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Hey there everybody welcome back to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood.

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This is Scott Durfee joined as always by the one and only Dave Durfee.

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What's up Dave?

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Hello Scott I'm enjoying our conversations the last few we've had.

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You know I think this part of our course on repentance and forgiveness is something

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that I personally need so much help with that it just seems so relevant and I always love

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it when we can talk about this because it gives me so much personally to work on.

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I mean this is kind of the meat and potatoes or where the rubber hits the road or however

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I don't know our listeners want to see it but this is really kind of the bottom line.

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I know we call forgiving others and forgiving ourselves as a manifestation of our repentance

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but it's also really kind of the bottom line of our repentance is the gift, the gift it

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is a gift to be able to forgive ourselves and to forgive our others.

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A gift from God, a gift that comes to us through the Holy Ghost.

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So it's just I just always love reviewing this for my own personal sake and benefit

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and I hope it's blessing others who may be listening.

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Definitely a benefit to me as well.

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I think last episode I shared a personal experience that I had in being slow or feeling like it

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was slow to forgive and you know this is something for me too and I think it has pretty much

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universal application here.

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This is something that is difficult for me on several levels and depending on the situation

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it can be more difficult or less difficult and depending on the person to whom I need

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to extend forgiveness it can be more difficult or less difficult and you know there's, you

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know we talked earlier I think that there's some categories, we don't really love using

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that word but there's some things that I think that you helped me to be able to understand

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that we can help us in our forgiveness process here and that's really about the way that

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we forgive.

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You know why is it that for some of us sometimes it's easy for us to forgive others but not

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ourselves.

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You know and there's so many other things.

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I can think of individuals that fit that description.

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Yeah.

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I've been that person.

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They forgive everybody except themselves.

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I've been that person before.

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I don't know if I ever have.

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I think I have.

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Yeah.

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I think I have.

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And you know and we'll get into this you know there's a couple of things that come into

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this shame and guilt and you know we get back to the old payoff.

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There's some payoffs sometimes to not forgive ourselves too.

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You know.

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Well let's, so for example if I'm not forgiving myself, if I abase myself then you know through

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that putting myself down I think it kind of relieves me of some responsibility.

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Some responsibility to step up.

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What was me?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Definitely.

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Or maybe even some responsibility to respond to some feelings that I've had for service

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or leadership or teaching or whatever the case may be.

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You know because it lulls me away.

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Again we get back to that.

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That scripture in 2nd Nephi 28 you know it lulls me away into carnal security.

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That is carnal security sometimes to feel hey I'm just so far broken.

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I don't know if I'll ever be able to forgive myself.

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Yeah okay.

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So there's that group.

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What's another one?

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So let's read number one.

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Number one is it's easy for me to forgive myself but it's a little more difficult for

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me to forgive others.

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That's the first one.

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The second one.

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It's really hard for somebody.

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It's really I'm just going to use the I mean I put it all in I form.

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It's really it's really difficult for me to forgive others but I can forgive myself really

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easily.

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That's the second one.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I see people who do that.

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I think that's a little bit of a form of self-righteousness.

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Yeah.

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Right?

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Yeah.

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Pride.

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The pride that you know not seeing our own sins.

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You know not seeing our own wretchedness as Nephi puts it is a problem for many and as

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a result they see the huge this is the beam and the the beam and the the moat.

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The moat right?

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That's right.

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That Jesus describes.

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Yeah that's a problem for me and for I think many others.

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Yeah I think you know you and I have talked both there's a guy at Floss Furtby way you

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see Terry Warner who developed this program he started the Arbinger group and a lot of

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what is talked about in there is how we see each other.

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Yeah.

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That's what it really boils down to do we see each other as people or do we see each

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other as objects or do we see each other as insignificant or indifferent.

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It really comes down to and in the objects there's a kind of.

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Fire it.

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Exactly.

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You know.

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Yeah and there's a couple of things in the objects we can see people as vehicles you

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know where we use people to get us to get things done or we see them as obstacles where

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they stand as barriers in us wanting to receive what we want to receive and I think a lot of

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that mindset comes into that why is it difficult for me to forgive not just myself but others

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but maybe even more others because you know and they use in that program in the Arbinger

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group they use they use words like horrible eyes you know I horrible eyes what others

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have done and I and I what's the word for what I've done I extol my eyes or I extol

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virtues that aren't there or or or or make them bigger than than they really really

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are you know and I have a way of we have a way as humans of kind of being able to do

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all that too.

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So that's another one you know slow to forgive others but it's easy to forgive myself.

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Okay third one.

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Well this one I think and maybe we all kind of fall into all of these from time to time

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or sure you know and maybe and maybe we can exist in several of these different stages

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of our lives or even simultaneously you know maybe so you know maybe so the third one and

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these are in no particular order we've just this is a way that David has kind of laid

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them out here but the next one is is I don't I can't forgive others and I can't forgive

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myself.

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Yeah.

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That's a miserable way to live but we see it and and I've been there too you know I've

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been in situations where it's hopeless that's it that's a way to that's a really good way

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to describe that hopeless fillings of despair no faith right.

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And then finally and I think this is the one that we all strive for and that's it's easy

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for me to forgive others and it's easy easy for me to appropriately forgive myself.

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An easy may not be the right word.

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No but but for the lack of a better word and that's why you're willing and that's why

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I use the word appropriate to yeah I mean you know for ourselves you know simple yeah

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I'm willing I can this is something that I can accomplish is a forgiveness of others

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and a forgiveness of myself but I think it's important that for me I throw in that descriptor

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of being an appropriate forgiveness of myself because I think a lot of times some of us

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I've been guilty of this really guilty of this where you know I can almost become past

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feeling yeah in certain things I really can and it's almost embarrassing to say that but

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it's true you know and for all of us and it and it and that's been a way that we become

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desensitized yeah and that past feeling us kind of was the undertow of my life for you

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know in a lot of our lives so you know all of our lives in different areas to a large

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degree yeah we become desensitized because of repetition of sin yeah yeah and we totally

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rationalize well or we blame or we have excluded ourselves the right to having the spirit with

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us you know when we have done things that do not allow the spirit of true of our heavenly

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father to be with us then then we can begin to you know a lot of times we think of when

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the spirits not with me then I can then I jump into them I'm a rose or a or a you know

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a feeling of despair or despondency but that's not that's not the only way that we can respond

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to that sometimes we can respond to a lack of spirit in our life with bravado with arrogance

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with you know feelings of I'm better than or you know things of that nature as well if

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I don't have the spirit how can I help but not sin that's right so if he wants me not

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to sin he better give me his spirit that's what's wrong here yeah crazy yes I had a friend

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who was excommunicated from the church and he'd been out of the church for several years

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lost his membership and and I'm trying to be a missionary and I love him to death we're

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close friends and and I after playing racquetball together one day we're talking and I'm saying

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you know what's it gonna take what is it gonna take out and how long is it gonna take before

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we get you back into the church and he I'll never forget this he said to me David you

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don't get it when they took my membership away from the church and I lost the gift of

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the Holy Ghost he said it was like somebody put me in a dark room and turned out the lights

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and I can't find the switch I remember thinking not only was it very sad but as I thought about

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a driving home later I thought well that's pathetic yeah that is really pathetic now

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I again I'm not condemning yeah I'm not condemning because I love him but but I thought wow there

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at some point you have to take some responsibility for that and find the switch and it may be

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you know may not receive full light or there I mean there's always like what we keep talking

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about there's always a payoff for people's attitudes and feelings and perspectives right

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yeah there is I remember when I was when I went through that process and I was put in

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that proverbial dark room as your friend just described it and I remember feeling like there's

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got to be a light switch you know and just to go along with your but but you know but

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and I'm gonna find it or or God's help that eventually help and find it and that eventually

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became my attitude it wasn't maybe right out of the yeah that's not true I gotta give myself

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more credit on that because it as it was actually my my intent right out of the gate was to

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find that light I felt it but you know here's what here's the interesting thing about that

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that observation from your friend the Holy Ghost had left a long time ago right it was

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it had been I remember thinking that it had been gone for quite some time so there wasn't

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an event that took place that night that morning that day whatever in the stake center and

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that membership counsel that said okay Holy Ghost the door's locked you got to go out now

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the Holy Ghost hadn't been present for a very long time not on a constant basis not not

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as the gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed upon us would do would do and so I remember

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feeling that those feelings too when I was in that place but it if if we can just begin

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to put aside our own pride feelings that come up you know and from our pride or from fear

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or from just natural phenomenon that takes place as being part of a culture sometimes

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we get these feelings of guilt and shame that pop up yeah and when that guilt and shame

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pops up that can really move us from you know we kind of laid out four different linear

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you know if you will categories classification let's use it that way you know but we can

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move depending on our our spiritual condition and I love it to talk about it that way you

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know in the big book about alcoholics not a mess I can't remember exactly the page but

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it's in the fifth chapter I know that as we go through these processes and it's not untrue

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there's the same kind of truth there that as we begin to clean house and invite God into

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our lives and you know make things right which includes forgiveness which includes repentance

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for us and all of those other things that as we begin to do this though then we begin

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to have the spirit come into our lives and as those things come in then it's easier for

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us to understand the differences between guilt and shame and where those things are guiding

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us and we understand too that that guilt and shame can be a product or a byproduct if you

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will of our fear and pride yeah okay so the first again the first classification Scott

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which we've spent I think the last two podcasts on yeah is to help us to be able to forgive

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others right right we and there are many who are not able to forgive give themselves and

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I want to spend more time on that so let's talk about that in regards to how can we be

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able to more readily forgive ourselves and you've hit on I think one of the key elements

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of that is identifying the difference between guilt and shame guilt starts with G and that's

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of God Scott guilt gets a bad rap guilt is of God I never forget reading a book that

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had a profound effect on me called the gift of pain it was a book about I'm sorry I can't

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remember the author but it was a book about the last leprosy colony in the in the mainland

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of the United States I think we still have a leprosy colony in the United States but

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it's in Hawaii did you know that I did not and the last one in the mainland of the United

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States was in Louisiana and this was the doctor director of that tip of that leprosy colony

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and I didn't know that leprosy was a nerve disease a nerve disorder where the nerves

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are actually eaten damaged or or damaged so badly destroyed that they feel no pain and

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as a result of feeling no pain they are it's kind of like being your whole body being

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numbed Scott like after you go to the dentist and your mouse numb and what do you do when

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you're a kid chew your tongue you chew your tongue and what happens after it doesn't just

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happen when you're a kid that happened to me a couple weeks ago and so you come out

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of it right and you have this unbelievable pain or sores or damage that you've caused

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well leprosy works something like that that where people don't feel that their feet they

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they develop these sores these putrid sores on their body because they can't feel the

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pain their nerves don't work they don't feel the pressure they don't feel the pain as a

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result they get these blisters because they're not their body is not reacting their body

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is not balancing it out as their themselves out because of the pressure or pain that they're

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supposed to feel but they don't and that's what that's how these sores and all that takes

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place and eventually through infection or other things it will destroy them so he talked

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about the gift we call pain pain is a gift I also remember a story I read in readers

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digest many years ago about these two boys I can't remember if they were twins or not

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but but brothers possibly twins who were born and I can't remember the condition where their

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nerves were damaged and they felt no pain and the mother was telling us this horrendous

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story of how difficult it was to raise these two sons who didn't live very long because

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they would run out in front of they felt no pain they had no fear she she caught them

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one day jumping off the house with their legs broken fractured and they were still jumping

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off the house and they just became completely handicapped and and I mean that that's an

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example of what we take for granted pain guilt causes us pain spiritual pain I believe it's

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a gift from God Scott it's it's of God it helps us to recognize when we have sinned

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it's like touching a stove you immediately react from God given guilt and what a blessing

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that we do and we don't that was another thing I remember that is the burns that these boys

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had putting their hand on the stove and thinking it was cool watching their you know smelling

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their skin burned their flesh burned anyway awful and so guilt is such a blessing shame

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on the other hand is is evil it's it's I think it's interesting how the word ashamed is you

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almost always a negative in the scriptures they were ashamed shame is of Satan it is

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self-centered it it is it creates all kinds of faults perspective of who we are it's definitely

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shows a lack of faith in Jesus Christ and his atonement it totally causes us to look

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inward we seek sometimes to hide it guilt on the other hand is outward it's forthcoming

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it's confessing it's acknowledging that's what guilt is guilt out in the open shame

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is hidden in a closet somewhere in our heart and we harbor it I just think it's really

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important for all of us to understand the difference between the two and to just really

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recognize that that guilt is such a blessing and it's it's really focused on Jesus Christ

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in his atonement it's it's the understanding that we have sinned while shame on the other

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hand is something that we seek to hide and Satan is a part of that and he tries to through

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shame this is really the problem with shames God he wants us to I he wants our identity

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to become what our sins are yeah right so it focuses more on our on our character than

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it does our behavior guilt focuses more on our behavior and that I have sinned shame

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on the other hand we start to think if we have a pornography addiction that I'm a that

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just who I am I'm a pervert and all of a sudden we begin to identify our character with the

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nature of our sin that is totally evil and and wrong that we do that and that's what

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shame causes us to do yeah the book you referenced the gift of pain is written by a Philip Yancy

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and a Dr. Paul brand so I'd recommend Paul Dr. Paul brand was the director that our amazing

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book readers maybe take a look at I just looked it up and it's available on Amazon and many

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other places well getting back to guilt and shame you know you you you make some really

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important and poignant points around the concepts of guilt and shame and again in not just in

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the church but in recovery and in in life and in in so many areas you know in our own circles

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of influence of our own cultures this guilt and shame thing has really been a problem

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since the beginning of time right I mean even in the even in the Garden of Eden I hid myself

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hide yeah Satan commands them exactly it because you're naked hide because God can see everything

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that's wrong with you you should hide yeah right guilt is you know what I ate the fruit

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and because I ate the fruit there's going to be a price to pay but you know and I'm

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going to have to to go through some process here but there's a but there's a plan in place

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for this and that plan ultimately will allow me to not just put this behind me but to eventually

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receive exaltation and so you know that's the guilt and that's the shame a lot of times

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I've heard it said in recovery and in other places recovery doesn't just have the corner

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on all these really cool sayings it's just where I spend a lot of time right but the

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a lot of times in recovery when we talk about guilt and shame we differentiate them by

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realizing that guilt means I made a mistake as you mentioned yeah I just made a mistake

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right and because of the and that's a gift or sinned which is a mistake right and so

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those that that sin that mistake that guilt that I feel because of that is a gift to me

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because it helps me keep my ship on course right we're shame so guilt means I made a

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mistake shame as you mentioned comes from the enemy comes from Satan he wants us to

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believe in shame he wants us to you know we talk about I remember thinking in hearing

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this even shame on you you know for doing something shame on you it's part of our culture

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you know and it goes all the way back to public flogging sin and even back to the law of Moses

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you know it felt like there is some shame involved there maybe with the the stoning

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you know in front of everybody and various things but when it comes to shame that is

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Satan inspiring us to believe that I am a mistake yeah oh I love that guilt is I made

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a mistake shame is I am a mistake and that's why we try to hide it so much you know just

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again guilt is from God and it is quickly should be quickly replaced with gratitude

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for the atonement of Jesus Christ shame on the other hand shame is of Satan and it fills

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us with selfish self-centered thoughts and feelings yeah graded guilt turns us to God

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yeah and shame turns us inward to ourselves I think a lot of times when we think of selfishness

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and inwardness and you know even to the extreme of narcissism that we think of things that

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would produce positive outcome you know but but you know a lot of times selfishness can

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also produce negative outcome and this is what we're talking about here and again there's

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a payoff yeah there's a payoff to this right so important for me for you all of us to really

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consider what that may be anyway to forgive ourselves we have to be able to identify the

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difference Scott between guilt and shame because those who feel true guilt as a gift

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will be able to work out their repentance but for those who feel shame they don't work

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out their repentance and they never do feel free you know and they're not able unless

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they brainwash themselves which isn't really forgiving themselves at all right they're

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never free from from the feeling that they'll never they're never going to to be good enough

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right in a proper response to guilt will put us in that contrite spirit mode which is the

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alignment of our will with heavenly fathers that's a they the correct response to guilt

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will do that for us there is no the only correct response to shame is to put it aside to eradicate

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it from our lives the only way we can eradicate shame from our lives is to focus on our connection

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with the savior yeah good correct I love the talk given by elder Jeffrey R. Holland

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a couple years ago back in 2009 I think it was January 2009 BYU speeches BYU devotional

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called remember lots wife I really recommend that to all of us to to read or reread it's

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so so great here about you know lot the story of lots wife and fleeing from Sodom and Gomorrah

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and her commanded not to look back or she'll turn to a pillar of salt and she does and

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there's interesting commentaries and interpretations about that but but it's also maybe a metaphor

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for some of us which elder Holland brilliantly as he always does makes a whole talk about

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it and just two paragraphs from that talks God that I think applies here elder Holland

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says when something is over and done with when it has been repented of as fully as it

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can be repented of when life has moved on as it should and a lot of other wonderfully

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good things have happened since then it is not right to go back over and over again and

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open up some ancient wound that the son of God himself died trying to heal when repentance

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is sincere when honest effort is being made to progress we are guilty of the greater sin

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if we keep remembering and choosing to recall and rebash someone with their earlier mistakes

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and that someone might be ourselves we can be so hard on ourselves often so much more

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than on others so I it's the metaphor of lots wife you why turn around and look back the

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somebody wrote in a book on this subject years ago that while you're driving don't keep your

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head you you spend too much time looking in the rearview mirror you're not going to be

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able to progress moving ahead you're going to it's going to be a big accident waiting

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to happen if you're trying to drive a car forward while you're looking in the rearview

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mirror well it's not just that lots wife looked back and I think we need to always remember

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this too because it's it can be important for us sometimes to remember sometimes our

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memory of those guilt situations you know we do need to remember those those memories

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can also be a gift but it's the fact that she looked back longingly yeah she looked back

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and wanted that's what many commentaries believe either right yeah someday I want to know more

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about that you know yeah her heart motivation what really happened there yeah elder Richardson

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said this years ago forgiving oneself of a sin does not excuse does not mean excusing

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oneself for sinning when we forgive a sin we neither say it is okay nor that payment

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will not be required so do you get that when we forgive a sin including ourselves we neither

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say it's okay nor the payment will not be required in other words somebody had to pay

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for it right and it's immediately we should think our thoughts should go to Jesus Christ

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I think one of the biggest problems Scott of not being able to forgive ourselves and and

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or not being able to forgive others is because we don't understand the atonement of Jesus

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Christ and that he paid the punishment he paid the penalty he met the demands of justice

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and some of us continue to try to beat ourselves up we continue to try to make the payment

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or we we demand the payment from others we're going to make them pay and so we disdain them

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we try to we try to sabotage them or sabotage our relationship we're going to cause them

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pain for what they did because we think that's the way redemption or forgiveness should work

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it's the way we balance the scale that's that's a mockery of the atonement of Jesus Christ

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God it's a mockery of the atonement of Jesus Christ to think that I can make full payment

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or that I demand payment from anyone else who has sinned against me or me make payment

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for any sin that I've committed elder Richardson goes on and says rather forgiveness allows

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us to turn both the final judgment of guilt and the full payment of debt over to the Lord

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Jesus Christ the Lord has said leave judgment alone with me for it is mine and I will repay

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that's the atonement of Jesus Christ and so I again think that one of the in all of those

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four classifications if we really went down below the surface the key to each of those

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even more than than certain character trades is what is their understanding of the atonement

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of Jesus Christ because understanding the atonement of Jesus Christ which the which is the major

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foundation of repentance itself should just naturally will naturally help us to forgive

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give ourselves and forgive others by not by not holding payment or punishment over our

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heads it's it's isn't it we're like spiritual masochists that we we keep wanting to just

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beat ourselves up over and over and over again for sins that we've committed or mistakes

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that we've made I just elder Holland again in that same talk remembering lots wife he

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says that when when honest effort is being made to progress we are guilty of the greater

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sin if we keep remembering and recalling and rebashing someone which may be even ourselves

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that's a greater sin Scott we keep we because we just keep hurting others which again may

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be ourselves and if we're hurting ourselves if we're not forgiving ourselves Scott we

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are hurting others because we're not the person that we could be or that we should be or we

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are denying the full miracle and blessings of the atonement of Jesus Christ in our life

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which affects everyone who knows us that's important with everything that we do here

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you know weeks ago probably maybe even months ago we said we can't sin in a bubble because

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even because even our sin you know even you know and I think we talked about it you know

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as I had to do with pornography addiction maybe or something like that but even though

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people don't know or even though these things are within us or private or whatever they're

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really not because they do affect others that were around they affect our attitudes they

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affect the way that we interact they affect the way that we behave and so on and so yeah

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this is an extremely important part of it as well and I think even the misunderstanding

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or the lack of understanding of the atonement of Jesus Christ is a factor in not forgiving

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ourselves and I think it goes back to our earlier podcast one of our first podcast it's

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a lack of understanding or a misunderstanding Scott of the doctrine of the fall of Adam

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and Eve who do we think that we are what what do we think about our whole purpose and the

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plan of redemption and we sin and we I mean Scott those was all part of the plan that

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we would sin there's no surprises to God he knew that we would sin I know God cannot justify

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sin he cannot look upon it with the least degree of allowance I get that but he knew

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that we would he's not shocked he's not wringing his hands he's not throwing his head back

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and his hand to his forehead saying oh no you didn't yeah there's there's nothing about

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sin that has surprised him or that has disdained that he looks upon an individual as maybe

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someone who has sinned right but he still looks upon them knowing their past their present

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and their future and sees them as his child and his love is always there for them so I

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I think that part of the problem of not forgiving ourselves is a lack of understanding or misunderstanding

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of the of the fall of Adam and Eve I think another reason people don't forgive themselves

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or it's hard to forgive ourselves Scott is a lack of faith which we we discussed in a

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podcast the lack of faith in the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ people believe

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they have faith in Jesus Christ and they may believe that in which category is this that

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he forgives everybody else that the atonement of Jesus Christ is there for everybody else

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but it's not there for me yeah that's the first category we talked about you know that

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I can forgive others because I know God does forgive them but he doesn't forgive me and

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I think it it actually can be more difficult Scott I think for us to forgive others than

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to forgive ourselves when and because we know what we were thinking when we sinned and we

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know how accountable we are or not we we know what we did wrong and we know why we did it

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we we sometimes don't know that or make that judgment about others we know we knew better

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and we want to beat ourselves up in order just that we won't do it again well and there's

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there's a part of that beat ourselves up to that kind of gives us some satisfaction I

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think towards this flogging ourselves exactly cutting spiritually punishment cutting ourselves

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right right right right because you know in our culture and I think in most cultures you

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know for the the the consequence for sin or most a lot of misgivings has been some sort

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of physical punishment or punishment at just punishment period in the past and you know

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and there is a when we talked about what sin is not you know we know that there are consequences

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that come because of our actions and that those consequences can come as a very negative

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experience in our lives you know for example you know we had last week talked about Cameron

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and and Chris Williams Williams who he who Cameron had you know unintentionally but had

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nonetheless perpetrated a grave problem for this family he had driven drunk and several

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lives were lost because of that but you know we we he knows the things that he's gone through

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and and he believes and and maybe a lot of us would believe and I'm not saying he believes

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this because I have knowledge of this but I'm just you know kind of wondering if you know

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this is sometimes where we go that that maybe I need extra if you knew how bad I think that's

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one of the secrets that we have that we think when we meet other people that people when

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people love us and people who are the type that would be more likely more less likely

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to forgive themselves might be in this category where if you only knew me yeah if you only

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knew this about me what I don't want you to know and Deb always says that in our institute

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class one of the questions that sometimes we need to overcome is is what I don't want

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you to know about me is this and you know and and and it's so kind of private self-awarenesses

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or self-esteem says erroneous as they may be that keep us I kind of think in that category

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where you know I just feel like I need to get beat up I feel like I need to be punished

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for it and there's never enough punishment yeah in that sad Scott yeah but it's true

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it is true we've all we've all experienced that and it's it's so dangerous and sad to

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think how sin opens us up to Satan who wants us to identify again ourselves with our with

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our sin and as soon as he does that Scott he's really got us yeah we need to know who we

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are and whose we are I read it I read an interesting scripture I got to grab my Bible here I read

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another interesting scripture not long ago a few weeks ago in Isaiah 43 studying Isaiah and I was

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in chapter 43 I came across this verse it's the first verse in fact this is this is such a

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beautiful chapter chapter 43 Isaiah verse 1 but now thus saith the Lord that created the

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O Jacob and he that formed thee O Israel fear not for I have redeemed thee I have called thee by

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thy name and thou art mine wow I when I read that I really felt the spirit of that Scott

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and it really affected me for a long time it still affects me but you know Israel and Jacob wasn't

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there was nothing too righteous about them in the middle of Isaiah here where he's calling

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them to repentance I mean they're they're in bad shape and and they're sinning and in Isaiah has

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been the prophet to calm their repentance and he actually ends up becoming a martyr but through

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this prophet God is still reaching out continually to Jacob and Israel and telling them I have redeemed

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thee you just need to know who you are and especially that you're mine I think that is so

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so powerful even in your sins you are still mine and I I just hope that our listeners

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can begin fear not we need to eliminate the fear so much of our fears are based upon

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our lack of understanding of who we are and not knowing who's we are that we belong to him that

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we are his in fact I think fear Scott is a major reason why people have a hard time forgiving themselves

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one of the reasons fear comes into play is because they're afraid their lack of faith

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in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and in the enabling power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ

421
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:10,600
people are afraid that they're going to commit the sin again and again and again that's that's

422
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:17,000
part of the fear right and they have they have fear if they're not fully repented that

423
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:24,440
they're never going to be able to return to the presence of God so they lose hope they have fear

424
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:31,320
of moving on and they have fear of change they fear of what what will the change in my life

425
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:38,840
really look like I mean I fear change I don't know if I want to quit my sinning I don't know

426
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:44,680
if I want to really forgive myself and move on and they fear that they fear

427
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:55,880
that they fear if Satan can place fear into our hearts he can totally shut us down and keep us

428
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:02,520
not only from trying to repent but he can ultimately keep us from recognizing

429
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:09,960
repentance or forgiveness in our life and keep us from forgiving ourselves yeah you said something

430
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:16,200
about remembering you know it's important for us to remember so much remember who we are remember

431
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:23,400
whose we are remember who they are remember who's they are etc and you know we think and I've and

432
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:29,640
I've heard this it's easy for you to say remember remember is not easy for me to remember who I am

433
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,120
some people will say that's not easy for me well there's an anecdote for that and it's right in

434
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:40,440
the scripture you know and we get as an anecdote for that is actually a member of the godhead

435
00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:46,760
that helps us to remember who we are if we go to John 14 verses 26 through 27 this is an old

436
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:51,720
missionary scripture we're all probably very familiar with it but the comforter which is the

437
00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:57,000
holy ghost and just think of that name alone the comforter to bring me comforter whom the

438
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:03,320
father will send in my name he shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembers

439
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:11,560
yeah all things who you are who's you are probably top top among those things absolutely yeah and so

440
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:18,200
you know if we're if we're struggling with who we are if we're struggling with that remembering

441
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:23,320
who we are and I really do believe that if we do remember if we know who we are if we have those

442
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:29,320
rememberings uh alive and well on a constant basis in our lives I think that this process I'm not

443
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,680
saying it's going to be easy ever for anybody I mean this is a mortal process this is it does take

444
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:41,480
some effort it does take some work on our part but it's not impossible in fact it becomes increasingly

445
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:49,000
more possible in fact it can be done with grace and ease I would submit if we remember who we are

446
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:53,640
but in order for us to do that we must maintain a relationship that will allow the spirit of the

447
00:46:53,640 --> 00:47:04,200
holy ghost to be alive and well in our lives always I love that Scott so uh Scott I I have some

448
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:12,040
antidotes you use that term I have some antidotes uh for people for our listeners for you and me

449
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:25,080
our families to consider on things that they can do in order to forgive themselves okay so I've had

450
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:31,400
hundreds of students thank me for this list who have come back and if they're real if you really

451
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:38,440
put in the effort use the word effort I love president Nelson's uh exclamation mark statement

452
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:50,840
God loves effort it takes effort these are gifts but to receive these gifts takes effort

453
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:58,600
so I'm gonna I'm gonna list maybe five or six of of these and I maybe I'm gonna start with the first

454
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:08,360
one to know who and who's you are and don't forget it and allow the holy ghost to help you to always

455
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:19,320
remember it second humility humility which is the result of striving to live a righteous life Scott

456
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:28,120
humility helps us to be more dependent on Christ and his redeeming atonement than upon our own

457
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:37,560
efforts humility is a result of knowing that man can merit nothing of himself that's also part of

458
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:44,760
our identity our identity to know who we really are that we're humans to that we are meritless

459
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:53,320
we can merit nothing of ourselves to know that and to to depend upon the atonement of Jesus Christ

460
00:48:53,320 --> 00:49:03,560
that's true humility that's what humility is next searching the scriptures that takes great effort

461
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:12,040
with with the desire to understand the universal effects of the fall and the power of the infinite

462
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:21,560
atonement if if we could just really get into the words God the word of God and to understand

463
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:29,480
the truths of the doctrine of the fall of all mankind and the atonement of Jesus Christ

464
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:41,240
we would begin to see ourselves and others and our sins as they really are next is praying with

465
00:49:41,240 --> 00:49:50,120
all energy of heart to be filled with perfect love charity pure love of Christ which casteth

466
00:49:50,120 --> 00:50:00,040
out all fear and all other negative emotions that's that comes from moroni seven forty eight to

467
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:06,120
pray with all energy of heart for this love moroni exhorts us

468
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:16,600
anyway i i just think that's something that we've talked a lot about in our podcast and i hope

469
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:23,000
people continue to experiment with it and apply that in their life next is learning

470
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:31,640
of Jesus Christ as he invites us to do which includes his character his mercy and his grace

471
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:40,200
which will help us to be forgiven and to feel forgiven and then to forgive ourselves

472
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:48,200
and finally scott which i want to spend the rest of our time on the few minutes that we have left

473
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:59,960
finally knowing that when we feel the holy ghost in our life the atonement of christ is doing its

474
00:50:59,960 --> 00:51:11,640
work and we are being forgiven or we have been forgiven i i just love that quote from president

475
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:17,480
iring that when we feel the holy ghost we know the atonement is working in our life

476
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:27,160
i think scott ultimately to forgive ourselves it is quite simple not always easy but it's quite

477
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:35,320
simple when we know that god has forgiven us therefore the key to forgive ourselves is to know

478
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:43,800
that we are forgiven to know where we stand with god well in order to do that he's given us a list

479
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:51,640
of several examples you know of how to know that we're forgiven um maybe we can just look at a few

480
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:58,520
of these right dr and covenants scott if you want to let's let's read a few of these dr and covenants

481
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:05,960
section six dr and covenants section six revelation through the prophet joseph smith the

482
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,600
oliver caldery when a few days after oliver caldery had gone down to harmony and

483
00:52:11,720 --> 00:52:15,800
inquires of joseph smith what the lord would have him do and

484
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:23,880
and six twenty three scott please he says did not i speak peace under your mind concerning the

485
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:34,840
matter what greater witness can you have them from god i know people feel that from time to time

486
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:44,520
but satan can either mask it or we don't dwell on it enough we're not mindful enough to identify it

487
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:53,880
and to allow it to dwell with us long enough and we get too too much caught up in all the

488
00:52:55,320 --> 00:53:03,400
distractions of the world and the noise of the world that we don't identify the peace which

489
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:09,720
the holy ghost will bring into our life as we seek to repent and there is no greater witness

490
00:53:09,720 --> 00:53:20,680
than peace when it comes to repenting and forgiving so here's another one scott let's let's go to

491
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:29,880
second nifa four thirty and thirty one you know this is after nifa has declared ol wretched man

492
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:36,040
that i am and he's obviously in the state of repentance in this chapter ol wretched man that

493
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:41,320
i am and yet i know in whom i've trusted listen to what he says in verses thirty and thirty one

494
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:48,200
nifa he says rejoice oh my heart and cry unto the lord and say oh lord i will praise thee forever

495
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:56,120
yay my soul will rejoice in thee my god and the rock of my salvation oh lord wilt thou redeem my

496
00:53:56,120 --> 00:54:04,200
soul wilt thou deliver me from the hands of mine enemies wilt thou make me that i may shake at the

497
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:10,680
appearance of sin so i think there's a couple of things in this what what do you see scott

498
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:16,680
but the very last one wilt thou make me that i may shake at the appearance of sin

499
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:25,080
man we should all pray for that huh yeah no kidding we should all pray for that but how do we know

500
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:33,320
how did nifa know that he was forgiven it wasn't necessarily that he did shake at the appearance

501
00:54:33,320 --> 00:54:41,160
of sin right yeah it's his attitude that he wanted to shake at the appearance of sin

502
00:54:41,720 --> 00:54:48,920
he was willing to pray for that he sought that that was his desire so he he identifies several

503
00:54:48,920 --> 00:54:57,000
desires in there this desire that he has to rejoice he's rejoicing to his god he is filled with

504
00:54:57,000 --> 00:55:08,200
gratitude and with the desire not to sin anymore these are all evidences it's it's so evident as you

505
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:14,920
read his words and in fact that whole chapter as you go through it that he has repented and that he

506
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:22,360
has been forgiven and and another there's a whole group of people that experience a similar feeling

507
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:29,560
in moseya chapter four verses two and three after king benjamin has delivered his amazing discourse

508
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:39,400
on the atonement of jesus christ in uh in moseya chapter three then we have this whole group of

509
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:45,720
people who pitched their tents around the temple and king benjamin had built the tower and and

510
00:55:45,720 --> 00:55:51,480
after this discourse we find them falling to the ground and and try to let's let's listen carefully

511
00:55:51,480 --> 00:56:00,040
to this and try to feel what they're feeling the two and three and they had re and they had viewed

512
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:05,240
themselves in their own carnal state even less than the dust of the earth all right so scott they

513
00:56:05,240 --> 00:56:10,920
understood the fall yeah and they and they all cried aloud with one voice saying oh have mercy

514
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:16,360
and apply the atoning blood of christ that we may receive forgiveness of our sins and our hearts

515
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:23,240
may be purified for we believe in jesus christ the son of god who created heaven and earth and all

516
00:56:23,240 --> 00:56:29,400
things who shall come down among the children of man so what are they feeling an appreciation a

517
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:35,320
love a connection to jesus christ because of his atoning blood yeah yeah yeah and and expressing

518
00:56:36,200 --> 00:56:41,880
their their belief their hope their faith yeah right they're filled with this the spirit the

519
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:48,280
this is the holy ghost that's causing these feelings in them okay next verse and it came to pass

520
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,680
that after they had spoken these words the spirit of the lord came upon them and they were filled

521
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:59,880
with joy having received a remission of their sins and having peace of conscience because of the

522
00:56:59,880 --> 00:57:06,680
exceeding faith which they had in jesus christ who should come according to the words which king

523
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:12,760
benjamin had spoken unto them had a great word yeah yeah how did they know they were forgiven

524
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:23,480
what was there what was the emotion joy they were filled with joy and peace and no doubt

525
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:36,040
peace peace of conscience peace of conscience joy and peace and why because of their exceeding faith

526
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:42,200
in jesus christ yeah well how about alma chapter 13 where i have a whole list of these but we'll

527
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:52,360
just do one more scott alma chapter 13 verses 11 and 12 therefore they are called after this holy

528
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:56,760
order and were sanctified and their garments were washed white through the blood of the lamb

529
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:03,000
now they after being sanctified by the holy ghost having their garments made white with

530
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:11,400
pure and spotless before god could not look upon sin save it were with adorance and there were many

531
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:17,480
exceedingly great many who were made pure and entered into the rest of the lord their god

532
00:58:17,480 --> 00:58:24,360
what uh i don't know what word would you use or stand out to you in that verse god

533
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,800
are evidence of their forgiveness well that their their garments had been washed through

534
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:34,040
the blood of the lamb so there's there's some faith there too right there's yeah there's some

535
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:40,920
deep there's some deep faith in order for them to understand that um you know after being sanctified

536
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:45,400
by the holy ghost having their garments made white being pure and spotless before god they

537
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:51,560
could not look upon sin save it were with adorance and so they they couldn't even look they couldn't

538
00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:57,720
even look at it without you know i would say without i without saying get sick to my stomach

539
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:05,720
yeah you know and and maybe that even includes scott their past yeah their past sins yeah i'm

540
00:59:05,720 --> 00:59:10,440
sure it does right and that when we talk to the whole podcast on what it means to forsake yep

541
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:18,200
yep to forsake our sins which means we don't even think about them and the reason we don't think

542
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:24,440
about them is because they kind of make us sick think about them yeah i i scott i can remember

543
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:32,360
all my sins yeah i can remember all my sins but it's not with any joy no it's it i remember my

544
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:41,160
sins and i feel i feel great regret and abhorrence and i actually think scott so we we've used the

545
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:46,840
word joy and we've used the word peace but i actually feel i think one of the signs of repentance

546
00:59:46,840 --> 00:59:55,080
is that i feel abhorrence and i feel great regret for my sins i think that's evidence yeah that we

547
00:59:55,080 --> 01:00:03,560
have been forgiven of our sins not just the joy and peace knowing that christ has redeemed us saved

548
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:09,800
us and forgiven us of sin well i hope i hope that this will be helpful to those who are

549
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:17,560
seeking to know where they stand and i know that i testify my experience i've seen this over and

550
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:22,360
over again thinking about several instances of the missionary training center when i was

551
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:29,240
there trying to help missionaries to repent and uh knowing that once they came to know

552
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:37,000
and sweet testimonies and some letters i received from missionaries once they came to know

553
01:00:37,640 --> 01:00:47,400
where they stood with god they quickly were able to forgive themselves and move on and become and

554
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:54,680
become great instruments in the hands of god and i that would be my prayer for me and for you and for

555
01:00:54,680 --> 01:01:00,680
all of us folks we hope you've felt the spirit we hope that you have been able to ingest some of the

556
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:08,760
wonderful beautiful truths that we talk about we testify of but most importantly and above all

557
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:15,880
things we hope that this gives us an opportunity and a desire through our gratitude to come unto

558
01:01:15,880 --> 01:01:21,880
him more fully as we feel the power of his atonement at work in our lives thanks for being with us

559
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:26,280
today remember that you have been redeemed through his blood and we look forward to being with you

560
01:01:26,280 --> 01:01:48,680
again next week