Hello, my name is Leslie Kane and I am the host of the Why Not Today podcast.
This is a podcast to celebrate people who have been courageous and said, why not today?
I started this podcast in honor of my father, Patrick Kane, who often said, why not today?
I am based in Reston, Virginia, a Planned community right outside of Washington, DC,
and thanks for joining us today.
And I'm super excited to have my guest, Karen Cleveland.
And before we hear from Karen and all her wisdom, I would like to talk about connections
and how you meet people and how you know people.
And oh my goodness, Karen, I've known you forever, but not really known you forever.
And you were in my father's circle and part of the chamber.
And I mean, we have so many connections that go so far back from starting the chamber.
And I love hearing your story about the first time you first day at the chamber and meeting
my dad to my sister working for you, to just knowing who you were and didn't really know
you well until I think when my dad passed away and we kind of connected and started
doing more and I think really got close during COVID during all of our walks around the lake,
multiple walks on the lake to get through that period.
And now I am grateful to have you as a coach, a mentor, and especially a friend.
And I'm super excited to have you on the podcast today.
We're going to talk about lots of different things about courage and COVID and I don't
know, we talked about lots of different ideas.
So we're just going to have a conversation here.
So Karen, why don't we, before we hear your courageous story and all about courage, why
don't you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about you and a fun fact that you might
not know.
Great.
Well, thanks, Leslie.
It's great to be here with you today.
I'm originally from Cincinnati, Ohio.
So think of myself as a midwesterner and I grew up on a college campus on a football
field.
Basically, my dad was a college football coach and part of my courage story, I think is the
fact that I have five brothers and sisters, all of whom were world-class athletes or nationally
ranked athletes at some point in their career.
And while your guests cannot see me, I'm 5'10 and had been this tall since I was 11 and
somehow the coordination gene just skipped me completely.
So I spent a lot of time in the bleachers, in the stands, wherever cheering on my siblings
and watching my dad coach football.
So I'm an avid sports fan.
Just prefer my sport to be walking around the lake.
Yes, definitely.
So and you've done lots of different things in your career and we'll kind of talk about
that.
So before we start, what does courage mean to you?
You know, you asked me to think about that ahead of time and I've really given it a lot
of thought.
I think that courage, you know, or being brave is inextricably, inextricably, I can't even
say that word, linked to confidence and really self-assuredness.
And I think at least for me, it's hard to separate the two.
So courage is about being able to see where you want to go or what you want to do and
living in the moment to do the right thing.
And if you practice, like most skills, being courageous, I think you can draw on that when
you need it.
I love that.
And just so you know, I don't know if you had a chance to check out the website, but
I have, I only got my website up and everybody that's on the podcast, I have courage cards
with your definition of courage.
I love that.
So people can share them and kind of see everybody's definitions.
So you've done lots in your life and had a very wide career from, gosh, remember, I didn't
know this, but aerobics with a friend of mine from high school to all different things to
run lots of organizations and on a gazillion boards and you really make a difference in
the community.
So tell me, you know, what have you done in your life that took some courage?
Oh gosh, there are so many steps in my life that really were leaps of faith.
And so it took courage to get there.
You know, back to what it's linked to though, too, I have always spent a lot of time reflecting,
trying to understand where I want to go.
You know, I always think of it as sharpening your viewfinder.
I don't know if a lot of your listeners are old enough to know what a viewfinder is, those
things you look through and click until you get some clarity.
And that's how I like to think of my life.
And so I spent a lot of time when I was younger thinking about what am I good at and what
do I enjoy doing?
And I was pretty good at figuring that out.
The challenge for me was I didn't think there was a lot of value in what I was good at and
what I enjoyed doing.
So it was really the help of people in my life who were able to see my strengths and
saw them as valuable, who were holding up a mirror for me.
And I would say that those early times took a lot of courage to step into my own and really
believe that I could be successful doing some of these things that matched my skill set
and my desires really to be involved in.
It's always been about helping people one way or another.
And so that's been the thread through all of my career.
And you're definitely doing a lot of that.
And I love that you were able to tap into other people to have them look at your strengths
and see, which is a powerful tool in our toolbox to help us become better in who we are.
That's right.
That's the biggest gift you can give to other people is to be that person for them to hold
up that mirror and call them out in a good way and say, hey, I see this.
I see you.
So how do you get people to help you with that?
Do you ask them to what your strengths are?
Do you look at mentors?
And how did you go about doing that?
So I think it's about putting yourself in the right position.
Putting yourself in the place of most opportunity, if you will.
And that does take courage too sometimes to get out of your comfort zone.
I still remember one of, you know, I have these strings of pivotal moments in my life
that I could go back and say, this happened.
And then it was a force accelerator for me in one way or another.
And so I would go all the way back to when I was in college and I was a resident advisor
in the dorm, which is an incredible learning experience.
I bet.
And we did a little training session one day.
So it was all the advisors from a couple of dorms.
And just like we would do today in Leadership Fairfax, where I am today, you know, it would
be a team building kind of thing.
And so people had to say one word about you.
So we each had our time where people would say one word or a phrase about us.
And somebody said of me, Rock of Gibraltar.
And I said, what?
And they said, oh my gosh, you are the strongest person I've ever met.
And I did not see myself that way at all.
So even though it was a shock, what I could feel is I could feel some pride that, oh my
gosh, if other people see me as having strength, then how do I own that?
How do I use that?
So it was just that one little moment that gave me some clarity as well as some belief
in myself.
So that was really the first time that that happened to me.
And then again, I could point to places throughout my career where others have done that for
me.
Yeah.
So do you seek out people or you're just in the right situation?
Like if I wanted to know what my strengths were, obviously I can call you.
But absolutely.
Or I talk about on a walk around the lake.
Yeah.
Well, honestly, I never asked about it to anyone.
I think I was just fortunate.
And like I said, I tried to put myself in the place of most potential so that I would be
around people who I felt like I could learn from.
And I think if you yourself are open, then people will know that they can actually share
with you or come into that space.
So to share just one other story, there was a gentleman.
So I took a job.
My first chamber of commerce job was with the then Fairfax County Chamber of Commerce.
And you know, it was weird.
I really didn't deserve the job.
I really wasn't experienced in the right areas for it.
But the job just kept popping up everywhere.
So I thought I'll apply for this.
And I loved being on a chamber committee before.
Maybe I could do this job.
So I think, quite frankly, the CEO was just tired of looking at resumes.
And I walked in the door and he hired me.
And he liked self starters.
So he liked to hire people and then just kind of throw them into the wolf's den and see
if they can swim.
So it was a good place for me for a while.
And there was a gentleman who ran one of the committees I was in charge of.
And my first month there, we had a board meeting.
Now you have to understand this is Northern Virginia in the 80s.
So this is like 1980.
What would that have been?
86.
This town was going crazy with development.
Weston's was no longer this sleepy little corner with a little store there.
Reston was booming like crazy all over Northern Virginia.
And we had a very powerful board of directors.
All men, except one woman, by the way, and only one other senior staff person that was
female.
So it was this whole room full of powerful men from Northern Virginia.
And I'm sitting next to the chair of one of my boards.
And there was a discussion about what we as Northern Virginia get back from Richmond and
how much money we send to Richmond.
So it was an important discussion.
In first, a gentleman right across from me spoke.
And he was laying on the table like his elbows were on the table and his chin was on his
hands.
And I said to my committee guy, I said, who is that?
And he said, oh, that would be Till Hazel, who was really an architect of Northern Virginia
development.
And I said, well, why is he laying on the table?
And he said, well, his cow kicked him in the back.
So he's sore.
And to me to this day, that is a symbol of kind of the longevity of my time here in Northern
Virginia, because Till Hazel was one of the most powerful developers.
But he also lived out on a mountain and had cows and animals.
So a couple of minutes later, gentleman right next to him pushed back from his seat and
stood up in this beautiful Virginia accent said, Mr. Chairman, may I have the floor?
And everyone around that table sat back against their chairs and they took a breath and they
held it and waited for this man to speak.
So I turned to my guy again and I said, and who might this be?
And he said, this is Earl Williams.
Pay attention.
I don't know who that is.
And so from that day forward, I tried to fashion my leadership style after Earl Williams.
So at the time, he was the CEO of a government contractor here called BPM that was bought
out.
I'm not sure I could remember all that.
It was eventually became Northrop Grumman and he ran for governor of Virginia.
He chaired so many boards around here and was just such an influential leader and one
of the kindest men and generous with his time and attention.
And he was one of those people that when you would see him, you always felt like he was
just waiting for you right there.
And he would give you all the time in the world.
Kind of like they always say Mary Kay Asch is one of her best traits where she paid attention
to people and everybody said, make sure or imagine everybody has a sign around them says
their necks that says make me feel important and hours and hours for people to meter and
look eyeball to eyeball to each person and give everybody equal attention.
And yeah, that is leadership.
And going back to kind of what you said earlier, it's like being around like minded people
goal oriented makes such a difference if you want to be known, be successful, be a part
of the community.
My father was a master of that.
And he started the rest of the Chamber of Mention office, but he didn't have business
here.
He was raising six kids in the community.
And that was important to him.
And so knowing who to be around and that takes courage to introduce yourself, to get to know
people, to let people know who you are.
And it's being there to help and contribute and make a difference and really because you
care.
And you know, Leslie, I think particularly for women, I mean, we've come a long way in
the work environment and I feel incredibly fortunate to have grown up during this time.
It wasn't easy when I first started in business, but it's you know, there are much more opportunities
now.
But it's challenging, particularly when you're starting out to allow yourself to be vulnerable
and vulnerability is a leadership skill and a trait.
And it is such an important part of being a leader.
But it does take courage to do that because it's it can be a risk.
Yeah, absolutely.
So I know you and I talked about lots of different subjects and we talk all the time.
And so what you didn't say is that you are the CEO of leadership Fairfax, which is a
big job as it is.
You are a trained coach and you are an excellent coach.
And I think just, you know, I feel privileged that with our walk around the lake that I
get coached all the time and and just kind of listen and watch what you're doing in the
coaching world.
And one of the things we've talked about, you know, in the last three years in coaching
and just life is, you know, COVID was hard and it's not over.
And you keep bringing up a term called COVID hangover.
And this podcast is to talk about people that are courageous and done courageous things,
but also to give people hope and tools in their toolboxes.
Okay, so and I think one of the things that's kind of evolved is people are able to say
me too, like, oh my gosh, I'm not the only person out there with some of the subjects
we've talked about.
So talk a little bit about that and how we can help people navigate the self awareness.
Okay, this is this is what's going on.
And I think you that was a perfect segue because I think it really does tie into the vulnerability
piece to what I've been noticing is that
the hangover seems to be in two particular areas right now.
Now it may affect everybody in some way, but particularly the folks that have been on the
front line, it's definitely not over for them.
And many of them will be dealing with trauma for quite some time.
And we're so grateful for everybody that was on the front lines for all that time.
The other group that it is so noticeable for is really the people who have held it all
together in their work environment, whether they're managers, leaders, CEOs, but have
really held it together for everyone else.
And those are the same people that are holding it together for their family and their community.
Yeah, one thing you mentioned earlier, which reminded me of a conversation we had talking
about, you know, somebody looked at you as being strong.
And that's a great trait, but it also can be a bad trait that people think of you as
strong.
And I remember from hard times, and wasn't there an article or something you read, you
told me about some powerful CEO, somebody, maybe it was a coach that said, do you remember
this?
That they're like, you know, nobody asked me how I am strong, you know, they think you
got it all together when you're strong, a strong person, nobody thinks to check on you.
That's right.
Well, any strength overdone can be a weakness.
So let's be clear about that anyway.
You know, I don't remember that specific story, Leslie, but it certainly rings true for me,
that people and it happens the further up a ladder you go to, and the stronger you are
on a daily basis, people don't think to ask you.
So I would love for all your listeners to really think about the people in their life,
it all levels in check in with them, and ask them how they are doing and really listen
to your point about how Mary Kay did is really, really listen.
This level one listening where you only listen long enough to say what you have been wanting
to say is not the same thing as as listening.
But the thing about that I'm seeing about this COVID hangover right now is the depletion
factor that people who have held it all together all this time are really struggling to re
energize to find any energy.
They're just so depleted.
So I know you and I were taught we always talk about what is our word for a year this
time of year, and mine for this year has to be grace.
Because I want to give myself grace, first of all, because I too am feeling depleted
in many ways.
And it's if I didn't have a to do list, that I could at least check some of the more mundane
things off, I would find it really difficult to actually accomplish them.
Yeah.
So having grace both for ourselves and for others, and recognizing in small ways what's
going on with others.
And ways to do that is simply by having the time, taking the time, making a phone call,
even sending a text, you know that you're thinking of someone, please recognize what's
going on with other people.
And those little things can go, they can go a long way any day, but right now, we need
it more than ever.
Yeah, absolutely.
And you're paying attention to people and just those little things can make such a difference.
I often wear a starfish necklace that reminds me that, you know, one person can make a difference
and just that kind word to somebody or just checking in with somebody or paying attention,
you know, social media is out there and, you know, people post things all the time, but
are you really paying attention?
Are they screaming for help?
Are they looking for some great?
Yeah.
Well, and you know, that goes with identity as well.
I mean, years ago when I worked for Habitat for Humanity, I don't even remember how I
got this awareness.
Sometimes things just smack you upside the head and you have to pay attention to them.
And I realized that my staff thought I was perfect.
They thought I never made a mistake.
I didn't do anything wrong.
They just, so they were afraid to make a mistake or to tell me, you know, that something was
hard or they needed help.
And I was so embarrassed when I realized that because I thought if they only knew how much
I screw up every day, because that's how, if you're afraid to make mistakes, you're
going to get stuck and you won't continue to move forward.
So I found that what I started doing, because I always would walk around anyway and visit
with everyone, is use that opportunity to share when I would screw something up or how
I would fix something that I thought was broken or use it as a teachable moment.
And around that same time, and this is, I think I was in coaching school at the time
too, which was helpful, is I started paying more attention to people I would just run
into casually that I didn't know.
People in a coffee shop in, I don't know, standing in line at the grocery store.
And I realized over that time that people had an impression of me or saw an image of
me that then they had me in a box.
And of course, none of us are that little, you know, in that box, because we all try
to show up as the best version of ourselves, but we're so much more than that.
So what I started doing more, I don't know, just to see if people wouldn't think it was
weird, is just like, I don't know, complimenting people or some small thing.
Like I might say to a complete stranger, that is the most beautiful color pink on you.
It looks fantastic.
And you know, you can do something like that and brighten somebody's day.
And what I found is that just seeing a smile back really brightens my day too.
So I've been able to continue that as, you know, the years have progressed.
And I'm so grateful for whatever motivated me to do that.
Yeah, again, it goes back to Mary Kay teaching.
Yeah.
Sign around the neck makes me feel important.
And I've heard so many stories of people like having the worst day of their life and somebody
smiled or somebody made a difference.
And you just don't know all the little things you can do to make a difference.
So I think, you know, talking about COVID hangover, I think it's self awareness to say,
all right, I'm tired, I'm depleted.
What are we doing to fill us back up?
And I think we've gone from survival, which we had to figure out new businesses and new
lives and everything.
And then we went, we're obviously not all never going to be back to life before.
But then I think we've gone back to over stimulation.
Like during the holidays, I'm worn out.
It was there was many days in a row, I had a lunch appointment and a dinner or a lunch
party and a dinner and like multiple things to fit all these events and stuff in.
And having a minute to breathe, because we are feeling that overwhelmed to like, okay,
it's okay to breathe and to admit, you know, have that self awareness to see it, but admit,
okay, I need to fill me up.
And what am I going to do to do that?
Yeah, I think that's the best thing we could all do is have a plan of things that even
if it's a list, because quite frankly, sometimes it's exhausting just to think about when you
shift gears.
All right, what can I do for myself?
It seems like one more burden, where if you think about it ahead of time when you're in
a quiet space, and it may be if you're a person like me, a visual person, I like to write
them down, I like to put a post it next to my computer, so that it reminds me to go out
and walk to go see my sweet little grand babies next door, you know, to do something that
is fills that depletion, you know, that refills what we need.
The other thing about COVID that lastly, nobody's really talking about is that most of us were
able to do that pivot in March of 2020, because we had no choice, right?
Regardless of what kind of company or organization you're part of, you just did the pivot, you
did the best you could at it.
Everybody was all in, we were all working more hours.
So we may have been at home, but most of us were sitting in front of a computer, much
longer hours than we normally did.
So now, yes, we've learned lessons from it.
Yes, we're going to have probably hybrid work environments in the future.
But now that we're coming out of it, it takes just as much work to figure out how to do
this now.
Right.
Because nothing is the same.
No, nothing is the same.
Yeah.
And you know, how to redesign it.
And I think we were just in survival mode for so long.
Now it's like I'm watching in the world out there, people are starting to have goals and
dreams again.
And like, okay, what do I want?
You know, in my life, I was looking at some tracking that I used to do all the time.
The last time I recorded, went through that worksheet was February of 2020.
It's an interesting opening.
You know, it just got to be okay, if I'm still here and I'm still eating, I'm still good,
you know, and not thinking forward of what we want to do that we've just, you know, but
we had time, you know, I remember when COVID started, we were all going to do all these
projects because we are home for a week.
And how many of those projects we haven't gotten done.
But we did take time, I think for us, I think one of my favorite memories of COVID, if there
can be a good memory is sitting on your dock with our champagne, fresh strawberries I picked
from the, the, the field, I didn't pick them, but I've got them from a farmer's field, you
know, picked up and we took time to do those things.
Walking around the lake, you took time to talk to somebody and how are you?
And I think that's something maybe we need to get back to is carving out time and space
to pay attention to people.
Absolutely.
Because now that it's everybody's back to whatever it is, it's, you know, warp speed
again.
Yeah.
And ask people how they are.
So maybe that should be the challenge for anybody that listens to this.
Reach out to three friends and say, how are you?
Or let's get together or just thinking of you.
And that makes a difference.
I have a friend of mine that if she's in line at the drive through at Starbucks, she uses
that time to text people, just how are you?
You know, and just thinking of you, praying for you, whatever it is, sometimes it's nice
to be stuck in a line to, and we talked a little bit about this yesterday, you know,
to take a minute to breathe and not to look at your phone, but to look to the person next
to you and how are you and how's your day?
And you know, have a conversation with somebody.
That's right.
And as long as you're coming at it from an authentic standpoint, people don't think it's
weird.
I think a lot of people, you know, don't do that because they think they're invading someone's
privacy.
Right.
I don't feel that way at all.
I think if you're genuine, people will welcome that.
And you know, you have your own barometer if you feel like you're overstepping to someone.
But you know, it's amazing the relationships you can build.
I mean, really build from those random meetings.
Absolutely, you never know.
You never know who that person you're going to meet or where they're going to lead you.
And I think that's evident in your career and in my life, you know, just who you've
met and the connections and you know, you just never know looking back, like, wow, how
did I meet that person?
You know, it goes so bad.
I think one more thing about that, Leslie, that I think is really important, and I think
we started the conversation here and like to kind of swing back to that, is surrounding
yourself with people you want to be like, right?
Absolutely.
Who fill you in some way.
And I know not everybody is in a position in a work environment where they have all
the choices to so it may be difficult for some people.
But where and when you do have choices, think about it from that standpoint, what fills
you because you are going to expend so much physical and emotional energy in our jobs
because it's so much time out of our lives that if you can spend it around people who
fill you in some way, either challenge you intellectually, fill you emotionally, you
have fun with whatever that is in work and in your personal life, I think it's more fulfilling.
I mean, you and I really have been connected because we do so much community work.
Right.
And we know that our friend groups are the same people who we do our community work with
because we have a shared value system around helping others and making our community a
place where everybody is welcome and can thrive.
So if you invest your time and your energy that way, it's going to fulfill you in ways
that you probably can't even define when you get started.
Yeah, absolutely.
And, you know, put yourself in those places.
I remember there was a Oktoberfest and I had volunteered to help.
I don't even know what I was going to do.
But I had a friend visiting from around the town.
He's like, do you really have to do that?
I'm like, yeah, I said I was going to.
I'm going to do it.
He's like, well, was it going to help your business?
I'm like, I don't really care.
I committed to it.
I'm going to do it.
Well, there was a very powerful woman in the area that I always wanted to connect to.
And sure enough, she was selling tickets with me.
And I pulled out a lipstick or she pulled out a lipstick and Mary Kay came up.
And yes, she did become a customer, but she became a friend and a mentor.
And she's a leader in the area.
And it was like because I put myself in that place.
And so, you know, going back to the people being around the power, people that energize
you.
I had a conversation with a friend of mine yesterday.
And at the end, she goes, I love our conversations.
I always feel energized when I'm done.
And I love having those conversations with people.
And but there's the opposite.
And another friend recently said, do you feel people's energy?
I'm like, I don't know.
And then I started paying attention to it.
And I do.
And I had coffee with another person I know one day.
And it was just a negative conversation the whole way.
The last two minutes of our 90 minute conversation, it went way too long for me.
She said, oh, what's going on in your world?
And I walked out of that and I'm going, okay, I'm going to protect myself.
And I think because I'm gone a lot and I don't have a lot of space and time for a lot, a
lot of, you know, we've met with a ton of people.
I'm really being protective of my space and time and who I allow and those boundaries,
you know, to know, okay, those are the people, those aren't my people.
Do you need to take care of yourself for sure?
Self care is shows up in so many ways.
I do think in this COVID hangover, when people are feeling depleted too, it's even difficult
to, for some people to be there for their friends who are going through a difficult
time as well.
Because when you don't have enough energy for yourself, it's hard to have it for others,
even though you want to be there for them.
And I think it's, I think one of the most difficult things for most people is to be
really transparent about not just their intentions, but their feelings in situations like that.
And I think one of the best things you can see, because right, we're going to notice
and we're going to feed off of if you're not there for a friend, say to be really truthful
about it and say, I'm, you know, I'm sorry, you're going through a really tough time and
I want to be there for you.
I'm struggling too.
And you know, and then, yeah.
And so if we can say that, that goes back to the word of the year, grace, right?
Yep, exactly.
So I know we could go forever, but we're about 30 minutes on, I won't go too longer.
So what encouragement would you give to somebody to say, why not say and be courageous?
So I think one of the most freeing concepts I ever, I find, not ever, but I finally was
able to accept and embody is that fear is of something in the future.
So fear, other than bodily fear, when you're in that moment, you know, that survival mode,
but what most of us think of it is fearful times, something we're afraid of, afraid of
failure, afraid of rejection, afraid of whatever is we're projecting into the future.
Right.
And that's where fear comes from.
So if you believe that being present and doing the work, like, like I said, really understanding
who you are, what you care about, what's important.
And then you're in the present, I think you make much better decisions all the way around.
And then the future is laid open for you as opposed to something that is frightening.
Right.
So then the courage becomes really more of a, an energy, a momentum for you, a force
accelerator, if you will.
And you know, the more you live in that space of bravery, I have a sign on my wall that
says courageous authenticity, because I want to be brave, but I want to be brave enough
to own who I am and bring that out into the world and manifest it.
And so I believe that.
So for all of your listeners to really believe that they are enough, that they have what
it takes to be successful in any way that they want to be and be the person that they
want to be.
So be present, do that work and keep fear somewhere out of your viewfinder.
And I know you can be successful.
And what's fear is evidence appearing real or some there's an acronym, but yeah, fear,
we don't know what it is.
And yeah, do the work and do the thing, do the scary thing.
And that's what I talk about a why not say like that thing and just take that step.
Because you just never know where it's going to lead you talk to that person.
Yeah, so we go on and on.
So I always at the end talk about connections to my dad, which a lot of people like I never
met your dad.
But you did meet my dad.
So my favorite story my dad and I can because I've heard it so many times I can see it,
I can feel it, I can smell this conversation with my father.
So share just because it's when you first met my dad.
Well actually I had met him once before.
But it was my first day on the job at the Reston Chamber of Commerce.
And first of all, I walked in on my first day and the other two staff members quit.
So it was just me there that day.
And it wasn't because of me, but it was because of how things were handled that they weren't
happy with.
So the first thing I did was call a an employment agency and get a temp over there to answer
the phones while I was sorting things through.
So the temp buzzed me in the back room and she whispered into the phone.
She said, there's somebody here to see you.
And I said, who might that be?
And she said, I don't know, but he has a patch over his eye.
So I knew who it was.
And I walked out.
And just like you, the whole sensation, all of my senses are filled thinking back.
So there was your dad in his his faded bell bottom blue jeans, flip flops, flip flops,
did have a patch over his eye, of course, which is your logo and his mustache, of course,
famous mustache and a pipe in his mouth, his armed cross holding his pipe, cropped up holding
that pipe.
And he may have even had sunglasses on at that point.
It was it was a spring day.
And he he said, Welcome.
He said, I just want you to know that I'm here and whatever you need, I'm here for you.
And I don't even think I told him what had happened that day.
I don't know what's happening anymore.
I just thanked him.
And yeah, was such a wonderful.
Mouthwash sensation in so many ways, but to know that he was there because I knew the
history, of course, that he had started the chamber.
He was the chairman for the first couple of years and that he was such a strong leader
in the community that I was like, all right, I can do this.
So to your point, you know, it was almost like he was saying, why not today?
Let's just let's make this happen.
And isn't that interesting?
Your last statement talked about everything we talked about paying attention to people
being there for people, strength for people, leadership skills.
I mean, all the things we just talked about just in that one sentence.
Yeah, he was the best.
We do.
So remember, do those things for people.
So thank you, Karen.
This has been fun.
We could go on and on and on forever.
We need to finish this up with a walk around the lake.
But thank you, everybody, for listening and checking out the Why Not Today podcast.
We are on Spotify, iTunes, Google, all those things.
And I'm super excited to say that the website is finally ready and done.
So check out the Why Not Today podcast website.
You can see all the episodes there.
We have Courage cards on there.
We have some merchandise.
You get t-shirts and cups and fun stuff.
Check it out and make sure you review, share, like this podcast.
And again, thank you, Karen, for joining me.
It's been fun to catch up with you this way.
Sure is.
Thanks, Leslie.
You're welcome.
Thanks for