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.com. Stay well. Welcome back to Questions You
Didn't Ask. I'm Nyesha Frey and this is it, our
final chapter with Dr. Paul Fleming and Beyond
the Band -Aid, Prevention, Power, and Public
Health Equity. It's been a journey and we're
closing it out strong. Let's get back into it.
You have said a mouthful and it's so rich. One
of the things that you said was related to how
to reallocate that money related to police. And
people immediately do this knee -jerk reaction.
It's like, oh, you're going to get rid of their
jobs. What if we took those same people, re -skilled
them into different types of jobs, increased
their pay because they are underpaid, which creates
stress, which creates aggression and violence,
right? They are undernourished. They don't have
enough sleep. They're not well. Not because they're
bad people, but because the system that we have
them in doesn't allow them to thrive, right?
That's one point. My second observation from
what you're sharing is that government is too
slow and too fast. Government is too slow and
too fast because to put a policy through, it
takes a really long time in an active. But that
decision to poison Flint, Michigan through their
water happened way too fast because they didn't
do that root cause analysis. They didn't do that
economic study. They didn't take the time to
ask the right questions. To back it up even further
in regard to the get your people mantra. A lot
of those people that made those decisions, some
of them are flaming racist, flaming, you know,
anti -environment people, but a lot of them are
well -intentioned, right? They're well -intentioned
people. They are people that if you met them
at the grocery store, if you saw them at a school
play, if you had the chance to be at the same
cookout with them, You'll be like, they're cool
people. But when given the opportunity to make
a decision and break from the status quo, they
might fold. And so when we think about get your
people and how to enact change, it's not just
about where you donate your money. It's not just
about how you listen to community. Well, it is
a lot about how you listen to community, but
it's also what do you do with that information
when the time presents itself? Because I've seen
and heard way too many examples of well -intentioned
people making the decision that leads to terror
and violence. And when I say that, I don't mean
it. You know, a lot of us think about somebody
showing up to your house with a gun or, you know,
unfortunately what happened on 9 -11 and that
thing when we say terrorism. Sometimes terrorism
is a layoff. Sometimes terrorism is a denial
letter. When you're asking for financial support
and help on your light bill. Sometimes terrorism
is, you know, the way that you treat that child
who's cognitively different and has been othered
in that classroom and you're contributing to
that. So we have to, you know, how I was talking
before about my conversation with Lisa and how
I had to challenge myself. To better understand
where she was coming from, where people like
her were coming from. And I realized that I had
some privileges and I had some blind spots. Don't
be too slow and act too fast. You get what I'm
saying? Yeah. I just, you know, I think about,
you know, how people talk are so resistant. to
things like reparations for people of African
descent, you know, who are here in America, whose
ancestors were a part of the transatlantic slave
trade, or people in America who are African descent
that have Black skin or was considered Black,
because it ain't really Black, but you know what
I'm saying, that had to deal with Jim Crow, that
had to deal with the Black codes and all that
kind of stuff, redlining, everything else. They
say, oh, that's too much money. There's no way
that we could support those people. But what
you don't understand is what are you losing?
What are you losing out on? You're losing out
on entrepreneurship. You're losing out on brilliance.
You're losing out on inventors and inventions.
You're losing out on cures. Oh, we can't make
those people rich. Nobody's asking to be rich.
But what you got is too good for me. And that's
not cool. And even worse, I mean, the resistance
in Congress is even to doing a study about reparations.
They can't even get that passed, you know? And
so, yeah, refusal to even consider the question,
which is absurd. So now we're going to dump into
another absurdity before we come back to some
good, happy places and forward thinking and imagination.
I'm ready for it. So one of the reasons why I
said go blue is because I had the good fortune
of being able to do a summer research program
at the University of Michigan. And it was probably
one of my one of my early experiences with formal
research training and being. exposed to what
graduate school would be like for me in the future.
And so that is the reason why University of Michigan
has a soft spot in my heart, even though I'm
wearing my UNC Tar Heel shirt right now. And
both of these institutions, University of Michigan,
UNC, have broken my heart in multiple ways, right?
But the University of Michigan recently cut back
its DEI work, right? And so because you're there
as a professor, And you're doing the type of
research that you're doing that champions diversity,
that champions equity, that champions inclusion
and belonging. And all of those adjectives, intersectionality
and all those things. What has that rollback,
pushback, cutback meant for you, your students
and the communities that you serve? Yeah, it's
been hard to experience. And yeah, I have been
involved in DEI efforts, both formally with kind
of formal roles related to DEI leadership, and
then also informally and research, you know,
work in that area. So what I think is most, what
may be toughest about it is the way that I see
kind of what a lot of our community thinks that
message sends to them so i'm seeing a lot of
or hearing a lot of students of color staff of
color other people of marginalized identities
in our university community that are wondering
or having to ask themselves maybe they don't
want me here maybe i don't belong here maybe
i'm not supposed to be here And that kind of
breaks my heart because I think, you know, part
of the work I try to do, but many, many of my
colleagues is we are trying to create a space
for all where we can all kind of come together.
I mean, at least in my school of public health
around issues of public health in my department
around issues of health equity. Right. And so
the fact that people are having. Well, and not
to say that this is the first time anyone's ever
questioned. if they belong at a university, especially
among people of color, that's something that's
been ongoing. So I'm not saying that, but it's
more widespread now. I think it's prompted a
lot of kind of questions in that sense. I think
the other thing I'll say is it's interesting
also talking with some students because the generation
of students I'm working with right now, they
didn't really experience school before DEI, before
DEI came on the scene. So there's some idea that,
you know, it's impossible to do equity work if
a DEI office doesn't exist. I think, you know,
this is sort of a lesson for us all in this moment
of we can keep doing the work. The work has to
be done. We sometimes have to get more creative.
We sometimes have to do it a little bit differently.
We sometimes have to do it a little bit slower.
We sometimes have to do it with fewer dollars,
no dollars at all. But the push to create communities
and systems based on that ethos of sharing, based
on that ethos where we all see each other as
human, based on that ethos where we all belong
and are welcoming, that is going to persist.
And I don't think that this administration or
university administration can take that away
from us. They are causing harm for sure. They
are setting back this work for sure. But I don't
want to let anybody frame it as, you know, they're
eliminating it or they've gotten rid, it's gone.
it's not. We have to push the work forward in
the ways that we can. So it's definitely had
an impact at the university, but I personally
am just trying to focus on, well, what can we
do? What can we move forward? What resources
do we have? And how do we use those to the maximum,
you know, potential? Yeah. And that is, you know,
continues to be consistent in what you say about
yourself, your research and your book, especially
is that, and I think that you're right. And a
lot of people have kind of taken that attitude.
I know in the Black community, I heard a lot
of people saying, hey, we've been here before.
You know, we've had to create a way out of no
way. And we know how to do that. That is one
of our specialties. We don't like it. We wish
it wasn't that hard. It shouldn't be that hard.
you know folks are out here cutting their nose
despite their face by cutting back on dei and
also recognizing that diversity equity inclusion
in those those kind of buzzwords just was an
evolution of what these different offices were
from different eras, right? So we talked about
affirmative action in one case, but then that
got a bad name and people started associating
it with quotas, right? And so then you started
talking about, okay, well, we need to have a
minority cultural center of excellence or something
of that sort, where people of color and non -white
people or non -privileged people could come and
be seen. and receive support or get scholarships
or what have you, you know, having these like
non -traditional students and spaces for them
to thrive and resources to help them, you know,
receive the education that they needed and have
unique supports to help them in ways that made
sense for their lives. So we've oftentimes had
to rebrand with the times, right? And so what
I hear you saying is that, you know, we're going
to have to look for different Partners, we're
going to have to repackage and rebrand again.
And in some cases, yes, it's going to hurt and
we'll have to do it for less money and sometimes
no money. It's not right. It's not our preference.
But staying home and doing nothing, that ain't
working either. Right. You know, it's kind of
like what we were saying earlier of there. you
know, some of these universities are essentially
smashing this infrastructure. That's not what
we would choose for sure. But what can we create
in its wake, right? What can we create? What
can we build? And so there is some opportunity
there. And, you know, as somebody who was a part
of DEI, different DEI work, you know, I'm the
first to say, like, it wasn't, We all had our
critiques of it. Right. And so now this is an
opportunity to evolve it in different ways. But
yeah, am I pissed that they're cutting resources
and in sending this messaging or kind of pulling
back from what we thought were values that these
institutions held? Although I'm a little skeptical
that any institutions hold values, to be honest,
a lot of. just following what's going to be best
for their bottom line. That's what institutions
are designed to do oftentimes, right? It's the
people within them that act, you know, in human
ways or not. The institution isn't going to be
the human. An institution is not human. We as
the people within them have to create the humanness
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going. We do. We do. And just to be real honest
and speak from my own experience as well, is
that, you know, we do have to recognize that
these institutions, like you said, are made up
of people. People that create and enforce rules,
that make decisions about which rules are going
to be enforced, which rules are not. And so I
think that gets back to the get your people kind
of hashtag in that depending where there creates,
there's this like schism in institutions, right?
Where if you have the privilege to be there,
in order to be in a position of power, there's
a certain amount of cooperation you have to exhibit.
When you get in that position of power and you
have cooperated, what have you become complicit
in? And if you haven't fully cooperated, but
you have picked your battles well, right, and
still been able to move up, because I will not
say that everyone at the top is complicit. I
will say that. Those who are true allies at the
top have learned how to pick their battles and
they know how to play the politics really well.
But unfortunately, like you said, there's oftentimes
too few of them because if there's too many,
then the whole institution has to change. And
so what you find is that there becomes a weeding
out system so that you have just enough freedom
fighters and truth sayers at the table. To balance
and maybe create the optics of integrity. Or
the optics of liberalism and freedom. But those
that pull the strings and levers and actually
hold the power, they will roll whichever direction.
They need to roll to get that bottom line and
get those perks and get those bonuses and get,
you know. And so then we we run back into this
capitalist mindset of hoarding. And I think what
happens, especially in higher education institutions
like the University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill and the University of Michigan and Harvard
and my other institution of higher learning,
Columbia University. Is that, you know, they
have these, we have these perceptions of them
as being these bastions of knowledge, of being
purveyors of truth, of being halls and doorways
of opportunity. And then you get in them and
you realize this is a corporation. And now you
are no longer in no sense. And now you are dealing
with your senses. And now you're having to figure
out to your point about what some of your colleagues
of color's experience is. What is my place? Do
I have a place here? Is this truly who I am?
Does this satisfy where I'm going and what I
aspire to be? And some people are able to carve
out that niche in that space and be unbothered.
or be less bothered, right, and still get the
work done. And I think that that Swiss cheese
of, you know, having these safe spaces, because
that's one of the reasons why I can still hold
my head high and say that I'm a UNC grad, is
because I had so many people who, despite the
challenges that I was up against, They made safe
spaces for me. And I will say loud and clear
that Paul Fleming was one of those safe spaces
and that our entire cohort was one of those safe
spaces. And I'm thankful for that because otherwise
it would have been a totally different experience
and a lot more traumatic. And so what I'll say
too, is that we have to think about, you know,
as we think about imagine doing better. What
would it look like if we actually rewarded leaders
that focus on prevention thinking instead of
punishment? One of the things I think when I
think about leaders, like you said, they have
to pick their battles. They have to play politics,
all of that. And when you think about leaders
who have led transformative change. What they're
not doing is just sort of spontaneously saying,
we're going to do this or making a change on
their own. What they're doing is they're getting
their people, all different kinds of people in
this case. Yes. But they are through their relationships.
They are bringing people on board. They are sowing
the seeds for change. Before they make that announcement,
before they push people in that direction, they've
already laid some foundation and groundwork for
it, right? So part of the essential skill set
here is that ability to build relationships and
sway people in a way and bring them over to your
way of thinking. And the reality is that sometimes
that takes time. Like on the one hand, I think
your question about like leaders taking a prevention
mindset, I would love to see more of it. But
also what leaders need to be doing is they need
to be teaching their constituents or the people
that they're leading about what a prevention
mindset. Why is this so useful for us? Where
could this get us as a country? Where could this
get us as a society? Get people excited about
that vision. And then you take people there.
Then you say, all right, now everyone's on board.
Let's go there. And that's kind of some of the
principles of public health, right? Like when
we build partnerships, the first step is building
trust across it. We get to know each other. What
are people's motivations? What do people need?
What do they want? And then we come up with a
collective idea of where we want to go together.
It's much easier to lead people there, right?
And so I think for leaders at our institutions,
but also leaders throughout our country, this
prevention mindset can be, you know, language
and a tool that is used to bring people along
to this vision, right? Prompting people to imagine.
When was the last time our politicians asked
us to imagine? right a lot of times politicians
are just out there spouting what they want you
know when you see some of these really successful
politicians they are listening and they are building
they are kind of building a tapestry building
a quilt based on what they're hearing from all
their people because they're building something
beautiful from the collective not just from their
own their own ideas i agree I agree. I think
that's a big part of what made Barack Obama's,
especially his first campaign, so successful.
Yeah, absolutely. He was encouraging us to dream.
Yeah. And he was also very effective at building
and reflecting his coalition, his diverse coalition.
Yeah. So not just having the coalition and being
like, ain't they great? Look, but doing your
own thing. But actually reflecting that and,
you know, some people still have the right to,
you know, analyze and maybe even criticize his
actual presidency, both terms, what have you.
And like you said, we're human. Nobody's perfect.
You know, when he did wrong, he did wrong. But
I tell you, of the things that I can observe
or that I know of, there was a lot more good
than there was bad. Just in my personal opinion.
Yeah. Well, yeah. And, you know, hope and change.
Like the foundation was around building a better
society. Right. And actually doing the work to
get there. What we're seeing out of a lot of
politicians right now, particularly the administration,
is a lot of negativity. There is some language
around, you know. like making a better future
but it is it's all blaming and it's all tearing
down what we need to get to is what do we want
to build what do we want to create what do we
want to what do we want people to have And we're
just so far from that conversation right now,
kind of at a national political level. But I
think we do see some bright spots in local level
and other things, bright spots of people who
are leading and really getting us closer to a
vision of change. So as we're developing this
vision as individuals and as a collective, and
we're kind of coming to a close of our time together.
What's one question you want our listeners to
ask themselves after listening to this conversation?
And take your time. I love that question. And
I'm going to ask you to answer that question
too. I think the thing I would ask listeners
is, what do you see? What do you hear? What do
you feel when you imagine the world that you
wish we lived in? Because it's that starting
place. It's using all your senses to actually
try to put yourself in that world. Because once
we have the vision for it, just like Robin D
.G. Kelly said, the map to the new world is in
that imagination. So if we can actually articulate
it and see it and feel it, we'll have a better
idea of how to get there. So one thing that just
came to me, I love the way that you turn this
question back around for me. I love that. Thank
you. Because something that I've been meditating
on quite a bit and that I'm looking at right
now physically in my space is a reminder. And
some of my listeners out there who I've shared
this with will be like, oh my gosh, because I've
been saying this a lot. And that is the place
in which I'll fit into will not exist until I
make it, which is by James Baldwin. And so it's
very powerful. And so I want you to ask yourself,
what is that place? Where is that place? And
how do we get there together? So that is my question
for my audience. The place in which I'll fit
into will not exist until I make it. So what
is that place? Where is that place? And how do
we get there together? Before we leave, we've
got some other important questions. How can people
support your work and pre -order your book, Imagine
Doing Better? Thank you for asking that question.
Well, you can pre -order on places like Bookshop
or Amazon. So it should be available at any kind
of online retailer and it's called Imagine Doing
Better. So yeah, that's one way you can pre -order.
And then, you know, more broadly, if you are
interested in the ideas that I've shared here
on this podcast, or if you do read the book and
enjoy it, you know, tell a friend. That's maybe
one of the things you do with your people is
you give them the book and say, let's imagine
doing better together. And I'd be happy to join
whatever group your listeners have and talk about
some of these ideas with your group as well.
That's awesome. And I will encourage people to
visit Paul Fleming's website and join his newsletter.
He drops gems all the time. I think your newsletter
actually helped us reconnect in some ways on
a deeper level because I just enjoyed those nuggets
that you were sharing routinely and was so happy
to receive the newsletter because it provided
a lot of resources, thought practices, and just
insights that just really touched me and helped
move me. And motivate me in a special way. So
I'm going to be sharing Paul's website so that
you can check out his newsletter, learn more
about him. And hopefully you'll be pre -ordering
that book and getting your copy. Imagine doing
better in your mailbox or at your local bookshop
very soon. Paul, it is a pleasure as usual. I
am so happy that we had a chance to be on this
show together today. Thank you so much for your
time. Yeah, thank you for the wonderful conversation.
More next time on Questions You Didn't Ask.