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Hey there everybody, welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood.

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Scott and David Durfey here as always. How are you David?

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Oh good, good Scott.

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Anxious to jump into our topic today.

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We've got a lot of great stuff to cover today.

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Start really getting to the heart of what repentance is all about

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and the simplicity but the power of it.

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I was telling my kids, my kids, those of you who are in my institute class and hear that, please.

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Yeah, they're kind of your kids.

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Please don't take offense. I know that you're young adults and in many ways even more mature than maybe some of us sometimes.

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But my kids in institute, this is what we were talking about last week. We talk about all of the events of the fall.

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We talk about all of the events of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and just have a wonderful experience around all that.

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And of course, as we're doing that, the Spirit is bearing witness to us of the truthfulness of those things.

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And so I think that's great.

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But then when it comes down to where we are now, David, this is sometimes the challenge is, okay, how do we access all of these things?

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So this is kind of where the rubber hits the road, Scott.

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Yeah, it really is.

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Hey, but before we dive into our topic today, I just want to tell you all thanks.

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We've received a couple, Mitch and Roger and a few others.

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We've received some really in carry some great emails recently and we appreciate your encouragement.

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We appreciate your questions.

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Mitch has one here, Dave, that I think that we could answer on the podcast.

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Actually, Dave, there's two here that we should probably just touch on.

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One is I just want to read something that a person by the name of Mitch wrote.

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Well, I love what he wrote.

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And let me let me just kind of summarize it.

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Yeah, yeah, we won't.

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But I, you know, the word change is really what the repent means in Hebrew is change, right?

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He makes a great point.

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That's the result of repentance.

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That's not just changing is not repentance.

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There's no, there's no real repentance, no real redemption.

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If somebody just changes or stops a habit, but when one has truly repented, I don't care if it's Old Testament Hebrew or New Testament Greek or or

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Africans or English, I don't care what however you want to say the word and whatever it means in whatever language, it has to be through Jesus Christ and through the blood of Jesus Christ.

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And eventually you're not only changed because the behavior is either stopped or started.

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I mean, there's there's sins of omission where we're sinning because we're not doing things we should be doing.

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And there's sins of commission that we need to stop doing.

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But either way, that true repentance is is through Jesus Christ and the change is not so much the change of behavior, but a change of nature.

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Yeah, that change of heart and a change of being.

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Yeah, it's a different person.

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You're right.

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Yeah, same person, but not the same person.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Metamorphosis and that that changes is the result, not the not really the process.

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So anyway, so thanks for pointing that out, Mitch.

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Thanks so much.

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We appreciate that.

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So here's it.

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Here's another one.

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This is from a friend, Roger Roger sends us another question and I love this.

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I'll read it in part.

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He says, I have a question that I've been struggling with for some time.

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I was wondering if I could consider or if you would consider my question to answer on the podcast.

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And so here's the question.

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He says, I'm hearing a lot lately, Dave, within the church of Jesus Christ about how we are to develop a personal relationship with Jesus.

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Christ.

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I've struggled not knowing really what that even means and how to do this.

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Section 93 of the Doctrine and Covenants mentions that we worship the Father.

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Jesus taught that we pray to the Father.

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He says, I guess what makes me really wonder is, you know, that talk that was written by Bruce Armaconkey that he gave at BYU many years ago.

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I know that that talks been around a long time.

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We struggled with it.

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Yeah, I think 1980 or 1981.

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Yeah, I struggled with it on my mission in 1983.

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So that's right.

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Well, I just want to respond briefly to this and say thank you for the for your concern.

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And I think about it a lot as well.

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But Elder Maconkey was he was addressing in that talk a specific concern about a specific book about a specific teacher who I love, by the way, that was teaching at BYU.

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His name is not important in the books, not important, but but he was addressing what he saw as a problem.

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And I remember my sweetheart, Chris, took his class actually a religion class at BYU and she was troubled by it.

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She said that when Elder Maconkey gave that talk, she was just like, hallelujah.

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Thank you so much because what what the teacher, not intentionally, but what the teacher, the message, the teacher was sending.

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Was that you have to have this special and put quotations around that and italics and you have to have this special relationship with Jesus.

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And it was it just came across as you got it's just going beyond the mark true, truer than true, better, better than most.

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And it was just it was it was and then in the book that he wrote, it got to a point where he was saying that we prayed through Jesus.

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That part of our relationship was Jesus was that we prayed through Jesus.

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Well, that's what said Elder Maconkey off was that we don't pray through Jesus.

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We pray in the name of Jesus and we worship the Father in the name of Jesus, but we don't go through Jesus to address the Father.

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We don't go through Jesus to pray.

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The name is important.

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We've been commanded to pray in the name and we only address Jesus in our prayers if he's present, right?

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Third Nephi, Third Nephi chapter 19.

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Anyway, Scott, so Elder Maconkey is addressing a specific concern and problem.

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And it's true that we shouldn't favor one relationship over a member of the Godhead.

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That was his point was that we need to have a special relationship with the Father and with the son and with the Holy Ghost.

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In fact, he says if you're going to air in having a relationship with any one of the three members of the Godhead, you probably should air in having a special relationship.

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With the Holy Ghost.

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That's the Holy Ghost who testifies of the Father and the Son and it's through the Holy Ghost that we receive revelation in our witness and our testimony.

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And anyway, I think it's a it's an amazing talk and recommended to all of our readers to look it up and to read it.

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But that was his concern.

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And I've been thrilled actually the way that it's being taught now in the church by President Nelson and others is that we need to improve our relationship with Jesus Christ.

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And we do and we need to improve our relationship with the Father and we do.

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And it all comes and with the Holy Ghost.

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It all comes down to relationships.

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Scott, all the ordinances, all of the covenants, all of the gospel, it all comes down to a relationship.

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I mean, Jesus taught that we needed a relationship with the Father, but he also taught it we need a relationship with him.

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One thing is needful.

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Look unto me and every thought.

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I mean, we have so many witnesses of the Savior himself and of the Father to go do what my son has done.

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And anyway, thank you so much, Roger, for the for the question and the concern.

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But you kind of have to think of Eleanor MacConkey's talk in the context in which it was given.

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For those of you who have other questions or would like to make comments, you can reach us at he redeems us at gmail.com.

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Well, thanks for your response to that, Dave.

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I know Roger probably appreciated.

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I know I do too.

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And both Roger and Mitch, thank you so much and Carrie for your emails this week.

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We appreciate it very much.

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All right, Dave, let's get going.

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Here we are.

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We're well, we talked last week about what the importance of repentance.

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Yeah, we teach nothing but repentance.

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Right.

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If you're not repenting, you're not a member of Christ Church, Dr. and Covenants section 10.

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The whole definition of church is if you're repenting or not.

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It's not.

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It's not about being sinless.

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It's about whether you're repenting or not.

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That's the definition of who's a member of Christ Church is if they're repenting.

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I love that scripture.

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And towards the end of doctrine, Covenants section 10.

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Anyway, we talked all about that, but then we've talked about what repentance is not Scott.

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It's not a penalty.

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It's not a punishment.

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It's not a payment of sin.

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It's not a checklist.

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It's not a change, just a change of behavior.

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It's not what saves us.

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There's no power in repentance.

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The power is through faith in Jesus Christ.

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That's the power upon which repentance works is through faith in Jesus Christ and in his name.

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It's not an institutional event.

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It's not through the church.

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Repentance is going to the Father and receiving through Jesus Christ and his Atonement, mercy and grace.

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Anyway, so we've talked a lot about what it's not.

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And now we're going to get into really spend probably several podcasts on talking about what it is.

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And first and foremost, Scott, it's a process.

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It is not a series of steps.

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It's not a checklist.

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Now, it's okay if people want to see it that way.

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But I think in all the years I taught it to thousands of students.

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I think it's just healthier to see it as a process.

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Sometimes people when they see a checklist, they won't, they can't go to number four until they've checked off number one or two.

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And that's just not the way it works because the process is different, Scott, really, for everybody.

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I think there's essential elements in the process of repentance for everybody.

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But the order or the experience of repentance is different for every individual.

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I know that's true for repentance and the spiritual side of things.

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And it's probably true for the addiction side of things, too, right?

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Yeah, it is 100%.

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You know, the problem that I have personally seen and when I say personally, I really do mean this personally with having a checklist is, you know, once the checklist is complete, does that mean repentance is done?

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And it may or may not, depending on how that process has been for us because the checklist in and of itself carries no power.

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Exactly.

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And you can't believe how many students express that to me.

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They had gone through the checklist.

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Check, check, check, check.

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Done.

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Three hours, four hours, five hours, six hours, seven hours, as many as eight hours.

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I think that's the most hours I heard.

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And they went through it and then they said, and I still don't feel forgiven.

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And they thought the problem was just them, that they had to forgive themselves.

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I guess I just got to forgive myself.

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That's, there's just no power in that unless the Savior is the center of it.

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Unless you see this as a process and then it's through that through the father, the son and the Holy Ghost and the deities involved in this process.

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But wow, just a checklist.

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I guess it sure makes some people feel better when they confess their sins to their bishop and then they can go home and check it off a list.

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But really, that's not repentance.

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And there may not be any power in that that lasts more than a few hours or a few days.

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I don't know.

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I'm not saying it's, that's not an important part of the process.

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I just think it's really helpful for people to see it as a process.

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It's also Scott a choice.

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It's not something that God is ever going to force on us here or in the eternities.

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It has to be a personal choice.

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If it's not, it's not repentance.

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You know people that have been compelled to hit rock bottom.

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I know people that have been compelled in the church to hit kind of a spiritual rock bottom.

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That doesn't force them into repentance.

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Sometimes I think they become hardened almost when they're in that situation.

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It has to be a personal choice.

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Repentance is something of an emotional thing.

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It's not just something that you do.

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It's something of an attitude, the attitude of repentance.

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President Nelson keeps teaching us that it's a daily thing and it's an attitude which we should be living with continually in our lives, which is awesome.

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It's a way of being.

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It's a condition of the heart which we'll talk a little bit more about today.

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It's an alignment with him.

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It is a complete dependence on the merits of Christ.

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I think the essence of it, the simplicity of it Scott, is to just see it as turning my back on the sin, turning away from the sin,

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and turning towards Christ and seeing Christ in the garden on the cross,

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and moving towards our Savior, seeing Him with His hands outstretched steel,

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seeing the marks of the prince and the nails in His hands,

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and going and feeling and seeing all of that, Scott, and having that perspective is, I think, what repentance is really all about.

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So if we see it as a process, then you see it as a, I think there's certain elements,

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I call them essential elements in the process of repentance.

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And we've done a lot of groundwork to kind of lay the foundations.

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That's the first element is the foundations.

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And please don't see these again as a checklist or as steps.

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This is just a process, elements in a process.

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We've talked a lot about the foundations of repentance, which include the doctrinal understanding of the plan of redemption,

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who we are, our identity, our relationship with our Heavenly Father, sons and daughters of God.

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Other parts of the foundations of repentance include faith in the Lord Jesus Christ's Atonement,

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to really understand, I think, the Atonement, to understand that Jesus not only suffered for our sins,

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but He suffered because of our sins, that we caused Him some of His suffering because of our sins.

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To understand all of that, Scott, and that kind of will lead us into a broken heart and contrite spirit here in a moment.

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But these are the foundations of repentance, as well as understanding what repentance is and what it's not,

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which we've just talked about.

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And also, and this was so important to Elder Anderson when I was working with him on his book,

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The Divine Gift of Repentance, Scott, he kept bringing this up.

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And the reason he did is because he's had personal experiences with this as a general authority for many years,

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as a priesthood leader, and as a, just as a dad, in his own family, extended family and otherwise.

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Anyway, Elder Anderson wanted to make sure there was a special chapter in his book on honesty.

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That is part of the foundations, I think, that has to be present to really, to really repent.

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So, the complete and uncompromising honesty is one of the points or elements of the foundations of repentance.

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So, if the foundations are there, then we can move into the conditions of repentance, another essential element,

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into the actions of repentance.

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We'll talk about those, break those down in more detail.

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The fourth is the manifestations of repentance.

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So, one, the foundations, two, the conditions, three, the actions, and four, the manifestations of repentance.

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That's how I have chosen to teach it.

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That's kind of the way it's outlined in Elder Anderson's book, is that all of those things must be touched, covered.

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And the process may be different, but all of those four elements must be present to really, I think, complete the process.

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In whatever order they come or in whatever way they're done, that's kind of the way I think, that's the way I see it.

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I think that's the way it's pretty well described throughout the Scriptures, is it's a process, but these are the essential elements of it.

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A couple minutes ago you said something about, you like to see repentance as us turning our back on sin, or anything like that.

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Turning away from it.

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Turning away from it and facing the Savior.

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You know, and so often, and I don't want to deemphasize in any way the importance of repentance in terms of covering our sins.

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We talk about the Atonement of Jesus Christ, though, and how the effects of the Atonement of Jesus Christ offset or potentially have the ability to, the power that comes from Christ through His Atonement,

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potentially has the ability to offset or to negate or equalize or make better so many of our other challenges.

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You know, we've talked about the three blessings and powers that come.

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So we can also say, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this is accurate, so we can also say that in order to better access those other blessings, the compensatory blessings,

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and the strengthening or enabling blessings, along with the redeeming blessings, or the forgiveness of sins, I like to see that us accessing those blessings also through this same process.

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Yeah, I just think that's such a great point. Thanks, Scott, for bringing that up. You know, repentance is not a bad thing.

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Repentance is a positive thing, and we should be continually repenting.

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And even if someone has sinned against us and we are completely innocent, the process of coming unto Christ and turning our back not on the sins that we've committed, but on the sins that have been committed against us.

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And sinning altogether.

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Yes. Okay, yeah, we got to talk about that in a minute.

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But I think we should see repentance as just the opportunity to move towards the Savior and to have a...

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And that's really all it is.

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...have a relationship and to be able to access the power of Christ through His Atonement.

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And His fullness.

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Whether we've sinned or whether we've been sinned against.

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Correct.

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And it's even true, Scott, of the one of the final essential elements of repentance, which we'll talk about maybe four or five podcasts from now, is the gift.

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And I see it as a gift, not as something I just will on myself or not something I just forced myself to do, but the gift of being able to forgive ourselves and others.

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Yeah.

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And that's the actual, maybe the... again, the order is different for everybody.

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But that's how I see it as the final outcome, is that we're able to forgive ourselves and others.

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That in and of itself is a gift.

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And it only is possible by turning our back on perhaps the offense that we've received, the hurt that others have caused us, the pains, emotionally, physically, spiritually, all of the pain that we've suffered.

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We all feel living in a hellish, t-lessual world and focusing on the Savior.

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So repentance is not just to cover our sins, but to help us to receive the healing power of Jesus Christ and His Atonement to help us to receive the compensatory blessings, the enabling strengthening blessings, and as well as the redemptive blessings.

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So thank you so much, Scott.

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And let me just touch on that one point because I believe that this was after all the classes I taught, I would usually start actually with this slide, that you have to see repentance as... these are my words.

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Stop repenting of asin and start to repent of sinning. Stop repenting of asin and start to repent of sinning.

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That's how you should see repentance. You shouldn't see it as something that we just do piecemeal. Like I'm going to repent from this thing and yet I'm committing all these other sins on the other hand.

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That's not repentance. Repentance is a change of nature, a change of heart. Repentance is giving our whole soul to God, facing Christ, moving all of us, moving, I mean all of my being, moving in His direction, not just physically but emotionally and spiritually.

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So I think the number... I used to call it the number one stumbling block to repentance is that people think they have to repent of asin.

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And I think the holier, more sacred way of repenting is to see the process as to repent of sinning.

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So please stop if you're just trying to repent of asin and start to repent of sinning and seek to become more holy.

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When it comes to repentance, Dave, I think I've done every single thing wrong that you could possibly do.

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We all have, Scott. We all have.

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When you talked a few minutes ago about we see repentance, you said repentance is not a bad thing. And I know what you mean by that because so many of us, and when I say us, I mean me too.

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Or negative. Maybe negative is better for you.

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Well, yeah, and that's what I was going to point out. A bad thing in terms of it's not comfortable for me to go through. It's hard for me to go through.

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It's embarrassing. It's humiliating. It's in all of those other negative accusatory things that come to us from the accuser, right?

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But it took me a long time and I see it different today.

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And I've seen it this way for a couple of decades now. But it took me a while to figure out that repentance was not an indictment on me being a piece of garbage.

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Repentance was an invitation.

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Not an indictment, but an invitation.

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It was an invitation for me.

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I love that, Scott. I've courted you on that.

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It was an invitation for me to come to him and to be relieved of all of the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve.

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Top among them at the point in my life, sinning.

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Amen.

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But not only sinning, but top among them sinning. And once I was able to see that, David, as an invitation to come to him, the most loving being that I could even comprehend, the most understanding, the most everything.

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You know, I go to Alma 7 and I know that he suffered for my iniquities. All of them. Not just my sins. All of them. So that he would know how to sucker me in the flesh.

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I know that there's some of us who are listening who have probably still currently sharing this notion that, hey, repentance is a way for you to overcome your indictment.

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Yeah.

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I just hope that through the love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that we can fill his invitation.

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Amen. Amen. That's how we should see repentance. It's an invitation, him beckoning us with his arms outstretched still.

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Prince of the Nils and his hands in his feet.

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With arms of mercy.

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Right.

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With love, with love in his heart, he's not mad at us, you know, going back to that girl I gave a patriarchal blessing so many years ago.

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And knowing that I had to tell her, God has never been mad at you. Now, I know, I know, I believe in the wrath of God.

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I know that God has wrath and it's divine and it's holy and that he has to discipline his children and sometimes he has to start over.

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And we have lots of examples of that in the scriptures and all of us may have some personal examples of that where God has had to discipline us and chastise us.

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And we should, we should see that as a blessing. We should see all of that as a gift because he doesn't do anything out of anger.

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He doesn't do anything out of love. You call it what you want, but he, everything that he does, right? Second, he fight 26. Everything that he does is for the benefit of the world because he loves the world.

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Right. And in fact, I think the greatest demonstration of his love for us is his law.

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Yeah. Yeah. And maybe his chastisement.

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Which is part of the law.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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We should see him as a God of love and a God of laws and we can't separate those. Those are inextricably linked together.

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Right.

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His laws and his love.

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So let's talk, Scott. Again, foundations, conditions, actions and manifestations of repentance. That's the process.

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Let's talk about today, maybe the conditions of repentance.

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That's, that's a phrase in the Book of Mormon that appears, I think, five times the O.L. I think four, maybe in the Book of Mormon, one in the Doctrine and Covenants, that we must meet the conditions of repentance.

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Maybe just a few verses on that.

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Helaman five verse 11, which precedes some of our favorite, probably our many of our listeners favorite scripture is Helaman five 12. Remember, remember that it's upon the rock of our Redeemer that you must build your foundation.

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I love that verse two.

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But Helaman five 11.

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You want to read that, Scott?

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Yeah, I love this.

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And I will be reading this tonight at our Institute class, actually.

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And he has power given unto him from the father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance.

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Therefore, he has sent his angels to declare the tidings of the conditions of repentance, which bringeth unto the power of the Redeemer unto the salvation of their souls.

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Well, there's a lot of doctrine actually in that verse, Scott. In fact, I thought about Roger and his question.

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The father hath given the son power to redeem us from our sins.

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So again, the relationship between the father, the son and our relationship with the father, the son and the Holy Ghost.

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It's it all, you know, we need a relationship with all three and they all have different roles and we need a relationship with all three to from each of the roles that they have been given to administer into our lives.

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But let's focus on this, that the Savior has power given to him by the father to redeem us from our sins, not in our sins, not in our sins from our sins, because of repentance.

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Therefore, angels have declared the tidings of the conditions of repentance.

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So what are the conditions of repentance and maybe just one more verse on this, Scott, one more verse on this is every missionary that's been a district or is on leader and had to conduct a a baptismal interview.

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I think should know this passage in Dr. and come in section 20 verse 37.

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And we'll kind of use this as maybe a jumping point. So this is, I think I don't preach my gospel as I have understood, preach my gospel.

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You almost have to read this verse to the individuals and see if they meet the criteria given in this verse verse 37, whether they're qualified to be baptized or not, which is kind of the essence or the culmination of their repentance.

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So let's let's read what what has to happen before one can be baptized into the church, especially convert baptisms again by way of commandment is section 20 verse 37 again by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism.

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All those who one, humble themselves before God to and desire to be baptized three and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits and four witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins and five are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ and six having to having a determination to

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serve him to the end and seven truly manifest by their works that they have received the spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins shall be received by baptism into his church.

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Those are the seven qualifications to be baptized and participate in the sacred ordinance of baptism. But I love the first part of this which I believe describe the conditions of repentance that they are humble.

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They've humbled themselves.

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And that may be hopefully by the word, right, not being compelled, Scott.

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They haven't been compelled. Hopefully. Now if they've been compelled, that's great. Right. We talked about a lot about that in Alma 37 or sorry, Alma 32. It's in Alma 32. The great chapter on faith that it's better to humble yourselves because humility precedes faith is better to humble yourselves because of the word and they have to be compelled to be humble.

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But humility is the first one mentioned here by the Lord and second desire. You got to have desire and you know what is the beginning of desires got right gratitude for Jesus Christ and his atonement right gratitude and for Jesus Christ and his so brings the desire and then three a broken heart and

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contrite spirit. I believe those are the conditions of repentance. In short, humility, gratitude and desire and a broken heart and contrite spirit. So let's we'll talk maybe a little bit more about that on the church and spiritual side, Scott, but for those who are struggling with addictions.

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And to some degree, we all have those but but why don't you describe from the addiction recovery programs how that looks, the when someone meets the conditions of repentance. Yeah, so these conditions conditions of repentance and you know and so I'm just going to use the word change.

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So these conditions of change because that's what we're seeking after when obviously there's plenty of repentance in terms of sin forgiveness that's required. You're right when somebody goes through the process of recovery from any kind of chemical substance from any kind of behavioral disorder,

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whether that be, you know, cutters or bulimics or, you know, so many others, right. And there's behavioral and there's, there's chemical addictions and there's all these other things but they all have common thread right and all of the common thread behind all of these is a is a very profound separation from God from anything

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that's spiritual. I think elder Oaks actually used that definition as the definition for addiction before when he said that addiction simply a separation from your relationship with God.

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And that's true with all addicts and alcoholics regardless of their known relationship with God and I very carefully chose that word known relationship because everybody has a relationship with God, deity, higher power, whatever a person chooses to call it.

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And even if it's like I don't believe well that's a relationship.

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Your relationship is one of disbelief or unbelief and that's okay to a degree so when we talk about that change when that change is precipitated in a life of somebody who's addicted or an alcoholic or drug addict alcoholism is my story.

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We go through the same process right we still have to go through the humility process we still have to go through all of the things that we just talked about.

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But they show up maybe a little bit differently and in recovery and alcoholics anonymous, not specifically this is actually true for all I was going to say specifically and alcoholics anonymous and that's just not true.

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It's true for all recovery programs that there's this phenomenon that we often return refer to as rock bottom rock bottom simply means I've had enough.

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And rock bottom can be a place of capitulation, a place of change a place of pivot, where we turn from what was and turn to the hope of what is or what can be.

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And that'll come so many different ways you know, and this isn't just true for alcoholics or addicts.

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We all have the ability to make a choice and to see things in our lives is as out of line as uncomfortable as creating discomfort and havoc and so many other things and we can see those things as being a problem well.

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And they are and when we see that we get to make a choice and we can we can either be compelled to make that choice. Many of us are arrested put into jail face divorces face suicidal tendencies to the point where we don't family friends we can get out of it.

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Yeah, exactly lost relationships.

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And it's about as ugly as it can humanly get from a spiritual death and actually from a physical death standpoint as well both the effects of the fall are alive and well in addicts and alcoholics well in order for that change to happen.

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There really must needs be a rock bottom a rock bottom or a broken heart and a contrary spirit which follows a certain social emotional spiritual condition.

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And that and that condition can be presented to us by way of many of the things I just said right broken relationships, lost work lost jobs, legal problems financial problems all because of decisions that we've made well that's not that much different than the

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sense that we commit in regular life. They all have consequences those consequences bring with them a dish a disruption in our continuity of spiritual connection with our heavenly father with the spirit of any kind and when that happens then we are left at a rock bottom

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Well that rock bottom is and I've explained it this way I began seeing it this way, maybe 15 years ago, but rock bottom is not a place as a choice. I know people who's rock you would look at. I have been in some really ugly scary places and I have been with people where it's like if this isn't rock bottom

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I don't know what is yet they continue to dig for a deeper rock bottom and sometimes people just don't make it the end of passing away you know whether through an overdose or suicide or whatever because of that.

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Death can be a pretty tough rock bottom.

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One that's really difficult to repent back from to write at least in this life. And so when we talk about our seeing ourselves in our own nothingness right as natural man as King Benjamin teaches us right there you go if we can see ourselves in our own nothingness and know that through our

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own power and that's the other problem the alcoholic and addict often does is we often take on the role of God in our own lives we try to control everything in our own lives and we do that for a couple of reasons one as we see ourselves as being indicted by him

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because of the choices that we've made that we see is out of alignment and then the accuser afraid of him especially may be afraid of him and then the accuser has the ability he gets the stage now to come in and in full of accusations tell us what a pile of garbage we are and how inadequate we are and how we will never be able to return well

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Or what about even humanize us to the fact that hey you can do this on your own you don't need any help you. Hey come on buck up here you be a man you can do this on your own you don't need any help divine or human or otherwise.

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And I'm glad you brought that up because that sometimes is more prevalent and it will depend on the personality of the person that we that you know is coming in but that's how it was for me you know that was you just described me my rock bottom came I was arrested in 1987 in San Diego California

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and it was ugly well that could have been my rock bottom David that was 1987 but it wasn't I got sober in 1998. Oh wow yeah so I just kept digging and digging and digging 11 years yeah.

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Yeah and I even remember you know and I've and I've shared this you can it's on the Internet this this part of my story I even remember after I was arrested coming away from there.

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Well while I was sitting in there making a deal with God you get me out of this one God and I'll go back to church and I'll do all this you know all the things I wasn't doing I made a deal.

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Well I got away. By the way repentance is not about making any deals. That's right.

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But as I walked away I remember distinctly as I got into my car to drive away because I was able to make a deal and a few things I remember thinking I'm sure glad I got myself out of that one now I don't have to keep my promise to God.

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There you go. Yeah. Yeah. How quick you forgot.

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It was pretty it was pretty emblematic. I mean as soon as you get out the deals off.

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You know and I think that my fingers may have been crossed behind my back even when I was making sure.

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So anyway the bottom line is this in order for repentance or change to take place that there's a miss out of necessity.

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We have to really be able to see why that's important. Why the change is necessary in our lives and that's all that's really required once we come to a full grasp and a full knowledge of OK why is it important that this change takes place in my life.

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Why is that important. And once we come to a full understanding of why that's important then rock bottom really is just a decision. It doesn't have to be handcuffs. It doesn't have to be a casket.

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It doesn't have to be homelessness. It doesn't have to be all of these other ugly things that we often think about. Well can sit. Consider the degrees of rock bottom here for one person.

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It may be they lose the spirit. That's a rock bottom and immediately they recognize it and they turn back to the Lord and they begin to repent. Right.

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Another person may lose the spirit and then lose their marriage and it takes that both of those before they. And then another individual may lose their spirit.

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I think that probably always comes first. They lose the spirit. Then they lose their marriage and now they lose their freedom because they're sitting in jail in penitentiary. Right.

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Whatever. I'm just saying that for certain individuals a rock bottom isn't again how deep you go. It's at what point at what point in your life do you recognize that's not where you want to be.

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Right. And how intense is the feeling. How intense. Are you feeling it right now. So you know for example I know people and you do too in our family who they lose the spirit and that's rock bottom for them.

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Yeah. Because why. Right. That would be Nephi. Yeah. Nephi. I'm sure he sinned. I'm sure Nephi wasn't sinless. Yeah. But I'm sure as soon as he felt that. Yeah. He was on his knees. Yeah.

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Oh wretched man that I oh wretched man that I am. Right. Yeah. Well and but for layman and Lemuel Scott it was different. They were past feeling. Right. They had lost the Holy Ghost. They didn't really care which made them past feeling.

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And then they ended up losing all their family Nephi and all of them had to had to leave and get away from them. I mean they lost it. They lost everything. What do you think the big difference there between those two were.

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Well it describes it. You know I think second or first Nephi is it chapter two kind of describes it because they did not know the dealings of their God. That's right. Their faith was lacking.

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He did not know the feelings of their God and second Nephi to our first Nephi sorry first Nephi to I think it's first 16 isn't it described Nephi. We should just review that. I think everybody knows this. But but I love this first.

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I think it's first Nephi to 16 Scott this describes Nephi's attitude his choice his heart. This is why for him rock bottom would just be simply to offend the spirit and lose the spirit because this describes him first Nephi chapter two verse 16.

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And it came to pass that I Nephi being exceedingly young nevertheless less being large in stature and also having great desire to know the mysteries of God. Wherefore I did cry unto the Lord and behold he did visit me and soften my heart.

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And I did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father wherefore I did not rebel against him like unto my brothers. And that's exactly my point right. So this is something this this this ability so how do I move from a hardened and I got to be careful about

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hard and hard because I'm I know I'm describing an attitude but I don't I'm not describing intent. OK. I don't think we are sometimes intentional about this hard and hard. I just feel like that sometimes that because of the conditions because of the the consequences of our decisions our heart has become this way.

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And because of that hard and hard. You know for example a person that says oh my goodness I'm not feeling the spirit today that's rock bottom for them. They have moved into that as they have ascended. Remember how we talked about how we ascend in faith and we move from one level of faith.

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You always see it as degrees from faith to faith in Jesus Christ to faith in his levels and degrees faith unto repentance. I believe that I send or descend and I and that's how we see our ability to accept or reject.

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This invitation or to see it as an indictment whichever we choose. And I believe that to the reason that Nephi had that experience. It says it right there because he did believe all the words which had been spoken by my father and I did not rebel against him.

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He believed. So he the word. Yeah. The word is what humbled him. That's right. But for lame and lameal over and over and over again angels all the they had to be compelled to be humble.

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Over and over and over again. And it just wasn't as effective. And Dave I think that's my point. I think my point there is because people have asked me all the time. So what's the difference between rock bottoms then.

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You know and you know we spend a little bit of time on this but I think it's important. So what's the difference between rock bottoms. Well the difference between your rock bottom is what your relationship with your higher power.

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Yeah. What's your relationship with Heavenly Father. And if you don't have one and that's often the case. And that's why so often that we see so so many what I would call and if I'm calling him that then they are because I've seen it ugly ugly ugly rock bottoms

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because there's just been an absolute devoid of the spirit of Heavenly Father in their lives. Well so our point is one has to meet the conditions of repentance to really fulfill the process of repentance and they may they may not fulfill the

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conditions of repentance and maybe until near the end of their repentance. For example Scott in the in the church from a church perspective here. I've known of individuals who started with the actions of repentance.

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They go into their bishop to confess their sin which I think is actions and manifestations of repentance. They go into confess their sin to their bishop and it's maybe really a serious sin. Terrible thing that they've done.

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They've been disloyal. They've they've broken their covenants. There has to be a call to a stake president. There needs to be because of certain serious sins. There are sins that require a membership council. And so there's a membership council.

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And I've sat in I don't know dozens if not over a hundred membership councils and in those memberships councils there. Those are great councils of love but man there's some pretty hard hard things that sometimes come out of those those councils Scott and I've been in some

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councils where the spirit was so strong as we know as a stake presidency confirming in our minds and hearts that that person needed to lose their membership in the church that a loss of membership needed to take place.

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And if it didn't that person would not reach rock bottom. Now rock bottom is not a word that went through our mind when we made a choice. No but that they simply would not be able to progress. They would never be able to forgive themselves.

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And less they lost their membership in the church. It would that's what it took for them to get that to get them to drop their shovel and stop digging the hole and that they had to start there in order to repent in order to really make the progress that they needed to make

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and the change that they needed to make. So I'm just I use that as an example that there's no real order checklist or steps that happens in repentance. It is a process and it is different. The spectrum the spectrum for every individual is different Scott.

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But God's in control. And I know that and I know if if any of us have an ounce of desire an ounce of humility an ounce of gratitude if if we can just begin to believe and with something of a broken heart and contrite spirit that we can obtain that.

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But I think maybe just let's spend some time on this question. It's one thing to know what the conditions are Scott. It's another thing to answer the question. Well how how can I do that. For example, let me share this story. This is an Elder Anderson's

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book. I was a branch president missionary training center and I had this missionary who came in and he started to confess his sins and and he said well let's just make this short. I've done everything.

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And I said OK Elder what does that mean everything. Everything I've done everything. I'm in moral. I've abused drugs. I've done everything. You know there was no broken heart. There was no contrite spirit. He was just going through the process.

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Not the process. He was going through the steps and the checklist of repentance. And anyway he confessed and I I said well and you never you've never worked this out with with your bishop or the state president or or the Lord. No I'm

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confessing to you. And I said well do you have a temple recommend. Yes. Well give me your temple recommend because you should have never gone through the temple elder. And I can tell you right now you're going to go home. This interview lasted for maybe an hour.

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I'm going to go home and I'm going to go home and I'm going to go to my doctor and I'm going to send me a real letter. I'm going to send you a letter and I'm going to send me a really brief about this because he confessed some of his sins to me in some detail.

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And he said whatever they send me home I want to go on a mission. I quit my job to go on a mission. He said his big sacrifice was he quit his job. I don't know. I'm sure he gave up his sins but he but he but he quit his job.

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I went over there Monday to do an extra exit interview because Salt Lake and confirmed that they needed to send him home and I'd call the state president and his bishop and parents and everything and anyway so

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I went home I went over to do an exit interview and he shows up in Levi's golf shirt and got it got his ear ring back in his ear and I said oh elder you know I was I was a little angry I got it man the I send you know but because I was just a little upset about that and I said elder you are never you are

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never going to be able to come back here to the MTC do you even want to come back here to the MTC. I don't know he said I don't know we'll see. I said well can I just can I give you some counsel. You can never come back here ever until you have a broken heart and

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you don't have it and then he this was profound this was a profound experience for me. He said well president tell me just tell me how can I break my own heart.

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Well I thought that was profound. I it. Wow I felt the spirit to and I felt the spirit tell me what I should say as a branch president and I told him you will never ever be able to have a broken heart and

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you'll never be able to have a broken heart and you'll never be able to have a broken heart and then you'll come back here again you don't have it.

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has for you. Then you will have a broken heart and

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contrite spirit and then you'll be able to repent and

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you'll come back. Well, it took him months. Like I called

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him almost every Sunday. He lived back in the Midwest. I

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remember and I called him every Sunday and man, he he

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became humble and he be his heart was broken and his

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spirit contrite Scott and it and mostly it came from

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reading the scriptures. It was it was the book of Mormon

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just just drove him to repentance. Just it broke his

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heart and he became so contrite and so repented and it

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was so sweet and when he came back, he was changed. His

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countenance was changed. Everything about him was

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different. He walked different. He talked different. It

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was it was really one of the great great miracles but so

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the the question that we need to answer before we go is how

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can I break my own heart? How can I have a broken heart and

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contrite spirit and just my brief answer to that is by the

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power of the word. Yeah. And the word is Jesus Christ. It's

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not just the scriptures. The word is Jesus Christ and it's

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to go to get somebody and to see him kneeling laid out

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prostate on the ground laid out crying to God my you know

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if there be any other way bleeding from every poor

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bruised broken for me not just for me but because of me

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God because of me and then to see him on the cross that

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well the scourging and everything in between is all

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part of the atonement to be scourged and then to carry

440
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the cross and nailed on the cross and we just celebrated

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Easter a few weeks ago but to see all of that and to hear

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him cry out at 12 noon on Good Friday my God my God why

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has thou forsaken me and for Gethsemane to reoccur

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intensified on the cross for three more hours not just

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be not just for me Scott because of me when I understand

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that when I feel that my heart is broken and my spirit

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contrite and the conditions of repentance have been met

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and when that happens repentance is never easy but

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it's so simple when our hearts are broken and our spirits

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contrite those are the conditions of repentance and

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that's one of the really essential elements of the process

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we invite all of our listeners to be able to

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consider where they're at in meeting those conditions

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I think this is an important invitation for us too is to consider how do we

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respond to the invitation to come on the hymn do we respond

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through a repentant attitude do we respond with pride do we

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respond with neglect or do we just not respond and I think

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that the invitation to come on to me we're able to

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facilitate that and participate that participate in that rather

460
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through this repentance process I'm so grateful I am so

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words cannot express the amount of gratitude I have because of repentance

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because it's through repentance that I have been able to

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regain a relationship with my heavenly father

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20 something years ago that has just meant

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more to me than literally anything else and Scott

466
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gratitude being the beginning of desire

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right now what you're feeling right yeah you want to repent more

468
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absolutely and that's the helix right that brings us you want to repent more

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closer and closer to him and that's why that's why we should be repenting

470
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every day because we're so grateful for his mercy and grace which

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which causes us to want to repent even more and to stop repenting of just

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a sin and to start to repent of sinning I really look forward to the

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next several episodes as we go through this process and I hope you do too

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thanks for being with us today we appreciate you're listening we also

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appreciate your your your words of encouragement and questions so don't

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hesitate to continue to send those to us as well

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look forward to being with you next week until then be well