WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.279 How would education change if we treated educator 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:06.080 wellness as essential to student achievement? 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.439 At Professional Inspiration, we believe educator 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:12.820 and student wellness isn't optional. It's foundational. 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:16.719 Our online courses, nationally accredited, are 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.460 designed to inspire and empower and inform educators 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:23.679 because when educators are well, students thrive. 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:27.480 Explore our courses at professional -inspiration 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:41.409 .com. Stay well. Welcome back to Questions You 00:00:41.409 --> 00:00:44.789 Didn't Ask. I'm Nyesha Frey and this is it, our 00:00:44.789 --> 00:00:47.909 final chapter with Dr. Paul Fleming and Beyond 00:00:47.909 --> 00:00:50.850 the Band -Aid, Prevention, Power, and Public 00:00:50.850 --> 00:00:53.490 Health Equity. It's been a journey and we're 00:00:53.490 --> 00:00:56.189 closing it out strong. Let's get back into it. 00:00:56.270 --> 00:01:00.049 You have said a mouthful and it's so rich. One 00:01:00.049 --> 00:01:03.159 of the things that you said was related to how 00:01:03.159 --> 00:01:06.719 to reallocate that money related to police. And 00:01:06.719 --> 00:01:09.480 people immediately do this knee -jerk reaction. 00:01:09.519 --> 00:01:11.200 It's like, oh, you're going to get rid of their 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.540 jobs. What if we took those same people, re -skilled 00:01:15.540 --> 00:01:18.159 them into different types of jobs, increased 00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:20.900 their pay because they are underpaid, which creates 00:01:20.900 --> 00:01:24.299 stress, which creates aggression and violence, 00:01:24.640 --> 00:01:27.519 right? They are undernourished. They don't have 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:31.439 enough sleep. They're not well. Not because they're 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:35.079 bad people, but because the system that we have 00:01:35.079 --> 00:01:38.060 them in doesn't allow them to thrive, right? 00:01:39.099 --> 00:01:44.400 That's one point. My second observation from 00:01:44.400 --> 00:01:47.959 what you're sharing is that government is too 00:01:47.959 --> 00:01:52.879 slow and too fast. Government is too slow and 00:01:52.879 --> 00:01:56.180 too fast because to put a policy through, it 00:01:56.180 --> 00:01:59.750 takes a really long time in an active. But that 00:01:59.750 --> 00:02:06.349 decision to poison Flint, Michigan through their 00:02:06.349 --> 00:02:10.650 water happened way too fast because they didn't 00:02:10.650 --> 00:02:14.870 do that root cause analysis. They didn't do that 00:02:14.870 --> 00:02:18.550 economic study. They didn't take the time to 00:02:18.550 --> 00:02:23.810 ask the right questions. To back it up even further 00:02:23.810 --> 00:02:28.620 in regard to the get your people mantra. A lot 00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:31.960 of those people that made those decisions, some 00:02:31.960 --> 00:02:37.360 of them are flaming racist, flaming, you know, 00:02:37.379 --> 00:02:41.259 anti -environment people, but a lot of them are 00:02:41.259 --> 00:02:45.319 well -intentioned, right? They're well -intentioned 00:02:45.319 --> 00:02:47.620 people. They are people that if you met them 00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:52.319 at the grocery store, if you saw them at a school 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:55.960 play, if you had the chance to be at the same 00:02:55.960 --> 00:02:58.560 cookout with them, You'll be like, they're cool 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:03.080 people. But when given the opportunity to make 00:03:03.080 --> 00:03:05.939 a decision and break from the status quo, they 00:03:05.939 --> 00:03:10.400 might fold. And so when we think about get your 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:12.599 people and how to enact change, it's not just 00:03:12.599 --> 00:03:16.039 about where you donate your money. It's not just 00:03:16.039 --> 00:03:18.819 about how you listen to community. Well, it is 00:03:18.819 --> 00:03:21.219 a lot about how you listen to community, but 00:03:21.219 --> 00:03:23.060 it's also what do you do with that information 00:03:23.060 --> 00:03:26.860 when the time presents itself? Because I've seen 00:03:26.860 --> 00:03:30.919 and heard way too many examples of well -intentioned 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:35.159 people making the decision that leads to terror 00:03:35.159 --> 00:03:37.939 and violence. And when I say that, I don't mean 00:03:37.939 --> 00:03:40.280 it. You know, a lot of us think about somebody 00:03:40.280 --> 00:03:42.740 showing up to your house with a gun or, you know, 00:03:42.740 --> 00:03:45.780 unfortunately what happened on 9 -11 and that 00:03:45.780 --> 00:03:48.159 thing when we say terrorism. Sometimes terrorism 00:03:48.159 --> 00:03:53.939 is a layoff. Sometimes terrorism is a denial 00:03:53.939 --> 00:03:57.610 letter. When you're asking for financial support 00:03:57.610 --> 00:04:02.629 and help on your light bill. Sometimes terrorism 00:04:02.629 --> 00:04:06.889 is, you know, the way that you treat that child 00:04:06.889 --> 00:04:11.030 who's cognitively different and has been othered 00:04:11.030 --> 00:04:13.090 in that classroom and you're contributing to 00:04:13.090 --> 00:04:18.230 that. So we have to, you know, how I was talking 00:04:18.230 --> 00:04:21.050 before about my conversation with Lisa and how 00:04:21.050 --> 00:04:24.899 I had to challenge myself. To better understand 00:04:24.899 --> 00:04:29.019 where she was coming from, where people like 00:04:29.019 --> 00:04:33.240 her were coming from. And I realized that I had 00:04:33.240 --> 00:04:37.879 some privileges and I had some blind spots. Don't 00:04:37.879 --> 00:04:43.199 be too slow and act too fast. You get what I'm 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.879 saying? Yeah. I just, you know, I think about, 00:04:46.899 --> 00:04:51.459 you know, how people talk are so resistant. to 00:04:51.459 --> 00:04:53.939 things like reparations for people of African 00:04:53.939 --> 00:04:56.600 descent, you know, who are here in America, whose 00:04:56.600 --> 00:04:59.079 ancestors were a part of the transatlantic slave 00:04:59.079 --> 00:05:03.480 trade, or people in America who are African descent 00:05:03.480 --> 00:05:06.519 that have Black skin or was considered Black, 00:05:06.660 --> 00:05:08.240 because it ain't really Black, but you know what 00:05:08.240 --> 00:05:12.740 I'm saying, that had to deal with Jim Crow, that 00:05:12.740 --> 00:05:16.259 had to deal with the Black codes and all that 00:05:16.259 --> 00:05:20.509 kind of stuff, redlining, everything else. They 00:05:20.509 --> 00:05:22.490 say, oh, that's too much money. There's no way 00:05:22.490 --> 00:05:25.370 that we could support those people. But what 00:05:25.370 --> 00:05:27.449 you don't understand is what are you losing? 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:29.509 What are you losing out on? You're losing out 00:05:29.509 --> 00:05:32.209 on entrepreneurship. You're losing out on brilliance. 00:05:32.269 --> 00:05:34.790 You're losing out on inventors and inventions. 00:05:35.009 --> 00:05:39.850 You're losing out on cures. Oh, we can't make 00:05:39.850 --> 00:05:42.889 those people rich. Nobody's asking to be rich. 00:05:44.889 --> 00:05:50.850 But what you got is too good for me. And that's 00:05:50.850 --> 00:05:54.209 not cool. And even worse, I mean, the resistance 00:05:54.209 --> 00:05:58.990 in Congress is even to doing a study about reparations. 00:05:58.990 --> 00:06:01.089 They can't even get that passed, you know? And 00:06:01.089 --> 00:06:04.870 so, yeah, refusal to even consider the question, 00:06:04.990 --> 00:06:12.589 which is absurd. So now we're going to dump into 00:06:12.589 --> 00:06:15.009 another absurdity before we come back to some 00:06:15.009 --> 00:06:19.449 good, happy places and forward thinking and imagination. 00:06:20.060 --> 00:06:25.540 I'm ready for it. So one of the reasons why I 00:06:25.540 --> 00:06:28.319 said go blue is because I had the good fortune 00:06:28.319 --> 00:06:30.379 of being able to do a summer research program 00:06:30.379 --> 00:06:32.279 at the University of Michigan. And it was probably 00:06:32.279 --> 00:06:36.860 one of my one of my early experiences with formal 00:06:36.860 --> 00:06:41.100 research training and being. exposed to what 00:06:41.100 --> 00:06:43.420 graduate school would be like for me in the future. 00:06:43.540 --> 00:06:45.540 And so that is the reason why University of Michigan 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:48.259 has a soft spot in my heart, even though I'm 00:06:48.259 --> 00:06:50.939 wearing my UNC Tar Heel shirt right now. And 00:06:50.939 --> 00:06:54.160 both of these institutions, University of Michigan, 00:06:54.459 --> 00:06:58.319 UNC, have broken my heart in multiple ways, right? 00:06:58.459 --> 00:07:01.500 But the University of Michigan recently cut back 00:07:01.500 --> 00:07:06.879 its DEI work, right? And so because you're there 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:10.259 as a professor, And you're doing the type of 00:07:10.259 --> 00:07:13.560 research that you're doing that champions diversity, 00:07:13.959 --> 00:07:16.480 that champions equity, that champions inclusion 00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:21.579 and belonging. And all of those adjectives, intersectionality 00:07:21.579 --> 00:07:26.220 and all those things. What has that rollback, 00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:33.620 pushback, cutback meant for you, your students 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:36.889 and the communities that you serve? Yeah, it's 00:07:36.889 --> 00:07:39.610 been hard to experience. And yeah, I have been 00:07:39.610 --> 00:07:45.649 involved in DEI efforts, both formally with kind 00:07:45.649 --> 00:07:50.529 of formal roles related to DEI leadership, and 00:07:50.529 --> 00:07:53.370 then also informally and research, you know, 00:07:53.370 --> 00:07:58.170 work in that area. So what I think is most, what 00:07:58.170 --> 00:08:02.230 may be toughest about it is the way that I see 00:08:02.970 --> 00:08:05.889 kind of what a lot of our community thinks that 00:08:05.889 --> 00:08:09.250 message sends to them so i'm seeing a lot of 00:08:09.250 --> 00:08:13.910 or hearing a lot of students of color staff of 00:08:13.910 --> 00:08:17.310 color other people of marginalized identities 00:08:17.310 --> 00:08:22.089 in our university community that are wondering 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:25.670 or having to ask themselves maybe they don't 00:08:25.670 --> 00:08:29.149 want me here maybe i don't belong here maybe 00:08:29.149 --> 00:08:32.549 i'm not supposed to be here And that kind of 00:08:32.549 --> 00:08:35.090 breaks my heart because I think, you know, part 00:08:35.090 --> 00:08:38.509 of the work I try to do, but many, many of my 00:08:38.509 --> 00:08:42.929 colleagues is we are trying to create a space 00:08:42.929 --> 00:08:47.590 for all where we can all kind of come together. 00:08:48.029 --> 00:08:50.070 I mean, at least in my school of public health 00:08:50.070 --> 00:08:52.309 around issues of public health in my department 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:55.129 around issues of health equity. Right. And so 00:08:55.129 --> 00:08:58.789 the fact that people are having. Well, and not 00:08:58.789 --> 00:09:00.529 to say that this is the first time anyone's ever 00:09:00.529 --> 00:09:03.259 questioned. if they belong at a university, especially 00:09:03.259 --> 00:09:05.299 among people of color, that's something that's 00:09:05.299 --> 00:09:07.679 been ongoing. So I'm not saying that, but it's 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:10.899 more widespread now. I think it's prompted a 00:09:10.899 --> 00:09:14.960 lot of kind of questions in that sense. I think 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:17.899 the other thing I'll say is it's interesting 00:09:17.899 --> 00:09:22.159 also talking with some students because the generation 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:25.200 of students I'm working with right now, they 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:29.039 didn't really experience school before DEI, before 00:09:29.039 --> 00:09:36.080 DEI came on the scene. So there's some idea that, 00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:39.740 you know, it's impossible to do equity work if 00:09:39.740 --> 00:09:43.259 a DEI office doesn't exist. I think, you know, 00:09:43.279 --> 00:09:45.960 this is sort of a lesson for us all in this moment 00:09:45.960 --> 00:09:52.159 of we can keep doing the work. The work has to 00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:56.240 be done. We sometimes have to get more creative. 00:09:57.159 --> 00:09:59.259 We sometimes have to do it a little bit differently. 00:09:59.340 --> 00:10:01.179 We sometimes have to do it a little bit slower. 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:04.159 We sometimes have to do it with fewer dollars, 00:10:04.440 --> 00:10:14.299 no dollars at all. But the push to create communities 00:10:14.299 --> 00:10:19.659 and systems based on that ethos of sharing, based 00:10:19.659 --> 00:10:21.960 on that ethos where we all see each other as 00:10:21.960 --> 00:10:26.679 human, based on that ethos where we all belong 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.419 and are welcoming, that is going to persist. 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:35.139 And I don't think that this administration or 00:10:35.139 --> 00:10:38.200 university administration can take that away 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:41.240 from us. They are causing harm for sure. They 00:10:41.240 --> 00:10:46.259 are setting back this work for sure. But I don't 00:10:46.259 --> 00:10:49.100 want to let anybody frame it as, you know, they're 00:10:49.100 --> 00:10:52.440 eliminating it or they've gotten rid, it's gone. 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:56.580 it's not. We have to push the work forward in 00:10:56.580 --> 00:10:59.259 the ways that we can. So it's definitely had 00:10:59.259 --> 00:11:03.240 an impact at the university, but I personally 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:06.440 am just trying to focus on, well, what can we 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:08.980 do? What can we move forward? What resources 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:12.159 do we have? And how do we use those to the maximum, 00:11:12.279 --> 00:11:18.019 you know, potential? Yeah. And that is, you know, 00:11:19.150 --> 00:11:21.809 continues to be consistent in what you say about 00:11:21.809 --> 00:11:24.169 yourself, your research and your book, especially 00:11:24.169 --> 00:11:27.289 is that, and I think that you're right. And a 00:11:27.289 --> 00:11:30.389 lot of people have kind of taken that attitude. 00:11:30.549 --> 00:11:32.289 I know in the Black community, I heard a lot 00:11:32.289 --> 00:11:34.029 of people saying, hey, we've been here before. 00:11:34.210 --> 00:11:37.649 You know, we've had to create a way out of no 00:11:37.649 --> 00:11:40.269 way. And we know how to do that. That is one 00:11:40.269 --> 00:11:44.029 of our specialties. We don't like it. We wish 00:11:44.029 --> 00:11:47.049 it wasn't that hard. It shouldn't be that hard. 00:11:47.549 --> 00:11:49.629 you know folks are out here cutting their nose 00:11:49.629 --> 00:11:54.509 despite their face by cutting back on dei and 00:11:54.509 --> 00:11:57.830 also recognizing that diversity equity inclusion 00:11:57.830 --> 00:12:01.649 in those those kind of buzzwords just was an 00:12:01.649 --> 00:12:05.190 evolution of what these different offices were 00:12:05.190 --> 00:12:08.629 from different eras, right? So we talked about 00:12:08.629 --> 00:12:11.230 affirmative action in one case, but then that 00:12:11.230 --> 00:12:13.330 got a bad name and people started associating 00:12:13.330 --> 00:12:16.309 it with quotas, right? And so then you started 00:12:16.309 --> 00:12:19.090 talking about, okay, well, we need to have a 00:12:19.090 --> 00:12:23.529 minority cultural center of excellence or something 00:12:23.529 --> 00:12:26.730 of that sort, where people of color and non -white 00:12:26.730 --> 00:12:29.129 people or non -privileged people could come and 00:12:29.129 --> 00:12:33.149 be seen. and receive support or get scholarships 00:12:33.149 --> 00:12:36.110 or what have you, you know, having these like 00:12:36.110 --> 00:12:39.129 non -traditional students and spaces for them 00:12:39.129 --> 00:12:42.690 to thrive and resources to help them, you know, 00:12:42.690 --> 00:12:46.889 receive the education that they needed and have 00:12:46.889 --> 00:12:50.070 unique supports to help them in ways that made 00:12:50.070 --> 00:12:53.029 sense for their lives. So we've oftentimes had 00:12:53.029 --> 00:12:56.450 to rebrand with the times, right? And so what 00:12:56.450 --> 00:12:58.409 I hear you saying is that, you know, we're going 00:12:58.409 --> 00:13:01.570 to have to look for different Partners, we're 00:13:01.570 --> 00:13:04.730 going to have to repackage and rebrand again. 00:13:05.330 --> 00:13:07.929 And in some cases, yes, it's going to hurt and 00:13:07.929 --> 00:13:10.629 we'll have to do it for less money and sometimes 00:13:10.629 --> 00:13:15.110 no money. It's not right. It's not our preference. 00:13:15.629 --> 00:13:20.610 But staying home and doing nothing, that ain't 00:13:20.610 --> 00:13:24.629 working either. Right. You know, it's kind of 00:13:24.629 --> 00:13:28.409 like what we were saying earlier of there. you 00:13:28.409 --> 00:13:30.830 know, some of these universities are essentially 00:13:30.830 --> 00:13:36.509 smashing this infrastructure. That's not what 00:13:36.509 --> 00:13:41.190 we would choose for sure. But what can we create 00:13:41.190 --> 00:13:43.929 in its wake, right? What can we create? What 00:13:43.929 --> 00:13:48.049 can we build? And so there is some opportunity 00:13:48.049 --> 00:13:52.309 there. And, you know, as somebody who was a part 00:13:52.309 --> 00:13:55.149 of DEI, different DEI work, you know, I'm the 00:13:55.149 --> 00:13:59.279 first to say, like, it wasn't, We all had our 00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:01.899 critiques of it. Right. And so now this is an 00:14:01.899 --> 00:14:07.039 opportunity to evolve it in different ways. But 00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:09.600 yeah, am I pissed that they're cutting resources 00:14:09.600 --> 00:14:14.919 and in sending this messaging or kind of pulling 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.299 back from what we thought were values that these 00:14:18.299 --> 00:14:21.139 institutions held? Although I'm a little skeptical 00:14:21.139 --> 00:14:24.039 that any institutions hold values, to be honest, 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:27.509 a lot of. just following what's going to be best 00:14:27.509 --> 00:14:29.710 for their bottom line. That's what institutions 00:14:29.710 --> 00:14:32.970 are designed to do oftentimes, right? It's the 00:14:32.970 --> 00:14:37.950 people within them that act, you know, in human 00:14:37.950 --> 00:14:40.830 ways or not. The institution isn't going to be 00:14:40.830 --> 00:14:43.769 the human. An institution is not human. We as 00:14:43.769 --> 00:14:47.750 the people within them have to create the humanness 00:14:47.750 --> 00:14:50.690 within them. If you're enjoying the show as much 00:14:50.690 --> 00:14:53.690 as we love creating it. Consider showing your 00:14:53.690 --> 00:14:58.669 support by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit buymeacoffee 00:14:58.669 --> 00:15:05.169 .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:15:05.169 --> 00:15:12.070 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. All one word. 00:15:12.169 --> 00:15:16.870 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:15:16.870 --> 00:15:20.009 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:15:20.009 --> 00:15:23.240 the high quality content. You've come to expect 00:15:23.240 --> 00:15:26.500 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you for 00:15:26.500 --> 00:15:29.120 your continued support. And let's keep the conversation 00:15:29.120 --> 00:15:33.879 going. We do. We do. And just to be real honest 00:15:33.879 --> 00:15:37.779 and speak from my own experience as well, is 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:40.799 that, you know, we do have to recognize that 00:15:40.799 --> 00:15:42.700 these institutions, like you said, are made up 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:46.039 of people. People that create and enforce rules, 00:15:46.200 --> 00:15:48.340 that make decisions about which rules are going 00:15:48.340 --> 00:15:51.639 to be enforced, which rules are not. And so I 00:15:51.639 --> 00:15:53.700 think that gets back to the get your people kind 00:15:53.700 --> 00:15:59.740 of hashtag in that depending where there creates, 00:15:59.860 --> 00:16:04.039 there's this like schism in institutions, right? 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:08.360 Where if you have the privilege to be there, 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:14.159 in order to be in a position of power, there's 00:16:14.159 --> 00:16:19.700 a certain amount of cooperation you have to exhibit. 00:16:21.480 --> 00:16:25.720 When you get in that position of power and you 00:16:25.720 --> 00:16:29.299 have cooperated, what have you become complicit 00:16:29.299 --> 00:16:34.620 in? And if you haven't fully cooperated, but 00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:38.019 you have picked your battles well, right, and 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:40.700 still been able to move up, because I will not 00:16:40.700 --> 00:16:44.120 say that everyone at the top is complicit. I 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.000 will say that. Those who are true allies at the 00:16:47.000 --> 00:16:49.580 top have learned how to pick their battles and 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:52.720 they know how to play the politics really well. 00:16:53.139 --> 00:16:56.100 But unfortunately, like you said, there's oftentimes 00:16:56.100 --> 00:16:58.460 too few of them because if there's too many, 00:16:58.500 --> 00:17:01.879 then the whole institution has to change. And 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.119 so what you find is that there becomes a weeding 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:10.259 out system so that you have just enough freedom 00:17:10.259 --> 00:17:14.609 fighters and truth sayers at the table. To balance 00:17:14.609 --> 00:17:23.150 and maybe create the optics of integrity. Or 00:17:23.150 --> 00:17:30.589 the optics of liberalism and freedom. But those 00:17:30.589 --> 00:17:34.630 that pull the strings and levers and actually 00:17:34.630 --> 00:17:39.309 hold the power, they will roll whichever direction. 00:17:40.299 --> 00:17:43.960 They need to roll to get that bottom line and 00:17:43.960 --> 00:17:47.019 get those perks and get those bonuses and get, 00:17:47.099 --> 00:17:49.880 you know. And so then we we run back into this 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:54.400 capitalist mindset of hoarding. And I think what 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:56.559 happens, especially in higher education institutions 00:17:56.559 --> 00:17:58.960 like the University of North Carolina at Chapel 00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:01.240 Hill and the University of Michigan and Harvard 00:18:01.240 --> 00:18:04.220 and my other institution of higher learning, 00:18:04.259 --> 00:18:07.349 Columbia University. Is that, you know, they 00:18:07.349 --> 00:18:09.950 have these, we have these perceptions of them 00:18:09.950 --> 00:18:13.089 as being these bastions of knowledge, of being 00:18:13.089 --> 00:18:17.890 purveyors of truth, of being halls and doorways 00:18:17.890 --> 00:18:21.890 of opportunity. And then you get in them and 00:18:21.890 --> 00:18:26.289 you realize this is a corporation. And now you 00:18:26.289 --> 00:18:31.170 are no longer in no sense. And now you are dealing 00:18:31.170 --> 00:18:37.220 with your senses. And now you're having to figure 00:18:37.220 --> 00:18:42.680 out to your point about what some of your colleagues 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:45.359 of color's experience is. What is my place? Do 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:48.720 I have a place here? Is this truly who I am? 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:53.380 Does this satisfy where I'm going and what I 00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:56.980 aspire to be? And some people are able to carve 00:18:56.980 --> 00:19:00.819 out that niche in that space and be unbothered. 00:19:01.019 --> 00:19:03.599 or be less bothered, right, and still get the 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:06.539 work done. And I think that that Swiss cheese 00:19:06.539 --> 00:19:10.960 of, you know, having these safe spaces, because 00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:12.660 that's one of the reasons why I can still hold 00:19:12.660 --> 00:19:15.819 my head high and say that I'm a UNC grad, is 00:19:15.819 --> 00:19:21.579 because I had so many people who, despite the 00:19:21.579 --> 00:19:25.259 challenges that I was up against, They made safe 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:27.460 spaces for me. And I will say loud and clear 00:19:27.460 --> 00:19:29.859 that Paul Fleming was one of those safe spaces 00:19:29.859 --> 00:19:34.059 and that our entire cohort was one of those safe 00:19:34.059 --> 00:19:38.240 spaces. And I'm thankful for that because otherwise 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:41.559 it would have been a totally different experience 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:46.119 and a lot more traumatic. And so what I'll say 00:19:46.119 --> 00:19:49.079 too, is that we have to think about, you know, 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:53.160 as we think about imagine doing better. What 00:19:53.160 --> 00:19:55.779 would it look like if we actually rewarded leaders 00:19:55.779 --> 00:20:00.359 that focus on prevention thinking instead of 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:03.980 punishment? One of the things I think when I 00:20:03.980 --> 00:20:08.400 think about leaders, like you said, they have 00:20:08.400 --> 00:20:12.480 to pick their battles. They have to play politics, 00:20:12.720 --> 00:20:15.759 all of that. And when you think about leaders 00:20:15.759 --> 00:20:22.299 who have led transformative change. What they're 00:20:22.299 --> 00:20:27.619 not doing is just sort of spontaneously saying, 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:33.539 we're going to do this or making a change on 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:36.740 their own. What they're doing is they're getting 00:20:36.740 --> 00:20:41.660 their people, all different kinds of people in 00:20:41.660 --> 00:20:45.460 this case. Yes. But they are through their relationships. 00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:49.220 They are bringing people on board. They are sowing 00:20:49.220 --> 00:20:53.299 the seeds for change. Before they make that announcement, 00:20:53.480 --> 00:20:58.539 before they push people in that direction, they've 00:20:58.539 --> 00:21:01.680 already laid some foundation and groundwork for 00:21:01.680 --> 00:21:04.839 it, right? So part of the essential skill set 00:21:04.839 --> 00:21:11.720 here is that ability to build relationships and 00:21:11.720 --> 00:21:15.299 sway people in a way and bring them over to your 00:21:15.299 --> 00:21:18.019 way of thinking. And the reality is that sometimes 00:21:18.019 --> 00:21:23.500 that takes time. Like on the one hand, I think 00:21:23.500 --> 00:21:27.180 your question about like leaders taking a prevention 00:21:27.180 --> 00:21:31.279 mindset, I would love to see more of it. But 00:21:31.279 --> 00:21:35.400 also what leaders need to be doing is they need 00:21:35.400 --> 00:21:38.619 to be teaching their constituents or the people 00:21:38.619 --> 00:21:41.099 that they're leading about what a prevention 00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:44.200 mindset. Why is this so useful for us? Where 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:46.440 could this get us as a country? Where could this 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:49.980 get us as a society? Get people excited about 00:21:49.980 --> 00:21:52.619 that vision. And then you take people there. 00:21:52.779 --> 00:21:54.880 Then you say, all right, now everyone's on board. 00:21:54.980 --> 00:21:57.240 Let's go there. And that's kind of some of the 00:21:57.240 --> 00:21:59.579 principles of public health, right? Like when 00:21:59.579 --> 00:22:03.579 we build partnerships, the first step is building 00:22:03.579 --> 00:22:05.559 trust across it. We get to know each other. What 00:22:05.559 --> 00:22:09.039 are people's motivations? What do people need? 00:22:09.240 --> 00:22:13.000 What do they want? And then we come up with a 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:15.819 collective idea of where we want to go together. 00:22:16.319 --> 00:22:18.940 It's much easier to lead people there, right? 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.339 And so I think for leaders at our institutions, 00:22:22.579 --> 00:22:26.720 but also leaders throughout our country, this 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:31.559 prevention mindset can be, you know, language 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:35.039 and a tool that is used to bring people along 00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:39.819 to this vision, right? Prompting people to imagine. 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:42.839 When was the last time our politicians asked 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.470 us to imagine? right a lot of times politicians 00:22:45.470 --> 00:22:49.289 are just out there spouting what they want you 00:22:49.289 --> 00:22:51.230 know when you see some of these really successful 00:22:51.230 --> 00:22:56.750 politicians they are listening and they are building 00:22:56.750 --> 00:22:59.430 they are kind of building a tapestry building 00:22:59.430 --> 00:23:01.589 a quilt based on what they're hearing from all 00:23:01.589 --> 00:23:03.549 their people because they're building something 00:23:03.549 --> 00:23:06.710 beautiful from the collective not just from their 00:23:06.710 --> 00:23:12.559 own their own ideas i agree I agree. I think 00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:15.500 that's a big part of what made Barack Obama's, 00:23:15.500 --> 00:23:17.680 especially his first campaign, so successful. 00:23:17.940 --> 00:23:23.460 Yeah, absolutely. He was encouraging us to dream. 00:23:23.700 --> 00:23:27.799 Yeah. And he was also very effective at building 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:31.839 and reflecting his coalition, his diverse coalition. 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.680 Yeah. So not just having the coalition and being 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:36.680 like, ain't they great? Look, but doing your 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:40.859 own thing. But actually reflecting that and, 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.539 you know, some people still have the right to, 00:23:44.539 --> 00:23:48.940 you know, analyze and maybe even criticize his 00:23:48.940 --> 00:23:51.859 actual presidency, both terms, what have you. 00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:55.279 And like you said, we're human. Nobody's perfect. 00:23:55.640 --> 00:23:58.859 You know, when he did wrong, he did wrong. But 00:23:58.859 --> 00:24:02.859 I tell you, of the things that I can observe 00:24:02.859 --> 00:24:05.720 or that I know of, there was a lot more good 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:08.490 than there was bad. Just in my personal opinion. 00:24:08.809 --> 00:24:13.690 Yeah. Well, yeah. And, you know, hope and change. 00:24:13.789 --> 00:24:17.930 Like the foundation was around building a better 00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:21.390 society. Right. And actually doing the work to 00:24:21.390 --> 00:24:24.789 get there. What we're seeing out of a lot of 00:24:24.789 --> 00:24:27.750 politicians right now, particularly the administration, 00:24:28.049 --> 00:24:31.849 is a lot of negativity. There is some language 00:24:31.849 --> 00:24:35.630 around, you know. like making a better future 00:24:35.630 --> 00:24:39.930 but it is it's all blaming and it's all tearing 00:24:39.930 --> 00:24:43.910 down what we need to get to is what do we want 00:24:43.910 --> 00:24:46.470 to build what do we want to create what do we 00:24:46.470 --> 00:24:50.410 want to what do we want people to have And we're 00:24:50.410 --> 00:24:52.970 just so far from that conversation right now, 00:24:53.109 --> 00:24:56.109 kind of at a national political level. But I 00:24:56.109 --> 00:24:59.009 think we do see some bright spots in local level 00:24:59.009 --> 00:25:01.529 and other things, bright spots of people who 00:25:01.529 --> 00:25:05.390 are leading and really getting us closer to a 00:25:05.390 --> 00:25:09.569 vision of change. So as we're developing this 00:25:09.569 --> 00:25:12.950 vision as individuals and as a collective, and 00:25:12.950 --> 00:25:16.009 we're kind of coming to a close of our time together. 00:25:18.759 --> 00:25:21.500 What's one question you want our listeners to 00:25:21.500 --> 00:25:24.859 ask themselves after listening to this conversation? 00:25:26.339 --> 00:25:29.940 And take your time. I love that question. And 00:25:29.940 --> 00:25:31.599 I'm going to ask you to answer that question 00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:35.660 too. I think the thing I would ask listeners 00:25:35.660 --> 00:25:43.880 is, what do you see? What do you hear? What do 00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.960 you feel when you imagine the world that you 00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:52.400 wish we lived in? Because it's that starting 00:25:52.400 --> 00:25:55.900 place. It's using all your senses to actually 00:25:55.900 --> 00:26:00.440 try to put yourself in that world. Because once 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.339 we have the vision for it, just like Robin D 00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:07.660 .G. Kelly said, the map to the new world is in 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:11.140 that imagination. So if we can actually articulate 00:26:11.140 --> 00:26:15.579 it and see it and feel it, we'll have a better 00:26:15.579 --> 00:26:21.279 idea of how to get there. So one thing that just 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:23.779 came to me, I love the way that you turn this 00:26:23.779 --> 00:26:26.279 question back around for me. I love that. Thank 00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:30.380 you. Because something that I've been meditating 00:26:30.380 --> 00:26:32.839 on quite a bit and that I'm looking at right 00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:37.839 now physically in my space is a reminder. And 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:40.319 some of my listeners out there who I've shared 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:43.200 this with will be like, oh my gosh, because I've 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.220 been saying this a lot. And that is the place 00:26:46.220 --> 00:26:49.680 in which I'll fit into will not exist until I 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:55.299 make it, which is by James Baldwin. And so it's 00:26:55.299 --> 00:27:01.680 very powerful. And so I want you to ask yourself, 00:27:01.900 --> 00:27:08.500 what is that place? Where is that place? And 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:14.670 how do we get there together? So that is my question 00:27:14.670 --> 00:27:17.009 for my audience. The place in which I'll fit 00:27:17.009 --> 00:27:20.450 into will not exist until I make it. So what 00:27:20.450 --> 00:27:23.150 is that place? Where is that place? And how do 00:27:23.150 --> 00:27:26.450 we get there together? Before we leave, we've 00:27:26.450 --> 00:27:30.789 got some other important questions. How can people 00:27:30.789 --> 00:27:34.430 support your work and pre -order your book, Imagine 00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:37.400 Doing Better? Thank you for asking that question. 00:27:37.500 --> 00:27:41.619 Well, you can pre -order on places like Bookshop 00:27:41.619 --> 00:27:46.299 or Amazon. So it should be available at any kind 00:27:46.299 --> 00:27:49.039 of online retailer and it's called Imagine Doing 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:52.099 Better. So yeah, that's one way you can pre -order. 00:27:52.359 --> 00:27:54.859 And then, you know, more broadly, if you are 00:27:54.859 --> 00:27:57.400 interested in the ideas that I've shared here 00:27:57.400 --> 00:27:59.700 on this podcast, or if you do read the book and 00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:03.720 enjoy it, you know, tell a friend. That's maybe 00:28:03.720 --> 00:28:05.920 one of the things you do with your people is 00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:08.539 you give them the book and say, let's imagine 00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:12.400 doing better together. And I'd be happy to join 00:28:12.400 --> 00:28:16.099 whatever group your listeners have and talk about 00:28:16.099 --> 00:28:18.839 some of these ideas with your group as well. 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.640 That's awesome. And I will encourage people to 00:28:23.640 --> 00:28:27.460 visit Paul Fleming's website and join his newsletter. 00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:32.009 He drops gems all the time. I think your newsletter 00:28:32.009 --> 00:28:36.150 actually helped us reconnect in some ways on 00:28:36.150 --> 00:28:39.230 a deeper level because I just enjoyed those nuggets 00:28:39.230 --> 00:28:42.450 that you were sharing routinely and was so happy 00:28:42.450 --> 00:28:45.829 to receive the newsletter because it provided 00:28:45.829 --> 00:28:51.890 a lot of resources, thought practices, and just 00:28:51.890 --> 00:28:55.089 insights that just really touched me and helped 00:28:55.089 --> 00:28:58.200 move me. And motivate me in a special way. So 00:28:58.200 --> 00:29:02.539 I'm going to be sharing Paul's website so that 00:29:02.539 --> 00:29:05.380 you can check out his newsletter, learn more 00:29:05.380 --> 00:29:08.660 about him. And hopefully you'll be pre -ordering 00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:12.220 that book and getting your copy. Imagine doing 00:29:12.220 --> 00:29:16.440 better in your mailbox or at your local bookshop 00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:22.579 very soon. Paul, it is a pleasure as usual. I 00:29:22.579 --> 00:29:25.759 am so happy that we had a chance to be on this 00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:28.000 show together today. Thank you so much for your 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.779 time. Yeah, thank you for the wonderful conversation. 00:29:32.519 --> 00:29:35.259 More next time on Questions You Didn't Ask.