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Music
Hey there everybody and welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood. Scott and David Durfey here
As always excited to do this again. How you doing Dave?
Well the room's a lot better than it usually is when it's just you and me in the room. Yeah, yeah, we have a little surprise
guest today
We have Deb Durfey with us. Hi Deb
It's good to have Deb. Deb's obviously my my sweet
Eternal companion. We're super excited to have her just worked out with her work schedule that she's able to be with us today
And we plan on doing a couple of special things today's works excited to have her here with us before we get rolling though
Just want to do a quick shout out and if first off
We've received a couple of really great emails lately and I want to just encourage you to continue to do that
You can send us emails questions. Whatever at he redeems us at gmail.com. He redeems us at gmail.com
And so we'll be getting to some of those questions that are still there shortly and
So stay tuned for that
All right, so here we go Dave we last week kind of talked about a little bit more as we concluded our discussion around the fall of Adam and Eve and
Today we're gonna move into yes, we are a little exciting Christmas episode
Coming birth of Jesus, but before we do Scott I
It is just really impossible for me to overstate the importance of
understanding the need for regaemer
Which also means understanding?
the reality of the fall and I
I think I get more positive feedback from family friends and others of
on our podcast on our lessons on the fall Scott and
Then maybe any other any other podcasts that we do because I just don't think people
will
Understand the and appreciate the the reality part of this is being part of the father's plan
I mean, I I know we invited all of our listeners to to give thanks to God for the fall
but I'm not sure everyone has and
Even if they have or haven't I'm not sure they all really feel it or believe it and I just
Again cannot
Overstate how importance?
It is to understand the need for redeemer it was chapter 3 in
Jesus the Christ when I was a young missionary that completely flipped my life and approach
To living the gospel and to repentance
You know, I I think I've shared my experience
I for months was trying to repent and didn't feel forgiven didn't feel forgiven didn't feel forgiven and the reason I didn't
Because I did not understand
That it wasn't through my efforts. It wasn't through the church. It wasn't through
You know, I needed Jesus and I did not understand my need for Jesus and I think if you if you miss
understanding
More fully the fall you you you will not understand as fully as you need to
and feel enough gratitude for a
Savior and redeemer
So we we last week
I know we gave the seven points of the importance of understanding the doctrine of the fall
one of the three pillars of the
plan of redemption
But I just wanted to just say one more time
that
Because I've been thinking about it all week. It's been on my mind all week
It's just so critical Scott that we do not base our identity
based upon the things that we do in
mortality
But that we base our identity upon who we are
which includes our pre-mortal existence and
Our potential to become like God
so in a
You know present Nelson desert books, but I knew kind of devotional book
And you can read a quote from present Nelson for each day of the year and
Someone shared this one with me recently
Based upon our discussion on who you are and this this is for present Nelson
I think it's for December till December 6th. He wrote in his book
your true identity is
established
by
and becoming the person you can become
the person God wants you to be and
Skipping just a little bit he says
From an eternal perspective
You really
Who you really are is far more important
Than is what you did so one more time from an eternal perspective
Who you really are is far more important than is what you did?
And I just think we really have a problem in our culture
not just in the church, but in our in our culture of
Have accomplishment in our culture of success and that we we base our identity upon what we do and
And that's it. That says
It's not just a mistake. I think it's a tool of the devil
that we do that because
Scott I know people, you know people we all know people
That
Act out in some pretty horrible ways
But I'm I've lived long enough, you know, they are second-poor
This is all this that's not necessarily who they really are
That's not who their spirit. That's not what their spirit is. That's not who there's their spirit
That who they were meant to become
From an eternal perspective
It is so much more important to know who you are
Than to focus on what you do
Because what you do is not necessarily who you are and this is this is so important for
me for you for all of our listeners to get beyond
the obvious the actions of others and ourselves and to just focus upon our eternal
identity and
Further to know that we have a savior who covers
those things that we do for whatever reason whatever
motives or
the survival of the fittest things that we do to survive the world to get through the world or
because of things in our past or
Conditions that we live in and all the other things that God takes into account
The ultimate most important knowledge one can have that makes a difference is
Knowing who they are and focusing less on what they do. I'm not saying that our actions are not important
I'm not saying that what we do does not eventually determine who we become. I know there's a connection there
But again from present Nelson from an eternal perspective. It's just so much more important
So I hope that people will never base their identity
Based upon the sins and temptations
They experience in a fallen hellish world or based upon even the sins
They commit in a fallen hellish world. That is not your identity
The thing about that is is I can see that it's a problem, you know and even elder or excuse me
Even president Nelson says what they did
You know, which puts it past tense. Yeah, right?
Yeah, but here's the thing, you know and I deal with this on a semi-regular basis in in the rooms of recovery
I had a guy call me just the other day who is struggling
His words not mine more than I ever have with this particular drug and with this particular addiction
And he said but I
Need to get to a meeting I need to get working steps against it because he he actually kind of did
See who he was and didn't let any of that get in the way, right?
Even in present tense not did not did but do what we're doing not what we did but what we're doing
But you but but is but for every one of those there's probably a handful of others where I'll get the same call
or I'll know of I'll be I'll be made aware of the same situation and
Because it's in the process of present moment
It's really difficult for some people to get that to see that because of their present moment, you know, think about it
You know for example
and then this is probably true regardless of the center addiction but
Whenever somebody has made a mistake the first thing that we should do is fall to our knees
remember him and and call upon his name and one of the hardest things for us to do is
Fall in our knees remember him and call upon his name and the reason for that is because we see ourselves in the wrong light
We see ourselves and I key the accuser again exactly and we see ourselves and are identified by what we did because that's the accuser point
Exactly, that's who you are. You're just a pervert and so it's super
I don't know. I shouldn't definitely never use words super easy when I've talked about this
But it's a little bit easier for us to understand and maybe wrap our brain around not what I did in past tense
Yeah, because it's behind us and we and we're coming to grips and we're coming to to kind of
reconcile all of that but when I'm in the process and when that doing is still a part of my fabric of my life
That's creating all kinds of trouble and in trial and so forth. It's difficult to separate and say this is who I am
but because of my doings are kind of keeping me anchored to a
or a
False belief of who I am
Yeah, what's your thoughts on this dad?
You know, I just keep going back to that conference talk with president Nelson when he just simplified it with two words
Think celestial, you know, and I think if we focus and it's not easy
But it's simple
So are we I know you know the quote, you know, are we human having spiritual experience or spiritual beings having human experiences?
But maybe we should change that we should say are we till lestual beings? I?
Having celestial experience or we celestial beings having till lestual experiences and the truth is
The truth is we're both and we should celebrate that because that's part of God's plan
That is that is part of the plan that we would grow and progress and especially that we would learn
how to love and rely
Upon Jesus Christ as our Redeemer. Yeah. Anyway, what that just kind of as a recap
I hope people will thank God for the fall and again focus more on who they really are
than what they did and
Not ever establish their identity based upon their fallen nature
okay, so
Scott let's talk about the birth of Jesus and
You know this all begins really with I mean
We can talk about the Old Testament prophecies of Jesus and there are depending on how you count there are either dozens or there are
I think Edershine said there were like 468
468 prophecies Old Testament prophecies of the birth and life and death of
Jesus Christ just in the Old Testament just in the Old Testament
468 now I mean he's using some verses and he you know they
They're fulfilled like in four different ways and anyway, I
Really the list I like the most there are 68
468
But the point is
Jesus's birth
Was at his life and his death were all prophesied thousands of years before and really the first one was
In Genesis chapter 3 we don't need to read it where he just tells them
Adam and Eve that
You know Satan may have power to bruise your heel
Right, and then this gets a little bit into the temple
but he
Has power to crush your head that that's really a direct prophecy of
the birth and
Life death of Jesus Christ the resurrection
So it really begins there and then it goes throughout
I think the most most of the prophecies of the Old Testament are found in Psalms and
Isaiah and
We have lots of prophecies in the Book of Mormon
You know Lehi, I mean Jesus even knew his name would or I'm sorry Nephi even knew his name would be
Jesus Jesus Christ and that and of course
the
Critics of the Book of Mormon think that's ridiculous, but
Nephi made it more plain more simple they even knew his name
So there are so many great Old Testament and Book of Mormon
Prophecies of the coming forth of of Jesus, but may we chair a few?
I think one of my favorites is Isaiah
chapter 7 Scott got it and I
Think about George Handel every time we read these verses
Because in three weeks he wrote the oratorio the Messiah
And when I was in London this last year one thing I wanted to see was George Handel's grave
And he's actually buried in Westminster Abbey
and
remember standing there seeing the
the angel
kind of engraved above his grave and
thinking well
Isaiah chapter 7 I
Think it starts with about verse 12. So here we go chapter 13 or chapter 7 verse 13
And he said here you now house of David it is a small thing for you to worry men
But will you worry my God also?
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign behold a virgin shall conceive and bear a son and shall call his name
Emanuel butter and honey shall he eat but he may know to refuse the evil and choose the good for before the child shall know to
Refuse the evil and choose the good and land that thou a poor shall be forsaken of both her kings. Yeah, I love this
They knew that he would be born of a virgin that Jesus would be born of a virgin and conceive a son and his name would be
Emanuel which is interpreted God is with us
God is with us. I also love the Isaiah
The Isaiah scriptures and I think it's in isn't chapter 9
wonderful
counselor
mighty God Prince of Peace, I mean the Isaiah prophecies of
Jesus that's in verse chapter 9 verse 6
For unto us a child is born
Unto us a son is given and the government shall be upon his shoulders
You can you can hear all this and his name shall be called?
Wonderful can't sorry
Counselor the mighty God the everlasting father the Prince of Peace. Oh
Wow, anyway, most of the I think handles
Messiah was was taken from the prophecies of
Isaiah and
That's that's 700 years before
Jesus is born that even you know predates Lehi and his prophecies
but I love the prophecies of the virgin birth and when we talk about the virgin birth Scott we of course think of Mary and
This is a element conkey said the most elect spirit of all of Heavenly Father's spirits
chosen for ordained to be the mother of
His only begotten son in the flesh and
I
Just I just really love this story of Mary and the Virgin birth we we reject the immaculate conception of
Catholics and others
The immaculate conception of course is not only that she was a virgin, but that she would always that she was always a virgin
There was no ever sexual relations between her and Joseph. So therefore they make Joseph look like an old man
because we know that Jesus had some brothers and sisters and
Everybody justifies that if they believe in the immaculate conception by making Joseph look like he's an old man a grandpa
and then Mary was a young woman who was willing to take on an old man and his
his
Kitten kids as their mother had died and that this is Joseph's second marriage. We reject all that
We don't believe that and further we don't we don't believe in the immaculate conception because they believe that Mary was completely
Not affected by the fall at all
That the the fall that she was no longer human that then that's why they they raise her to a level of
Praying to her and a God and in some cases to an extreme that that she's even greater than Jesus
because who can be greater than Jesus only his mother and father and
Anyway, so we we do not
believe or accept the immaculate conception, but we do accept the virgin birth and I
Don't know how I don't know the only thing I love how the Book of Mormon the Book of Mormon gives us the best
Really, let's go down to chapter 7 the Book of Mormon gives us the very best kind of description of how
how Mary conceived in
Almond chapter 7 it's right at the bottom of the second column
Oh, we're saying sorry. Yeah, it's verse 10. Okay, yeah, and behold
He shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem, which is the land of our forefathers
She being a virgin a precious and chosen vessel who shall be overshadowed and
Conceived by the power of the holy ghost and bring forth the Son. Yeah, even the Son of God. There you go
That's the best description we have of how the conception occurred
Overshadowed by the holy ghost now. I don't know what that means
I don't know if she was transported by the Spirit in the presence of God or
How that happened Scott and frankly I don't care and we don't need to know and Heavenly Father thinks it's so sacred
He's never gonna describe it and we'll probably never know any detail about that. All we know is that she conceived
the Son of God and that when he would be born
He would have all the effects of the flesh
Upon him through Mary that he would experience all of the experiences of the fall through Mary
But that because of his divinity only he could completely overcome all of the negative effects of the fall
Not only for himself, but for all of us because he was God
He was Adam
Second Adam and some people call him the second Adam and he is God
so I just I
just thrilled with this whole
plan of how
for ordained
Mary was chosen
To be and you know Mary if she's a good Jew
She's probably 15 16 years old. She's she's a young girl and Joseph's probably
About that same age or just a few years older. I
mean these are probably teenage kids Joseph and Mary and
the trust and
preparation no doubt that God had had
and put in them is
Really quite amazing. Oh the tradition is is that?
Mary's mother had maybe passed away by the time this right time Gabriel appears to her
Right, and that's why he sends her to Elizabeth is for Elizabeth kind of play that role for her and to prepare her for
for the
Motherhood Elizabeth being the mother of John the Baptist. Yes, yeah a cousin. Yeah
maybe maybe Mary's mother's cousin and
Zacharias being the high priest
struck deaf and dumb really when he's when you think about the story of Christmas we should start in July of
2bc and by the way
I'm not gonna we're not gonna get into the one with Jesus born. I
Let's just let me just get that out of the way right now by saying
Yeah, you can believe anything from 7bc to 1bc
Scholars argue and they have an argument for each of those
Actually elder mcconkey and president J. Breuven Clark
They they believe that you know he was born in 5bc and
Elder mcconkey justifies all that in his mortal Messiah series
But elder Talmadge believes it was 1bc
The elder bednar stated that it was on April 6th of 1bc. I mean, you know, so I
We don't know it's not a part of our salvation and it doesn't matter
We don't we don't need to know that and maybe he was buried maybe he was married or sorry
Maybe he was born in December and maybe not. I don't I think it was April
I don't
Generally there aren't shepherds attending their flock by night in Bethlehem in December
I mean, it's it's cold there in December and but maybe they were
Maybe it was December. I don't know I I really believe that the Romans changed the dates based upon the you know the timing of their
Pagan worship, I mean that they had a big celebration on December 25th the Romans
prior to 400 BC or
Or our ad prior to 400 ad when Christianity became the the national the
Religion of the Empire
but anyway, they had this to celebrate the birth of
soul
the
Solar Victus God that they believe in the Sun God
Yeah, and that he was reborn on
December 25th because the days start to get longer
You know the the shortest days December 21st
And so they picked December 25th so they could have a week-long celebration of celebrating the rebirth of
The soul the Sun God. Yeah. Yeah, so I think that the Romans changing it to December 25th is
Not for me any basis of authority to think that that's when Jesus was born
Yeah, and I actually like to think it was in the spring of the year and like a lot of things
It's moved. It doesn't matter. No, it really doesn't matter. So yeah
but but
Yeah, no, sorry. No, that's okay. That's okay. I think that's that's interesting important. No interesting to some
Yeah, perhaps Deb. I want to get your take on Mary. Yeah
Well as you were talking about that and I'm probably feel like I'm stepping back a little bit
But that's okay. Well, we were in Israel. There were also two places where they believed he was born
So I think there's just a lot of convoluted
Traditions yes, absolutely. So is it important? No the fact that he was born. Yes
Yeah, where did you think he was born when you were there where they show you that he was born?
I mean one was in a church, right? Yeah. Yeah, one was at the church
Yeah
I think they were both in the and I didn't it it was interesting because I I didn't feel
Something powerful at either place, right? Yeah, I just thought this is interesting
I you know the pictures that you see are very different than what is there. Yeah, I think that's interesting
You just said I didn't feel anything different because there were places when you definitely do. Oh, yeah, for sure
Yes, I mean I totally felt something different right, you know Golgotha. I felt something different
Yeah, yeah
Well, I saw that we'll maybe talk more about the place
But what's your I don't want to stop you from your thoughts on Mary?
so I
Have often thought about this as a woman and
Baring children and having a son
But I just think of the faith she must have had and the trust she must have had and the I think
The word that comes to me is innocence. I
think it was just
You know, I think of a 15 year old child
or a girl
Carrying a big burden carrying a
And I wouldn't call it a burden, but a big story
and I I feel like
For her it must have been I
Mean I also think about when she held that knowing that he was a son of God
knowing that
How much closer could you be to God?
then
having that
God in your womb. I
Mean, I can't even imagine what
Experiences and I would love to sit with her and
Ask those questions. What was it like?
Carrying the son of God. What was it like?
Raising the son of God. I mean it those thoughts have gone through my mind numerous times
about
nurturing and loving and I mean you have this perfect child and her being
not perfect
raising and
nurturing and
understanding what she knew
But still
Knowing as a small child that he's about his father's business. Yeah, I
Have a picture of a little boy Jesus at the top of my stairs and I remember the first time I saw that
being absolutely
Penetrated with the spirit
thinking
Of the innocence that he had
You know what a beautiful
depiction of
That his ministry I
Like the word innocence, but I also know that
Mary if she was a student of the scriptures and I I know she was I knew I know she knew the prophecies
Which would have been an important part of her preparation for her to even believe Gabriel when he appeared
Anyway, if she would have known the scriptures, I mean Alma Book Mormon testified of this
I'm sure there's
Prophecies that we don't even maybe they're not all in the Bible and I know that she must have known
I know she knew that if she was gonna be the mother of God, this was gonna be rough
Innocent for sure, but she had to be really tough and firm knowing that wow
He's gonna suffer and that means I'm gonna suffer. I
Think she she went into this knowing all of that now
Cognitively knowing it is one thing and then experiencing it 33 years later when he's
Crucified on the cross and she's standing there
You know at the foot of the cross what observing this
So that it's experientially it's different than knowing it cognitively
But anyway, she would have known that even as a even as a young girl. Yeah, this is gonna be rough. This is gonna
I mean she was she was taking a lot on a 15 and again must have been somewhat prepared
Maybe they're been great adversities in her life or whatever
I can't wait to someday read the book of Mary and see the videos of her young life and how God did prepare
But anyway Gabriel appears if again depending on whatever month you want to you can kind of work that backwards
Gabriel appears if he was born in April he probably right appears sometime in the middle of the summer
I'm married and
She is
espoused to Joseph well to be espoused is
Like you're married. I mean Jewish
Engagement is not like our engagements. They're a little flaky
But did you ever break up an engagement? No, okay? Okay? Well
so many do right we've had
Sir, don't spring sample, you know, you sometimes have these appointments. You're gonna do a life ceiling then all of a sudden it shows up
Cancelled and and there's probably lots of reasons for that but some of those I know are probably last minute fear and broken engagements
Anyway, Mary espoused to Joseph. This would have been arranged marriage. You know, this is a they they didn't always just
That Mary for love it was a different kind of love not romantic, but a sacrifice and
So they she was promised she'd made a covenant
with Joseph already and for her to be told this information and then to
Have the Holy Ghost overshadow her and her conceive the Son of God and then to be told to go see Mary
I think it's I think it's it's awesome to think about the sequence of these events just a little bit. I
Believe like elder McConkey that she would have gone to Joseph first. I think she would have told Joseph first
I think she oh she I we don't have record of the Gabriel told her to do that
But I think maybe he did
And if he didn't I think she did it out of respect and that covenant she went and told Joseph a I'm expecting a child
This is what happened. I think she told him. I think he was prepared for this
As you as we read the scriptures and most commentaries
Who comment on it?
Make us believe that that Joseph didn't really believe her or what's oh what's Joseph going to do?
You know is he gonna have her stoned is he gonna put her away? Privilege give her a divorce. What's he gonna do? I?
Actually believe based on a Jewish commentary. I read years and years ago. I actually believe he believed her and
He had decided to put her away privily because he was afraid that he was not worthy
To be the stepdad he didn't want to take that on himself and did not believe he was worthy to be the dad
For the son of God, I mean think about Joseph situation if Mary did go and tell Joseph
Hey, I'm expecting and it is the son of God. It's the it's a manual. It's
Jehovah is with us him the Messiah
Think of Joseph would you I mean really as a young man
Would you would you want to take that on?
And anyway, I think he he had fear
It's so cool in the
Announcement of Gabriel the angel
To Mary to Joseph and eventually to the shepherds, right? It's fear not
fear not fear not
Which makes me wonder
What sort of fear were they experiencing?
You know how how just think about that. We've talked about Mary
Joseph, but even the shepherds what kind of fear would that invoke in us anyway?
Mary tells Joseph and she says I'm gonna go see Elizabeth
I've been commanded to see Elizabeth. I'll be back in six months or however long she was there
I'll be back and you can tell me what you've decided to do
And he wrestled with it and wrestled with it and I actually believe it's just me that he
he came to the conclusion that I
Just don't know if I can do it. I don't know that I'm capable or worthy and
That's when he has the dream or vision
of the angel appearing
to him saying fear not and
and commanding to do it and
At that point I like to think he actually went down and picked up Mary and brought her home
We don't have a record of that
But there are some traditions that believe that and I kind of like that tradition of what's Gabriel appeared to him he was
He was all in
And he went down there and I don't know where they got married or when they got married
but I believe they got married just as soon as he got that information and
Got that witness and command from Gabriel
So
Mary and Joseph such an important part of of this story. I think about Joseph. I
Was just reading in Matthew. This is chapter 1 verse
19 and Joseph her husband
Being a just man and not willing to make her a public example and when you say just mans God that that is loaded
From a Jewish commentary standpoint. Why don't you?
Yeah, talk to us. That means that means if he was a just man
If he was really a good Jew, he would have stoned her
So for it say him being a just man
He was a just man. He would have fulfilled the law now
He did have that option but most people believe in the circumstances Jewish commentary as I've read that
For him to put her away frivolously
There were there had to be more to it then I mean he knew more than what he was really saying
And then in 20 but while he thought on these things behold the angel the Lord appeared unto him in a dream saying Joseph
Thou son of David which is important. Yeah, you know, that's it that that's important that we recognize the Joseph
His identity
Exactly helping him remember who he is and that it's through this line through this lineage that the Messiah will come
Exactly, right? Yeah, and if you're not to take under the Mary thy wife, you're not to take upon me
See he's saying I think he's already kind of come to conclusion. It might be true because he loves and believes Mary
Yeah, he knows Mary's he knows Mary's virtuous. He knows Mary's a good woman
He knows and he's and Mary hasn't said hey, I'm I'm a child by another man
Mary told him I had an angel appear to me and I am the mother of God. I
Think Mary clear made that completely clear to him
So I mean whatever what Joseph is wrestling with is not whether
Mary had an affair
What he's wrestling with is
Really, can I do this? That's right? And that's what I'm getting at because that that would be so
Overwhelming. I mean so what he's a just man. Okay, that's fantastic, right? Which means that he is in the faith
Yeah, which if he's in the faith in the law, yeah, that's not just that's not just a little thing
That's a big deal. I mean at school. It's yeah, I mean it's it's an extremely cool. Yeah
21 and she shall bring forth a son and now shall call his name Jesus for he shall save
his people from their sins and so and I think he's Gabriel is just
Verifying what Mary Mary had told him already told you right? Okay, so here now you get the bear now you get the
The second witness now you get the witness from the angel, right?
And you're going to be a new dad of the son of God. Are you kidding me? Yeah?
I I don't care how just I don't care how much earthly preparation or even
Spiritual preparation you put into that that seems like an impossible task from a dad standpoint, right?
So think about what all that entails, you know as Joseph
He now becomes the protector of the son of God that's I read the read the proclamation to the family
That hasn't changed, right? So so many responsibilities in the Jewish culture
He was the protector first born son and then they learn about how Herod about you know
Threaten to kill all the babies and so now Joseph has to take Mary and and Jesus a baby Jesus into Egypt for a time
Yeah, so you're not only protecting Jesus. You got to protect Mary exactly. Yeah
And Egypt at the time. I don't know why you know that might have been a hostile environment or at least at least an
Unfamiliar environment for them to be in and to reestablish and you know good thing
He was a carpenter and had a trade that was probably
You know desirable or in demand wherever they potentially possibly went
But you know, I think of Joseph we don't we don't talk a lot about in tradition and it's okay
You know the focus shouldn't be on Joseph the focus should be on Jesus
But I but as a stepfather, you know, I I sometimes take into consideration
And think of you know, what would I do? I you know just being a stepdad
It would have been a little bit different, you know, because Mary's you know, Jesus is real father
You know, there would have been very little chance of conflict between Joseph and Mary's real father, right?
Yeah, heavenly father
So there are some some big vast differences, but there are some similarities that can draw empathy for those who have potentially been in that situation
even stepchildren could look at that and
draw
Comfort and peace maybe and thinking, you know what Jesus had a stepdad too, you know, and I'm sure you know as a stepfather
You know, you always want to do the right thing. You're serious about your approach to your relationship with heavenly father so that you can teach
well, Joseph's was all of that and
so much more and
And I just have the utmost love and respect for that man because of all of that
Well, he was a man of
Great trust. I mean think of the trust God would have put in Joseph. Yeah to raise his son
Yeah, he got son right
Kindness, you know, yeah, and the revelations that Joseph probably would have received. I mean the relationship and
Revelations along the way to Joseph received
Anyway, so it's a special beginning special story
Yep, what thoughts? Yeah, I was thinking about Joseph's upbringing and how he was prepared just like Mary was prepared
I think Joseph probably had his story as well
ways that he had, you know, younger maybe trials maybe challenges where he was a little bit
You know closer to the spirit to understand so that he could hear the spirit right so that he could receive
Revelation so that he could hear when though that important message was delivered. Yeah
You know, I love I love the Michael McLean song about Joseph
He's remember that
And he says no
He's my father
Meaning Joseph saying no Jesus is my father
something to that effect and I just
Just think about this and what what Joseph and Mary had to know about Jesus before Jesus became a man
He knew he was the creator of the world this this baby had created the worlds
I mean when he's laying in the manger, what is Joseph and Mary thinking?
This babe created worlds. What?
anyway, I
This is a
Jesus was a God before he was born. What's the title of that is I was not his father
He was yeah, I want to read those lyrics because I think I think that's important. Yeah powerful
Yeah, because I remember when I first heard this song or my favorites me too
Was about the time I was becoming a stepdad really?
He was working late one evening when the wood he knew so well when she thought she recognized him
Though at first she could not tell as she humbly begged his pardon the strange sadness swelled inside
When she asked aren't you the father of the man they crucified?
Then the carpenter repeated what he said so many times. He said I'm not his father
He was mine
Then he humbly went on working with those worn and calloused hands though. He did not ask more questions
He knew she didn't understand so he asked if she would help him and
He saw her answer in a glance. She did all the chores. He asked her. She was so grateful for the chance
Then when they talked for hours of Jesus and how he knew he was divine
He said I was not his father. He was mine for how could one so foolish and
So flawed ever hope to raise the son of God. I love that that message
That's kind of a little bit how I see it now now to be honest
You know what happened to Joseph? Oh, well, we have so much so many holes to fill in the gaps
Yeah, right, we know we know some little really but but a lot of people believe Joseph must have died
I mean the the really the
lifespan was 40 something years at the time of Jesus and
33 years by the time Jesus is crucified most people believe Joseph has died
that
Jesus buried
Joseph his stepdad somewhere around Ezra and
That's why he's not there and that's why Mary's alone
Standing at the foot of the cross when Jesus is crucified and why Jesus is so concerned about Mary that he says to John
Who's standing there with her behold thy mother
Giving John the responsibility
which would be
You know
Amazing
Overwhelming for Jesus to give John the responsibility you got to take care of Mary
Now, I know James was a stepbrother Jesus. So we believe as Latter-day Saints that Mary had other children
after Jesus and some daughters
tells us in the scriptures that he had sisters and James and
James James and Jude
Are we know at least those two are half brothers?
To Jesus so he had a family. He was born and raised and had a family in the home of Joseph and Mary and
They went down to let's just talk about the birth I guess now Scott in Bethlehem they went there to be taxed
Went down to Bethlehem
Something that I found really interesting when we were studying when I was studying the compo me to
How even though he was a half brother he did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah
Yeah, yeah, they struggled with that didn't they which I think is so interesting like not being a profiting your own land
Yeah, but I your own family, right?
But after he was resurrected I think was when Jude said oh, yeah, I guess he is the Messiah
I mean, and I think that's an important thing to think about is it wasn't all easy and
Calming and peaceful because the Son of God was on the planet. I mean they didn't believe him while he was here
I mean people struggle now to believe that he is the Messiah and Christ and they didn't even believe while he was there
Even his own step brother and maybe that was in some ways
I've thought about that too Tim and maybe in some ways that was a protection to them
I mean maybe the Lord didn't want them to fully understand everything as to protect them
and
They didn't maybe know for sure until he maybe appeared to them
And I think it would have been maybe among his family that he first would have appeared
You know, I know the first appearance that we really have were on the two on the road to Emmaus
But I like to think that he he did appear to his family
There was a step brothers and sisters and others not just Mary. Yeah, I mean he appeared to Mary
I guess first then the two then the apostles anyway
We'll go through all that when we talk about the resurrection, but I
Think that maybe they didn't know for sure until I know Mary did I know Joseph did but the brothers sisters
That'd be tough to have an older brother who your mom was telling you was the son of God
I don't know how much she told him, but you're right. They didn't really have a witness
I also think about being the mom of these children and
having that
Sacred relationship with the Savior how do you balance that?
Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, clearly. I'm not Mary
But you know, I've often thought that tender relationship that she had with Jesus
And then what those you know her responsibility with those other children to
Yeah, no, not loving Jesus you wouldn't love Jesus anymore and you love Jude or anymore and you love James
Right the others and you know something that maybe you can't you can't tell them everything
Right and they didn't understand anyway, right? Yeah
Yeah, good point. Thank you
Well, they go down to Bethlehem because the decree that comes out from Caesar Augustus that all the world needs to be taxed
Right Luke chapter 2 so they go down there because they're there of the royal blood
both Mary and Joseph are the seat of David and
And David the city of David is Bethlehem. I mean, that's where that's where he kept his throne his palace
Bethlehem was a royal city. This is also a city where Ruth and Boas there. They're also
Jesus also descendants of Ruth and Boas in the
genealogy and
That's where they lived was Bethlehem and this is where
They're really near Bethlehem only a mile away. It's where Rachel was buried the beloved wife of Jacob and I mean
I mean Bethlehem was a
Not just a royal city, but it was a the city of their fathers
It was a sacred city and they go down there to be to do their census
To be taxed and that that was probably not so much maybe a Roman
Command that they go back to the city of their fathers but more of a Jewish tradition
And I like to believe if it was in the spring of the year
That it would have been the same time as maybe the Passover
I mean, what a better way to take a census than to do it at the time of Passover when most people are traveling
To Jerusalem anyway, they can go back to their land of their origin and
Then do a census. I kind of like to think that it's up. Maybe
The birth is at the same time as the Passover and maybe not just because of the census but because of the Passover
There's no room in the end ends actually Joseph Smith
The Prophet Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith translation. He makes that plural not just no room in the end
But in the ends or the cons
I mean the real translation of that is the con and back in those days the the Oriental Eastern way was you traveled in caravans
And I'm sure that it wasn't just Joseph and Mary alone. I'm sure they were in a caravan
You did that for protection. He did that for a lot of just practical reasons
And when you got there man, it wasn't just you you and your wife looking for a room
It was everybody else looking for room and there were been lots of other people there because the census maybe because of Passover
And they can't find any place to stay President Elson
Then elder Nelson gave a whole talk on this at BYU devotional talking about the caravan the cons and
Where they may have stayed and he kind of believed that they stay actually, you know, if there's no rooms available
That they would have just gone in the middle of a big
these
Ends or cons as they call them had a lot of rooms around the animals
I mean just just picture kind of a courtyard
filled with animals and you put the animals in the center or in the courtyard surrounded by rooms to
protect the animals from wolves from thieves from others and
President Elson believes pretty strongly that he was born in the middle of
All of these serums that were around them all these people and he's born in the center of them and laid in a manger among the animals there
But I think many others believe that and this is this is apparently a historical fact according to the writers
Ed or shy I'm far
Far believe this really strongly that who wrote the life of Christ who elder Tal means another mcconkey draw a lot of
Information from he believes that he was born in a cave and there are
there are hundreds of limestone caves in Bethlehem and
You did you guys go to yeah, yeah, and as a matter of fact those caves were used for similar reasons
You just mentioned a really used for the animals exactly
Yeah, they they stayed there people would stay there
They would have their animals in the cave with them
There's a good possibility when I went there
You know they they have a Armenian
Catholic Orthodox Church over the one cave that the Armenians these some traditions believe he was born in and if you if you go
It went down to the basement. Did you guys go to Bethlehem? Yeah? Yeah? Yeah?
I did the old Armenian church right burning incense. Yep. Yeah, and if you go down
You can see the cave where they believe he was born. Yeah, that's one place
There's another place where the Catholic the other it's a Roman Catholic Church things
He was born in the middle of a church which would have been kind of I maybe like it
What president Elson said, you know that he wasn't born in a cave, but in the middle of a con I know what I went there
And I went there a long time ago, and it was still fresh on people's minds
That president Kay had visited there David over Kay and that he had gone to some of the other
Limestone caves and he had identified he felt strongly that there was one cave and it kind of became known as the
You know president Kay's impression. I remember going there and seeing that cave which was
Who knows and again?
It's not that important. Although we would all love to know and maybe someday we will
But here's the important point and I think young Mckonkey
Really says this I could ever say it
Is that he the point is it was essential that he disanned below all things and in order to fulfill that
Scripture that truth that he was born in about the lowest
possible
conditions a Jewish baby could be born into
Among the animals smelly animals
no
No crib for a bed
that it was
He was laid in a manger
Mary would have been somewhat prepared for this and brought swaddling clothes
And I know there's lots people who make it important significance of swaddling clothes and the end I and I'm fine with that
I mean, I don't disagree with that but
Swaddling clothes really means rags and
I know she would have probably had more prepared for this
Baby than that. I think she knew that this baby was probably gonna be born in Bethlehem
She knew the prophecy and Mike it prophesied of that
the prophet Mike and prophesied that in the Mike chapter 5 I think it is that
That she would be born in that the baby would be born in Bethlehem. So her going down there
I think she knew the baby is gonna be born. I I don't think she just wrapped him in a bunch of rags
But they were poor
They were really poor
And they had nothing
And evidence of that is when they presented him in the temple 40 days after his birth
She
Sacrifices two turtle doves. Well, normally you would give a a burnt offering of a lamb and a
Sin offering of a bird and but if you're really really poor you can just sacrifice two birds
That's what they sacrifice evidence of their their
Their poor economic situation so
you know rapids while he closed lying in a major in the middle of
The animals and whatever is there speculation is that did they have people who helped them was there a midwife was there?
You know who would have helped Mary with all this? I don't know. Maybe angels attended her. I don't know but
but
The birth was lowly
Lowly
That's the point. I think that's a interesting foreshadowing to Jesus's life. Yeah his entire life
He spent with those who were marginalized with those who were less fortunate with the with the sinner
You know with the destitute with the disease with with all
Effects of the fall of Adam and Eve showing up in the human race. That's where Jesus spent his time
He experienced he had experience it. You know, it wasn't a what for Jesus. It wasn't an academic knowing
It was a he knew it because he had lived it too, right and through that and because of that
No, I know he's a son of God and I know the empathy could have been achieved
By way of being the son of God in any way that it needed to be but he did go through that
And I think that it's important maybe not for him
But it's important for us to recognize that he did go through that because now I can see a
God who you know went one for example, you know
Devin I mentioned earlier that we were at a funeral earlier in the week and somebody talked about how the person who had this young man
Who had passed away?
Did something for a homeless person, you know
And when we start when we when we do those things and and we say that's what Jesus would have done
Well, Jesus would have done that out of empathy as much as anything else because he experienced some of that himself even from the very beginning
Yeah, the king of kings
Lord of lords right a God
Born in such lonely circumstances made in a major
Well, there there had to be witnesses God knew there had to be witnesses for this
So and Luke too after wrapping him as falling from laying him in a major
We read about the shepherds
Did you guys go to shepherds?
Yeah, yeah, that was one of my favorite places
There was a way we were there in June we were seeing Christmas carols
And it was really sacred and as we were seeing Christmas carols up from the
Kind of the hill where we came here comes a little boy a crippled boy
with a couple of lambs
I'm going to be kidding me. It was just oh, it was one of my favorite
Experiences was to be seeing Christmas carols in shepherds field looking over at Bethlehem on the opposite hill
I mean all these cities Jerusalem six miles south is Bethlehem and they're they're built on top of these hills
then
Overlooking Bethlehem. I just
Well, it was so sacred so special for me and the testimonies we had a testimony meeting in shepherds field
Anyway thinking about these shepherds is quite amazing and I
I actually like to think I like the tradition or the thought that these are just shepherds
But maybe these are shepherds over seeing the
Pascal lambs or the lambs that would be sacrificed and offered at the
Temple I like that thought because ultimately, you know there this is like a calling for them and they're
everything that their whole
Lively hood and they're calling their their vocation is to the care for these lambs
Well, who else to be a better witness of the lamb of God?
Then these shepherds I
Just I love this part of the story
And then the angels appearing in that when I think of the angels I think where was I yeah
Where was I pretty mortally for this happen right? Yeah was it was a were we watching this?
I know I wasn't part of the choir, but I would have liked to have thought I heard the choir
You would have been there. Oh, yeah, you were in the choir for sure. Yeah, I know you were singing
Don't think about that think if you were oh
I
Would love to be in a choir of angels think about that. I'll bet you were yeah
I mean there was no resurrection then these are pretty normal spirits, right?
There could have been translated beings, you know, I guess I mean there could have been maybe this the choir from the city of
Enic, but I don't know
Could have been translated being seen yeah, but I like to think where was I well did I get to hear this choir and
And I just think it's one of the great parts of the Christmas story to this choir and singing
You know glory to God in the highest
Wow, I just
So these shepherds I like thinking the shepherd boys they would have been
Anyway prepared I believe they would be prepared for this and
And they act immediately what's the what's the words in
In Luke chapter 2 near the bottom of the of the page
And there's a second column where it says they they went immediately. I mean they
as soon as they had the
command to go and
Fear not and all of that peace on earth goodwill to work man
they
Haste
Yeah, they will with haste, you know like immediately like round. Oh man
They they were so I they had to be prepared to just you have that experience and then they just immediately respond
and I think they kind of know right where to go and
Maybe you've seen it in a vision and they find Mary and Joseph and the babe wrapped in swallowing clothes lying in a major
And it's interesting that they bring that up twice and Luke brings that up twice about the manger and swaddling clothes
Not just the Mary lay him in a manger, but they saw him in a manger. I mean, it's kind of a second witness
Luke wants to make a big deal out of that
I'm gonna read it. I want to read Luke chapter 2 verses 8 through
Whatever and they were in the same country shepherds abiding by the field keeping watch over their flock by night
And lo the angel of the Lord came upon them and the glory of the Lord shown round about them
And they were sore afraid and the angel said unto them fear not for behold
I bring unto you good tidings of great joy. What shall be to all people for unto you is
Born this day in the city of David a savior, which is Christ the Lord. We just pause right there
I love when I hear for unto you is born this day
Mmm unto who unto me unto me is born this day in the city
It is personal in the city of David a savior
My savior, which is Christ the Lord and this shall be a sign unto you
You shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes lined in the manger and suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of heavenly hosts
Praising God and saying glory to God in the highest and on earth peace goodwill towards men and it came to pass it as the angels
Were gone away from them into heaven the shepherd said on one to another
Let us go even unto Bethlehem and see this thing which has come to pass which the Lord hath made known unto us
And they came with haste and found Mary and Joseph and the babe lying in the manger
I read things and I like to kind of see the
Maybe a metaphor in there, but you know, I think of how often it is that I'm sore afraid
Yeah, sore afraid to accept for whatever reason my own inadequacies my my disbeliefs the way
My my in my inaccurate view of the way I see myself not remembering who I am
But I remember those times when I am sore afraid. Yeah, I'm sore afraid
But if I listen there's always heavenly hosts encouraging me to to come to him come to see this thing
Which has come to pass and and you know, I think it's important for all of us
I take it as a personal importance in my own life that that you know when it's dark when it's
When it when I'm doing my business is righteous and as sacred as it may be it can sometimes become a
Load, you know, it can be heavy and it can be but when I when I hear that always a bad thing
No, it's not but it's still heavy, you know, it's still weight
And when I hear that and then when I
Am and encouraged by that multitude or by the the heavenly hosts and I remember peace good will toward men
That's peace toward good will toward me and then and then
Well after that's happened if I will take that same attitude
Let us go now even unto where ever Jesus may be found and in this case
It was Bethlehem and see these things which have come to pass which the Lord hath made known unto us
You know, there's so much that can come to pass to us as we study the atonement of Jesus Christ
if we study our way and what it means in our lives to turn away from anything that the effects of the
The fall of Adam and Eve which we've spent the last three weeks talking about when we turn away from that when we accept the
Invitation to come and see this thing which has come to pass and then we hastily go there and
And whatever that experience brings us that when we are there in the presence of Jesus Christ
Who is the answer to all of the problems all of the effects of the fall of Adam and Eve?
What a joyful thing that can be not just for those shepherds
But for me and you and for all of us today, right? Yeah
And then it's recorded in the next verse or two after that that they
Immediately went into the city. Yeah, anyway, it's the night
Apparently and they go into the city. I love in chat in verse 17 when it's when basically the shepherds were bearing testimony of it
Right and they were I mean like you said earlier a witness
They're right. They were the witness and then they bore testimony of it and then on the next page
Then people that are hearing it are wondering
So we it was wondering. Yes
Witness. Yes, wondering. Yes
Yeah, I love that and how many of them maybe believed and went to help the baby as well
We don't know how many of them just oh, these are shepherds
These are silly shepherds and discounted it didn't go look you never never did enjoy the witness that they could have enjoyed
So anyway, I wanted to think I just have to
Focus on 19 because I have a picture upstairs that my son Dakota gave me and
It says in there and this is verse 19 that says but Mary kept all these things and pondered them in her heart
I think about how a mom just holds things so sacred so sacred
That's a good place to end. That's that's one of my favorite verses in Luke as well. Yeah
Mary
How's it how she said again? I love all these things in her heart, but Mary kept all
These things and pondered them in her heart. I'm sure she's still pondering
I would
You imagine that right what she's thinking
Deb sings the song Mary did you know
You know, she'll sit at the piano and play that sing that sometimes and and it's hard not to get emotional when you hear that
Because you you do wonder did you know?
Did you know Mary that your son would grow up and all of this would be part of his earthly experience and none of it
Would be comfortable and easy for him let alone you
right well, yeah, there's a lot more to this story and
Maybe we can finish that up next next week. Okay, we'll do it and
Talked about the the coming of the wise men, which is probably about a year later
You know the false tradition of Christmas which I love this tradition
Is that the wise men are there on the night of Jesus's birth?
But actually they don't show up and tell about probably
Within a year later just because based on the rest of the story and what here it does with infants who are to and under
so most people believe Jesus could have been maybe up to two years old or
Sometime after the first year of Jesus that the wise men possibly
showed up after seeing the star and
Taking maybe as much of the year to travel to where they needed to travel. Well, we'll talk about the
Yeah, we'll plan to do that. We have a Mary's magnificent, you know those great verses in Luke 2 about her praising God and
The presentation
Simeon and Anna and there there's just so much more in this
Yeah, there's there's no way and then you know, there's a few secular things that maybe we should take a look at too and tie them back as well
You know as part of our Christmas celebration, so so hey everybody. Thanks so much for being with us today Deb
Thanks for joining us. It's been a pleasure to have you
Wish you could do this more with us, but
game thanks so much everybody for being with us we
Plan to take this little kind of this walk down Christmas Lane
If you will as we had talked about these important things all leading up
I mean the reason we're really doing this which is timely
But all leading up it really to what we want to talk about soon, which is the Easter that's home of Jesus Christ
And and how he overcame the fall. Yeah, and we're excited about that. Thanks for being with us
We look forward to being with you again next week
I hope your holiday preparations are going smooth and and that you're feeling the peace and the spirit
That is intended to be felt during this time of year until we see you or talk to you again. Be well. Take care everybody