WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.279 How would education change if we treated educator 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:06.080 wellness as essential to student achievement? 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.439 At Professional Inspiration, we believe educator 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:12.820 and student wellness isn't optional. It's foundational. 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:16.719 Our online courses, nationally accredited, are 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.460 designed to inspire and empower and inform educators 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:23.679 because when educators are well, students thrive. 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:27.480 Explore our courses at professional -inspiration 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:41.429 .com. Stay well. Welcome back to Questions You 00:00:41.429 --> 00:00:44.130 Didn't Ask. I'm Nyesha Frey, joined once again 00:00:44.130 --> 00:00:47.130 by Dr. Paul Fleming. We're in the home stretch 00:00:47.130 --> 00:00:50.890 of Beyond the Band -Aid, prevention, power, and 00:00:50.890 --> 00:00:53.289 public health equity. And I can promise you, 00:00:53.350 --> 00:00:57.570 this conversation keeps hitting new highs. Let's 00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:02.469 dive right back in. So back to our hashtag. So 00:01:02.469 --> 00:01:05.390 I think that it's really important that we do, 00:01:05.510 --> 00:01:08.189 we are in a time where people are anxious for 00:01:08.189 --> 00:01:12.900 action. And I appreciate the fact that you are 00:01:12.900 --> 00:01:17.400 talking about how we need to free up our mind. 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:21.859 You know, the way that things have been is not 00:01:21.859 --> 00:01:24.939 the way things are going to get better in the 00:01:24.939 --> 00:01:27.540 future. We have to imagine something different 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:32.200 because the status quo has not served us, right? 00:01:32.500 --> 00:01:34.920 It's not served the majority of us. And even 00:01:34.920 --> 00:01:37.900 those who think that they are like living in 00:01:37.900 --> 00:01:42.569 ease. There are certain aspects of this world 00:01:42.569 --> 00:01:44.709 where you are not going to be able to escape 00:01:44.709 --> 00:01:51.209 the impacts of your privilege. Yeah. And so I 00:01:51.209 --> 00:01:53.430 think that we are definitely in a space where 00:01:53.430 --> 00:01:57.269 we need to be about how. We need to be in the 00:01:57.269 --> 00:02:01.890 how. How do we move forward? So your book encourages 00:02:01.890 --> 00:02:05.090 a shift from tweaking systems, which has tended 00:02:05.090 --> 00:02:08.819 to be the approach that has won. in a lot of 00:02:08.819 --> 00:02:12.479 examples. You've said, let's shift from tweaking 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:18.939 systems to imagining entirely new ones. So how 00:02:18.939 --> 00:02:21.719 would you say that that might look or play out 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:23.879 when we think about, you mentioned the criminal 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.060 justice system, we can relate to that, right? 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:28.659 We also talked a little bit about our educational 00:02:28.659 --> 00:02:32.180 experiences. How do you think this prevention 00:02:32.180 --> 00:02:36.280 thinking and kind of rehauling, if you will? 00:02:36.840 --> 00:02:39.460 plays itself out in in any of those types of 00:02:39.460 --> 00:02:43.300 yeah yeah so and and i also want to say you know 00:02:43.300 --> 00:02:48.000 i think the tweaking of systems we've seen for 00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:51.439 decades where we'll we'll make little policy 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.939 switches around the edges right even obamacare 00:02:54.939 --> 00:02:57.280 which made some pretty big changes to our health 00:02:57.280 --> 00:03:00.360 care system it was a tweak right we at the end 00:03:00.360 --> 00:03:04.599 of the day we still had our patchwork system 00:03:04.599 --> 00:03:10.020 that left a lot of people struggling. Right now 00:03:10.020 --> 00:03:12.860 with Trump, what we're seeing is some smashing 00:03:12.860 --> 00:03:17.840 of systems. And I think what I'd like to definitely 00:03:17.840 --> 00:03:21.259 say is that's not what I'm advocating for either. 00:03:22.539 --> 00:03:27.479 So tearing down systems, that may be a precursor 00:03:27.479 --> 00:03:32.659 to building systems we need. So if I allow myself 00:03:32.659 --> 00:03:36.120 to be hopeful, there is a way in which what we're 00:03:36.120 --> 00:03:38.719 experiencing right now may be a precursor to 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:41.939 us being able to build the systems that we need 00:03:41.939 --> 00:03:44.740 once they're torn down but of course it's being 00:03:44.740 --> 00:03:47.780 done in such a reckless way that that that's 00:03:47.780 --> 00:03:50.680 not what i would advocate for but the point being 00:03:50.680 --> 00:03:53.840 is that we do need to dream up new systems right 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.960 there's a lot of things in our society that are 00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:01.759 built over time right and if we were if you and 00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:04.259 i got together, and this would actually be really 00:04:04.259 --> 00:04:06.960 fun to do sometime, Naisha. We got together with 00:04:06.960 --> 00:04:09.400 a whiteboard and we were like, all right, let's 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:13.680 start a new country. What do we want? How are 00:04:13.680 --> 00:04:17.879 we going to make sure that people do share? What 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:20.120 are we going to do with people if they make a 00:04:20.120 --> 00:04:23.540 mistake? If they do something that is somewhat 00:04:23.540 --> 00:04:26.519 harmful to another person? What kind of system 00:04:26.519 --> 00:04:29.759 do we want to put in place for that, right? The 00:04:29.759 --> 00:04:32.139 first thing we're probably not going to say is, 00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:36.480 oh, I have an idea. Let's put a bunch of people 00:04:36.480 --> 00:04:41.800 with guns in our community. And make it so that 00:04:41.800 --> 00:04:45.759 they can't really have any accountability. And 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:49.720 those people can lock people in cages. Or at 00:04:49.720 --> 00:04:53.000 least start people in the process to that. That's 00:04:53.000 --> 00:04:54.959 not what we're going to dream for our new country, 00:04:55.100 --> 00:05:00.509 right? What we're going to think about. is what 00:05:00.509 --> 00:05:02.910 systems are going to help everybody thrive? And 00:05:02.910 --> 00:05:04.769 if you take that prevention thinking approach, 00:05:04.970 --> 00:05:08.550 right, and you think about root causes, so why, 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:11.329 and I'll focus in this area of sort of criminal 00:05:11.329 --> 00:05:15.569 justice, why are people stealing in the first 00:05:15.569 --> 00:05:21.550 place? Why are people acting violently in the 00:05:21.550 --> 00:05:25.790 first place? So if we dig into those root causes, 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:28.699 We're going to identify some different issues. 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:31.639 You know, if it's stealing, maybe it's connected 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:35.699 to poverty or not having resources or not having 00:05:35.699 --> 00:05:37.899 opportunities. You know, there's a variety of 00:05:37.899 --> 00:05:40.040 things that could be connected to. But but it's 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.779 not just that that the person who stole is a 00:05:42.779 --> 00:05:45.480 bad person. Right. Which is what our criminal 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:49.980 justice system kind of imagines. And our news 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:53.120 media also imagines. Right. You're a felon. You're 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.250 labeled. you are not, it's not your behavior 00:05:57.250 --> 00:06:01.810 was bad. It's that this person is bad. And so 00:06:01.810 --> 00:06:04.350 anyways, so you're digging to the root causes 00:06:04.350 --> 00:06:07.089 with violence that may have other root causes, 00:06:07.170 --> 00:06:10.149 may have learned it from family growing up, whatever 00:06:10.149 --> 00:06:14.629 it is, right? So we want to create systems that 00:06:14.629 --> 00:06:16.829 prevent that from happening in the first place. 00:06:17.910 --> 00:06:21.689 Right now, our systems, right, are set up that, 00:06:21.750 --> 00:06:25.060 oh, This person committed an act of violence. 00:06:25.339 --> 00:06:30.060 Now let's step in. Now let's channel all of our 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:32.420 expensive resources because the police are very 00:06:32.420 --> 00:06:36.240 expensive and jail is very expensive. Now let's 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:39.339 channel all of our resources to addressing that. 00:06:39.339 --> 00:06:43.000 Punishing them. Yeah. What if we marshaled all 00:06:43.000 --> 00:06:45.899 of those resources to preventing it in the first 00:06:45.899 --> 00:06:49.300 place? And that's that prevention thinking. And 00:06:49.300 --> 00:06:52.639 so, you know, I can think of. I mean, first off, 00:06:52.680 --> 00:06:55.180 if you're thinking about reorienting criminal 00:06:55.180 --> 00:06:59.839 justice resources, I'm thinking a lot about how 00:06:59.839 --> 00:07:03.540 do we put funding into schools to help social 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:06.480 emotional learning, help give young people the 00:07:06.480 --> 00:07:10.399 tools that they need. Why aren't there widespread 00:07:10.399 --> 00:07:13.879 free classes for parents on how to be better 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:18.019 parents? I certainly could use it. Okay. Or just 00:07:18.019 --> 00:07:21.040 mental health around being a parent. Yes, exactly. 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.779 Widespread mental health resources, right? We 00:07:23.779 --> 00:07:29.620 could channel so much of what we put into our 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:34.000 criminal legal system, policing, prisons. We 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.740 could channel it into improving mental health 00:07:36.740 --> 00:07:39.040 in our communities, giving people the better 00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:42.360 tools to deal with conflict, right? We, as a 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.040 society, we're pretty bad at dealing with conflict 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:48.560 in a nonviolent way. And conflict is natural 00:07:48.560 --> 00:07:51.339 part of being in human relationships. Right. 00:07:51.620 --> 00:07:54.120 And so anyways, that's that's that prevention 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.600 thinking. And that's that reorientation. And 00:07:56.600 --> 00:07:59.279 to answer your question, I first went to the 00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:03.180 place of like dreaming big. Right. There are 00:08:03.180 --> 00:08:07.240 also some maybe less lofty, although I still 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:09.139 want to work towards that vision. Right. I'm 00:08:09.139 --> 00:08:11.639 not losing that vision. But in the immediate 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.329 sort of shorter term, next couple of years. I 00:08:15.329 --> 00:08:18.709 think about building systems like emergency response 00:08:18.709 --> 00:08:21.870 systems that are disconnected from the police, 00:08:21.970 --> 00:08:26.769 right? So if you have an emergency at your home 00:08:26.769 --> 00:08:29.649 or you're out and about and you have an emergency, 00:08:29.850 --> 00:08:34.769 in most of the US, the only resource you have 00:08:34.769 --> 00:08:39.129 is you call 911 and a police officer with a gun 00:08:39.129 --> 00:08:42.669 and the ability to arrest, detain, and send you 00:08:42.669 --> 00:08:46.320 to court and jail. That is the person who responds. 00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:51.600 If we were to build a system that had a more 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:55.299 care first approach that sent a social worker 00:08:55.299 --> 00:08:59.700 to arrive on the scene who had conflict de -escalation 00:08:59.700 --> 00:09:03.720 skills, right? Had the ability to refer you to 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:07.220 mental health services or housing services or 00:09:07.220 --> 00:09:12.610 whatever services you might need, right? That 00:09:12.610 --> 00:09:15.230 is the type of system that we need to be standing 00:09:15.230 --> 00:09:19.330 up in our communities as an alternative to police. 00:09:19.470 --> 00:09:22.149 And that creates alternative pathways, right? 00:09:22.409 --> 00:09:25.509 Because if you think about the unhoused person 00:09:25.509 --> 00:09:30.730 that, let's just say, is causing a mild disturbance 00:09:30.730 --> 00:09:36.190 on a city street, right? There are any number 00:09:36.190 --> 00:09:38.269 of ways that society could deal with that. But 00:09:38.269 --> 00:09:40.850 right now, we mostly deal with it by calling 00:09:40.850 --> 00:09:43.490 the police and the police show up. Now, there 00:09:43.490 --> 00:09:46.289 are some officers that are very kind and they 00:09:46.289 --> 00:09:50.370 try to help that person, right? But that is not 00:09:50.370 --> 00:09:53.129 actually what police officers are trained to 00:09:53.129 --> 00:09:54.950 do. And that's not what they're hired to do, 00:09:55.029 --> 00:10:01.190 right? Our cities and our society is actually 00:10:01.190 --> 00:10:04.889 asking police officers to take on this role that 00:10:04.889 --> 00:10:08.629 sometimes leads to violence and arrests and imprisonment. 00:10:08.629 --> 00:10:13.090 Right. So it's just it's set up for disaster 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:16.789 there. Right. Yes. In that case, when the police 00:10:16.789 --> 00:10:19.490 show on the scene, you know, there's a decent 00:10:19.490 --> 00:10:21.610 chance that a good outcome will come of it. Maybe 00:10:21.610 --> 00:10:23.269 that person will get connected to the shelter. 00:10:23.470 --> 00:10:26.470 But there's also a decent chance that that person. 00:10:26.960 --> 00:10:29.299 ends up in jail for the night, that that person 00:10:29.299 --> 00:10:32.580 ends up even worse, right? Getting harmed by 00:10:32.580 --> 00:10:36.820 the police officer. And so a care first approach 00:10:36.820 --> 00:10:40.700 would have us with somebody who is actually equipped 00:10:40.700 --> 00:10:43.679 to help that person get the resources that they 00:10:43.679 --> 00:10:47.220 need. And not just for that moment in time, but 00:10:47.220 --> 00:10:50.559 how do we connect them with social services or 00:10:50.559 --> 00:10:52.519 the health services they need so they can get 00:10:52.519 --> 00:10:56.279 on a path to housing, to stability, et cetera. 00:10:56.889 --> 00:10:59.250 And so so that's the type of systems that I think 00:10:59.250 --> 00:11:02.669 prevention thinking allows us to think about, 00:11:02.809 --> 00:11:06.450 dream up and then take action on. Right. Because 00:11:06.450 --> 00:11:09.110 once we have a vision and a clear idea of it, 00:11:09.269 --> 00:11:11.330 we can start advocating for it. We can start 00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:14.289 talking to our city council people and saying, 00:11:14.370 --> 00:11:16.970 why don't we have this? Why is it that my only 00:11:16.970 --> 00:11:20.750 choice is police in this? Right. And there are 00:11:20.750 --> 00:11:22.990 some wonderful examples across the country of 00:11:22.990 --> 00:11:25.409 these programs sprouting up. I know Durham, North 00:11:25.409 --> 00:11:29.649 Carolina has a program. Denver has a program. 00:11:30.289 --> 00:11:32.929 There's other spots. So they are growing in frequency, 00:11:33.049 --> 00:11:36.230 but they're still not widespread. And even the 00:11:36.230 --> 00:11:38.889 ones that exist, some of them are going through 00:11:38.889 --> 00:11:40.889 some growing pains. You know, they're new, so 00:11:40.889 --> 00:11:43.210 they need to figure things out for how to operate. 00:11:43.389 --> 00:11:46.529 But that's the kind of thinking, you know, the 00:11:46.529 --> 00:11:50.889 book invites us to do together. If you're enjoying 00:11:50.889 --> 00:11:54.070 the show as much as we love creating it, consider 00:11:54.070 --> 00:11:57.490 showing your support by buying us a cup of coffee. 00:11:57.850 --> 00:12:04.570 Visit buymeacoffee .com slash naishafrayo. That's 00:12:04.570 --> 00:12:11.830 buymeacoffee .com forward slash naishafrayo. 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:17.149 All one word. Each cup is just $5 and every single 00:12:17.149 --> 00:12:20.720 one helps us continue to produce, develop and 00:12:20.720 --> 00:12:23.919 sustain the high quality content you've come 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:26.960 to expect from questions you didn't ask. Thank 00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.860 you for your continued support and let's keep 00:12:29.860 --> 00:12:33.840 the conversation going. I love it so much. I 00:12:33.840 --> 00:12:37.159 love it so much because everything that you were 00:12:37.159 --> 00:12:42.340 sharing, you know, I either have a personal family 00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:46.600 community example of, and I'll give two. One. 00:12:47.419 --> 00:12:52.940 is a woman who has a business. She happens to 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:57.620 own some land. She lives there, right? She's 00:12:57.620 --> 00:13:00.899 developing this amazing healing community, right? 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:03.620 And it's associated with land and nature and 00:13:03.620 --> 00:13:06.899 all this other great stuff. And she had a disturbance 00:13:06.899 --> 00:13:11.399 with a family member who was going through a 00:13:11.399 --> 00:13:15.340 particular health crisis. And the response was 00:13:15.340 --> 00:13:19.700 the police showing up. These two people are of 00:13:19.700 --> 00:13:22.120 color, so it's concerning, right? You don't know 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:23.720 what you're going to get. Happened to get some 00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:26.500 really nice police officers, but there were several 00:13:26.500 --> 00:13:30.399 of them. Lights on, everything flashing and blaring. 00:13:30.980 --> 00:13:35.799 Now she's talking to them. They deescalated the 00:13:35.799 --> 00:13:38.259 situation. They understand what's going on. No 00:13:38.259 --> 00:13:42.080 one's going to jail. We win, right? And so then 00:13:42.080 --> 00:13:44.080 they start asking her questions, right? Because 00:13:44.080 --> 00:13:47.940 they are human beings. They're curious about 00:13:47.940 --> 00:13:50.659 the healing work that she's embarking on with 00:13:50.659 --> 00:13:54.419 this land. She said, I would love to tell you 00:13:54.419 --> 00:13:57.740 more and spend some time with you, but you're 00:13:57.740 --> 00:13:59.940 going to have to come back when you don't have 00:13:59.940 --> 00:14:03.080 that uniform on because my neighbors are watching. 00:14:04.940 --> 00:14:08.259 And if I'm going to be a business, I can't be 00:14:08.259 --> 00:14:10.759 having the police around here with their lights 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:15.600 on. Right. You're very nice people. I appreciate 00:14:15.600 --> 00:14:19.120 you. And the good thing is that, you know, they 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:21.559 exchanged information and everything went smoothly. 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:24.820 That's not the story that we usually get in the 00:14:24.820 --> 00:14:28.840 media. But the fact that there could have been 00:14:28.840 --> 00:14:31.399 a better way, a better time for her to meet those 00:14:31.399 --> 00:14:35.000 lovely people, or that there could have been 00:14:35.000 --> 00:14:38.620 a different approach in which it was less jarring, 00:14:38.759 --> 00:14:43.139 stressful, what have you, is pertinent to this 00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:47.899 conversation. On the other hand, I'm aware of 00:14:47.899 --> 00:14:50.899 a situation where a woman was with her child 00:14:50.899 --> 00:14:55.600 who was having a mental health crisis. The woman 00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:57.279 was living in the community that she had lived 00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:00.059 in for a very long time. But, you know, like 00:15:00.059 --> 00:15:02.179 you mentioned, being a parent does not come with 00:15:02.179 --> 00:15:07.620 instruction manuals. And people who think that 00:15:07.620 --> 00:15:11.340 they know how to parent your child, they're oftentimes 00:15:11.340 --> 00:15:13.659 just as confused as you are. They're just arrogant 00:15:13.659 --> 00:15:17.669 about it. and won't admit that they don't know. 00:15:17.750 --> 00:15:20.409 It's just a stab in the dark, you know, and they 00:15:20.409 --> 00:15:24.029 probably be a more nosy than not. Right. So she, 00:15:24.029 --> 00:15:26.350 you know, it's like, okay, what do I do? Okay. 00:15:26.450 --> 00:15:29.409 Well, I go to the emergency room. The fact that 00:15:29.409 --> 00:15:31.850 people don't know what to do when they're in 00:15:31.850 --> 00:15:35.889 an emergency or who to call when something happens 00:15:35.889 --> 00:15:39.090 is a system that I think we should change. Right. 00:15:39.370 --> 00:15:41.330 Yeah. Because we don't know when an emergency 00:15:41.330 --> 00:15:44.299 is going to happen. Right. So there needs to 00:15:44.299 --> 00:15:47.019 be some preventative action that happens early 00:15:47.019 --> 00:15:49.779 so that when it shows up in your life, you know 00:15:49.779 --> 00:15:53.879 where to go. Because when her and her child sat 00:15:53.879 --> 00:16:00.419 in the ER for more than a day. In a city that 00:16:00.419 --> 00:16:02.580 is known for having some of the most premier 00:16:02.580 --> 00:16:07.419 hospitals and health care systems. Once they 00:16:07.419 --> 00:16:12.809 got to see a provider. The provider was not equipped 00:16:12.809 --> 00:16:19.090 to address the issue and ask the woman simply, 00:16:19.210 --> 00:16:21.190 well, if that's what he's going through, why'd 00:16:21.190 --> 00:16:28.090 you bring him here? I mean, I'm just saying, 00:16:28.190 --> 00:16:29.970 you know, these are the systems that we have 00:16:29.970 --> 00:16:32.289 to rethink. Right. Because we've been tweaking 00:16:32.289 --> 00:16:35.570 them and changing this little thing and changing 00:16:35.570 --> 00:16:38.269 that little thing. And yeah. OK, well, we hired 00:16:38.269 --> 00:16:40.250 some nicer police officers. Well, guess what? 00:16:40.269 --> 00:16:42.129 They're still showing up with guns and flashing 00:16:42.129 --> 00:16:46.049 lights. OK, well, we've got this great health 00:16:46.049 --> 00:16:48.509 care system and all these awesome hospitals, 00:16:48.669 --> 00:16:51.169 but people in the community don't know how to 00:16:51.169 --> 00:16:55.909 access it. Yep. Right. And the people working 00:16:55.909 --> 00:16:59.850 in that. world class health care system, don't 00:16:59.850 --> 00:17:03.350 know how to serve the people that show up in 00:17:03.350 --> 00:17:09.490 crisis. Yep. Right. And so we have these world 00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:12.109 class systems. We have these multimillion dollar, 00:17:12.130 --> 00:17:15.509 trillion dollar investments in policing and this 00:17:15.509 --> 00:17:19.190 and that. But when it comes time to talk about. 00:17:19.930 --> 00:17:22.849 Well, what about if we were to partner with and 00:17:22.849 --> 00:17:27.069 employ social workers or counselors or therapists 00:17:27.069 --> 00:17:31.710 or psychiatrists and offload some of that money 00:17:31.710 --> 00:17:34.049 that we've been blessed with from the federal 00:17:34.049 --> 00:17:38.950 government or our state or local entity, right? 00:17:39.089 --> 00:17:43.690 To have them partner, work alongside with, again, 00:17:43.750 --> 00:17:46.490 coming out of our silos, coming out of our circles 00:17:46.490 --> 00:17:50.700 and finding our center. Finding our collective 00:17:50.700 --> 00:17:55.799 center and using those resources in such a way 00:17:55.799 --> 00:17:59.720 that we're sharing so that we can care, right? 00:17:59.799 --> 00:18:03.400 So that we can effectively serve the needs of 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.420 our people who are our brothers, our sisters, 00:18:06.579 --> 00:18:10.519 our aunts, our uncles, our cousins, our friends. 00:18:10.539 --> 00:18:14.339 Friends are good too. And not seeing people who 00:18:14.339 --> 00:18:20.339 are going through a really hard time. as the 00:18:20.339 --> 00:18:23.220 scum of the earth, something to be punished, 00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:27.299 you know, this lifelong label of once a felon, 00:18:27.319 --> 00:18:31.099 always a felon. Like who does that? Right. Oh, 00:18:31.279 --> 00:18:34.059 you did this terrible thing when you were 22 00:18:34.059 --> 00:18:36.519 years old, you've got to spend the next 30 years 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:38.619 of your life paying for it. Like what? I didn't 00:18:38.619 --> 00:18:42.480 even live that long. Right. Yeah. I got to pay 00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:44.799 for it for longer than I've been alive. Yeah. 00:18:45.660 --> 00:18:48.900 Well, and it's, I, you know, I feel like a lot 00:18:48.900 --> 00:18:53.099 of what we're talking about comes back to we 00:18:53.099 --> 00:18:58.180 all are humans and we have a shared humanity 00:18:58.180 --> 00:19:04.279 and some of these systems and our culture and 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:07.819 you know our media and other things are pushing 00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:11.619 us to view other parts of society as less than 00:19:11.619 --> 00:19:14.000 human that's not the way we always think about 00:19:14.000 --> 00:19:16.299 it but in reality right when you're labeling 00:19:16.299 --> 00:19:19.940 somebody a felon and you're kind of subconsciously 00:19:19.940 --> 00:19:23.440 thinking of them as a bad guy that's what you're 00:19:23.440 --> 00:19:27.480 dehumanizing that person right in in the case 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:29.960 of the healthcare system we see it they're sometimes 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:32.720 treating people not like they would treat their 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:36.180 own brother but they're thinking of them as this 00:19:36.180 --> 00:19:39.339 person has made poor choices This person is not 00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:42.940 doesn't have the same, you know, wherewithal 00:19:42.940 --> 00:19:47.160 that I do. I'm thinking about. And so it's a 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:50.000 sort of dehumanizing of the person. Whereas if 00:19:50.000 --> 00:19:53.319 we if we were more willing to give each other 00:19:53.319 --> 00:19:57.059 grace, acknowledge that all of us are flawed. 00:19:57.480 --> 00:20:01.259 All of us make mistakes. All of us make a series 00:20:01.259 --> 00:20:05.450 of good choices and bad choices. But our environment 00:20:05.450 --> 00:20:08.250 and our context shapes whether those choices 00:20:08.250 --> 00:20:13.009 have dire consequences or not, right? Yes. That 00:20:13.009 --> 00:20:18.470 is a big shift that I think we need to be cognizant 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:21.430 of the times ourselves, and I count myself definitely 00:20:21.430 --> 00:20:24.109 including this, when we're dehumanizing other 00:20:24.109 --> 00:20:27.670 people with our language or our viewpoints. And 00:20:27.670 --> 00:20:30.509 so much of our systems could be better if we 00:20:30.509 --> 00:20:33.740 actually saw every... Human in our society as 00:20:33.740 --> 00:20:35.960 an actual human that deserves the same things 00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:40.880 we deserve. Right. So we're getting into the 00:20:40.880 --> 00:20:43.759 space of deserving. We're getting in this space 00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:47.619 of resources, allocations, things like that. 00:20:47.700 --> 00:20:50.680 And some people say helping others is too expensive. 00:20:52.460 --> 00:20:57.640 You know, people say, you know, you have talked 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:00.559 about expanding your imagination, understanding. 00:21:01.529 --> 00:21:04.049 that there is an abundance, having an abundant 00:21:04.049 --> 00:21:08.089 mindset, but there is a lot of lack thinking. 00:21:08.809 --> 00:21:11.490 There's a lot of thinking that's centered on, 00:21:11.609 --> 00:21:13.329 there's a lack of resources, there are limited 00:21:13.329 --> 00:21:16.789 number of resources and things like that. But 00:21:16.789 --> 00:21:20.170 for us, Paul, the way that we were trained, right? 00:21:20.250 --> 00:21:24.450 And the way that we are built is recognizing 00:21:24.450 --> 00:21:29.730 that sickness, poverty, and early death is even 00:21:29.730 --> 00:21:35.319 more expensive. for everyone. So tell us a little 00:21:35.319 --> 00:21:38.440 bit more about what you say, what your book says, 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:40.579 what your research says about those types of 00:21:40.579 --> 00:21:45.680 things. Yeah. And one other book I'd recommend 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.559 on this topic is The Sum of Us by Heather McGee. 00:21:49.740 --> 00:21:55.940 And it really talks about how racism in US society 00:21:55.940 --> 00:21:58.819 in particular, although I'm sure it's going to 00:21:58.819 --> 00:22:02.150 be true across the globe, but It harms all people. 00:22:02.210 --> 00:22:05.390 Sure, it has a disproportionate impact on Black 00:22:05.390 --> 00:22:08.289 people and other people of color, but that it 00:22:08.289 --> 00:22:12.069 harms the entire society. And part of the, some 00:22:12.069 --> 00:22:15.269 of the examples, I mean, the prime example that 00:22:15.269 --> 00:22:17.930 Heather McGee gives in that is the fact that 00:22:17.930 --> 00:22:22.990 because of racism, there are so many communities 00:22:22.990 --> 00:22:25.589 across the country that don't have public swimming 00:22:25.589 --> 00:22:30.420 pools. Because rather than integrate public swimming 00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:35.539 pools in the 60s, cities chose to just pave over 00:22:35.539 --> 00:22:39.880 their swimming pools. So that means that white 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:42.680 people don't have swimming pools, right? Like, 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.819 yes, it also means that Black people don't have 00:22:44.819 --> 00:22:48.180 swimming pools, but that is the racism in that 00:22:48.180 --> 00:22:51.880 case, you know, caused that community as a whole 00:22:51.880 --> 00:22:56.710 to have fewer resources. And there are... you 00:22:56.710 --> 00:22:58.970 know a lot of other amazing examples in the book 00:22:58.970 --> 00:23:02.190 some i also include in my book but you know you 00:23:02.190 --> 00:23:05.910 can trace also like our lack of social services 00:23:05.910 --> 00:23:10.329 including you know health care for all racism 00:23:10.329 --> 00:23:14.250 in our society right part of it was a motivation 00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:17.670 to keep black people and other people of color 00:23:17.670 --> 00:23:21.009 from receiving those services so let's make it 00:23:21.009 --> 00:23:24.769 so that nobody can have these services and so 00:23:24.769 --> 00:23:28.299 it is you know it's true that racism harms black 00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:31.380 people and people of color more but our society 00:23:31.380 --> 00:23:34.759 as a whole is less resourced and less abundant 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:40.099 because of this disease we all have of yeah exactly 00:23:40.099 --> 00:23:46.119 and you say it disease yeah and there's a um 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:50.920 there's a definition of racism by dr kamara phyllis 00:23:50.920 --> 00:23:54.440 jones oh i love her yeah she's amazing one of 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:57.900 my heroes But in her definition of racism, she 00:23:57.900 --> 00:24:00.759 really highlights it's at the end of the day, 00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:03.240 it's the waste of human resources. Oh, gosh. 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.839 Right. And so to get back to your question directly, 00:24:08.160 --> 00:24:13.819 what does it cost to help people? Oh, pennies 00:24:13.819 --> 00:24:17.180 compared to the cost it has on society to keep 00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:20.019 on harming people in the way that we do. Right. 00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:23.660 Our policy choices are causing so much harm to 00:24:23.660 --> 00:24:28.109 our communities. And it is wasting so much human 00:24:28.109 --> 00:24:30.829 resources. Think about the millions of people 00:24:30.829 --> 00:24:35.869 we imprison, right? I mean, some of those people 00:24:35.869 --> 00:24:39.309 are brilliant. Some of those people are creative. 00:24:39.690 --> 00:24:42.650 Some of those people bring happiness to others, 00:24:42.869 --> 00:24:50.029 right? Like there is an abundance of talent and 00:24:50.029 --> 00:24:53.609 resources in our prison population. And what 00:24:53.609 --> 00:24:58.960 do we do? Keep it locked up. And we pay something 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:01.319 like I don't have the exact figure, but something 00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:05.640 like forty thousand dollars per person per year 00:25:05.640 --> 00:25:12.299 to do that. You could pay some that is in some 00:25:12.299 --> 00:25:17.140 states an average annual salary. Right. And so 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:23.470 this argument of cost. On its surface, you know, 00:25:23.470 --> 00:25:26.829 the cost of providing SNAP benefits, the cost 00:25:26.829 --> 00:25:30.589 of providing Medicaid, the cost of providing 00:25:30.589 --> 00:25:34.269 housing. Yeah, it does have a cost. That is true. 00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:38.289 And there are finite resources within city budgets 00:25:38.289 --> 00:25:43.069 and state budgets. All of that is true. But when 00:25:43.069 --> 00:25:48.049 you think about what we waste harming people. 00:25:49.690 --> 00:25:52.430 And then the money we spend cleaning up the mess, 00:25:52.630 --> 00:25:57.569 right? So we are harming communities. I mean, 00:25:57.609 --> 00:26:01.089 a prime example of this is Flint water crisis, 00:26:01.329 --> 00:26:06.809 right? They tried to save a few million dollars, 00:26:06.849 --> 00:26:10.750 ended up harming the whole community. It's costing 00:26:10.750 --> 00:26:13.910 hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, much 00:26:13.910 --> 00:26:16.329 more than that, but in sort of direct costs, 00:26:16.450 --> 00:26:21.299 right? That was, you know, just a direct policy 00:26:21.299 --> 00:26:24.720 choice. Yeah. And instead of investing in the 00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:26.460 community, right, because they were struggling 00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:28.920 financially. Well, why were they struggling financially? 00:26:29.039 --> 00:26:30.740 I'm going to get back to these root causes. Right. 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.180 They were struggling financially because of the 00:26:33.180 --> 00:26:36.279 economic policies that caused divestment in the 00:26:36.279 --> 00:26:40.319 city. It caused companies to have to leave. It 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:45.039 caused and then racism caused white flight. Yeah. 00:26:45.059 --> 00:26:47.779 Investment. And then all of a sudden, Flint, 00:26:47.900 --> 00:26:50.759 Michigan, as a town, as a municipality, was struggling. 00:26:51.559 --> 00:26:56.299 And how did we as a society, in this case, the 00:26:56.299 --> 00:27:00.740 state of Michigan, try to solve that? Like, oh, 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.500 let's give worse water. Let's make a decision, 00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:09.140 right? No one will notice. Yeah. They could have 00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:11.420 made an investment, right? They could have said, 00:27:11.559 --> 00:27:15.569 oh, wow. Our past policies really made this city 00:27:15.569 --> 00:27:20.210 struggle. We should fill in the gaps. Yeah. Right? 00:27:20.450 --> 00:27:23.329 And we are seeing some of that now. There are 00:27:23.329 --> 00:27:25.890 some good investments in the city of Flint now. 00:27:25.950 --> 00:27:29.410 There's some amazing work being done. Is it enough? 00:27:29.509 --> 00:27:34.630 Probably not, right? But the point being that 00:27:34.630 --> 00:27:40.009 it can cost so much more to stick with this punitive 00:27:40.009 --> 00:27:44.440 system, this... we're just wasting, you know, 00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:49.099 I listened to economists and other policymakers 00:27:49.099 --> 00:27:51.200 talking about the economy, how important the 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:55.180 economy is. Think about how gigantic our economy 00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:59.799 would be is if everybody had the opportunity 00:27:59.799 --> 00:28:02.259 to thrive and meet their full potential. How 00:28:02.259 --> 00:28:05.880 about that? Think about all the stuff we would 00:28:05.880 --> 00:28:09.259 be creating in our economy, how thriving we'd 00:28:09.259 --> 00:28:14.029 be. But instead we, we hold back whole segments 00:28:14.029 --> 00:28:17.269 of our population. We don't give them the opportunities 00:28:17.269 --> 00:28:20.089 in school. We don't give them the opportunities. 00:28:20.609 --> 00:28:23.690 We force them to be resilient. So some do break 00:28:23.690 --> 00:28:27.190 through still, right? But many, the resilience 00:28:27.190 --> 00:28:30.430 isn't enough, right? Because it's too, the weight 00:28:30.430 --> 00:28:32.990 of the systems they're experiencing is too heavy 00:28:32.990 --> 00:28:40.069 to bear. So yeah, you got me going, but you know, 00:28:40.490 --> 00:28:43.970 it the cost the cost question it's just it's 00:28:43.970 --> 00:28:47.029 a it's again a lack of imagination it's a lack 00:28:47.029 --> 00:28:49.009 of being able to zoom out and actually think 00:28:49.009 --> 00:28:53.029 about how like what are the ways in which we 00:28:53.029 --> 00:28:58.089 are uh causing harm and and we're actually paying 00:28:58.089 --> 00:29:02.569 money to cause that harm in a lot of cases yes 00:29:02.569 --> 00:29:09.529 oh sorry one more thing police police Take up 00:29:09.529 --> 00:29:15.170 30 to 40 % of city budgets, right? Yeah. We can 00:29:15.170 --> 00:29:19.150 imagine other ways to use that money. Most definitely. 00:29:19.230 --> 00:29:23.529 Other ways that also promote public safety. Other 00:29:23.529 --> 00:29:27.690 ways that help people thrive. And so when we 00:29:27.690 --> 00:29:29.549 have limited resources, we have to remember, 00:29:29.750 --> 00:29:33.990 oh, we have plentiful resources. We are just 00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:38.859 choosing to constrain them in certain ways. That's 00:29:38.859 --> 00:29:41.420 another wrap on Questions You Didn't Ask. I'm 00:29:41.420 --> 00:29:44.279 Nyasha Frey, and it's been an absolute pleasure 00:29:44.279 --> 00:29:47.220 digging into these powerful conversations with 00:29:47.220 --> 00:29:50.140 Dr. Paul Fleming. We've got one final episode 00:29:50.140 --> 00:29:53.480 in this series, Beyond the Band -Aid. So don't 00:29:53.480 --> 00:29:56.779 miss the grand finale. Subscribe, tell a friend, 00:29:56.920 --> 00:29:57.900 and meet me here.