Hey everybody, we've got quite a treat in store for us today. We'll be doing a repeat
interview, an interview that we did back in January of 2023 with just some wonderful
people who have had an experience and many experiences with the enabling and compensatory
and redeeming blessings that come to us through Jesus Christ's Atonement. I know you'll like
it. Enjoy.
Hey there everybody, Scott Durfee here back with yet another podcast here with my
Uncle David say hey Dave. Hey, hi everybody. It's going to be with you. Today is going to be a very
special podcast, a very special episode. We have two special guests with us today, good friends of
mine and about to become good friends of y'all's too. We have Jory Norton, say hi Jory. Hello,
and we have Mandy Norton, Jory's sweet beautiful wife. Say hi Mandy. That's correct, sweet and beautiful.
Yeah, which is proof that Jory is just a fantastic salesman. There's truth to that too,
at least in that case. Yeah, for sure. So listen, over the past several episodes, I mean we have
nearly 40 out now, our focus the entire time has been one thing and that's been hope, healing,
and redemption through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. And today we, the reason we've brought
Mandy and Jory as special guests with us today is they have some experience that I think can help all
of us in gaining that and in establishing or even enhancing our relationship that we have
with Jesus, our Savior, through the administration of the Holy Ghost because of some experiences
that they've gone through. So I'm going to let David just kind of take it for a minute and
maybe start asking some questions and we'll just kind of follow the spirit, follow the flow. So
here we go. Well, we've talked before Scott and Mandy and Jory about the Atonement of Jesus Christ
and what the Atonement of Jesus Christ covers. We know that Jesus Christ died for our sins.
Sometimes we don't focus enough upon how he died for sins committed against us,
for the suffering that we suffer innocently, for the suffering that we suffer through our children
or through the sins or mistakes or failures of others. We don't talk enough sometimes about the
compensatory blessings of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, how he compensates us in our losses,
how this is twice in the Scriptures, right? Lehi said this to Jacob, Joseph Smith and Dr.
and Covenants, Section 98, talking about the saints in Jackson County when they lost everything,
even some lives. And the Lord says that through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, he would consecrate,
consecrate all their afflictions for their gain, that somehow even in their losses,
they would be consecrated. We think about Isaiah, that there would be beauty for ashes
through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, that there would be a garment of praise for a spirit of
heaviness. All of the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ is not to just redeem us in the
next life, in the afterlife, but how it compensates us because of the fall of Adam and Eve and not
just our sins, but our death and suffering and pain that we experience in here in mortality,
which is all part of our mortal experiences. But the Norton's, Brother and Sister Norton,
we're so thankful that you're here. And you've had some experiences that have been so difficult
that I think our listeners can just gain so much strength from hearing your experiences and the
things that you've learned from these experiences. So, Mandy, you went on a mission?
Yes, I did. South Africa, Cape Town, South Africa. And had some success there?
I think. I had a lot of fun. It was a great experience.
Learn about the Atonement of Jesus Christ. Teach the restored gospel. Come home. You enjoy
getting married how long after your home? Almost three years. You get married three years after
you returned home. Because one of your companions was his sister and that's how you met and that's
how you got married. So sweet. You had all these great spiritual experiences, but there's no way
you could anticipate what would soon happen after you returned home and got married.
And so why don't you just share with us a little bit about getting married and
and the experiences that you had early on in your marriage and the loss of your child.
Okay. Let's see. We got married in 2002. He's the one that knows that kind of stuff.
Hey, that's good. I'll take that one. I don't get very many.
We got married in 2002 and quickly we're pregnant with our first baby.
And we lost that baby early on in a in a miscarriage and quickly had another baby
three months early. So so we had two babies in the span of a year, basically a year and one month.
And this was our sweet Kinley. She was born three pounds, 12 ounces. It's just a teeny little thing,
but was a fighter and holds still holds holds the record at Utah Valley Hospital for making it
out of the ICU as quickly as she did. She was there for 10 days. So we were able to which I
see as a really big blessing also it allowed more time with her. But she required a lot of care.
So we never really left her. And then Jory, Jory's sister was getting married and was going to the
temple to have her endowments taken out. And we decided that we would leave her for the first time
with a babysitter that was known and trusted around in our community. Our family members had
used her a few times and and I had no reservations at all about leaving her with her. And we went
to the temple and had a really great experience that day with Dory's whole family. And in fact,
I think, Jory, you said just getting to know you this morning that it was one of the most
powerful spiritual experiences that you had in the temple that day. Yes, share that. Yes, absolutely.
So we, you know, just backtrack a little bit. But, you know, Mandy had come back from the mission
and met me and the time I was coming through some of my own struggles and actually in the process
of a divorce from a first marriage and and some coming out of some decisions and choices in my
life that trying to crawl out of a little bit. And and so to me, you know, she kind of came in at a time
in my life where one being a salesman is an understatement. I don't know what she thought
or what she was thinking coming into the situation to look at me and say, yeah, there's potential there.
She saw you as an investigator. I'm going to I'm going to push pause on you right now because
you're misleading our listeners to a to a slight degree. Jory is a wonderful person and always
has been. I've known Jory for about 20 years now. Jory and I met where I meet a lot of people that
we have on here and his mom and dad were actually very instrumental early on in my recovery from
drugs and alcohol. Don and Rhonda Norton will forever that their names will forever be sung
with a lot of praises in this household because I love them so much. I remember actually about
this time of year, Christmas time, going to their home for Christmas parties, you know, with with
several others. Jean was there and Patrick remember Patrick that played the guitar, you know, and all
that. It was just a great time. So, you know, Jory, Jory's a little bit self abasing here,
which is fine. But he is just a wonderful, wonderful person. He's extremely successful in
the community. He has all kinds of he's one of the best looking men. Wouldn't you agree, Mandy?
I agree. Yeah, that I've ever. He's aging well. Yeah, yeah, like fine wine, they say. I think.
I'll take it. Yeah. So, so anyway, I just had to I had to call you out on that right early,
Jory. So go ahead and continue. No, I appreciate that, Scott. And the feeling is mutual. Great.
Been great to know Scott and have the experiences we've had together. And
and but I was at a point in that my my life, I guess the perspective was I honestly looking
in the mirror at that point. Yeah, I did not like what I saw. And fortunately, when I looked at her,
she saw something better. And she saw something different. And so I she saw you with the eyes
of faith. Yeah, she she was a blessing and a miracle for sure in my life. And she may agree with
this may not, but she never she always wondered why she served a mission. It was kind of this last
minute. Literally what two or three weeks, you kind of decided I guess I should go got the papers in
and she had had a call and turned around the MTC two weeks later and said what? Well, why did I
get here? Kind of scenario. And so it's kind of one of those things as you have experience in life
and you look back, at least I I look up and again, give credit to to the man above for
for the opportunity that I was able to cross pass with her through her mission,
her getting to serve with my sister and come back. And that's the way that we were able to meet.
But again, at that time, you know, I was I I'll give myself some credit as Scott mentioned,
I definitely was striving for something better. I knew I didn't want to be living the way that I had
and some of the things that had taken place and and she came in just at the moment where it was
another motivation to say, okay, yeah, you know, I you know, you hear that story a lot, but those
women that kind of helped save us or help pull us in a better direction. And she definitely was that
for me. But as we went that time to the temple, we were fortunate enough, we were able to get married
in the temple through our time together, we dated for quite some time. But as she mentioned,
you know, with everything going on after Kenley was born, our daughter, you know, we hadn't been
really back to the temple much and left her until that time when my sister was was going through.
And so I will never forget the experience I had that day, the temple, it was just something I've
never felt or experienced since. But the power I felt that day in the temple was something now that
I definitely look back on and recognize the Lord's hand in that he was preparing me and I think
preparing both of us for what was about to take place. And so after the temple, I called the
babysitter, our daughter's name is Kinley, and she was almost eight months old, about a week away
from being eight months old. And I called to check on her and as soon as we got out of the temple,
and the babysitter said, she's fine, you know, everything's fine. And so we went to lunch and
then we went straight home. And I walked in the door and the babysitter was rocking our Kinley,
who was cold and gray, and obviously not alive. But the babysitter said that she had fallen off the
of a trundle bed. And at the time, you just believe what you're told, you know, we just
how in the world this happened, but okay, we got it, you know, let's do what we have to do. So I
grabbed her and I, I, Jory was outside in the car getting it warm for us. I grabbed her and I ran
outside and I screamed, you know, take us, we got to go to the hospital. But then I realized her
neck was broken. And I needed to put her down so that I didn't paralyze her. And so we, because I
thought going to the hospital in our car was going to be way faster than getting an ambulance to us.
But in the meantime, I took her in later on the floor and started CPR on her. And in about 30
seconds, a man that we have no idea who he is stopped and came in in his suit and tie. And he
was on his way. I think he said a baptism to a baptism. He left his whole family sitting out
in the car. And he just had heard on the radio and he was helping me do CPR within probably 30
seconds of us calling 911. And he was a professional and he immediately knew we needed a helicopter
and had everything in the works for us, but we were able to have help, which we were pretty far
away from help. And we were able to get help immediately. And I don't know how maybe five
minutes. So this guy was, when you say he was a professional, he was a medical professional.
Yeah, a paramedic. And the radio that he heard it on was his radio for work. Yes. Yeah. And he
happened to have a radio on him that he just called right in for a helicopter. And I recognized the
signal that he called. They try to not tell you in front of, you know, and I just said, why, why
do we need a helicopter? She's okay. She's going to be okay. It's still, it didn't process yet
what was going on. She just fell off of a small bed, you know, we later learned that that's not
what happened. And we don't know what happened to her. We've never been told the babysitters never
told the truth. She's told a few stories. But we were able to, to get her to the hospital. And
by the time we got to primary children's hospital, they were already doing brain surgery and removing
her skull so she could, her brain could swell. And we still had, would you say we still had some hope
at that point? I think we were still pretty naive. We've gone from Salt Lake Temple home, which was
at this point, you know, Eagle Man area, the ranch is in from that point, the helicopter landed in
the street and took our daughter, whisked her away back up to primary children's. They said, that's
where we're headed. So we hopped back in the car, driving back up that same direction. And,
and I guess at this point, it was just this utter, you know, this, well, you can't even
comprehend or understand or process or have time to even believe what happened. What was that drive
like? It was, it's super surreal when you think about it. Like, I remember watching the helicopter.
I kept just watching the helicopter. And I remember Jory's sister talking to him about how he was
going to do this without falling off the wagon, drugs and alcohol. Right. And just saying, you've
got something big ahead of you. How are you going to do this? And that's all I really remember
about the drive there. Do you remember anything else? I even at that point, as I think back now,
I feel, you know, my grandpa once shared an experience of when he was in this horrible
scenario in a plane that was going down. And he felt kind of this overwhelming, almost like honey,
just kind of draped over him that, you know, he could take a breath and he felt this peace that
he, you know, at that time didn't even know or understand, but it's later expressed what he
felt like that was. And I think even from the beginning, you know, as I look back on that drive,
one, we, it was such a whirlwind and we still, we had a reason to hope we didn't really know for
sure what had happened. We hadn't heard any definite medical determinations or of what had taken
place, but it was almost like already kind of in this cloud of protection of like, you know,
kind of what I felt in the temple that day. Yeah. And just this, this power beyond me that was aware
and not even knowing at that point what I was, what we were driving to other than something
not good had happened. So kind of in hindsight, you would look back at your experience in the
temple. You said it was one of the most spiritual experiences you had had and you were being
prepared. And so the administration of the Holy Ghost had been with you throughout that day and
was continuing with you, it sounds like. Would you say that's accurate? For sure. And we've talked
about in this podcast several times, Mandy and Jory, that the Holy Ghost, the really one of the
major roles of the Holy Ghost is to administer the Atonement of Jesus Christ in our life.
So looking back on it now, but maybe not really knowing at the time, the Atonement of Jesus Christ
was being administered into your life really right from the very beginning, even before
even before you even knew what had happened. Yeah, for sure. And through that whole process,
right? Yeah. And Mandy, you're going to tell us more about what happened at the hospital.
We got when we got there, they took us. I was a little bit of a crazy lady. I can chime in.
The ER was check full and I just barged my way right to the front desk and said,
my baby just came in on life flight. Where is she? And immediately they had us whisked off to a
room, a white room. And I'm in the medical profession. And I know what that white room means.
And it was a good hour maybe or two that we sat there and waiting for an update. And
they came down and told us that she was, well, actually, in that time, we might want to add that
we, there were detectives up there and we didn't know why they had come to interview us and took
us to separate rooms to make sure our story, they didn't know we weren't home. And it was called in
as a child abuse case by the helicopter from the helicopter. So they took us to separate areas and
interviewed us to make sure our stories matched. And then when they realized we weren't there,
we really don't know what happened to her. They came and told us she had some serious fractures
to her skull and a broken neck and had been shaken very hard. Her, her, I can't think of it right,
we're torn. Yeah. And you know that there's, we're just going to see there's a chance,
there's not much of a chance, but there's a chance. And so we waited for a long time and family members
started to come and help us. And we spent that so that this was probably by the evening, Saturday
night. And nothing had really happened besides, you know, she was being kept alive on machines.
Tons of visitors, we were just really overwhelmed. And then the next morning, they just told us,
you know, she, she declined during the night. And she's a vegetable, basically. And I can
remember on the drive, the on the drive up there also praying saying, I will take care of any
condition she's in, just save her. But so then we're Sunday morning, Jory and I were there alone.
And actually, I think, I think my parents slept in a waiting room somewhere around the hospital.
But there was a lot of that going on. Yeah, people were hiding out around waiting for us.
When I went in, and Jory was able to fall asleep for a few minutes, but I was able, I went and got
him and just said, you know, she's not doing well. And the team of doctors that had been working on
her came and took us to a private room. And sat us down and just said, you know, we have machines
keep her body alive for as long as possible, or as long as you want. But, you know, you need to
think about taking her off of life support. And they were interested in donation, that was a part
of their trying to get us to quickly, you know, make some decisions. And they just stared at us
like we were supposed to just have that answer right away. And so we asked if it was okay if we
would pray about it. And they were respectful and left us there in the room. And Jory and I
knelt down together, just offered a simple prayer. And we stood up and we didn't say a word to each
other, we just hugged each other and said, we can do this. And at that point, we walked out and just
got the doctor's attention and said, we're going to take her off. Let's find for her to go.
There was no doubt in our mind, that experience of in that little waiting room, I'll never forget.
Again, you know, I look back on the temple or the driver, these little experiences now.
And that is one that has been foundational for us as we knelt. And I mean, literally,
we stood up and we looked at each other and as we can look at each other now, and we did not
have to say a word. We never had to question. I couldn't imagine, you know, we stood up and she
said, well, I think we should do this. And I said, Oh, no, I think we should do this.
We want to attend her mercy without even word spoken, just solidified in our hearts that we knew
that this it was her time. It was her time to go throughout this whole experience to I've had
a lot of people. I think a lot more people come to me than to Jory probably. I have a lot of
other people that have lost kids and that kind of stuff that talk to me and say, how,
how are you not angry? How are you not? How did you ever go back to the temple? How did you go
back to church? How did you know any and still have people ask those questions? And it's never
been a question in our mind that it was a punishment. You know, it has always been we've
just we've had that experience really has gotten us through a lot of really hard times by referring
back to those feelings of she was supposed to go. And unfortunately, we had waited too long that her
brain had been gone too long that she couldn't donate much, but her eyes, we were able to donate
her eyes and give somebody else the chance to see. And honestly, I think through,
you know, we waited for we waited for our family members to all get there to be able to say goodbye
to her and we rocked her until she passed and driving the hardest part, I will say right for me was
leaving the hospital with my baby and heading her body over to somebody else, you know,
but I will say the they've known to people that have asked questions and asked how we did this and
how all of it we could all we always just we have no other nothing else we could refer to
of how we did this other than through the atonement and through somebody taking our pain for us.
And obviously, we still feel a lot of pain. And I miss my daughter, but the collateral beauty that
we have seen come out from it from being able to help other people. And I honestly can't can't
give you a number on how many people have called and asked, you know, how do I help my family member?
How do I help my sister? They just lost their child. This, you know, what could I do? Or I've
I've reached out when I hear of anyone that's lost a child, I always reach out to them.
I feel like that's been more my part of filling her close to me is to help other people through it.
But I haven't had a lot of spiritual experiences with her other than knowing where she is and
knowing that that I get to be with her again. But I think Heavenly Father's way of helping me
is I'm a fixer, obviously, I'm somebody that wants to help him. And I think that's something
that Heavenly Father's blessed me with is the ability to not be super emotional when I'm doing
that and to just help. You can't fix it, you know, but you can tell them that they're going to be okay
ways that we've been okay. You know, where did you kind of learn this, Mandy? I mean,
it's listening to your story. It's amazing to me. You were how old at the time? I was 26.
Yes. You were 26 years old at the time. That's been, I think you said 19, she'd be 19 years old.
Yeah, on February or let's see, February 1st, she'll have been gone for 19 years.
Yeah, wow. So you were 26 years old, Mandy, and you were able to process all this as hard as it was
and is difficult and the grief and the mourning and all that that you went through. But somehow,
your faith never wavered. Never. Your testimony was never shaken.
You somehow knew that God was in control. How, where did that come from? Where did that strength
come from? I don't know. I had to dig deep. I think, I think we both did, but
it was something on your mission. Was it something in your youth? What was it that was it just a
gift? Was it something that was, were you born with this? Is this premortal? Is I mean, where did
you get this, this, this spiritual strength or understanding of the Atonement of Jesus Christ?
And where did you get that at 26? I honestly don't know, but I think probably my mission
is where I started to kind of understand that I still don't understand the Atonement fully
and don't utilize it as much as I should and could. But I don't know. Honestly, I can't tell you.
I know it's a gift. Whether you can identify the source or not. This is a gift from God
that somehow you were, you were blessed to receive and that you received it early in your life.
And can you imagine trying to go through what you went through
without having that gift? Yeah, I couldn't. People ask all the time, how would you do that?
How I could never do what you did. You know, people say that and I don't like comparing trials. I
think our trials are relative to our own situations. I don't like people saying, Oh, I could never do
what you did because, you know, you never know how strong you're going to be until you have to be.
Exactly. And I don't know where it came from, but I know that I have quite a few moms and quite a
few people that have been able to get strength from my testimony of it. It doesn't mean that I
don't love her and don't miss her and would give anything to have her back. I would love to not have
to help these people, you know, I would love to not know what they're feeling. But a huge part
of me is to try to take some of their pain away. And I feel like that's been my calling since she
passed. I think we've we've grieved and mourned in completely different ways. And I think mine has
been more than through other people, helping and talking to other people. And just the hardest part
is not not having an answer of what happened to our child, you know, to say, I don't know what
happened to my baby, but this is how we got through it. I, you know, and we're still getting through
it. It's not something that you just get over ever. So so two things. So you were given a gift.
You received it. Yeah. 26 years old. And God has used you as a gift. I mean, literally, he's used
you as a gift and an instrument. Yeah, to bless the lives of so many more for the last 19 years.
I do feel like that's been my way of honoring her and just keeping her alive in our home and
around us is we don't we don't sugarcoat any of it. We don't. But everyone that knows us knows
about our daughter, because she's are still in our family, you know, she's still a part of our family.
And yeah, I just think that that was my, my, my own personal blessing and still is. And like I said,
the beauty that we've been able to see the ripple effect of what our testimonies have done for other
people. It doesn't mean that I haven't questioned or it doesn't mean that I haven't, you know,
but I could always go back to my testimony and knowing that I get to be with her again. And
I would never, I don't think I could do this without the gospel and knowing that I get to be
with her again. I mean, I guess other people do it, but I don't know how I would. Yeah. So, so not
only the power and the grace and the mercy and all of that from the Atonement of Jesus Christ,
not only the Holy Ghost and, and having the gift of the Holy Ghost, the Comforter to be with you
and all of that. But what I'm hearing you say is your firm witness and testimony of the restored
gospel of Jesus Christ and the doctrine that families can be together forever and the unconditional
redemption of Jesus Christ and knowing that as parents having been sealed in the Holy Temple
for time and all eternity, that that child is yours forever and ever to be raised by you
in the millennium. Yeah. That's, that's given you a lot of strength too. Yeah. It gives me a lot
of hope and it keeps me going a lot. I mean, I'll admit, you know, I feel sometimes I feel like I
have one foot there and one foot here and want to be on both sides, you know, I want to be with her,
but I, you know, I have my kids here. But yeah, I feel like we've, I've been given some kind of
strength that, that only can be explained to me through our Savior. And this angel,
Kinley has, you haven't had any, you've said told told me earlier that you have any really
personal experiences with her. You haven't felt, but how is she as an angel blessing your family?
Do you think now? I think she's with my kids a lot. I know she's with our oldest daughter.
She talks about her a lot and she, she actually writes in a journal that she writes to her.
That's how, she's, that's how much she wants her sister, you know, so she's, she writes letters to
her. This is your 17 year old daughter? Yeah. And she's always, since she was, could talk, she's
always had a very spiritual relationship with her, which has really helped also to, you know,
know that she's watching out for our kids. And, and I know that Jory's had some experiences with her.
I even know of, you know, some neighbor kids that have said some things about her that they
shouldn't know her. Yeah. So, you know, she's around. She's our little angel. We do, we call her
her our angel and I know she's around and I, and I know that she's helping me more than I recognize.
The prophet Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that those who have passed on, our loved ones who have
passed on, are more aware of us than we are of them. And they feel after us and they feel our
emotions. I think that's so interesting that, that he taught that and I believe that that we have,
we all have people who love us on the other side of the veil and who watch over us. Yeah. And who,
who definitely feel after us and are involved in our lives without us maybe being aware of them.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I prayed for years for some big experience, you know, I wanted to see her. I
wanted to see that she was okay and that, that hasn't been what Heavenly Father's wanted me to see.
So I've had to find, sometimes I have to think of, you know, how can I do today and how can I get,
you know, but I, I can, we always do. In fact, you, you mentioned that you feel like that's almost
been a protection to you. Yeah. That you haven't had like a personal experiences maybe with her.
Yeah. I just feel like it might be too, I'm really emotional when it comes to her and I feel like
it would maybe be too hard for me. And I think that's Heavenly Father's way of protecting me.
Well, jury, on the other hand, when this all happened and your sister, was it your sister
who warned you? Who warned you about this is going to be heavy? Yeah, my sister. I think it's going
to be hard. Why don't you just catch us up a little bit, Jorian, without getting into a ton of detail
about maybe a few of the challenges and so forth that you had faced and through the help of a 12
step program and your Heavenly Father and Lord and Savior Jesus Christ was able to work into
some recovery time and stuff like that. Why don't you just kind of give us that perspective? So I,
I kind of alluded to, you know, how we met, Andy and I, and where I had gotten myself to a place of,
you know, little better footing and overcome, you know, through 12 steps where, you know,
we met Scott and in, in those experiences there had gotten, you know, to a place where I had started
experiencing, you know, the atonement, you know, where I'd been in places of overwhelming despair,
you know, that whole that we dig and not knowing any other way that I could get out. I actually had
a front row seat to this, watching Jory go through the trials and stuff that he went through, not
just during this time, but prior to attending, even after it. And to watch Jory walk hand in hand
with the Spirit has been a wonderful thing through all of this, even right from the very start when
that relationship with the Spirit may have been just a little bit strange, Jory. Yeah.
No, it was, you know, it was those, you know, I kind of, in this experience and all of it, it interrelates
to just, I guess, the natural man and our finite mind trying to figure it out, you know, how do I
get through this, whether it was my challenges, you know, with addiction and substances and
overcoming those things from decisions that I'd made. You know, I, you know, you get to a point
where you try anything and everything and your own power to say, I don't want to do this, you know,
I don't want to live like this, but I knew I would make that commitment and promise to myself
every night, you know, after another day of, ah, man, I don't want to be living this way. I don't
want to be doing this, but yet that next day would come after every fiber of my being committing
that I don't want to be there. I'm not going to do this again. And the next morning I knew I would
wake up and I knew exactly where I was going to be and what I was going to be doing because I didn't
know any other way. You know, I couldn't fix some of these challenges and problems that I'd got myself
into. And that was the beginning stages of my understanding of, you know, what do I need to do
to find something in power greater than myself to restore me and help me to get out of this hole
that I've dug. And my last experience was six years of that cycle of every day, you know, just
not wanting to do the things I was doing, not want to live that way, even recognizing that,
you know, the wreckage and the things I was, you know, doing to people around me that loved me.
And I did not want that. My desires, my wants were good, but until I understood that I needed to look
beyond my own self and willpower to find a way out of this, I couldn't six years. And I remember
the day when I, what we call surrendered that, that day of complete desperation and pleading and,
you know, call it that you dug that dug that hole. And I remember one phrase that stuck with me is,
you know, if you want to get out this hole, because I was digging it, trying to dig myself
out. And that was just creating tunnels all over the place to nowhere. But the simple phrase,
drop the shovel, stop digging and look up. And kind of interrupt you really fast. I think it's
a, well, I think it's really important for, for you to say that you were able to be clean
and sober through Kim Lee's entire life, which the six years came after that. But before that,
he also struggled for years. So, you know, with this huge, you know, with addiction and recovery,
it's not just a one day thing and you're better. And he was able, we feel like it was such a blessing
from heaven that he was able to be clean for her whole life. Yeah. Well, how come? Why? Why? As
long as Kim Lee was here, what was there? What was the saving grace about Kim Lee? What was it about
this baby? This angel already? Yeah. How did she save your life for a year? Yeah, you've raised the
term gift. And that's kind of resounding in my mind. I talked about my angel wife, the gift of the
timing and when she came into my life. And then we talk about this gift of our angel daughter. And
you know, my true desires, you know, and I think through all of that, it's just, it's
understanding of the perspective. You know, we think things in our own mind and try to solve it,
but not understanding that the Lord is always there. He's mindful. He's aware of us. He waits
patiently, very patiently in some cases like mine. But she definitely, you know, was a gift
at that time. And as Mandy mentioned, one of the greatest tender mercies now that I recognize,
and we've mentioned a few of these, is the fact that her life, I was in a place where I was there
and I was present, and I was able to love her with everything I had up until her last day.
And now I continue to, and I feel her close and I know she's there. But for me, I think perspective
is really something that's changed everything in my life. It's perspective and through the spirit,
we're actually able to see a true, infinite perspective where naturally we just get caught up
in, you know, this and that and the things that, you know, we have to do here. We have to accomplish,
but we don't see the bigger picture or understand it or even comprehend it. And through all these
experiences and my experiences through the perspective of the spirit, I've learned what the
Atonement of Jesus Christ is for me, for myself, for our angel daughter, for our family. And I'm
so grateful for that. There's days now, like I said, we're in different places, you know, all of us,
we're doing different things and the world will throw something across our bow, you know, any
given day that's going to take us for a loop or ride. But I know through my experiences that in
the Sure Foundation I have on the rock of our Redeemer Jesus Christ, through my experiences,
what a gift it is to have that perspective. And no matter what, as long as I have that foundation,
I can come back to that same perspective, whether it's with my own challenges with our
family, our daughter, our 17 year old teenage daughter now, what an incredible gift we learn
through these experiences if we are able to see them through the lens of the spirit in that
perspective. The eternal perspective that the gospel gives us, right? So, Jory, I love this phrase,
put down the shovel, put down the shovel and look up. Wow. Is that a thought or like a voice in
your mind? And tell me what happened right after that? How did that come to you?
It's interesting, you mention it even now, and you can call it a thought, you can call it,
you can kind of picture it or whatever, but it is a physical experience of relief, of lifting
off these weights of years of just wondering how did I get here? How do I get to a better place?
Even though I want it with all my heart and soul, I can't figure this out. For me now, it's a daily
event. You can look at that picture, but I feel that in my things. There's things that I do every
single day now that I've learned through my experience in life and recovery that I know I
start my day every single day with that type of visual in my studies, in my prayer and meditation
that I know each day I got to do that almost in a way, fill that burden lifted and say, Lord, I
need your help and I'm ready and I'm willing. Guide me today and the things that you'd have me do.
This is like President Nelson describes the daily, the joy of daily repentance.
Basically, you feel that, right? Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for reminding me
because we take it for granted and it doesn't take long for me to think back.
And that's the gift too. We were reminded and have gratitude, which in tune keeps in line with our
humility and our ability to recognize and feel and see the tender mercy of the Lord, feel the
spirit and have the strength we need to push forward. And for me to support and love my amazing
life through these experiences, you know, and I think that's part of the, you know, the perspective
I see. There's things I went through that helped prepare me. You know, it doesn't seem like that
was a good thing for me to go through or have to experience or live with. But now, when we see
things through the lens of that perspective and the spirit, we recognize it for what it is and
it's the truth that, you know, I was here. I'm always here. And all these things will work together
for your good. And that all these things will be consecrated for your gain as an elders'
quorum president that you're right, is that your service? Your brother, yeah. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. You're my brother's war. I'm sorry for him. I apologize. You're his elders' quorum
president. I mean, through opportunities like that, really, Jory, because of your experience,
how are you able to administer the Atonement of Jesus Christ into the lives of others because
of your experience? Yeah, that is, I'm still learning, but what an amazing blessing. I have
opportunities, you know, and if anything I've learned in my experience of calling or whatever,
it's about the one, you know. And I've had opportunities to really experience that with
people that I can really understand and relate and share my faith and hope with through those
experiences. Jory's not going to be the kind of person that's going to really tout himself much,
which is great, and we wouldn't want that anyway, but I feel like it's important that I say something
about that. You know, Dave, you ask a question, how do you help administer the Atonement of Jesus
Christ, Jory, to those among whom you serve? Your ward members, virtually all of the adults in your
ward are under your stewardship, at least all of the men. And the answer to that is obvious to
those of us who know you. And it may not be obvious to you because to those of us who know you, you
know, the way we administer, the best way anything or anybody could administer the Atonement of Jesus
Christ into the lives of others is to be Christ-like. And Jory is Christ-like. And in order for that to
be accomplished, there's really a few things that need to happen too, right? The Scriptures tell us
that this is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God in Jesus Christ, whom thou
hast sent. Jesus, I mean, Jory knows Jesus. He knows him. He knows him. And then there's another
commandment, you know, be therefore perfect, even as I or your Father in heaven, which is,
even as I or your Father who is in heaven is perfect. Jory is not perfect, but Jory is inviting
and qualifying for perfection through the Atonement of Jesus Christ by supplicating himself
every single day. Right, Mandy? I mean, on a pretty regular basis, at least, to the will of our
Heavenly Father, turning his will and his life over to the care of God as we understand him,
which is the third step of the Alcoholics Anonymous. And Jory also talked about,
when you asked him about putting down the shovel, and Jory said, it's just something I have to do
every day. And the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, we read, and I don't know if I'm quoting it,
verbatim, I think I am, but we read what we really have is just a daily reprieve based on our
spiritual condition. Oftentimes, some of the greatest gifts in our lives, beauty for ashes,
you know, can come from some of the most tragic, seemingly tragic to the rest of the world,
seemingly tragic experiences. There's no doubt that the two of you and your entire family,
because this stuff doesn't happen in a bubble. This has affected everyone who loves you.
This affected Deb and I. We cried, literally cried multiple times as we prayed by the side of our
bed for you while this was going on. This stuff doesn't just happen in a bubble. It happens to all
of us. When it happens to one of us, it happens to all of us. And the thing that we've been able to
see, and I've appreciated, and Jory, you've had your struggles through it. We all have struggles
through it. But because you have been able to exercise a broken heart, right? I can't. He can.
I think I'll let him. That's how we kind of define that in recovery. And a broken heart and a
contract spirit, and you already talked about that. You know, the contract spirit is just turning
to him every day, finding joy and daily repentance. And you talked about that. And your example,
to not just those around you, not just those in your ward, not just those in your family,
not just those that you have stewardship over in your own family, too. But many, many others,
Jory and Mandy, because of the things that you've gone through, we all, we all get to fill and witness
the effects of the atonement as well. Well, I feel really Mandy and Jory, I feel like Ken Lee
has blessed my life today. Thanks. You know, just getting to know you and to know your story,
I feel like your experience and her, that she's blessed my life today. I want to read to you
a quote from Elder Anderson's book called The Divine Gift of Forgiveness. And I want you to
just comment on this, because there's kind of another aspect of this story, I think,
which is not just how the atonement covered you, compensated you, how the atonement of Jesus Christ
allowed you to consecrate your loss for gain, but how you were able to forgive, how you were able to
forgive and not allow any sort of resentment to come into your life as a result of this experience.
So let me read this quote and ask you to respond to this quote, Mandy, and just give me your thoughts
about it. Okay. Our faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ not only includes faith in the Savior's
ability to pay for our sins, but also his ability to heal our wounds when others sin against us.
Yes, Christ paid for all the sins of all the world, including the effects of those sins.
Forgiveness is not excusing sin. It is trusting in the atonement of Jesus Christ.
I like that last part so much, because can you read that last sentence one more time?
Yeah, I love it too, Mandy. Forgiveness is not excusing sin or the mistakes of others.
Forgiveness is not excusing sin. It is trusting in the atonement of Jesus Christ.
That's exactly what we've had to do. I've had to do, because I can tell you honestly,
my feelings, and I think we talked about this quite a bit, but at the beginning I just knew I
needed, I couldn't do it being angry. I couldn't live that way. I couldn't live being mad at this
babysitter. I couldn't live with that resentment inside of me and be happy. And I, it was pretty
fast that I just felt like, okay, we just need to forgive her and move on with that part.
It's not going to work. She's not going to tell us what happened.
She's never really apologized. Never apologized, really. It's just been, but
I felt pretty immediately that it was essential to forgive her
so that we could really grieve for our daughter. I will, I want to be honest in saying that
as the years go by, I do have a lot of moments of anger towards the babysitter
against, who's, you know, sinned against us, but it's always usually taken away from me pretty fast.
And the only anger I feel about it is I just want her to say she's sorry.
But that's, I just have, I know that I'm not going to know what happens until my daughter tells me
what happened to her. And holding resentment and hatred and holding those feelings inside
or it's too heavy. It's too much. So we have to give it up. That's a choice. It's a daily choice.
Several times a day sometimes. That's a choice you made from the very beginning.
Was it your focus would not be on the babysitter? Yep. Your focus was going to be on Kenley and
the atonement of Jesus Christ and being an eternal family. Yep. It's the only way that I could have
survived it. I didn't want to be here anymore after she left and that caught me through.
And for 19 years, that's been a daily choice. Yep. It's definitely a choice.
That's amazing. But I also feel like it's been a huge gift from Heavenly Father to give that to us
because had so many people say, you were in the temple. How could, you know, how, how could a loving
Heavenly Father do this to you? And that was said to us a lot. I, I could honestly say I never felt
anger towards my Heavenly Father for it. I never felt like I was getting punished or or that I,
I don't know. It's, it was just a gift. The atonement of Jesus Christ is there for all of us.
Yeah. Right. The gift is for all of us. Yeah. But it must be received and that's the choice. Yeah.
That is the choice. And you have chosen daily to choose him and to choose the atonement of Jesus
Christ and redemption and the gospel of Jesus Christ, all of that. And others who don't focus on
that, but choose to focus on the negative. It's, it's amazing how, how that goes to two different
places. Yeah. And I don't want to sound like I'm the saint that, you know, never, never has hard
feelings or never, you know, I don't want to sound like that. But we're just sinners helping sinners.
Right. Yes. I do plenty of things that are right. Yes. But I do feel like through the last 20 years,
you know, that we've, I've been guided and directed and I've been carried. Yeah. I think it's
important for us to, we've thought about this a lot, but in honoring her and through this experience,
we've had discussions of nothing else. What can we do from this and learn from this experience
and share hope? I'm sure there's listeners. And my hope is that they recognize, you know, that this
is, no matter where you're at, you know, there is that hope and there is that gift. And we, through
our experiences, you know, that's all we have to share, not a perfect way of how we got there,
how we did it, you know, it's, we all have our roundabout way, but that hope is there, that gift
is there. And as we have chosen, as you mentioned, to accept that gift, you can't even express the
gratitude that we have to our loving heavenly Father and, and to our Savior for His atonement
and sacrifice that has brought us here. Yeah. The neck, the, for us to,
I don't want to say the word celebrate, but when the anniversary of the date came of her death,
we were wondering how do we do get through this day? And we decided we go to the temple,
show heavenly, you know, it was kind of our way of thanking Heavenly Father for the gifts that
He's given us. And we went to the temple and the temple president came and talked to us for a while
before and told us that we had a baby girl coming and I sure enough had a baby girl in, in my tummy.
And it was just was a really special experience that being in the same place on the anniversary
that she died was healing for us. And we did it for quite a few years with that and invited family
members and stuff. And it just, to me, that was our way of just telling Heavenly Father, we're
still here. Thank you and keep helping us, you know. Well, thank you for your sharing your story
and the blessing of hope and, and the healing that that offers to so many of our listeners,
myself included. I'm really, I'm really, really thankful that you came and and shared your experience
with us today. And, you know, Scott will kind of help us conclude this, but I, I'd like to maybe
just invite them, Scott, when you're finished, to maybe just share by just seems appropriate,
the spirits really strong here to end with something of a testimony in the name of Jesus
Christ and so grateful for him and for all that he has given us that he, you know, was so willing to
come down and knowing that we would have these experiences, no doubt knowing even before you
had that experience that you would have that experience and that he suffered it. And grateful
that you've been able to receive it. It's, it's, it's there, but it has to be received. And those
who reject the gift, as we've talked about, not only reject the gift, they reject the giver
of the gift. Yeah, Christ himself. And you're, you're an amazing example of, of receiving that gift
and the blessing it's been in your life and in all of our lives who know you. So thank you so much,
Scott. Thanks for being with us, you guys. I hope you know how much I love you. And thanks for being
here and sharing with us something that can't be easy to share, something that can't even be easy
to relive like you must have to do even sometimes in the quiet chambers of your own soul, you know,
and to, to deal with the things that you've had to deal with. I appreciate our relationship. I
appreciate the experiences that we have had over the years. Some of my most spiritual experiences
have been in the same room with Jory and, and I appreciate that. Love you both. Thanks for being
with us today. I know that you will have touched. So we're going to conclude first, we'll hear from
Jory, then we'll hear from Andy, if that's okay. And upon conclusion, may you just know how much
our listeners, how much we love you, how much we appreciate you're being a part of this with us
today and always. And we invite you to always remember that you have always been also been
redeemed through his blood. If you'd like to get ahold of Mandy and Jory for whatever reason,
we'd invite you to just reach out to me or to David and I here at he redeems us at gmail.com.
And we will go ahead and filter those through as is appropriate to them.
Okay, with that, Jory, I first just express my gratitude for the opportunity to be here and be
with you. And as Scott mentioned, it is, it is a lot to consider when asked, because we know
every time the roller coaster we're about to jump on of emotion and reliving experiences and challenges.
But my testimony is one just ultimately of gratitude, because my next emotion right after,
oh, you know, am I going to be able to do that again? And along with my sweet wife and seeing
and knowing the emotion it brings up in her to share these experiences, immediately I go to
gratitude for what the Lord has given me for the gift of the Atonement for the redeeming power.
I truly have been rescued. I've truly been redeemed through his grace. I've seen it directly
in my day to day life and in overcoming challenges and given the enabling power through our struggles
and trials and this experience of losing our daughter that we shared with you today. But if
nothing else, I just want to share ultimately my testimony of hope through him, no matter where
you're at, and anyone listening, if there's nothing else I could give today, it would be that gift
of hope, that knowing that through my experience with the Savior and the Atonement, he has given me
the strength to overcome things that I never thought I could overcome, to get through trials
that I never could have comprehended. And in turn, taking me to places where I look at now,
and you mentioned, you know, Elders Corn President, and to me, I still like look at point, wait,
wait, you're talking to me? You know, that's me. I look back and there's no doubt in my mind,
every fiber of my being knows why and how. I used to ask the question, how did I get here? And that
was one of beaten, bruised, torn through trials and decisions and challenges and one of frustration.
Today, my testimony is complete opposite of how did I get here? And looking up and thanking my
Heavenly Father for His Son and for His grace and for the joy I have each day and living with that,
and accepting that gift that He offers each and every one of us. I just share that with you and
in my testimony and gratitude for this opportunity and love of my sweet incredible life and the gift
that she is to me. And I do that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Jory is much better at this than I am. He's more of the, He would like to shout His testimony from
the rooftops and He does as much as He can and I'm more quiet about it and a little bit more
reserved. But I'll admit it took a lot for me to get here. It took a lot of Jory coursing me to get
here. I didn't, I was scared to relive it. But I've always been reminded that if I can help one person,
it's worth it. And I truly believe with all of my heart that we don't go through our trials to keep
quiet about them. We go through our trials to help people and otherwise what, what is it?
What is it worth? You know, we didn't go through this to hide and be quiet. We went through it to
be able to be there for other people and I'm grateful that I can see that perspective. And I think,
you know, Heavenly Father, it's more subtle and inside of me my testimony, but there's nothing that I
there's nothing I hold more dear to my heart than my testimony to our Savior. And I'm so grateful that
He is there for me and gets me through a lot of hard days. It doesn't go away. People always ask,
you know, how long does it take to get over? You don't, it doesn't, you don't get over it.
And I just know that my Heavenly Father has helped me every day and He helps me to know the right
thing to say to other people that are struggling. And if I can help one person through this, it's
all worth it. And I just want to share that I know my Savior and Heavenly Father are aware of me and
I might not feel my daughter physically close to me, but I know she's around. And I know that she
is cheering us on. And I just want you to know that we're here to help each other through our trials.
We're not here to go through this alone. And that's the Savior proved that to us. And I'm just really
grateful for that. And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.