Hey there everybody. So either technology gremlins got a hold of my computer or somebody forgot
to plug in the sound board when we were recording last week, more likely the latter than the
former. So I think I'm going to owe Uncle Dave a big bottle of peanut M&Ms. We'll have
to re-record that. So watch for that to come out in two weeks. Good news is, and this is
going to be a fortunate mistake, a fortunate set of circumstances for you all. Many of you
have not yet had the opportunity to hear when we did the interview with my sweetheart, Debra
Durfee. We will replay that today in lieu of our regularly scheduled event. This will
become as a pre-recorded. So hey, thanks for understanding and you're welcome. I think that
you'll really, really enjoy this. Let us know your thoughts. He redeems us at gmail.com.
We've got a great podcast in store, I think today. Real treat. I'll get to that in just a
minute before we do. I just want to thank everybody for your emails. We've received a
lot of great questions and some experiences while we've received a couple of wonderful
experiences that have been shared with us, experiences of hope, experiences of crying
out, experiences of tying into the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His
atonement in ways that have made monumental changes and even some small important changes
in life. So we're grateful for those. I want to introduce somebody who's super important to me.
She's very important to David as well, but I'm going to get emotional, so I'm going to have to
not look at you, Deb. I want to introduce our guest today, somebody who's extremely important to me.
Dave's learned to love this person over the years as well as she's become a member actually of our
family. My wife, Debra Durfey, she'll be with us today. A wonderful story. Say hi, Deb.
Hello, everyone. It's so good to have you here. So Deb and I, I'll just do a quick little
introduction about Deb, kind of give a little background on her and then we'll get right into
some questions and let Deb talk about her story and the importance of it and how it relates to
being redeemed through the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all ways. So Deb and I
actually met in 1998 in Lehigh, Utah, and we were both, she was a leader in and kind of helped and
was super instrumental in helping develop and bring about the addiction, addiction recovery program
from the church here in Utah County. And I was attending a little bit later for reasons that
are obvious to those who have been listening for a while. For those who aren't, I'm recovering
alcoholic with 23 years and 11 months and two weeks of sobriety. I mean, you have to have a
party next month. Yeah, October 26. That's right. 24 years. 24 years. But Deb and I met just prior
to, well, just after two months after my getting sober roughly and a few years later, we ended
up married. Deb and I have had an opportunity to share both of our stories in sacrament meetings and
firesides, countless firesides and fifth Sundays and young women's camps, young men's camps,
helamans camps and those kinds of things. And it's been a wonderful experience for both of us.
As we've kind of hand in hand walked the journey of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our own life
separately and together as we've worked hard to do a little Brady Bunch thing. We have seven kids
between us. We love them all. We don't differentiate and who's who's or any of those things. They're
all our children and we now have 12 grandchildren. We love them, I think just as much as we love
our kids and maybe some days even a little bit more. So one other thing, you know, this story
that I think Deb's going to be sharing, at least parts of it today, is a story that she has personally
shared in high schools and junior highs and recovery centers, especially those specifically for women
all over the state of Utah and for over 20 years now and in fact well over 20 years now. And this
story that we're going to be talking about, especially as it relates to how it ties into the
redemption being redeemed through his blood, the blood of course of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior,
his power through the atonement. As we talk about those things today, I think that there's going to
be great relevance in all of our lives, but maybe even greater relevance in some of the lives of
those that may be finding it difficult to find hope who could be in similar situations. So
let's just start off Deb. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit
about maybe kind of lead us into where we, where you want to go with what we talk about here and
we'll just go from there. So I feel like because of the decades I've lived, I have a lot of stories.
So when you invited me to come and share my story, I was reflecting on which story I was
actually going to share. But I feel like after listening to the last few podcasts, this particular
story, which was a huge part of my life in giving me who I am and forming me the way that it was
just part of my journey of how I learned more about me and more about the atonement of Jesus
Christ. And something Deb that can bless the lives of so many others. I'm sure you're thinking
about that. Yeah, I always tell people I'm a good example of what not to be. So, um, or how to become
there you go. There's hope. What you shouldn't be. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, as I was reflecting on,
on what story I would share, I thought about one of the first really big impactful experiences that
happened in my life when I was between my junior and senior year in high school. And I was dating
a boy and they didn't have the, for the strength of youth pamphlet back in the olden days. And we
just got like pretty vague rules like don't lay down with a guy, don't stay out past midnight.
And so to try to stay on the covenant path and to stay virtuous and to be worthy. Those were the
vague rules that I heard. I'm sure there probably were many others that were getting more explain,
more explanation than I was, but those are the ones that I basically remember. And so when I was in
the dating world and I was, you know, trying to be an obedient youth. And I had an experience where
I had stayed out past midnight watching a movie with a group of people and I did the
unthinkable, laid down on the floor and watched a movie. So you broke two rules.
I broke both rules all in the same night, stayed out past midnight and, and laid down and watched
the movie with, with a guy. Long story short, I found myself being violated. And it wasn't that
night. It was the, you know, the very next day during broad daylight. I was, I was raped and
it was very traumatic to me. It was scary. I was horrified. I was devastated. I fought with every
strength in my body to stop what was going on and was not successful. And I felt completely
broken and so devastated. When I left, I went, I was returning a video, if you guys remember
back in the day of blockbuster when you're returning videos. And I remember going home,
my, my bedroom was in the basement and I wanted to curl up in a ball and literally just go to
sleep and not wake up. I was so broken and so devastated for what had happened to me.
But I felt like I had deserved that because I had broke those two rules that I was always told
not to break. I was out past midnight and I laid down with a guy I didn't. And so that,
now I understood why you don't do those things. So feeling more than a victim, you felt that you
had brought it on yourself. Oh, absolutely. You deserved it. I did. I did. I broke those rules.
And so I felt like I deserved that. I knew better than, than that because I had been told that over
and over and over. And I broke those two rules that were always told to me. Can I ask a question
real quick? Yeah. And I don't want you to lose your train of thought. I want you were going to say,
but can you kind of give us an overview of what your relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus
was like at that point? So I was raised just like Nephi with goodly parents and we went to
church every week and I, I loved primary. I loved all of the, you know, weekly church
activities we participated. We had family night every Monday night. We had family prayer every
morning. I mean, I was, I was raised in a very strong, great home. However, I did have my own
interpretation of what God was. Jesus was his helper in my, in my young mind. He was there to help
Heavenly Father. And because I have such an amazing father, it was easy for me to know that
there was a loving Heavenly Father, but I also knew that I could disappoint him if I made the
wrong choices. And I, I really honestly remember thinking that Heavenly Father's up there watching
all the good and the bad. And I remember when I was eight, when I got baptized, thinking all of
those black marks that Heavenly Father had made on his tablet of Deb are now being washed in the
waters of baptism. They're all, all those black marks are going to go away. And I remember thinking,
I can't, yeah, it was the eraser. And I remember thinking, I can't do anything wrong ever again.
Don't, don't even think about saying a bad word, thinking about thought, doing a bad deed,
whatever. I just, I just remember my slate is clean. And, and of course, I, I knew shortly
after I turned eight and into eight years and one day after being baptized, that there were some
black marks already going up there. And I just felt a little scared and intimidated by the God
as I understood him as kind of like the cop. And I remember even sometimes being outside in the
summer rain with the lightning and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, he's probably a little bit mad at somebody
right now, because I can hear some thunder. But in that innocent brain, that's what was reality to
me. I just thought, and then I remember also, I was raised with six brothers. And I remember them
saying, you know, when it rains, that means God's crying because he's, you know, I'm like, Oh,
maybe he's crying because he's upset with all the black marks they have. I mean, it's funny what we
kind of tell ourselves and what interpretation we take as what means what. How do you, how do you
think that, that view that you had of Heavenly Father at that point, how do you think that
affected your reaction to all of these things that had just happened to you? Oh, I knew he was so
mad at me. I knew he was absolutely disappointed. I knew that I had broke every rule that I had
ever been told. And I just knew he was in pure utter disappointment with me.
So what I hear you describing Deb, you say the commandments were clearly taught in your home.
Yes. But it wasn't so much, it was a gospel of commandments, dues and don'ts. And not so much
a gospel of relationships. Sounds like really maybe as a teenager, you didn't even know what
the Atonement of Jesus Christ really was about. What redemption was, what salvation was,
how can we draw closer to them? What's their character, attributes and perfections,
which is the requirements to really exercise faith in him. Those things were kind of missing in your
gospel youth upbringing. Absolutely. Everything was, was black and white. It was all about the
dues and the don'ts. And it wasn't because it probably wasn't taught, but I sure didn't hear it
or feel it. Whether it was me not listening, whether it was just the misunderstanding. And I was
telling my own story in my own head of what this all looked like. And the things that were spoken to
me and taught to me, I drew pictures myself and understood it the best way I knew how,
far as understanding God and his Son Jesus Christ. And really, I did not, I can tell you right now
in the stage of my life, I truly did not understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I had no clue,
Christ. There's no way I understood that at that time. Yeah. Okay, so you're, you're raped. How old
were you? It was the summer I turned 17. Being in a family that who emphasized keeping commandments,
how did that, how did that go? Oh, I, I was not going to tell anyone. I could not tell a single
solitary soul. I had brought this onto myself because of choices I had made. And so there was,
it was something that no one was going to know, even though deep down inside it ate at me. And I
had this secret that was just utterly painful. And I, I kept telling myself over and over,
you're, you're ruined. You're damaged. You're, you're not virtuous anymore. You're not clean.
You're not pure. You're not worthy. So all of these stories. And then as I would go to church and,
and go into the young women, you know, organization and hear, you know, what we need to do to stay
virtuous and clean. And, and I just knew all is lost. I really knew all was lost. There was no
hope for me because it was, it was already broken. How long after you were, did the, did the, your
pregnancy, was that the result? So I, it's interesting that you asked that because that's when I,
I couldn't resolve it within my own head, within my own heart. I couldn't resolve it. And so, you
know, of course I would get on my knees and say, you know, Heavenly Father, this is really
uncomfortable for me and I don't like it. Can you please remove it? And of course it didn't,
because I didn't really understand exactly how to resolve it. And so I think within,
oh, I would say within a few months, I kind of threw my hands in the air and gave up in the fact that
I had a friend that introduced me to alcohol. And when I realized that alcohol made me feel
different and I didn't feel guilt and shame and I didn't feel that story of not good enough,
that helped numb out that story I was telling myself and also the pain that went with that
guilt and shame that was so alive in me. And so then when I started drinking, then I'm
you know, reconnecting and having, getting sexually active with the same guy and stayed,
I mean, it kind of spiraled down until then I find myself pregnant. So it wasn't a one-time thing,
it was a choice. After that, it was a choice of, yeah, I like this, I'm gonna go do it this way.
And you had that point not talked to anybody about this? Oh, no, never. No. You're hiding all of that,
the drinking and everything and your parents and you hadn't talked to the bishop or? Oh, no, no.
I didn't talk to anybody about it. The only one that knew was my friend and at the time my boyfriend.
Okay. So I'm... So what happened after that? You say you got pregnant? Once that happened,
I mean, what was the next thing that happened after that? I just remember I had to go over to
the hospital to get a blood test. I don't remember if they even had home tests at that time, but I
just remember going over to the hospital and getting a blood test. And then I had to get on
my landline and call after four o'clock to find out the results. And I remember when I called the
hospital and the nurse or whatever on the other end said, results are positive. Like in such a
happy way. And I like in pure devastation hung up that phone and almost went back in the fetal
position. And I remember calling my friend and I said, I have no idea what to do. I just got a
positive test on my pregnancy. And I got to tell my mom, I got to tell my dad, this is something
you don't hide. This is something that you can't keep a secret. Now it's, now it's going to be
exposed. And so I took some time and told my mom and dad, I need to talk to him. I sat them both
down and told them. And I remember my dad saying, you know what, there's a reason we'll get through
this. And I remember, you know, just feeling okay. I know I devastated them. I know they were just
like jaw dropped. And like, what are we going to do? I remember the visualization. I remember feeling
like I was in a deep pit that with no ladder, I just remember thinking, how am I ever going to get
out of this? How am I ever going to find peace in my life ever again? How am I going to find
like any kind of joy or happiness? This is utter devastation and despair. And I remember
looking at my mom thinking, I just want your joy. I just want to fill your joy and happiness again.
And if I could just get out of this hole, but I remember feeling absolute hopeless and helpless
and broken with with no tools to get out of this, this whole damaged goods. Oh, so damaged, so
damaged goods. Was there any part of a repentance process that began to be in place at this point
for you? I mean, did you talk to your priesthood leaders? Did you? So of course, I know that I
know, you know, you go talk to the bishop when when these kinds of things happen. And at this time,
I'm a senior in high school. And I'm attending seminary. I'm in my fourth year of seminary. I
was probably serving in the Laurel presidency at the time. I'm very active in church still. And
your dad had been a bishop. Yeah, when I was younger, he was like maybe eight or something.
But now I'm I'm 17. Of course, I make an appointment with the bishop. And at that point in my life,
and I'm learning this as I'm older now, listening to the to what repentance is and what repentance
isn't. Well, as a matter of fact, you and I teach that repentance and forgiveness
institute class at BYU for BYU and UVU students. And you're very impactful there. So yeah, yeah,
yeah, it's a different perspective today. Right, right. And I had read the miracle of forgiveness.
And now reading the divine gift of forgiveness has definitely, yes, has definitely changed my
interpretation and understanding more fully, thank goodness, and more holy. So you went to the bishop.
So I made an appointment, go into the bishop, and I basically say so I've been involved in some
things that I'm not really happy about, and I'm pregnant. And at this time, I'm sure I can clearly
tell you my bishop was absolute shocked, because his the look on his face, and then he dropped his
head into his both of his hands and just kept shaking his head no. And just in absolute utter,
like, Oh my gosh. And he just kept saying, Oh, Deb, Oh, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. I can't
believe this. And he kept shaking his head no. And I just sat there watching him with
like eyes of like, Oh, can I just run out of this room right now? Can I just like exit? Like,
because I don't want to be here and watch this. Because I already feel like that I already felt
like he was feeling. And I wanted to put my head in my hands and shake my head. And no, I can't
believe this either. I don't, it's not the ideal. This was not my goal. And so long story short,
I left and I remember my parents asking me, So how did it go with the bishop? Now, let me back up for
just a second, because I think it's important to know at that time in my life, I really, it was
really driven into me or taught to me that the bishop is the mouthpiece for the savior. This
is like, you're going to confess. And you're going to go tell a priesthood authority what you have
done. And so as I am telling him, I'm thinking, Okay, this is how the savior feels about me. This
is how he, he's, he's disgusted. He is devastated. He is like shocked. He just cannot believe that I
have, I have got myself in this situation. And so then again, the story enhances. And then I believe
that this is exactly how the savior feels about me and where we're going. But you know, it's like,
Yep, I've disappointed him. Yep, I am ruined. Yep, I made that really big, bad choice. And here I am.
And so anyway, when I get home, and I'm my mom and dad are both, how did it go to the bishop? And
I said, honestly, I feel worse. I don't feel forgiven, because that was my checklist. I was, if I went
in there and I told him, I was supposed to feel better. That was, that was the rule of the repentance
process in my little brain. And so understanding that, you know, when I went in and, and confessed to
him, and I came home feeling worse, I was like, Okay, that was a big fat fail. That did not work.
You know, as everything unfolds, you know, it's like, Okay, now we're going to go find a support
group. And at that time, LDS social services had a support group for single girls, women,
that were pregnant out of wedlock, and they would have a counseling group, and they would go at
four o'clock on Tuesdays or something. And we would all sit around at a table and talk about
what we were going to do. Some, and some of these girls were further along, some of these girls had
already had babies, some of them placed them for adoption, some of them kept them. They just
basically shared their story of this is why I chose this, this is why I chose that. And as an
observer, and as a terrified little girl, in this situation, I got to see things that were happening
in their lives. So, and how they handled the similar situation. So I started going to that
support group. I did graduate from high school, five months pregnant. It was a big fat secret.
And I just wore big hoodies, nobody knew I didn't say anything to anybody. There were speculations,
of course, rumors get out, and I grew up in a really small town. And when I graduated from high
school, I immediately moved up and to West Jordan with my brother and sister in law, they graciously
opened a room to me and, and welcomed me. You did that on your own, or were you encouraged to do that?
I was encouraged to, yeah, get out of town until I decided what I was going to do with this
pregnancy. So somewhat, did you feel not only devastated and full of shame, but you felt shunned?
For sure. Yeah, I just had to, you know, get out of the small town because we didn't want to ruin
reputations and ruin, you know, what was supposed to look what it was supposed to look like. So
you were sent away. Yeah, I did get a job up in Salt Lake. I did, I do need to back up a little
bit because after I had talked to the bishop, within a week or two, I was at church and,
and I still attended church, I didn't stop going to church. He called me in his office.
And he very humbly said, Deb, I owe you an apology. I just want you to know how sorry I am for the
way I handled that situation. And I want you to know that I'm human and I make mistakes. And that
was a really big mistake. And I hope you can forgive me. That was a tender, tender, pivotal
time in my life to be able to feel his sincere repentance and sorrow for the way that he handled
that situation. Long story short, he, you know, as I was working through that, they, I was able to
graduate four years of seminary. I wore a maternity dress that didn't look very maternity looking,
but was able to graduate four years of seminary and then graduate from high school. And then I
moved up to Salt Lake. The bishop up there and the whole ward was great. I'm 17 years old and,
and now it's quite obvious that I'm pregnant and they gave me a calling and I was so excited to
have a calling. And they asked me to be the ward chorister. And the first week that I,
that I led this singing was the fourth of July. So I made everybody stand up. I was so nervous,
but so excited that I could have a calling in the ward. Deb's very musical. I will always cherish the
him she sang, sang for our group at Adam on diamond. And anyway, you've been very blessed and
gifted Deborah with musical talent. Oh, that's sweet. Thank you. So that makes total sense.
You'd believe the music when you were 18 years old. I know your parents were as well, but anyway,
we came by it honestly. So at this point you're going to church, you feel like you're kind of
getting back on track. You feel like everything's kind of, even though there's still a lot of things
to work through and things that'll work themselves out, you're making attempts. You're going to the,
you're going to church, you're participating in the thing that you love. And Dave's right. Deb
is very musical and music is an extremely important part of her life. And so that was really kind of
a tender mercy, wasn't it that you were invited to be there? Deb has two favorite callings in the
church. One of them is to be the ward co-rester and the other ones to be in young women's and she's
phenomenal at both. But so that's going on. And then there is something else happened. So I kept
going to the support group and I ended up choosing to place this baby for adoption.
Worked really closely with the therapist. Caseworker maybe? Yeah. That I worked closely with her
and said, okay, this is, this is my choice. This is what I'm going to do. So you had decided to
place the baby for adoption? Yeah, and I was back and forth. I, you know, there were days that I was
like, I don't know if I can do this. This is really difficult because all I ever wanted to be in my
whole life was a mom. And to like make that decision to allow somebody that couldn't be a mom
or that wanted another baby in their life, it was a really, really hard decision. And you talk about
crying out in previous episodes. I definitely had those moments of crying out and I pleaded
with the Lord to please lead me and guide me, help me know where this innocent, pure child
is supposed to be. And I knew I could love the baby. I knew I could. But because I chose not to
marry the father and I have such an amazing father in my life, I was like, this child deserves a dad,
a good dad. And that was a pivotal decision maker for me was giving this child exactly what I was
graciously given, which was a mom and a dad that loved me. And so as I journaled and prayed and
journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed for those nine months, I felt like I was led.
The way that they did it then was they would say, okay, we have family ABCDE. And here are the
characteristics. This is this was completely closed adoption. And they said this is the color
of their hair. This is their their things they like. Take these names and these people and and
pray about it. And and I did I did not take that lightly. I knew this was a huge this was impacting
in eternities. And I knew that I needed to be a part of that. I needed to listen to the spirit
because nobody on this earth knew where that baby needs to be. But I knew God knew. That's a pretty
heavy task for a 17 year old. Yeah, I learned a lot at a very young age. But you did it. Obviously
you have great faith. Yeah, I did do it. And when I when I chose the first family and the family
and the group that the social services, they have a committee that they pray together, they
they say we're going to take and pray about it too. We all felt good about this first,
like family A or something. And they approached the bishop and the bishop said, you know, I don't
know what's going on with the family. They're not as active. They're not paying tithing. I don't know
that it's a good time for this, this baby to go to this family. That was impactful in my life right
there. And then for the simple fact is what what blessings am I foregoing because of choices I'm
making in my life, I will never forget that. And so we went back to family ABCDE and took out family
A or whatever family that was, we prayed about it again to find the next family that was ready for
this this infant. That has been a really big part of remembering at again at a very young age to
to remember that blessings are predicated on on our obedience. And that was a really huge lesson
for me to learn. Well, so so Deb, so at this point in your life, commandments are pretty much
everything. And you're obviously really focused on commandments then. And that is an amazing lesson,
right? The blessings are predicated upon our obedience, right? Amen. But at this point in your
life, being so focused on that, while not understanding the Atonement of Jesus Christ, is
that fair to say? Yeah, 100% fair. So you didn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ, you're
praying to God, you know, you're getting answers, you're, you're feeling the spirit of the Lord
in spite of your your challenges and your past and all of that. But there's, is it fair to say
that there's no repentance taking place, basically? In my at that time, I thought this was repentance.
In that innocence or that ignorance, whatever you want to call it, I felt like, oh, yeah,
okay, this is the repentance process, because I went and talked to the bishop, and now I'm getting
answers from Heavenly Father of what to do and how to move forward with this mistake, with this sin.
But as far as being forgiven and feeling like my sin that was a scarlet red was,
did definitely did not feel like as white as snow. Well, I want to correct myself. I'm sure there
was some repenting taking place. But crying out, right, that's part of repentance, having a relationship
with our Heavenly Father, feeling the spirit, seeing the bishop, all of that's all of that's
really good stuff. All that's positive. But the Savior, the blood of the Savior, his atoning sacrifice
was at that time not really, I mean, you weren't aware of that so much then.
Well, no. And as I finish my story, you're going to see, I mean, it'll really play out. So long
story short, I have this baby and she was feet first. So I knew before the baby was born that
she would need to be a C-section. And I asked my doctor if they could put me completely out. I
don't want that that bonding moment. My family was so supportive. My mom was there and my sister and
sisters and I just had a lot of support as far as that goes. And so they put me out,
give me a C-section. I wake up and there's this baby. And because I had her C-section,
she stayed in the hospital with me and I got to spend five special days with her.
That I still cherish clearly because it stirs emotion. And there were bets in the hospital
that I wouldn't place her, but I knew she wasn't mine. I knew she wasn't. I was just a tool to get
her here. So five days later, I sign papers and she gets taken to her family. And of course,
the social workers telling me, oh, you brought so much joy. And I can only imagine because I've been
able in years now to see the joy that people that have adopted have been able to experience.
And especially in a blended family, I feel like I put one out into the universe and got four in
return. I got four bonus kids when I married Scott. And I just feel like it's God's way of saying,
thank you, Deb. And one of those kids is adopted and Deb and Casey have an extremely close
relationship that nobody can understand except for Deb and Casey and our family.
Yeah, it's pretty tender. And Chris and I have adopted and what a sweet blessing that is in a
family. After all of that, I'm like, okay, I'm done. I've done the hardest thing in my life. I can get
on with my life and now I can go find me an eternal companion and get married in the temple and live
happily ever after. I moved out with some roommates. So I'm no longer living with my brother. I have a
job up in Salt Lake. I move in with some roommates and one of them was a return missionary and she
was taking me to her young adult ward, going to activities and meeting a lot of people and dating
and within a few months, I meet a young man that shows a little interest or a lot of interest.
And before I know it, I'm drinking again and having sex again. And I remember thinking,
I thought I learned my lesson. This is so and I think the hardest piece of it was when I told this
this person that I had had a baby and that I have stretch marks and now a scar and his reaction was
you know, kind of left and like, I don't really want anything to do with you.
So again, there was more rejection and more validation that I'm not clean. I'm not pure.
I'm not forgiven. I'm not, you know, virtuous. I don't deserve anything less than whatever I can get
because of the story that I kept telling myself. And I think that was probably the biggest thing
that I've learned through all of this is even though I felt like I had made a wrong right,
I had not really used the Atonement of Jesus Christ to allow it to cleanse or to purify
the belief or the lies or to enable you to enable you and strengthen you to make the changes that
you needed to make and to be changed through his atoning sacrifice. Right. So now I'm right in the
exact same situation and seven months after I had that baby in place to her for adoption, I'm pregnant
again. And so when they talk about repeating the same sin over and over, I now have pictures to go
with those words and I'm not telling my mom because the dad and dad, the devastation and all my older
brothers and sisters had all been married in the temple and serve missions. And so now I have this
dirty little secret that we kind of hid. And now it's like, okay, now what do I do? Because I'm
definitely not going through that again. That was excruciating like so hard. And so I just,
we decided to get married. We have this wedding that's not in the temple, not in the, you know,
and I'm getting comments from family members that come through the wedding line is, you know,
this is not what the graves do. This is not what we do. Anyway, so the guilt on top of the guilt
already. So just knowing all of the shame and shun and disappointment. And what am I doing to this,
this family name? What am I doing to my life? I'm destroying my own life. And I honestly feel like
now as I look back, I really felt like, because I was so broken and so damaged and so used.
And abused not only now, not being a virgin, but not, I mean, I'll have scars and stretch marks.
And I'm pretty much damaged goods. Who is going to want this? So I think the story that kept going
on in my mind was there's no way of cleaning this up. And I did not really believe that that's what
the atonement was for was to clean that mess up, to make that wrong right. Because then I added
an alcohol on top of it, which was another rule that you do not dream, you know, stay virtuous,
no fornication, no all of this. And, and now it's just like I just jumped deeper into a pit.
So I think that was the piece that really kind of taught me that I really don't understand.
I really do not understand the atonement. I don't understand that I truly can be forgiven over and
over and over and even understanding. So you were how old when you were married, Deborah?
I had just turned 19. Now you're married and you have the baby and, and so all of this stuff is
heaped up. And you're, and you're trying to start a marriage and, and just in a few seconds, how did
that go? So it, you know, I think Ender to the end was probably my motto for, for suffer. Oh,
definitely suffer. Yeah, through it. Yes. And one of the blessings that came from that marriage
was within a year of being married a little over a year. We were able to take Jessica to be
stilled to her in the temple and I received my endowments and I remember really when I entered
the temple feeling, I remember having a pomegranate. I just remember literally feeling like everything's
better now. Everything is going to work. Everything's going to be okay. It was like this was my destination
place. This is where I needed to get to. And now I'm finally here. And I really hung on to the
temple like clung, like almost like, you know, snowstorm when you're just squeezing that steering
wheel. I really feel like that's when I really was able to like, like hold on and I held on tight
because there were a lot of things that had happened that had gone on in that marriage. I had,
I have three amazing children from that marriage, but there were a lot of challenges in that marriage
that were very, very hard. Commandments and now ordinances. Yep. You're really clinging to ordinances
and your faith is no doubt really strong and your heavenly father and in, in keeping the
commandments and walking the covenant path, what's your relationship with the savior at that point?
I think with the challenges that came during that marriage, I felt like this is kind of the
punishment for living the life I have lived. And so now I have the tools to go to the temple and
now I have the tools to pray and stay active. And I, I remember at that time in my life,
I kept thinking, maybe if literally I thought this, I'm not trying to be funny, but I, I thought,
maybe if I'd pay 12% tithing or maybe if I go three times a week to the temple instead of just
once, I remember like literally swinging, swinging that pendulum completely the other way.
Great example of trying to save yourself. That's a great example. And I mean, we've all, I think
we all experience that at some point or have that we, we try to, to save ourselves. Oh yeah.
It was a white knuckle experience. We, we not only, we not only believe that we
suffer because of our sins or is that there's suffering or punishment as consequences of our
sin, but you, and I've experienced this as well, you think you actually have to suffer for your
sins. Yeah, for sure. Right? For sure. You're not only suffering because of them. Yeah. You're
suffering for them. Oh yeah. You're trying to pay back. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I literally, it was like,
I, I wore that victim card loud and proud. I was such a victim. It's funny to say now, but yeah,
it was, it was very interesting. So we don't have a lot of time left when we're winding up.
How did that marriage end? And then how did it go after that? And Deborah, at what point in your
life do you feel like you finally came to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ? And when did you
feel like through his merits, through his suffering and his blood that you became redeemed and saved
and you experienced the joy of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, at the end of the marriage,
I just feel like we grew apart. I mean, he, I did not, I was not the person he married. I changed
and I changed a lot. And so in the end, it was one of those things where it was just, it was better
that he go his way and I go my way. He's married to a wonderful woman too. Yes, he has a good life.
I love her and I'm so grateful for her. She's great to my kids and my grandkids. I'm, I, yes,
as I divorced and I had been, I had known Scott for four years through the program and stuff.
And he was a very good friend and we walked through similar things together. It wasn't until after I
had lost my membership in the church for a year, I was disfellowshipped and lost my recommend and was
unable to take the sacrament that I really understood what the atonement of Jesus Christ was
because of the void. It wasn't there. And like I said, I was clinging to the gospel. I was clinging
to the temple. And when that was removed from me and I, I went in a spiritual time out and I,
I wouldn't even say spiritual, but maybe a physical time out to just kind of spiritually
reconnect and understand what's really going on here and then really applying the doctrine
because I feel like the doctrine was definitely not in my, in my mentality. I didn't understand it
the way that I do now. And so the reason why I choose to share this whole experience and this
devastating, you know, experience that could be, I guess, devastating is for the simple fact is
there were a lot of years of suffering, a lot of years of, of turmoil, a lot of years of self-doubt
and self a lot of things that were unnecessary because of the ignorance towards the atonement
of Jesus Christ. I did not have to carry that for decades. I did not have to carry that victim. I
did not have to carry that any, any piece of that. And I think that's the part that it's like, I just
want to, I just want to stand on the top of a mountain and say, there is hope, even if you
make the same mistake over and over and over again, there is hope and it is only through the Savior
of Jesus Christ and his blood. And I know that today. I know that I'm still not done messing up.
I know that and I don't claim to be perfect in any way, shape and form, but I'm grateful
that I can turn my back on those things that no longer bring me the spirit and that I can cry
unto him. You know, as you talk about in previous episodes about, did you have a cry out moment?
I have to say, I have cry out moments almost daily that I just plead, plead with him,
just help my will and thy will be one. Please help me commune with thee. That is my wish and desire.
And I definitely don't do it perfect or right, but every day there's effort. And I'm just grateful
today that I know that my Heavenly Father loves me and I know that the Savior is very well aware
of my journey and He did drip drops of blood for me. He hung on that cross for me
and He was resurrected for me. And for that I have hope, a lot of hope and a lot of joy.
And knowing that makes all the difference. I'll just say something here quickly and then Scott
and Deborah, you can finish it. Part of what I've experienced today is, and I may have shared this
before in the episode, but I think this is so important for parents to get this lesson as they've
listened to Deborah today to learn this and to apply it in their lives and their families.
I was sitting on the stand at the missionary training center and Boyd K. Packer,
President Packer was teaching and he told the missionaries there, we're not going to judge you
by your number of baptisms, we're going to judge you by what kind of parents and grandparents you
become. And on that note he said, I have some counsel for you that you now live in a world
that is more wicked than it is righteous. And if you don't do a better job teaching your children
the atonement of Jesus Christ, then you do teaching the commandments to your children.
You're going to lose your children because they're not going to keep all the commandments.
That's where we're at. And your example of that Deborah is, I think, amazing how you have come
back from so much in your life to be where you are now, the person that you are now, which I've
always been inspired by you and since I've known you since you married Scott, how grateful I am
for you, your example and the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice in your life.
So thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you. Well, so I've heard this story
literally hundreds of times and I'm never left without impact every time I do. I appreciate
your honesty, appreciate your openness and willing to put out there with maybe a hard thing to sometimes
put out there. And I know a lot of people would find it extremely difficult to talk about these
things. And I know that sometimes you wrestle with that too, just because I watch you do that.
And I think that it's important that we recognize your courage, your strength in doing so because,
you know, we've had last night, we were sitting out on our deck in preparation for the things
that we were going to talk about. And I asked you, why, why do you do this? And, you know, your
answer is the same as my answer when I mass that question about, you know, when I share my story
and stuff too. And your answer was if I can just help one person, if I can just give courage or
strength or even just an inkling, a little tiny bit of hope to somebody who may, even if they're
not in the exact same situation, but may be filling those feelings of distance from our
Heavenly Father because of choices that we make or filling that separation of the Spirit, whether
it be real or imagined, because of the way that we have been raised in a culture where we talk
about commandments and those things are important. And sometimes we could do a better job in talking
about our relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I've watched you, I know your relationship
with Him. Deb and I, when we were first dating, some of our first dates were in the temple and
just being there and feeling our Heavenly Father Spirit. We have an important relationship,
Deb and I do, Dave. And every night as we kneel by our bedside and pray, we thank Heavenly
Father for being the most important person in our relationship. He's first. He's first to Deborah,
and He's first to me. And because of that, we have a relationship that, you know, we look forward
to an eternity with. Any final words you'd like to say, sweetheart? No, I just, I just appreciate
being able to share my story. It's, and again, just pray that it can touch one person to at least
look at the possibility to apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives. Because it is such,
it's been such a huge impactful thing in my life. And I'm just so grateful.
I just have one more thought. You mentioned, after you were married, your first marriage
and going to the temple, and you were just going to endure to the end. That's how you kind of saw
it, right? Yep. And you were clinging. You said you used that word clinging to that.
How do you see enduring to the end differently now?
Then you did then. Yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I think the clinging
is more in a triad with Heavenly Father and having a companion that wants what I want
and has the same goals, has the same, I just feel like there's a soul to soul connection
that it's like, this is a whole lot easier. Well, you know, what I'm thinking of Deborah is,
and Scott is bringing a little scripture into this is in the first Nephi, that chapter eight,
when Lehi has a stream, right, of the tree of life and the fruit and this iron rod. And there
are four groups of people that he describes in that. And one of the groups is the group that is
clinging. He uses the word clinging to the rod of iron. And they get to the tree and they notice
the great spacious building and they fall away. The cleaners don't last. And then he sees another
group of people that are simply holding fast. He could, yeah, that's the term that he uses,
that they're holding fast. They get to the tree, they partake of the fruit, and they fall down
in worship. They acknowledge and they know, you know, and the fruit, I think of the fruit at least
as the atonement of Jesus Christ. They fall down. They are not at all interested in the
greatest spacious building. And I've often taught that, you know, based on that example that cleaners
never last, you have to hold fast. And the difference is, is how you see the gospel of Jesus
Christ. And the key to that is how we see our Savior, our Father's plan of redemption and the
role of Jesus Christ in fulfilling that plan through his atonement. And that makes it enduring.
I mean, it looks completely different. It feels completely different, right, Deborah?
Right, absolutely. And that just brought me to, in my patriarchal blessing, it tells me,
in five different areas, my life will be full of joy and happiness. Go forth and be happy,
be happy, be happy. And I literally am living that today. Is that joy and happiness in living
the gospel, having it very much alive, being steadfast in that, again, I don't do it perfect,
and I'm not claiming to do it perfect, but I definitely am experiencing joy. That was my
favorite thing in conference when President Nielsen said, find joy and repentance. That
resonated really big with me. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Well, thanks so much, Deb, for being here.
If you want to- I love being with both of you and for the sweet relationship that you have. So
thank you for your example in that as well. Well, thanks, Dave. We don't normally do this,
but for whatever reason, you'd like to send a question even to Deb or reach out with whatever
a comment to her or encouraging her or thanking her for being here. Do that through our email
at heredeemsusatgmail.com. He redeemsusatgmail.com. Well, I have felt the spirit today. I think that
our listeners will too as they listen to your openness, your transparency, your love. One thing
that Deb is gifted with, and it is a spiritual gift. She's gifted with love. She knows how to love.
She loves everybody that she comes in contact with. I think that that's a direct result of her
feeling her Heavenly Father's love through the power of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ,
and His Atonement as well. Thanks for being with us, Deb. Dave, thanks for doing this again.
I cherish these moments. Love you both so much. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us
for another podcast. We hope you feel God's love for you. We hope, and it's important to us, that
you do know that you have been redeemed through His blood. We look forward to being with you again.
Thanks for being with us today. Take care.