though you have it or you don't
you can't do that with being converted unto the Lord either it's it's not whether you
are whether you're not it's to what degree are you converted unto the Lord and I think
most of our listeners are to a large degree converted unto the Lord but I love your invitation
to take a kind of a self examination of where we are and how we can improve you know and
this is good for you and me is is is really important it may be an important first step
for us to be able to prove yeah yeah may God bless us to all be fearless in that approach
as we assess where we are in our own conversion process and then give us the power that we
need to deepen it that's our prayer we're grateful that you were with us today we look
forward to being with you again next week and until then be well