1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:20,400 Hey there everybody welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. 2 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,480 Scott and David Durfey here. 3 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:23,480 How's it going Dave? 4 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:24,480 Good, Scott. 5 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:27,320 Good to be here brother. 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:28,320 We have a friend. 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,080 We have a close friend. 8 00:00:30,080 --> 00:00:32,400 I'm going to introduce her in just a second. 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:39,480 But before I do that I just want to tell everybody thank you for your emails and questions, etc. 10 00:00:39,480 --> 00:00:41,040 Don't hesitate to keep those coming. 11 00:00:41,040 --> 00:00:44,320 You can send those at heredeemssetgmail.com. 12 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,640 Dave just mentioned we have a guest with us today. 13 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:48,960 This will be our first live guest. 14 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:55,400 We did do an encore guest I guess interview when we had Deb, my wife, do hers a few weeks 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:56,400 ago. 16 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,120 We had a rerun of a recording that we had done. 17 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:01,760 I think this is our first interview this season. 18 00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:02,760 Maybe our only one. 19 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:03,760 I don't know. 20 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:06,000 That's kind of the way it's leaning. 21 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:07,320 We really hadn't talked. 22 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:11,240 We hadn't decided not to do interviews but we hadn't really talked about what we were 23 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:12,720 going to do as far as interviews. 24 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:18,320 The other day I'm having a conversation with a young man that is here with us today who 25 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:24,720 I've known for some time and it just hit me that it's time to have Nick on the podcast 26 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,080 and get his perspective on the things that we talk about. 27 00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:30,320 I want to introduce my good friend Nick. 28 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:33,160 Nick and I have known each other for a while now. 29 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,320 I'm going to let him talk about that. 30 00:01:35,320 --> 00:01:37,360 Nick, why don't you do that? 31 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:38,760 Just say hey to everybody. 32 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,120 Kind of introduce yourself. 33 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:45,760 Tell everybody how we met and maybe just take three or four minutes and do that. 34 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,440 Hey guys, my name is Nick. 35 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:48,440 Grateful to be here. 36 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,600 Thanks for having me. 37 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:58,120 I met Scott in the rooms of recovery probably a little over three years ago and just listened 38 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:07,080 to what he had to say about church and recovery, which for me at the time I was struggling with 39 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:08,080 those two. 40 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:12,960 I loved recovery and I wanted nothing to do with the church but I also loved my relationship 41 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:19,440 with God and as I started to build a relationship with the Savior I started talking with Scott 42 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:25,560 more and more and he suggested a book, The Divine Gift of Forgiveness, which next to 43 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:31,920 the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous changed my life more than anything to date. 44 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:38,800 Then we started working the 12 steps together and had become really good friends and he's 45 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:48,240 been a great mentor and example and you've just helped me walk through a lot of challenges, 46 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:57,560 making my way back into the church, which was a journey and just how to navigate religion, 47 00:02:57,560 --> 00:02:59,560 recovery and family. 48 00:02:59,560 --> 00:03:01,440 Nick, I'm going to stop you. 49 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,760 You said walk my way back into the church. 50 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,400 You didn't do that at all. 51 00:03:05,400 --> 00:03:11,400 You walked into a completely different experience than what you had envisioned prior to what 52 00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:12,400 we had done. 53 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,120 So you were experiencing something completely new. 54 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,640 It was brand new. 55 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:17,640 Yeah. 56 00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:26,920 I feel like my experience over the past, a little over three years has just completely 57 00:03:26,920 --> 00:03:35,920 given me a new lens to view the Savior and God and what religion means to me today versus 58 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:38,080 what it was growing up. 59 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,320 I'm from Utah County. 60 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:40,320 I've lived in Utah. 61 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,040 I've been in and around the church my whole life. 62 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:48,520 Honestly, I always resented it. 63 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:54,440 I've viewed it as a necessary evil for social, family, business. 64 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:59,600 It was just one of those things that you got to toe the line, but it never made its way 65 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:08,560 into my heart where today it's a completely different story with the fact that I have 66 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:16,760 a relationship with a God that I love and with the Savior and with the Spirit and how 67 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:19,760 religion enhances those things. 68 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,800 Nick, I love all of that. 69 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:33,840 When people hear a guy, me, with 25 years sober talk about things, people tend to think 70 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:39,200 and it's human nature, well, that's easy for you, you've got 25 years sober. 71 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:44,280 You have a few years sober, three going on four. 72 00:04:44,280 --> 00:04:45,600 That'll happen. 73 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,200 We celebrate Nick's sobriety date on December 31st. 74 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,280 Nick, as you walked into that completely different experience, I think that's what we're going 75 00:04:54,280 --> 00:04:55,440 to talk about today. 76 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:56,520 How that changed. 77 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:01,520 Why was it a different experience than the one you had left? 78 00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:04,080 What focus had you made? 79 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,280 What capitulations or changes had you made? 80 00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:12,280 What about faces had you made in your attitude, in your decision making and so on? 81 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:16,920 So I think I'll let Dave, if you've got some questions you want to lead off with. 82 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:25,560 Well, let's kind of go back to your growing up, Nick, and just kind of share, not in detail, 83 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:32,160 but just generally, kind of your experience in the church, in your youth. 84 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:37,240 I grew up in the 80s and 90s in North Orem. 85 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:38,240 There was... 86 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:40,600 That's North Orem, Utah for us. 87 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:41,600 North Orem, Utah. 88 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,680 We have a worldwide audience here. 89 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:45,680 Gotcha. 90 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:46,680 Okay. 91 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:54,040 My dad was always in different leadership positions in the church. 92 00:05:54,040 --> 00:06:00,600 So I learned from a young age that it was a lot easier to go along, to get along, and 93 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,000 then do what I wanted behind closed doors. 94 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:11,160 I found drinking and partying in high school. 95 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:16,280 That became one of the most important things to me. 96 00:06:16,280 --> 00:06:22,880 And so it was like, all right, I got to put on a face on Sunday, and I'm going to do and 97 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:24,360 say whatever I need to. 98 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,920 I'd go to seminary, I graduated seminary, I went to church every week and stuff, but 99 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:36,280 it was like, well, I'll just do and say what I need to, then when I can, I'm going to do 100 00:06:36,280 --> 00:06:39,680 what I want to do. 101 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:47,440 And so it made it so that I viewed religion as just something that I needed to do, and 102 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:53,880 I never gained a relationship with the Savior or with God. 103 00:06:53,880 --> 00:07:00,480 So as you kind of shared your story, Nick, or kind of introduced yourself, it almost 104 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:06,520 sounded like, I'm not saying this is right, but from your perspective, it almost sounded 105 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:16,400 like you felt perhaps that the church or religion was almost a stumbling block to your relationship 106 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:17,560 with deity. 107 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:22,640 I thought that the church owned that relationship. 108 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,880 So if you explain that, explain that. 109 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:31,960 I didn't realize that the relationship with the Savior and with God was something that 110 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:38,400 it's just me, regardless of whatever my stance is with religion. 111 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,840 I thought that if I'm not right with the church, then I definitely can't be right with God 112 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,840 or the Savior. 113 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:50,920 So I just thought, well, if I go to church and I pay my tithing and I do my callings 114 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:59,880 and I drink when I golf, like maybe I can have the best of both worlds. 115 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:04,000 It's just really interesting your perspective of that, Nick, and I just wonder how many 116 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:10,360 more have that same perspective where they think that the church owns a relationship 117 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:17,000 with deity, that it's through the church that we have a relationship with God. 118 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:18,520 Is that how you saw it? 119 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:19,880 Yeah, I did. 120 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:26,800 And so when I wasn't involved with the church, the idea of praying when I needed help, it 121 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:28,400 never crossed my mind. 122 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:29,880 Because you were out of the church. 123 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:31,640 Because I was out of the church. 124 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:36,560 And if you weren't in the church, you couldn't have a relationship. 125 00:08:36,560 --> 00:08:39,240 Because they owned the rights to that relationship. 126 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:40,240 Yes. 127 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:47,880 And as you were growing up, this is a podcast on repentance and forgiveness, which is really 128 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:51,920 the ultimate relationship with the Savior, receiving His grace and mercy. 129 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:57,080 But as you were growing up, how did you view the process of repentance? 130 00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:02,120 Kind of describe how you saw repentance. 131 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:09,680 We've described it as turning our back on sin and facing the Savior, moving in His direction. 132 00:09:09,680 --> 00:09:11,280 How did you see it? 133 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:18,080 I saw it as that I, like me, I had to change the behavior. 134 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:21,160 I had to make all the changes. 135 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:26,440 So basically, if sin is facing one direction and the Savior is another direction, and that's 136 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:31,840 a 180-degree turn, I saw repentance as only making a 90-degree turn. 137 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,480 I turn away from sin, but I'm not turned to the Savior. 138 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:36,440 But you're not turned to the Savior. 139 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:37,440 Why? 140 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:43,480 Because I didn't feel that I felt like I had to do so much on my own. 141 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,640 So you hadn't earned the right yet to turn that other 90 degrees. 142 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:48,640 Exactly. 143 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:50,320 Or the other 45 degrees, right? 144 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:51,320 Yeah. 145 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:55,560 Did you ever hear the scripture growing up, Nick? 146 00:09:55,560 --> 00:10:00,040 We are, it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do. 147 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,640 I had heard that. 148 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,400 And was that a little bit of a problem? 149 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:13,760 So I interpreted after all we can do is that, like what I heard there is after all I can 150 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,520 do. 151 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:20,800 And the way that I understand that scripture now, the we is me and the Savior. 152 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:21,800 That's the we. 153 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,240 We're yoked together. 154 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:25,800 I love that, Nick. 155 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,480 So all that I can do, the only thing I can do is turn to Him. 156 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,040 That's literally all that I can do. 157 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:33,040 I love that. 158 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,080 I love your take on that. 159 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:40,120 I think it's really profound and I had never really considered how you described it. 160 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:46,760 But I think many of our listeners can absolutely relate to this is that so many, and I did 161 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:47,760 too in my youth. 162 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:54,160 I never thought of it this way, but it absolutely describes my efforts or the way I saw repentance 163 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:59,280 was a 90 degree angle instead of a 180 degree angle. 164 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:04,400 You know, I was going to go save myself and then after I'd saved myself that I'd then 165 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:05,840 I would turn to Jesus. 166 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:08,880 But I had to do my part first, whatever that was. 167 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,360 I didn't know what that was. 168 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:14,280 I was going to go go do what I could. 169 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:21,600 So I just think that's really a profound analogy 90 degree turn and that's not repentance. 170 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,880 In fact, it may take us further away from the Savior. 171 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,600 You know, because if we think that we're our own saviors, that may actually prevent us 172 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:35,840 from hitting a rock bottom or keep us from even feeling that we need a Savior at all. 173 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:36,840 Right. 174 00:11:36,840 --> 00:11:42,440 I didn't understand the peace and comfort that comes from turning to the Savior. 175 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:49,800 I felt like it was all about what's right and what's wrong, like black and white. 176 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,680 You know, this good deed goes in the right column. 177 00:11:52,680 --> 00:11:55,760 And if I do enough of those, it'll... 178 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,880 Maybe if I do 10 more of those than one bad, it'll cancel out. 179 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:00,880 Exactly. 180 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:01,880 Yeah. 181 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,360 Justice, the law of justice. 182 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,160 So many are relating to what you're telling us. 183 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:13,440 So tell us kind of how you came to the point and share with us your story of how you came 184 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,600 to the point where you knew you needed a Savior. 185 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:32,960 You know, I always lived in and around the church, you know, but I also was, for me, 186 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,120 pills and drinking became a counterfeit God. 187 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,600 They gave me an instant relief, you know. 188 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:43,960 And so I always knew that I shouldn't do this stuff. 189 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,480 And so I tried to control it as best I could for a long time. 190 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:56,160 And you know, I would go in spurts of, you know, doing what I considered better, but 191 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:58,320 the door was always open. 192 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:05,440 And anytime I felt emotional discomfort, take a pill or do something to numb out that 193 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:06,720 feeling, you know. 194 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:10,400 And I didn't have a relationship with myself. 195 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,880 I didn't know who I was. 196 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,760 And so I tied up my identity and external things, you know. 197 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:24,280 And in 2018, life got pretty difficult, a business that my family had, you know, we 198 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:29,400 were closing it down and I'd always worked in that business. 199 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:35,600 And I tied up how I saw myself in that, my self-worth in that. 200 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:42,160 And when that went away, you know, it was kind of like the perfect storm. 201 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,120 I had this addiction that I'd been feeding. 202 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:52,480 My foundation, my world, you know, the rug was pulled out from underneath me and I became 203 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:53,480 angry. 204 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,360 I felt like I was owed something, you know, and looking back on it, it's completely irrational, 205 00:13:58,360 --> 00:13:59,640 but it was very real. 206 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,360 By who, Nick? 207 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:02,360 By God. 208 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,480 By God, that God owed you something. 209 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:08,040 I don't even know who, but he was the easiest one to blame. 210 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:09,360 So you took it out on him. 211 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,200 Yeah, I took it out on him. 212 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:17,880 And you know, life got really difficult. 213 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,280 You know, I ended up losing everything, lost my family. 214 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:26,480 And I got to a point where I was like, you know what, I'm tired of trying to fight this 215 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:31,440 addiction and I threw out my hands and I was like, take me wherever you want to take me. 216 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:38,360 And that was really my first experience with surrendering, you know, and it took me to 217 00:14:38,360 --> 00:14:39,840 a bottom. 218 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,800 So you surrendered to your addiction. 219 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:42,800 I did. 220 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:43,800 All right. 221 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:49,360 And I remember thinking very clearly like I'm done fighting this. 222 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,200 Let's see where this goes, you know, and maybe it'll kill me and this will just be done and 223 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,200 over. 224 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:59,040 This is a pretty common, this is a pretty common sentiment, Dave, that I hear a lot. 225 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:07,560 I had it too, you know, especially from people who are dealing with drugs and alcohol as 226 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:09,280 you just mentioned. 227 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,360 So Nick, continue. 228 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,600 What happened next? 229 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:23,240 So you know, when I surrendered to that, it was like I had a bull ring through my nose 230 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,280 and I had no choice. 231 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:27,360 Choice was gone. 232 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:33,600 Well, you concur then with what Elder Oaks said seven or eight, maybe 10 years ago in 233 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:40,040 a priesthood session of general conference where he said addiction robs us of our ability 234 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:41,920 to make a choice. 235 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:42,920 100%. 236 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:43,920 Yeah. 237 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:49,280 You know, so instead of trying to fight the choice or fight the addiction, I figured if 238 00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:54,720 I just embraced it, then it would make it easier, you know. 239 00:15:54,720 --> 00:16:01,480 And you know, I went for about a year and a half down that road of complete surrender. 240 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:07,280 It took me to places that I just, I didn't know existed, you know, black became white, 241 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:08,280 good became bad. 242 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,800 Isaiah says in the last days that people call good evil and evil good. 243 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:14,800 Exactly. 244 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:18,640 You know, my view of reality just got so skewed. 245 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:24,760 I convinced myself that there was no such thing as right or wrong or morality or, you 246 00:16:24,760 --> 00:16:32,080 know, that choices didn't matter because it was an idea that I could hold on to and it 247 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,840 kind of justified what I was doing and kind of a moral relativism. 248 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:37,840 Yes. 249 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:38,840 Yeah. 250 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:39,840 Exactly. 251 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:41,840 And live your truth. 252 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:43,360 You do you. 253 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:51,200 And so, you know, I had this experience where I'm out, you know, kind of living on the streets 254 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,520 up in Salt Lake and I see that I'm going to die. 255 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,400 So were you homeless at this point? 256 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,400 Yeah. 257 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,360 Living on the streets literally in Salt Lake City? 258 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Yeah. 259 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:03,360 Okay. 260 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:04,360 Yep. 261 00:17:04,360 --> 00:17:10,560 And I see that I'm going to die and I, but more importantly than that, I felt it. 262 00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:11,560 Yeah. 263 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:15,760 I was not in my right mind at the time and it was a weird thing. 264 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:22,000 I kind of saw like these rings around us that I understood as the demands of justice. 265 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,640 And basically it was like every decision you make, there's a consequence for it. 266 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,360 Positive negative, you know, that is kind of irrelevant. 267 00:17:29,360 --> 00:17:34,880 Like you take the action, you get the result, you know, and I just saw that there was a 268 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,560 price to be paid for everything. 269 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:42,400 And it's totally different than what you believed in the few years before that. 270 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,680 Completely different than anything. 271 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,440 It was, how did you see that? 272 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:49,560 Well, how did this knowledge or vision or what would you call it came? 273 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,600 How did that come to you? 274 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,240 It was the middle of the night. 275 00:17:53,240 --> 00:18:00,000 I met this place out in West Valley, you know, doing a bunch of stuff that, you know, I'm 276 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:04,160 not proud of and the room lit up. 277 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:11,840 And all of a sudden I was like in a different place, you know, at the scene of an accident. 278 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:17,680 And I knew that the accident was like the people were there because of me. 279 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:18,680 Something had happened. 280 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:22,560 I didn't see what had happened, but I felt it to my core. 281 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,760 And it didn't last long and all of a sudden like I'm back, but I couldn't even move. 282 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:28,760 I was terrified. 283 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,520 I was petrified pain. 284 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,280 There in fear. 285 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:38,000 And I couldn't talk, you know, and I just remember the only thing I could almost get 286 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:43,440 out was like, I'm scared, you know, and so I just remember thinking like, I got to numb 287 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:47,800 this out, whatever this is, I got to numb it out, but I couldn't get it to go away. 288 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:56,520 And it was this hit in my stomach that something really bad is going to happen. 289 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,440 And whatever I just felt there, I don't ever want to feel it again because it was the only 290 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:08,520 way that I can describe it is it was completely void of light. 291 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,020 It was so dark. 292 00:19:11,020 --> 00:19:16,000 So I fought it for a week or two and I was like, I don't know what's going to happen, 293 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,160 but I can't keep doing what I'm going to do, what I'm doing. 294 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,240 So I that sounds like a rock bottom. 295 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,680 Is that kind of maybe like a rock bottom for you? 296 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:30,480 I don't know if everybody has to have a rock bottom, but it was the point where I knew 297 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,480 you had to change. 298 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:32,800 I had to change. 299 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:36,800 And so this was in May and you needed help to do it. 300 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:37,800 I needed help. 301 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:38,800 Definitely. 302 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:45,360 And so that's really when my journey started to, you know, I sought out help. 303 00:19:45,360 --> 00:19:50,080 I didn't get completely sober until December 31 to 2020. 304 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,040 This was May of 2020. 305 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:54,840 So you went several more months living in this hell. 306 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,360 Yeah, so no, I went, I got help. 307 00:19:58,360 --> 00:19:59,360 Okay. 308 00:19:59,360 --> 00:20:00,880 So I had left. 309 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,360 I never went back to that place. 310 00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:05,360 Yeah. 311 00:20:05,360 --> 00:20:06,360 Physicality. 312 00:20:06,360 --> 00:20:07,360 Yeah. 313 00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:08,360 Okay. 314 00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:13,920 You know, and I went to a place for like five, six months to get help and I was good. 315 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,160 And when I left there, I came back down to Utah County. 316 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:18,760 Were you in rehab then during that time? 317 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,080 So I went to this place called the Other Side Academy. 318 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,080 Okay. 319 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:23,840 That is like this prison alternative. 320 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:24,840 Right. 321 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:26,160 It's like a work camp. 322 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,880 And it was really good for me to go there. 323 00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:34,920 You know, that program's 30 months and I stayed for about six, but they got it so that I could 324 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:35,920 work. 325 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:40,360 You know, I was completely sober. 326 00:20:40,360 --> 00:20:46,560 But you know, one of the things that they talk about in, in AA and in recovery is that 327 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:51,440 drugs and alcohol, that is, that's how we fix the problem that's going on inside of 328 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:52,440 us. 329 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:53,760 Like that isn't the problem. 330 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:58,000 That is one solution of how to, how to treat the problem. 331 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:03,480 So when I got out of this place and came down here from Salt Lake, I was still stuck 332 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:04,480 with the problem. 333 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:10,760 Like I got a hole in my soul, you know, that can only be filled with God. 334 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:17,880 And after trying to be sober without having a solution, you know, and I started meeting 335 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,480 with a bishop and I was reading and I'm, I'm doing all these things that I'd been told 336 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,600 and I'm not having. 337 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,240 So you say you were reading. 338 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,240 What were you reading? 339 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,600 I was reading, um, believing in Christ. 340 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:29,600 Okay. 341 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,280 So you were reading church books. 342 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:32,920 I was reading church books. 343 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:33,920 Scriptures too. 344 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:34,920 Scriptures. 345 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:35,920 Okay. 346 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:36,920 Trying. 347 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:37,920 Okay. 348 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:38,920 Yeah. 349 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:39,920 Yeah. 350 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:40,920 Yeah. 351 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:41,920 Okay. 352 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:42,920 But I couldn't pray. 353 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,080 Um, I, uh, when I would try to pray, there was something inside of me that I just, I 354 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,400 couldn't do it. 355 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:49,840 I physically couldn't do it. 356 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:53,040 It was a strange sensation, you know? 357 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:59,800 And I, I got to the point where after, you know, I'd been sober like eight months, I 358 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,800 was like, if this is what it means, forget this. 359 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:07,680 Like I'd rather go back to the insanity because I get relief there. 360 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,480 Cause right now I've got this ball of anxiety. 361 00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:12,680 I feel like I can't breathe. 362 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,600 So I went back for about a week and I couldn't get the relief. 363 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,640 You went back to, I went back to using. 364 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,240 You went back to the addiction. 365 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:25,240 Yeah. 366 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:26,240 I went back. 367 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:27,740 Addictions, looking for relief. 368 00:22:27,740 --> 00:22:31,760 Looking for relief, you know, and, and I wasn't getting the relief there. 369 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:37,400 And so I went and checked into a residential treatment center just to kind of duck my head, 370 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,160 you know, cause I'm like, I, I, I feel like I'm going insane. 371 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:47,000 Like I can't live in the addiction and I can't live without it either. 372 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:49,360 Like I am screwed. 373 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:50,360 You know? 374 00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:53,160 And I didn't think there was any hope. 375 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,320 I was in a completely hopeless place. 376 00:22:55,320 --> 00:23:01,120 And, and when I was, went into that rehab, you know, the only relief I could get was 377 00:23:01,120 --> 00:23:02,120 sleeping. 378 00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,080 It was the only time I could get any peace. 379 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,840 And I remember I got to a place where I just, I couldn't sleep anymore. 380 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:14,480 And I rolled over and there's this book, the big book of alcoholics anonymous next to my 381 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:16,120 bed. 382 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:21,480 And I remember looking at it and I had no idea what this book was and I knew that the 383 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,960 Bible, they called it the good book. 384 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,040 So I feel like the big book. 385 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,040 So the alcoholics wrote their own Bible. 386 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:29,040 All right, sweet. 387 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:30,040 This thing's got to be boring. 388 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:35,120 I bet if I read five pages, I'll fall asleep, you know, and, and I started reading from 389 00:23:35,120 --> 00:23:38,440 it and it spoke to me. 390 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,760 I could relate with everything. 391 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:46,600 And it was the first time I felt hope in a long, long time and that was the opening that 392 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:56,000 God needed, you're used to, to start to speak to my heart, you know, and, and that is where 393 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,960 my journey with God began. 394 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,080 Maybe I can reframe that. 395 00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:06,720 Maybe that was not the tool God used, but the tool Nick used to be able to start hearing 396 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:07,720 God again. 397 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:08,720 Absolutely. 398 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:09,720 Yeah. 399 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,520 And the language that I understood, God was like, all right, this is the perfect place 400 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:15,520 to begin. 401 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:20,320 Like this is where I can, where I can break through to you, you know, because I became 402 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:28,240 willing to begin to, to be open to something out there. 403 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,240 Yeah. 404 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,240 Okay. 405 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:35,400 So talk to us about how did the reconciliation with the church take place? 406 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:37,760 What was the process of that? 407 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:42,560 You know, I started down this, this path because I felt a little bit of hope reading 408 00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:51,800 the big book and, and through working the steps in recovery, you know, it began to, 409 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:57,200 the beauty of the steps is that, I guess one of the best descriptions that I've heard of 410 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,760 it is like, we come to earth where a perfect magnet and we get dragged through the junk 411 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:03,240 yard of life. 412 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,800 And so we've got all this stuff that like God is there. 413 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,280 Church is blocked off from it. 414 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:15,520 And the steps do a great way of, of breaking down, I guess the repentance process, but 415 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,820 it begins to get you unblocked so that you can get that spirit into your life. 416 00:25:21,820 --> 00:25:27,120 So I started working through the steps, you know, and after about six months and one of 417 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:33,280 the things that I did, you know, my dad had always shown me through his example, like 418 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,040 the importance of daily prayer, reading things of that nature. 419 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:42,800 And so, you know, with this book, I was like, okay, my best effort is I can get up, I can 420 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,000 make my bed in this rehab and I can read this book. 421 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:50,400 And you know, I mean, that was as good as it was for me, but I committed to do it every 422 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,400 day. 423 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:55,080 So I started, you know, when things started to happen. 424 00:25:55,080 --> 00:26:02,080 And after about six months of, you know, doing the work, reading, writing, praying once I 425 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:07,880 could, I started to begin to see this thing each morning. 426 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:14,040 You know, I would see this big building that I understood to be my relationship with God, 427 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:16,000 you know, this amazing structure. 428 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,440 And it was this relationship that I was building. 429 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,400 Or this deity that the big book talked about. 430 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:23,400 Yeah. 431 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,000 You know, you didn't really maybe know who God was at that point, but you saw that you 432 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,960 had a God and a deity that was assisting you through this. 433 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:34,960 Absolutely. 434 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:35,960 100%. 435 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,360 I hadn't really given it a lot of thought or definition. 436 00:26:41,360 --> 00:26:43,520 I just knew there was something there. 437 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,280 So defining it wasn't important to you as much as experiencing it was. 438 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:56,560 Defining it was, I found that the important thing that was trying to let go of my prejudice 439 00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:00,520 of what I thought maybe it was. 440 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:06,080 And so because of that definitions can sometimes become a roadblock to our progress. 441 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,080 100%. 442 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:17,880 You know, yeah, I found that one of the biggest hurdles was what I thought I knew. 443 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,360 You know, I mean, yeah. 444 00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:26,120 So when I just allowed whatever was out there to kind of reveal itself to me instead of 445 00:27:26,120 --> 00:27:32,000 trying to put it in a box that I have what I thought it was. 446 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:39,880 It worked, you know, and so I would, I would see this structure, you know, and up to this 447 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,640 point, you know, I'm like six months sober and, and I swear I'd never go in another church. 448 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,280 I wanted nothing to do with it. 449 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:53,920 And so I'm doing these things each morning, praying, reading, writing, and I would see 450 00:27:53,920 --> 00:28:00,080 this structure being built, you know, but next to it was an empty field that was like 451 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,800 staked out, ready to be built on, you know, and I would just continually see this in my 452 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:08,240 mind's eye in the morning says I'm doing this stuff. 453 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:16,680 And I, I understood it that that was to be my relationship with Christ and that I needed 454 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:23,040 to start seeking that, you know, and when I, and at first I was like, I thought I'd 455 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,480 sidestep this and, you know, that this was all good. 456 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:33,360 And so I was like, okay, I will start in on this, you know, and so I started reading conference 457 00:28:33,360 --> 00:28:38,600 talks and, and, you know, if I'm honest about what my intentions were, my, I had this thought 458 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:42,840 of I'm going to see where they're wrong because like I would know that, you know, I mean, 459 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,560 like that's where my air is. 460 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:46,320 You're so enlightened at this point. 461 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:51,600 Yeah, you know, but, you know, because I had all these ideas that like the church just 462 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:57,280 had it wrong and, and so I start reading this stuff and I'm like, wow, this stuff's amazing. 463 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:03,000 I got to love it, you know, but I'm not going back into the church, you know, and so I did 464 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:11,160 that for, and I started reading the Book of Mormon too, you know, and, and, and it was 465 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:16,480 weird because I had this wall there, you know, like I knew that there was something there 466 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:22,240 with Christ, but it, it, there was something blocking me from it. 467 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,240 You're prejudice. 468 00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,480 I mean, what is this wall? 469 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:34,040 Would you say is it your prejudice, your anger, your just prior frustrating experiences that 470 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,000 you've had with the church or what's, what's the wall? 471 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,920 You know, I think it was some of those things. 472 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:46,840 By the way, I think everybody at some point has had a wall and the wall may be different 473 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,720 for every person, right? 474 00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:49,720 Yeah. 475 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,760 I, I feel like all of those things played into it, but the thing that I have felt in 476 00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:03,400 my heart walking this path was that God was saying to me, okay, I'm going to make you work 477 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:10,280 for this so that you truly appreciate it because I've given you a lot of free gifts and you 478 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:15,240 tend to appreciate things that you work for a little bit more, you know, but a lot of 479 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:22,720 it was my prejudice, anger, but the, the thing is through the seeking, I felt so much hope 480 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:28,480 like I knew it was there and I could feel it getting closer and closer, but it, it took 481 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:36,240 about nine months before that wall came down, you know, and, and at about six months on 482 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:43,640 this path of seeking, I decided to walk back into a church, you know, and I, I went and 483 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:50,920 got the bishop and just told him my story and was like, you know, I don't know what 484 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:56,720 needs to be done to get back into good standing, but I feel like I'll never be at peace internally 485 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:01,880 until I make things right with the church, you know, and, and at first I was like, you 486 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,240 know what, I'm going to walk through this, I'll get back into good standing with the 487 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,520 church. God, don't give me an experience with this so that I can wash my hands of it when 488 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:15,240 I'm done. So that like, all right, I'm in good standing, I'm good, I did all that, I 489 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:21,240 feel at peace, you know, and I started down that road and, and after doing that for a 490 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,560 few months and meet with the state president and the bishop regularly, you know, I was 491 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:34,960 fellowshiped and during that time, you know, I come to know Scott a lot better and he'd 492 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:42,840 suggested this book, the divine gift of forgiveness. So I'd started reading this book and it just 493 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:51,600 spoke to like the words in it. It's so similar to, to the big book and recovery and the principles 494 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:57,440 in it are the exact same. And it just, it spoke to me, it was a language that I understood, 495 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:04,360 you know, and, and so as I'm reading that book, you know, it talks about how, you know, 496 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:11,200 there's a line that says your soul will cry out for Christ. And when I read that, it was 497 00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:17,480 the most powerful spiritual experience I've ever had. It just, that wall came completely 498 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:25,600 down and I had this slideshow where God was saying, this experience you had, you know, 499 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:32,960 I've seen the feet of what you saw, no, but for that, before that, all the darkness, the 500 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:39,960 dark, this is when your soul cried out for Christ, you know, I just kind of use the circumstances 501 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:46,680 of what you were doing to, to show you something. And since this time, you haven't been making 502 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:52,000 choices. I've been guiding you, you know, and, and it was just this overwhelming thing 503 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:57,520 of, you know, I took you here to this place for six months and then I got you to a place 504 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:02,360 where you were completely hopeless. And then I gave you the big book, you know, and that 505 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,840 allowed this to happen. And then, you know, and it was just systematically was like, you 506 00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,600 think you're making choices, all you're doing is moving your feet. You're just moving your 507 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,960 feet. I'm, I'm, I'm guiding this. But you were moving your feet. I was moving my feet. 508 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:23,040 100. Awesome. You had to do something. Nick, and I will say this about Nick, Nick moves 509 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:28,880 his feet when there's an issue in front of Nick, Nick does not stand idly by waiting 510 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,440 for something to happen. He moves his feet. And God must have known you would. I mean, 511 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:39,740 God knows you perfectly right, Nick. And he knew that you would, if you reached that point, 512 00:33:39,740 --> 00:33:44,960 and you made a turn that you would move your feet. That's what he knew about you. 513 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:49,320 Before I was always concerned with the outcome and shouldering the rest, you know, this idea 514 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:55,680 that I have to go make something happen where today it's like, you know what, God's going 515 00:33:55,680 --> 00:34:00,760 to do whatever he's going to do. The path is going to present itself. So, you know, it 516 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:07,360 comes down to like, okay, today, what can I do today? I can get up. I can pray. I can 517 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,840 read. I can write. And then I can go out and it's like, where can I be of service at work? 518 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:17,280 Where can I be of service to my kids, my family? Where can I be of service? And I, in recovery, 519 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:22,000 who can I help? Where can I be of service? And as I focus on these things, number one, 520 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:29,560 I'm not thinking about myself, which makes it so that I find a lot more joy to like, 521 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,680 I just see God's hand everywhere. Walking back into that with the church, it's like, 522 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:40,520 okay, the church, I have my own relationship regardless of where, you know, if I'm active 523 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:48,200 in the church or not, I have this relationship with God, with the Savior, with the Spirit, 524 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:57,160 and going into it, having, taking that ownership of that relationship has made it so that the 525 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:03,200 teachings in the church and everything that I've experienced in the church just enhances 526 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:10,760 it. Yeah. So your redemption, your redemption, let's, let's kind of explore your redemption 527 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:16,360 here for just a minute. There's a lot of people in AA or other programs, right, can change 528 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:22,880 their behaviors. But that's not repentance. And that's not redemption. It's a change 529 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:32,520 of nature, a change of heart. It's Jesus described as being born again, right? But your redemption, 530 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:42,840 conversion has not been necessarily through the church, right? No. Nor should it be. 531 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:50,320 Nor should it be so that you see the church as you said, enhancing. Yes. Enhancing that 532 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:58,800 relationship. But before in your youth and before you saw it as your relationship with 533 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:07,080 God had to be through the church. Now you see it as the church just enhancing all of that. 534 00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:14,280 The way that I kind of view it growing up is I worship the church. It's like I got in 535 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:19,080 the building and I never made it through the ceiling up to where God and the Savior were. 536 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,640 You know, I, yeah, you were just in the building and you love the building and at maybe some 537 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,480 point in your youth or whatever you love the building, you believed in prophets and you 538 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:34,920 saw them as so special and they are. But you never got past that. Right. I worship people 539 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:41,400 and I worship the institution. The social. And then it just didn't make sense to me, 540 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:47,360 you know, and I was like, well, I'll just go along to get along, you know. But your 541 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:55,960 view now is described your experience with the church now. So my view now is that I have 542 00:36:55,960 --> 00:37:02,200 a relationship with God, with the Savior, is completely independent of anything else. 543 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:12,320 It's not contingent on, you know, church attendance or religion and then bringing religion into 544 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:17,600 it, you know, and this is just based off my experience. You know, it's not an idea that 545 00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,360 I have. It's just, it's the way that it's happened, unfolded for me. 546 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:28,480 Everybody's experience is different. Conference talks, scripture, you know, I, I cannot get 547 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:34,640 enough of the words of the Savior since I had that experience with the book. Now as I, 548 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:42,560 I just with which book, the divine gift of forgiveness. Yeah. I, I can't get enough, 549 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:49,840 you know, I read as many books on the Savior as, as I can. I love reading like C. S. Lewis 550 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:56,240 and Emmett Fox and these other Christian writers who bring in a different perspective 551 00:37:56,240 --> 00:38:03,080 because I, I just, I love it. Like it speaks to me, you know. And, and so the church now 552 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:13,880 I've, I view it as a vehicle that helps me get closer to Christ, but it isn't the, it, 553 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:19,240 I got hung up on the, the vehicle. I was trying to worship the vehicle. And yeah, that's not 554 00:38:19,240 --> 00:38:26,000 really getting me anywhere. Yeah. I think, I think that's so important. So redemption, 555 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:34,280 what point can I ask you and there may be not a point or a day or a moment, but as far 556 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:40,800 as redemption goes, Nick, or as far as forgiveness of your sins and that you were good with the 557 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:48,160 Savior, describe that process. I mean, we describe repentance, right, as a, as a process, 558 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:54,040 as a foundation. There's a foundation to it. There's conditions, broken heart, contrite 559 00:38:54,040 --> 00:39:00,040 spirit. We talk about the actions of crying out to God, giving our whole soul to God. 560 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,840 We try to talk about the manifestations of all this kind of where are you at in your 561 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:12,120 redemption or forgiveness or receiving the grace and mercy of Christ and you know you're 562 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,920 in good standing with him. Talk about that process. 563 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:25,960 For me, a lot of that has been through the immense as I make things right with others. 564 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:32,660 I feel okay with me. I know I'm good with God. Walking through getting back into good 565 00:39:32,660 --> 00:39:39,840 standing with the church, I felt like the sacrament was a formality, you know, and the 566 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:47,320 stake president would ask me questions of like, you know, when you get back into good standing, 567 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,120 like the spirit, you know, you'll fully have the spirit or I can't remember how he worded 568 00:39:52,120 --> 00:39:56,320 it, you know, but I just remember thinking like, you know what, like I'm good with God, 569 00:39:56,320 --> 00:40:05,360 like I know that. But when I got, like when I got back into good standing, the stake presidency 570 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:10,920 brought in the sacrament, they blessed it, they gave it to me. And I remember as I went 571 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,960 to take it, I kind of had a slideshow that played through some of the craziest things 572 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:22,440 that had happened in the past and just this feeling inside of like, this is, it's behind 573 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:29,200 me. Like it really is behind me. It's been a gradual process, you know, and I don't believe 574 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:35,320 that it was a gradual process for the savior to forgive me because the price was already 575 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:46,640 paid. It was becoming okay with me, you know, and for me, a lot of that is to, to, you know, 576 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:52,600 there's a saying in AA and they put it on the coins to thine own self be true. I lived 577 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:58,040 the way that I live because I feel in my heart that it's the right thing to do. Where before 578 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:05,760 I would try to live a certain way because I was thought it was, because I wanted to portray 579 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,320 an image of that I'm doing something. Maybe seeking an outcome. 580 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,560 Fit in the culture, fit in the culture and all of that, right? 581 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:26,080 Right. Yeah. Yes, exactly. And but now, but now it's just become a part of who I am. You 582 00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:35,080 know, and I mean, I, I never would have dreamed that the thing that I look forward to the 583 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:42,560 most each day is, is my time in the morning, time to get quiet, you know, and I always, 584 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:49,000 you know, praying, praying was something that needed a complete overhaul on my part. Like 585 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:54,400 I couldn't be honest when I prayed. You know, I thought that I had to take a certain type 586 00:41:54,400 --> 00:42:02,360 of reverence or whatever. And I had to, you know, my journey with that was I had to take 587 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:08,160 all formality out of it. When I would get mad, I'd swear. And when I'd pray, you know, 588 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:14,800 because it I just felt like I was so disingenuous before, you know, and I was trying to gain 589 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:24,440 an authentic relationship with, with God, with the Savior. And, you know, now it's, and before 590 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:29,640 I always felt like I was taking the game plan to him. It was like, I'm God's coach. It's 591 00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:33,520 like, all right, big guy, here's what we're going to do today. Yeah, you're going to help 592 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:38,760 me. But this is what I'm doing. And putting in a quarters, you know, I think Elder Chris 593 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:47,920 Dofferson described it to Nick as a vending machine gospel, put in the money and outcomes 594 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:56,760 the candy bar you choose. Exactly. Yes. That's how you saw it too. It's not that is it. Let 595 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:02,400 me let me ask about the formality of the sacrament. You saw it as a formality. You said, how do 596 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:09,520 you see how do you see the sacrament and ordinances and covenants now and kind of the role of 597 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:14,800 covenants in the church was just, you know, kind of unique to the church of Jesus Christ, 598 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:20,320 Latter-day Saints. How do you see that in your role of the Savior? 599 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:27,960 You know, it's a road that I've been walking down and I don't fully understand it. But 600 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:36,240 what I have come to see is that like that's the major difference between our church and 601 00:43:36,240 --> 00:43:46,560 every, you know, every other religion. And I found that the spirit is everywhere. And 602 00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:51,200 that was the thing I thought the church owned the Holy Ghost because of, you know, when 603 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,760 you're baptized, you get the gift of the Holy Ghost. So I didn't believe that if you weren't 604 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:01,200 in the church that you could have a spiritual experience, you know, and that's the beauty 605 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:07,680 of AA and some of these other places where I find spirituality is that it's like truth 606 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:13,440 is truth anywhere, you know, and the difference between the church and some of these other 607 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:18,800 things is that, you know, brings the covenants into play. You know, I just recently got a 608 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:27,840 temple recommend. And so, yeah, you know, it's something that I've just been incorporating 609 00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:33,360 in as I felt moved to do it. Is this is this the first time you've been to the temple? 610 00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:38,840 No. In your life? Or did you did you serve a mission? I don't I didn't serve a mission, 611 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:47,320 but, you know, I'd been to the temple. I'd never enjoyed it, but I'd been. Yeah, you 612 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:52,280 didn't see the symbolism. You didn't feel the spirit when you were there the first 613 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:58,280 time you went, right? Is that your experience? That is exactly. You thought it was a ritual 614 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:04,600 and probably a little weird, huh? It freaked me out. I didn't like it. Yeah. You know, 615 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:10,080 and it's been a journey to get back there because everything in me has been like, don't 616 00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:14,600 do it, don't do it. And that's generally how I know what I need to do is I don't I mean, 617 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,200 I just I don't want to do anything that's good for me. I don't know why it's that way, 618 00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:23,200 but I've just learned to recognize the feeling when I don't want to do it. It's probably 619 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:28,920 what I need to do. Yeah. Well, this 90 degree, let me just go back 620 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:36,320 to this one more time. So this former view of your 90 degree, we'll call the 90 degree 621 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:44,520 angle of repentance where you move instead of you move away from sin and you go sideways, 622 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:51,080 it's probably land you put you in no man's land, right? Describe what it means now to 623 00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:56,760 when you feel tempted or you you sin, we all sin, right? We're all sinners helping sinners. 624 00:45:56,760 --> 00:46:04,720 How is it that you turn to the Savior and you move towards Him and how have you experienced 625 00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:11,400 the my arms are outstretched steel? How do you experience that on a daily basis? 626 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:21,760 I guess I've come to the acceptance that my job is to be imperfect is to make mistakes. 627 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:27,560 That's why I was sent here. Yeah, and our whole podcast on the fall is that we should 628 00:46:27,560 --> 00:46:32,520 thank God for the fall. We should thank God, I give unto men weakness, he even said that, 629 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:39,600 Nick, in ether 1227, I give unto men weakness that they may be humble. So describe that 630 00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:45,080 and and what that means to you. So it's it's a daily reminder that I need 631 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:51,560 God, the weaknesses that I have, you know, we go to the seven deadly sins, you know, 632 00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:57,640 pride and judgment, those are like my two, you know, I have so much pride and I judge 633 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:05,640 so harshly, you know, and I see it on a on a daily basis. But I find I found that for 634 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:12,320 I always wanted to attain just enough perfection to the point where I didn't need God anymore. 635 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:20,880 Like now it's like God gave me the imperfections that I have to remind me on a daily basis 636 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:27,880 that there's nothing I can do without him. So the turning is acknowledging it, asking 637 00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:34,240 for his guidance to teach me how to be better. All I can do is turn to him. That's that's 638 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:43,000 all I can do. And then through that, there's just a change that happens where like I want 639 00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:48,680 to be better, where before it was like, I want to portray that I'm doing better. But 640 00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:54,240 in my heart, I'm holding on to these things. And I couldn't articulate those things until 641 00:47:54,240 --> 00:48:04,360 it started to change, you know, and I guess that the one that I had had to completely surrender 642 00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:11,840 was that desire to go back to that counterfeit God of drugs, alcohol, where he completely 643 00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:19,160 removed that the desire is no longer there. Number one, I didn't think that that was possible. 644 00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:24,520 And number two, it's like, okay, if I can become that willing with these other character 645 00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:30,400 defects, like he will change me, you know, or he won't, maybe he wants me to have those 646 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,320 things so that I would continue to remember to turn to him. I don't, you know, I don't 647 00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:41,800 know, but accepting the imperfections and not seeing them as a flaw, but as like that's 648 00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:48,320 how it was designed, gets me to a place where it's like, okay, I just I want to do better 649 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:56,760 today. But if I fall short, you know, what you will, when I fall short, when I fall short, 650 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:01,600 do I owe an apology to somebody? You know, because one of my favorite scriptures is in 651 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:08,160 Matthew five, I think it's 2324 right in there, where it talks about how like if you bring 652 00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,760 a gift to the altar, and then you remember, you've got to make things right with somebody 653 00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,560 else, leave the gift there, go make it right with the other people, then bring it back. 654 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:23,400 You know, I, and I believe Elder Stevenson talked about this in conference about the 655 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:27,560 bridge with the two towers. Yes. Yes. That I can't be right. 656 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:31,680 Love God and love a fellow man. Right. I got to make things right with the people around 657 00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:41,760 me. But you know, to be at peace with myself and to to be right with God. Well, John Todd 658 00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:47,560 in in first John, if we don't, how do you know you love God? Because you love your brother. 659 00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,680 If you don't love your brother, you don't love God. And if you don't love God, you don't 660 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,840 love your brother. I mean, those those towers are inseparable and one without the other 661 00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:01,800 isn't any good. I want to read the scripture and then maybe conclude with this. Nick, this 662 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:09,280 is because listening to your story has kind of reminded me of the scripture in Alma chapter 663 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:15,360 26. Ammons, Ammons kind of glorying to the Lord and rehearsing his kind of missionary 664 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:25,600 experiences and his his conversion and conversion of others. And he says in verse 17, Alma, 665 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:32,400 26, 17, who could have supposed that our God would have been so merciful as to have 666 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:43,440 snatched us from our awful, sinful and polluted state. How do you relate to that scripture? 667 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,080 And how would you describe that happening in your life? 668 00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:56,440 You know, I think that is a perfect description of what I've experienced because I I hear 669 00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:03,520 a lot of stories of people, you know, who are like, I prayed and God showed up and I 670 00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:10,240 wasn't looking for God. And he came in, you know, and I felt like he put his arm around 671 00:51:10,240 --> 00:51:16,760 me and was like, dude, just quit running. Let me help you, please, you know, and and 672 00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:23,840 then, you know, the thing that I can say that I've done is I've sought the guidance each 673 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:33,920 day and he's just moved me, you know, and guided me to things that have gone completely 674 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:39,160 against what I wanted. But, you know, I've also come to the realization that I've never 675 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:46,360 known what's best for me. And rarely do I want what's best for me, you know, and so, 676 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:51,000 so, you know, just surrendering to like, all right, you point me where you want me to go 677 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:57,640 and I'll go. That's awesome. Well, we're grateful you've been snatched. I'm grateful 678 00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:04,000 that I've been snatched. Grateful that Scott's been snatched. I mean, I love that word in 679 00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:12,120 the scriptures. We've all been snatched. And I really appreciate your story, Nick, and 680 00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:18,480 your willingness and humility to share it with all of us. I hope there's some takeaways 681 00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:24,680 here that one of them, I think the real powerful things that you've taught us, Nick, the false 682 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:32,080 way to see repentance is going sideways. I honestly, so many people see it as either 683 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:39,560 I face sin or I face the Savior. But the truth is, when you go 90 degrees, you face nothing. 684 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:45,440 And you this bleakness and all the false gods that fill in the blanks for us, this counterfeit 685 00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:52,480 God that you've talked about. And then how you how you now interpret second Nephi, you 686 00:52:52,480 --> 00:53:01,680 know, 25 that we are saved by grace after all we can do is the Savior and you not not 687 00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:07,920 just not all I can do. It's not I, it's we, and you're equally yoked to the Savior. And 688 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:14,560 I really appreciate your perspective on that. So I hope that all of our listeners can review 689 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:20,120 their lives, think about maybe when they were snatched, or think about what we need to do 690 00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:29,080 to put ourselves in a position to be snatched, where the or the Savior can can work with us 691 00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:36,600 where he can turn us help us turn towards him. And all we have to do is move our feet. 692 00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:42,920 But I know God knows that all of his children in the right situation, in the right conditions 693 00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:49,920 at the right time, that he will be there for them and hopefully sooner than later for all 694 00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,440 of us. Anyway, thanks. Thanks again, Nick for being here. 695 00:53:54,440 --> 00:54:00,080 Thanks for having me. Nick, just as we close, the very last paragraph in the big book of 696 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:07,320 Alcoholics Anonymous on page 164, it really kind of describes Nick. I've had a very intimate 697 00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:13,400 purview of Nick over the last few years now as we've worked steps together and kind of 698 00:54:13,400 --> 00:54:18,600 trudged the happy road to destiny as we call it in Alcoholics Anonymous. And Nick really 699 00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:24,400 embodies this. And the reason for the embodiment of this is because of the experience that 700 00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:29,000 you've just heard and the one that you've just shared, Nick. We appreciate you being 701 00:54:29,000 --> 00:54:33,000 here today. We appreciate the love that you have for your Heavenly Father. It shows it 702 00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,920 shows in everything that you do. And again, I am privileged to be able to see that in 703 00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:42,880 your life on an almost a daily basis. Here's what it says. It says, abandon yourself to 704 00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:49,160 God as you understand God. Admit your faults to Him. Clear away the wreckage of your past. 705 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,560 Give freely of what you find and join us. We shall be with you in the fellowship of 706 00:54:53,560 --> 00:55:00,640 the Spirit. And you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the happy road to destiny. 707 00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:07,640 May God bless you and keep you until then. Nick, I love you. I hope you know that. I 708 00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:17,280 admire your efforts. The way that you have been honest in your approach to your relationship 709 00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:22,400 with the idea has been exemplary, not just to me, but literally hundreds of others, not 710 00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:27,720 just in AA, but other places as well. God loves you. He appreciates what you're doing 711 00:55:27,720 --> 00:55:33,560 now and all that you're going to continue to do. Thanks for being with us, everybody. 712 00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:39,760 Our invitation to you would be to look in your lives where maybe we have seen repentance 713 00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:47,520 as a 90 degree angle or maybe where we have been amiss in some parts of our lives in having 714 00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:51,840 that relationship directly with Him. Thanks for being with us. Thank you, Nick. We look 715 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:58,840 forward to being with you again. Until then, be well.