Hey there everybody and welcome out to another episode of Redeem Through His Blood.
Scott and David Durfey here as always excited to talk about these sacred and important topics.
How are you today David?
Good.
How are you Scott?
Good to be with you and everyone out there.
I'm excited about today's podcast and what we're going to talk about.
I think it's one of the five keys in regards to repentance and forgiveness in the course
that was developed and that I taught.
And I told Elder Anderson when we started to work on his book that I thought the first
key to really work out our repentance and forgiveness and to access the power of Jesus
Christ through his Atonement was to understand the fall of all mankind.
In fact, I remember when we were working on the book I had titled this chapter, the fall
of all.
I mean I wanted to be just really emphasize exclamation mark, exclamation mark, exclamation
mark, the fall of all.
And he reworked the chapter and sent the title back to me and it was entitled, Far From
Our Heavenly Home.
That's a fall for sure.
That's an apostle.
You know, I mean really, to make a point here, you know, he was so spiritually, I mean those
brothers are really so spiritually minded.
And it was just sweeter.
It was just sweeter.
It was kinder.
It was a little bit more inviting.
It kind of connected heaven to that whole process.
Yeah.
Instead of just saying, you know, we're mortals.
He was being spiritual by reminding us that, you know, his focus was the heavenly home.
That we're far from our heavenly home and we shouldn't forget our true identity while
we understand and accept the fall of all.
Anyway, I love this.
So we're going to spend maybe a podcast or two, I think, I hope on this.
Yeah, I think so.
That's usually the way it works.
It's really critical.
You know, President Benson, you can't, nobody can really appreciate the need for food unless
they're hungry, unless you're like me in these M&M peanuts you have right here.
You're eating them even though you're not hungry.
I know that.
But it's true.
You can't really understand and appreciate the Atonement of Jesus Christ unless you understand
and appreciate the doctrine of the fall.
It really is foundational to the understanding of it.
Oh, it's so important.
You know, when I'm teaching a class for work right now, and it has to do with finance and
technical analysis and all that stuff.
But there are certain things, checkpoints, if you will, that if we're going along and
learning a process, and in this case, we're learning life, we're learning eternal life,
but as we're going along and we're learning this process, and we miss some of the important
checkpoints along the way, then our learning experience is incomplete.
And if our learning experience is incomplete, it makes it more difficult for our spiritual
experience to be complete as well.
And so to understand these principles, it really is foundational.
You know, I know that I've kind of had the attitude in years past that, you know, yeah,
this is important and things of that nature, but now when we teach this in our Institute
class at BYU now to young single adults, now we're really emphasized the importance of
understanding the importance of the fall short, but the importance of understanding the fall
and all that it entails.
And appreciating it.
Appreciating it.
It seems like as though sometimes people want to run away from this doctrine.
Right.
And embracing this doctrine is one of the three pillars of the entire plan of redemption.
You know, the three pillars Elder Mcconkey taught us are the creation, the fall, and
the atonement.
Right.
And if you don't really understand and appreciate either one of those, then your understanding
of the plan of redemption of God's plan is incomplete.
Yeah.
I love the talk, the three pillars of eternity by Elder Mcconkey.
And he even talks about the fall in a way that I had never thought of it before.
I listened to this talk again for, you know, three or four weeks ago and in a way that
I had never really thought of it.
But you know, you're right.
Oftentimes we look at the fall and it has a bit of a, I don't know if I'd use the word
negative connotation, but there certainly can be to some a prickly feeling around it.
Right.
It just doesn't seem to be one that is as edifying.
That's right.
And I think that's the way Elder Mcconkey put it in context.
Yes.
In that talk, he called the fall of Adam and Eve the father of the atonement of Jesus Christ.
I love that.
I love that, Scott.
Thank you.
And I, I, you know, when's the last time you thanked Heavenly Father in your prayers
for the fall?
When's the last time you really thanked Him?
Heavenly Father, I'm so thankful that I've fallen.
I don't know that I've ever positioned it in the way that, Hey, Heavenly Father, I'm
thankful I'm fallen, but I, but how about this?
Hey, Heavenly Father, I'm thankful for the opportunity that I have today to go skiing
or to learn or to grow or to have this experience that I wouldn't be able to have other places.
Right.
Well, thinking about this podcast this morning when I said my prayers, I said, I'm thankful
for the plan, which includes the fall.
There you go.
And I'm thankful for opposition and I'm thankful to be human.
I just think we have to be grateful for this, Scott, and, and not run from it and not try
to avoid it.
I love what Stephen Robinson, I just compare phrase that I don't have in front of me, but
I love what Stephen Robinson said about the doctrine of the fall and in his book.
I think it was the one believe in Christ where he says, you know, in the church, there's
where there's where fall, the church is full of spiritual masochists is who don't even
want to be fallen and they beat themselves up.
They beat themselves up for being fallen.
I, I, it's crazy.
And it, but it's true, you know, and it's amazing how Satan.
And has turned this beautiful, precious truth and doctrine into something of disdain and
something that we, that we seem not to embrace.
And I just, it's so well taught by the prophets in the Book of Mormon.
And we just need to be more humble and more accepting that really we are nothing and without
the atonement of Jesus Christ, we're just, we're worthless.
That's those are the words of King Benjamin.
We'll read that later.
You're nothingness, you worthless creatures.
You know, I mean, that's kind of the way he puts it, right?
And, and that's okay.
That was part, that was part of the plans, God.
It's only okay though, if we understand what came from the fall.
In other words, when we understand the atonement of Jesus Christ, that's the only time it becomes
okay.
Exactly.
Yeah, you can't just get stuck in the fall.
No, you cannot.
You know, when we talk about the fall of Adam and Eve, the fall of us all, that we really,
we're really dealing with two, I don't know if I would use the word problems, but they,
but, but they can be problems.
And we sometimes can see in problems, one spiritual death, one's physical death.
And everything that goes on, that's wrong with us has to do with spiritual physical
death.
So let's just recap real quick.
Can we do this in our Institute class quite frequently?
So this helps us understand the necessity of the atonement of Jesus Christ and why it's,
it's so important that it's infinite, right?
So it includes physical death, includes anything that has to do with our bodies, you know.
Yeah, disease, sickness, poor eyesight, all the hand and cabs and mentally, physically,
emotionally, everything that goes with it.
And so I love how you just talked about mentally, emotionally and all that goes with that because
now we kind of gap over into the spiritual death because of the spiritual death, or in
other words, our separation, our, our literal separation, we don't dwell with God.
We come down to a celestial world.
And because of that separation, the spiritual death always also comes into play here.
And that can also contribute to some of those emotional, mental and other things.
So we get some, we get some overlap between those two things.
But here's the problem with the problem.
The problem with the problem is it's not really that big of a problem if we understand it,
but Satan wants us to believe that is.
And he will take those problems and he will horrible lies and magnify.
The accuser.
And there you go.
We read that last week, right?
The Ecuser.
So we get these problems and we see them grow and grow and grow before us.
And pretty soon we have lost all contact.
Yeah, absolutely, Scott.
So, you know, he, he accuses us that we, that we are worth, that we'll never be good enough.
That we, that that's who we are.
And it's true that we are human and we want to talk about that today and celebrate that,
that we should celebrate our humanness.
This is all part of God's plan.
There's no shock or surprise or God in heaven ringing his hands over the fact that we live
in a celestial world and that we are influenced every day by a celestial kingdom in a fallen,
hellish world as beautiful as it is.
Thank God for the creation as beautiful as it is as much as he's given us and all the
gifts of the Spirit and everything that he has blessed us with.
I love Elder Anderson's quote on as the world becomes more evil because of the Atonement
of Jesus Christ, he compensates us with more of the Spirit of the Lord.
I love that.
But Scott, we, we have to really embrace the truth that we were meant to be fallen.
God wanted us to be fallen.
You know, it's really, you know, I know I love that this is now in the Temple Endowment,
right?
That in the Temple Endowment, they read Eve's great declaration.
Let's just go to Moses chapter five real quick and read verse 11.
Moses chapter five, this is, this is how we should feel about it.
You know, when Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden, they didn't go kicking and
screaming.
You know, Eve had come to kind of learn and embrace this idea that they had to multiply
and replenish the earth and they had to be miserable.
I'm second, if I chapter two now, that they had to be miserable to no joy and they had
to have children and they had to experience the thorns and the thistles and the sweat
of thy brow.
They had to experience all that.
And when they left, they left the garden in joy.
Why do we, why do we get so down and depressed because of the world that we live in?
There's so many great opportunities and blessings because of this hellish mortal fallen experience
that we're having that God has allowed us to taste the bitter that we might know the
sweet.
I have an answer to that question, but before we, before we answer that question, I think
we should read the scripture.
Why don't you go ahead?
Well, let's, let's, let's say, let's read verse 10 about how Adam feels about it.
Verse 10, Moses chapter five.
And in that day is the day that they've made sacrifice and they're now in mortality and
thrust out of the garden and in the celestial world.
In that day, Adam blessed God and was filled and began to prophesy concerning all the families
of the earth saying, blessed be the name of God for because of my transgression, my fall,
my eyes are opened.
And in this life, I shall have joy.
And again in the flesh, I shall see God.
Verse 11, which is so sweet.
And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad saying, we're at not for our transgression
or fall.
We never would have had seed and never should have known good and evil and the joy of our
redemption and the eternal life, which God giveth unto all the obedient.
I love that.
Those two verses.
That's why she could have joy because of their redemption, right?
Because they understood their redemption and the eternal life, which God giveth to all
the obedient.
And in other words, to all those who qualify for for Christ's power that comes through
his atonement, which offsets every single one of the negative effects of the fall of
Adam and Eve.
She understood that.
And that's why she could they could say they understood.
That's why they could say and the joy of our redemption and the eternal life, which God
giveth to all all the obedient.
So there's the thing, you know, we think about and I've had kids, people actually, even in
my ward, etc.
Say to me, you know, but the fall of Adam and Eve, you know, the effects of the fall
of Adam and Eve are just so difficult.
Their life is, you know, and they're not saying that they're not using those, but they're
telling me things like my depression is overcoming me, my worry about my children who are wandering.
That's overcoming me.
You know, the financial situation is the physical, the illnesses, etc.
Everything is associated with the fall.
And we see these things and we bemoan them.
And when we bemoan them, it makes it easy for us to have, I don't know, almost even
be resentful towards the fall of Adam and Eve.
Unless we go to the garden and unless we go to the cross and unless we go to the tomb,
we will never be able to appreciate the fall or even have an appreciation for the fall
of Adam and Eve.
Dave.
Well, and even worse, Scott, if we don't have an appreciation and understanding for the
fall of Adam and Eve, you cannot fully, you cannot fully understand and appreciate the
atonement of Jesus Christ.
So honestly, not, not understanding fall is, is probably the greatest stumbling block to
really embracing redemption and the atonement of Jesus Christ.
So Scott, I know that it's part of our, I don't want to, we've been talking about identity
a lot for a reason.
And that is if you can really get a glimpse of who you are, your eternal potential, your
eternal identity and not get stuck here in your earthly mortal identity.
And you can see back into your pre, get a glimpse back into your pre-mortal existence.
By the way, Scott, I, I was thinking about it this morning.
You know, we, I shared some stories about giving a patriarchal blessing and getting
glimpse of a, of a young woman in her pre-mortal existence and, and how delighted her heavenly
parents were in her.
And we shared the story of my son, Devon, who received a patriarchal blessing before I was
ever a patriarch, which completely flipped him, changed him and set his life on course
to become the man that he is.
We shared those experiences and I, I don't think you have to have a patriarchal blessing
that describes your pre-mortal existence.
I just kind of want to maybe do a little course correction here.
I don't think you need a patriarchal blessing that, that talks or describes in detail your
pre-mortal existence to get a glimpse of your pre-mortal existence because the prophets
have talked about it.
The scriptures have talked about it.
If we just, if we'll just study it, we can, we can get a glimpse of ourselves with a,
in spite of what your patriarchal blessing may say or not say.
So I just, I just wanted to maybe make that disclaimer.
Your patriarchal blessing makes not say anything about your pre-mortal existence because mine
sure doesn't.
But I've, I've had a, I've had a glimpse.
I mean, I haven't seen myself, but I know I was for ordained.
I know I was among the elect.
I know I was among the chosen.
I know I came down here for a purpose.
I know there's no mistake when I came down here in the time and the condition that I
came down here, that the gospel would be on the earth and that I would have a purpose
and a mission.
I wish we all know that and we need, we need to seek to know what our purpose is in some
detail and God will reveal that to us.
We can get our own personal revelation without getting a revelation called the patriarchal
blessing that will reveal to us, help us to get a glimpse of who we really are.
So that, and that, that glimpse can come in different ways, right?
For sure.
I mean, it can come in our own personal study and that should, it's more likely to come
in a culmination of ways, you know, as we listen to the prophets talk about and apostles
and other leaders, inspired leaders talk about these things that, that should help us.
You know, Dave, where I got my glimpse of my pre-existence was when my, my dad would
teach me about the pre-existence and the pre-mortal life when I was just a little kid, we'd be
driving to Salt Lake to the dry cleaners or we'd be working out in the field and, and
I had, I had endured these very long lectures.
Yeah.
I'm sure.
The same ones you endured from your head.
And, and you know what, and I never, I never really despised those.
I really, I really didn't.
Yeah.
There were times when they would fill long, but I never despised those.
Long and sometimes old.
Yeah.
And repetitive.
Which is all, which is all fine.
My kids can say the same thing about me, but, but what I did learn there and I'm, and I'm
learning that I learned this in my older age, but what I learned there was my dad really
helped me see myself in the pre-existence.
You know, we talked about that at length, you know, he would talk about scripture, he
would talk about what probably happened there and none of it was conjecture.
It was all scripturally sound.
So my, so the reason I bring that up is because maybe, you know, we have a lot of young parents
who listen to this podcast and maybe parents, we can help our children.
That's good.
We can really, that could be a takeaway from today's conversation is maybe we can help
our children strive for that glimpse of themselves.
Yeah.
In spite of the temptations and trials and hellishness of this world, in spite of what
the world tells them that they are.
Exactly.
And that brings to mind us a story.
I think I've shared this in maybe previous seasons, but I was good friends with a bishop.
We were, our, we office right across the hall in the church in Minnesota, where I served
as a bishop.
He came in my office and we sat down and he kind of broke down and shared that his greatest
trial were not the challenges in his ward, but the challenges in his family.
And then he had a son who was not keeping the commandments, his teenage son and how
hard that was for him.
And just, just kind of, he just needed to talk.
And I remember sharing with him the recent quote of Boyd K. Packer back then.
This is in the late 1990s.
President Packer had said before that, 10 years before that, President Packer had said,
true doctrine understood changes behavior.
And so I remember more than this study of behavior changes, changes behavior.
Right.
And I remember kind of talking about that with this bishop father who was, you know, a little
bit, maybe like Alma, who had an Alma the younger.
And remember thinking, in fact, really, if you look at, if you look at the chapters in
Alma chapter 39, 40, 41, 42, where Alma is his experience and his teaching to his wayward
son, Corianton, it is all focused on the fall and the atonement.
It's so true what you say, Scott, if, if parents would teach their young children the reality
of the fall and the atonement and who they really are.
Why would we leave it to the world to teach our children who they are?
True doctrine understood changes behavior.
And this is this doctrine of who we really are.
And that includes the fall and the atonement of Christ and redemption.
Anyway, I remember talking about that with this bishop and that instead of maybe talking
about this son's behavior when he would come home really late in the morning after partying
with his friends, maybe instead of talking about his behavior, what if he talked to his
son about doctor?
I remember it was a week or two after that.
It wasn't long.
Within weeks, he was back in my office.
He sat down and again got emotional and shared with me an experience he had with his son
just the previous night that his son had come home after midnight.
And he, he was drunk and and instead of getting after him or getting mad or overreacting to
his condition or behavior, he simply said to him, let's just let's just call him John.
He said to him, John, do you think you sat on the fence in the premortal existence?
This son, you know, I don't know.
And his father said, well, I know you didn't.
And his father went off and taught him who he was and the doctrine of the premortal existence
and how valued and true he faithful.
He must have been in the premortal existence.
Scott, it had a sobering effect on his son.
And it's been that that boy that boy changed it just flipped it.
It really flipped him.
And soon afterwards, he he was on a mission and was a powerful missionary.
I just I've never forgotten that the effect of that conversation.
You think of Alma the Younger.
I mean, what is Alma the Younger?
What is he experienced?
What he experiences, he says, right?
This is an Alma 36.
What he experiences is he can remember the teachings of his father concerning one Jesus
Christ.
That's what changed Alma.
It's not the angel striking him deaf and dumb or whatever.
It's the teachings of his father.
Now I'm sure some of our listeners have not had fathers who have given them the teachings
of the doctrine.
But they have fathers, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, prophets, seers and revelators.
All of our listeners are children of the covenant.
And we have the new covenant, which is the Book of Mormon.
And we can learn from the prophets and the fathers in the Book of Mormon and in the scriptures
about who we really are and get a glimpse of who we are.
And to just kind of put that into context now, part of our identity now really is that
we are fallen.
That we are prodigals.
We are.
We're all prodigals.
We're all lost sheep, Scott.
We're all sinners just helping sinners.
That you've got to keep that in mind when you speak of identity.
Because if you forget that, if you just think you're an absolute spiritual being a saint,
then what happens when you sin or when you're tempted or you're affected by sin?
I've seen people just come unraveled, just completely fall apart because they either
keep giving in to the same temptation.
They think, well, that's just the way I am.
That's just who I am.
And they throw in the towel and they give up and they have no regard for the atonement
of Jesus Christ because they haven't understood who they really are and the role of the fall
of Adam and Eve and the fall of all in their life.
I think it's really critical to celebrate our humanness and to know that we're sinners
and that we're prodigals and that we really need Jesus.
And if we would over receive him and know that we can merit nothing of ourselves, but
because of him and his blood, we are saved, we are redeemed, that if I will just repent,
bow my head and say thank you like my wife does when she sins, she bows her head and
says thank you or renew our covenants when we partake of the sacrament and know that
we're forgiven and that the blood of Christ is applied in our life and our garments are
washed white.
I don't know if you anyone that doesn't see that or understand that.
Wow.
It life is is going to be overpowering.
The world is going to be overpowering.
And it's going to be too difficult to really.
I mean, I think a lot of people who are maybe leaving the church are leaving the church Scott
because they don't really understand the role of the fall who they really are and that they
are fallen that they're lost and all of a sudden the temptations and the sins that they experience
all of a sudden become too much of their identity.
We should never accept our eternal identity being determined by the temptations that we
experience daily.
Or even how we respond to those temptations.
Or even how we respond to those.
That we should celebrate that we're human and know that we're affected by that.
But that's not who we really are.
But so many people, you know, the accuser, he turns our temptations into our identity.
All of a sudden we have these temptations to do this and do that and we think, wow,
I must be a pervert.
I must just be scum or else they just think, well, that's just who I am.
So that's just who I'm going to be.
And they just accept it.
So I just think it's so crucial to understand the fall and to celebrate it without allowing
it to become the pervasive view of ourselves.
Understanding the fall is important and it can definitely help us in all of that.
But there's a key to that too.
I mean, so, you know, we understand the fall, which is the father to the Atonement of Jesus
Christ according to Bruce Armiconchi.
But now we have to understand the Atonement and we're coming to that.
We're getting into that as we move along.
Yeah, I'm excited to do that.
But you know, as parents, Deb and I have this conversation a lot and inevitably, you know,
when we talk about what is the one thing that we could give our children, you know, if you
could just give your kids one thing, what would it be?
You know, if you had a dream, what would you give?
Good to be talking about this before Christmas.
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
What gifts can we give our children?
Because the gift of identity is right up there.
If it's not at the very top, it's really, really close to the very top.
Not just identity.
True identity.
True and unadulterated, understood identity, who we really, really are.
Which includes not just being a son or daughter of God.
I mean, literally.
But it's also to teach them that as a human, you're not going to be perfect.
There you go.
And you're not going to be sinless.
Yeah.
I think it's so important we teach our children that because if we're teaching our children
that they have to just, we just talk about keep the commandments, keep the commandments,
keep the commandments.
Yep.
And we don't teach them that they're fallen and that they're not always going to keep
the commandments.
I mean, this is a perfect time to maybe share the story with the Boyd K. Packer in a devotional
at the MTC.
That was a branch president at the Missionary Training Center.
Boyd K. Packer came on a Tuesday night to do a devotional.
I'll never forget this.
Got it.
It flipped me as a parent forever and does as a grandparent continually.
Anyway, he's talking to the missionaries and he tells the missionaries, we're not going
to judge your success by the number of baptisms you have.
We're going to judge your success by the quality of your parenting and grandparenting.
We're going to judge you by what kind of parents or grandparents you become.
That's the measure of your success as a missionary.
It was, missionaries were really just remember looking in their faces.
I was sitting on the stand and looking into their faces.
And then he said, and on that note, I have some parenting advice for you.
And he has said this in general conference about the same time as about in 1989.
He said, we now live in a world that is more wicked than it is righteous.
And you are going to raise your children in a world that's conditions are slippery.
And it's going to be really hard.
And you're, you're going to raise your children teaching them to keep the commandments, but
they're not always going to keep the commandments.
So here's my advice to you.
If you don't do a better job teaching your children the atonement of Jesus Christ and
how to access the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ and his atonement, you're going
to lose your children because they're not always going to keep the commandments.
Oh, man, that went into my heart.
My wife was with me and my sweetheart.
And she wrote that down and man, that went deep into our hearts.
And little did we know, you know, our children were young then.
Little did we know how much, how much truth there would be in that.
And I've had my children, you know, thank me for, for if it weren't for the atonement
of Jesus Christ God, I would have lost some of my children for sure.
Because they didn't always keep the commandments.
My children didn't, your children didn't.
None of our listeners' children are going to keep all the commandments.
And if all we teach them is that they have to keep the commandments, then they don't
understand that they're fallen, that they're prodigals, that they're lost sheep, that they're
sinners, and that they need the atonement of Jesus Christ and how to access that in their
life.
Wow.
Yeah.
No wonder.
I know there's other reasons.
I know there's lots of other factors.
I'm not, you know, but no wonder so many are leaving.
And, and just one quick note before I forget.
We have this, I have this friend in our ward and she was kind of thinking about leaving
the church.
And she invited me to come over and talk to her about it.
I mean, bless her heart.
You know, she, she was open about it.
She didn't necessarily want to, but she was thinking about it.
I remember going over there and talking to her and her husband, the young couple, both
three term missionaries and special, special couple, a beautiful couple, spirit in their
home and all of that.
So, so great.
And I just remember, you know, telling them it's not about the church, it's about the
atonement of Jesus Christ and what the, what the doctrine that's been restored teaches
us about the atonement of Jesus Christ.
It's what the Book of Mormon teaches us about the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Just focus on the Savior.
Focus on your need on the Savior and how to, how to have a relationship, how to have a,
a more special relationship with Him.
Just focus on that.
Anyway, we talked a lot about that in, in our last Fast and Testimony meeting, which
I guess was just a week and a half ago, two weeks ago, few weeks ago.
She stood up for her testimony and she talked about how just focus, she was, she was talking
about how she was kind of leaning towards leaving the church, but focusing on the Savior
and the atonement of Jesus Christ.
Not only how she changed, not only changed her about how she felt about herself or, or
her Savior and Redeemer and her relationship with God, but it changed how she saw everyone
in the church.
It changed her perspective how she saw the church.
It changed how she saw the world.
It changes everything, Scott.
So I just, we, we have to, we have to know who we are, but we also have to know that
because of the fall of Adam and Eve, that we're not going to be perfect.
We're not going to be sinless.
That's not our identity.
That's just the reality and that because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, we can actually
celebrate this mortal, hellish experience.
Yeah.
You know, you're, you're talking about your friend and your ward and about how focusing
on the atonement of Jesus Christ is really key and it really is key.
You know, we, we do talk, the restoration was important.
We needed the Book of Mormon.
We needed all of the things that came as a part, even a deeper and greater understanding
and more clear and concise understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ, but not just
that, but the ability to access those powers.
Exactly.
Restored covenants, ordinances, sacred ordinances.
Yep.
And we enter those, and we enter those covenants through those ordinances and those ordinances
are extremely important for us to have as well.
So as we talk about all of the trials and, you know, and confusion around faith can be
one of those, you know, confusion around faith, confusion around my ability to keep commandments
or a certain commandment, you know, all of these things play in.
And if we only focus on, if we only focus on the, the fall of Adam and Eve and, you know,
if all of our focus is just on the effects of the fall, then of course we identify there.
Yeah.
You know, of course we do.
Of course we identify, well, yeah, I'm broken.
I'm, I'm, I'm a result of the fall.
I'm a product of the fall of Adam and Eve.
Of course I'm broken.
Of course I'm a mistake.
Of course.
And then we get down on ourselves.
And so until we have the ability to look to the atonement of Jesus Christ and hope that
He comes through that, then the fall is hopeless until we can come to that understanding.
So it's important for us to understand that.
Absolutely.
In fact, Scott, I wrote something, you know, since you're talking about brokenness and
being flawed, I wrote something a long time ago.
It was early in the morning, I don't know, four or five in the morning, then I woke up
and as I like to do, this happens often, regularly.
I like to ponder and, and I've had a lot of revelations playing it better in the morning,
Scott.
Yeah.
And I like to get my phone and go to notes and write down some of my thoughts.
And one morning I wrote this down and I wrote down, we're not broken and we're not flawed.
To say we're broken or flawed, the notes that sinning and being fallen was not part of God's
perfect plan.
That's right.
Sinning and flawed should never be our identity.
We are weak.
We are fallen.
We are sinners.
But that was all part of the plan.
I mean, every father knew that's the way we would be.
However, we should never allow our sins or our temptations or our weaknesses to become
our identity.
Man is spirit.
We are of divine parentage that will never change.
We cannot be broken like a toy or flawed because we were created by God.
There you go.
God doesn't make junk because we are human of the flesh.
We will be tempted and sin when we break commandments or we break covenants.
Okay.
We may not be broken, but we may break commandments.
We sever or break our relationships with theity.
The at one month restores and reconciliates makes whole those relationships when we have
a broken heart and contrite spirit.
Hearts can be broken, but not spirits, children of God.
Having a broken heart is a positive, not a negative.
Broken hearts are not mended.
They are replaced, God gives us a new heart.
That's in the Ezekiel.
Believing or saying we are broken or flawed may make it too easy to rationalize or minimize
sin.
Even as a fallen sinner, we should never see ourselves as damaged goods.
God loves a broken heart when we sin, but he hates it when Saint convinces us that because
of sin, we are broken or flawed.
I know that's kind of what you're saying, but I remember having that strong impression
come into my mind.
I know there are songs about being broken, you know, some great Christian songs even
about being broken.
Maybe what we should think about is I want to have a broken heart.
There you go.
But I'm not broken or flawed.
That's right.
We are not broken, we are not.
What keeps us in that broken state or that broken vision of ourselves is when we are
stuck in that one part of eternity only.
The fallen part of eternity only.
The smallest part.
The small, very small part.
Such a small part.
But when we get stuck there, we don't have vision beyond it.
We don't have the memory before it, which creates a deep vision before or I mean a deep
vision after it.
So if we get stuck in the middle of everything, then life is going to be really terrible.
Even in life's challenges, if we have the remembrance of who we are and all that that
entails, if we have because of that remembrance and understanding of the redemption and all
that that entails, which is, and let's not forget the importance of the enabling powers
of Christ's Atonement that come to us, that help us to overcome the feelings of the effects
of the fall of Adam and Eve, then if we stay stuck there, then we're just stuck.
Well, I love the Scripture.
It's one that I memorized years ago, Scott.
You know this.
I think this may be a favorite of many missionaries, it seems like.
And if men come unto me, I will show unto them their weakness.
Ether 1227, I give unto men weakness.
I love this.
I love this line right here, Scott.
I give unto men weakness that they might be humble.
And if they humble themselves before me and have faith in me, I will make weak things,
become strong unto them.
And the one thing I left out of that verse, Scott, which is my absolute favorite part
of the entire verse, which is right in the center of the verse is my grace is sufficient.
And grace in the Bible dictionary is the definition for grace in the Bible dictionary
is the enabling power.
My grace is sufficient for all those who humble themselves before me.
If we I mean really it's as sinners as prodigals as lost sheep.
If we will just humble ourselves before God, knowing that he has given us weakness.
He has provided the fall.
The fall was part of his plan.
If we would kneel in humility, accepting that.
Knowing that's part of his plan and then relying on him.
Scott that is a totally different approach to life.
It would it it change it would just change all of us.
So I I love the doctrine.
I love the doctrine of the fall and the Book of Mormon teaches it, you know, so powerfully.
The first place it appears is Lehi.
I think it's just awesome that Nephi preserved the teaching of Lehi.
It's in the if you want to read it, Scott, it's a first Nephi chapter 10.
First Nephi chapter 10, I think it's verses five and six.
Do you want to look that up?
And let's read first Nephi chapter 10.
Is it five and six?
Yeah, it is is five and six.
And and he also spoke concerning the prophets how great a number had testified these things
concerning the Messiah of whom he had spoken or this Redeemer of the world.
Wherefore all mankind were in a lost and fallen state and ever would be and ever would be.
Wow.
Save they should rely on this Redeemer.
That's Nephi quoting Lehi right off the bat in the Book of Mormon.
If you don't accept the fall, you can't rely on Christ.
And if you don't rely on Christ, I just it's there it is.
The Bible.
I love the Bible, Scott, and I know it's true.
The Bible is the word of God.
But the fall is somewhat missing.
The doctrine of the fall is somewhat missing.
I know Paul comes really close to describing it in in lots of verses.
They are, you know, I love 1 Corinthians 15.
I think it's 2021, you know, where where he talks about, you know, our need for the Redeemer
as an animal die as an animal die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Well there it is.
That's the truth.
But the Book of Mormon in greater detail in the in somewhat greater plainness and simplicity
teaches this doctrine of the fall in the relationship of the fall at the atonement of Jesus Christ
and the Messiah.
Let's let's look at, for example, how about 2 Nephi chapter 4, you know, where Nephi himself
I don't want to say celebrate because some people think he's in a state of depression
here.
He just fathers just died and and he probably is a little sad melancholy.
And in 2 Nephi chapter 4 verse 17, if you want to read that, Scott, nevertheless, not
withstanding the great goodness of the Lord in showing me his great marvelous works, my
heart exclaimeth, O wretched man that I am, yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh,
my soul grievous because of mine iniquities.
So I know, I know it doesn't sound like he's celebrating the fall there.
O wretched man that I am, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh.
However, he is acknowledging in a powerful way that he's that he's only human.
That because of the flesh, that that there are weakness, that there's sin, that there's
all of that in him and that he knows he's going to die.
He knows his father has just died.
The flesh can be hard.
You know, we know that the reason we came down here and there was a fall was so that
there would be opposition so that we could fully have our agency tested and our agency
could be fully operative that we would have choices, but that it was through the fall
that again, that we would taste the bitter that we might know the sweet.
But look at look at what he said.
I mean, verse 18, what does he say in verse 18?
He's kind of talking about the fall here.
He says, I'm encompassed about because of the temptations and the sins which do easy
it, which do so easily beset me Nephi and all the prophet sin.
It's just as part of mortality, Scott.
And to think that that way, like brother Robinson said, to be a spiritual masochist and and
think that we don't even want to sin or that we will never sin.
Just sets us up to fail because the sins beset all of us so easily in this life.
Well, there's even sin in that thinking.
There's even sin in that thought.
Right?
There is.
Yeah.
I mean, that's just part of our flesh.
I know.
But okay now.
Okay.
So in 19 he goes on verse 19.
He gets into.
But.
Well, this kind of bridges it really well, too.
He says, when I desire and when I desire to rejoice, my heart growneth and we're all
that way.
Right?
Yeah.
When we have the desire to be happy, when we have the desire to be joyful, broken hearted.
Exactly.
My heart growneth or because of my sins.
His heart's broken because of my sins.
Nevertheless.
And this is key.
This is the this the atonement.
Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.
I'm going to read 20.
Oh yeah.
And 21 actually.
My God hath been my support.
He hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness and he hath preserved me upon
the waters of the great deep.
Now I'm just going to pause right there because God preserves us in our wildernesses and in
our waters of the great deep.
You know, we look at Nephi and think, well, this guy, he was pretty special.
You know, he had a prophet father.
He had all this stuff going on.
And that's all true.
But Heavenly Father does not love me less and has provided me with similar opportunity
through the atonement.
And when I say similar opportunity, at least similar opportunity to know in whom I have
trusted and we find the comfort that comes from that.
Yeah.
Sorry to interrupt.
So remember, remember, Scott, that the real key to Nephi is stated in the very first verse
of the Book of Mormon.
I knew I was favored.
I was favored of God.
See it's back to his identity.
Exactly.
It's back to his identity.
How could he go through the wilderness?
Because he knew he was favored, even though he was in a wilderness, even though sins did
easily beset him, even though he did make many mistakes and it was, I'm sure, in dark
places and some of it his fault, some of it is not his fault.
I mean, it was mortal, but he knew who he was.
Right.
I just think it's that's kind of the key was his identity.
And by the way, on that thought, that was the key to Jesus himself.
Yeah.
The reason Jesus was able to overcome all that he overcame and the reason that Jesus
gave well, Jesus, he didn't even give he did, but he was tempted.
We're going to talk about that.
Jesus suffered temptations.
That's Paul in Hebrews.
He suffered temptations.
That's King Benjamin.
It's all Alma.
But the reason Jesus was Jesus was because he knew who he was.
He knew who his father was at age 12.
Should I not be about my father's business?
I mean, he knew.
I think other Maconkey says by the time he's eight years old, he knows he knows he's the
son of God.
He knows who he is.
And that is what gives him power.
And he has all of those traits.
But anyway, I think identity is so critical.
Our eternal identity is so critical to get us through our mortal celebration of being
human.
And then the celebration would not be possible if we didn't know that we had a redeemer.
Anyway, you want to read the rest of that verse?
So again, I'm going to go back to 21.
He hath filled me with his love even unto the consuming of my flesh.
And then 22, he hath confounded my enemies unto the causing of them to quake before me.
Now when we think of Nephi's enemies, we think of obviously people.
But when we think of our own enemies and even Nephi's enemies there, we should think of number
one, the enemy of us all, and we should think of all things that come from that enemy.
All those things that do so easily beset us, you said that earlier, those things that do
so easily beset us, quake before us if we know, A, in whom we have trusted and we have
put our trust in him and we believe and have had the opportunity and the experiences through
covenant experience, etc., to take upon us his name so that that can be taken place in
our own lives too.
Well, and I love, I'm just going to read a few more, just kind of skip through the rest
of a few verses here in 2 Nephi 4.
Oh Lord, wilt thou encircle me around in the robe of thy righteousness?
Verse 34, Oh Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever.
Verse 35, the last verse, I will cry unto thee, my God, the rock of my righteousness.
You know, Nephi learned from his father, Lehi, who taught Nephi's younger brother, Jacob,
that it is because of the righteousness of thy redeemer that thou art saved.
And Nephi knew that, Nephi knew he wasn't righteous, but that he could trust in the rock of his
righteousness, which was Jesus Christ.
Well, hopefully the fall helps us to feel that, Scott.
Hopefully the fall, like the prodigal sun, when we see ourselves, which I see myself
regularly feeding with this wine, giving some too much credence to the sins and problems
of the world, hopefully the fall helps us to come unto ourselves, to know who we really
are and to not forget who we really are and to proclaim as the prodigal did, I'm going
to return to my father.
I'm going to return to my father.
And I know that he, like that great parable in Luke 15, the prodigal son, that he is
standing there looking and waiting for us to come back.
We've just kind of introduced the fall, Scott.
We didn't get to half the scriptures that we'd kind of outlined to get to.
Well, we can continue this next week, and I think it'll be important that we do.
Maybe just in conclusion.
You know, I love the, I love the primary song, I'm trying to be like Jesus.
And we've been taught that we should try to try to be like Jesus.
And it's true.
And he, and he actually exhorted us, right?
To be perfect as I am perfect in the parable at the temple in the Book of Mormon in 30
12 and in the Bible in Matthew, in Matthew chapter five verse 48, be therefore perfect
even as I or your father who is in heaven is perfect.
So so we know, we know that we should strive to be to be like Jesus.
And we all love that amazing primary song.
And I remember President Irving quoting it and getting really emotional when he quoted
it.
I think it was in a priesthood meeting years ago.
I'm trying to be like Jesus.
Well, I, I love the song, but we're not going to be like Jesus who gave no heed to temptation.
It's just not going to be mortally possible that we in this life become like Jesus.
I hope that I can be his hands.
I hope that sometimes by the spirit, we can be his voice.
I hope that we can serve and take on the characteristics of Jesus Christ and really
make that an intentional part of our daily life is to seek to become like Jesus.
But I was bringing this up with a group of seminary and institute teachers that I was
teaching the course on the divine gift of forgiveness to.
And I said, you know, I, I love that song, but I wish it said something about the fact
that we're all fallen that we're all lost and we're not going to be like Jesus in this
life.
And I had a seminary teacher who, who wrote me and he said, I wonder if I could write
some words and capture the concept of redemption in the song.
I'm trying to be like Jesus.
He says it's far from perfect, but here's what I came up with.
So here's another verse is how many verses are there in that?
Oh, I have no idea.
Anyway, this would be the third or fourth.
Yeah.
And I wish they would add to that primary hymn.
And I really love this, Scott.
And this is my good friend, Tucker Boyle, who wrote this.
I'm trying.
I hope you can hear the kind of music because I say it.
Okay.
I should play it in the back.
Maybe you can hum it.
Yeah, well, probably not.
I'm trying to be like Jesus, but stumbling along the way.
I struggle to live as he did in all that I do and say, but though I may falter and make
a wrong choice, I find hope and forgiveness as the still small voice whispers trust in
the Savior and know this is true.
His grace is sufficient for mortals like you.
His love is still constant, repent and fear not for these are the things Jesus taught.
That's the doctrine of the fall.
Yeah.
And the atonement.
I'm grateful that Tucker shared that with me.
I love that song.
I'm trying to be like Jesus.
And a couple of years ago when you first shared that, that Tucker had written, I love the
song even more.
I know.
I think about it every time I've seen or heard a song.
I think of that verse.
I kind of want to print those words and have my have our Institute to students saying that
to one at one night at beginning of class.
But anyway, I need to talk to my good friend, Ryan Agat, who has some assignments, church,
Salt Lake headquarters, putting the new hymn book together.
There you go.
Maybe you say if you're going to put that in there, you should include this verse.
What?
What would you see if you could get that?
But thanks so much for being with us today.
We've barely scratched the surface.
We've got a lot more that we can and probably will talk about when it comes to this very
most important topic, you know, the understanding who we are and it's how that relates, how
our identity relates to the experiences that we still experience that we still participate
in as a result of the fall of Adam and Eve.
Or the spiritual death and the physical death and all that's entailed and involved with
that and that is answered by the Atom and the power of Jesus Christ that comes through
his Atom.
We'll probably carry this out again next next episode a little bit as we move into this.
But what an exciting experience it is to one more time go through these very important
concepts.
Dave, do you have anything finally you want to share?
No, thank you.
I'm forward to continuing this next week again all of this to help us to learn really how
to rely on Jesus Christ and strengthen our relationship with him.
Would you all please just take a moment this week as an assignment and maybe even contemplate
this as we're partaking of the sacrament as we retain a remission of sins there that
on Sunday, but maybe we could just be thinking about how am I responding to the effects of
the fall of Adam and Eve.
And to thank Heavenly Father for the fall.
And then to cast our vision forward to the redemption and how all of that, although
those things can be made right and whole for us.
Thanks for being with us.
We look forward to being with you again next week and until then be well.
Take care everybody.