Hey there everybody and welcome out to another episode of Redeemed Through His Blood.
Scott Durfee here, joined as always by Dave Durfee.
What's up Dave?
Good to be with you Scott.
Sweet to be here, sweet to be alive, life is hard, seems like so many struggles and difficulties
and challenges and problems and it's interesting that we got a I think it's a really significant
communication email from someone.
Scott, maybe you can set that up just maybe give generally some background to the email
just kind of generally without names and titles or offices or anything that's mentioned
in there.
Let's just kind of generally talk about it for a minute.
Well, so we got an email this week, in fact I just got it today this morning at 10.52
a.m. to be exact.
But and it was good to get this you know and again gang we...
That's not the first one we've got.
No, no, no, yeah and I was just going to say them.
But this one seems kind of urgent.
Can we invite you as things come up if you have questions or things like that please
send them to us and we'll do what we can to either respond to them via email or talk about
them here on the podcast.
If we do that we'll protect identity and anonymity for sure.
This is a loving father and this loving father has a wonderful young man in his life, his
son and his son has struggled and his son has struggled with some morality kind of issues
and this the other person, a young lady happens to be somebody that they know and kind of
in the same area, community if you will.
And anyway, the frustration or this and I don't really I got to be careful about that
because I don't know that frustration was really what was being trying to be communicated
here although there was some frustration in the tone of it for sure.
Well, it is frustrating.
Yeah, it definitely whatever you have a wayward child.
We know that there's frustration there.
You have emotions and feelings of failure and anxiety and some fear, fear, failure,
frustration, the three F's and it's it's yeah, I know what that feels like.
Yeah, I guess I do too, honestly.
I'm just going to read one, maybe edit it as I read it, but one paragraph, maybe two,
and I think that'll kind of give us a synopsis of what we need to talk about.
But this brother says the impression I've had throughout all of this ordeal is to help
him.
That's the son better understand the Savior and his atoning sacrifice.
I don't know what in particular to share with him, but we read from the Book of Mormon
and from the New Testament often.
Our state president, so this son is going through kind of the repentance process, I
guess, you know, and that could be argued, I guess, because I, you know, repentant is
a way of being in.
It seems like based on what this father's telling us in this email that he may not have
that repentant of a heart, but he goes on.
Our state president has also given him many assignments, but every and everyone just says
he's a good kid and he'll figure things out.
But he's really not figuring it out.
And before he can move forward, he needs to awake to the reality of his awful situation.
Then he asks a question, do you have any counsel as to how to help wake him up?
I sit here like the father of the prodigal son waiting and watching.
And sometimes I lose my patience and sometimes I get upset and it's easy to love other children.
But when it's my own child, I have totally hit rock bottom myself.
I've had a couple of priesthood blessings and received good counsel there, but I wondered
if you had any advice.
Well it's, I mean, you know, my heart goes out to that father and that no doubt behind
that good father, there is a weeping wife and mother.
No doubt.
And my heart really goes out to them.
And I'm telling you, Scott, from personal experience, it is so interesting to me.
How, when you have a wayward child, how Satan will use the waywardness of that child to
put parents in kind of a spiral downward, which I don't think is pleasing to the Lord.
I understand it.
I've experienced it.
But there is no reason why any parent cannot feel, continue to feel, always feel joy and
peace.
I've learned, Scott, that you can have joy and sorrow.
Yeah.
It's okay to be sad.
That's okay.
But you better not lose your joy.
And it's okay to be frustrated.
That's okay.
But you better not lose your peace because what you're saying, if you, if you lose your
peace and spirit and those are fruits of the spirit, which when I don't have joy and peace,
I know I've lost the spirit either temporarily or because of thoughts or negativity or sometimes
even because of sin in my life or because of the sins of my children or whatever.
And you don't have joy and peace, what does that say about my ability to respond to the
spirit?
We know the president Nelson has told us we should have joy in every circumstance.
I've been thinking a lot about Adam and Eve.
Adam and Eve, leave the Garden of Eden.
Think about that.
They've communed with God.
I know that they remembered that, those experiences.
Their mind was not veiled by that.
They couldn't remember the pre-moral existence, but they remembered the garden and they remembered
walking and talking with God and they, they go into this dreary world, right?
Celestial world, fallen world.
And not long after they have children and their children are old enough, their children
are killing one another.
Think about that as a parent.
You know, who's gone, had to go through that.
And well, there have been some and Adam and Eve, right?
I mean, the quality of their parenthood probably surpassed by none.
And they have a cane who kills their able, right?
Two brothers who hate each other so much.
Satan has had so much influence in that.
Anyway, I've been thinking a lot about Adam and Eve lately.
I have problems in my own family.
I have a son who's been in prison.
You know, our family's certainly not, not perfect without our problems and no family
is, but you can still have and must continue to seek joy and peace.
And what blocks us from having that Scott is fear and pride.
And pride.
Yeah.
I'm telling you, there's a whole chapter in Elder Anderson's book on fear and pride
and every parent ought to read it and read it well because I think it, we as a, as a father,
when I have a wayward son, then I'm praying, Oh God, please change my son.
Please change my son.
There's no bad prayers.
And that's certainly a sincere, worthy prayer.
But once I was praying that and the spirit chastised me.
Get praying for your wayward son and start praying for you.
And I knew what that meant that the waywardness of my son was causing me to lose the spirit
of the Lord because I had lost joy and peace in my life and maybe even some of the pure
love of Christ in my life charity and maybe, maybe even a little hope and maybe even a
little, I mean, it really affects you spiritually.
I understand that.
But a father at some point and a mother should pray for them that they can be able to through
the atonement of Jesus Christ continue to have joy.
I mean, all of the prophets, all parents who've had wayward children have no doubt wept because
God himself wept because he said they are my creation.
They are, they are, and they don't, they hate each other, right?
Even God weeps.
But God hasn't lost joy, hasn't lost peace, hasn't lost purpose.
And we should, we should, when we get in those states, emotional states in our life, I think
largely because of fear and pride and how easily Satan can use those two emotions against
us, fear, insecurity, pride, he can rob us of that peace and that joy.
And when he does and we become agitated and we become insecure and we become over reactive
and we become angry and we become, then we lose power and we lose, we're not in the best
position to really help that child when we're in that state.
So I think that's, that's the first thing I would say.
And the second thing I would say is I have always loved the example we have in the Book
of Mormon of how Alma uses doctrine to teach us, here was wayward son fornicating on his
mission, sent home.
Can you imagine, can you imagine the sense of maybe fear or pride that Alma may have
felt as being the high priest of the church, the prophet and his son sent home and he's
thinking, wow, I wonder what people are thinking about that.
That doesn't, you know, I mean, think of the fears and pride that no doubt he would have
felt because we're all fallen.
But he didn't allow that to settle in on his heart and take control of his behaviors or
his response to his son.
And so what does he do?
Well he just teaches his son doctrine.
And this is one of the greatest examples of all the scriptures, which is evidence of
President Packer's statement.
True doctrine, understood, changes behavior, better than a discussion of behavior changes
behavior.
So then my counsel would be to any parent who's going through this, what is your focus?
Is your focus the son's behavior?
What's your focus?
You know, just for a minute.
I'm not talking about the son.
What is your focus?
And if your focus is the behavior, that's not going to be helpful.
I mean, you can't ignore the behavior, need to be aware of the behavior, need to do everything
you can to stop the behavior, especially when it's damaging himself or others.
However, if you want to really change someone, it's not going to be a discussion of behavior.
It's going to be a discussion of doctrine.
And it sounds like this dad's trying to do that, and it sounds like this son's willing
to read scriptures with him, which I, that's amazing.
That's optimistic.
And so that's another point.
Focus on doctrine, not on the behavior.
Third thing, how do you really see your son?
You know, this, this email says, everybody says he's a good kid.
Well, what do you think about your kid?
What do you think about your son?
The real, the real point here, Scott, is to pray for the gift, to see your son, the way
God sees your son.
Right.
Can I, can I add a few things to that?
So, and I agree with all of that.
That's all true doctrine, true or words have never been spoken, then everything that you
just spoke, Dave, Dave, there's, there's another component to it, you know, and as fathers,
you and I have been here too.
We're always looking for an action item.
Give me the button to push, give me the thing to do, give me the, give me the, step by step.
Yeah.
Give me the assignment, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
You know, and you talk about how are we, what are we putting our focus on?
Are we focusing on ourselves?
Are we focusing on changing his behavior, our behavior, whatever?
And it goes deeper than behavior.
You know, this is really about not what we're doing.
It's about who we're being.
You know, and in the very beginning stages of this podcast, you and I discuss the importance
of understanding who we are and whose we are.
And there's a lot of presupposition here that, you know, this young man has that testimony
that this young, you know, he's a good kid.
He, you know, that was said about me.
I'm a little sensitive to this kind of stuff, you know, I'm 59 years old and I go back to
when I was a teenager.
And you were living a lie.
Exactly.
And that's where I'm coming from.
Because because, you know, for example, there was a time I was sitting in a, I was told,
I told you about this the other day, but I was sitting in a conference.
It was, I was 16 or 17 years old.
I was living a life that included things that we're talking about here.
I wasn't living a virtuous life.
I was living a lie.
I was on the stake High Council Youth Advisory Committee or whatever, you know, and all of
those other things.
Well, we had a general authority.
Don't remember who it was.
Came and he spoke to us.
I was the one that was being asked to speak in conferences, you know, say prayers, everything.
You know, I was that good kid.
Well, we had this general authority come speak to us and he was talking about the law of
chastity.
I was sitting halfway back in the American Fork Steak Center, American Fork, Utah.
I was sitting halfway back in the congregation early morning, fireside, and I just started
feeling so guilty and so crappy about myself that I got him walked out.
And as I did that, you know, he embarrassed me in front of everybody.
He says, Hey, where are you going?
This stuff about kind of pricking at you or whatever.
And I must have turned a million shades of red and all of that.
I felt like I was on fire.
I'm filling it again now.
I'm starting to get anxious as I felt filled now.
But anyway, do you remember that general authority?
I wish I did.
No, I wish you didn't.
I'm glad you don't.
Because of him, buddy, you shouldn't have done that.
Right?
Yeah, exactly.
So, so anyway, I leave and I just said, No, I got a sick stomach.
I left.
Well, you know, subsequent to that, all the stake leaders and everybody, they were so
concerned.
Oh, Scott, we don't want him worried.
We don't want him offended.
We, you know, in fact, I had more than one tell me, don't worry.
We told him that you're one of the good ones.
And all this time I'm thinking, Yeah, no, I'm not.
You know, you knew something.
Yeah.
No one else knew about you.
Well, the spirit did.
That's for sure.
Right.
But the point is, is, you know, for me, in those days, it was so important for me, you
know, it sounds like I was kind of brought up the same way this young man was.
And there's no criticism on anybody, not my parents, not his parents or Adam or Eve or
anybody or Lehigh or anybody or God who or God who lost the third of his, right.
But my testimony was based on what everybody else was thinking.
You know, I mean, I had a testimony.
Don't get me wrong.
I don't ever remember a time when I doubted the validity of the truthfulness of the gospel,
the restoration, all of it.
I don't ever remember a time and I've never denied it.
But it wasn't who I was being who it's the things that I was doing, right.
And so those those doings were so important that I checked the box that I looked like this,
that I was that good kid that I.
And you know, and I was having those priesthood interviews with my dad and I was having those
priesthood interviews with the bishop and and everybody else.
And I knew exactly what to say, you know, and I especially knew what to say to make them
go quicker.
You know, if you answer the questions quickly and the right way, then you can be done with
it, you know, bow your head and say yes.
Exactly.
This young man.
What we're what we may be seeing here is just an outward expression of a lack that's much
deeper than, hey, you're you're making some mistakes.
And that lack is a connection to deity, a connection to his Heavenly Father, a realization
not just on pages on a book and not just saying what somebody wants him to hear, but a situation
where, yeah, I know that I'm supposed to say, yeah, I'm nothing blah, blah, blah, but a
real feeling of that and real, real word pictures to go with the kind of words kind of book
of what's going on.
And and if that's the case, then helping that young man fill the Savior's love first, helping
him know who he is first, all that other stuff's important, sure.
But we've got a triage and the triage we got to get to the to the base of the problem.
And does he really see himself as who he is who he really is.
Yeah, not just who he is.
Who's who's that's right.
He is.
And why it's important that he's been purchased in why it's important that he has been purchased.
You're right.
Not just that he's been purchased, but why do I need that?
What necessitates me being purchased and understand that his parents have been purchased
right and that we've all been purchased, right?
You know, it just it really depends, Scott, on on, you know, what is a parent's focus
when they have a wayward child.
And honestly, if you're if you're focused more on the badness of the child more than
you are focused on the goodness of Jesus Christ, you're going to have anger.
You're going to have you're not going to have peace.
You're not going to have joy.
You're going to lose spiritual gifts.
You have to focus always more on the goodness of Christ than the badness of the child.
Right.
It's just really critical for a parent or or anyone who has a loved one spouse or other.
You have to focus more on the goodness of Christ.
And I'm not talking about leniency or allowing indulgence.
I'm not talking about ignoring behaviors and sins that are damaging to your home to others
or to the child.
I'm not talking about that.
No, you shouldn't be lenient or you shouldn't be in doubt and indulging because that's not
charity.
We'll talk about that when we talk about forgiving others.
Indulgence is not charity.
It's not excusing their behaviors.
But if you focus more on their badness than you do on the goodness of Jesus Christ, you're
not going to be in a position of strength to really help that individual.
Yeah, you know, and the best way that we can help our kids get to know themselves is to
get to know him.
Help them get to know him.
Help them understand him.
You know, and we think, well, gosh, I've been doing that since this kid was a little boy
in family home evening and all these other things.
We don't know that, you know, we think we know our kids, we think we know everything
about them, but we don't know what's happening in a kid's life that, you know, may make that
distance feel huge when there really is no distance between ourselves and the Spirit
of our Heavenly Father.
Well, and I think really the key to help somebody know who they are, Scott, is again
for a parent or loved one to have a vision of who they are and who their child or their
loved one is.
And I think you can only get that through prayer and revelation.
And when I talk about about seeing them as they are, as God sees them, I'm not talking
about in the present, I'm not talking about as a as a prodigal.
I'm talking about their premortal existence.
How does God see a child?
How does he see a prodigal?
Does he see them as a prodigal?
Or has he completely forgotten what they were like in the premoral existence and how
valuable they were?
What about, does he see them as being celestial beings, glorified, becoming like him?
How does God see that child when a parent can get a glimpse, Scott?
Somewhat.
I know, I know that this, I'm not talking about manipulating a vision or spirit or anything
else here or trying to force it.
But when you just get a glimpse to see them the way God sees them from beginning to end,
oh man, that can take so much pressure off a relationship.
Specifically, that can take pressure off a parent-child relationship.
That's what I'm talking about.
I know it is.
Or spouse.
Yeah, true.
Or child worried about their parents.
I've had, I've had a lot of adult children come to me telling me about their, about their
parents.
Yeah.
But in all those relationships, it is totally changing and softening and redemptive, really,
to be able to see a loved one who is in trouble or troubled, to be able to try to get a glimpse
of how God sees them.
And if I were a parent, that's what I would, that's what I would seek.
I know this, Scott.
God is not wringing his hands.
Not at all.
He's not sweating bullets.
He's not, he's not losing any sleep.
He's not mad at the kid.
He's not mad at them.
He sees them with total mercy, with total grace.
He sees them as coming out on top.
It's just a matter of time.
Yeah.
Honestly, it's just a matter of time.
And I think this good father in the said that he's trying to get more patience.
Well, he needs to continue to try to receive that gift, which is another gift of the Spirit.
Yeah.
If you lose patience, then you're probably losing the Spirit because I think patience
is a gift of the Spirit.
So you have to focus on the Savior.
You have to live under the influence and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost and offer
love and mercy and grace to that individual without being, without ignoring the behavior,
without being indulgent, without being lenient, without excusing, without any of that.
If you don't, Satan can turn you into a victim and cause you to lose the Spirit.
I know it's hard.
You know, any family's got their challenges.
Yes, we do.
And Satan can just take, find any chink like that one.
I think it's hard for us as Latter-day Saint parents and families because we judge so much
of our success, Scott, in life based on how our children turned out.
Well, if God did that, I wonder how he'd really feel about it.
I wonder how he feels about us doing it.
I mean, we've all, you know, we all know.
As he failed because one third rejected his plan and became sons of... did he fail?
It sure did not.
You know, did Adam and Eve fail?
Did Lehi fail because one third of his children?
No.
You know, I mean, it's just, it's wrong for us to think that we have failed.
There's no such thing as a perfect parent.
I know that.
I mean, none of us are perfect and we've all sinned and we've all made mistakes and we
all have our own failures, no doubt as parents.
But to believe that overall you're a failure because you have a wayward children or two
or three or four or five, you know, I have a friend who was in a state presidency and
he and his sweet wife, they're amazing people, amazing people.
And they had adopted nine children and all nine children were wayward.
They all turned out wayward.
I know there are special challenges with adoptions and anyway.
And it is what it is.
I'm just, that's the way it was.
And I remember him telling to me once, you know, we've told the Lord that we have done
the best we could with what he sent us.
I love that actually.
You know, sometimes that's how you see it.
And there's no doubt the Lord knew that this boy that we're talking about or any other
boy or girl who has troubles, there's none of that surprises God.
But it's not just how he sees them in the present, not just how he sees them in the
past and the present, but how he sees them in the past, present and future.
And when you can get a glimpse of that knowing the power of Jesus Christ that out of beauty
or out of ashes can become something beautiful, you know, beauty for ashes, garment of praise
for a spirit of heaviness and oil of joy for mourning.
When you understand that the Atom of Jesus Christ has that power, then nobody ever feels
like throwing it in a towel on any wayward child.
There's always hope.
Well, you gave some, you gave some pretty prolific examples, you know, you said heavenly
father lost a third of his children, Nephi had some wayward kids, Adam and Eve, all of
us, you know, and there's many, many more examples.
There's one big difference, you know, with heavenly fathers, the third that he lost,
there's no redemption.
With all of the rest of ours, there's redemption and they have already been redeemed.
They've already been purchased, Dave.
Well, and they were all valued.
Exactly.
None of them were fanceters.
No.
None of them were fanceters in the pre-born existence.
And even though we think, you know, we raise our kids in the church and all these other
things, we just don't know the conditions that our kids are in.
100% of the time.
We don't.
And so we really do need to withhold any kind of judgment towards them or ourselves about
what that even means.
We've talked about this so many times offline, Scott, about some of our challenges with our
own family and with our own challenges that we had growing up.
And the fact is, Scott, you never, even a parent does not know what a child has really
been through.
I went, I was golfing.
Oh man.
Well, I won't say when or who, but I was golfing recently with someone who was telling me that
over and over and over again, this, this dear father, sweet father, interviewing his children,
asking them about, you know, is there anything you need to tell me?
Is there anything wrong?
Is there any, even felt impressed that there was something wrong with one of his children?
And I, I, I want you to tell me anything and, and the child never did.
Well, I'll come to find out.
They were being sexually abused for a long time and ended up acting it out and all kinds
of problems.
And now, you know, not, not in the church.
And Scott, even parents, even as parents, you think you know everything about your children,
that you really don't.
And you, it would be awesome if as a parent, children would come clean and tell you about
all of their challenges and problems and maybe bullying in their life and, and abuse in their
life and, and why they see themselves the way they see themselves.
And if a parent could see all the negativity in certain individuals life, I mean, even,
if like you, you were a student by president, you were a student by president, all the things
that you were able to accomplish in all the council, church council and everything you,
you were on as a youth.
And yeah, you, you know, you had your challenges and, and nobody really knows why except you.
And it's, it's so sad to find out as I did as a, as a dad about, you know, certain individuals
in my own family, things were happening to them.
I had no idea.
And as a result, it, it caused some real problems for them.
Again, if we could just give empathy, by the way, no sympathy, I think sympathy is always
negative.
But if we could just give empathy, if we could just come to an understanding of what our
children are going through, maybe just again, get a glimpse.
Wow, we would be so much more kind, patient, merciful, less judgmental.
I, you have to call sin what it is.
But oftentimes there are reasons behind it.
And it's important for us to try to seek to understand that.
And especially, and by far the most important is to know that the power of Jesus Christ
and through his Atonement that there is no depth.
Any child or individual may go.
No amount of darkness that they may be immersed in where the Atonement of Jesus Christ won't
lift them, cover them and fill them with light.
So you hope on, you pray on, you fast and faith on and you do, you all do all of that.
And in the timing of the Lord, Scott, in the timing of the Lord, those children are sealed.
If people have been sealed in the temple and parents are keeping their covenants, we have
been promised that this Lorenzo Snow, my favorite, when he said, as yonder as the sun comes over
those mountains, your children are yours for eternity.
This power of godliness manifests in the ordinances of the Gospel.
You're not going to lose any children, even if they're making terrible decisions and choices
right now.
I believe it's only a matter of time.
Doesn't mean they're going to go to the highest degree, the celestial kingdom be exalted.
Well, not until they repent for sure.
But I don't believe I have a child that's not going to be willing to repent.
I don't believe I have a child who doesn't understand that I love the Lord Jesus Christ
and they felt the spirit of Christ in our home.
And I don't think that they're just going to forget that or disrespect that.
As long as they have some degree of desire, I don't, I don't worry about my children.
And even if they maybe lost that, any desire, maybe they lost all desire, I would never
give up hope on them because of what I believe about the power of Christ manifest through
his atoning sacrifice.
I agree.
And you know, to this father, you know, our prayers are with you, but also see the redemption
alive in your own life and look for the blessings and the absolute miracle of your own redemption.
And all of the other redemptions that are important to us will follow as we keep our
covenants as David just mentioned.
Maybe Scott, instead of, I've said this prayer, I prayed soften his heart.
Please God soften his heart.
I prayed in faith.
I prayed with real intent that prayer, Scott, a more effective prayer would be soften my
heart.
Soften my heart that I may see him the way thou sees him.
Soften my heart that I can be in a better position to help him.
And maybe help me to know how to help him to see himself that way.
But through your help, not my own ideas, not my own impressions, you know, right, help
you please, Father, help me to know how.
And one just one more time, when you take fear and pride out of it, I had some parents
the other day asked me about what I would do in a certain circumstance, you know, with
a child who didn't want to do something that they wanted to force him to do.
Right.
And I said, well, let's let's just start with this.
If you take your fears out of it and you take your pride out of it.
Now what does it look like?
You still want to force him?
If you take away your fears and your pride, you still want to force him?
I don't think so.
You'll see you'll end up weeping for the child, not because of the child.
You know, if you really take out your fears and pride and all of that, Scott, there's
so many parents weeping because of their children, when in fact they should be weeping for their
children.
Right.
And that's what they're really with because that's what happens.
Eventually with I love that.
Yeah.
The empathy.
We see, you know, as my role, I guess you'd call it in recovery circles, you know, and
things like that, you know, we see this a lot.
You know, we see it from a parent, we see it from a spouse, we see it from a child, you
know, just relationships are tricky.
They just are, you know, a relationship in this world.
They can be complex.
They can be, you know, and as we see that, though, as we see that focus on the solution,
on the spirit, on the Atonement of Jesus Christ, which is simple, his power through that, it
takes the complexity away.
Yeah, exactly.
And then with that, when the complexity leaves and I'm able with his help because it requires
the enabling power of his Atonement to help me to remove the fear and pride, I can't do
that on my own.
I need the enabling power for me sometimes to do that.
Absolutely.
To feel that joy in sorrow.
That's right.
And so the Atonement of Jesus Christ is at process throughout this entire exercise or
this entire effort.
And as we go through that, and as I see this in the rooms of recovery too, you know, there's
just a as we focus on the power that heals us, the power that redeems us, the power that
brings us to him, that power will take care of our Heavenly Father's love, the Atonement
of Jesus Christ and all the powers that come through that will take care of our loved ones
too.
Yeah, absolutely.
They're their his kids.
They were first.
They always will be.
There's nothing more that he wants for them to come back to his presence and and the Savior
has said in prophets of coded prophets of coded prophets about this.
Jesus will never finish his work until all of God's children will come home.
Right.
Deb and I didn't intend for us to go this long on this topic, but I will just I hopefully
there's been some benefit and I believe there probably is through this conversation.
But you know, Deb and I combined a family 20 something years ago.
I should know the exact.
We would 2002.
It'll be 21 years in August of this year.
And when we combine a family, you know, our kids mine and ours.
Exactly.
No, ours.
I mean, they're all ours now.
Yeah, yours and mine.
Yeah.
And so and so when we combine that family, those this family comes in, the kids are about
the same age and they come from homes where addiction and both on both sides was an issue.
You know, and so with that comes a lot of other issues.
And I'll never forget the time Deb and I had been and I don't even remember which kid
it was that we were so worried about.
It could have been any of them.
But there was a situation one time when we were just at our wits end, we'd been to the
temple, we'd been fasting, we'd been to the temple again, we'd been fasting some more
and just on and on trying to merit peace in our family's life.
We were trying to work towards peace in our family's life.
And you know, and we got it, you know what brought it?
The finally brought that peace was when we nailed down by the side of our bed together
after fasting.
And I think after one of us, maybe probably her receiving some guidance from the spirit
that we should do this when we nailed down and we said, Heavenly Father, those children
are children were yours first and they still are.
We realize our relationship with them is eternal.
We hope that it can be a family relationship eternally and that's our that's our desire,
that's our aim, that's what we work for here.
But we know that they were yours first and we're not doing a very good job accomplishing
what we think we should be accomplishing right now.
We need you to take them back.
And when we metaphorically, spiritually in a way gave them back to him and just told
him, Heavenly Father, we'll be your tool.
Yeah, we'll partnership, we'll partner with you, do what you need us to do.
And we hope that we can live worthy enough to receive the inspiration from you in order
to do that.
Yep.
Tell us what to do and we'll do it.
And when we did that, our lives changed.
That was 15 plus years ago.
Your approach changes.
It's been different.
Changes you, changes your approach, changes how you see it.
I had a dear friend who was a stake president who had a daughter who desired to have her
name removed from the church and oh, he is sweet heart, such good people and prayed and
prayed and prayed.
God please, please change her.
Please change her and help her to change her mind and change her heart.
And that was their prayer and it was, it was powerful and it was in faith and it was consistent
over many days and weeks and months.
And one night they were praying and they were praying together and in the middle of this
request, they both opened their eyes and they looked at each other and they said, did you,
did you hear that?
Did you feel that?
Simultaneously, they had a powerful manifestation to, this was their thought that both of them
had and it came to them as words in their mind.
You just love her.
I will change her.
But for now, you just love her.
Your responsibility is to love her and I will change her.
And they're still waiting for that change.
God, after all these years and, and, but they have hope.
Sure.
They have peace.
They have knowledge.
Yeah.
They, they know God's in control.
They're not in control and it just totally melded away their fear and their pride and
all the negatives that go with that when we think that we're losing a child.
I mean, that's a real fear when you think you're losing a child.
Yeah, it really is.
Or that you might lose grandchildren because of a lost child or whatever.
Yeah, it really is.
It's a real fear, but man, it can be swallowed up.
It can be swallowed up in the love of Christ, the love of God, right in the atonement and
pray on and hope on and, and faith and in the timing of the Lord.
Everything's going to be just fine.
Everything is going to be just fine.
So I, I know that's true for that father, for that son, for that family, for all.
Family, for your family, for all of us.
Well, um, we've taken up most of our, a lot of time for that, but I think that was important.
I think that that's, yeah, I think the timing there is critical.
I think that the, and we keep getting that request.
So just time to parents who are concerned about wayward children.
And it'll come up again.
You know, this is a constant battle that I think we as parents continually fight or
fight within ourselves sometimes, you know, but I think, you know, for me again, it's
getting a lot easier to, to realize who really is in control and let him be, let him be in
control.
Well, Dave, we've got about 15 minutes that we can kind of talk about, unless you have
anything else you want to kind of wrap up around that topic.
We, I think we should probably leave that Scott and, and maybe we can just wrap up some
thoughts on the, we were in the heart of repentance.
Right.
By this, you shall know if man repenteth of his sins, he will confess them and forsake
them.
And confession is such an critical part of repentance.
And we spent a, our whole last podcast on that, Scott, but maybe there were just a few
things that we should wrap up on them.
And I, I, with all the energy of my heart, I want to say that repentance is not an institutional
activity.
Amen.
Scott.
Amen.
However, the church plays a critical role in repentance when serious sins have been committed.
And the handbook lists very clearly what some of those serious sins are.
And the church plays a critical role in helping individuals to repent.
The church has keys, the keys of the priesthood.
There's power in that, Scott.
And part of the power of the keys of a bishop as president of the Aaronic priesthood is
the keys of repentance, repentance and the administering of angels.
Right.
And both can be critical.
I mean, there's a whole, there's a whole chapter in Elder Anderson's book on the role of angels
in repentance.
These two things are actually connected.
That the bishop has a role to administer the keys of repentance and angels, administering
of angels and the atonement of Jesus Christ in the lives of others.
Scott, that, that's the keys that a bishop, a common judge in Israel has.
So it's just really important that, that our listeners understand that church plays a really
important, um, special role in helping us to repent of serious sins.
And any member can look in the church handbook of instructions, which I love, which is chapter
32 in the church handbook of instructions.
This is all available to the public.
They can look at the whole list of serious sins.
Uh, and here's, here's just a, uh, the beginning.
Violent acts and abuse, sexual immorality, any fraudulent acts, violations of trust and
special, uh, some other acts.
And there are any time that murder or rape or sexual assault or child or youth abuse
or abuse of a spouse or another adult or any predatory behavior, violent, sexual or financial,
incest, pornography, especially children pornography, plural marriage, uh, serious sin while holding
a prominent church position, most felony convictions.
All of these, there's a long list of serious sins that must be confessed to the proper
church authority.
There may be a membership council that needs to be called, which again is a really serious,
special, important part of repentance for those who have committed certain serious sins.
And there might be a, uh, a bishops council, uh, bishop might preside over a membership
council or a stake president might preside over a membership council on the stake level,
especially for those who have been endowed or married in the temple and received higher
ordinances and made higher, uh, covenants or a mission president even has keys to administer
over a membership council.
And those membership councils, Scott, are, oh man, they are so spiritual, so powerful,
especially if the individual is repentant.
Uh, I've been in some hard ones where that's not been the case and they're not always pleasant,
but I've always felt the spirit in those membership councils, either to help a person
to repent or in a few rare instances to call a person to repentance.
And they're really just councils of love filled with the spirit of the Lord to help an individual
to receive all of the blessings of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
And there is no sin that cannot be repented of.
I mean, there's one sin that we call not only unforgivable but unpardonable, and that's
the denying of the Holy Ghost, but I don't think any member that I know of would ever
even want to repent or use the church to overcome that sin.
Everyone who goes in to confess to the bishop, there's no sin that they cannot repent of
and the church can help.
The keys of the priesthood can help.
So, um, outcomes of membership councils to just review those quickly.
There might be no action taken.
Person may remain in good standing in the church.
There may be some, uh, some informal action taken or church counseling perhaps required
to help some individuals.
And there may be some, uh, uh, special restrictions on membership that may be placed on an individual.
Uh, that maybe they, maybe they can't say prayers or participate in church meetings.
Uh, uh, I mean, they can't teach.
They can't hold certain callings or there may be some membership restrictions or in the,
in the very worst cases, which would be rare, their, their membership may be withdrawn.
You know, we use call that excommunication.
We don't call that, call it that now.
Seems a little harsh.
So we call it now because of the mercy of the Lord.
Uh, in this culture, we call that withholding their membership.
And those are kind of the, uh, the outcomes and, and the whole purpose of membership councils
Scott in the church are really important for priesthood leaders to consider.
And they know these that number one, right?
We are to protect any victims.
One who has been hurt or abused or victimized membership councils take into consideration
the needs and the salvation and the recovery of any victims.
And second, we really consider the salvation of the individual who is confessing or who
has been caught in sin and maybe isn't confessing.
Those are even harder, but that's such a critical consideration is the salvation of the individual.
And then third is the consideration of the integrity of the church.
Those are three of the considerations that often guide the outcomes of church membership
all under the direction of the spirit of the Lord.
Ultimately, I mean individuals, some individuals Scott could commit the same sin and some may
remain in good standing and maybe some lose their membership in the church.
I mean, there's just, it's just all depends on background circumstances.
How many people were ended up being injured or hurt or suffered or how many people know
about it, which affects the integrity of the church and what was the intent of the individual
and motivation and anyway, all of that condition, all the conditions and circumstances are taken
into consideration, but ultimately the spirit of the Lord.
I've got my experiences in those councils and I've been in many, many of those councils.
The spirit of the Lord ultimately determines the outcome.
Wouldn't it be safe to say to Dave in some of those situations that the ability to perceive
a broken heart and contract spirit is definitely going to come to play into that too, right?
Absolutely.
And sometimes these councils help an individual be able to experience a broken heart and contract
spirit.
Yeah.
And a lot of times these councils help certain people have the ability to forgive themselves
ultimately.
Yes, absolutely.
In fact, Scott, there was one man who came in a membership council many years ago who
honestly, we knew the Lord had forgiven him, but we knew he had to be excommunicated, what
we called it then, because if he wasn't, the spirit made it very clear to us that he'd
never forgive himself.
He would never forgive himself.
Wow.
Yeah.
And maybe there would be members of his family who would never forgive him or who would be
negatively affected in their standing in the church if he was not excommunicated.
So you know, there's just every case is different, but the one thing they all have in common,
their councils of love, and they are directed by the spirit of Lord.
That's been my experience in all of them.
I've had my own experience there.
And you know, I'm not going to share in detail this time.
If you wanted to hear that, you can go back to last season, this very episode last season
I did share in some detail.
But Dave, I've been through that to that council myself where there was a lifting of my membership
excommunication.
And you know, it was actually a blessing.
So often, you know, I if you scroll through social media, you'll see somebody that's screaming
and yelling about the church is wrong because of this.
If you go to, you know, various news outlets, you know, there's this is just one of those
things that can sometimes be misconstrued and done so in a way that's just completely
inaccurate.
And so and I know not everybody's experience is the same.
But for me, when that experience was my experience, I was one of those that had I have not been
able to have the opportunity to experience what I experienced in a removal of my membership
privileges at that time that there may have been a really difficult time and really difficult
for me, I should say, to complete the repentance process.
Absolutely, Scott.
There's just thank you for saying that.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I just I just don't think that, you know, there would have been a stoppage, a
complete stoppage, you know, because the pattern in my life had become so ingrained.
And for various reasons, and I don't want to get in and there's no blame game.
There's none of that.
But for whatever it is what it is.
But for various reasons, it had been so the pattern had been so ingrained in me to be
able to, you know, just kind of skirt my way around things to talk my way around it to,
you know, he's a good kid going back to that, you know, we let him know you're and I really,
really rode that roller coaster for a long time and tell at that that event for me that
that that membership counts and the keys of the priestess got termed and I heard that
and I felt that.
I felt that and there's power and they will open up doors.
Yeah, they'll open up doors that will help you to be either more accountable or more
remorseful or more committed or or whatever they those keys are so are just so critical.
There's been times through my experience when I was participating in my own addictive compulsive
behaviors and when others that I now help in Alcoholics Anonymous and other things like
that participate in their obsessive compulsive behaviors drinking, for example, you know,
there were just times when I would promise swear it off, you know, in the big book of
Alcoholics Anonymous, there's a whole a couple of paragraphs that talk about what we did,
you know, we'd swear it off with and without a oath, we'd make a deal with Heavenly Father,
we would make a promise to ourselves that if I ever did this again, then this would
be my consequence.
And even if it was my consequence, it wasn't enough for me to be deterred.
And so when I had that that experience and went through that membership council and literally
felt the power of the priesthood, the keys of the priesthood being turned to my behalf
to precipitate my repentance, which is my full turning back to him, which is the invitation
to have the Spirit back in my life, which is an invitation for me to take his name upon
me and understand what that means and really be committed to it.
If I had not have gone through that, I don't know.
I don't know because I don't see forward, but there's pretty good chance and that's
probably why Heavenly Father put that in my path.
Well, I know one thing, Scott, if you wouldn't have gone through that, you wouldn't be holding
keys of the priesthood today.
I mean, here you are now, all those years later, and you hold keys.
So you know, that's the power of the miracle of the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
And that's the miracle of repentance and forgiveness in our life.
Right.
And to our Father that we talked about earlier, I was your kid, dad.
Don't give up on him.
Yeah, exactly.
Don't you give up on him.
And don't you put love in him.
And don't you put impediment.
Maybe that dad should see his son someday holding keys.
Yep.
Because that's how Heavenly Father sees him.
I just want to ask you, and I've told this before, my good friend, Japanese brother in
the Gospel, also a former bishop and had a wayward son and how he prayed for that wayward
son and one day in the Chicago temple, praying in the celestial room for his wayward son.
And he feels impressed to look up towards the veil and he looks up towards the veil
and he sees with spiritual eyes.
He sees his son coming through the veil clothed in the holy robes of the priesthood and he
just wept.
He has never again lost peace or joy because of that wayward son and that wayward son has
not yet gone through the temple.
But he received a witness that someday he would and he had that he has that vision.
He has that hope, that assurance by the spirit.
So I hope Scott, that all of our listeners can again exercise true, true, powerful faith
in the Atonement of Jesus Christ and that there is no one who's been lost from Heavenly
Father that the Atonement of Jesus Christ can't save.
It's been good, Dave, to be here to have this conversation with you today.
To our listeners, we hope you know that you have been redeemed through his blood.
We hope you feel a spirit.
We hope that we haven't extended an official.
Typically we do, but we haven't extended an official invitation today, but maybe the spirit
has.
And if you've felt a prompting from the spirit, an invitation to do something, to be something
different or to participate in something, we invite you to do that.
Encourage you to do so.
Don't forget that you have been redeemed through his blood.
Thanks for being with us today and always we look forward to being with you again next
week as well.
Until then, have a great week, everybody.