1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,240 Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode of Redeem Through His Blood. 2 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,240 This is Scott Durfee joined as always by David Durfee. 3 00:00:17,240 --> 00:00:18,240 What's up Dave? 4 00:00:18,240 --> 00:00:19,240 It's always great to be with you Scott. 5 00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:28,480 I have a conversation about some of these important principles on repentance and forgiveness. 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:33,680 The manifestations of forgiveness and forgiveness. 7 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:39,560 One of the main ones that we've identified, if not the main one, is definitely forgiveness. 8 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:41,640 So Dave, where do we go? 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:46,000 Well, last time we talked about the commandment. 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:53,200 Remind everyone that it's a commandment that we forgive all men that would certainly include 11 00:00:53,200 --> 00:01:00,640 ourselves, that we have a forgiving heart, that we follow Christ's example. 12 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:08,200 I don't think, I don't know if we said that last week Scott, but you know one of his last 13 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:14,360 seven statements, seven statements he makes from the cross, right in the middle of those 14 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:22,840 seven statements is when he looks down at the Roman soldiers and others and pronounces 15 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,680 forgive them father for they know not what they do. 16 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:36,120 I think that's so true for so many wrongs and mistakes and hurt and so many people are 17 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:41,480 just out of their mind and they don't know what they do and they don't understand. 18 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:44,760 And Jesus was forgiving. 19 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:45,760 God is forgiving. 20 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:47,480 I love the lectures on faith. 21 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:52,640 We talked about how forgiving, how merciful, how gracious. 22 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,400 He is a forgiving being. 23 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:57,640 He loves to forgive. 24 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:59,720 Why wouldn't he? 25 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,760 Otherwise all of his suffering, all of his pain, all of his blood that he shed would 26 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:06,680 be in vain. 27 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:09,320 So he's anxious to forgive. 28 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:13,760 There's so many examples of that in the scriptures. 29 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:16,440 The woman caught in the very act of adultery. 30 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:18,080 He wouldn't condemn. 31 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,280 It's true that he didn't forgive her there and then, but he wanted to. 32 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:28,840 I know he wanted to and tells her, go that way and sin no more knowing that forgiveness 33 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:34,360 would come soon if, if her heart was right and she did right. 34 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:42,280 The woman that washes his feet in Luke chapter seven because she loved much. 35 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:50,600 She received much mercy and there's just so many examples Scott of how quick he is to 36 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:57,760 forgive and, and I know that's true for individuals who are sitting today. 37 00:02:57,760 --> 00:03:03,400 That's true for me, true for you, true for my family, your family. 38 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:06,000 I know that's true. 39 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:11,920 I feel that and you know, it's, it's really kind of amazing because as a natural man, 40 00:03:11,920 --> 00:03:20,280 when I sin, I would probably, if it were somebody in my family that I knew was doing that, it 41 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,320 would probably take me a while to forgive and get over it. 42 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:31,120 You know, it amazes me that when I, now I, I know we're just sinners, help and sinners 43 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:37,960 and I'm not any better than anybody else, but it always amazes me when I repent, how 44 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,800 quickly, speedily I am forgiven. 45 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:43,800 Yeah. 46 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:45,080 And I, I feel it. 47 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:46,080 I know it. 48 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,080 And I go, wow. 49 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:48,080 Wow. 50 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,640 I know I'm feeling the Holy Ghost, so I must be forgiven in that. 51 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:52,640 I just not worthy. 52 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:55,080 I'm not worthy to be forgiven. 53 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:00,360 And it's kind of interesting that that's what King Benjamin brings up in his discourse 54 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:12,160 after he's seen the people fall down and repent and then he tells them, remember your unworthiness. 55 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:22,000 None of us are, are worthy or will be totally worthy or what, what's the word? 56 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:23,840 None of us will earn it. 57 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:29,000 It comes totally as a gift, just as a free gift. 58 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:33,240 If we will just ask and receive it. 59 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:37,600 I know that's true not only for forgiveness of our own sins, but it's also true for the 60 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,480 gift to be able to forgive others. 61 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:49,080 And we spent a lot of time on that last week, Scott, but I want to today continue that discussion, 62 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:56,160 maybe give some examples of it and maybe talk a little bit about the, the blessings of forgiving 63 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,480 ourselves and others and how is it possible? 64 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:07,880 You know, I, I think that's really an important part of this is how can we do it? 65 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:13,360 I know there's a lot of people in the church, Scott, who, and I'm not, I'm not one judge, 66 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:22,520 but, but I, I guess I've just, I'm old enough and had enough experience and know some individuals 67 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:31,800 who are close enough to me that I know that there are individuals who still hold grudges 68 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:39,400 and maybe even I do in some cases, Scott, you know, I, I've been offended. 69 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:40,400 I've been hurt. 70 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:47,400 I think the greatest hurt we go through is when someone hurts our children or they hurt 71 00:05:47,400 --> 00:05:53,520 our wife, our spouse, or they hurt someone we really love. 72 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:59,360 I think it's easier for me to forgive when somebody hurts me than it is for me to forgive 73 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,960 someone when they've hurt somebody that I really love. 74 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:03,480 I've been through that experience. 75 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:06,160 I've, I've been hurt by the church. 76 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,200 The church has hurt me and hurt my children. 77 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:15,280 Uh, you know, and it's true for all of us, really. 78 00:06:15,280 --> 00:06:18,960 I had a new thought this week. 79 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:25,440 I think it came from Brother Stephen Harper, but, um, I was listening to him and he says, 80 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:30,840 you know, what's the, he was asking, I think the question, what is the full name of the 81 00:06:30,840 --> 00:06:31,840 church? 82 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,600 And so I'm going to ask you, Scott, what's the full name of the church? 83 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:37,440 The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 84 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,480 There's two ofs. 85 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,520 Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 86 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:45,520 Okay. 87 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:47,880 So of Christ. 88 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:49,120 No problem there. 89 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,360 Yeah. 90 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:51,680 No problem there. 91 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:52,680 Yeah. 92 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:58,680 Perfect, uh, totally, uh, sinless. 93 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:04,960 Um, well, that's, that's what I choose to, to dwell on. 94 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,520 It's the second of that presents us with problems. 95 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:08,520 Yeah. 96 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:09,520 Because that's us. 97 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:10,520 That's the people. 98 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:14,720 That's the mortality component of, uh, of this whole thing. 99 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,120 The church of Jesus Christ of God. 100 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:18,120 Yeah. 101 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:19,120 Perfected. 102 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:20,120 Immortal. 103 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:21,120 Uh, exalted. 104 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:27,120 And then we have the church of the Latter-day Saints, human sinners. 105 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:34,080 Uh, you know, uh, it's just, we can't, we can't avoid that reality. 106 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,080 No. 107 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:39,240 And that comes with all of the, uh, ugly little things that come with it too. 108 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:40,240 Yeah. 109 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:45,040 Pride and deception and that just so, so much other stuff too. 110 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:51,080 Oh, I was, uh, I spent a little time with someone recently who just really, uh, I don't 111 00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:54,200 really struggle with the culture of the church. 112 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:55,200 And I, I get that. 113 00:07:55,200 --> 00:08:00,280 I actually really understand that because at times I have two and, and I know that's 114 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:01,280 my problem. 115 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:02,280 Right. 116 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,280 That's my heart problem. 117 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:11,840 Uh, if I, if I struggle with people in the church or, uh, collectively as a church and 118 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:17,280 I can get tired of the culture of, uh, I don't know. 119 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:24,960 I don't, I don't want to make any judgments, but you get you as a member of the church, 120 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:31,880 it's sometimes hard to see all of the people with all of their different motives and all 121 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:40,360 of their different, uh, personalities and all of their different, uh, weaknesses. 122 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:41,760 And I know I have all those too. 123 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,040 I know people are looking at me and have a problem with me. 124 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:45,040 I get that. 125 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:47,440 And that's, that's the, that's the reality. 126 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:51,880 That's the culture, the church of the Latter-day Saints. 127 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,760 And, uh, it's hard for us to sometimes get over that. 128 00:08:55,760 --> 00:09:01,760 And we just have to be, make sure our heart is right and that we have, uh, more mercy 129 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:07,640 and more grace that we understand the principle that you receive grace for grace. 130 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,840 You receive mercy for mercy. 131 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:11,520 I, I know it's true. 132 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:19,080 We receive forgiveness as we are willing and able to forgive, but I, I think there's one 133 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:25,480 point Scott that I don't know if we made strong enough last time and that is, um, how is it 134 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,880 possible? 135 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:29,720 How is it possible for us to forgive? 136 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:39,400 And I, I think one of the things that's really, um, helpful strengthening to me in order to 137 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:47,680 help me to forgive is when I realized this truth, that the Atonement of Jesus Christ 138 00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:56,920 covers not only the sins committed, but it covers all of the effects of all the sins 139 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:58,880 committed. 140 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:07,440 It covers all of the pain, all of the negatives that are the consequences of all the sins 141 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,400 of all the world. 142 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:18,640 That helps me to forgive others because when, when, um, someone in your family is hurt, 143 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:22,880 I mean really drastically hurt by members of the church or sometimes even leaders of 144 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:24,880 the church. 145 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Uh, if there are negative consequences that come out of that and, and there are Jesus Christ 146 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,280 suffered for that too. 147 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:43,920 And when negatives, uh, create other negatives, for example, it seems to me that when, uh, 148 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:54,640 someone is, uh, abused, oftentimes they become the abuser that, that negatives beget negatives 149 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,760 and you get in that cycle. 150 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:02,760 It's just really important for us to remember that Jesus Christ covered all of that too. 151 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:10,240 Now I'm not excusing, not excusing anyone's behavior or not holding them accountable because 152 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:17,000 they will be held accountable, but I, I know that Jesus anticipated that. 153 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:18,240 He knew that. 154 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:26,320 He made ample provision for that and that it's covered so that when, um, someone hurts 155 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:33,920 me or my family, I know that Jesus suffered for all of that hurt and for all of the negative 156 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:40,840 consequences that comes from the offense or the abuse or, or whatever it may be. 157 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:49,760 And, uh, that, that seems to give me the hope and the, the, the faith necessary, which I 158 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:55,920 believe are totally necessary in order to forgive others. 159 00:11:55,920 --> 00:12:00,280 This is difficult for me to, you know, to, to offer forgiveness. 160 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:05,160 I've been offended and sometimes I'm offended still at some of the dumbest things, you know, 161 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:06,160 by my own judgment. 162 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:11,000 I mean, they just really are, you know, Deb and I, I, you know, we, we have a phenomenal 163 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:12,000 relationship. 164 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:13,000 We're best friends. 165 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,000 We really are, you know that. 166 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:22,040 And you know, we've, uh, in large part, uh, you know, have, have this wonderful relationship 167 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,440 because of the backgrounds that we've both been through. 168 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:30,920 You know, we have Deb's interview, uh, I think it was episode 17 or whatever of, um, season 169 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:32,520 one, if you want to go back and hear that. 170 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,120 And, you know, and I'm pretty forthcoming with, you know, all of my past as on a kind 171 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:38,960 of a weekly basis here. 172 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:45,000 But you know, the other day, um, you know, we're, we're a couple and, uh, we sometimes 173 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,040 say things that can hurt each other inadvertently and sometimes even on purpose, right? 174 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:51,720 And I got offended. 175 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:59,080 And, uh, man, I hung on to that and I was justified in my being offended, you know, in 176 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:07,560 my own mind, in my own, um, fallen mind, in my own natural man mind, you know, and finally 177 00:13:07,560 --> 00:13:11,800 at one point I just prayed and I said, Emily father, I feel lousy right now. 178 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:18,040 And I know why, um, but I'm just having a really hard time letting go of, you know, 179 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,160 something that she said, which was really no big deal. 180 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,000 I mean, it just really wasn't no big deal. 181 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,280 And then, um, it was like almost I heard it. 182 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,440 I didn't, but it was almost like I heard it. 183 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:32,200 But all of this stuff that we've been talking about in all of my life, and you know, interestingly 184 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:37,880 enough yesterday, you know, I was in the temple and, you know, love the, the imagery there, 185 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:44,440 love the temple, how it helps us to come again in contact with a deeper level of understanding 186 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:48,640 of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and what that really means to enter into the temple, 187 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:51,760 to enter into a covenant with Jesus Christ and all that. 188 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:54,800 But anyway, I got this response to my prayer. 189 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Um, why don't you go out? 190 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,040 I'm not slow to forgive you. 191 00:13:58,040 --> 00:13:59,040 Yeah. 192 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,040 You know, exactly. 193 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:02,040 And he's sinless. 194 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:03,040 Yeah. 195 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,080 And you're not far from it, right? 196 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:08,520 And so that was a little bit of an experience I have. 197 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,560 But you know, as you were going on, some of the things that I was thinking about, and 198 00:14:12,560 --> 00:14:18,560 this was, this is some of the stuff that we really try to make impressionable drive 199 00:14:18,560 --> 00:14:24,520 home, if you will, in our Institute classes that we teach on this topic, that even that, 200 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:30,640 even this inability or seemingly inability that we sometimes have to not forgive others 201 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,560 or whatever is also a result of the fall. 202 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,400 It's one of the negative effects of the fall. 203 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,400 Because you know, there's two major negative effects that come from the fall. 204 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,720 First one is spiritual death. 205 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,560 The second one is physical death. 206 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:48,200 Well, because of my spiritual death, I'm not with Heavenly Father in His presence on a 207 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:49,200 constant basis. 208 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,440 I'm not in His presence on a constant basis. 209 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:57,720 And if I don't have His Spirit with me, if I haven't taken upon me adequately His name 210 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:03,120 like I covenant it, renewed the covenant to do when I partake of the sacrament, if I haven't 211 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:09,440 done that, then the effects of the fall are kind of running my life, or at least that 212 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:10,440 part of my life. 213 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:11,440 Yeah. 214 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:16,120 But it's when I am able to put on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, it is when I am able to take 215 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:21,280 upon me His name and through covenant and through covenant relationship and through a relationship 216 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:27,120 and a connection to Heavenly Father, to Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and all of 217 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:35,600 them, then that's when the effects of the fall are also answered through Christ's Atonement 218 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,880 even in this part of my life. 219 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:43,160 You know, so often we think of the Atonement of Jesus Christ being an important thing for 220 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,680 us only because of repentance, only to forgive us of our sins. 221 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,080 Well it's much more than just that. 222 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,720 It's so much more than just that. 223 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,880 It gives us the, you know, getting back to that enabling power, that it enables us to 224 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,720 also forgive others through the Spirit and so on. 225 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:05,120 And so, you know, we're going to talk about and focus a lot on forgiveness, but let's 226 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:10,280 remember that it is because of the fall of Adam that we have the problem. 227 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:15,040 The fall of Adam and Eve creates the problem and it's the Atonement of Jesus Christ and 228 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:20,000 His power through His Atonement that answers the problem even when it comes to this, actually 229 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:21,600 even when it comes to anything. 230 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:22,600 Yeah. 231 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,960 Well, Scott, so you've hit on a few key points. 232 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:34,920 I really believe, Scott, that my experience and there are some people even outside the 233 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:44,920 church who are, I don't know, more easily, I don't know if that's the word, but more 234 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:55,480 willing maybe, have a more tendency or more of a personality or character of forgiving 235 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:56,480 others. 236 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:04,520 I think sometimes in the church, Scott, because of our problems with perfectionism and merit 237 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:11,160 ocracy, where we think we can earn salvation or it has to be, if anyone believes it has 238 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:17,440 to be earned or that we're supposed to be perfect in this life, which is often totally 239 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,840 misinterpreted, meaning sinless. 240 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:24,160 And those are two different things, perfections, being sinless. 241 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,680 But anyway, we have some false expectations in this church. 242 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:29,680 We really do. 243 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:35,800 Now, I see some individuals outside the church who have been through such terrible, horrible 244 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:37,640 things. 245 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:43,240 Some of them I know personally, some of them I've seen in the news, read their stories, 246 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:48,960 and how quickly they're able to forgive because they know they're not any better than anybody 247 00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:49,960 else. 248 00:17:49,960 --> 00:17:56,560 And they just have the certain, you know, I remember, again, Garrison Keeler, a prairie 249 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,240 home companion back in Minnesota, when I lived in Minnesota, I went to a few of his shows 250 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:10,120 and he was, you know, such a liberal and so Lutheran, liberal Lutheran. 251 00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:16,080 And he would talk about, oh, Lutherans, we all know that we're evil. 252 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:17,800 You know, we all know that we're sinners. 253 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,960 We all know that we're evil. 254 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,360 And he would often talk about that. 255 00:18:22,360 --> 00:18:30,240 And it was a perspective that I thought, you know, as Latter-day Saints sometimes, we think 256 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:38,360 because we're the elect, because we're chosen, because we're special, we get this idea that 257 00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:46,600 if we do anything wrong or anybody does anything wrong to us, we take it so much more seriously 258 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:55,800 sometimes, and it becomes such a major deal for us, then it makes it sometimes harder 259 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:56,800 to forgive. 260 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:01,480 I have a friend, and he always says this jokingly, but I think it applies here, because he'll 261 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,120 say, don't you know who I am? 262 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:09,640 You know, and I think that that's kind of, we kind of, you know, as sometimes act, I 263 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:14,360 think sometimes, you know, and I think I need to be careful not to just cast a blanket dispersion 264 00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:15,560 over everybody. 265 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,160 But that's sometimes our culture. 266 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:19,160 It's prevalent. 267 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:20,160 There's no question. 268 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:21,160 Part of our culture. 269 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,160 I don't really like sometimes. 270 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:24,160 Yeah. 271 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:25,160 Myself. 272 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,160 I mean, I don't know. 273 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:27,160 Maybe you just speak for myself. 274 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,720 But I know that I've come to this conclusion, Scott. 275 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,360 There's nothing that Jesus hates more than self-righteousness. 276 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:40,840 And sometimes our self-righteousness really gets in the way of being able to forgive others, 277 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,200 including ourselves. 278 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:48,560 I mean, self-righteousness sets us up to fail. 279 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,160 Including the failure to forgive ourselves. 280 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,440 Well, inarguably, maybe even especially to forgive ourselves. 281 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:56,440 Yeah. 282 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:57,440 Right? 283 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:01,920 Because, you know, that when we subscribe to a set of principles that include in our 284 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,280 minds, whether it's true or not, it is irrelevant. 285 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,240 It's the perception of whether it's true or not to the individual that matters. 286 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:15,880 And when we perceive that to be true, that can really play with us in ways that can be 287 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,360 confusing. 288 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:22,760 We put ourselves right in the hands of the enemy, unknowingly, when we do this. 289 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,760 He has control to a certain degree of our life when we do that. 290 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:34,720 And so, you know, as we talk about this forgiveness, you know, of ourselves and others, both of 291 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:36,800 those are going to be really important for us. 292 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:43,440 I remember President Faust years ago in conference referring to the story about the Amish community. 293 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:44,440 Yeah. 294 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:50,600 Who, I can't remember the man, but he wasn't Amish, who went into the little schoolhouse 295 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,120 and killed several of the children. 296 00:20:53,120 --> 00:20:58,360 And the story is, and they made a movie, I think, out of that. 297 00:20:58,360 --> 00:20:59,360 I think you're right. 298 00:20:59,360 --> 00:21:01,000 Yeah, they called the story. 299 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:08,840 The story in book and national news and President Faust was so sweet to tenderly share that 300 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:15,200 story as an example of how the Amish community, who know their sinners. 301 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,200 Oh, yeah. 302 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:24,200 And their reverence for God and their sacrifices and their lifestyle is all based upon knowing 303 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:32,720 that they are not worthy, how dependent they are upon upon God. 304 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:41,440 Anyway, they have a lot of, I think, great things about their community and their faith. 305 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:49,120 But how that all the Amish fathers and mothers and children came together and prayed for 306 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:56,240 that man's family and how quickly they were willing to forgive. 307 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,480 It was it was an amazing story. 308 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:05,000 And there are so many other examples of that outside of the church of people who are who 309 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:10,000 are willing able through through, I believe, the power, at least the power of the Holy 310 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,000 Ghost in the light of Christ to be able to forgive. 311 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:20,560 And part of it's because of the difference perspective they have of who they are. 312 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:25,600 And they understand the commandment of God, which is given over and over again by him 313 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:32,440 throughout the scriptures that you must love your enemy and forgive those who hurt you. 314 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,760 And if you don't forgive, you're not going to be forgiven. 315 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:43,720 So I just think that sometimes in the church, we don't take that serious enough and sometimes 316 00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,320 it may be a little more difficult for us. 317 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:53,760 Elder Anderson in the book on this chapter of forgiveness through forgiving. 318 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,840 I love the title of the chapter, chapter 21. 319 00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,340 Forgiveness through forgiving. 320 00:22:59,340 --> 00:23:05,320 He shares the story that was told by Bishop McMullen years ago in general conference about 321 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:06,480 Corey Ten Boom. 322 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:11,640 And I've I've always loved that book, The Hiding Place, recommended to all of our listeners 323 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:12,880 to read that book. 324 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:21,840 It's an amazing book about about this wonderful Christian family who was trying to to hide 325 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:26,760 and protect Jewish neighbors, friends. 326 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:35,720 Then they be they were caught and it's it's amazing story of how her and her sister and 327 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:43,480 her family were sent to the gas chambers and and her and her sister went to a concentration 328 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:44,840 camp. 329 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,160 Her sister dies in the concentration camp. 330 00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:50,720 It's an amazing story. 331 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:51,720 Wonderful book. 332 00:23:51,720 --> 00:24:00,520 Anyway, at one point near the end of the book, Corey Ten Boom, who's the author and and 333 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:07,360 sister surviving, I think maybe the only surviving member of her family. 334 00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:16,080 Anyway, he she she shares the experience she had coming face to face with one of her Nazi 335 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,080 captors. 336 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:24,880 So I'm just going to read part of this and it's from again the April 2010 General Conference. 337 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:31,120 In Holland, during World War Two, the Casper Ten Boom family used their home as a hiding 338 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:34,960 place for those hunted by the Nazis. 339 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:38,720 This was their way of living out their Christian faith. 340 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,760 Four members of the family lost their lives for providing this refuge. 341 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:52,440 Corey Ten Boom and her sister Betsy spent horrific months in the infamous Ravensbrook 342 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:57,080 concentration camp and Betsy died there. 343 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,400 Corey was the only to survive. 344 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:08,600 In Ravensbrook, Corey and Betsy learned that God helps us to forgive. 345 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,360 Following the war, Corey was determined to share this message. 346 00:25:12,360 --> 00:25:17,320 On one occasion, she had just spoken to a group of people in Germany suffering from 347 00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:19,320 the ravages of war. 348 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,400 Her message was God forgives. 349 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:29,360 It was then that Corey Ten Boom's faithfulness brought forth its blessing. 350 00:25:29,360 --> 00:25:34,880 A man approached her after she had spoken in this church. 351 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,600 A man approached her. 352 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:43,320 She recognized him as one of the cruelest guards in the camp. 353 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,080 And he said, you mentioned Ravensbrook in your talk. 354 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:51,320 He said, I was a guard there. 355 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,760 But since that time, I have become a Christian. 356 00:25:54,760 --> 00:26:00,720 He explained that he had sought God's forgiveness for the cruel things he had done. 357 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:06,200 He extended his hand and asked, will you forgive me? 358 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,000 Can you imagine that? 359 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:17,120 Corey Ten Boom then said, quote from her book, it could not have been many seconds that 360 00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:20,440 he stood there with his hand held out. 361 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:27,200 But to me, it seemed ours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to 362 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:28,680 do. 363 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:39,480 The message that God forgives has a condition that we forgive those who have injured us. 364 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,400 Help me. 365 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,920 I prayed silently. 366 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,400 I can lift my hand. 367 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,960 I can do that much. 368 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,480 But you, God, have to supply the feeling. 369 00:26:53,480 --> 00:27:01,360 Woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me. 370 00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:05,760 As I did, an incredible thing took place. 371 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:13,200 The current, the current, like an electrical current, started in my shoulder, raced down 372 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:17,920 my arm, spraying into our joined hands. 373 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:24,720 And then this healing warmth seemed to flood over my whole being, bringing tears to my 374 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,480 eyes. 375 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:33,960 I forgive you, brother, I cried, with all my heart. 376 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:42,160 For a long moment, we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner. 377 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,520 I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then. 378 00:27:47,520 --> 00:28:00,080 Well, I think that's an amazing example, Scott, of not only an example of the miracle of 379 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:05,200 being able to forgive others, which I believe is much a miracle for sure as us being forgiven 380 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:06,440 by God. 381 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,000 He supplies, he supplies the feeling. 382 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:17,520 To be able to forgive others is not something again that we just do on our own. 383 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:26,760 The ability, the strength, the understanding, the willingness, the power to forgive others 384 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:33,760 is given to us as a gift from God. 385 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,600 So it's not just members of the church, and it's not even just Christian people. 386 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:47,320 I know that there are so many other examples of people who are willing to forgive, and I 387 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:54,440 know that in every one of those cases, there are blessings that follow that miracle. 388 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,920 Yeah, there's no question about that. 389 00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,200 In fact, one of those blessings that follow that miracle, Corey Tamboom, the very last 390 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:09,160 sentence of what you just read, I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then. 391 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,800 I wonder what we would pay. 392 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,880 I want to solve. 393 00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:17,080 This is an invitation for us to all just pause for a second right now. 394 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:23,320 What would we give to fill God's love so intensely, more intensely than we have ever 395 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:24,720 felt it before? 396 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:30,280 Think back to the last time or to the most intense time that you can think of when you, 397 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,320 with the most intensity, felt God's love. 398 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:38,400 What would you give to fill that again, but even more? 399 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:43,720 Maybe maybe maybe exponentially more from the way this sounds, because of the extremity 400 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:48,760 of this story, the extremity of the love must have probably matched it. 401 00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,520 And so we get into and we talk about this a lot. 402 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,640 We've talked about it in the past couple of weeks. 403 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:58,640 I know for sure that there's a payoff to the things that we do. 404 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,240 And so that payoff can come as either a negative or a positive, you know. 405 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,960 So what would we be willing to give? 406 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,240 I really want us to, I know I'm saying it over and over again, but I really want us 407 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:14,080 to consider what would you be willing to give to fill God's love? 408 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:19,000 I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then. 409 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:23,040 And would we be willing to give that forgiveness? 410 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:29,560 There's a lot of us, a lot of us that are listening to this podcast today who have reason 411 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:36,280 to harbor resentment, who have reason to not forgive, who have reason to feel animosity 412 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:41,400 towards people that we love or have loved or who have loved us or people who maybe we 413 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,000 haven't loved. 414 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:49,240 You know, maybe even it's easier for us to to harbor and hang on to not forgiving to 415 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,480 people that we don't love because we don't love them. 416 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:53,480 There's no emotional investment there. 417 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,720 Well there actually is an emotional investment there and that emotional investment is is 418 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:07,960 manifest to us or is evidenced through that feeling of hanging on to a resentment or whatever 419 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,640 non-forgiveness looks like to us. 420 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:12,640 Well Scott, that's the problem. 421 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:13,640 Yeah, it is. 422 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:19,240 The problem is not that just we're not able or not willing to forgive. 423 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,080 The real problem is, is that it's the resentment. 424 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:24,080 Yeah. 425 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:30,000 The resentment is the resentment that we have towards others which create this this hardness 426 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:40,240 of heart which makes us incapable on our own of being able to forgive others. 427 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:47,840 And until our heart becomes soft, we let go of the resentment, we let go of thinking that 428 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:54,040 we're entitled, we let go of our self-righteousness thinking we're better than anyone else or 429 00:31:54,040 --> 00:32:04,200 holding higher expectations than we should for any other person, even ourselves. 430 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:05,840 All of that is the problem. 431 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:10,840 It's not just that we're not able or willing to forgive. 432 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:12,920 It's what's behind all of that. 433 00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:15,720 What's in our heart, what we harbor in our hearts. 434 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:17,720 What's it going to cost me if I do forgive? 435 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:22,320 If I forgive you, then I don't have this resentment anymore and I have learned to love this resentment 436 00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:29,280 because this resentment justifies me in so much of my bad behaviors and so much of my 437 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,840 bad emotions and so much of, because you know, there's a little bit of work. 438 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:39,160 And not only that, not only that, but there's a strong amount of humility that has to be 439 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,720 demonstrated when we offer that forgiveness. 440 00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,800 And you know, a lot of us don't want to give that humility to somebody who has offended 441 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:47,800 us. 442 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,960 You really think some people prefer a hard heart? 443 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:53,120 This shows it. 444 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,120 Over a soft one. 445 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:55,120 Yeah. 446 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:56,120 Evidence shows it. 447 00:32:56,120 --> 00:33:00,240 I don't think that cognitive, I think if you asked anybody, would you rather have a 448 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,000 hard heart or a soft heart? 449 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,400 Anybody, most anybody would tell you a soft heart. 450 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,200 But what our words say is incongruent with what our lives are lived. 451 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,400 Yeah. 452 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,280 We close them. 453 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,320 We close them and they become hard. 454 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,320 Correct. 455 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,240 And we need to open them and allow them to become soft. 456 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,600 And again, Scott, that requires a miracle. 457 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:23,600 Yeah. 458 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,960 It's not just something we do on our own. 459 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,880 We should pray. 460 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:32,040 We should pray to be able to forgive. 461 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,600 Maybe even more fervently than we pray to be forgiven. 462 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:37,600 Right. 463 00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:38,600 Really. 464 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:46,520 And that may, that may include when we repent of sin to ask God to not only forgive us, 465 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,920 but to help us to forgive ourselves. 466 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:59,440 One is the last time you, me, all of our listeners, one is the last time that you repented. 467 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:04,800 Did you pray to be able to forgive yourself? 468 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:13,320 Well, again, I know that it's not just ourselves that are capable of doing these things on 469 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,920 our own. 470 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:22,800 They come to us as miracles and they come through the, through the gift or power of 471 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,120 the Holy Ghost. 472 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:36,160 There's other examples, Scott, we can touch on in regards to amazing miracles and examples. 473 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:42,800 I'm always touched by the Chris Williams story, you know, which was several years ago here 474 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,320 in Utah, Salt Lake City. 475 00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,120 He's a bishop serving as a bishop. 476 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:58,040 He and his wife and children are in South Salt Lake, Midville, actually, I think. 477 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,040 It's late at night. 478 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:05,880 They're going home from a family activity and they're hit head on by a drunk driver, 479 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:16,720 a young man, I think 18 years old, who's been drinking and Chris sees his wife and his 480 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:19,000 daughters die. 481 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:23,480 I think his two sons may be survived. 482 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:29,400 His wife was pregnant, eight months, I think pregnant. 483 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,320 And he watches that. 484 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:39,080 And when he goes to the hospital to his sons in critical condition, one, their oldest son 485 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,800 was not with them at the time. 486 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,840 But the other, the other son is in critical condition. 487 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:55,280 And when the stake president goes to the hospital to see Chris and ask him, what can we do for 488 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:56,280 you? 489 00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:02,160 The stake president reported and you can all see this in a wonderful church video that's 490 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,040 been made about it and Chris has written a book about it. 491 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:13,240 And anyway, Chris, it responds to a stake president's question. 492 00:36:13,240 --> 00:36:17,000 How is the young man doing? 493 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:22,400 How's the young man doing? 494 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:27,160 That's pretty amazing that that was his, that was his concern. 495 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,480 And I'm also sure that Chris knew that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was there for that 496 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:36,720 young man and that was part of his thinking at the time. 497 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:47,160 But we had Chris come to the Institute of Religion at UVU Scott and so I met Chris personally 498 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:51,480 and heard the rest of the story. 499 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:57,480 And I think there's something instructive in maybe the rest of the story. 500 00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:05,880 Chris, when he was a young man, I think 16 or 17, if I recall correctly, was working 501 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,440 at the hospital, the LDS hospital. 502 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,000 And he was frantically trying to find a place to park his car to go to work. 503 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:20,240 And I think he was kind of in a hurry and as I remember it or remember thinking is that 504 00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:25,640 he was maybe a little late and he was he was rushing, he was looking for a place to find 505 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:30,640 he was driving up in the avenues of Salt Lake City where the hospital is located. 506 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:36,280 And he and he felt this bump and he looks in his rear view mirror and this woman comes 507 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,480 running out into the street screaming. 508 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:49,880 He didn't know that a young child had come down the driveway on a bike and had gone underneath 509 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,120 his car. 510 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:59,200 And he was dragging this child and this bike underneath his car and they finally get him 511 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:06,240 to stop and there's there's weeping and there's wailing and there's the police show up and 512 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:14,360 the police put him in the back seat of his car and and he's you know he right terrible 513 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:21,360 terrible terrible sequence of events and and he's there in the back of his car and all 514 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:28,240 these people are looking at him and you know judging him and all these terrible things 515 00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:34,760 that may be said or the looks at least that are given and the police questioning him and 516 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,800 all of that. 517 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:41,800 And he said he was sitting in the back of the police car all alone for a moment and he said 518 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:49,960 a woman opened up the door of the police car and a woman looked at him an older woman and 519 00:38:49,960 --> 00:39:00,640 she said young man everything will be okay I'm putting your name in the temple today. 520 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,120 And he said I didn't even know what that meant. 521 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:10,720 I didn't even know what that meant but he said as soon as she said that I felt this rush 522 00:39:10,720 --> 00:39:18,720 of spirit and peace and love and hope and confidence come over me and he said I knew 523 00:39:18,720 --> 00:39:22,120 there were angels in the car with me that moment. 524 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:29,480 Soon as she did that I felt the presence of angels because of what she did in my presence 525 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:37,880 and he said I decided that moment when he's like 16 or 17 that if that ever happened to 526 00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:45,800 me that I would forgive. 527 00:39:45,800 --> 00:39:56,440 So when this so it does happen to him and he loses his daughters his wife and baby and 528 00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:06,240 he had already decided that no matter what happened he would forgive. 529 00:40:06,240 --> 00:40:15,560 So having made that decision long before those terrible that terrible event occurred in his 530 00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:20,200 life helped him to be able to forgive. 531 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:26,960 And it's interesting that this story is also again related to Nelder Anderson's book but 532 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:35,960 I just wanted to read a part of it where he is invited this young man's name was Cameron 533 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:43,080 and Cameron of course was really like like a juvenile I think he may have been 18 but 534 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:51,760 he was in prison for a little while for drunk driving and manslaughter and he was invited 535 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:59,640 by a counselor to meet with Cameron and I just want to read a part about that event. 536 00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:04,920 After checking in at the desk I entered a small reception area where I waited the counselor. 537 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:11,040 A large thick security door opened and she stepped forward into the waiting area greeting 538 00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,600 me warmly and thanking me for being willing to come. 539 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:22,320 As we walked towards the room where I would meet Cameron my mind was quieted and I felt 540 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:27,000 a growing sense of considerable peace. 541 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:31,400 I knew that the counselor and I were not walking alone. 542 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,720 She quickly turned into a small conference where Cameron was seated waiting for us to 543 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:38,360 arrive. 544 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:46,120 We sat across from each other and Cameron unfolded a piece of paper and began to ask about my 545 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,280 life since the accident. 546 00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,560 How had it affected me he wanted to know? 547 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,800 How had it affected my surviving sons? 548 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,800 How had it affected my extended family? 549 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:09,520 He wanted more to know about Ben, Anna and Michelle to help him know them and appreciate 550 00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:10,840 who they were. 551 00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,360 I think those are Ben, Anna and Michelle. 552 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,480 Michelle is his wife. 553 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,960 They were the ones who had passed because of the accident, right? 554 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,360 And he wanted to know about them so he could appreciate them. 555 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:33,080 I don't know what I said, only what I felt, complete calm as I answered each question 556 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:38,480 as directly and concisely as I could. 557 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:47,160 Cameron then dropped the paper, looked directly into my eyes and asked, after all that I've 558 00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:55,680 done to your family, how is it that you were able to forgive me? 559 00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:05,720 I leaned forward and said, if there is anything you have seen me do or heard me say or have 560 00:43:05,720 --> 00:43:13,920 read about me regarding forgiveness, I don't know if you remember, but he put a whole letter 561 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:20,800 paid on his own to put a whole letter into the Deseret News to ask the community to forgive 562 00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:23,640 this young man because it was such a tragic event. 563 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,160 Everybody knew about it. 564 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,640 And that he had forgiven this young man and asking everyone else to forgive. 565 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:38,400 So he says, if you've read any of that, you should know something. 566 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:47,560 It was merely the Savior working through me, the spirit that filled that room was profound 567 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:53,240 as it pierced both of our hearts with an eternal truth. 568 00:43:53,240 --> 00:44:04,320 We are loved by the pure love of Jesus Christ and he wants us to fulfill our potential. 569 00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:13,280 I think that's such an amazing story and example, Scott again, it requires a miracle. 570 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,160 And I don't know if miracles just come to us. 571 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:23,080 They may sometimes because others are praying for us, but miracles don't just happen in 572 00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:28,560 our lives unless we seek them, unless we're earnest about that. 573 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:35,800 And no doubt this miracle was a result of many people's prayers, especially Chris's, 574 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,200 maybe Cameron's too. 575 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:43,000 And it requires help. 576 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:57,880 It requires an act of God through us by the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice 577 00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:05,960 delivered into our lives through the Holy Ghost to really be able to forgive others 578 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:12,520 even in such terrible, tragic, awful events as that one. 579 00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,240 I wish we had Cameron's story. 580 00:45:14,240 --> 00:45:16,640 I wish we had the rest of his story. 581 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,200 You know, we have Chris's story. 582 00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:25,560 We have that which is beautiful and in and of itself enough to inspire faith promoting 583 00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,880 forgiveness in our own lives towards others. 584 00:45:28,880 --> 00:45:32,680 But you know, we've mentioned it earlier that sometimes the most difficult forgiveness 585 00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,560 that we extend is to ourselves. 586 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,680 And I wonder, I hope Cameron has been able to work through that the same way. 587 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:45,960 I hope that he's been able to feel the same relief, the same freedom from the bondage 588 00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:52,720 of his own guilt and, you know, which is always, I was going to say worse than probably 589 00:45:52,720 --> 00:45:53,720 it really is. 590 00:45:53,720 --> 00:45:57,800 I don't know that because I haven't been through that and that's pretty that's pretty dramatic 591 00:45:57,800 --> 00:45:59,880 what what all what all took place there. 592 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:02,240 But you know, and that's the thing. 593 00:46:02,240 --> 00:46:06,480 It is sometimes a little more difficult for us to forgive ourselves. 594 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:09,200 I get to see this a lot in recovery. 595 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:15,720 You know, we have as part of our stepwork, you know, there's a house cleaning inventory 596 00:46:15,720 --> 00:46:16,720 that we do. 597 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:18,440 We've talked about that before. 598 00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:26,600 And a lot of times things will come up that will require forgiveness or to seek forgiveness 599 00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,600 for something that we've done. 600 00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:34,880 And some of the most miraculous spiritual experiences I've seen have been in those types 601 00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:42,200 of settings, you know, where spouses have forgiven husbands for infidelity and, you 602 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:49,360 know, even even infidelity against minors and so spent prison time, you know, and and 603 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:54,640 spouses have been forgiving, not all, but some, you know, and I think of what a miracle 604 00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:55,640 that is. 605 00:46:55,640 --> 00:47:01,200 You know, I know I know people, many countless people who have at the hand of a perpetrator 606 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:08,600 in their youth been sexually abused, molested or physically abused by parents or coaches 607 00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:15,080 or teachers or whatever the case may be, you know, and and just the forgiveness that I 608 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:21,280 have been able to see extended in the spirit that comes because of that in those settings, 609 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:26,600 which is really, you know, we don't it's more of a secular setting, even though, you know, 610 00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:31,520 we do bring in, you know, the power of God and we do bring in spiritual concepts. 611 00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,480 It's really not a religious experience. 612 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:35,120 It's a secular experience. 613 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:41,280 But nonetheless, the blessings come for those forgiveness that take place, right? 614 00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:49,560 And, you know, I just think that in a world where we have so many reasons for division 615 00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:55,680 and so many reasons to hold and harbor resentment and so many reasons to see ourselves as different 616 00:47:55,680 --> 00:48:02,520 from whether that's better than or worse than you there in all of those cases, we have the 617 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:11,880 world by and large has extended a huge invitation for us to hold resentments or to have bad 618 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,800 feelings towards each other or certain groups. 619 00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,600 And you know, our world would be different. 620 00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:22,120 Our whole world, our families, our lives, let's start with our individuals, our individual 621 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:23,640 lives, we'd be different. 622 00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:24,840 Our families would be different. 623 00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:27,200 Every relationship that we are in would be different. 624 00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:31,800 But the entire world and Heavenly Father's entire world would be different if we could 625 00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:37,280 just adopt the Christ-like attribute of learning how to forgive. 626 00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:43,280 Yeah, to offer mercy, to extend mercy, to extend grace. 627 00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:52,080 And Scott, there's just so much contention in our culture, in our society, in our world. 628 00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:57,760 And you know, President Nelson addressed that in the last general conference and just is 629 00:48:57,760 --> 00:49:09,200 imploring us to choose, it's a choice, to choose to offer the love of God and the love 630 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:12,800 of Christ in place of contention. 631 00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:22,440 So I think that maybe as we conclude this, I just want to read one of my favorite quotes 632 00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:28,240 on the subject from President Nookdorf when he was in the first presidency back in April 633 00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:30,800 of 2012 General Conference. 634 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:37,280 He gives this counsel, forgiving ourselves and others is not easy. 635 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:46,160 In fact, for most of us, it requires a major change in our attitude, in our way of thinking. 636 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:50,680 Even a mighty change of heart. 637 00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:57,880 This mighty change of heart is exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is designed to 638 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,960 bring into our lives. 639 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,640 How is it done? 640 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,320 Through the love of God. 641 00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:13,000 I always equate Scott the love of God with the Atonement of Jesus Christ for God's so 642 00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:14,800 love the world. 643 00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,200 He gave His only begotten Son. 644 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,440 Then Elder Nookdorf goes on. 645 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:27,880 When our hearts are filled with the love of God, something good and pure happens to us. 646 00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:33,240 We keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous. 647 00:50:33,240 --> 00:50:37,640 For whatsoever is born of God, overcomeeth the world. 648 00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:44,800 The more we allow the love of God to govern our minds and our emotions. 649 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:50,360 We talk a lot about that Scott, perfect love casts at that all fear, right? 650 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:57,760 When we allow the love of God to govern our minds and emotions, that's a choice. 651 00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:04,480 The more we allow our love for our Heavenly Father to swell within our hearts. 652 00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:09,720 The easier it is to love others with the pure love of Christ. 653 00:51:09,720 --> 00:51:18,080 As we open our hearts to the glowing dawn of the love of God, the darkness and cold 654 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:27,200 of animosity and envy and resentment will eventually fade. 655 00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,800 I know it sometimes takes time. 656 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,800 He uses the word eventually will fade. 657 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:38,200 I understand that in God's timing, in God's way. 658 00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:45,920 But I also know that sometimes it can be almost instantaneous as it was with Corey Ten Boom 659 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,800 and really as it was with Chris Williams and others. 660 00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:54,280 It may take some time, but it can also be instantaneous. 661 00:51:54,280 --> 00:52:00,400 And sometimes we have more choice and more to do with that than we think we do. 662 00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:14,080 I just want to say about this quote, if we can learn to control our minds and our emotions, 663 00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:22,960 Scott, that is what opens our hearts to feel the love of God. 664 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:31,920 And again, that love of God, charity, the pure love of Christ is what you can't feel 665 00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:44,280 hate, you can't feel resentment, you can't feel animosity and envy if your heart is filled 666 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:49,360 with charity or the pure love of Christ. 667 00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:54,880 It would probably not be a great idea, I mean we could try it, but for somebody to just 668 00:52:54,880 --> 00:53:01,720 jump right into the forgiveness part of the process here. 669 00:53:01,720 --> 00:53:02,880 It's important. 670 00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:07,560 The reason we don't just start with forgiveness, I mean here we are at the manifestations of 671 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:13,360 repentance and forgiveness is a big one of that, but we don't just jump right into the 672 00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:18,280 manifestations of repentance without going through the repentance process. 673 00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:25,960 And that's why here we are, week 31, I think, of this episode, you know, of this part of 674 00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:28,040 this season. 675 00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:33,280 Here we are, week 30 or 31, we don't just dive into forgiveness in week one, even though 676 00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:37,360 that's the end game of what we're trying to gain is forgiveness for ourselves and for 677 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,400 others and to become more like Him. 678 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,200 And that's how we become more like Him. 679 00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:43,840 But we have to begin in the very beginning, right? 680 00:53:43,840 --> 00:53:46,460 We have to understand what repentance is. 681 00:53:46,460 --> 00:53:49,040 We have to understand the foundations of repentance. 682 00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:50,040 We have to... 683 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:51,040 And what it's done. 684 00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:52,040 Exactly. 685 00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:53,040 First, right? 686 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:54,040 Yeah. 687 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,960 And then we have to understand the actions of repentance and the manifestations of repentance. 688 00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,480 The foundations of repentance. 689 00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:01,040 Yeah, that comes before the actions. 690 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:05,760 And you know, and all of that has to happen for us before we can get here. 691 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,960 So if we're struggling, and some of us are, if we're struggling, let's not try and short 692 00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:11,960 circuit this. 693 00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:12,960 All of us are. 694 00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:15,520 Okay, that's fair enough. 695 00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,120 We all are struggling. 696 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:19,080 Sinners, helping sinners. 697 00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:20,960 That's all we're doing here. 698 00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:25,840 So gang, if this is something that we are struggling with, which we probably are at 699 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:35,200 some level, maybe, maybe we go back and just take a quick or a deep assessment or an inventory 700 00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:39,800 of where we are in the repentance process for that particular thing. 701 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:41,440 How do we see them? 702 00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:42,840 How do we see ourselves? 703 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:44,000 You know, do we see? 704 00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:45,000 Do we understand? 705 00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,000 We have to go all the way back to our pre-existent experience. 706 00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,000 Identity. 707 00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:50,000 Exactly. 708 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:56,480 Because if we know who we are and whose we are, then we must know who they are and whose 709 00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:57,880 they are. 710 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:04,920 And if we, as we do that and go through again, all of this repentance process, it brings 711 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,040 us to forgiveness. 712 00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,400 It's not just out of the gate. 713 00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:10,400 It is a gift. 714 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:20,200 Listen to my last thing, final statement is from 2018 Christmas devotional. 715 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:28,440 President Russell M. Nelson, President, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, he said, quote, a gift, 716 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:39,280 the Savior's, a gift at Christmas time that the Savior offers you is the ability to forgive. 717 00:55:39,280 --> 00:55:48,960 It is usually easy to forgive one who sincerely and humbly seeks your forgiveness, but the 718 00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:59,560 Savior will grant you the ability to forgive anyone who has mistreated you in any way. 719 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:05,960 Then their hurtful acts can no longer cank your souls. 720 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,120 That's the final word. 721 00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:08,400 That's power. 722 00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:16,120 That's power in the atonement of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and a further testimony 723 00:56:16,120 --> 00:56:22,320 of His redeeming blood, which has been spelt for each and every one of us. 724 00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:23,760 Thanks for being with us today. 725 00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:24,760 Another great day. 726 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:30,720 Thanks, Dave, for your insights as always and your willingness to take time to teach 727 00:56:30,720 --> 00:56:33,160 us these important things. 728 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,320 Remember everybody, you have been redeemed through His blood. 729 00:56:35,320 --> 00:56:38,600 We look forward to being with you each and every week. 730 00:56:38,600 --> 00:57:05,760 We'll see you next week.