Hey there everybody and welcome back to another episode of Redeem Through His Blood.
This is Scott Durfee joined as always by David Durfee.
What's up Dave?
It's always great to be with you Scott.
I have a conversation about some of these important principles on repentance and forgiveness.
The manifestations of forgiveness and forgiveness.
One of the main ones that we've identified, if not the main one, is definitely forgiveness.
So Dave, where do we go?
Well, last time we talked about the commandment.
Remind everyone that it's a commandment that we forgive all men that would certainly include
ourselves, that we have a forgiving heart, that we follow Christ's example.
I don't think, I don't know if we said that last week Scott, but you know one of his last
seven statements, seven statements he makes from the cross, right in the middle of those
seven statements is when he looks down at the Roman soldiers and others and pronounces
forgive them father for they know not what they do.
I think that's so true for so many wrongs and mistakes and hurt and so many people are
just out of their mind and they don't know what they do and they don't understand.
And Jesus was forgiving.
God is forgiving.
I love the lectures on faith.
We talked about how forgiving, how merciful, how gracious.
He is a forgiving being.
He loves to forgive.
Why wouldn't he?
Otherwise all of his suffering, all of his pain, all of his blood that he shed would
be in vain.
So he's anxious to forgive.
There's so many examples of that in the scriptures.
The woman caught in the very act of adultery.
He wouldn't condemn.
It's true that he didn't forgive her there and then, but he wanted to.
I know he wanted to and tells her, go that way and sin no more knowing that forgiveness
would come soon if, if her heart was right and she did right.
The woman that washes his feet in Luke chapter seven because she loved much.
She received much mercy and there's just so many examples Scott of how quick he is to
forgive and, and I know that's true for individuals who are sitting today.
That's true for me, true for you, true for my family, your family.
I know that's true.
I feel that and you know, it's, it's really kind of amazing because as a natural man,
when I sin, I would probably, if it were somebody in my family that I knew was doing that, it
would probably take me a while to forgive and get over it.
You know, it amazes me that when I, now I, I know we're just sinners, help and sinners
and I'm not any better than anybody else, but it always amazes me when I repent, how
quickly, speedily I am forgiven.
Yeah.
And I, I feel it.
I know it.
And I go, wow.
Wow.
I know I'm feeling the Holy Ghost, so I must be forgiven in that.
I just not worthy.
I'm not worthy to be forgiven.
And it's kind of interesting that that's what King Benjamin brings up in his discourse
after he's seen the people fall down and repent and then he tells them, remember your unworthiness.
None of us are, are worthy or will be totally worthy or what, what's the word?
None of us will earn it.
It comes totally as a gift, just as a free gift.
If we will just ask and receive it.
I know that's true not only for forgiveness of our own sins, but it's also true for the
gift to be able to forgive others.
And we spent a lot of time on that last week, Scott, but I want to today continue that discussion,
maybe give some examples of it and maybe talk a little bit about the, the blessings of forgiving
ourselves and others and how is it possible?
You know, I, I think that's really an important part of this is how can we do it?
I know there's a lot of people in the church, Scott, who, and I'm not, I'm not one judge,
but, but I, I guess I've just, I'm old enough and had enough experience and know some individuals
who are close enough to me that I know that there are individuals who still hold grudges
and maybe even I do in some cases, Scott, you know, I, I've been offended.
I've been hurt.
I think the greatest hurt we go through is when someone hurts our children or they hurt
our wife, our spouse, or they hurt someone we really love.
I think it's easier for me to forgive when somebody hurts me than it is for me to forgive
someone when they've hurt somebody that I really love.
I've been through that experience.
I've, I've been hurt by the church.
The church has hurt me and hurt my children.
Uh, you know, and it's true for all of us, really.
I had a new thought this week.
I think it came from Brother Stephen Harper, but, um, I was listening to him and he says,
you know, what's the, he was asking, I think the question, what is the full name of the
church?
And so I'm going to ask you, Scott, what's the full name of the church?
The church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
There's two ofs.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Okay.
So of Christ.
No problem there.
Yeah.
No problem there.
Yeah.
Perfect, uh, totally, uh, sinless.
Um, well, that's, that's what I choose to, to dwell on.
It's the second of that presents us with problems.
Yeah.
Because that's us.
That's the people.
That's the mortality component of, uh, of this whole thing.
The church of Jesus Christ of God.
Yeah.
Perfected.
Immortal.
Uh, exalted.
And then we have the church of the Latter-day Saints, human sinners.
Uh, you know, uh, it's just, we can't, we can't avoid that reality.
No.
And that comes with all of the, uh, ugly little things that come with it too.
Yeah.
Pride and deception and that just so, so much other stuff too.
Oh, I was, uh, I spent a little time with someone recently who just really, uh, I don't
really struggle with the culture of the church.
And I, I get that.
I actually really understand that because at times I have two and, and I know that's
my problem.
Right.
That's my heart problem.
Uh, if I, if I struggle with people in the church or, uh, collectively as a church and
I can get tired of the culture of, uh, I don't know.
I don't, I don't want to make any judgments, but you get you as a member of the church,
it's sometimes hard to see all of the people with all of their different motives and all
of their different, uh, personalities and all of their different, uh, weaknesses.
And I know I have all those too.
I know people are looking at me and have a problem with me.
I get that.
And that's, that's the, that's the reality.
That's the culture, the church of the Latter-day Saints.
And, uh, it's hard for us to sometimes get over that.
And we just have to be, make sure our heart is right and that we have, uh, more mercy
and more grace that we understand the principle that you receive grace for grace.
You receive mercy for mercy.
I, I know it's true.
We receive forgiveness as we are willing and able to forgive, but I, I think there's one
point Scott that I don't know if we made strong enough last time and that is, um, how is it
possible?
How is it possible for us to forgive?
And I, I think one of the things that's really, um, helpful strengthening to me in order to
help me to forgive is when I realized this truth, that the Atonement of Jesus Christ
covers not only the sins committed, but it covers all of the effects of all the sins
committed.
It covers all of the pain, all of the negatives that are the consequences of all the sins
of all the world.
That helps me to forgive others because when, when, um, someone in your family is hurt,
I mean really drastically hurt by members of the church or sometimes even leaders of
the church.
Uh, if there are negative consequences that come out of that and, and there are Jesus Christ
suffered for that too.
And when negatives, uh, create other negatives, for example, it seems to me that when, uh,
someone is, uh, abused, oftentimes they become the abuser that, that negatives beget negatives
and you get in that cycle.
It's just really important for us to remember that Jesus Christ covered all of that too.
Now I'm not excusing, not excusing anyone's behavior or not holding them accountable because
they will be held accountable, but I, I know that Jesus anticipated that.
He knew that.
He made ample provision for that and that it's covered so that when, um, someone hurts
me or my family, I know that Jesus suffered for all of that hurt and for all of the negative
consequences that comes from the offense or the abuse or, or whatever it may be.
And, uh, that, that seems to give me the hope and the, the, the faith necessary, which I
believe are totally necessary in order to forgive others.
This is difficult for me to, you know, to, to offer forgiveness.
I've been offended and sometimes I'm offended still at some of the dumbest things, you know,
by my own judgment.
I mean, they just really are, you know, Deb and I, I, you know, we, we have a phenomenal
relationship.
We're best friends.
We really are, you know that.
And you know, we've, uh, in large part, uh, you know, have, have this wonderful relationship
because of the backgrounds that we've both been through.
You know, we have Deb's interview, uh, I think it was episode 17 or whatever of, um, season
one, if you want to go back and hear that.
And, you know, and I'm pretty forthcoming with, you know, all of my past as on a kind
of a weekly basis here.
But you know, the other day, um, you know, we're, we're a couple and, uh, we sometimes
say things that can hurt each other inadvertently and sometimes even on purpose, right?
And I got offended.
And, uh, man, I hung on to that and I was justified in my being offended, you know, in
my own mind, in my own, um, fallen mind, in my own natural man mind, you know, and finally
at one point I just prayed and I said, Emily father, I feel lousy right now.
And I know why, um, but I'm just having a really hard time letting go of, you know,
something that she said, which was really no big deal.
I mean, it just really wasn't no big deal.
And then, um, it was like almost I heard it.
I didn't, but it was almost like I heard it.
But all of this stuff that we've been talking about in all of my life, and you know, interestingly
enough yesterday, you know, I was in the temple and, you know, love the, the imagery there,
love the temple, how it helps us to come again in contact with a deeper level of understanding
of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and what that really means to enter into the temple,
to enter into a covenant with Jesus Christ and all that.
But anyway, I got this response to my prayer.
Um, why don't you go out?
I'm not slow to forgive you.
Yeah.
You know, exactly.
And he's sinless.
Yeah.
And you're not far from it, right?
And so that was a little bit of an experience I have.
But you know, as you were going on, some of the things that I was thinking about, and
this was, this is some of the stuff that we really try to make impressionable drive
home, if you will, in our Institute classes that we teach on this topic, that even that,
even this inability or seemingly inability that we sometimes have to not forgive others
or whatever is also a result of the fall.
It's one of the negative effects of the fall.
Because you know, there's two major negative effects that come from the fall.
First one is spiritual death.
The second one is physical death.
Well, because of my spiritual death, I'm not with Heavenly Father in His presence on a
constant basis.
I'm not in His presence on a constant basis.
And if I don't have His Spirit with me, if I haven't taken upon me adequately His name
like I covenant it, renewed the covenant to do when I partake of the sacrament, if I haven't
done that, then the effects of the fall are kind of running my life, or at least that
part of my life.
Yeah.
But it's when I am able to put on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, it is when I am able to take
upon me His name and through covenant and through covenant relationship and through a relationship
and a connection to Heavenly Father, to Jesus Christ, through the Holy Spirit, and all of
them, then that's when the effects of the fall are also answered through Christ's Atonement
even in this part of my life.
You know, so often we think of the Atonement of Jesus Christ being an important thing for
us only because of repentance, only to forgive us of our sins.
Well it's much more than just that.
It's so much more than just that.
It gives us the, you know, getting back to that enabling power, that it enables us to
also forgive others through the Spirit and so on.
And so, you know, we're going to talk about and focus a lot on forgiveness, but let's
remember that it is because of the fall of Adam that we have the problem.
The fall of Adam and Eve creates the problem and it's the Atonement of Jesus Christ and
His power through His Atonement that answers the problem even when it comes to this, actually
even when it comes to anything.
Yeah.
Well, Scott, so you've hit on a few key points.
I really believe, Scott, that my experience and there are some people even outside the
church who are, I don't know, more easily, I don't know if that's the word, but more
willing maybe, have a more tendency or more of a personality or character of forgiving
others.
I think sometimes in the church, Scott, because of our problems with perfectionism and merit
ocracy, where we think we can earn salvation or it has to be, if anyone believes it has
to be earned or that we're supposed to be perfect in this life, which is often totally
misinterpreted, meaning sinless.
And those are two different things, perfections, being sinless.
But anyway, we have some false expectations in this church.
We really do.
Now, I see some individuals outside the church who have been through such terrible, horrible
things.
Some of them I know personally, some of them I've seen in the news, read their stories,
and how quickly they're able to forgive because they know they're not any better than anybody
else.
And they just have the certain, you know, I remember, again, Garrison Keeler, a prairie
home companion back in Minnesota, when I lived in Minnesota, I went to a few of his shows
and he was, you know, such a liberal and so Lutheran, liberal Lutheran.
And he would talk about, oh, Lutherans, we all know that we're evil.
You know, we all know that we're sinners.
We all know that we're evil.
And he would often talk about that.
And it was a perspective that I thought, you know, as Latter-day Saints sometimes, we think
because we're the elect, because we're chosen, because we're special, we get this idea that
if we do anything wrong or anybody does anything wrong to us, we take it so much more seriously
sometimes, and it becomes such a major deal for us, then it makes it sometimes harder
to forgive.
I have a friend, and he always says this jokingly, but I think it applies here, because he'll
say, don't you know who I am?
You know, and I think that that's kind of, we kind of, you know, as sometimes act, I
think sometimes, you know, and I think I need to be careful not to just cast a blanket dispersion
over everybody.
But that's sometimes our culture.
It's prevalent.
There's no question.
Part of our culture.
I don't really like sometimes.
Yeah.
Myself.
I mean, I don't know.
Maybe you just speak for myself.
But I know that I've come to this conclusion, Scott.
There's nothing that Jesus hates more than self-righteousness.
And sometimes our self-righteousness really gets in the way of being able to forgive others,
including ourselves.
I mean, self-righteousness sets us up to fail.
Including the failure to forgive ourselves.
Well, inarguably, maybe even especially to forgive ourselves.
Yeah.
Right?
Because, you know, that when we subscribe to a set of principles that include in our
minds, whether it's true or not, it is irrelevant.
It's the perception of whether it's true or not to the individual that matters.
And when we perceive that to be true, that can really play with us in ways that can be
confusing.
We put ourselves right in the hands of the enemy, unknowingly, when we do this.
He has control to a certain degree of our life when we do that.
And so, you know, as we talk about this forgiveness, you know, of ourselves and others, both of
those are going to be really important for us.
I remember President Faust years ago in conference referring to the story about the Amish community.
Yeah.
Who, I can't remember the man, but he wasn't Amish, who went into the little schoolhouse
and killed several of the children.
And the story is, and they made a movie, I think, out of that.
I think you're right.
Yeah, they called the story.
The story in book and national news and President Faust was so sweet to tenderly share that
story as an example of how the Amish community, who know their sinners.
Oh, yeah.
And their reverence for God and their sacrifices and their lifestyle is all based upon knowing
that they are not worthy, how dependent they are upon upon God.
Anyway, they have a lot of, I think, great things about their community and their faith.
But how that all the Amish fathers and mothers and children came together and prayed for
that man's family and how quickly they were willing to forgive.
It was it was an amazing story.
And there are so many other examples of that outside of the church of people who are who
are willing able through through, I believe, the power, at least the power of the Holy
Ghost in the light of Christ to be able to forgive.
And part of it's because of the difference perspective they have of who they are.
And they understand the commandment of God, which is given over and over again by him
throughout the scriptures that you must love your enemy and forgive those who hurt you.
And if you don't forgive, you're not going to be forgiven.
So I just think that sometimes in the church, we don't take that serious enough and sometimes
it may be a little more difficult for us.
Elder Anderson in the book on this chapter of forgiveness through forgiving.
I love the title of the chapter, chapter 21.
Forgiveness through forgiving.
He shares the story that was told by Bishop McMullen years ago in general conference about
Corey Ten Boom.
And I've I've always loved that book, The Hiding Place, recommended to all of our listeners
to read that book.
It's an amazing book about about this wonderful Christian family who was trying to to hide
and protect Jewish neighbors, friends.
Then they be they were caught and it's it's amazing story of how her and her sister and
her family were sent to the gas chambers and and her and her sister went to a concentration
camp.
Her sister dies in the concentration camp.
It's an amazing story.
Wonderful book.
Anyway, at one point near the end of the book, Corey Ten Boom, who's the author and and
sister surviving, I think maybe the only surviving member of her family.
Anyway, he she she shares the experience she had coming face to face with one of her Nazi
captors.
So I'm just going to read part of this and it's from again the April 2010 General Conference.
In Holland, during World War Two, the Casper Ten Boom family used their home as a hiding
place for those hunted by the Nazis.
This was their way of living out their Christian faith.
Four members of the family lost their lives for providing this refuge.
Corey Ten Boom and her sister Betsy spent horrific months in the infamous Ravensbrook
concentration camp and Betsy died there.
Corey was the only to survive.
In Ravensbrook, Corey and Betsy learned that God helps us to forgive.
Following the war, Corey was determined to share this message.
On one occasion, she had just spoken to a group of people in Germany suffering from
the ravages of war.
Her message was God forgives.
It was then that Corey Ten Boom's faithfulness brought forth its blessing.
A man approached her after she had spoken in this church.
A man approached her.
She recognized him as one of the cruelest guards in the camp.
And he said, you mentioned Ravensbrook in your talk.
He said, I was a guard there.
But since that time, I have become a Christian.
He explained that he had sought God's forgiveness for the cruel things he had done.
He extended his hand and asked, will you forgive me?
Can you imagine that?
Corey Ten Boom then said, quote from her book, it could not have been many seconds that
he stood there with his hand held out.
But to me, it seemed ours as I wrestled with the most difficult thing I had ever had to
do.
The message that God forgives has a condition that we forgive those who have injured us.
Help me.
I prayed silently.
I can lift my hand.
I can do that much.
But you, God, have to supply the feeling.
Woodenly, mechanically, I thrust my hand into the one stretched out to me.
As I did, an incredible thing took place.
The current, the current, like an electrical current, started in my shoulder, raced down
my arm, spraying into our joined hands.
And then this healing warmth seemed to flood over my whole being, bringing tears to my
eyes.
I forgive you, brother, I cried, with all my heart.
For a long moment, we grasped each other's hands, the former guard and the former prisoner.
I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then.
Well, I think that's an amazing example, Scott, of not only an example of the miracle of
being able to forgive others, which I believe is much a miracle for sure as us being forgiven
by God.
He supplies, he supplies the feeling.
To be able to forgive others is not something again that we just do on our own.
The ability, the strength, the understanding, the willingness, the power to forgive others
is given to us as a gift from God.
So it's not just members of the church, and it's not even just Christian people.
I know that there are so many other examples of people who are willing to forgive, and I
know that in every one of those cases, there are blessings that follow that miracle.
Yeah, there's no question about that.
In fact, one of those blessings that follow that miracle, Corey Tamboom, the very last
sentence of what you just read, I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then.
I wonder what we would pay.
I want to solve.
This is an invitation for us to all just pause for a second right now.
What would we give to fill God's love so intensely, more intensely than we have ever
felt it before?
Think back to the last time or to the most intense time that you can think of when you,
with the most intensity, felt God's love.
What would you give to fill that again, but even more?
Maybe maybe maybe exponentially more from the way this sounds, because of the extremity
of this story, the extremity of the love must have probably matched it.
And so we get into and we talk about this a lot.
We've talked about it in the past couple of weeks.
I know for sure that there's a payoff to the things that we do.
And so that payoff can come as either a negative or a positive, you know.
So what would we be willing to give?
I really want us to, I know I'm saying it over and over again, but I really want us
to consider what would you be willing to give to fill God's love?
I had never known God's love so intensely as I did then.
And would we be willing to give that forgiveness?
There's a lot of us, a lot of us that are listening to this podcast today who have reason
to harbor resentment, who have reason to not forgive, who have reason to feel animosity
towards people that we love or have loved or who have loved us or people who maybe we
haven't loved.
You know, maybe even it's easier for us to to harbor and hang on to not forgiving to
people that we don't love because we don't love them.
There's no emotional investment there.
Well there actually is an emotional investment there and that emotional investment is is
manifest to us or is evidenced through that feeling of hanging on to a resentment or whatever
non-forgiveness looks like to us.
Well Scott, that's the problem.
Yeah, it is.
The problem is not that just we're not able or not willing to forgive.
The real problem is, is that it's the resentment.
Yeah.
The resentment is the resentment that we have towards others which create this this hardness
of heart which makes us incapable on our own of being able to forgive others.
And until our heart becomes soft, we let go of the resentment, we let go of thinking that
we're entitled, we let go of our self-righteousness thinking we're better than anyone else or
holding higher expectations than we should for any other person, even ourselves.
All of that is the problem.
It's not just that we're not able or willing to forgive.
It's what's behind all of that.
What's in our heart, what we harbor in our hearts.
What's it going to cost me if I do forgive?
If I forgive you, then I don't have this resentment anymore and I have learned to love this resentment
because this resentment justifies me in so much of my bad behaviors and so much of my
bad emotions and so much of, because you know, there's a little bit of work.
And not only that, not only that, but there's a strong amount of humility that has to be
demonstrated when we offer that forgiveness.
And you know, a lot of us don't want to give that humility to somebody who has offended
us.
You really think some people prefer a hard heart?
This shows it.
Over a soft one.
Yeah.
Evidence shows it.
I don't think that cognitive, I think if you asked anybody, would you rather have a
hard heart or a soft heart?
Anybody, most anybody would tell you a soft heart.
But what our words say is incongruent with what our lives are lived.
Yeah.
We close them.
We close them and they become hard.
Correct.
And we need to open them and allow them to become soft.
And again, Scott, that requires a miracle.
Yeah.
It's not just something we do on our own.
We should pray.
We should pray to be able to forgive.
Maybe even more fervently than we pray to be forgiven.
Right.
Really.
And that may, that may include when we repent of sin to ask God to not only forgive us,
but to help us to forgive ourselves.
One is the last time you, me, all of our listeners, one is the last time that you repented.
Did you pray to be able to forgive yourself?
Well, again, I know that it's not just ourselves that are capable of doing these things on
our own.
They come to us as miracles and they come through the, through the gift or power of
the Holy Ghost.
There's other examples, Scott, we can touch on in regards to amazing miracles and examples.
I'm always touched by the Chris Williams story, you know, which was several years ago here
in Utah, Salt Lake City.
He's a bishop serving as a bishop.
He and his wife and children are in South Salt Lake, Midville, actually, I think.
It's late at night.
They're going home from a family activity and they're hit head on by a drunk driver,
a young man, I think 18 years old, who's been drinking and Chris sees his wife and his
daughters die.
I think his two sons may be survived.
His wife was pregnant, eight months, I think pregnant.
And he watches that.
And when he goes to the hospital to his sons in critical condition, one, their oldest son
was not with them at the time.
But the other, the other son is in critical condition.
And when the stake president goes to the hospital to see Chris and ask him, what can we do for
you?
The stake president reported and you can all see this in a wonderful church video that's
been made about it and Chris has written a book about it.
And anyway, Chris, it responds to a stake president's question.
How is the young man doing?
How's the young man doing?
That's pretty amazing that that was his, that was his concern.
And I'm also sure that Chris knew that the Atonement of Jesus Christ was there for that
young man and that was part of his thinking at the time.
But we had Chris come to the Institute of Religion at UVU Scott and so I met Chris personally
and heard the rest of the story.
And I think there's something instructive in maybe the rest of the story.
Chris, when he was a young man, I think 16 or 17, if I recall correctly, was working
at the hospital, the LDS hospital.
And he was frantically trying to find a place to park his car to go to work.
And I think he was kind of in a hurry and as I remember it or remember thinking is that
he was maybe a little late and he was he was rushing, he was looking for a place to find
he was driving up in the avenues of Salt Lake City where the hospital is located.
And he and he felt this bump and he looks in his rear view mirror and this woman comes
running out into the street screaming.
He didn't know that a young child had come down the driveway on a bike and had gone underneath
his car.
And he was dragging this child and this bike underneath his car and they finally get him
to stop and there's there's weeping and there's wailing and there's the police show up and
the police put him in the back seat of his car and and he's you know he right terrible
terrible terrible sequence of events and and he's there in the back of his car and all
these people are looking at him and you know judging him and all these terrible things
that may be said or the looks at least that are given and the police questioning him and
all of that.
And he said he was sitting in the back of the police car all alone for a moment and he said
a woman opened up the door of the police car and a woman looked at him an older woman and
she said young man everything will be okay I'm putting your name in the temple today.
And he said I didn't even know what that meant.
I didn't even know what that meant but he said as soon as she said that I felt this rush
of spirit and peace and love and hope and confidence come over me and he said I knew
there were angels in the car with me that moment.
Soon as she did that I felt the presence of angels because of what she did in my presence
and he said I decided that moment when he's like 16 or 17 that if that ever happened to
me that I would forgive.
So when this so it does happen to him and he loses his daughters his wife and baby and
he had already decided that no matter what happened he would forgive.
So having made that decision long before those terrible that terrible event occurred in his
life helped him to be able to forgive.
And it's interesting that this story is also again related to Nelder Anderson's book but
I just wanted to read a part of it where he is invited this young man's name was Cameron
and Cameron of course was really like like a juvenile I think he may have been 18 but
he was in prison for a little while for drunk driving and manslaughter and he was invited
by a counselor to meet with Cameron and I just want to read a part about that event.
After checking in at the desk I entered a small reception area where I waited the counselor.
A large thick security door opened and she stepped forward into the waiting area greeting
me warmly and thanking me for being willing to come.
As we walked towards the room where I would meet Cameron my mind was quieted and I felt
a growing sense of considerable peace.
I knew that the counselor and I were not walking alone.
She quickly turned into a small conference where Cameron was seated waiting for us to
arrive.
We sat across from each other and Cameron unfolded a piece of paper and began to ask about my
life since the accident.
How had it affected me he wanted to know?
How had it affected my surviving sons?
How had it affected my extended family?
He wanted more to know about Ben, Anna and Michelle to help him know them and appreciate
who they were.
I think those are Ben, Anna and Michelle.
Michelle is his wife.
They were the ones who had passed because of the accident, right?
And he wanted to know about them so he could appreciate them.
I don't know what I said, only what I felt, complete calm as I answered each question
as directly and concisely as I could.
Cameron then dropped the paper, looked directly into my eyes and asked, after all that I've
done to your family, how is it that you were able to forgive me?
I leaned forward and said, if there is anything you have seen me do or heard me say or have
read about me regarding forgiveness, I don't know if you remember, but he put a whole letter
paid on his own to put a whole letter into the Deseret News to ask the community to forgive
this young man because it was such a tragic event.
Everybody knew about it.
And that he had forgiven this young man and asking everyone else to forgive.
So he says, if you've read any of that, you should know something.
It was merely the Savior working through me, the spirit that filled that room was profound
as it pierced both of our hearts with an eternal truth.
We are loved by the pure love of Jesus Christ and he wants us to fulfill our potential.
I think that's such an amazing story and example, Scott again, it requires a miracle.
And I don't know if miracles just come to us.
They may sometimes because others are praying for us, but miracles don't just happen in
our lives unless we seek them, unless we're earnest about that.
And no doubt this miracle was a result of many people's prayers, especially Chris's,
maybe Cameron's too.
And it requires help.
It requires an act of God through us by the power of Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice
delivered into our lives through the Holy Ghost to really be able to forgive others
even in such terrible, tragic, awful events as that one.
I wish we had Cameron's story.
I wish we had the rest of his story.
You know, we have Chris's story.
We have that which is beautiful and in and of itself enough to inspire faith promoting
forgiveness in our own lives towards others.
But you know, we've mentioned it earlier that sometimes the most difficult forgiveness
that we extend is to ourselves.
And I wonder, I hope Cameron has been able to work through that the same way.
I hope that he's been able to feel the same relief, the same freedom from the bondage
of his own guilt and, you know, which is always, I was going to say worse than probably
it really is.
I don't know that because I haven't been through that and that's pretty that's pretty dramatic
what what all what all took place there.
But you know, and that's the thing.
It is sometimes a little more difficult for us to forgive ourselves.
I get to see this a lot in recovery.
You know, we have as part of our stepwork, you know, there's a house cleaning inventory
that we do.
We've talked about that before.
And a lot of times things will come up that will require forgiveness or to seek forgiveness
for something that we've done.
And some of the most miraculous spiritual experiences I've seen have been in those types
of settings, you know, where spouses have forgiven husbands for infidelity and, you
know, even even infidelity against minors and so spent prison time, you know, and and
spouses have been forgiving, not all, but some, you know, and I think of what a miracle
that is.
You know, I know I know people, many countless people who have at the hand of a perpetrator
in their youth been sexually abused, molested or physically abused by parents or coaches
or teachers or whatever the case may be, you know, and and just the forgiveness that I
have been able to see extended in the spirit that comes because of that in those settings,
which is really, you know, we don't it's more of a secular setting, even though, you know,
we do bring in, you know, the power of God and we do bring in spiritual concepts.
It's really not a religious experience.
It's a secular experience.
But nonetheless, the blessings come for those forgiveness that take place, right?
And, you know, I just think that in a world where we have so many reasons for division
and so many reasons to hold and harbor resentment and so many reasons to see ourselves as different
from whether that's better than or worse than you there in all of those cases, we have the
world by and large has extended a huge invitation for us to hold resentments or to have bad
feelings towards each other or certain groups.
And you know, our world would be different.
Our whole world, our families, our lives, let's start with our individuals, our individual
lives, we'd be different.
Our families would be different.
Every relationship that we are in would be different.
But the entire world and Heavenly Father's entire world would be different if we could
just adopt the Christ-like attribute of learning how to forgive.
Yeah, to offer mercy, to extend mercy, to extend grace.
And Scott, there's just so much contention in our culture, in our society, in our world.
And you know, President Nelson addressed that in the last general conference and just is
imploring us to choose, it's a choice, to choose to offer the love of God and the love
of Christ in place of contention.
So I think that maybe as we conclude this, I just want to read one of my favorite quotes
on the subject from President Nookdorf when he was in the first presidency back in April
of 2012 General Conference.
He gives this counsel, forgiving ourselves and others is not easy.
In fact, for most of us, it requires a major change in our attitude, in our way of thinking.
Even a mighty change of heart.
This mighty change of heart is exactly what the Gospel of Jesus Christ is designed to
bring into our lives.
How is it done?
Through the love of God.
I always equate Scott the love of God with the Atonement of Jesus Christ for God's so
love the world.
He gave His only begotten Son.
Then Elder Nookdorf goes on.
When our hearts are filled with the love of God, something good and pure happens to us.
We keep His commandments and His commandments are not grievous.
For whatsoever is born of God, overcomeeth the world.
The more we allow the love of God to govern our minds and our emotions.
We talk a lot about that Scott, perfect love casts at that all fear, right?
When we allow the love of God to govern our minds and emotions, that's a choice.
The more we allow our love for our Heavenly Father to swell within our hearts.
The easier it is to love others with the pure love of Christ.
As we open our hearts to the glowing dawn of the love of God, the darkness and cold
of animosity and envy and resentment will eventually fade.
I know it sometimes takes time.
He uses the word eventually will fade.
I understand that in God's timing, in God's way.
But I also know that sometimes it can be almost instantaneous as it was with Corey Ten Boom
and really as it was with Chris Williams and others.
It may take some time, but it can also be instantaneous.
And sometimes we have more choice and more to do with that than we think we do.
I just want to say about this quote, if we can learn to control our minds and our emotions,
Scott, that is what opens our hearts to feel the love of God.
And again, that love of God, charity, the pure love of Christ is what you can't feel
hate, you can't feel resentment, you can't feel animosity and envy if your heart is filled
with charity or the pure love of Christ.
It would probably not be a great idea, I mean we could try it, but for somebody to just
jump right into the forgiveness part of the process here.
It's important.
The reason we don't just start with forgiveness, I mean here we are at the manifestations of
repentance and forgiveness is a big one of that, but we don't just jump right into the
manifestations of repentance without going through the repentance process.
And that's why here we are, week 31, I think, of this episode, you know, of this part of
this season.
Here we are, week 30 or 31, we don't just dive into forgiveness in week one, even though
that's the end game of what we're trying to gain is forgiveness for ourselves and for
others and to become more like Him.
And that's how we become more like Him.
But we have to begin in the very beginning, right?
We have to understand what repentance is.
We have to understand the foundations of repentance.
We have to...
And what it's done.
Exactly.
First, right?
Yeah.
And then we have to understand the actions of repentance and the manifestations of repentance.
The foundations of repentance.
Yeah, that comes before the actions.
And you know, and all of that has to happen for us before we can get here.
So if we're struggling, and some of us are, if we're struggling, let's not try and short
circuit this.
All of us are.
Okay, that's fair enough.
We all are struggling.
Sinners, helping sinners.
That's all we're doing here.
So gang, if this is something that we are struggling with, which we probably are at
some level, maybe, maybe we go back and just take a quick or a deep assessment or an inventory
of where we are in the repentance process for that particular thing.
How do we see them?
How do we see ourselves?
You know, do we see?
Do we understand?
We have to go all the way back to our pre-existent experience.
Identity.
Exactly.
Because if we know who we are and whose we are, then we must know who they are and whose
they are.
And if we, as we do that and go through again, all of this repentance process, it brings
us to forgiveness.
It's not just out of the gate.
It is a gift.
Listen to my last thing, final statement is from 2018 Christmas devotional.
President Russell M. Nelson, President, Prophet, Seer, Revelator, he said, quote, a gift,
the Savior's, a gift at Christmas time that the Savior offers you is the ability to forgive.
It is usually easy to forgive one who sincerely and humbly seeks your forgiveness, but the
Savior will grant you the ability to forgive anyone who has mistreated you in any way.
Then their hurtful acts can no longer cank your souls.
That's the final word.
That's power.
That's power in the atonement of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and a further testimony
of His redeeming blood, which has been spelt for each and every one of us.
Thanks for being with us today.
Another great day.
Thanks, Dave, for your insights as always and your willingness to take time to teach
us these important things.
Remember everybody, you have been redeemed through His blood.
We look forward to being with you each and every week.
We'll see you next week.