1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:08,280 Hey there everybody. So either technology gremlins got a hold of my computer or somebody forgot 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:13,640 to plug in the sound board when we were recording last week, more likely the latter than the 3 00:00:13,640 --> 00:00:20,120 former. So I think I'm going to owe Uncle Dave a big bottle of peanut M&Ms. We'll have 4 00:00:20,120 --> 00:00:25,840 to re-record that. So watch for that to come out in two weeks. Good news is, and this is 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,760 going to be a fortunate mistake, a fortunate set of circumstances for you all. Many of you 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:37,120 have not yet had the opportunity to hear when we did the interview with my sweetheart, Debra 7 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:45,480 Durfee. We will replay that today in lieu of our regularly scheduled event. This will 8 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:50,960 become as a pre-recorded. So hey, thanks for understanding and you're welcome. I think that 9 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:57,080 you'll really, really enjoy this. Let us know your thoughts. He redeems us at gmail.com. 10 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:20,880 We've got a great podcast in store, I think today. Real treat. I'll get to that in just a 11 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:24,800 minute before we do. I just want to thank everybody for your emails. We've received a 12 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:30,480 lot of great questions and some experiences while we've received a couple of wonderful 13 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:36,240 experiences that have been shared with us, experiences of hope, experiences of crying 14 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:43,120 out, experiences of tying into the power of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ through His 15 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:48,560 atonement in ways that have made monumental changes and even some small important changes 16 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:53,920 in life. So we're grateful for those. I want to introduce somebody who's super important to me. 17 00:01:54,720 --> 00:02:00,880 She's very important to David as well, but I'm going to get emotional, so I'm going to have to 18 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:09,920 not look at you, Deb. I want to introduce our guest today, somebody who's extremely important to me. 19 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:15,760 Dave's learned to love this person over the years as well as she's become a member actually of our 20 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:22,560 family. My wife, Debra Durfey, she'll be with us today. A wonderful story. Say hi, Deb. 21 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:28,160 Hello, everyone. It's so good to have you here. So Deb and I, I'll just do a quick little 22 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,080 introduction about Deb, kind of give a little background on her and then we'll get right into 23 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:37,120 some questions and let Deb talk about her story and the importance of it and how it relates to 24 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:42,400 being redeemed through the blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in all ways. So Deb and I 25 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:52,320 actually met in 1998 in Lehigh, Utah, and we were both, she was a leader in and kind of helped and 26 00:02:52,320 --> 00:03:00,640 was super instrumental in helping develop and bring about the addiction, addiction recovery program 27 00:03:00,640 --> 00:03:08,240 from the church here in Utah County. And I was attending a little bit later for reasons that 28 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,120 are obvious to those who have been listening for a while. For those who aren't, I'm recovering 29 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:21,040 alcoholic with 23 years and 11 months and two weeks of sobriety. I mean, you have to have a 30 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:27,520 party next month. Yeah, October 26. That's right. 24 years. 24 years. But Deb and I met just prior 31 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:34,720 to, well, just after two months after my getting sober roughly and a few years later, we ended 32 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:40,320 up married. Deb and I have had an opportunity to share both of our stories in sacrament meetings and 33 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:48,080 firesides, countless firesides and fifth Sundays and young women's camps, young men's camps, 34 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:52,240 helamans camps and those kinds of things. And it's been a wonderful experience for both of us. 35 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:59,120 As we've kind of hand in hand walked the journey of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our own life 36 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:04,800 separately and together as we've worked hard to do a little Brady Bunch thing. We have seven kids 37 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:11,600 between us. We love them all. We don't differentiate and who's who's or any of those things. They're 38 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:18,400 all our children and we now have 12 grandchildren. We love them, I think just as much as we love 39 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:27,600 our kids and maybe some days even a little bit more. So one other thing, you know, this story 40 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:32,960 that I think Deb's going to be sharing, at least parts of it today, is a story that she has personally 41 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:39,680 shared in high schools and junior highs and recovery centers, especially those specifically for women 42 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:48,640 all over the state of Utah and for over 20 years now and in fact well over 20 years now. And this 43 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:54,080 story that we're going to be talking about, especially as it relates to how it ties into the 44 00:04:54,080 --> 00:05:01,120 redemption being redeemed through his blood, the blood of course of Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior, 45 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:07,520 his power through the atonement. As we talk about those things today, I think that there's going to 46 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,320 be great relevance in all of our lives, but maybe even greater relevance in some of the lives of 47 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:17,120 those that may be finding it difficult to find hope who could be in similar situations. So 48 00:05:17,840 --> 00:05:23,840 let's just start off Deb. Why don't you just tell us a little bit about yourself, a little bit 49 00:05:23,840 --> 00:05:30,240 about maybe kind of lead us into where we, where you want to go with what we talk about here and 50 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,960 we'll just go from there. So I feel like because of the decades I've lived, I have a lot of stories. 51 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:45,680 So when you invited me to come and share my story, I was reflecting on which story I was 52 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:53,840 actually going to share. But I feel like after listening to the last few podcasts, this particular 53 00:05:53,840 --> 00:06:03,600 story, which was a huge part of my life in giving me who I am and forming me the way that it was 54 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:09,360 just part of my journey of how I learned more about me and more about the atonement of Jesus 55 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:14,640 Christ. And something Deb that can bless the lives of so many others. I'm sure you're thinking 56 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:23,040 about that. Yeah, I always tell people I'm a good example of what not to be. So, um, or how to become 57 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:29,680 there you go. There's hope. What you shouldn't be. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, as I was reflecting on, 58 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:36,720 on what story I would share, I thought about one of the first really big impactful experiences that 59 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:44,000 happened in my life when I was between my junior and senior year in high school. And I was dating 60 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:50,400 a boy and they didn't have the, for the strength of youth pamphlet back in the olden days. And we 61 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:57,280 just got like pretty vague rules like don't lay down with a guy, don't stay out past midnight. 62 00:06:57,280 --> 00:07:05,440 And so to try to stay on the covenant path and to stay virtuous and to be worthy. Those were the 63 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:12,640 vague rules that I heard. I'm sure there probably were many others that were getting more explain, 64 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:20,080 more explanation than I was, but those are the ones that I basically remember. And so when I was in 65 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:30,720 the dating world and I was, you know, trying to be an obedient youth. And I had an experience where 66 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:37,360 I had stayed out past midnight watching a movie with a group of people and I did the 67 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,240 unthinkable, laid down on the floor and watched a movie. So you broke two rules. 68 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:49,440 I broke both rules all in the same night, stayed out past midnight and, and laid down and watched 69 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:59,200 the movie with, with a guy. Long story short, I found myself being violated. And it wasn't that 70 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:06,800 night. It was the, you know, the very next day during broad daylight. I was, I was raped and 71 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:16,480 it was very traumatic to me. It was scary. I was horrified. I was devastated. I fought with every 72 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:30,160 strength in my body to stop what was going on and was not successful. And I felt completely 73 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:39,760 broken and so devastated. When I left, I went, I was returning a video, if you guys remember 74 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:44,800 back in the day of blockbuster when you're returning videos. And I remember going home, 75 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:51,920 my, my bedroom was in the basement and I wanted to curl up in a ball and literally just go to 76 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:57,920 sleep and not wake up. I was so broken and so devastated for what had happened to me. 77 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:02,320 But I felt like I had deserved that because I had broke those two rules that I was always told 78 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:09,120 not to break. I was out past midnight and I laid down with a guy I didn't. And so that, 79 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:17,120 now I understood why you don't do those things. So feeling more than a victim, you felt that you 80 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:23,520 had brought it on yourself. Oh, absolutely. You deserved it. I did. I did. I broke those rules. 81 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:30,800 And so I felt like I deserved that. I knew better than, than that because I had been told that over 82 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:37,440 and over and over. And I broke those two rules that were always told to me. Can I ask a question 83 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:41,200 real quick? Yeah. And I don't want you to lose your train of thought. I want you were going to say, 84 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,600 but can you kind of give us an overview of what your relationship with Heavenly Father and Jesus 85 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:53,200 was like at that point? So I was raised just like Nephi with goodly parents and we went to 86 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:59,440 church every week and I, I loved primary. I loved all of the, you know, weekly church 87 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:07,040 activities we participated. We had family night every Monday night. We had family prayer every 88 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:16,240 morning. I mean, I was, I was raised in a very strong, great home. However, I did have my own 89 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:25,200 interpretation of what God was. Jesus was his helper in my, in my young mind. He was there to help 90 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:31,760 Heavenly Father. And because I have such an amazing father, it was easy for me to know that 91 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:39,120 there was a loving Heavenly Father, but I also knew that I could disappoint him if I made the 92 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:45,840 wrong choices. And I, I really honestly remember thinking that Heavenly Father's up there watching 93 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,880 all the good and the bad. And I remember when I was eight, when I got baptized, thinking all of 94 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:57,280 those black marks that Heavenly Father had made on his tablet of Deb are now being washed in the 95 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,840 waters of baptism. They're all, all those black marks are going to go away. And I remember thinking, 96 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:08,800 I can't, yeah, it was the eraser. And I remember thinking, I can't do anything wrong ever again. 97 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,920 Don't, don't even think about saying a bad word, thinking about thought, doing a bad deed, 98 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:22,320 whatever. I just, I just remember my slate is clean. And, and of course, I, I knew shortly 99 00:11:22,320 --> 00:11:29,600 after I turned eight and into eight years and one day after being baptized, that there were some 100 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:39,120 black marks already going up there. And I just felt a little scared and intimidated by the God 101 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:45,520 as I understood him as kind of like the cop. And I remember even sometimes being outside in the 102 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:50,960 summer rain with the lightning and stuff. And I'm like, Oh, he's probably a little bit mad at somebody 103 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:57,040 right now, because I can hear some thunder. But in that innocent brain, that's what was reality to 104 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:02,160 me. I just thought, and then I remember also, I was raised with six brothers. And I remember them 105 00:12:02,160 --> 00:12:06,320 saying, you know, when it rains, that means God's crying because he's, you know, I'm like, Oh, 106 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:10,560 maybe he's crying because he's upset with all the black marks they have. I mean, it's funny what we 107 00:12:10,560 --> 00:12:18,320 kind of tell ourselves and what interpretation we take as what means what. How do you, how do you 108 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:23,600 think that, that view that you had of Heavenly Father at that point, how do you think that 109 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:29,200 affected your reaction to all of these things that had just happened to you? Oh, I knew he was so 110 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:35,520 mad at me. I knew he was absolutely disappointed. I knew that I had broke every rule that I had 111 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,240 ever been told. And I just knew he was in pure utter disappointment with me. 112 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:48,160 So what I hear you describing Deb, you say the commandments were clearly taught in your home. 113 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:57,200 Yes. But it wasn't so much, it was a gospel of commandments, dues and don'ts. And not so much 114 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:05,120 a gospel of relationships. Sounds like really maybe as a teenager, you didn't even know what 115 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:12,000 the Atonement of Jesus Christ really was about. What redemption was, what salvation was, 116 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:18,960 how can we draw closer to them? What's their character, attributes and perfections, 117 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:27,440 which is the requirements to really exercise faith in him. Those things were kind of missing in your 118 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:33,600 gospel youth upbringing. Absolutely. Everything was, was black and white. It was all about the 119 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:40,480 dues and the don'ts. And it wasn't because it probably wasn't taught, but I sure didn't hear it 120 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:48,000 or feel it. Whether it was me not listening, whether it was just the misunderstanding. And I was 121 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:53,280 telling my own story in my own head of what this all looked like. And the things that were spoken to 122 00:13:53,280 --> 00:14:01,920 me and taught to me, I drew pictures myself and understood it the best way I knew how, 123 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:09,840 far as understanding God and his Son Jesus Christ. And really, I did not, I can tell you right now 124 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:17,040 in the stage of my life, I truly did not understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ. I had no clue, 125 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:23,920 Christ. There's no way I understood that at that time. Yeah. Okay, so you're, you're raped. How old 126 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:31,680 were you? It was the summer I turned 17. Being in a family that who emphasized keeping commandments, 127 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:37,840 how did that, how did that go? Oh, I, I was not going to tell anyone. I could not tell a single 128 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:44,400 solitary soul. I had brought this onto myself because of choices I had made. And so there was, 129 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:50,960 it was something that no one was going to know, even though deep down inside it ate at me. And I 130 00:14:50,960 --> 00:15:00,160 had this secret that was just utterly painful. And I, I kept telling myself over and over, 131 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:08,480 you're, you're ruined. You're damaged. You're, you're not virtuous anymore. You're not clean. 132 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:14,960 You're not pure. You're not worthy. So all of these stories. And then as I would go to church and, 133 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:20,800 and go into the young women, you know, organization and hear, you know, what we need to do to stay 134 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:27,440 virtuous and clean. And, and I just knew all is lost. I really knew all was lost. There was no 135 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:35,120 hope for me because it was, it was already broken. How long after you were, did the, did the, your 136 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:45,120 pregnancy, was that the result? So I, it's interesting that you asked that because that's when I, 137 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:53,040 I couldn't resolve it within my own head, within my own heart. I couldn't resolve it. And so, you 138 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,680 know, of course I would get on my knees and say, you know, Heavenly Father, this is really 139 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:02,320 uncomfortable for me and I don't like it. Can you please remove it? And of course it didn't, 140 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:09,280 because I didn't really understand exactly how to resolve it. And so I think within, 141 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:17,360 oh, I would say within a few months, I kind of threw my hands in the air and gave up in the fact that 142 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:23,840 I had a friend that introduced me to alcohol. And when I realized that alcohol made me feel 143 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:29,040 different and I didn't feel guilt and shame and I didn't feel that story of not good enough, 144 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:37,680 that helped numb out that story I was telling myself and also the pain that went with that 145 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:46,480 guilt and shame that was so alive in me. And so then when I started drinking, then I'm 146 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:54,880 you know, reconnecting and having, getting sexually active with the same guy and stayed, 147 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:08,080 I mean, it kind of spiraled down until then I find myself pregnant. So it wasn't a one-time thing, 148 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:15,200 it was a choice. After that, it was a choice of, yeah, I like this, I'm gonna go do it this way. 149 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:20,720 And you had that point not talked to anybody about this? Oh, no, never. No. You're hiding all of that, 150 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:26,160 the drinking and everything and your parents and you hadn't talked to the bishop or? Oh, no, no. 151 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:32,400 I didn't talk to anybody about it. The only one that knew was my friend and at the time my boyfriend. 152 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:43,280 Okay. So I'm... So what happened after that? You say you got pregnant? Once that happened, 153 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:49,040 I mean, what was the next thing that happened after that? I just remember I had to go over to 154 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:54,960 the hospital to get a blood test. I don't remember if they even had home tests at that time, but I 155 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,040 just remember going over to the hospital and getting a blood test. And then I had to get on 156 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:05,040 my landline and call after four o'clock to find out the results. And I remember when I called the 157 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:11,360 hospital and the nurse or whatever on the other end said, results are positive. Like in such a 158 00:18:11,360 --> 00:18:19,760 happy way. And I like in pure devastation hung up that phone and almost went back in the fetal 159 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:29,120 position. And I remember calling my friend and I said, I have no idea what to do. I just got a 160 00:18:29,120 --> 00:18:37,120 positive test on my pregnancy. And I got to tell my mom, I got to tell my dad, this is something 161 00:18:37,120 --> 00:18:43,680 you don't hide. This is something that you can't keep a secret. Now it's, now it's going to be 162 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:51,680 exposed. And so I took some time and told my mom and dad, I need to talk to him. I sat them both 163 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,760 down and told them. And I remember my dad saying, you know what, there's a reason we'll get through 164 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:05,360 this. And I remember, you know, just feeling okay. I know I devastated them. I know they were just 165 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:11,040 like jaw dropped. And like, what are we going to do? I remember the visualization. I remember feeling 166 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:18,160 like I was in a deep pit that with no ladder, I just remember thinking, how am I ever going to get 167 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:24,000 out of this? How am I ever going to find peace in my life ever again? How am I going to find 168 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:33,200 like any kind of joy or happiness? This is utter devastation and despair. And I remember 169 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,880 looking at my mom thinking, I just want your joy. I just want to fill your joy and happiness again. 170 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:47,280 And if I could just get out of this hole, but I remember feeling absolute hopeless and helpless 171 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:57,600 and broken with with no tools to get out of this, this whole damaged goods. Oh, so damaged, so 172 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:03,920 damaged goods. Was there any part of a repentance process that began to be in place at this point 173 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:11,040 for you? I mean, did you talk to your priesthood leaders? Did you? So of course, I know that I 174 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:16,080 know, you know, you go talk to the bishop when when these kinds of things happen. And at this time, 175 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:21,760 I'm a senior in high school. And I'm attending seminary. I'm in my fourth year of seminary. I 176 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:27,760 was probably serving in the Laurel presidency at the time. I'm very active in church still. And 177 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,960 your dad had been a bishop. Yeah, when I was younger, he was like maybe eight or something. 178 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:40,960 But now I'm I'm 17. Of course, I make an appointment with the bishop. And at that point in my life, 179 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:47,600 and I'm learning this as I'm older now, listening to the to what repentance is and what repentance 180 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:53,680 isn't. Well, as a matter of fact, you and I teach that repentance and forgiveness 181 00:20:54,800 --> 00:21:01,920 institute class at BYU for BYU and UVU students. And you're very impactful there. So yeah, yeah, 182 00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:06,880 yeah, it's a different perspective today. Right, right. And I had read the miracle of forgiveness. 183 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:15,680 And now reading the divine gift of forgiveness has definitely, yes, has definitely changed my 184 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:23,280 interpretation and understanding more fully, thank goodness, and more holy. So you went to the bishop. 185 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:29,680 So I made an appointment, go into the bishop, and I basically say so I've been involved in some 186 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:35,840 things that I'm not really happy about, and I'm pregnant. And at this time, I'm sure I can clearly 187 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:42,320 tell you my bishop was absolute shocked, because his the look on his face, and then he dropped his 188 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:49,840 head into his both of his hands and just kept shaking his head no. And just in absolute utter, 189 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:56,800 like, Oh my gosh. And he just kept saying, Oh, Deb, Oh, oh my gosh, I can't believe this. I can't 190 00:21:56,800 --> 00:22:00,000 believe this. And he kept shaking his head no. And I just sat there watching him with 191 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:05,920 like eyes of like, Oh, can I just run out of this room right now? Can I just like exit? Like, 192 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:10,320 because I don't want to be here and watch this. Because I already feel like that I already felt 193 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:16,240 like he was feeling. And I wanted to put my head in my hands and shake my head. And no, I can't 194 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:24,000 believe this either. I don't, it's not the ideal. This was not my goal. And so long story short, 195 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:30,640 I left and I remember my parents asking me, So how did it go with the bishop? Now, let me back up for 196 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:37,040 just a second, because I think it's important to know at that time in my life, I really, it was 197 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:43,440 really driven into me or taught to me that the bishop is the mouthpiece for the savior. This 198 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:50,480 is like, you're going to confess. And you're going to go tell a priesthood authority what you have 199 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:57,760 done. And so as I am telling him, I'm thinking, Okay, this is how the savior feels about me. This 200 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:05,520 is how he, he's, he's disgusted. He is devastated. He is like shocked. He just cannot believe that I 201 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:13,200 have, I have got myself in this situation. And so then again, the story enhances. And then I believe 202 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:21,360 that this is exactly how the savior feels about me and where we're going. But you know, it's like, 203 00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:27,360 Yep, I've disappointed him. Yep, I am ruined. Yep, I made that really big, bad choice. And here I am. 204 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:33,440 And so anyway, when I get home, and I'm my mom and dad are both, how did it go to the bishop? And 205 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:39,520 I said, honestly, I feel worse. I don't feel forgiven, because that was my checklist. I was, if I went 206 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:45,200 in there and I told him, I was supposed to feel better. That was, that was the rule of the repentance 207 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:51,760 process in my little brain. And so understanding that, you know, when I went in and, and confessed to 208 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:58,240 him, and I came home feeling worse, I was like, Okay, that was a big fat fail. That did not work. 209 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:05,120 You know, as everything unfolds, you know, it's like, Okay, now we're going to go find a support 210 00:24:05,120 --> 00:24:12,320 group. And at that time, LDS social services had a support group for single girls, women, 211 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:17,600 that were pregnant out of wedlock, and they would have a counseling group, and they would go at 212 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:22,560 four o'clock on Tuesdays or something. And we would all sit around at a table and talk about 213 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:28,560 what we were going to do. Some, and some of these girls were further along, some of these girls had 214 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,280 already had babies, some of them placed them for adoption, some of them kept them. They just 215 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:40,160 basically shared their story of this is why I chose this, this is why I chose that. And as an 216 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:48,480 observer, and as a terrified little girl, in this situation, I got to see things that were happening 217 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:56,480 in their lives. So, and how they handled the similar situation. So I started going to that 218 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:01,840 support group. I did graduate from high school, five months pregnant. It was a big fat secret. 219 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:10,400 And I just wore big hoodies, nobody knew I didn't say anything to anybody. There were speculations, 220 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:16,960 of course, rumors get out, and I grew up in a really small town. And when I graduated from high 221 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:24,640 school, I immediately moved up and to West Jordan with my brother and sister in law, they graciously 222 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:30,800 opened a room to me and, and welcomed me. You did that on your own, or were you encouraged to do that? 223 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:37,680 I was encouraged to, yeah, get out of town until I decided what I was going to do with this 224 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:46,000 pregnancy. So somewhat, did you feel not only devastated and full of shame, but you felt shunned? 225 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:53,440 For sure. Yeah, I just had to, you know, get out of the small town because we didn't want to ruin 226 00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:59,840 reputations and ruin, you know, what was supposed to look what it was supposed to look like. So 227 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:08,640 you were sent away. Yeah, I did get a job up in Salt Lake. I did, I do need to back up a little 228 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,880 bit because after I had talked to the bishop, within a week or two, I was at church and, 229 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,000 and I still attended church, I didn't stop going to church. He called me in his office. 230 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:29,600 And he very humbly said, Deb, I owe you an apology. I just want you to know how sorry I am for the 231 00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:36,480 way I handled that situation. And I want you to know that I'm human and I make mistakes. And that 232 00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:42,400 was a really big mistake. And I hope you can forgive me. That was a tender, tender, pivotal 233 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:49,920 time in my life to be able to feel his sincere repentance and sorrow for the way that he handled 234 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:57,760 that situation. Long story short, he, you know, as I was working through that, they, I was able to 235 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:04,320 graduate four years of seminary. I wore a maternity dress that didn't look very maternity looking, 236 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:10,080 but was able to graduate four years of seminary and then graduate from high school. And then I 237 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:16,960 moved up to Salt Lake. The bishop up there and the whole ward was great. I'm 17 years old and, 238 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:22,160 and now it's quite obvious that I'm pregnant and they gave me a calling and I was so excited to 239 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:29,440 have a calling. And they asked me to be the ward chorister. And the first week that I, 240 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:35,200 that I led this singing was the fourth of July. So I made everybody stand up. I was so nervous, 241 00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:43,120 but so excited that I could have a calling in the ward. Deb's very musical. I will always cherish the 242 00:27:43,120 --> 00:27:52,560 him she sang, sang for our group at Adam on diamond. And anyway, you've been very blessed and 243 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,960 gifted Deborah with musical talent. Oh, that's sweet. Thank you. So that makes total sense. 244 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:05,840 You'd believe the music when you were 18 years old. I know your parents were as well, but anyway, 245 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:14,240 we came by it honestly. So at this point you're going to church, you feel like you're kind of 246 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:20,320 getting back on track. You feel like everything's kind of, even though there's still a lot of things 247 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:25,200 to work through and things that'll work themselves out, you're making attempts. You're going to the, 248 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:30,480 you're going to church, you're participating in the thing that you love. And Dave's right. Deb 249 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:36,560 is very musical and music is an extremely important part of her life. And so that was really kind of 250 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:42,720 a tender mercy, wasn't it that you were invited to be there? Deb has two favorite callings in the 251 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:47,280 church. One of them is to be the ward co-rester and the other ones to be in young women's and she's 252 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:54,400 phenomenal at both. But so that's going on. And then there is something else happened. So I kept 253 00:28:54,400 --> 00:29:00,800 going to the support group and I ended up choosing to place this baby for adoption. 254 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:09,840 Worked really closely with the therapist. Caseworker maybe? Yeah. That I worked closely with her 255 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:16,640 and said, okay, this is, this is my choice. This is what I'm going to do. So you had decided to 256 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:21,520 place the baby for adoption? Yeah, and I was back and forth. I, you know, there were days that I was 257 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:30,240 like, I don't know if I can do this. This is really difficult because all I ever wanted to be in my 258 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:48,400 whole life was a mom. And to like make that decision to allow somebody that couldn't be a mom 259 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:57,840 or that wanted another baby in their life, it was a really, really hard decision. And you talk about 260 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:05,920 crying out in previous episodes. I definitely had those moments of crying out and I pleaded 261 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:13,920 with the Lord to please lead me and guide me, help me know where this innocent, pure child 262 00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:22,240 is supposed to be. And I knew I could love the baby. I knew I could. But because I chose not to 263 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,920 marry the father and I have such an amazing father in my life, I was like, this child deserves a dad, 264 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:37,040 a good dad. And that was a pivotal decision maker for me was giving this child exactly what I was 265 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:44,800 graciously given, which was a mom and a dad that loved me. And so as I journaled and prayed and 266 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:50,720 journaled and prayed and journaled and prayed for those nine months, I felt like I was led. 267 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:59,040 The way that they did it then was they would say, okay, we have family ABCDE. And here are the 268 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,880 characteristics. This is this was completely closed adoption. And they said this is the color 269 00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:11,760 of their hair. This is their their things they like. Take these names and these people and and 270 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:20,960 pray about it. And and I did I did not take that lightly. I knew this was a huge this was impacting 271 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:28,320 in eternities. And I knew that I needed to be a part of that. I needed to listen to the spirit 272 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:34,320 because nobody on this earth knew where that baby needs to be. But I knew God knew. That's a pretty 273 00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:41,280 heavy task for a 17 year old. Yeah, I learned a lot at a very young age. But you did it. Obviously 274 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:49,840 you have great faith. Yeah, I did do it. And when I when I chose the first family and the family 275 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:58,480 and the group that the social services, they have a committee that they pray together, they 276 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,160 they say we're going to take and pray about it too. We all felt good about this first, 277 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:09,600 like family A or something. And they approached the bishop and the bishop said, you know, I don't 278 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,200 know what's going on with the family. They're not as active. They're not paying tithing. I don't know 279 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:20,000 that it's a good time for this, this baby to go to this family. That was impactful in my life right 280 00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:26,640 there. And then for the simple fact is what what blessings am I foregoing because of choices I'm 281 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:33,280 making in my life, I will never forget that. And so we went back to family ABCDE and took out family 282 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:39,520 A or whatever family that was, we prayed about it again to find the next family that was ready for 283 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:48,880 this this infant. That has been a really big part of remembering at again at a very young age to 284 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:58,480 to remember that blessings are predicated on on our obedience. And that was a really huge lesson 285 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:05,520 for me to learn. Well, so so Deb, so at this point in your life, commandments are pretty much 286 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:12,560 everything. And you're obviously really focused on commandments then. And that is an amazing lesson, 287 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:19,680 right? The blessings are predicated upon our obedience, right? Amen. But at this point in your 288 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:27,200 life, being so focused on that, while not understanding the Atonement of Jesus Christ, is 289 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:32,880 that fair to say? Yeah, 100% fair. So you didn't understand the Atonement of Jesus Christ, you're 290 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:38,480 praying to God, you know, you're getting answers, you're, you're feeling the spirit of the Lord 291 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:46,880 in spite of your your challenges and your past and all of that. But there's, is it fair to say 292 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:54,160 that there's no repentance taking place, basically? In my at that time, I thought this was repentance. 293 00:33:54,960 --> 00:34:00,000 In that innocence or that ignorance, whatever you want to call it, I felt like, oh, yeah, 294 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:04,000 okay, this is the repentance process, because I went and talked to the bishop, and now I'm getting 295 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:10,000 answers from Heavenly Father of what to do and how to move forward with this mistake, with this sin. 296 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:18,240 But as far as being forgiven and feeling like my sin that was a scarlet red was, 297 00:34:18,240 --> 00:34:24,080 did definitely did not feel like as white as snow. Well, I want to correct myself. I'm sure there 298 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:30,640 was some repenting taking place. But crying out, right, that's part of repentance, having a relationship 299 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:35,440 with our Heavenly Father, feeling the spirit, seeing the bishop, all of that's all of that's 300 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:44,320 really good stuff. All that's positive. But the Savior, the blood of the Savior, his atoning sacrifice 301 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,000 was at that time not really, I mean, you weren't aware of that so much then. 302 00:34:50,000 --> 00:35:02,240 Well, no. And as I finish my story, you're going to see, I mean, it'll really play out. So long 303 00:35:02,240 --> 00:35:10,000 story short, I have this baby and she was feet first. So I knew before the baby was born that 304 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,320 she would need to be a C-section. And I asked my doctor if they could put me completely out. I 305 00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,640 don't want that that bonding moment. My family was so supportive. My mom was there and my sister and 306 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:28,880 sisters and I just had a lot of support as far as that goes. And so they put me out, 307 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:34,480 give me a C-section. I wake up and there's this baby. And because I had her C-section, 308 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:44,720 she stayed in the hospital with me and I got to spend five special days with her. 309 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:55,040 That I still cherish clearly because it stirs emotion. And there were bets in the hospital 310 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:59,920 that I wouldn't place her, but I knew she wasn't mine. I knew she wasn't. I was just a tool to get 311 00:35:59,920 --> 00:36:10,480 her here. So five days later, I sign papers and she gets taken to her family. And of course, 312 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:15,120 the social workers telling me, oh, you brought so much joy. And I can only imagine because I've been 313 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:25,280 able in years now to see the joy that people that have adopted have been able to experience. 314 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:31,760 And especially in a blended family, I feel like I put one out into the universe and got four in 315 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:37,120 return. I got four bonus kids when I married Scott. And I just feel like it's God's way of saying, 316 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:45,040 thank you, Deb. And one of those kids is adopted and Deb and Casey have an extremely close 317 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:50,000 relationship that nobody can understand except for Deb and Casey and our family. 318 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:54,720 Yeah, it's pretty tender. And Chris and I have adopted and what a sweet blessing that is in a 319 00:36:54,720 --> 00:37:00,240 family. After all of that, I'm like, okay, I'm done. I've done the hardest thing in my life. I can get 320 00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:06,160 on with my life and now I can go find me an eternal companion and get married in the temple and live 321 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:12,160 happily ever after. I moved out with some roommates. So I'm no longer living with my brother. I have a 322 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,800 job up in Salt Lake. I move in with some roommates and one of them was a return missionary and she 323 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:24,880 was taking me to her young adult ward, going to activities and meeting a lot of people and dating 324 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:33,200 and within a few months, I meet a young man that shows a little interest or a lot of interest. 325 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:42,960 And before I know it, I'm drinking again and having sex again. And I remember thinking, 326 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:51,440 I thought I learned my lesson. This is so and I think the hardest piece of it was when I told this 327 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:59,280 this person that I had had a baby and that I have stretch marks and now a scar and his reaction was 328 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,160 you know, kind of left and like, I don't really want anything to do with you. 329 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:10,240 So again, there was more rejection and more validation that I'm not clean. I'm not pure. 330 00:38:10,240 --> 00:38:18,560 I'm not forgiven. I'm not, you know, virtuous. I don't deserve anything less than whatever I can get 331 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:23,760 because of the story that I kept telling myself. And I think that was probably the biggest thing 332 00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:29,040 that I've learned through all of this is even though I felt like I had made a wrong right, 333 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:38,000 I had not really used the Atonement of Jesus Christ to allow it to cleanse or to purify 334 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:49,040 the belief or the lies or to enable you to enable you and strengthen you to make the changes that 335 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:56,160 you needed to make and to be changed through his atoning sacrifice. Right. So now I'm right in the 336 00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:03,440 exact same situation and seven months after I had that baby in place to her for adoption, I'm pregnant 337 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:11,760 again. And so when they talk about repeating the same sin over and over, I now have pictures to go 338 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:19,520 with those words and I'm not telling my mom because the dad and dad, the devastation and all my older 339 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:25,360 brothers and sisters had all been married in the temple and serve missions. And so now I have this 340 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:32,640 dirty little secret that we kind of hid. And now it's like, okay, now what do I do? Because I'm 341 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:39,360 definitely not going through that again. That was excruciating like so hard. And so I just, 342 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:45,120 we decided to get married. We have this wedding that's not in the temple, not in the, you know, 343 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:50,560 and I'm getting comments from family members that come through the wedding line is, you know, 344 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:56,720 this is not what the graves do. This is not what we do. Anyway, so the guilt on top of the guilt 345 00:39:56,720 --> 00:40:06,960 already. So just knowing all of the shame and shun and disappointment. And what am I doing to this, 346 00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:15,760 this family name? What am I doing to my life? I'm destroying my own life. And I honestly feel like 347 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:26,000 now as I look back, I really felt like, because I was so broken and so damaged and so used. 348 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:34,000 And abused not only now, not being a virgin, but not, I mean, I'll have scars and stretch marks. 349 00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:41,120 And I'm pretty much damaged goods. Who is going to want this? So I think the story that kept going 350 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:48,320 on in my mind was there's no way of cleaning this up. And I did not really believe that that's what 351 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:56,320 the atonement was for was to clean that mess up, to make that wrong right. Because then I added 352 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:02,240 an alcohol on top of it, which was another rule that you do not dream, you know, stay virtuous, 353 00:41:02,240 --> 00:41:07,920 no fornication, no all of this. And, and now it's just like I just jumped deeper into a pit. 354 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:16,480 So I think that was the piece that really kind of taught me that I really don't understand. 355 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:24,720 I really do not understand the atonement. I don't understand that I truly can be forgiven over and 356 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:30,640 over and over and even understanding. So you were how old when you were married, Deborah? 357 00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:38,480 I had just turned 19. Now you're married and you have the baby and, and so all of this stuff is 358 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:51,440 heaped up. And you're, and you're trying to start a marriage and, and just in a few seconds, how did 359 00:41:51,440 --> 00:42:01,440 that go? So it, you know, I think Ender to the end was probably my motto for, for suffer. Oh, 360 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:08,400 definitely suffer. Yeah, through it. Yes. And one of the blessings that came from that marriage 361 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:17,680 was within a year of being married a little over a year. We were able to take Jessica to be 362 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,800 stilled to her in the temple and I received my endowments and I remember really when I entered 363 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:31,440 the temple feeling, I remember having a pomegranate. I just remember literally feeling like everything's 364 00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:38,960 better now. Everything is going to work. Everything's going to be okay. It was like this was my destination 365 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:45,440 place. This is where I needed to get to. And now I'm finally here. And I really hung on to the 366 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:52,880 temple like clung, like almost like, you know, snowstorm when you're just squeezing that steering 367 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:59,280 wheel. I really feel like that's when I really was able to like, like hold on and I held on tight 368 00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,160 because there were a lot of things that had happened that had gone on in that marriage. I had, 369 00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:10,080 I have three amazing children from that marriage, but there were a lot of challenges in that marriage 370 00:43:10,080 --> 00:43:18,800 that were very, very hard. Commandments and now ordinances. Yep. You're really clinging to ordinances 371 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:27,040 and your faith is no doubt really strong and your heavenly father and in, in keeping the 372 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,840 commandments and walking the covenant path, what's your relationship with the savior at that point? 373 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:38,720 I think with the challenges that came during that marriage, I felt like this is kind of the 374 00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:45,520 punishment for living the life I have lived. And so now I have the tools to go to the temple and 375 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:52,240 now I have the tools to pray and stay active. And I, I remember at that time in my life, 376 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:58,160 I kept thinking, maybe if literally I thought this, I'm not trying to be funny, but I, I thought, 377 00:43:58,720 --> 00:44:05,200 maybe if I'd pay 12% tithing or maybe if I go three times a week to the temple instead of just 378 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:12,080 once, I remember like literally swinging, swinging that pendulum completely the other way. 379 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:17,680 Great example of trying to save yourself. That's a great example. And I mean, we've all, I think 380 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:26,160 we all experience that at some point or have that we, we try to, to save ourselves. Oh yeah. 381 00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:29,920 It was a white knuckle experience. We, we not only, we not only believe that we 382 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:37,600 suffer because of our sins or is that there's suffering or punishment as consequences of our 383 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:45,760 sin, but you, and I've experienced this as well, you think you actually have to suffer for your 384 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:51,760 sins. Yeah, for sure. Right? For sure. You're not only suffering because of them. Yeah. You're 385 00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:57,840 suffering for them. Oh yeah. You're trying to pay back. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I literally, it was like, 386 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:05,280 I, I wore that victim card loud and proud. I was such a victim. It's funny to say now, but yeah, 387 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:12,240 it was, it was very interesting. So we don't have a lot of time left when we're winding up. 388 00:45:12,240 --> 00:45:20,960 How did that marriage end? And then how did it go after that? And Deborah, at what point in your 389 00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:28,320 life do you feel like you finally came to understand the atonement of Jesus Christ? And when did you 390 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:36,640 feel like through his merits, through his suffering and his blood that you became redeemed and saved 391 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:44,960 and you experienced the joy of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Well, at the end of the marriage, 392 00:45:44,960 --> 00:45:53,520 I just feel like we grew apart. I mean, he, I did not, I was not the person he married. I changed 393 00:45:53,520 --> 00:46:02,640 and I changed a lot. And so in the end, it was one of those things where it was just, it was better 394 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:10,000 that he go his way and I go my way. He's married to a wonderful woman too. Yes, he has a good life. 395 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:15,040 I love her and I'm so grateful for her. She's great to my kids and my grandkids. I'm, I, yes, 396 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:26,080 as I divorced and I had been, I had known Scott for four years through the program and stuff. 397 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:34,160 And he was a very good friend and we walked through similar things together. It wasn't until after I 398 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:42,240 had lost my membership in the church for a year, I was disfellowshipped and lost my recommend and was 399 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:50,160 unable to take the sacrament that I really understood what the atonement of Jesus Christ was 400 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:58,160 because of the void. It wasn't there. And like I said, I was clinging to the gospel. I was clinging 401 00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:06,960 to the temple. And when that was removed from me and I, I went in a spiritual time out and I, 402 00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,760 I wouldn't even say spiritual, but maybe a physical time out to just kind of spiritually 403 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:18,560 reconnect and understand what's really going on here and then really applying the doctrine 404 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:27,680 because I feel like the doctrine was definitely not in my, in my mentality. I didn't understand it 405 00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:36,320 the way that I do now. And so the reason why I choose to share this whole experience and this 406 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:44,000 devastating, you know, experience that could be, I guess, devastating is for the simple fact is 407 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:51,120 there were a lot of years of suffering, a lot of years of, of turmoil, a lot of years of self-doubt 408 00:47:51,680 --> 00:48:00,640 and self a lot of things that were unnecessary because of the ignorance towards the atonement 409 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:06,400 of Jesus Christ. I did not have to carry that for decades. I did not have to carry that victim. I 410 00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:12,800 did not have to carry that any, any piece of that. And I think that's the part that it's like, I just 411 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:18,000 want to, I just want to stand on the top of a mountain and say, there is hope, even if you 412 00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:24,480 make the same mistake over and over and over again, there is hope and it is only through the Savior 413 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:32,640 of Jesus Christ and his blood. And I know that today. I know that I'm still not done messing up. 414 00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:38,000 I know that and I don't claim to be perfect in any way, shape and form, but I'm grateful 415 00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:44,560 that I can turn my back on those things that no longer bring me the spirit and that I can cry 416 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:50,720 unto him. You know, as you talk about in previous episodes about, did you have a cry out moment? 417 00:48:51,360 --> 00:49:00,160 I have to say, I have cry out moments almost daily that I just plead, plead with him, 418 00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:09,360 just help my will and thy will be one. Please help me commune with thee. That is my wish and desire. 419 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:17,520 And I definitely don't do it perfect or right, but every day there's effort. And I'm just grateful 420 00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:26,560 today that I know that my Heavenly Father loves me and I know that the Savior is very well aware 421 00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:34,800 of my journey and He did drip drops of blood for me. He hung on that cross for me 422 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:43,520 and He was resurrected for me. And for that I have hope, a lot of hope and a lot of joy. 423 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:51,440 And knowing that makes all the difference. I'll just say something here quickly and then Scott 424 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:57,120 and Deborah, you can finish it. Part of what I've experienced today is, and I may have shared this 425 00:49:57,120 --> 00:50:03,520 before in the episode, but I think this is so important for parents to get this lesson as they've 426 00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:10,160 listened to Deborah today to learn this and to apply it in their lives and their families. 427 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:14,080 I was sitting on the stand at the missionary training center and Boyd K. Packer, 428 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:20,560 President Packer was teaching and he told the missionaries there, we're not going to judge you 429 00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,640 by your number of baptisms, we're going to judge you by what kind of parents and grandparents you 430 00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:31,040 become. And on that note he said, I have some counsel for you that you now live in a world 431 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:38,160 that is more wicked than it is righteous. And if you don't do a better job teaching your children 432 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:44,800 the atonement of Jesus Christ, then you do teaching the commandments to your children. 433 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,320 You're going to lose your children because they're not going to keep all the commandments. 434 00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:59,120 That's where we're at. And your example of that Deborah is, I think, amazing how you have come 435 00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:07,120 back from so much in your life to be where you are now, the person that you are now, which I've 436 00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:13,200 always been inspired by you and since I've known you since you married Scott, how grateful I am 437 00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:22,720 for you, your example and the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice in your life. 438 00:51:22,720 --> 00:51:30,240 So thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you. Well, so I've heard this story 439 00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:37,680 literally hundreds of times and I'm never left without impact every time I do. I appreciate 440 00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:43,600 your honesty, appreciate your openness and willing to put out there with maybe a hard thing to sometimes 441 00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,600 put out there. And I know a lot of people would find it extremely difficult to talk about these 442 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:53,120 things. And I know that sometimes you wrestle with that too, just because I watch you do that. 443 00:51:53,760 --> 00:52:01,200 And I think that it's important that we recognize your courage, your strength in doing so because, 444 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:06,000 you know, we've had last night, we were sitting out on our deck in preparation for the things 445 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:12,080 that we were going to talk about. And I asked you, why, why do you do this? And, you know, your 446 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:17,120 answer is the same as my answer when I mass that question about, you know, when I share my story 447 00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:23,280 and stuff too. And your answer was if I can just help one person, if I can just give courage or 448 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:29,760 strength or even just an inkling, a little tiny bit of hope to somebody who may, even if they're 449 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:35,200 not in the exact same situation, but may be filling those feelings of distance from our 450 00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:40,800 Heavenly Father because of choices that we make or filling that separation of the Spirit, whether 451 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:47,360 it be real or imagined, because of the way that we have been raised in a culture where we talk 452 00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:54,160 about commandments and those things are important. And sometimes we could do a better job in talking 453 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,440 about our relationship with our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. I've watched you, I know your relationship 454 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:06,240 with Him. Deb and I, when we were first dating, some of our first dates were in the temple and 455 00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:12,480 just being there and feeling our Heavenly Father Spirit. We have an important relationship, 456 00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:17,760 Deb and I do, Dave. And every night as we kneel by our bedside and pray, we thank Heavenly 457 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:23,600 Father for being the most important person in our relationship. He's first. He's first to Deborah, 458 00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:30,400 and He's first to me. And because of that, we have a relationship that, you know, we look forward 459 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:39,120 to an eternity with. Any final words you'd like to say, sweetheart? No, I just, I just appreciate 460 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:49,280 being able to share my story. It's, and again, just pray that it can touch one person to at least 461 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:55,440 look at the possibility to apply the Atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives. Because it is such, 462 00:53:55,440 --> 00:54:01,040 it's been such a huge impactful thing in my life. And I'm just so grateful. 463 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:07,920 I just have one more thought. You mentioned, after you were married, your first marriage 464 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:13,040 and going to the temple, and you were just going to endure to the end. That's how you kind of saw 465 00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:20,400 it, right? Yep. And you were clinging. You said you used that word clinging to that. 466 00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:25,360 How do you see enduring to the end differently now? 467 00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:32,480 Then you did then. Yeah, there's definitely, I mean, I think the clinging 468 00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:40,640 is more in a triad with Heavenly Father and having a companion that wants what I want 469 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:50,240 and has the same goals, has the same, I just feel like there's a soul to soul connection 470 00:54:50,240 --> 00:54:57,280 that it's like, this is a whole lot easier. Well, you know, what I'm thinking of Deborah is, 471 00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:03,840 and Scott is bringing a little scripture into this is in the first Nephi, that chapter eight, 472 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:11,760 when Lehi has a stream, right, of the tree of life and the fruit and this iron rod. And there 473 00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:17,600 are four groups of people that he describes in that. And one of the groups is the group that is 474 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:25,520 clinging. He uses the word clinging to the rod of iron. And they get to the tree and they notice 475 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:34,960 the great spacious building and they fall away. The cleaners don't last. And then he sees another 476 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:41,440 group of people that are simply holding fast. He could, yeah, that's the term that he uses, 477 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:48,480 that they're holding fast. They get to the tree, they partake of the fruit, and they fall down 478 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:55,840 in worship. They acknowledge and they know, you know, and the fruit, I think of the fruit at least 479 00:55:55,840 --> 00:56:03,200 as the atonement of Jesus Christ. They fall down. They are not at all interested in the 480 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:10,160 greatest spacious building. And I've often taught that, you know, based on that example that cleaners 481 00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:19,520 never last, you have to hold fast. And the difference is, is how you see the gospel of Jesus 482 00:56:19,520 --> 00:56:27,040 Christ. And the key to that is how we see our Savior, our Father's plan of redemption and the 483 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:33,360 role of Jesus Christ in fulfilling that plan through his atonement. And that makes it enduring. 484 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,120 I mean, it looks completely different. It feels completely different, right, Deborah? 485 00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:43,200 Right, absolutely. And that just brought me to, in my patriarchal blessing, it tells me, 486 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:48,320 in five different areas, my life will be full of joy and happiness. Go forth and be happy, 487 00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:57,360 be happy, be happy. And I literally am living that today. Is that joy and happiness in living 488 00:56:57,360 --> 00:57:04,960 the gospel, having it very much alive, being steadfast in that, again, I don't do it perfect, 489 00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:11,440 and I'm not claiming to do it perfect, but I definitely am experiencing joy. That was my 490 00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:16,720 favorite thing in conference when President Nielsen said, find joy and repentance. That 491 00:57:16,720 --> 00:57:25,840 resonated really big with me. Yeah, I love that. Thank you. Well, thanks so much, Deb, for being here. 492 00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,960 If you want to- I love being with both of you and for the sweet relationship that you have. So 493 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:36,800 thank you for your example in that as well. Well, thanks, Dave. We don't normally do this, 494 00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:45,200 but for whatever reason, you'd like to send a question even to Deb or reach out with whatever 495 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:50,480 a comment to her or encouraging her or thanking her for being here. Do that through our email 496 00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:58,880 at heredeemsusatgmail.com. He redeemsusatgmail.com. Well, I have felt the spirit today. I think that 497 00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:05,520 our listeners will too as they listen to your openness, your transparency, your love. One thing 498 00:58:05,520 --> 00:58:11,200 that Deb is gifted with, and it is a spiritual gift. She's gifted with love. She knows how to love. 499 00:58:11,200 --> 00:58:15,360 She loves everybody that she comes in contact with. I think that that's a direct result of her 500 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:19,760 feeling her Heavenly Father's love through the power of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, 501 00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:25,840 and His Atonement as well. Thanks for being with us, Deb. Dave, thanks for doing this again. 502 00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:32,640 I cherish these moments. Love you both so much. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks for being with us 503 00:58:32,640 --> 00:58:39,040 for another podcast. We hope you feel God's love for you. We hope, and it's important to us, that 504 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:44,240 you do know that you have been redeemed through His blood. We look forward to being with you again. 505 00:58:44,240 --> 00:59:00,160 Thanks for being with us today. Take care.