Hey, good morning everybody. Welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood.
Scott Durfey here joined us always by David Durfey. What's up Dave?
I'm a little melancholy.
Why?
Oh, Scott. You know, life, life is, is good, but it seems to, it seems to speed up the
older you get. I, my grandson enters the MTC today.
Oh.
And I was just thinking on the way over today that, wow, wow, our third grandchild going
on a mission. And it just seems like, and I'm thinking about, you know, pretty soon.
Uh-huh.
Well, you know, it's one thing, you're raising your children, you're in the middle of it,
you think it's never going to end. And then, then all of a sudden one starts to leave and
before you blink, they're all gone. And then you start having grandchildren, you have those
great, great events, family events, you know, spaced out during the month or the year or
whatever. And you, you cherish that. And then your grandchildren start to leave on missions
or get married. And then all of a sudden you, you, I mean, what's, what's the, we know
what an empty nester is, right? When they lose their children. But what do we, what
do we call those people who lose their grandchildren?
Well, first off, let's rephrase that. You're not losing them. Okay. And second off, you're
not being put out to pasture as a grandpa or anything like that.
It just feels like, you know, so yeah, I'm sure.
It's never the same.
No, I know, I know.
It's never the same.
I know. And it's, there's some, there's some deep irony in all of that because, you know,
remember back to when you were a young father and you had young children, I'm doing the
same as I'm asking you to, but remember back to those days, sometimes those days felt like
months.
I know.
And then sometimes those years felt like days. And that's kind of,
You look backward and it's like, where did all that time go?
I know. I know. I always say that my children's childhood was one of the most wonderful weeks
of my life.
Because it just seems to.
That's the way it looks when you look backwards.
Hey, but I did see some great news. Your granddaughter got to experience who's on a
mission.
Yeah.
Got to experience somebody entering the waters of baptism.
She I think she even put on a post.
I got to be with so and so as so and so took made their first covenants.
She's having an amazing mission.
I am so happy for her.
Why wouldn't she?
She's an amazing.
She's an amazing person.
And she's so positive and so happy. And this last week, she found 12 new people to teach.
She said in 24 hours.
So I don't know what 24 hours means. If she was looking in the middle of the night for
them or I don't include sleeping hours or if that includes days of work, but I don't
care how you measure that.
That's pretty remarkable.
That's pretty, that's, you know, and that's that's up by the harmony Pennsylvania.
Yeah.
And she's staying in little, little town there.
Susquehanna.
In fact, the pictures that she took were apparently on the river.
Yeah.
She goes to church.
Yeah.
Where the church history site is Susquehanna River site.
Did we go there?
We did.
Yeah.
Yeah, I thought so.
Yeah.
Those pictures.
Yeah, we went there.
Remember the Susquehanna River?
Oh, yes, I do.
Of course.
That was one of my most most wonderful experiences of my life was standing there.
It's one of my favorite.
You know, what had happened was here we go down a rabbit hole, but what had happened
was is just prior to that, only weeks prior to that, I'd been set apart as our elders
corn president.
So when we stood there on that river, the weight and it wasn't a heavy weight, but
there's just the enormity of the blessings and the beauty that comes from the power of
the priesthood.
I for some reason just being there, it just brought all that to me.
Anyway, yeah, that was that was sweet.
I still remember that.
I it's always fun to take people there and to give them give them a half hour of just
quiet time to walk up and down the river or set by the river and ponder the power and
blessings of the priesthood in their life.
Yeah, that was wonderful.
Anyway, she's doing great.
And so I'm just a little melancholy because, you know, my grandchildren are leaving us
when they come home.
It's awesome when they come home.
But it's different.
Yeah.
It's never quite the same.
And I've I've been thinking about that on the way over here today, thinking, you know,
not only how can I be a better granddad, but how could I have been a better granddad?
Isn't that kind of human nature?
It is for us.
I know that.
It seems like, you know, I mean, I've been a fine.
I've been a good granddad.
You've been a great granddad.
I'll say.
And yet and yet whenever you start going through these melancholy moments or experiences,
you know, where where there's change, you always you always think, you know, how could
I have been better?
Yeah.
And I don't think that's bad.
You know, I think, you know, Paul invites us in the New Testament.
I love it where he invites us to examine yourselves.
That's good to examine yourselves.
It's good to kind of review.
And so when I say I could have been better.
I'm not beating myself up.
I think that's the difference.
Yeah.
You're just acknowledging the well, you know, I guess I'm acknowledged my humanness, which
is the obvious, right?
We all could have done better.
We can always in almost everything that we've done, we could have done better.
The point is though is and we'll get back to this as we go through the podcast, you
know, especially when it comes to things that matter like being a dad, being a granddad,
being a husband, all of those things, you know, it's our job to do the best we can.
And where we can't, that's where the compensatory enabling and redeeming blessings of Christ
at home come and kind of make up the difference, right?
There's no such thing as a perfect person.
Nope.
There's no such thing as a perfect dad.
There's no such thing as a perfect husband.
Nope.
There's no such thing as a perfect granddad.
My wife can attest to that.
There's no such thing as a perfect husband.
Anyway, but today, yeah, well, I just want to say this to what part of the reason you're
melancholy and this is true with Dave because I've had kind of a pretty close view to this.
Your buddies with him, you guys are friends.
You have the ability, David, to be good friends with your grandkids like your dad did.
Your dad was that to me, you know?
Yeah, I can see that, Scott.
And that's important.
And you know, that kind of that bond, that buddiness bond, if you want to call it that
or whatever.
It's true.
And he, his middle name is my name.
Oh, it is.
I didn't know that.
Okay.
Grandson.
Yeah, I have a good name.
One of them.
And so, you know, I, that doesn't, that doesn't mean I love him anymore, but it just means
he has my name.
And there's something about that, Scott.
We probably should remember that when we get into what it means to take upon ourselves
the name of Jesus Christ.
Because when you, when you share your name with someone or somebody shares your name
and they have been given your name out of respect, you know, it, there's something about
that relationship.
Yeah, there is.
So anyway, I have a, I have a two year old grandson who is a Scott Durfey.
Yeah, I do.
Yeah.
He's two.
And yeah, he's, he's, he's kind of my namesake.
That's for sure.
My wife calls me Wreck-It Ralph because I'm not super careful with stuff.
Yeah.
And I don't know if there's even that on steroids.
So yeah, it's kind of fun.
Anyway, let's get to the podcast.
All right.
So we're really starting the course today.
I mean, everything else we've done has kind of been introductory.
And so now we really start the course.
And when we talk about redemption, we have to talk about the plan of salvation.
And I think most people, when they think of that term plan of salvation, they immediately
think of premortal existence, mortality and postmortal existence.
Right.
You know, where did we come from?
You know, why are we here?
And where are we going?
And and I included that.
And who are we?
Right.
So we're going to, we're going to start there with talking about the plan of salvation and
especially the today.
And we'll see where we go and maybe even next time to some degree, talk about the premortal
existence because I think Scott, it's one of the most precious truths of the restoration
of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
There's evidence that the early Christian fathers believed in it.
Well, we know that Jesus Christ and the apostles taught it, that they made reference to it.
We have scriptures on it that we treasure and know our sacred and true.
But even even some of the early Christian fathers and bishops of the of early Christianity
believed in a premortal existence.
But through the apostasy, after after only three or four hundred years, that truth was
lost was taken out.
So I think it's really one of the great doctrinal nuggets of the restoration.
So and I believe the reason it's so important, we maybe should state this right off the bat.
I think the reason it's so important is because when you know who you are and when you really
believe that you have spiritual DNA of a God, when you understand what the soul is, the
soul, when we say soul, it means something totally different than what other Christians
or other religions define as a soul.
We believe that man is spirit.
I mean, that's doctrine come in section 93.
Man is spirit, that we were before even a spirit, we were an intelligence and that we were created
somehow or organized as a spirit from an intelligence by heavenly parents.
And it took a mom and it took a dad to create our spirit.
And that through this creation, and I don't know, Scott, I know we don't know all the
details, but I just think that's significant.
When I just said it takes a mom and it takes a dad to create a spirit from an intelligence.
And nothing more has been revealed to us before being an intelligence or really what an intelligence
was or what state of existence we were in as an intelligence.
But we know we were created an offspring of God.
Those are Paul's words in the Bible, right?
That's Acts 17, that we are the offspring of God, which means an offspring of heavenly
father and heavenly mother and knowing that truth, believing that not just not just knowing
it but really believing it and allowing that to affect our relationship with them.
It should inspire us, Scott, to do better and to want to be more.
This is something that kind of makes our restored gospel a little different.
There's a differentiator there.
If you think about how all of this came about, we have Satan, we're going to talk about how
a third of the hosts of heaven were eliminated from the opportunity by their own choice,
eliminated from the opportunity to come here.
It seems like if that was your goal was to throw down or to get rid of all of heavenly
fathers' teachings and important principles that would help us draw back to him, that
would be maybe one of the first things that you would want to erase.
It would be the existence of our spirits in a spirit world living with heavenly parents
in a pre-existence.
If he can erase all that, then that begins, that's the very beginning.
They were just animals.
Exactly.
Pre-existence and creation was the father to the fall.
The fall was the father to the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
The Atonement of Jesus Christ is what allows us to go back.
If you can just mess it up from the very beginning, and I think that that's part of the problem.
If you're Satan, you sure don't want people to know about how they participated in a grand
council of heaven and how they overthrew him and defeated him in a war in heaven.
We've said that today's lesson, I think it's important for two major reasons.
Number one, to know who you are, knowing who you are, the offspring of heavenly parents
should inspire us, should help us, should strengthen us.
Second, which we'll discuss today, is understanding to a greater degree the council in heaven
and the war in heaven, and understanding those events that happen in the pre-mortal existence
to the best degree that we can.
We'll tell us a lot about what we are experiencing here in mortality.
If we really understand the council in heaven and how we honored agency and how God especially
honored agency, and then we understand the war in heaven, which was all about trying
to destroy that agency, it will really help us and strengthen us here in mortality.
Because what we see, really the essence of what's going on here in mortality right now,
and it seems to be accelerating, and it seems to me to be becoming even more obvious, that
it's all about overcoming others and taking away their agency.
Whether that's through, whether that's Satan's effort in causing addictions, all the addictions
that destroy agency, whether that's in war, whether that's in force, or however that may
take place, it's pretty obvious that Satan wants to own us and destroy us by taking away
agency.
Yeah.
Well, and there's that, you know, I think he wants to own us, and I think he wants to
destroy us to take away agency.
But I also think that there's a lot of this that has to do with his, I don't know how
to put it, his way of snubbing, I don't know the better word, you know, snubbing God,
you know, making it to...
Well, ultimately he would like to destroy God's plan.
That's what I mean by this, you know.
And so I think that it's really his way of saying, okay, God, you didn't let me have
it my way, I'll show you, you know, that kind of thing.
And you know, and I'm with you.
You know, I think that there's been a great acceleration, and maybe it's just because
we become, as you mentioned earlier, as we become older, maybe we just become more sensitive
to these things.
But I don't think so.
I think that we can take a metric look at what's happening in our society today, and
we can take a look at the faith challenges that we're seeing among people in our own
faith.
Yeah, true.
And you see sin taking on new flavors and new appeals and new, you know, enormous type
of attractions that to people that maybe weren't quite as susceptible to that before in the
past.
But now we're seeing it more.
Denying the truth that man is spirit, that ultimately Scott, it really comes down to
that.
Man is spirit.
Man, woman, we are all spirit.
That the soul of man includes a spirit.
That's right.
That's what we created from heavenly parents.
Denying that truth really opens us up to all of the power of the world and the worldliness
and temptations of the world.
I mean, I was driving over here today thinking a little bit about this, and the song that
came on the radio was material girl.
What?
I am a material girl.
And I yelled at the radio.
You are spiritual.
You're a spiritual girl.
You are not material.
Anyway, you know, I mean, what's the philosophy of the world is that we're just a potassium
and some salt, water and flesh and that we have evolved from a lower form of life.
And when we die, it's over or anyway, man is spirit, Scott.
So let's just maybe we should start with that scripture.
That's in doctrine comes section 93.
And I just, I mean, I think that, you know, when this revelation was received back in
1833, I think it must have been mind blowing to some people because they didn't have any
concept of this in 1833.
And verse 36, the glory of God is intelligence, or in other words, light and truth, light
and truth forsake that evil one.
Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning.
And God having redeemed man from the fall, man became again in their infant state innocent
before God.
And then if I go just back to verse 32, and every man whose spirit receive with not the
light is under condemnation, for man is spirit, the elements are eternal and spirit and element
in separately connected receive a fullness of joy.
That that's just is a revelatory.
I don't know a better word.
That was just that was a revelation that I'm sure many people had no concept of then and
so much of the world has no concept of it today.
Man is spirit.
So if we if we believe that, and because of the restoration, we have some idea of what
we did as spirits, who we were as spirits, what happened when we were spirits in a premortal
world or premortal existence.
You know, I wish we had maybe a better title than that, we could describe that state or
that place where we lived before we before we came here.
But Abraham, let's go to maybe Abraham Scott chapter three.
People will remember this from their seminary days.
It's always been a scripture mastery scripture.
Now, Lord, it's short of me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was so
intelligence organized.
That's that's the term he uses that we were and that would make us a spirit and an organized
intelligence is a spirit.
So he sees in his spirits and he describes him as intelligences that were organized before
the world was.
And among all these, there were many of the noble and great ones.
Now I know that we think we think of prophets and apostles and and sisters, amazing sisters
of the restoration.
We think of all of those individuals.
But Scott, I've given enough patriarchal blessings to know that most individuals who overcame
Satan in the war in heaven were pretty noble and pretty great.
And the youth that are coming down to the earth today were definitely among the noble
and the great ones.
I know that's true.
That has come to me so many times in giving patriarchal blessings.
Verse 23 of Abraham three and God saw these souls that they were good and he stood in
the midst of them and he said, these I'll make my rulers for he stood among those that
were spirits.
Man is spirits, Scott.
They were spirits and he saw that they were good and he said unto me, Abraham, thou art
one of them.
Thou was chosen before thou was born.
Now we learned that in the Bible with Jeremiah that before I formed the in the belly, I knew
thee, right?
That's right in Jeremiah one.
But here it is again, this idea, this doctrine of four ordination.
Now that just that in and of itself, forget the premortal existence for a minute.
The doctrine of four ordinations, Scott, can be a powerful motivator to change us as individuals
to believe that we were four ordained to do important things that we were chosen before
we were born before the world was created before as the scriptures often uses the term
in describing Jesus and others that before the foundation of the world or before the
foundation of the earth that people were chosen, that there was a plan that we were four ordained.
We'll look in another scripture on that in Alma.
And then he goes on to describe that those who keep their first estate and our first
estate would be our premortal existence, that's in verse 26, that they who keep their first
estate shall be added upon and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory
in the same kingdom with those who kept their first estate and they who keep their second
estate shall have glory added upon their heads forever and ever.
So we often think of the premortal existence.
Here's another title for you as our first estate or as Alma calls it in Alma chapter
13 in the first place.
The first place would have been our premortal existence where we existed as spirits.
We know that in the premortal existence or first estate that there was a plan presented
to us.
We don't know a lot of details about the Grand Council in heaven, but that there was a plan
presented to us and that Satan volunteered to do the plan and he would get all the credit.
He says, we won't read all those scriptures, those are in Moses, that he would take the
credit and that people would give him the glory.
Even God would give him the glory.
It was obvious that it wasn't so much a plan as God as it was a rebellion.
I don't think Satan had, I don't even want to give him the respect, call it a plan.
It was just flat out wicked rebellion.
It was war and Heavenly Father had already decided before Satan ever came into the picture
that his firstborn son as a spirit, that our elder brother Jesus Christ would be the savior
and the redeemer of the plan.
It was the Father's plan and he had chosen Jesus Christ to fulfill that plan.
Jesus humbly in the middle of this rebellion or this war says, you know, I will go and
I will be thy son and I will do thy will.
And it's just totally different attitude between those two.
I think we give maybe Satan just my personal opinion.
I don't like giving him a lot of credit or even saying that he was some mighty spirit
in the premortal existence.
I think he was extremely charismatic.
I think he was extremely influential.
But I don't, I don't, it says that he was one who was in authority, but not, I don't,
I don't think he was second to Jesus.
I don't think he was one of those mighty ones really.
I don't, I don't believe that Scott.
Now I know he was powerful and he continues to be and I know that he's effective in what
he does.
Right.
Now I know he has, this is not a compliment.
I know he has great talent to be wicked.
But his pride, Joseph Smith said that he, that he fell because he sought, sought excellence.
He sought to be in charge.
He sought to be the one who would get all the glory, all the credit.
And the son on the other hand was all the credit will be thine.
Thy will be done.
I will go father.
And it was totally out of humility and love, not just love for the father, but love for
all of those younger, younger siblings as spirits in the pre-mortal existence that Jesus
had acquired and that he was foreordained before the foundation of the world, before
even Satan rebelled.
Jesus was foreordained and Satan probably knew it, but this was Satan's effort to overthrow
it.
So let's see.
Let's should we look at, let's look at, let's look at Alma chapter 14.
All right, I've got it right here.
Do you have it?
14 or 13?
13.
Yeah.
So I'm going to start in verse two.
Yeah, perfect.
And those priests, so Alma 13 verse two beginning in verse two, and those priests were ordained
after the order of his son in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner
to look forward to his son for redemption.
In that verse alone, there is so much hopeful doctrine given to us.
Well, think about that as an Elder's Court President.
What's my purpose in Elder's Court President?
To help people look towards Christ.
For redemption.
Period.
That's it.
Honestly.
And it's not just as an Elder's Court President, it's as a Sunday school teacher, it's as
a primary president, which Deb is.
What about a dad?
Or a dad?
Granddad.
Oh my goodness.
Mom, grandma, brother, friend, sister, friend, neighbor.
What should be our purpose?
Yeah, to help others to look towards Christ for redemption, right?
And everything else, you know, so we had a discussion in Sunday school this past week.
And the discussion was how do we help our children and grandchildren develop a greater
relationship with Jesus Christ?
And it's interesting to me, and I don't want to get into any details around this, but it's
interesting to me how when we talk about sometimes just because of the way we're programmed,
when we talk about how do we have a deeper or better relationship with Jesus Christ,
we immediately go to the stuff we can do.
We immediately go to.
Well that we're good at.
How?
Yeah, or that we're good at.
Probably more emphasis there, you know.
But you know, is my hair length exactly right?
Am I going to the temple with, I hesitate to get into any examples.
No, I am not.
But you know what I mean, right?
I mean, when we focus on paying the tithing, which is important and I don't ever want to
be quoted or misconstrued as saying, Scott said, that's not important.
It is important.
It's extremely important.
All of that's important.
But when we when we don't focus directly on that establishing that relationship or looking
to him on to him, we have redemption.
Then we're missing the mark.
That is exactly right.
One needful thing.
That's it.
One.
Now, to get to that one, to get to that one, there's some qualification and there's some
things that need to happen in our life.
But it's just by way of alignment.
We'll get there.
I'm going to start over.
And those priests, this is verse 2 and Alma 13, and those priests were ordained after
the order of his son in a manner that thereby the people might know in what manner to look
forward to his son for redemption.
Oh, I love that.
And this is the manner after which they were ordained, being called and prepared from the
foundation of the world according to the foreknowledge of God on account of their exceeding faith
and good works in the first place or in the first estate in the first place being left
to choose good or evil.
Therefore, they having chose good and exercising exceeding great faith, exceedingly great faith
were called with this holy calling.
What kind of calling?
I mean, you hear callings talked about, but this is one semi rare instance when we read
with a holy calling.
Yeah.
Yay with that holy calling which was prepared with and according to a preparatory redemption
for such.
There you go.
Isn't that powerful?
Yeah.
And the other instances are again mind blowing, especially being coming forth in in 1829.
Yeah.
When this was all translated.
Let me let me read for to I think that's that's applicable here and thus they have been called
to this holy calling on account of their faith while others would reject the spirit of God
on account of their hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds.
Now, if it had not been for this, they might have had as great a privilege as their brother.
Yeah.
And five says or or in fine in the first place or first estate, they were on the same
standing with their brother.
Yeah.
But because they harden their hearts, they they were lost, which is one third, which is
describing and just briefly there.
Yeah.
And the word the word heaven, well, it's amazing, Scott, that anyone who holds the priesthood
or enjoys priesthood blessings or enjoys ordinances or covenants, sisters who are set apart and
and function under priesthood keys.
All those in who in any way experience the power of the priesthood in this life were
foreordained in the first place or first estate, pre-moral existence to enjoy those
blessings here.
But not everybody who was foreordained will enjoy those blessings here.
Yeah, probably not.
You know, BH Roberts and some other brother in the church believe that being foreordained
was because of God's foreknowledge.
Yeah.
He knew that they would keep it or they wouldn't keep it.
And if they were foreordained, they're going to keep it.
I mean, there's there's some brother and I'm just telling you, I don't I my answer to that
the question is, will will be everyone keep their foreordination?
I don't know.
And it doesn't affect my salvation.
No.
There are there are some opinions that if if that's based on God's foreknowledge, they're
going to keep their foreordination.
And I don't know that's true.
In fact, I think it's probably been taught by others that that you can lose that that
that it's your agency.
I mean, God's not going to force you to do it.
But based on his foreknowledge, knowing all things from the beginning to the end, I don't
know.
Yeah, that's interesting, because prior to you just saying that, I would have thought,
well, you know, because of our ability to come down here and have make choices and have
free agency, free will and all of that.
But you know, this is how I choose to think of it, Scott, because because it inspires me.
I think Elder McConkey had a had a great test of great doctrine or whether it was true doctrine
or not true doctrine is, does it inspire you to be a better person?
And if it inspires you to be a better that was just one point of several of his points
on how to test doctrine.
And the this doctrine of of foreordination, if I think, you know, God knew I was going
to do it.
Yeah, yeah, good point.
God knew I could do it and that I would do it.
Yeah.
I think he knew, Scott, that you would overcome your addictions and hold priesthood keys and
you were foreordained to do that.
And nobody would have thought that 10 years ago.
Well, well, 24 years ago or 10.
Was it 24 years ago?
25 actually 25 years ago.
You just celebrated that just last Thursday.
So nobody would have believed that 25 years ago.
But but God wasn't worried about it.
You were foreordained to do that.
And he knew that not only you could but that you would.
I don't know.
That's that's that's something that inspires me.
Yeah, you know what?
Now that you now that you position it that way, I find inspiration in that too.
I have people in my life that I love dearly that aren't to obviously choosing to follow
Heavenly Father's path.
Yeah, we all do.
I do too.
But based on what you just said, you know, that that can also help us as parents, if
those people they'll come around.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, they'll come around.
God knows them.
Yeah.
And there, there, there, maybe they're failing right now, however you wanted to find that
or measure that.
Well, maybe maybe they're failing in their testimony.
Maybe they're failing or wavering in their faith.
But but God knows them.
So true.
Sunday, when we were done with our church, Deb and I went and spoke out of Fifth Sunday,
where we shared our experience, strength and hope around the Atonement of Jesus Christ and
a Dictionary, recovery and things like that.
And I had a couple of parents come up to me.
Just wonderful, wonderful people telling me about their son who had been sober for a couple
of years.
And you know, this is this is what any faithful parent would be concerned about.
You know, my son's sober now and he's making better choices than he had been in the past.
And you know, this stuff can be scary.
Right.
I mean, we lose people to death and suicide.
We have so much fear.
All that all the time.
But you know, but but now he's now he's sober, but he may not necessarily have aligned his
life yet with gospel principles.
Right.
And that that's happening, you know, and one of the things that we talk about in the rooms
of recovery is if we really have integrity, which is what we have to strive for, we really
have integrity and we really have a testimony, then absolutely one day we will be better
aligned with gospel principles.
But that can take time and to know that for ordination for our children is there can if
we if we view it right can take away some of the fear that we as parents feel.
I told this young couple, hey, I know how you feel.
You know, I've laid at night recently staring at the ceiling, just stewing over and freaking
out and worried about my own son who's now sober too.
But but you know, three months ago, I couldn't say that and that was a struggle.
I get that but knowing the four nation piece could be in place for these kids for these
people can really add inspiration.
It can it can change one's life and inspire you.
Now God's not going to force anybody to keep their four nation.
But but again, I'm what I'm banking on here, Scott, in in this idea.
And again, I don't know and there's no official doctrine on this, but I'm just going off what
inspires me.
Yeah, I know God knows.
And I know because he knows he's in control.
God is in control.
I know that.
And that that gives me a lot of peace.
It gives me a lot of hope.
He he's not going to manipulate.
He's not not only is he not going to force, but he is not going to manipulate the other
thing we need to remember when it comes to four nation is no one was foreordained to do
anything bad.
Now he may have known that they were.
You know, when we say four nation, was it real?
Was it an ordination?
Did somebody lay their hands on your head and ordain you?
Was there ordination involved this this idea of four nation?
We know so there's so much more we would like to know about the pre-mortal existence.
We have been taught that there that we made covenants there.
We have been taught that that we that we received, you know, certain blessings there.
Were we four ordained?
Was it not just based on is four nation not just based on four knowledge, but some sort
of ordination like a priesthood?
Yeah, I don't I don't know Scott, but either.
But this is what I know.
Yeah.
Is that when we talk of four nation, no one was foreordained to be a bad guy.
Right.
That's not how God works.
That's not how he he thinks of people.
A lot of people think that Judas was foreordained to betray Jesus Christ.
There's no four nation in any evil that might be done in this world.
That's now God may know that they will.
He may know because it was for knowledge that that may happen.
But you can't say they were foreordained to do that.
That's different.
So I don't know.
It's a it's a subject that I think can be really inspiring and helpful in understanding who
we are and to motivate us to to to seek to return home to our heavenly home.
But I I we just don't know if if everyone's going to keep their
four nation or not.
But I would like to think that most of them, if not all of them will because again of the
of the foreknowledge of God, I can't imagine him foredaining anyone to anything.
Yeah.
If he didn't believe or know that they were going to do it.
You know, we talk about that that provides I've been my mind's been going a million miles
an hour as you've been talking about this.
But you know, we talk about how this four ordination that can inspire us, especially
for people around us, you know, at least at first glance, you know, for example, you know,
if I have children who are struggling and I do, we all do.
And you know, if they are foreordained and that four nation is going to be kept that take that
takes a lot of worry out and fear away from me.
But but what's even more than that maybe.
And I had these thoughts when I was going through my own experience of overcoming addiction,
overcoming natural man.
I'm still in the process of that, obviously.
But I had those same thoughts and experiences, you know, what I would read and about or remember
about four ordination.
If I really am foreordained to this and I really am one day going to fly right, so to speak,
you know, that provides personal inspiration to Dave.
Right.
No doubt about it.
Yeah.
You know, so, you know, if that's how I'm going to, if that's how I'm going to be anyway,
why don't I just start now?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I love I've always loved this quote.
We've shared this before in previous seasons, but I've always loved this and Elder Maxwell
was present when this this thought was given.
This was given in a CES fireside many years ago.
This is a stake president to I can picture him and hear his voice.
Really popular humanitarian or humanities professor and stake president at BYU.
His name was Lell Woodbury.
Woodbury and President Woodbury in a commissioners fireside church education fireside.
This is what he said.
So I'm going to read it.
You tell me what you get out of it.
Let's talk about it.
Equally complete now is each of our lives before the Lord.
We are continually before him.
The totality of our psyches personalities bodies choices behaviors and outcomes are always before
him knowledge of this fact should change our entire approach to life.
For life becomes then not a cumulative additive process one in which we layer on increments
of perfection like successive coats of lacquer or varnish.
Life is rather a challenge to discover who we are not to determine who we shall become.
Who were we and what were we when we shouted for joy as the foundations of the earth were laid.
What feats what great feats did we perform in the great battle in heaven?
How did we keep our first estate?
Why and by whom were we for ordained to the holy priesthood to leadership positions to airship in the
house of Israel.
In what way are we created in the image of God?
How are we his sons and daughters?
How literal is our endowment to become kings priests and gods queens priestesses and goddesses?
The greater prophecy the greater prophecy Scott is not what we shall become but who we are.
And I would just put in parentheses and how God sees us.
The challenge is not to add on perfection but to strip away blindness.
I love that.
The challenge is not to add on perfection but to strip away blindness and corruption and to
discover who we really are.
The essence is greater than the promise.
We are better subsumed in being than we are in becoming.
Now I love the idea of becoming and all that President Oakes and others have said about we are
becoming and I know that.
But what he is saying here is we don't spend enough time in trying to understand who we were in the
pre-mortal existence and who we really are than to trying to continually prove ourselves in this life.
It's kind of a different approach to how you live life and the effect.
Knowing, having that knowledge of who you were, we're going to share a few experiences of
individuals who are close to us, individuals who I know, who because of the revelation they
personally received and the glimpse that they received in their patriarchal blessing or by
other means, when you get a glimpse of who you were in the pre-mortal existence,
Scott, you're not so worried about trying to prove yourself in this life.
No you're not.
You're just trying to be who you were.
That's different.
That's a different approach.
If we could just get a glimpse, if we could just part the veil for a moment and see who we were
and the participation that we experienced in the pre-mortal existence supporting sustaining.
Scott, I've given two patriarchal blessings the last two weeks.
Both of them were powerful in supporting Jesus Christ in their pre-mortal existence
and defending him and the Father's plan of redemption.
Now I know that about these youth that are coming forth to prepare the earth for the second coming.
All of that was foreordained based on the foreknowledge of God and their participation
in the pre-mortal existence and who they are as spirits.
And if we could just get more in touch with our spirit self and who we were in the
pre-mortal existence, oh Scott, I just think life would take on a different meaning in our
approach to living.
It would be different.
Oh yeah.
You asked me my take on what you just read and I have so many things, but I think it really
boils down to just one main thing.
We learn about who we are.
We learn about this foreordination and we learn about all of the great and wonder,
the great and wonder, a lot of the great and wonderful things that we participated in there
that prepared us to come here.
What we really learned there though, that we have forgotten because of the veil and we have
to come to a remembrance of and we do that when we are partaking of the sacrament, we remember him.
And so not only did we know a lot more about ourselves there, but we knew a lot more about him.
And understanding that foreordination may empower me and it does.
There is no question.
But what it does even more than that, David, is it points me away from myself and to him
in this life.
I love, you know, and I will read this real quick.
Adam Miller, I know you love Adam Miller.
I love Adam Miller, wrote a book called Letters to a Young Mormon.
And this is just one excerpt from it and I love this.
Keeping the law doesn't earn you heavenly merits and breaking the law doesn't
earn you hellish demerits.
OK, that's fine.
And that's for a conversation that we'll have down the road here.
But both merits and demerits are about you.
The purpose of the law is to point you away from yourself, free you from the self-obsessed
burden of your own story and center you on Christ.
Yeah.
And I think that's where that began, right?
You don't need to generate merit in order to be saved.
You need to instead to come to Christ and rely wholly upon his merits of him who is mighty to
save. So when I start worrying about, I got foreordained, I made promises and I come down here
and I've already screwed all that up.
I've already made a mess of all of that.
Then I'm seeing it wrong.
You're seeing it totally wrong.
Totally wrong.
And if I don't remember that from there, everything else is going to be difficult for
me to put into place too.
I mean, just just real quickly, you know, you take you take an example of my my son who we adopted
as fetal alcoholism, as as burgers, who struggled with bipolar and then all of his all of his
struggles, Scott, you know,
in the I'm not sure he sees himself, but the way he should.
But when I know the society doesn't see him, even close the way that God sees him.
But but his mom and I have received a glimpse of who he is.
And then I remember sitting out on the deck one day and us kind of talking to each other and
and saying, how isn't he going to be glorious in the resurrection?
Yeah. Oh boy.
All that pent up.
Isn't he going to be glorious in the resurrection?
Yes.
And honestly, Scott, I know I know this life is a test.
And I know this is scripture, right?
This is Moses sent him down there to prove themselves.
I know that.
But I, for example, Truman Madsen used to always say about the Abraham and Isaac and the great test,
the Abrahamic test.
Why would God ask Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac?
Why would God do that?
And Truman Madsen's answer to that question was always, well, God knew what he would do.
He didn't ask him to do that because God wondered whether he would do it or not,
whether he'd be obedient or not.
He did that so that Abraham could learn something about Abraham.
He did that so that Abraham could learn about himself and
himself and to become more focused upon this whole idea of the father sacrificing his son
and to focus Abraham on redemption through Jesus Christ.
I mean, Scott, that's what it all comes down to.
Yeah.
If, honestly, if we could just see ourselves the way God sees us, if we could just get a glimpse of
standing in the premortal existence, of raising our right arm or even going to war
to defend the plan of redemption and to defend the commission given to Jesus Christ to be our
Savior and Redeemer.
I mean, if we could see that, think of how that would inspire us and
pull us, strengthen us towards doing better.
It would do all that, but it would also provide a lot of relief.
It would relieve us from virtually any anxiety that we experience here,
with the exception of those that suffer from organic depression.
It would definitely relieve a ton of our depression that we experience here.
Fear gone.
If we just come to the knowledge of that, fear gone, anxiety gone, all of those things that
really beset us in this mortal existence would really not have any power over us.
Right.
Right, Scott.
So we probably should end today by turning to a book of Revelation in the Bible and reading just
those few verses about the war in heaven.
Most of this chapter is on the war in heaven.
It's Revelation chapter 12 verses 9 through 11.
But if you want to read those three verses, the Revelation chapter 12 verses 9 through 11,
then let's talk about what we learned about who we were and about the role we played.
And not just that we overcame Satan, but how did we overcome Satan in the pre-mortal existence,
which means really, how will we overcome him here?
This scripture, I think, can be life changing.
And the great dragon was cast out, the adult serpent called the devil and Satan,
which deceiveth the whole world.
He was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,
Now this is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God and the power of his
Christ for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accuses them before God day and night.
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony.
And they loved not their lives unto death.
So that last verse, verse 11, we learned a lot about God.
We learned a lot about the accuser.
The title given to Satan, which is perfect, how he accuses us.
And not not just there, but he continues to accuse us here that we aren't spirit,
that we are only, you know, flesh and blood, and that we anyway, he continues to accuse us.
He accuses God.
He accuses our savior.
He accuses everything and tries to make good evil and evil.
Good, but verse 11, they overcame him.
This is us, Scott.
This is this is all of those who have come to this world with a body.
They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb.
In other words, Scott, based just on that line, Brother Matthews believed that we were
repented in the spirit world.
That it wasn't just through the enabling power of Jesus Christ and his atonement, which had
effect on us in the premortal existence, but that it was through the redemptive power of
Jesus Christ and that we repented there.
In fact, he he taught that if you can commit the unpardonable sin in the premortal existence,
which Satan and one third of the host of heaven did, if you can commit that sin, there must
have been other degrees of righteousness and under righteousness in the premortal existence.
And we must have known something about sin, not the same, not in the same sort of physical
way that we understand sin here in this life, but there must have been some degree of it.
And it is to some extent, and I I don't want to get into all the philosophy of that.
But the point is, we knew that through Christ and the blood, and you know, he didn't have
blood there, but we must have seen it.
We must have seen the atonement.
We must have seen it. We must have seen the atonement of Jesus Christ.
And what when Isaiah describes the atonement of Jesus Christ and how we all looked upon
him, I think that's describing our pre premortal estate in existence when we all saw the atonement
of Jesus Christ before we were born, that we overcame Satan by the blood of the lamb.
We knew about the atonement of Jesus Christ and we relied on him.
That's number one. And by the word of their testimony, we had testimonies, God, in the
premortal existence. We bore witness. We were missionaries. We were sharing our testimonies
by the word of their testimonies. And in sharing those testimonies, we would have influenced
others. There was a war, a philosophical war of words, a war of beliefs.
So anyway, we had testimonies and it was not just by having them, but by the word and sharing them
that we overcame Satan there and Scott, that's how we'll overcome him here.
Right. And then third, and they love not their lives unto the death, meaning we were willing
to go to the wall for Jesus Christ and the father's plan of redemption in the premortal
existence. We were willing to give all that we had, even our whole souls, our whole spirit,
our whole life in the premortal existence before we came here. And that's how we'll
overcome him here. So who are we? We're his. It's a, it's a, Scott, I think that this one doctor and
which again, we have to acknowledge the role of the Prophet Joseph Smith and the restoration
that we even believe this or that we even know this.
That before we were born, that we were foreordained, that we were among the noble and the great ones
chosen, that we were, that we are spirit, that our spiritual lives are the thing that matters the most.
That these, all of these truths can maybe be appreciated and applied by this quote by President
Uchtdorf when he said, I testify that God sees us as we truly are past, present, and future.
And he sees us worthy of his rescue.
You may feel that your life is in ruins, he says. You may have sinned, you may be afraid,
you may be angry, grieving, or tortured by doubt, but just as the good shepherd finds his lost sheep,
if you will only lift up your heart to the Savior of the world, he will find you. He will rescue you,
he will lift you up and place you on his shoulders and he will carry you home.
I just testify, God knows us, God. He knows who we are and the fact that we're here and that we're
engaged in his kingdom, building his kingdom, in preparing the earth for the second coming of
Jesus Christ should give us some idea of who we were and what we were foreordained to accomplish.
This should give us so much confidence and humility and faith and hope and love.
So I hope our listeners will maybe reread some of the scriptures we shared and find their own
and ponder these truths and find their favorite quotes from the prophets on who we were and
as much as you can about our pre-mortal state and let that inspire you here in mortality.
And I think it's that remembering that sometimes we struggle with. I think it's often common. I
don't know if I would use the word easy, but it is easy too to sometimes forget and have a lapse in
memory of those experiences. I think that they've been the best way for me and maybe this can be
our invitation. You just extended one to go search the scriptures for this, but maybe one invitation
I could extend to is maybe we just add to our prayers this week. Heavenly Father, help me remember
who I am. Please just help me remember who I am and I promise us all that through the Spirit if we
seek and strive for alignment with him, with Jesus, with our Heavenly Father, with the Spirit,
that the Spirit will bear witness to us, whose we are, and also maybe empower us in ways to help us
to retain that memory, that memory, Dave. Instead of striving so hard to add on perfection,
maybe we should try to strip away blindness. And as always, have a great week. Remember who you
are. Remember who's you are. Remember that you have been redeemed through his blood and we look
forward to being with you next week. Till then, take care.