WEBVTT 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.279 How would education change if we treated educator 00:00:03.279 --> 00:00:06.080 wellness as essential to student achievement? 00:00:06.480 --> 00:00:09.439 At Professional Inspiration, we believe educator 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:12.820 and student wellness isn't optional. It's foundational. 00:00:13.140 --> 00:00:16.719 Our online courses, nationally accredited, are 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.460 designed to inspire and empower and inform educators 00:00:20.460 --> 00:00:23.679 because when educators are well, students thrive. 00:00:24.160 --> 00:00:27.480 Explore our courses at professional -inspiration 00:00:27.480 --> 00:00:41.799 .com. Stay well. Welcome to Season 4, Series 00:00:41.799 --> 00:00:45.060 3 of Questions You Didn't Ask. I'm Nyisha Frey, 00:00:45.060 --> 00:00:48.960 CEO of Nyisha Frey Consulting, LLC, where we 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:51.460 design community -informed solutions to health 00:00:51.460 --> 00:00:54.719 equity problems and shine a light on the questions 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:58.939 that too often go unasked. This series is called 00:00:58.939 --> 00:01:02.979 Beyond the Band -Aid, Prevention, Power, and 00:01:02.979 --> 00:01:06.060 Public Health Equity. And I am thrilled to be 00:01:06.060 --> 00:01:09.799 joined by my longtime friend, former UNC Gillings 00:01:09.799 --> 00:01:12.540 classmate and fellow believer in justice -centered 00:01:12.540 --> 00:01:16.760 public health, Dr. Paul J. Fleming. Paul is an 00:01:16.760 --> 00:01:19.219 associate professor of health behavior and health 00:01:19.219 --> 00:01:21.840 equity at the University of Michigan School of 00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:25.040 Public Health, a committed researcher and educator, 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:28.379 and the author of the powerful upcoming book, 00:01:28.599 --> 00:01:32.519 Imagine Doing Better, Why Policies Backfire. 00:01:32.959 --> 00:01:35.760 and How Prevention Thinking Can Change Everything, 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:39.400 which you can pre -order now through bookshop 00:01:39.400 --> 00:01:44.900 .org or directly from Hopkins Press. Paul and 00:01:44.900 --> 00:01:47.019 I first connected as doctoral students in the 00:01:47.019 --> 00:01:49.519 Department of Health Behavior at UNC Chapel Hill, 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:53.980 bonding over big ideas, shared curiosity, and 00:01:53.980 --> 00:01:57.000 a drive to change how we approach public health. 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.519 His journey from growing up in Glen Ellyn, Illinois, 00:02:01.230 --> 00:02:04.329 to working on Medicaid policy, to serving in 00:02:04.329 --> 00:02:07.810 the Peace Corps in Nicaragua, has given him a 00:02:07.810 --> 00:02:10.569 front row seat to understanding how poverty, 00:02:10.750 --> 00:02:14.469 politics, and power shape the health of entire 00:02:14.469 --> 00:02:17.629 communities. Paul's framework for prevention 00:02:17.629 --> 00:02:21.169 thinking is both simple and radical. It starts 00:02:21.169 --> 00:02:24.789 with root cause analysis, asking why problems 00:02:24.789 --> 00:02:27.870 like violence, chronic illness, or educational 00:02:27.870 --> 00:02:32.000 inequities exist in the first place. Then it 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.699 prioritizes primary prevention, stopping harm 00:02:35.699 --> 00:02:39.759 before it begins. And most importantly, it centers 00:02:39.759 --> 00:02:42.780 the voices and needs of the people most impacted. 00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:46.939 Paul draws inspiration from the disability rights 00:02:46.939 --> 00:02:49.960 movement's powerful principle, nothing about 00:02:49.960 --> 00:02:54.840 us. Without Us, a rallying cry from South African 00:02:54.840 --> 00:02:58.139 disability activists that emphasizes the right 00:02:58.139 --> 00:03:01.520 of impacted communities to shape decisions affecting 00:03:01.520 --> 00:03:04.580 their lives. Here's why this conversation matters 00:03:04.580 --> 00:03:08.759 now more than ever. Chronic illnesses make up 00:03:08.759 --> 00:03:14.199 90 % of America's $4 .5 trillion healthcare costs, 00:03:14.360 --> 00:03:19.219 draining $168 billion in lost productivity each 00:03:19.219 --> 00:03:23.430 year. and projected to hit $2 trillion by 2050, 00:03:23.750 --> 00:03:26.610 according to Centers for Disease Control and 00:03:26.610 --> 00:03:29.870 Prevention. Racial and ethnic health inequities 00:03:29.870 --> 00:03:34.750 cost the U .S. economy $451 billion in 2018 alone 00:03:34.750 --> 00:03:40.569 and could top $1 trillion by 2040 if left unchecked, 00:03:40.569 --> 00:03:43.009 according to the National Institute of Health, 00:03:43.129 --> 00:03:46.569 as well as Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts. 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.439 Meanwhile, current federal proposals could slash 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:54.620 over $1 trillion for Medicaid, putting 10 to 00:03:54.620 --> 00:03:57.419 12 million people at risk of losing coverage, 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:00.900 closing rural hospitals and forcing families 00:04:00.900 --> 00:04:03.819 to choose between food and life -saving care, 00:04:04.099 --> 00:04:07.639 according to reports by Axios and the Wall Street 00:04:07.639 --> 00:04:10.400 Journal. These are not just abstract numbers. 00:04:10.539 --> 00:04:13.479 These are the lived realities of our neighbors, 00:04:13.819 --> 00:04:18.160 friends and families. In this series, we're asking, 00:04:18.300 --> 00:04:22.319 what if we stopped patching broken systems and 00:04:22.319 --> 00:04:26.160 started building ones that heal? What if we rewarded 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.639 care instead of punishment? And what's possible 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.220 when we lead with imagination, equity and collective 00:04:33.220 --> 00:04:36.459 action? Whether you're a student, policymaker, 00:04:36.740 --> 00:04:40.000 health professional or community advocate, this 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:42.259 series will challenge you to think differently 00:04:42.259 --> 00:04:46.069 about what public health can be. and how we all 00:04:46.069 --> 00:04:49.290 have a role in creating it. If you want to follow 00:04:49.290 --> 00:04:52.329 Paul's work, pre -order his book, or subscribe 00:04:52.329 --> 00:04:56.189 to his thought -provoking newsletter, visit pjfleming 00:04:56.189 --> 00:05:02.569 .com and pjfleming .com slash newsletter. You 00:05:02.569 --> 00:05:05.470 can also find him on LinkedIn and Twitter at 00:05:05.470 --> 00:05:10.209 pfleming3. Let's move beyond the band -aid and 00:05:10.209 --> 00:05:13.350 imagine what's truly possible in this discussion. 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:16.360 Paul, you know, we have been looking forward 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:20.399 to this conversation for quite some time. Oh, 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:22.740 my goodness. I'm so glad to have you with me 00:05:22.740 --> 00:05:25.959 on questions you didn't ask for the first time. 00:05:26.000 --> 00:05:29.040 I'm not going to say it's the last. Well, I'm 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:33.660 excited to be here. Great. Great. So share with 00:05:33.660 --> 00:05:37.220 me and my audience. Why? Why did you agree to 00:05:37.220 --> 00:05:42.199 be on this show? Questions you didn't ask. Well, 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:45.339 of course, I would want to be on this show. You 00:05:45.339 --> 00:05:47.480 know, one of the things I think listeners should 00:05:47.480 --> 00:05:51.720 know is we go way back, right? So I remember 00:05:51.720 --> 00:05:54.560 some wonderful conversations that we had when 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:57.300 we were in grad school together. And I've been 00:05:57.300 --> 00:05:59.720 seeing and listening to your podcast ever since 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:03.379 you started it. And so the invitation and opportunity 00:06:03.379 --> 00:06:07.000 to come chat with you again on here, I couldn't 00:06:07.000 --> 00:06:10.500 pass it up. I agree. I agree. That's one of the 00:06:10.500 --> 00:06:12.600 things I've been looking forward to. And it's 00:06:12.600 --> 00:06:14.540 just nice that we get to share these conversations 00:06:14.540 --> 00:06:17.680 more broadly because, you know, we have a lot 00:06:17.680 --> 00:06:20.519 to share and a lot to say about some really important 00:06:20.519 --> 00:06:23.300 topics that I think our audience is going to 00:06:23.300 --> 00:06:26.480 resonate with. But before we get into our expertise 00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:30.220 and our secret sauce, let's start with who you 00:06:30.220 --> 00:06:34.259 are and how you got here. So tell us about your 00:06:34.259 --> 00:06:37.269 path from growing up. to becoming a professor 00:06:37.269 --> 00:06:41.649 at the University of Michigan Go Blue School 00:06:41.649 --> 00:06:45.769 of Public Health? Thank you. I'm impressed to 00:06:45.769 --> 00:06:48.529 hear you say Go Blue as a as a Tar Heel fan. 00:06:49.149 --> 00:06:54.649 It happens. Well, you know, that's such a fun 00:06:54.649 --> 00:06:56.889 question to start with, because I think, you 00:06:56.889 --> 00:06:59.730 know, oftentimes we don't take the time to really 00:06:59.730 --> 00:07:02.860 get to know each other's origin story. And I 00:07:02.860 --> 00:07:04.899 don't know, maybe we did talk about it back in 00:07:04.899 --> 00:07:06.560 the day, but, you know, here's an opportunity. 00:07:06.879 --> 00:07:09.620 So I grew up outside of Chicago. I grew up in 00:07:09.620 --> 00:07:14.560 a suburb of Chicago called Glen Ellen. And, you 00:07:14.560 --> 00:07:17.899 know, it was a well -resourced environment. I 00:07:17.899 --> 00:07:20.259 didn't realize it at the time because it was 00:07:20.259 --> 00:07:23.740 just all I knew. But as I went on in my career 00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:27.040 and my life, I realized just, you know, how many 00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:30.990 resources were there available to me. i went 00:07:30.990 --> 00:07:33.689 to public schools that you know by and large 00:07:33.689 --> 00:07:36.910 had the resources they needed to help students 00:07:36.910 --> 00:07:40.490 succeed and you know from there i went on to 00:07:40.490 --> 00:07:43.670 the the state public university university of 00:07:43.670 --> 00:07:48.029 illinois another big ten school and And I studied 00:07:48.029 --> 00:07:51.009 political science and I studied Spanish. And, 00:07:51.009 --> 00:07:54.410 you know, I was thinking I'd make a career somewhere 00:07:54.410 --> 00:07:56.889 in the public policy realm. I wasn't really sure. 00:07:56.990 --> 00:07:59.089 I didn't have a topic I was interested in. I 00:07:59.089 --> 00:08:02.329 wasn't really sure. But I thought, you know, 00:08:02.329 --> 00:08:05.209 I'm interested in government and politics and 00:08:05.209 --> 00:08:08.050 those kinds of things. And I'd love to be a part 00:08:08.050 --> 00:08:11.990 of the policymaking process. And along the way, 00:08:12.149 --> 00:08:15.750 I, you know, I always and I think growing up, 00:08:15.750 --> 00:08:19.500 my parents instilled in me this you know this 00:08:19.500 --> 00:08:21.980 this desire to give back and and participate 00:08:21.980 --> 00:08:23.600 in your not only participate in your community 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.980 but kind of give back to the community and and 00:08:25.980 --> 00:08:28.740 help your help people that are less fortunate 00:08:28.740 --> 00:08:31.939 than you etc and so since i had been studying 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:35.580 spanish the peace corps was something that was 00:08:35.580 --> 00:08:38.120 present in my mind as i was going through college 00:08:38.120 --> 00:08:40.379 of this would be a really interesting opportunity 00:08:40.379 --> 00:08:45.299 to use the spanish that i've been learning work 00:08:45.299 --> 00:08:48.500 in communities, helping them thrive. And I was 00:08:48.500 --> 00:08:50.840 really eager to live outside the U .S. at that 00:08:50.840 --> 00:08:54.340 point. So even though I kind of had public policy 00:08:54.340 --> 00:08:56.860 in mind, I took what I thought was a little bit 00:08:56.860 --> 00:09:00.580 of a detour. I joined the Peace Corps. I spent 00:09:00.580 --> 00:09:03.379 two years as a community health volunteer in 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:08.159 Nicaragua. And that really just... That changed 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:10.320 everything for me. Of course, going to college 00:09:10.320 --> 00:09:12.659 and getting out of the place I grew up also exposed 00:09:12.659 --> 00:09:16.379 me to a broader range of experiences in the US. 00:09:16.899 --> 00:09:20.279 I met, you know, met types of people that I hadn't 00:09:20.279 --> 00:09:23.700 met before. I learned more about rural communities, 00:09:23.840 --> 00:09:26.200 urban communities, people growing up in all different 00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.440 settings. Right. So that was part of my college 00:09:28.440 --> 00:09:31.580 experience. But then really. going to be a Peace 00:09:31.580 --> 00:09:34.740 Corps volunteer and living in what was at the 00:09:34.740 --> 00:09:37.519 time the second poorest country in the Western 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:42.659 Hemisphere was was really just eye opening in 00:09:42.659 --> 00:09:47.220 the sense of you really saw what you saw, how 00:09:47.220 --> 00:09:49.320 communities came together to support each other 00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:52.039 in a way that I didn't always see in my community 00:09:52.039 --> 00:09:54.399 growing up because the resources were there and 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.360 provided for. You know, I think you really see 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:02.299 what poverty what a negative impact poverty has 00:10:02.299 --> 00:10:07.059 on people and also the the happiness and the 00:10:07.059 --> 00:10:10.419 you know the talents and everything of communities 00:10:10.419 --> 00:10:14.779 that are living in poverty and through that work 00:10:14.779 --> 00:10:17.519 though i was assigned to be a community health 00:10:17.519 --> 00:10:20.200 volunteer now i have to tell you naisha before 00:10:20.200 --> 00:10:24.360 that moment i did not care about health at all 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:30.029 i was the person who you know, didn't really 00:10:30.029 --> 00:10:32.470 like being around blood or anything like that. 00:10:33.049 --> 00:10:37.230 I didn't particularly care much about health 00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:40.210 issues. I think if you asked my friends, they 00:10:40.210 --> 00:10:43.009 wouldn't think I was particularly healthy or 00:10:43.009 --> 00:10:47.169 making very healthy choices for myself. So in 00:10:47.169 --> 00:10:49.649 a lot of ways, health and now my whole career 00:10:49.649 --> 00:10:51.769 in public health, it wasn't always an obvious 00:10:51.769 --> 00:10:54.690 place for me to go. But with the Peace Corps, 00:10:54.850 --> 00:10:57.549 they saw my background, they saw my Spanish speaking 00:10:57.549 --> 00:11:00.720 and And I did at one point do a public policy 00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.419 internship that had something to do with Medicaid. 00:11:03.779 --> 00:11:08.000 And so they said, oh, Medicaid is health. Why 00:11:08.000 --> 00:11:10.879 don't you go be a health volunteer? And so so 00:11:10.879 --> 00:11:12.980 that anyways, I worked as a community health 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:15.620 volunteer. And in the Peace Corps, you partner 00:11:15.620 --> 00:11:18.000 with local communities. You only go to communities 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.840 where you're invited in. So these are a lot of 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:23.379 lessons that I carried forward. Right. Of like 00:11:23.379 --> 00:11:27.039 the partnerships. The people have to want to 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.259 be working with you. You can't just impose yourself 00:11:29.259 --> 00:11:33.139 upon them. And then also, you know, you're working 00:11:33.139 --> 00:11:35.720 in partnership. It's not just the Paul Fleming 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:37.899 show trying to go do work in this community. 00:11:38.299 --> 00:11:40.679 I'm asking questions. I'm learning what the priorities 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:43.659 are. I'm following other people's leads. So that 00:11:43.659 --> 00:11:46.740 was really, you know, that was as we get into 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:48.440 my public health career, that was the foundation 00:11:48.440 --> 00:11:51.200 I was starting with. And I learned that I really 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:54.330 love this thing called public health. Like the 00:11:54.330 --> 00:11:58.490 opportunity to work in partnership with people 00:11:58.490 --> 00:12:03.110 to help people be healthy. It was at that moment 00:12:03.110 --> 00:12:06.110 I also learned that health isn't just about disease. 00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:08.950 It's about thriving. It's about helping people 00:12:08.950 --> 00:12:11.929 have the resources they need. It's about education 00:12:11.929 --> 00:12:14.549 and transportation. And it's about all these 00:12:14.549 --> 00:12:17.409 different things. And I really credit, you know, 00:12:17.429 --> 00:12:20.029 one of the Nicaraguan women I worked with was 00:12:20.029 --> 00:12:23.070 named Xiomara. She taught me all of that. And 00:12:23.070 --> 00:12:25.850 she was actually kind of a revolutionary in her 00:12:25.850 --> 00:12:28.250 country. I mean, a literal revolutionary participating 00:12:28.250 --> 00:12:31.789 in a revolutionary war. And she taught me this 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:34.529 ethos of health as a human right and this ethos 00:12:34.529 --> 00:12:37.929 of working and building relationships with people. 00:12:38.029 --> 00:12:40.289 And all of that really stayed with me. And so 00:12:40.289 --> 00:12:43.529 anyways, I dwell on that Peace Corps moment because 00:12:43.529 --> 00:12:48.629 it taught me so, so much. And from there is when 00:12:48.629 --> 00:12:52.029 I said, you know, okay, I've learned a lot from 00:12:52.029 --> 00:12:53.889 this experience, but I would like to get some 00:12:53.889 --> 00:12:57.070 formal training in public health. And so I went 00:12:57.070 --> 00:12:59.350 on to do a master's degree. And then at that 00:12:59.350 --> 00:13:02.549 point, I sort of realized that research was, 00:13:02.629 --> 00:13:05.309 and public health research in particular, because 00:13:05.309 --> 00:13:07.470 not all research necessarily works this way, 00:13:07.490 --> 00:13:09.850 but public health research is an opportunity 00:13:09.850 --> 00:13:14.250 to do community work and really help partner 00:13:14.250 --> 00:13:16.679 with communities to uncover. what's going to 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:18.600 work well in this community? What doesn't work 00:13:18.600 --> 00:13:20.820 well? How can we take those steps forward together? 00:13:21.340 --> 00:13:24.240 So that was the type of research that I was really 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.700 eager to learn more about. Sometimes we call 00:13:26.700 --> 00:13:28.860 that like community -based participatory research. 00:13:29.279 --> 00:13:33.039 I did some training in that. And then as I did 00:13:33.039 --> 00:13:35.620 more and more work, I was working with immigrant 00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:37.399 communities in the U .S. I was still doing a 00:13:37.399 --> 00:13:40.659 little bit of global health work. And then more 00:13:40.659 --> 00:13:43.360 and more today, I've started doing work that's 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:45.659 partnering with public health institutions, thinking 00:13:45.659 --> 00:13:49.659 about how you embed equity into that work. And 00:13:49.659 --> 00:13:52.620 so I know that's a long winded answer. And it 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:55.259 was supposed to be. Yeah. But I really think, 00:13:55.259 --> 00:13:59.059 you know, where I started, starting from a place 00:13:59.059 --> 00:14:02.080 where I did have resources and then having the 00:14:02.080 --> 00:14:04.559 opportunity, either through my training or through 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:06.500 Peace Corps or through different jobs that I 00:14:06.500 --> 00:14:10.500 had over the years to really see. the wide range 00:14:10.500 --> 00:14:14.039 of the human experience and what people are facing 00:14:14.039 --> 00:14:17.500 and just learn more about just how many communities 00:14:17.500 --> 00:14:21.299 there are in the U .S. throughout the world that 00:14:21.299 --> 00:14:24.220 don't have the resources, right? And oftentimes 00:14:24.220 --> 00:14:27.860 those things are connected. The fact that my 00:14:27.860 --> 00:14:30.440 community had resources was connected to the 00:14:30.440 --> 00:14:33.379 fact that another community didn't because we 00:14:33.379 --> 00:14:36.200 weren't distributing those resources equally, 00:14:36.399 --> 00:14:41.100 right? And so as I came to understand that my 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:46.360 privilege was connected to other people's disadvantage, 00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:50.759 that really motivated me of like, this is what 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:53.159 I want to dedicate my work to. And I know, I 00:14:53.159 --> 00:14:54.779 mean, I'm not going to solve it alone. I'm not 00:14:54.779 --> 00:14:56.940 going to be able to tackle it alone, but this 00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:59.659 is the area I want to work in for my whole life. 00:15:00.500 --> 00:15:03.019 If you're enjoying the show as much as we love 00:15:03.019 --> 00:15:06.720 creating it, consider showing your support. By 00:15:06.720 --> 00:15:10.539 buying us a cup of coffee, visit buymeacoffee 00:15:10.539 --> 00:15:17.000 .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:23.899 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. All one word. 00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:28.700 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:15:28.700 --> 00:15:31.840 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:35.039 the high quality content. you've come to expect 00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:38.320 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you for 00:15:38.320 --> 00:15:40.919 your continued support and let's keep the conversation 00:15:40.919 --> 00:15:45.759 going. I mean, it is a lifelong journey if you're 00:15:45.759 --> 00:15:51.580 going to, you know, completely follow your heart 00:15:51.580 --> 00:15:58.159 and your spirit to do this work that is not mainstream, 00:15:58.259 --> 00:16:03.659 is not popular. but is so needed, you know? And 00:16:03.659 --> 00:16:06.000 some of it is a part of, I know for me, what 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:08.440 makes me feel alive and what makes me feel human. 00:16:09.220 --> 00:16:12.919 And I definitely get that from you. I'm so glad 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:16.240 that you talked about, you know, how these different 00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:19.980 experiences exposed you to different communities 00:16:19.980 --> 00:16:24.240 and that it kind of stripped away a lot of things 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:27.179 that, like you said, you took for granted. You 00:16:27.179 --> 00:16:30.500 know, that's natural. I always... sometimes call 00:16:30.500 --> 00:16:34.840 that process of like what it is to be in innocence. 00:16:35.080 --> 00:16:38.960 I didn't realize that innocence is like in no 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.740 sense. You did not know. Right. These are things 00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:45.419 that you just did not know as a child, as an 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:48.320 adolescent, as a young adult until you became 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:52.320 or you had some sense. Right. You gained some 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:56.590 sense, some perspective. And the sense is. Not 00:16:56.590 --> 00:16:59.710 just knowing, but it's also touching, feeling, 00:16:59.809 --> 00:17:04.089 hearing, hearing, a lot of hearing, speaking. 00:17:04.349 --> 00:17:08.549 All of those senses, you know, have been activated 00:17:08.549 --> 00:17:13.150 in you. And so through that process, your whole 00:17:13.150 --> 00:17:17.650 life outlook changed. And that's just really 00:17:17.650 --> 00:17:22.269 powerful. Yeah. And I think those types of experiences 00:17:22.269 --> 00:17:26.529 can be all around us. We have we have to be open 00:17:26.529 --> 00:17:30.170 to them, you know, and I think that was the in 00:17:30.170 --> 00:17:32.690 some ways the beauty of the Peace Corps experience 00:17:32.690 --> 00:17:37.130 is they the Peace Corps itself really trains 00:17:37.130 --> 00:17:40.809 you and sets you up saying you don't have the 00:17:40.809 --> 00:17:43.470 answers. You don't know. You better go in there 00:17:43.470 --> 00:17:46.670 and listen, listen, listen, listen. Right. And 00:17:46.670 --> 00:17:49.910 so, you know, it helped really just open myself 00:17:49.910 --> 00:17:53.829 up to being able to hear it, because I do think. 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:55.920 especially as we go through our day -to -day 00:17:55.920 --> 00:17:57.960 life and if we're distracted and other things 00:17:57.960 --> 00:18:01.019 you know there may be these powerful experiences 00:18:01.019 --> 00:18:03.559 waiting in front of us but if we're not open 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.779 to it we're just going to keep moving forward 00:18:05.779 --> 00:18:10.440 in the same way so speaking of moving forward 00:18:10.440 --> 00:18:15.220 in the same way and oftentimes getting caught 00:18:15.220 --> 00:18:20.140 up in what it is that needs to be done you know 00:18:20.140 --> 00:18:23.470 i think It's important to call attention to the 00:18:23.470 --> 00:18:30.410 fact that you are a white man. You are what we 00:18:30.410 --> 00:18:34.289 consider a heterosexual cisgender man, meaning 00:18:34.289 --> 00:18:38.720 you were born male and you live as a man. That 00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:41.720 is your identity. And you are those things in 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:44.480 America. You know, that is the first thing that 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.059 someone is going to notice about you, whether 00:18:47.059 --> 00:18:49.619 they have the privilege of talking to you and 00:18:49.619 --> 00:18:51.900 getting to know you or not. And because of that, 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:56.700 that shapes the world that you engage with and 00:18:56.700 --> 00:18:59.180 interact with. But just from your own words, 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.680 how would you describe how your identity has 00:19:02.680 --> 00:19:06.660 shaped you and how you see the world? And specifically. 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:11.099 Yeah. Let's start there. Let's start there. How 00:19:11.099 --> 00:19:13.559 has it shaped you and how you see the world? 00:19:14.539 --> 00:19:17.559 Yeah. And I mean, that's another big question. 00:19:17.619 --> 00:19:19.559 You're good at throwing the big questions my 00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:23.259 way. And I know they'll keep coming. But yeah, 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:27.559 I mean, of course, our identities really do shape 00:19:27.559 --> 00:19:32.680 who we are. And so I think, you know, being a 00:19:32.680 --> 00:19:35.099 white man and that's the other thing, right, 00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:39.230 is. the way that whiteness can be invisible in 00:19:39.230 --> 00:19:42.670 this country, right? To be white is almost to 00:19:42.670 --> 00:19:45.769 not be racialized in the same way that other 00:19:45.769 --> 00:19:49.349 groups are. And so, of course, I am racialized. 00:19:49.349 --> 00:19:51.130 I am racialized as white, but I'm just saying 00:19:51.130 --> 00:19:55.109 culturally, we think of whiteness as like the 00:19:55.109 --> 00:19:58.930 absence of race. Or the default. Right, the default, 00:19:59.069 --> 00:20:04.109 exactly. The baseline. And so, frankly, I didn't... 00:20:04.319 --> 00:20:06.539 think a lot about my whiteness growing up. My 00:20:06.539 --> 00:20:10.319 town was definitely majority white, vast majority 00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:13.240 white, but not exclusively. There was definitely 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:17.740 some diversity of racial and ethnic identities, 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:21.240 but it wasn't something that was talked about 00:20:21.240 --> 00:20:24.460 much. It was very much the sort of default race. 00:20:24.619 --> 00:20:28.099 It wasn't something that I reckoned with. I thought 00:20:28.099 --> 00:20:31.759 a lot about, to be honest. So it has really been. 00:20:32.490 --> 00:20:38.150 a journey for me to recognize that I am racialized, 00:20:38.170 --> 00:20:41.630 I live in a racialized society, and that whiteness 00:20:41.630 --> 00:20:44.730 is, you know, privileged and advantaged over 00:20:44.730 --> 00:20:48.930 other racialized groups. And so even seeing the 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:51.430 lens in which the town I grew up in, right, that 00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:54.230 it was well resourced because it was predominantly 00:20:54.230 --> 00:20:57.390 white, you know, or that those things are connected, 00:20:57.630 --> 00:21:00.250 right? And that other communities that are not 00:21:00.250 --> 00:21:04.339 predominantly white. and are not resourced, it's 00:21:04.339 --> 00:21:07.599 partially due to that fact, right? So reckoning 00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:11.039 with that. And then I think being not only just 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.319 white, but a white man in our power hierarchy, 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.400 that is the pinnacle, right? So I think reckoning 00:21:18.400 --> 00:21:22.420 with, and that, yeah, I mean, just to be frank, 00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:25.339 you know, that it feels uncomfortable. I'm not 00:21:25.339 --> 00:21:28.599 trying to be at the top of the pyramid. I'm not 00:21:28.599 --> 00:21:32.779 trying to... to hold that, but it's a reality. 00:21:33.039 --> 00:21:36.160 And so I think over the years, I think I've done, 00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:39.240 I've tried to do a lot of work to understand 00:21:39.240 --> 00:21:42.279 that, understand my identity better and where 00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:45.539 it fits in. And then I think the other thing 00:21:45.539 --> 00:21:49.019 is, and I didn't mention this earlier, but actually 00:21:49.019 --> 00:21:51.180 when I was getting started in public health work, 00:21:51.440 --> 00:21:54.240 some of the work I was working on was work directly 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:57.559 with men around masculinity and the ways that 00:21:57.559 --> 00:22:02.859 masculinity can. encourage men to choose behaviors 00:22:02.859 --> 00:22:05.059 or do things that are harmful to themselves, 00:22:05.339 --> 00:22:07.940 to their partners, to their community, you know, 00:22:07.940 --> 00:22:11.460 being violent, things like that. And so that 00:22:11.460 --> 00:22:15.940 process alone really helped me unpack masculinity 00:22:15.940 --> 00:22:19.180 and patriarchy and really think deeply about 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:22.380 that. But frankly, I kind of went through that 00:22:22.380 --> 00:22:24.720 journey before I really went through a journey. 00:22:25.420 --> 00:22:27.700 thinking deeply about and trying to unpack my 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:32.140 race and racial dynamics in our society. But 00:22:32.140 --> 00:22:34.940 in some ways, thinking about it through a gender 00:22:34.940 --> 00:22:38.500 lens first really helped give me the tools and 00:22:38.500 --> 00:22:42.299 some of the language to think about how these 00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:45.980 social structures of gender and race do create 00:22:45.980 --> 00:22:49.079 power hierarchies in our society and that those 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:52.579 power hierarchies are harmful. And so that was 00:22:52.579 --> 00:22:55.839 a process that I had to go through. And, you 00:22:55.839 --> 00:23:00.079 know, I can't separate my identity from the work 00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:04.519 I do. I am a white man doing work on health equity. 00:23:05.380 --> 00:23:09.380 Much of my work partners with people in communities 00:23:09.380 --> 00:23:11.519 that have identities that are different than 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:14.940 mine. And so I think from that lens, one of the 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:18.440 approaches I take is back to, you know, a lot 00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:20.500 of listening and a lot of relationship building 00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:26.680 and a lot of... not trying to put myself at the 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:31.539 forefront, but rather understand what other people 00:23:31.539 --> 00:23:34.680 think is needed and then see how I can support 00:23:34.680 --> 00:23:37.500 moving that work forward. And I can't say that 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:39.240 I do that perfectly all the time. Absolutely 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:41.579 not. But that is, I think, you know, a place 00:23:41.579 --> 00:23:44.680 I've come to. And I think how my identity as 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:49.720 I do this equity work comes into play. Yeah, 00:23:49.819 --> 00:23:52.500 I asked that question because, you know, commonly 00:23:52.500 --> 00:23:56.259 we talk about terms like intersectionality, right? 00:23:56.380 --> 00:23:59.539 And we usually talk about it from the framework 00:23:59.539 --> 00:24:02.359 of, you know, the original author who is a Black 00:24:02.359 --> 00:24:05.880 woman. And one of the spins that I like to take 00:24:05.880 --> 00:24:08.920 on this concept of intersectionality is that, 00:24:08.920 --> 00:24:12.420 you know, even though it does help us to unfold 00:24:12.420 --> 00:24:16.579 each layer of our identity, right, which depending 00:24:16.579 --> 00:24:20.269 on who you're talking about, comes with a certain 00:24:20.269 --> 00:24:24.130 level of disadvantage right but what i've noticed 00:24:24.130 --> 00:24:27.009 and i should say and what i've noticed is that 00:24:27.009 --> 00:24:30.990 when you take that concept and you place various 00:24:30.990 --> 00:24:33.450 individuals in different settings in different 00:24:33.450 --> 00:24:37.250 communities what was a disadvantage can now become 00:24:37.250 --> 00:24:40.250 an advantage what was a privilege can you know 00:24:40.250 --> 00:24:45.829 can turn into the opposite right and i find it 00:24:45.829 --> 00:24:49.730 interesting First, I'm thankful that I have a 00:24:49.730 --> 00:24:52.250 friend like you, Paul. And I will say it, you're 00:24:52.250 --> 00:24:55.349 not the only friend, but you're a part of that 00:24:55.349 --> 00:24:58.049 community of friends of people who happen to 00:24:58.049 --> 00:25:01.589 be white. And I make that classification because 00:25:01.589 --> 00:25:04.309 there's a lot of negative connotation that comes 00:25:04.309 --> 00:25:07.049 with the white community in general, writ large, 00:25:07.210 --> 00:25:10.730 right? There's some unfortunate patterns that 00:25:10.730 --> 00:25:13.640 are associated with. the white community writ 00:25:13.640 --> 00:25:16.319 large especially from a political sense so when 00:25:16.319 --> 00:25:20.259 i think about people in my community that i can 00:25:20.259 --> 00:25:23.700 have these conversations with and be honest about 00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:26.819 i'm thankful for that because it allows me to 00:25:26.819 --> 00:25:29.720 dig a little deeper and have more understanding 00:25:29.720 --> 00:25:34.160 have a different share my perspective but also 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:38.220 like you said listen and learn and be able to 00:25:39.060 --> 00:25:41.279 unpack some of that stuff. And I think that it's 00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:43.019 really interesting too, that you talked about 00:25:43.019 --> 00:25:46.579 how better understanding your maleness, your 00:25:46.579 --> 00:25:50.099 masculinity, and not just yours, but what it 00:25:50.099 --> 00:25:54.980 is to the greater population. What are those 00:25:54.980 --> 00:25:59.819 kind of common characteristics that we associate 00:25:59.819 --> 00:26:03.880 with masculinity, whether that applies to you 00:26:03.880 --> 00:26:08.039 as an individual or not? Going through that practice 00:26:08.039 --> 00:26:12.920 and that study gave you some tools and potentially 00:26:12.920 --> 00:26:15.599 some humility that allowed you to dig a little 00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.460 deeper when it came to unpacking whiteness and 00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:23.359 how your white identity or your whiteness or 00:26:23.359 --> 00:26:27.279 however you want to call it has shaped your privilege 00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:31.940 and has shaped your opportunities. And even though, 00:26:31.980 --> 00:26:33.980 like you said, these things that we experience 00:26:33.980 --> 00:26:36.869 is not what we sign up for. You know, like you 00:26:36.869 --> 00:26:38.950 talked about, I didn't I'm not asking to be at 00:26:38.950 --> 00:26:41.470 the top of the heap, but because of this society 00:26:41.470 --> 00:26:43.930 and this culture and these labels and these values 00:26:43.930 --> 00:26:48.150 that we've placed on our identities, it's there. 00:26:49.029 --> 00:26:51.750 Right. Like I didn't sign up to be discriminated 00:26:51.750 --> 00:26:54.690 against because I'm a black woman, but it's there 00:26:54.690 --> 00:26:56.670 and I have to deal with it. And what am I going 00:26:56.670 --> 00:26:58.609 to do with it? And so that becomes the question. 00:26:59.589 --> 00:27:02.089 Yeah. Well, that point about what are you going 00:27:02.089 --> 00:27:04.089 to do with it? I mean, I think that's the other 00:27:04.089 --> 00:27:07.690 thing that. in a way motivates me is because, 00:27:07.890 --> 00:27:11.390 I mean, I'm pretty clear that part of the ways 00:27:11.390 --> 00:27:13.190 that I get to be a professor at the University 00:27:13.190 --> 00:27:16.349 of Michigan is because of privileges that I've 00:27:16.349 --> 00:27:20.759 had over the years, right? And so Being a professor 00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.000 at the University of Michigan also comes with 00:27:23.000 --> 00:27:25.700 some power, not nearly as much power as I would 00:27:25.700 --> 00:27:28.900 want. Right. But you have some. You have got 00:27:28.900 --> 00:27:31.819 no magic wand. Right. Exactly. You have some 00:27:31.819 --> 00:27:34.359 decision making. Right. You participate in decisions 00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:37.660 about admissions and scholarships. You participate 00:27:37.660 --> 00:27:40.660 in what the curriculum looks like. You participate 00:27:40.660 --> 00:27:43.660 in reviewing grants for what types of things 00:27:43.660 --> 00:27:49.700 get funded. And so if I'm not. If all of us aren't 00:27:49.700 --> 00:27:53.859 intentional about using the power that we do 00:27:53.859 --> 00:27:57.420 hold in ways that advance equity, that make our 00:27:57.420 --> 00:28:01.400 society better, that lift up people that are 00:28:01.400 --> 00:28:04.539 disadvantaged, then we're doing it wrong. I'm 00:28:04.539 --> 00:28:06.920 taking up space from somebody who could do that 00:28:06.920 --> 00:28:10.740 work, right? And so I have to be very cognizant 00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:14.089 of that, of the position that I hold. which is 00:28:14.089 --> 00:28:16.150 connected to my identity. And then what am I 00:28:16.150 --> 00:28:20.869 doing with it to undo those systems that gave 00:28:20.869 --> 00:28:27.190 me those unfair advantages? So, Paul, you and 00:28:27.190 --> 00:28:29.769 my people, my people who happen to be white, 00:28:29.930 --> 00:28:34.369 my community of brothers and sisters in this 00:28:34.369 --> 00:28:38.289 fight to advance health equity. And unfortunately, 00:28:38.490 --> 00:28:43.130 it is a fight. I hate to say it. It's a fight 00:28:43.130 --> 00:28:46.029 because there are way too many people who don't 00:28:46.029 --> 00:28:49.710 try to change anything. They're completely fine 00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:52.990 with the way things are. Actually, they'd rather 00:28:52.990 --> 00:28:56.589 fight you to keep their position of power and 00:28:56.589 --> 00:29:00.430 privilege and ease, right? I mean, I can only 00:29:00.430 --> 00:29:04.710 imagine. Like if you wanted to maximize, for 00:29:04.710 --> 00:29:07.849 those who do maximize their whiteness, who do 00:29:07.849 --> 00:29:11.690 maximize the privilege of maleness, who do maximize 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:14.289 the privilege of being white, male, and heterosexual 00:29:14.289 --> 00:29:17.569 in this society in America, like they've got 00:29:17.569 --> 00:29:21.609 it made in the shade, man. Made in the freaking 00:29:21.609 --> 00:29:25.170 shade. Why would you want to give that up? So 00:29:25.170 --> 00:29:27.930 I've got to ask you, I mean, just go there with 00:29:27.930 --> 00:29:30.289 me and my audience and tell us, why does health 00:29:30.289 --> 00:29:34.970 equity matter to you? I mean, I'm struggling 00:29:34.970 --> 00:29:37.289 to find the words because it is one of those 00:29:37.289 --> 00:29:41.869 things that it's hard to, it's hard. I mean, 00:29:41.890 --> 00:29:43.410 I think those of us who are in it, it's hard 00:29:43.410 --> 00:29:45.349 for us to imagine, well, why wouldn't you care 00:29:45.349 --> 00:29:48.150 about this, right? So that's why I was stumbling 00:29:48.150 --> 00:29:51.849 a little bit at first, but I think it matters 00:29:51.849 --> 00:29:55.150 to me because I know I'm connected to it. I think 00:29:55.150 --> 00:29:57.589 some people who are in the position of advantage 00:29:57.589 --> 00:30:01.950 don't see themselves as connected to those who 00:30:01.950 --> 00:30:04.289 are disadvantaged, right? Those who are disadvantaged, 00:30:04.789 --> 00:30:07.750 whatever's going on with them is their own thing. 00:30:08.410 --> 00:30:13.410 For me, I'm very aware that all the advantages 00:30:13.410 --> 00:30:17.509 I experience as a college professor, I'm not 00:30:17.509 --> 00:30:20.009 wealthy, but all the wealth that I experience, 00:30:20.329 --> 00:30:24.349 all the resources I have at my disposal, those 00:30:24.349 --> 00:30:28.970 are connected to the systems and they're connected 00:30:28.970 --> 00:30:31.970 to the disadvantage that others experience right 00:30:31.970 --> 00:30:35.470 so a simple example of this right like i save 00:30:35.470 --> 00:30:39.670 money on my grocery bill because there are people 00:30:39.670 --> 00:30:43.450 and workers who are under class getting low wages 00:30:43.450 --> 00:30:46.829 in this country to pick the fruits and vegetables 00:30:46.829 --> 00:30:48.910 they're not having their human rights protected 00:30:48.910 --> 00:30:53.210 they're not earning a living wage And right now 00:30:53.210 --> 00:30:57.089 they're being, you know, disappeared and deported 00:30:57.089 --> 00:30:59.950 and other things that are horrible. Right. But 00:30:59.950 --> 00:31:03.130 for me to sit here and pretend that I'm not connected 00:31:03.130 --> 00:31:06.730 to that system that has created that is just 00:31:06.730 --> 00:31:09.390 not true. Right. And that's just one small example. 00:31:09.950 --> 00:31:14.410 And so given that I'm connected in these different 00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:17.990 ways to harm that is occurring to other people. 00:31:19.079 --> 00:31:22.619 I feel a responsibility to do work that is trying 00:31:22.619 --> 00:31:27.160 to change that system. And I think that's part 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:29.920 of what lights the fire under me. And that's 00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.059 why I care. And I think, you know, for a lot 00:31:32.059 --> 00:31:35.180 of people that don't care, I do think it goes 00:31:35.180 --> 00:31:38.519 a little bit back to that innocence comment that 00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:41.339 you made earlier. Some people just haven't had 00:31:41.339 --> 00:31:44.200 the opportunity to see the ways in which these 00:31:44.200 --> 00:31:46.099 systems work and they're connected or they're 00:31:46.099 --> 00:31:49.359 not even really aware. But I think you're also 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:52.859 right that some people see it and they just want 00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:55.900 to hold on to the power. And so I think that's 00:31:55.900 --> 00:31:58.680 a different challenge for us to deal with in 00:31:58.680 --> 00:32:02.900 society. But I think, again, part of maybe how 00:32:02.900 --> 00:32:07.059 I was raised is you share. You want to share 00:32:07.059 --> 00:32:11.559 with other people, right? If I have stuff, I 00:32:11.559 --> 00:32:13.099 want to make sure other people have stuff too. 00:32:13.400 --> 00:32:15.680 If I have safety, I want other people to have 00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:18.640 safety. If I have an opportunity, I want to make 00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:23.299 sure that other people have an opportunity. Yeah. 00:32:23.700 --> 00:32:26.519 And that ripple effect. I mean, I think that 00:32:26.519 --> 00:32:29.240 it's interesting that you talked about, you know, 00:32:29.259 --> 00:32:32.839 your time at Peace Corps. And granted, you saw, 00:32:32.980 --> 00:32:36.160 I'm sure, I've never been to Nicaragua. I've 00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.880 been to other countries that are considered third 00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:43.319 world. And I've seen different levels of poverty 00:32:43.319 --> 00:32:46.319 in other countries and in the United States that 00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:48.960 blew my mind, right? And I didn't grow up with 00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:53.000 a lot of money. I grew up either very, very poor, 00:32:53.160 --> 00:32:56.259 you know, but I've seen people that grew up worse 00:32:56.259 --> 00:32:59.680 off than me, right? Like, I was like, dang, I 00:32:59.680 --> 00:33:02.500 thought we were struggling. Dang, that's deep, 00:33:02.660 --> 00:33:05.599 you know? And when you talk about that, you made 00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:10.269 sure to share. And I believe that you're sincere 00:33:10.269 --> 00:33:12.930 when you say this, because I've witnessed it 00:33:12.930 --> 00:33:17.450 myself, that the happiness wasn't necessarily 00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:20.789 contingent upon what you had in the bank or what 00:33:20.789 --> 00:33:24.569 you had on your label you had in your clothes. 00:33:24.829 --> 00:33:30.849 The creativity, the intelligence, the wisdom 00:33:30.849 --> 00:33:36.720 was not tied to those things. And I think one 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:40.680 of the things that can set people apart in seeing 00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:45.319 that sharing, not having all of it, not hoarding 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:48.519 it, hoarding it doesn't make you happy. Hoarding 00:33:48.519 --> 00:33:50.559 it doesn't necessarily make you have a better 00:33:50.559 --> 00:33:54.259 life. Sharing it and making sure that you have 00:33:54.259 --> 00:33:58.420 people to enjoy it with you, right? And making 00:33:58.420 --> 00:34:01.880 sure that everybody has something and we have 00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:07.819 people around the table with us. that tends to, 00:34:07.940 --> 00:34:11.719 in my experience, and I would love to hear your 00:34:11.719 --> 00:34:14.519 perspective on this, but in my experience has 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:18.800 made me feel rich. Yeah. I think you said it 00:34:18.800 --> 00:34:21.619 so well is that, you know, if we're thinking 00:34:21.619 --> 00:34:25.940 about as individuals, like what is going to make 00:34:25.940 --> 00:34:29.719 us feel like we have a happy and fulfilling life, 00:34:29.880 --> 00:34:36.539 then Yeah, the accumulation of money and things, 00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:42.719 it's not it, right? What makes us as humans feel 00:34:42.719 --> 00:34:47.820 happy and joyful is the connection. It is the 00:34:47.820 --> 00:34:51.059 community. And so I think in a capitalist society, 00:34:51.420 --> 00:34:54.800 we sometimes forget that the thing that we want 00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:59.079 to maximize is actually happiness and joy. Because 00:34:59.079 --> 00:35:01.460 in a capitalist society, a lot of us, including 00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:04.519 myself, get stuck on the thing we want to maximize 00:35:04.519 --> 00:35:08.739 is the money. I need more money. I need more 00:35:08.739 --> 00:35:10.960 money in my bank account. You know, if you stop 00:35:10.960 --> 00:35:13.460 and think about it, money doesn't equal joy and 00:35:13.460 --> 00:35:15.500 happiness. What we want is joy and happiness. 00:35:15.980 --> 00:35:18.739 And I think back to what you were saying about 00:35:18.739 --> 00:35:22.760 my experience in Nicaragua, you know, a lot of 00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:28.579 it is seeing the humanity in people. especially 00:35:28.579 --> 00:35:31.699 the way sometimes our news media works or the 00:35:31.699 --> 00:35:33.940 ways that we're isolated from each other in the 00:35:33.940 --> 00:35:37.019 U .S. Your vision of a different community than 00:35:37.019 --> 00:35:39.639 your own is often some sort of stereotype. It's 00:35:39.639 --> 00:35:42.840 often some reduced idea of what that community 00:35:42.840 --> 00:35:48.800 is or isn't. And the reality is no matter what 00:35:48.800 --> 00:35:52.980 human community is, there is pain and there is 00:35:52.980 --> 00:35:57.530 joy. There is creativity. There is hard work. 00:35:57.590 --> 00:35:59.889 There is the range of human experience within 00:35:59.889 --> 00:36:03.349 that community. And I think, you know, we do 00:36:03.349 --> 00:36:05.630 ourselves a disservice when we think we allow 00:36:05.630 --> 00:36:07.550 ourselves to think of a different community as 00:36:07.550 --> 00:36:10.789 somehow not as complicated as our own community 00:36:10.789 --> 00:36:13.949 or our own family or our own experience. And 00:36:13.949 --> 00:36:17.090 so absolutely people who are living in a lot 00:36:17.090 --> 00:36:20.199 of poverty. Some of them were super happy and, 00:36:20.219 --> 00:36:23.239 you know, and they made do. Right. They were 00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:25.239 like, this is what I have and I'm going to do 00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:28.679 my best. Now, don't get me wrong. Those public 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:31.719 health impacts we know about hurt them. Right. 00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:36.179 Like they experienced more health issues. Their 00:36:36.179 --> 00:36:40.000 family members died earlier than other people. 00:36:40.059 --> 00:36:42.360 Right. So it's not to say I'm not saying that 00:36:42.360 --> 00:36:44.519 they were just. happy -go -lucky people that 00:36:44.519 --> 00:36:46.179 were always happy. That's not at all what I'm 00:36:46.179 --> 00:36:49.940 saying. But the point being is that that happiness 00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:53.400 and joy and the ability to experience it is human. 00:36:53.539 --> 00:36:56.000 And so we all experience it at different points. 00:36:56.219 --> 00:37:00.760 And what we want to do is we want to maximize 00:37:00.760 --> 00:37:03.699 that. And I think people who are experiencing 00:37:03.699 --> 00:37:07.219 poverty or discrimination, they have fewer opportunities, 00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:12.849 but they still persevere and experience it. And 00:37:12.849 --> 00:37:15.329 that's a wrap on this episode of Questions You 00:37:15.329 --> 00:37:18.389 Didn't Ask. I'm Nyesha Frey, and wow, what a 00:37:18.389 --> 00:37:21.309 powerful start with Dr. Paul J. Fleming, his 00:37:21.309 --> 00:37:24.289 insights on prevention, public health, and equity. 00:37:24.889 --> 00:37:27.369 Pure gold in just the beginning of what's to 00:37:27.369 --> 00:37:30.849 come. Don't go far. Join me next time as we keep 00:37:30.849 --> 00:37:33.670 pulling back the layers in our series, Beyond 00:37:33.670 --> 00:37:36.489 the Band -Aid, Prevention, Power, and Public 00:37:36.489 --> 00:37:38.150 Health Equity. I'll see you then.