Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood.
I'm Scott Durfey and joined as always by David Durfey
What's up Dave?
Good to be here Scott.
Good to have an old friend with us today.
Yeah, I'll be careful on using adjectives like old.
Well, old enemy neutral.
Yeah, there you go.
There you go.
Hey gang, before we get started, I just want to thank you all for your responses, your
emails, all of that.
Just it's so wonderful, so great to hear from you.
Last week we were able to address a question from an email and we'll continue to try and
do that as we can.
You can send those to heredeemsus.com.
He redeemsus.com.
Well, listen Dave, this week is a treat for me.
I think it probably is for you as well.
We have a guest with us that has some notoriety in the church and his name is Jack Christensen.
I have had the opportunity to know Jack for a little over 25 years.
I'll have 25 years, I guess a little under 25 years.
I'll have 25 years sober next month.
In fact, one month from yesterday, as a matter of fact.
Awesome.
It's hard to believe.
Hard to believe.
After a few years of being in recovery, I had an opportunity to speak with Jack at a
fireside and I'm sure I have a brighter recollection of that than Jack because he gets an opportunity
to do that so much.
I felt like I was with a celebrity because I had listened to so many of his talk tapes
and stuff growing up.
I know Jack is Jack Jack the scripture maniac.
That's right.
Wow, I can't remember that.
You didn't know that.
Well, I know that about Jack and Jack and David know the scriptures to a degree that
I I hope to some day aspire to.
But anyway, that's Jack Dave.
I'm going to let you take it from here and say a few more words and then just kind of
get us rolling.
Thanks, Scott.
Yeah, thanks, Jack for being with us.
So honored to be here with both of you.
Jack are what is our stand for?
It's just our yeah, that's what I thought it's just a middle initial.
In fact, on all of my products that I have books and it has a period.
But I didn't learn until I started doing family history that my real name is just Jack are
yeah, no period, no period.
So I just leave the period on it.
But I'm Jack are my dad is Jack.
So I'm junior.
Okay, so well, I Jack Jack and I, I guess we knew each other when we were in high school
playing against each other in sports and he was my my nemesis and we had a lot of respect,
I think for each other then he was best quarterback.
I know we played against and it was always fun to beat him.
I know that he's the only one that did.
Well I'm going to save you all the research to these guys played in the day of one Gifford
Nelson.
That's right.
Yeah.
Gifford was a pro bow and Jack was the quarterback at Orem.
And I remember the, you know, coming over to Orem their homecoming and beating them
seven to nothing.
That was that was a big deal for us because we had a Merrick work was kind of small and
or was really big and one of the bigger schools in the state and had a great team went on
and one state and did all kinds of great things.
And anyway, well, it's only been 52 years and I'm still hurting, but that's okay.
I can be redeemed.
That's what I know.
Physically hurting or emotionally hurting.
Yeah.
It was mentally mentally.
I got you.
That's that makes sense to get beat by a little American fork.
He was probably really humbling for Jack, which was good for him.
Yeah.
Anyway, so we were kind of a nemesis to each other, but we've become great friends.
Jack went on, played a little college football.
He met the love of his life.
Melanie Harris.
Right.
And how many children do you have?
We have one son and five, four daughters, one son, four daughters and our children and
our, we have 19 grandchildren and four great grandchildren.
Jack has had many, many church positions and callings.
After after we taught seminary for a while and I remember observing him teach before
I actually became a seminary teacher.
He was a popular teacher.
I remember him holding his head, people's heads in buckets of water, at least that's
what I observed.
That's correct.
In order to teach them that when they desired God as much as they desired air using the
sock Socrates experience, you know, when somebody came and asked Socrates, how did he become
so smart?
He said, when you desire knowledge more than you desire air after you tried dunked him in
the ocean and he passed out and Jack was using that for testimony.
And anyway, I wanted to become a seminary teacher.
I've always wanted to become like Jack.
So anyway, it's just really an honor to have him here and he's served as a stake president
mission president and it's so sweet now, Jack that we share the calling of being a patriarch.
Well Jack has quite an education too.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Jack attended.
Oxford, PhD.
It's the private side of Oxford, which is Buckingham.
Buckingham.
Yeah.
And served as a besides being Institute Director at UVU, where I was also Institute Director.
He went over to the secular side, became vice president at Utah Valley University and then
was called away as a mission president.
I was actually the assistant to the president, special assistant to the president.
So I had my office right next to the president and it was great.
Yeah.
And had such a positive effect on the university from the community standpoint, building trust
and support from the community.
Anyway, Jack, it's just really an honor to have you here and we wanted to be able to have
you share with us some of your experiences that you've had throughout your life with
the redemption of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice.
You and I have spent enough time together.
I wish it was more, but we've been on a golf trip together and you hosted us when I came
back to New York and the sacred grove.
When you were mission president in the New York Rochester mission and anyway, we've had
enough time together that I know who Jack is and that Jack's had so many experiences
personally as well as experiences helping others to fill the love of God through the
redemption of his son.
So let's just start Jack by having you kind of share any experiences that you want as
examples of the redemption of Jesus Christ and the power of his atonement.
Well thank you, Dave and Scott.
It's a joy to be with you.
I think the most important thing that I can say to any listeners and to the two of you
is that I am an, I have an absolute certain witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ.
I am a living witness of his redemptive power, not only in my own life, but in the lives
of many, many people that I've had the privilege of serving with and my family.
I didn't have the great privilege that some of you have had of growing up in an active
Latter-day Saint family.
My mom and dad for whatever reason chose not to be active.
And as a result, they developed habits, they had issues all along the way.
We talk about Scott being sober for 25 years.
My father, both my grandfathers, my brother, some of my uncles all struggled with addiction.
And so it was very, very common in my life to see it growing up.
I didn't understand it, I do now, thank goodness.
But my two grandfathers just had difficult lives.
One was in World War I.
I never got the problems that war creates in the mind and the spirit and the very soul
of people.
And my grandpa, my grandpa, Christensen had some struggles.
But when he grasped the gospel, I think the premise of what I'd like to say about both
my grandparent, my grandfathers, my two grandmothers were as, I can't even talk about them.
They were as saintly as they get.
And I'll talk about them in a minute because that's what set the whole, my whole course
of wanting to help other people.
And by the way, Jack, the one thing I admire the most about you is the individuals who
I have seen you help.
Just the one on one.
You know, besides the masses, the books and the tapes and the leadership positions you've
held, Jack, I remember the one young man at UVU who used to come in the Institute every
once in a while.
Yeah, Dana Wilson.
And he would always call you when he needed help and you were always, how was Dana doing?
He's passed away.
He died of COVID.
He did.
And it was a really, I took him to be tested.
I helped him for 32 plus years.
I took him shopping every week.
What was his handicap?
He had cerebral palsy and a mental deficiency.
And he always, you know, you were like, you were like more than a brother to him.
You were like his dad, his brother, his, his lawyer, his housekeeper, his everything.
And anyway, that's, that's the one thing about you, Jack, since you, you just said it.
That's what gave you the desire to serve others.
You have been an amazing example to me.
Well, thank you.
Thank you.
It's been a privilege.
I mean, sometimes you worry if you are not worry, isn't the right word, but you wonder
if it does any good and it wears you out.
But my very first year of teaching, there was a sign on a teacher's wall in his office
that changed my life.
He said, you are not the interruption of my life, but the purpose for it.
And I have tried to live by that.
That a student isn't an interruption.
A troubled teenager isn't an interruption.
You're the purpose for which I exist.
And when you go to what president Ezra Taft Benson said, he said this, just as a man or
a woman does not desire food until they are hungry.
So they will not desire the salvation of Christ until they know why they need Christ.
And then he goes on and says, and no one properly and adequately knows why they need Christ
until they understand one doctrine above them all.
And that is the fall.
Exactly.
We've quoted that.
And then he says, and no other book on earth teaches that better than the Book of Mormon.
And so if we can somehow grasp the Book of Mormon and not just hold to it, but remember
the phrase from First Nephi 8, the group that held fast and continually to the iron rod
when they got to the tree, they realized it's not even a tree.
They fell down.
They fell down and worshiped because they realized it's him.
It's him.
And that's what can happen to each of us.
And I have needed the redemption of the Savior and his sacred blood.
Going back to my grandparents, when my grandfather Christensen got active in the church and overcame
some of his issues, I didn't really know him other than when he, well, that's not true.
When I was a little tiny kid, but as I got older, he died when I was 17.
And he had to use the redemption of Christ to overcome his addictions, to overcome his
traditions and his anger about certain things.
But he went to the Manti Temple with my grandmother and they were faithful.
Both of them died completely faithful.
My grandpa, Pinnaker, they lost, my grandma and grandpa Pinnaker lost a 15-year-old, a
four-year-old, an 18-month-old, and then a son in World War II, all within a short amount
of time, plus my grandmother's parents and sisters.
The four-year-old and the 18-month-old all died within like 18 months of each other.
And my grandfather did not handle it well.
And he began to drink.
My grandmother, on the other hand, it's very similar to in Alma where it says, because
of the exceedingly great length of the war, some got turned against and some became softened.
Some were harder, some were softer.
And so my grandpa went harder, my grandmother became the saint of saints.
And when my uncle Max and Rex turned 10 years old, they went to my grandfather and said,
we want a special birthday gift for our 10th birthday.
And my grandpa thought it was another bicycle because the two of them had to share a bicycle.
They were twins.
Yeah.
And some maybe don't know elder Rex Pinnaker.
Yeah, of the first quorum of the 70s.
And so they said, dad, we want a special gift from you.
And he said, oh, I just want another bike.
You can't share your bike?
No, we want you to stop drinking when we turn 10.
And to my knowledge, he never had another drink.
I only knew my grandpa Pinnaker as a superstar spiritually.
I have his scriptures that were what I got from him.
I have a talk he gave that was inserted in his pearl of great price that I treasured.
He died when I was 13.
My grandpa Christiansen died when I was 17.
But why that is so significant.
It is, I don't know why my parents chose the way they did.
A lot of it had to do with World War II.
My dad left for World War II active in the church and elder.
He played football two years at BYU before he left, came home with a ton of problems.
He and my mom had dated in high school.
Excuse me, that's not true.
They went all through school together.
And then my mom was divorced with two children at the end of the war.
And my dad came home from war and they married and they raised us not active in the church.
However, they got it together.
You want to talk about how it's affected my life.
I feel, I need to tell you a story.
If you don't mind me talking about my family.
I was a grown man with children when I learned this story.
And I want to share it because I don't think people appreciate why people do what they
do.
And somehow we've got to get to the point where we realize that this life is birth to
the final judgment and resurrection.
Too many unfair things birth to death.
In other words, Jack, we've talked on this podcast.
There's a difference between temptations and conditions.
Amen.
Section 46.
The Lord knows the condition of every single person.
He suits his mercy according to their condition.
And that is absolutely correct.
And so it's not going to be the same for everybody.
So when my parents got married, they didn't raise us in the church, but my grandparents
were incredible influences in my life.
My grandmother, Pinnaker would say to me, every time she saw me, every time, that's not an
exaggeration.
Oh, you're going to be a wonderful missionary.
Well, I don't want to be a missionary.
I want to be a football player.
But guess what happened?
Her influence made me want to go serve those because I realized why I needed Christ.
But let me tell you a story that I never told in public, that I think will be helpful to
your listeners.
I was a senior at Orm High.
It was during football season.
My dad was coming home from a meeting late at night and stopped at the bar, had too much
to drink, and hit a parked car not too far from our home.
And the police came, and the officer that was there saw my dad's driver's license.
And his name was Jack Christensen.
And the officer said to my dad, hey, he related to Jack Christensen that's a quarterback of
Orm High School.
He said, yeah, he's my son.
Now before I tell you what happened, let me tell you how I learned this story.
I was making fun of that officer and mocking him a little bit as a grown man.
Just do you remember this officer?
Because he'd picked me up a couple of times.
And I just kind of was teasing about him.
And my dad grabbed me by the shoulders.
He says, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Son, you sit down.
Let me tell you a story.
That man's the greatest man in Orm, Utah.
He says, you have no idea what he did for you and for me.
That officer, when he pulled my dad over, my dad got to the accident.
He saw that driver's license.
And he said, I cannot embarrass your son at this time during the football season.
You can ruin his life.
He said, Mr. Christensen, will you promise me if I take care of this and make it go away
that you will never drink and drive again?
And my dad said, sir, if I give my word, I'll keep my word no matter what.
I promise you I will never drink and drive again.
Thank you for caring about the reputation of my son.
Let me tell you how I feel about that man.
I didn't know it.
I'll never make fun of anybody again, ever.
Because I had no idea that that had happened.
And I had children.
And I was, I think I was a bishop at the time.
And my dad let me know.
And you talk about the mercy of Christ because that started my father on a softening process.
And both my parents started reading the Book of Mormon.
We had an incredible bishop, an incredible Relief Society president or ward.
The bishop just came to our home and said, hey, don't you think it's time?
And so they ended up, we were sealed February 27th, 1973.
And I and my sister were the only two of the five children that were sealed at that time.
And then one by one, they have all come back and been sealed to our family.
My parents went on a mission to the islands of the Caribbean.
My dad had never had a calling in the church because he would swear too much.
And so he became the greeter and his favorite line.
Everybody's favorite line was how the hell are you this morning, brother?
And the bishop just worked with him.
Then my uncle Rex calls my dad on the phone and says, hey, I need a couple down in Barbados.
Well, and I need them to get down there right now.
And I need you and Merle, my mom, to go.
His sister.
Yeah, his sister.
And my dad said, well, Rex, I got a little problem.
I still have a little problem with tobacco.
And my uncle just said, well, stop it.
The Lord needs you and he needs you now.
And my dad blesses art.
He did.
And they went down there.
He served as branch president of two branches at the same time.
And he would call me on the phone to ask me about how to do certain things.
He would read the handbook, couldn't understand it.
So he would ask me and I got to train my father.
They came home from their mission.
They moved to St. George.
They served 13 years in the St. George temple.
Now I ask you and they both died faithful members of the church.
The redeeming blood of Christ changed my family forever.
So when my mother passed away, my brother was with me and my younger sister, who has
always been a superstar.
She was just too young to be sealed without being endowed.
And of course, excuse me, she's the one that was with me when we got sealed.
My other sister, who is a wonderful woman, is a hippie in the 60s.
And she's finally came in and she's been on a mission to Sweden and totally active in
the church.
My oldest sister, she's 83.
She's had three marriages.
She has four children, four different fathers.
There couldn't be a greater woman on the earth.
And I've watched this process that you two talk about every week affect my own family.
Well, my brother was the last one.
He's a recovering alcoholic.
This one that lived in Denver?
He lived in Denver.
He was a car dealer in Denver.
He's been married and divorced seven times.
And he was with my mom when she died with me and my other sister and my wife.
And my mom just wouldn't go.
And my brother finally put his face down by hers and said, mama, just go.
And she didn't do anything.
And then he says, am I the reason you don't want to go?
And she just shook her head and said, yeah.
And then he said, I promise you I'll do my best to come back.
And then she died within a few minutes.
Well, he just called me one day and just said, I'm tired of living like this.
I got to have help.
He'd been sober for quite a while, but still had from alcohol and drugs, but still had
other issues he had to work on.
And he got divorced, sold everything, sold all of his business, his home, everything
he and his wife split.
He moved to a little 55 plus community in American Fork.
Oh, sweet.
He's a caveman.
And he is just, I have to tell the story.
Some people, some of your listeners have probably heard me tell it, but he decided, what do
I do?
I said, you need to go see your bishop.
And you got to confess everything.
He says, well, I can't confess everything.
I can't remember everything.
So I asked him a simple question.
Have you ever murdered anybody?
He said, no, not that I remember.
I said, okay, then just tell your bishop that.
So he goes into the bishop and tells the bishop, and the bishop didn't know what to
do.
So he sent him to the stake.
Let's start with that.
Yeah.
So we sent him to the stake present and Tom said, could you go with me to see the stake
present?
Could you have been a stake presence?
I said, okay, I will.
And so we get to the stake present and my brother says, I've done everything you can
possibly do wrong, but I've never murdered anybody.
And he said, excommunicate me, do whatever it takes.
I just want to come home.
And the stake present and his sweetness to simply said, oh, brother Christians, and you
don't know enough to be excommunicated.
How about if we just work with you for a couple of years and we teach you the missionary lessons
and we teach you the temple preparation classes and that type of thing.
So that two year period, and this is not by coincidence, is the only two year period where
I didn't have some heavy ecclesiastical or professional assignment where I could be with
my brother every single day.
Well, maybe not every day, but most days.
We didn't miss very many in two years.
And this was how long ago, Jack?
This was in 2018.
That was divinely designed.
It was.
It was divinely designed.
It was absolutely orchestrated.
And so I was able to be with him, teach him, and our uncle Rex was dying.
So all of my siblings and I went up to see him.
And as we're talking, and my brother is using all the church jargon, my uncle Rex just said,
stop, stop, stop.
What on earth has happened to you, Tom?
What has brought about this change?
And my brother's response was so profound, I have to share it.
He simply said, oh, I don't know.
I just started doing what I've been taught to do my whole life.
And my life changed.
And I came to know my savior.
He said, I started reading scriptures.
I started praying, started attending church, started paying my tithing.
I couldn't serve in the church because of my past for a while, but I could clean the
church every Saturday morning.
And so we would call him some days and say, hey, let's go fishing.
Let's go golfing.
I can't have got to clean the church.
And so a couple of years ago, well, actually three or four years ago, he got prepared to
go to the temple.
And my cousin actually, who just lives across the street from where we are right now, Michael
Pinneger, was in the presidency of the Provo Temple.
And I was proxy for my dad and my sister was proxy for my mother.
And my cousin performed the ceiling.
And my brother heard these words or similar words as though you had been born in the covenant.
And he would no longer felt like he was a second class citizen in the Lord's kingdom.
No longer outside.
That's right.
Yeah.
That's right.
Well, and those are just some of the, well, Jack, let me ask you about the meat.
Let me follow up on that.
So how does the atonement really work?
I mean, you've alluded to to service your, your, your brother's statement, what he said,
you know, I just started doing everything I'd been taught to do.
You're an example of this.
Your family, your dad's an example, your mom and dad are example of this.
It sounds like the atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives was administered as they as
they served.
But how does it, how does it really work, Jack?
I mean, how, how have you come to the, what have you come to learn as you have watched
this about how does the atonement of Jesus Christ really change us?
How does that work?
Well, I'll tell you what I, what I feel, but the spirit seems to agree.
So let me go to Alma 34 verse 31.
It's Amulek's teaching and he's teaching with Alma.
So when Amulek and Alma talk about redemption and atonement, I listen.
Yeah, they're teaching this or am I?
And they've had to experience it themselves, both of them.
Remember, Amulek says, I heard, but I did not hear.
Right.
I would not know.
I wouldn't know.
I knew all these things.
I knew, but I wouldn't know.
And Alma the younger is going about secretly trying to destroy the church.
Right.
And then he has his great grand conversion, which is in the words of Elder Bednar, he
says, well, the reason Alma had his experience and excuse me, Paul had his experience and
they didn't have the still small voice like the rest of it is that they were so messed
up, they could never have discerned the still small voice.
They had to have an angel or the savior come to them because of it.
So when they teach, I listen.
And Amulek says something so profound in Alma 34.
He says, yay, I would that you would come forth.
Now, here's the key to everything and harden not your heart any longer.
Stop being hard in your heart.
Well, so I say to people who have had addiction or have been abused, I say, okay, this whole
thing about forgiving your perpetrator.
All right.
Let's say, I know we teach that you need to be forgiven.
You need to forgive to be forgiven.
However, there are exceptions where what I would ask you is don't harden your heart.
Leave a little hole in your heart so that when the forgiveness does come, there's a
place for it to go rather than ricochet off your hardened heart.
It'll seep into that little hole.
And then he says, for behold, now is the time in the day of your salvation.
And therefore, if you will repent and harden not your hearts, there it is again.
What's the next word?
Wow.
Immediately.
Immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about under you.
The minute you bend your knees, immediately, the minute you open the scriptures, the minute
you seek help, the minute you try immediately, the atonement is working in your life.
You don't have to wait until you're this good or that, you know, it starts immediately.
And you are beginning to be healed in your anger, your bitterness, your heartbreak, your
disillusionment, your guilt, you know, as Dr. Christensen, I just don't think that guilt
is a bad thing.
I think it's a gift.
I think it is a gift.
I think it's a gift.
I do too.
Pain is pain can be a gift.
Absolutely.
Because that's how you know.
It's like when people approach me and they're all angry about something they read about
Joseph Smith, I ask a couple of things.
Well, first of all, by their fruit, she shall know them.
What is Galatians 5?
Let's not even go to LDS Latter-day Scripture.
Let's go to Galatians, the Apostle Paul.
And what does he say the fruits of the Spirit are?
Love, joy, peace.
Is that what you felt when you read that about Joseph Smith?
Yeah.
No, I got angry and I'm mad.
They lied to me.
I said, Oh, what does that tell you?
It's not true.
The Spirit does not act that way.
And so when you read the truth, the minute you see the truth about yourself, you just
have to realize that the Atonement, the grace of Jesus Christ, his forgiveness, his love
begins immediately the second you try.
And I think too often we think, well, I'm not good enough.
I've done this.
I've done that.
I've come to the club.
Most of us have things in our lives that we struggle with that we wish we didn't have.
I have to deal with anger and with frustration towards some people who falsely accused me.
And they didn't have all, they didn't gather all the information.
They thought they did.
And I've tried to reconcile with them and they won't.
And it's hard.
But this much I know.
The minute I bend my knee and I ask Father in the name of Jesus Christ, I got to be healed.
I can't have this.
I'm a patriarch.
I have to give a blessing.
I have to eliminate all contention in my life, all of it.
I have to eliminate all fear, as you know, David.
Right.
And section 67 is so clear.
You got to get rid of your jealousies.
You got to get rid of your fears.
And you got to be humble.
Well, how do you do that?
You have to ask.
Well, section 10, verse 21, the Savior says about the people who stole the lost manuscript.
Their whole problem is they won't ask me.
So the instant you start to ask, to pray, to search, to not doubt, but ask all the questions
you want.
But don't doubt.
So, Jack, is it as simple as just looking to the brazen serpent?
But that's what makes it so difficult.
It's so easy.
Is it that simple, really?
Well, for me, it is.
I love the term that, you know, Alma uses the term snatched.
Yes.
I love that term, that he was snatched.
You know, I just, we've talked about that on this podcast so many times that if we would
just look, if you just look to God and live.
You know, if we just tried to keep the commandment, to look unto me.
Look unto me in every thought.
Now I know that's a work of a higher order.
But just the effort, just the effort to do that.
Amen.
In fact, go to 1st Nephi 1511.
Look at what Nephi says.
Now this is right in the, he is trying to deal with his brothers and the dream.
He's interpreting the dream for his brothers.
And so he says in verse 11, which I believe, and in my way of thinking, this is as powerful
as Moroni 10, 4, and 5, and as powerful as ask, and ye shall receive, seek, and ye shall
find.
So it reads, Do ye not remember the things?
Which the Lord has said.
Okay, stop.
So when you have an issue, whether it's social issue, whether it's gender, whatever it is.
What did you forget?
What has the Lord said about this?
And where will you find that?
What did you forget?
Yes, scriptures.
Why do you not remember?
Yeah, okay, go ahead.
How can we remember?
Remember, remember.
And Nephi goes on, If ye will not harden your hearts, ask me in faith.
Okay, stop.
So there it is again.
Don't harden your heart.
This is so stupid.
I've been hurt by this person.
I've done this.
Yeah, I know.
We all have.
You just don't know it.
All of us carry wounds that we don't let everybody see.
How do we do that?
How do you not harden your heart?
Well, I think this is how you not harden it is the very next line.
Ask me in faith.
Ask me in faith believing that ye shall receive.
Just trust me enough.
Just ask me.
Believe you'll get an answer.
And then the hard part is the next one.
believing that ye shall receive with diligence in keeping my commandments.
Now, there's the problem.
It's about keeping commandments because we don't want anybody to tell us what to do.
And I find that so ironic.
We'll come back and finish that verse in a moment.
All our lives we want to be free from our parents telling us everything to do.
And then when our heavenly parent, who's a perfect parent, far better than our earthly
parents says, Well, you can make that decision on your own.
I trust you.
Oh, it's not true.
Then I'm going to I'm going to quit because I didn't get that answer when I wanted it.
Well, yeah, you know, he loves us.
And then he says, What's the last thing in there?
It says, If you'll do those things, surely these things shall be made known unto you.
I know it's true.
And I love the word surely.
Surely.
It's a fact.
You remember what the Lord said, Don't harden your heart.
Ask me in faith.
Believe you get an answer.
Try to your best to keep the commandments and learn to repent all the time.
I repent all the time.
Yeah, we all should.
I was driving a few days ago and I nearly hit a guy because he just stopped right in
front of me to turn into Macy's.
And I you jerk.
And I immediately I said, Wait a minute.
I'm giving a patriarchal blessing in two days.
Right.
Heavenly Father, I am so sorry.
I am the jerk.
Please forgive me.
I'll do all I can to never let that happen again.
And I think one of the things with with the atonement is, is we need to learn from Brigham
Young.
He said, I never performed a priesthood ordinance that I was not worthy.
Well, when I first read that, I thought I'm the lost.
I have that lots of times.
But then he describes how to do it.
He said, I go before the Lord and I say this, Father, please cleanse me through the holy
blood of the lamb.
And I will try never to do this again with all my heart.
I'll try.
But please cleanse me through the holy blood of the lamb.
And if there's anything else I need to repent of before I get up off my knees, well, I'll
bring it to my mind right now.
Otherwise, I will consider this matter closed.
He says, I just get up and go do it.
And if it's not a major transgression that would affect your membership in the church
that you need your help from your priesthood leaders, then I think we need to get over
ourselves and just say, Heavenly Father, I'm going to try never to do that again.
And then if we if we mess up, always remember what Elder Scott and Elder Renland have taught
us that there's a major difference between human weakness and open rebellion.
Yeah, we just talked about.
We talked about that.
Yeah, last episode.
Well, you have to keep going because this is good.
You're following up on what we just talked about.
I just can't get over how important that is.
Okay.
So you drop back in, you fall off the wagon.
Does that mean you're lost?
No.
Yeah.
You just immediately, the second you bend your knees, the second you try, the second
you resist, see as Louis said, nobody knows about temptation till they resist it.
Yeah.
It's true.
Right.
And that's why you know about temptation if you've never had to resist it.
That's why Jesus knew more about temptation than anybody.
Than we'll ever know about.
That's right.
Because he resisted it every single time.
We give into it.
And you faced all of it.
All of it.
Everything that you and I face.
All our temptations, all our infirmities, everything that says the effect of the fall
of Adam and Eve, Jesus Christ felt that.
That's right.
And so what we have to do is get over all of the social talk, the senseless, ceaseless
talking of the world about why you shouldn't do this or why you should just do you and
don't, well, how about let's do what the Savior wants us to do.
Once you know he's real, why do I keep the commandments for one simple reason?
I just love him.
Yeah.
And you and I have talked about this, David.
You love, casteth out all fear.
Perfect love.
Cast out all fear.
Well, go back just a minute.
So it's not just the social stuff they hear, Jack.
It's the accuser.
Oh.
You know, it's...
Revelation 12.
Worse than that, it's the accuser.
That's right.
In fact, Joseph Smith taught.
He didn't teach them all at one time, but through his ministry, he taught, there are four things
we should never do.
Four things.
Now there are, my personal formula for what you should do is every day, scriptures, prayer,
prophets, service, temple.
Then I've added two others.
Are they beautiful music and study church history from legitimate sources?
Not at everything on the internet.
Go to legitimate sources.
But Joseph taught four things we should never do if we want to have the spirit.
Number one, we never aspire.
What was Satan's big deal?
He aspired to be God.
Yeah.
He sought excellence, Joseph Smith said.
Yeah.
And you go to Alvin Babbit in section 124, verse 84.
Yeah, the golden calf.
Yeah.
He wanted to...
He didn't want to follow the prophet.
He aspired to be the one that would make decisions.
In church, yeah.
Okay.
So never aspire.
Number two, never accuse.
What is Satan's main MO?
Yeah.
He's the accuser.
That's his title.
Day and night.
That's right.
Number three, never contend.
What does it say in 30...
President Nelson just gave a talk about that, right?
Yeah.
And contention, Satan is the father of contention.
Who stireth up the hearts of men to contend with anger one against another.
Behold, I say unto you, this is not my doctrine, but this is my doctrine.
Christ says that all these things, such things should be done away.
And I think, Jack, much of that contention in anger is because of fear.
Oh, absolutely.
You know, you got angry at the guy the other day because you were afraid.
Yeah, I almost...
Yeah.
It could have cost him his life for me.
No, I know.
I know.
I think fear is the source of most contention.
I agree.
So that's the third.
Do not contend.
And the fourth is never course.
And remember, in Moses chapter four...
Never course or force.
But Satan, what was the battle about?
He tried to take away the agency of man.
Well, I think one way he did that, Jack, was not so much he was going to force to keep
the commandments because I don't think he had any desire...
He had any intention to keep them.
He had no desire to have anything about commandments.
He was going to coerce us or force us by taking away accountability.
That's all right.
I'll save you no matter what.
That's right.
I'll save you even if you don't want to be saved and you don't have to do anything.
That's right.
And my personal feeling is, and maybe I shouldn't say this, I don't want him to come after me,
which he always does anyway.
And by the way, just wait until if you would become a patriarch or a patriarch's spouse.
You're attacked.
Yes, you're attacked more than anything I've ever done.
I've done everything you can do in the church except be a member of the Twelve, which I
never want.
But I'll tell you this.
I've never been worked on harder.
I hated the state conference and I hate to admit that because a couple of weeks before
and after I had all these talks.
This is when you were state president.
Yes.
I was just brutally beat up.
And I tell people, you be careful what you ask for because I don't think you realize.
So but a statement I've always used is if you're being beat up, just remember this,
Satan don't kick no dead dogs.
Yeah, it's kind of a good sign.
And I used to tell my students, you know, the closer you get to Jesus, the harder it
gets in the more your sins and weaknesses even look loom larger.
They look larger.
They, you know, if you're feeling adversity in your life, then you know you're doing
something right.
That's right.
And James teaches us that if we will resist the devil, he'll flee from us.
Now he'll be back.
For sure.
But with his buddies.
But he'll leave.
And I even sometimes I never cease.
Sorry, I get emotional.
I don't mean to.
I call upon the name of Jesus Christ whenever I need to.
I'll cast out evil spirits.
I don't care.
I am not going to give in.
I don't want to give any place for Satan in my life.
I know what power he has.
President Packer said I will not consent to any influence from the adversary.
Well, I love the Savior.
That's why I live the Word of wisdom.
I love the Savior.
That's why I want to live the law of chastity.
I love the Savior.
That's why I want to pay tithing.
It's not a big deal to me.
I just love him.
Thanks for everything.
Boy, what is 10% Yeah, right.
And I have needed help in the past.
I don't mind.
I love to pay fast offering.
Well it's it's out of love and it's also out of gratitude.
We've talked about that gratitude.
Gratitude is the beginning of desire by the way, that's from Ed Pinninger.
Yeah, gratitude is the beginning of desire.
Gratitude is a is an attitude that just really makes a difference in our life and our ability
to change.
I try.
Well, share with us some more examples Jack.
I will.
Let me say one of the individuals and and not just what they did, but how okay the how
the Savior changed them.
Well, let me or you say this.
I think it's important that our listeners realize that when you keep the commandments, when
you strive with all your heart to serve the Lord, it doesn't mean that all your problems
will go away.
But it gives you the foundation and the vision and the heart to deal with them.
Yeah, and the reservoir of faith.
That's right.
Parenting, marriage, all sorts of things.
It's a matter of the heart.
Right.
Where's your heart?
For sure.
And that and that takes spirituality is only gained by making it present.
Oak said by making a succession of correct choice choices over long periods of time.
Small and simple.
And be patient.
Be patient.
You're not going to hell.
Just keep trying.
Yeah.
Let me give you one that we talked about just a little bit before when Scott told me the
story of a man that that came over and told him that that I love you.
And this is when Scott was just three.
Yeah, Scott was coming back.
Let me let me.
So let me just kind of preface this and then I'll let you please let you jump in from there.
So when when Deb and I first moved into this house, the one that we're in right now, it
was about 17 or 18 ish years ago.
And I my membership had been lifted, which was a great blessing.
And we've talked about that.
But my membership had been lifted and I had a little bit of a chip on my shoulder at that
time.
And we moved in here and you know how things go.
The the elders corn president wanted to meet with me and I I reluctantly agreed and went
and the first thing he said to me when I got there and I love this man today, when I first
got there, Alan McNeil said to me, he said, Scott, I just want you to know that we love
you.
How much we absolutely love you.
And that just rubbed me wrong because of the chip on my shoulder.
My heart wasn't soft.
My shoulder had a big chip on it.
And I just got up.
I said, you don't know me.
Don't tell me that until you know me.
And I left.
Well, here it is 17 years ish later.
A couple years ago, I was called to be the elders corn president in this same ward.
And it almost immediately, Jack, when when I got set apart and I was going through the
list on the website of the elders in our ward and some of them I didn't know.
And I loved them and I felt this great, enduring, powerful love just enveloped me, which you
didn't just decide you were going to do.
It's not beyond your ability.
Well, not only beyond my ability, but it was even beyond my intentions.
I hadn't even considered that.
It wasn't even something.
In fact, it's a gift.
In fact, this this experience with Brother McNeil had left my mind until almost that
time.
And so here I am sitting in this very office that we're in and I'm going through that and
I feel that and I just needed to go see Alan.
And I said, Alan, I owe you a huge men's 15 ish plus years later, because I know now
that love that you expressed to me.
And he just smiled, you know, gave me a big hug and and all that.
So that was that's kind of the beginning of that story, Jack.
Well, and I I almost hesitate because I haven't received his permission to share this.
But then at our 40 year class reunion, which was held two years early because they were
demolishing our high school, I had been called and I was leaving a month later to be the
mission president of the New York Rochester Mission.
And after our meeting and after our dinner and everything, Brother McNeil took me aside
and shared with me some of the feelings he had had because of something I had said and
done when we were in high school.
And he was absolutely justified.
I was I was wrong.
Just something stupid.
Just something stupid, not to anyone particularly.
I just told a story about some things.
And I was on the Seminary Council in high school on my senior year.
And it was totally inappropriate for the leader of the Seminary or a leader of the Seminary
to say something like that.
So Alan felt bad that, OK, well, maybe I shouldn't go to seminary.
That's the kind of guy that's leading it.
And then he struggled with feelings about a mission because of me.
And now at 40 years later, he's telling me begging begging me to forgive him.
And I said, and I wish everyone could have been there.
I had my arms around the back of his head and he has his around mine and we're forehead
to forehead.
And I don't care what anybody thought.
Two big grown men crying.
Football players.
He was great.
He was our linebacker and I was the quarterback.
And it came to me.
I said, just think of what we've just learned from each other.
I said, I beg your forgiveness.
I said, I didn't understand what it meant to be a priesthood holder when I was 17.
I didn't get it.
And I beg your forgiveness and you didn't have to wait 40 years.
So look at what we've learned.
If you had come to me sooner and I had known and you had known, we both could have saved
ourselves a lot of pain because the Savior knows our hearts.
And to this day, I every time I see him or his lovely wife, I have the most sweet, beautiful,
loving, healed feelings that one could possibly have.
And I believe he has those for me as well.
For sure.
Can I mention one real quick?
My daughter who is divorced, a single mother with four children, she could have given up
when everything that happened.
It's just been a disaster.
But what she has done is just said, no, I choose to believe.
I choose to be faithful no matter what's happened to me.
She's working on a master's degree.
She's working full time.
She's trying to raise these kids.
She's the gospel doctrine teacher.
I share this because she has been such an example of the very thing you talk about in
this podcast that she just said, okay, and does she get discouraged?
Of course.
Does she want to quit at times?
Of course.
But the whole point is I choose to be a disciple of Jesus Christ and I'm going to put my discipleship
of the Savior above everyone and everything else in my life.
And as a result, it has saved her.
That's the bottom line, Jack.
Yeah, that's right.
It's saved.
It's a relationship.
That's right.
With the Savior.
If all of us would just everything he's asked us to do, all the commandments, all the covenants,
everything about the temple, anything that we can have a closer relationship with him.
That's right.
And with our father.
Yeah, absolutely.
Be connected.
Be bound.
And the Holy Ghost will be with us even though we think it's not.
Always remember 3rd Nephi 920 where the Lamanites had the Holy Ghost and they knew it not.
And Sidney Reagan in section 35, the Lord was using him all the time and he didn't even
know it.
I just want to thank each of you for this privilege.
I know the things we've talked about are true.
I know the Savior lives and he redeems us through his holy blood.
And I say that in the name of Jesus Christ.
Amen.
Jack, thank you.
We didn't have enough time.
I wanted to hear the story about the missionary story that you told me a long time ago.
I haven't written down here, but I didn't get it.
Maybe I can come back and tell it.
Would you?
Oh, we'd love that.
If you'd come back, we could hear a few more stories that I know that our listeners not
only would love to hear, but they need to hear.
So it's always so great to be with you, Jack, and talk the Gospel and see the light in Jack's
eyes and feel the conviction in his voice and to witness over the years as I have the
goodness of his heart.
So thank you so much, Jack.
Sure, love and appreciate you.
Thank you.
You're your dear friend.
Thanks so much for being with us, Jack.
Thanks, David, for your insights and questions, etc.
We hope that you have absolutely felt the redeeming love and the the through the Holy
Ghost, the cleansing power that comes to us through a knowledge of getting to know him
of having the ability, having our desires increase as our gratitude grows.
And I think that, Jack, what you've done to us is given us a deeper gratitude.
You know, your insights have definitely imposed on me a deeper gratitude with that comes a
greater desire with that desire comes.
Hopefully, if I'll act on that desire, which I commit to do even a deeper desire discipleship
in following our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Thanks for being with us, Jack and Dave.
Thanks for being with us, everybody else.
We look forward to being with you again next week.
And remember that you have been redeemed through his blood.
We'll see you next week.