WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Hey y 'all, welcome to Questions You Didn't Ask. 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.179 Did you know that this very spot could be showcasing 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.320 your business or event? Whether it's an audio 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.460 ad on our podcast, or a visual ad on our new 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:18.100 YouTube station, or even both, we've got the 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.620 space for you. Nyesha Frey Consulting is reaching 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.420 a growing audience of over a thousand leaders 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.839 who are passionate about health equity, social 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:32.070 justice, and civil rights activism. These are 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.329 professionals just like you working across higher 00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:40.409 education, research, healthcare, nonprofit, government, 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:44.030 and even public health sectors. If you're ready 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.630 to get your message in front of a dedicated and 00:00:46.630 --> 00:00:52.469 engaged audience, send me an email at naishafrayconsultingllc 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:57.149 at gmail .com. Let's talk about how we can help 00:00:57.149 --> 00:00:59.710 you connect with the people who need to hear 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:02.829 about your services and products that advance 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:06.969 health equity and wellness. Don't miss out. Get 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.269 in the mix and let's make an impact together. 00:01:19.569 --> 00:01:22.209 Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask. I'm 00:01:22.209 --> 00:01:24.870 Naisha Frey, joined again by the brilliant Dr. 00:01:25.010 --> 00:01:28.640 Elena Roberts as we continue. Sankofa and Solidarity, 00:01:28.799 --> 00:01:31.780 uncovering Black and Native legacies for health 00:01:31.780 --> 00:01:35.219 equity. Let's dive back in. We didn't get a chance 00:01:35.219 --> 00:01:39.599 to talk about land rights, right? Even when we 00:01:39.599 --> 00:01:42.959 think about the Northeast, right? The states 00:01:42.959 --> 00:01:46.260 are really small. You start to come further down 00:01:46.260 --> 00:01:48.439 the Southeast, they start to get bigger. But 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.019 then when you move West, they're huge, right? 00:01:51.840 --> 00:01:53.920 And so one of the things that was interesting 00:01:53.920 --> 00:01:56.819 about your book was, you know, as we mentioned 00:01:56.819 --> 00:02:00.760 before, the American government found a way to 00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:06.859 impose its will on the Native nations, right, 00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:10.800 to free and emancipate their slaves, which the 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:13.900 Native nations would not have done without that 00:02:13.900 --> 00:02:19.639 power move, right? They fought it. One of the 00:02:19.639 --> 00:02:21.740 reasons why they fought it was because what came 00:02:21.740 --> 00:02:26.240 with that was the 40 acres requirement for each 00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:30.259 of the formerly enslaved people or maybe families. 00:02:30.360 --> 00:02:32.460 I don't know if it was a family unit or individuals. 00:02:32.840 --> 00:02:35.919 Feel free to clarify me. But they actually received 00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:39.099 the 40 acres. When we think about the vastness 00:02:39.099 --> 00:02:42.099 of what's on the other side of the Mississippi, 00:02:42.360 --> 00:02:48.770 that is a lot more doable. because the land mass 00:02:48.770 --> 00:02:53.090 is larger. And how you talked about how that 00:02:53.090 --> 00:02:58.949 land formation, that land acquisition or allocation, 00:02:59.090 --> 00:03:03.169 and the emancipation of those formerly enslaved 00:03:03.169 --> 00:03:07.509 Africans led to the development of states like 00:03:07.509 --> 00:03:13.210 Oklahoma. You also talked about how it was kind 00:03:13.210 --> 00:03:16.330 of a foundational element for the establishment 00:03:16.330 --> 00:03:21.430 of communities like Tulsa, right? And so can 00:03:21.430 --> 00:03:24.069 you tell my audience a little bit more about 00:03:24.069 --> 00:03:29.449 the role African and Black freedmen played in 00:03:29.449 --> 00:03:34.990 reshaping post -slavery America? And we hear 00:03:34.990 --> 00:03:41.129 about Tulsa, but we do not hear about the Black 00:03:41.129 --> 00:03:43.050 people who were formerly enslaved by Native. 00:03:43.769 --> 00:03:47.530 Can you share a little bit about how those formerly 00:03:47.530 --> 00:03:50.550 enslaved people reshaped what we know today to 00:03:50.550 --> 00:03:55.530 be America? So if we're thinking about the way 00:03:55.530 --> 00:03:58.069 like a textbook is divided, I mean, it's been 00:03:58.069 --> 00:03:59.770 a long time since I was in school, but I'm thinking 00:03:59.770 --> 00:04:01.469 about this all the time with my college students. 00:04:01.629 --> 00:04:05.110 The Civil War kind of gets a portion and then 00:04:05.110 --> 00:04:08.310 you have the kind of Western expansion portion 00:04:08.310 --> 00:04:11.009 of the book. But this is actually all happening 00:04:11.009 --> 00:04:13.590 at the same time. So during the Civil War, the 00:04:13.590 --> 00:04:16.209 United States is also thinking about expanding 00:04:16.209 --> 00:04:18.529 West. The Homestead Act is passed during the 00:04:18.529 --> 00:04:24.329 war, 1862. And so as white settlers are at the 00:04:24.329 --> 00:04:26.910 same time, you know, fighting a war in some aspects, 00:04:27.050 --> 00:04:30.430 they're also thinking about how can I kind of 00:04:30.430 --> 00:04:33.110 create my own new home somewhere in the West? 00:04:33.230 --> 00:04:34.930 West meaning, you know, west of the Mississippi 00:04:34.930 --> 00:04:39.360 River. And so for... People in Indian territory, 00:04:39.579 --> 00:04:41.540 which is what eventually becomes the state of 00:04:41.540 --> 00:04:44.720 Oklahoma, they are in what at first the United 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:46.459 States thought of as like, oh, like it's dry 00:04:46.459 --> 00:04:49.060 there. Like no one wants to live there. Fine. 00:04:49.259 --> 00:04:51.240 Native Americans, you know, move there from the 00:04:51.240 --> 00:04:53.240 Southeast. This is where we're going to push 00:04:53.240 --> 00:04:54.480 you because we don't care. We're never going 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:56.839 to move there. 20 years later, they're like, 00:04:56.899 --> 00:04:59.519 oh, actually, maybe we should move there. And 00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:03.350 so they. begin pressuring Indian nations to give 00:05:03.350 --> 00:05:05.410 up some of their land there. But it's after the 00:05:05.410 --> 00:05:07.829 Civil War that the United States says we can 00:05:07.829 --> 00:05:11.089 use basically as an excuse the fact that Native 00:05:11.089 --> 00:05:13.170 nations fought in the Civil War, some on the 00:05:13.170 --> 00:05:15.769 side of the Confederacy, and say, you know, if 00:05:15.769 --> 00:05:18.509 you want to reestablish connections and positive 00:05:18.509 --> 00:05:20.790 relationships with us, the government that you 00:05:20.790 --> 00:05:23.149 now have to deal with again, you got to give 00:05:23.149 --> 00:05:25.709 up some land. And this is how they also push 00:05:25.709 --> 00:05:28.430 through the emancipation of formerly enslaved 00:05:28.430 --> 00:05:32.680 people in these Indian nations. And so the way 00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:34.860 that Native nations owned land traditionally 00:05:34.860 --> 00:05:39.139 was communally, meaning, you know, a tribe kind 00:05:39.139 --> 00:05:42.279 of thought of a piece of land as their own and 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:44.459 individuals could settle wherever they wanted 00:05:44.459 --> 00:05:46.519 on that land and they could, you know, farm wherever 00:05:46.519 --> 00:05:49.040 they wanted. And as much as they could farm was, 00:05:49.040 --> 00:05:51.459 you know, their portion of that land. And that's 00:05:51.459 --> 00:05:53.540 what they, the five tribes, were still doing 00:05:53.540 --> 00:05:55.819 in Indian territory. But the United States didn't 00:05:55.819 --> 00:05:58.319 like that. They didn't like it as a social construct 00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.259 because they didn't like the idea that Native 00:06:00.259 --> 00:06:03.019 people weren't kind of subscribing to Native 00:06:03.019 --> 00:06:05.680 or Euro -American norms. But they also didn't 00:06:05.680 --> 00:06:07.720 like it on a political and economic level because 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.040 that meant that white people couldn't come in 00:06:10.040 --> 00:06:12.220 and kind of buy their own section of that land 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:15.139 if they wanted to. And so part of the trees that 00:06:15.139 --> 00:06:17.939 they make after the Civil War is, you know, free 00:06:17.939 --> 00:06:19.939 those Black people, make those Black people part 00:06:19.939 --> 00:06:23.079 of your nation, and then also divide that land 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:26.579 that you own. uh into individual parcels like 00:06:26.579 --> 00:06:29.079 you know white americans do we have personal 00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.540 property that's the way we make and pass down 00:06:32.540 --> 00:06:35.500 you know wealth uh we want you to do that too 00:06:35.500 --> 00:06:38.800 now and so they came in and surveyed all of this 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:42.420 huge amount of land and then they gave that well 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:44.439 they didn't give it to so they bought some of 00:06:44.439 --> 00:06:48.050 that to then use for things like the Homestead 00:06:48.050 --> 00:06:50.990 Act or things like the land runs. And then the 00:06:50.990 --> 00:06:53.389 rest of that was, it stayed within those Indian 00:06:53.389 --> 00:06:56.250 nations, except now everyone had individual title 00:06:56.250 --> 00:06:59.009 to land. So, you know, you asked about, does 00:06:59.009 --> 00:07:01.569 every individual get one or it's the family and 00:07:01.569 --> 00:07:03.550 it's every individual. So my grandfather's dad, 00:07:03.850 --> 00:07:07.560 he had a piece of land, 40 acres. All of his 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:09.759 brothers, all of his 11 brothers all had their 00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:12.279 own portions of land as well, sometimes right 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:14.319 by each other, sometimes in like random different 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.879 places. And also every Native person had the 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.339 same thing. And so that's how eventually you're 00:07:21.339 --> 00:07:23.480 able to kind of open up these various states 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:27.019 because then Indian Territory becomes two halves. 00:07:27.060 --> 00:07:29.319 So one where Indian nations are still present, 00:07:29.480 --> 00:07:31.980 one where white settlers have been allowed to 00:07:31.980 --> 00:07:34.810 live that becomes the state of Oklahoma. And 00:07:34.810 --> 00:07:37.250 then eventually the United States has enough 00:07:37.250 --> 00:07:39.490 white settlers there to then say, OK, now we 00:07:39.490 --> 00:07:41.930 want to make this a state. Native nations fight 00:07:41.930 --> 00:07:44.389 back against this. They say, you know, we want 00:07:44.389 --> 00:07:47.399 to live here as our own governments. This is 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.839 what you promised us. We are sovereign nations 00:07:49.839 --> 00:07:51.379 who have treaties with the United States going 00:07:51.379 --> 00:07:54.360 back till your very founding. They try to actually 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:55.860 create their own state. It's called the state 00:07:55.860 --> 00:07:58.399 of Sequoia. They create signatures like they 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:01.660 have conventions. At the same time, African -Americans 00:08:01.660 --> 00:08:03.879 from the United States are coming into this space 00:08:03.879 --> 00:08:05.839 and saying, you know, we want to actually build 00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:07.980 our own state here, too. Like we want to be free 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:10.000 from discrimination that we're facing in the 00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.740 U .S. South. And so there are Black politicians. 00:08:13.680 --> 00:08:16.220 There are African -American leaders, also Frederick 00:08:16.220 --> 00:08:18.379 Douglass, who are saying, you know, this is the 00:08:18.379 --> 00:08:21.279 space where we should create kind of our own 00:08:21.279 --> 00:08:24.819 our own example of what African -Americans can 00:08:24.819 --> 00:08:27.959 do once we're free. And Indian Territory really 00:08:27.959 --> 00:08:31.000 kind of becomes a battleground and also a space 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:33.460 where all these different groups are envisioning 00:08:33.460 --> 00:08:35.440 like what could be for themselves. I mean, and 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.059 white people are part of this, too. White people 00:08:37.059 --> 00:08:39.600 are coming from the South. where the hierarchy 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:42.299 that allowed for racial slavery also kept poor 00:08:42.299 --> 00:08:44.759 white people from being able to do much, like 00:08:44.759 --> 00:08:47.120 not having many opportunities as well. That's 00:08:47.120 --> 00:08:49.179 kind of always what I teach my white students, 00:08:49.279 --> 00:08:52.259 that racism also does not help you, a white person, 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:54.639 which also creates this hierarchy in which you 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:56.000 are not benefiting unless you're part of the 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.620 1%. And so really, this is, I think, a good encapsulation 00:09:00.620 --> 00:09:03.730 of what... the United States becomes because 00:09:03.730 --> 00:09:06.929 it is a fight between these three main groups, 00:09:07.370 --> 00:09:10.590 Black, Native, and white Americans over land 00:09:10.590 --> 00:09:12.929 and who has the right to claim this land, who 00:09:12.929 --> 00:09:15.149 has title to this land, who is better, who is 00:09:15.149 --> 00:09:18.590 more civilized. And so in kind of all this mess, 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:21.669 places like Tulsa's Greenwood District are able 00:09:21.669 --> 00:09:25.669 to flourish because for the time period between 00:09:25.669 --> 00:09:28.850 when it becomes the state of Oklahoma and then 00:09:28.850 --> 00:09:31.509 in the early days of the state of Oklahoma. for 00:09:31.509 --> 00:09:35.009 about a decade or two, you have still this opportunity. 00:09:35.190 --> 00:09:38.370 You still have the ability to function without 00:09:38.370 --> 00:09:40.509 all of these white settlers crowding around you 00:09:40.509 --> 00:09:43.960 with a hardened racial hierarchy. But it's when 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:46.039 you get all these white settlers and you get 00:09:46.039 --> 00:09:48.940 the might of the state and the idea that, OK, 00:09:49.019 --> 00:09:51.120 now this is a settled place. This is no longer 00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:52.980 kind of the Western frontier where anything is 00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:55.580 possible. Now we need to put into place the things 00:09:55.580 --> 00:09:57.980 that already exist on the East Coast. That's 00:09:57.980 --> 00:10:00.120 when kind of the white violence really ratchets 00:10:00.120 --> 00:10:02.159 up. And that's when you get the Tulsa massacre, 00:10:02.299 --> 00:10:03.899 because all these white people are coming here 00:10:03.899 --> 00:10:05.620 and saying, why is this black person doing better 00:10:05.620 --> 00:10:08.419 than me? If you're enjoying the show as much 00:10:08.419 --> 00:10:11.379 as we love creating it. Consider showing your 00:10:11.379 --> 00:10:16.379 support by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit buymeacoffee 00:10:16.379 --> 00:10:22.860 .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:10:22.860 --> 00:10:29.779 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. All one word. 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:34.559 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:37.700 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:10:37.700 --> 00:10:40.909 the high quality content. you've come to expect 00:10:40.909 --> 00:10:44.210 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you for 00:10:44.210 --> 00:10:46.830 your continued support. And let's keep the conversation 00:10:46.830 --> 00:10:53.269 going. Right. Right. I came out here to assert 00:10:53.269 --> 00:10:59.049 myself in order to rise above my own white poverty 00:10:59.049 --> 00:11:04.080 that enslaved me. informally on the East Coast. 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:09.080 And I definitely wanted to be seen as arriving 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:13.519 to other white folks, but I can't do that if 00:11:13.519 --> 00:11:15.519 there are Black people that are doing better 00:11:15.519 --> 00:11:22.080 than me. So the answer is destroy it. Yay. Let's 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:24.580 bomb it. Let's terrorize these people and put 00:11:24.580 --> 00:11:29.539 them in their place. So I'm saying that with 00:11:29.539 --> 00:11:32.360 a smile and I'm laughing, but obviously I'm describing 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:35.740 something that was terrible, that was horrible, 00:11:35.980 --> 00:11:39.279 that was violent, that was what we call domestic 00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:45.519 terrorism, right? And with that, you also mentioned 00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:51.600 how in that early push West, how people of African 00:11:51.600 --> 00:11:55.940 descent, right, were able to acquire massive 00:11:55.940 --> 00:12:00.820 amounts of land. With that came wealth building 00:12:00.820 --> 00:12:04.360 opportunities. And with those wealth building 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:06.480 opportunities came the development of places 00:12:06.480 --> 00:12:13.240 like Tulsa. From my somewhat limited understanding 00:12:13.240 --> 00:12:18.399 of history, acquiring that type of land was almost 00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:21.789 impossible. in the original colonies, right, 00:12:21.929 --> 00:12:26.409 on the East Coast. And so there is an assumption 00:12:26.409 --> 00:12:28.490 that I'm making, and we know what assumptions 00:12:28.490 --> 00:12:31.250 do, so I'm going to limit my assumptions, is 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:34.950 that those Black folks were doing better, right, 00:12:35.070 --> 00:12:39.669 than the people that were in the original colonies 00:12:39.669 --> 00:12:43.549 or east of the Mississippi, right? And then there's 00:12:43.549 --> 00:12:48.129 also this weird thing. Again, my brain went poof. 00:12:48.480 --> 00:12:51.899 When, you know what I'm about to say, when Frederick 00:12:51.899 --> 00:12:55.340 Douglass, our beloved and dear Frederick Douglass, 00:12:55.580 --> 00:13:01.039 revealed himself as being human, wholeheartedly 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:04.759 human, a .k .a. imperfect. Imperfect in that 00:13:04.759 --> 00:13:08.159 he was making a political statement and a political 00:13:08.159 --> 00:13:14.899 move that seemed counter to his original thesis, 00:13:15.299 --> 00:13:21.700 right? So I will leave it there and let you talk 00:13:21.700 --> 00:13:24.039 a little bit more about what his motivation was, 00:13:24.179 --> 00:13:27.440 maybe a little bit about the context in which 00:13:27.440 --> 00:13:31.100 he's making a statement about what's happening 00:13:31.100 --> 00:13:33.799 on the west side of the Mississippi and what 00:13:33.799 --> 00:13:37.179 opportunities are there. So when we talk about 00:13:37.179 --> 00:13:42.070 African -Americans and land. The, you know, the 00:13:42.070 --> 00:13:44.830 phrase, the motto, whatever, that a lot of people 00:13:44.830 --> 00:13:46.389 know, even if they don't know more of the deeper 00:13:46.389 --> 00:13:48.350 history is, you know, the idea of 40 acres and 00:13:48.350 --> 00:13:50.309 a mule. Like it's been in multiple rap songs, 00:13:50.570 --> 00:13:53.529 most recently in Kendrick Lamar's Super Bowl 00:13:53.529 --> 00:13:57.009 song, which was amazing. And this comes from 00:13:57.009 --> 00:13:59.570 the idea that, you know, African -Americans deserve 00:13:59.570 --> 00:14:02.450 something like anything after these generations 00:14:02.450 --> 00:14:06.129 of free labor in the United States. And this 00:14:06.129 --> 00:14:08.450 comes from like a real life historical incident 00:14:08.450 --> 00:14:11.899 or episode. When during the Civil War, African 00:14:11.899 --> 00:14:14.840 -Americans start basically following the United 00:14:14.840 --> 00:14:17.580 States Army as it's on its way through the South, 00:14:17.740 --> 00:14:20.960 winning, sometimes losing, winning also. And 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.299 the generals are really kind of saying, you know, 00:14:24.340 --> 00:14:27.500 we can't house all these Black people. We can't 00:14:27.500 --> 00:14:29.379 feed them. We don't even always have enough for 00:14:29.379 --> 00:14:30.919 ourselves. What are we going to do with all these 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:33.940 people? They talk to Abraham Lincoln. They talk 00:14:33.940 --> 00:14:38.320 to Ulysses S. Grant, various people. And then 00:14:38.320 --> 00:14:40.139 finally someone has the idea, well, why don't 00:14:40.139 --> 00:14:41.940 we ask African Americans what they want? Like, 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:46.799 what can we do for you guys? And a group of reverends 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.980 and other politicians or political leaders kind 00:14:49.980 --> 00:14:52.460 of say, you can give us a home. Like, you can 00:14:52.460 --> 00:14:54.960 give us our own land. Like, clearly we already 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:56.299 know how to take care of ourselves. We've been 00:14:56.299 --> 00:14:59.059 taking care of white people. And so what we want 00:14:59.059 --> 00:15:03.960 is to have something of our own. And at this 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:10.200 point, this is 1864, There are multiple slaveholders 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:16.679 who have fled their plantations, fled their plantations. 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:21.299 And in the South Carolina Sea Islands and Georgia, 00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:24.860 they say, like, can we just kind of have this 00:15:24.860 --> 00:15:27.500 land that these people are no longer living on? 00:15:27.580 --> 00:15:30.899 And the government and one of the generals, Sherman. 00:15:31.599 --> 00:15:34.220 says, you know, yes, we are going to do what's 00:15:34.220 --> 00:15:36.259 called the field order, which is kind of a, it's 00:15:36.259 --> 00:15:37.940 not an official proclamation, but it's something 00:15:37.940 --> 00:15:40.059 that's happening during wartime to make things 00:15:40.059 --> 00:15:43.559 easier, basically. And so this order basically 00:15:43.559 --> 00:15:46.240 gives them to write to like to 40 acres of land. 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:49.419 And so they're able to plant that land. They 00:15:49.419 --> 00:15:51.840 build schools with the help of people who come 00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:55.240 from the North. They build churches. And so they're 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.460 finally creating communities, you know, free 00:15:57.460 --> 00:16:00.559 from slaveholders and also from, you know, discrimination. 00:16:01.470 --> 00:16:04.809 It's great. Then after the Civil War, President 00:16:04.809 --> 00:16:07.470 Lincoln dies. President Andrew Jackson takes 00:16:07.470 --> 00:16:10.570 over or Johnson. And Johnson does not like this. 00:16:10.629 --> 00:16:12.629 Johnson, who is a southerner, is very uncomfortable 00:16:12.629 --> 00:16:15.029 with the fact that black people could have land 00:16:15.029 --> 00:16:17.269 that was taken from a white person. And so he 00:16:17.269 --> 00:16:20.350 tells Congress, you got to make them give that 00:16:20.350 --> 00:16:23.169 land back. And so for the most part, they do. 00:16:23.820 --> 00:16:26.480 So this kind of experiment that has shown that 00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:29.139 African -Americans can successfully farm, surprise, 00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:31.700 and take care of themselves still doesn't end 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:33.759 up mattering in the end because the United States 00:16:33.759 --> 00:16:37.480 is very uncomfortable with the idea of taking 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.840 private property from any white person and giving 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:43.960 it to a black person. There are still some African 00:16:43.960 --> 00:16:45.759 -Americans who are able to buy land throughout 00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:49.100 the South. There's this great book. I can't remember 00:16:49.100 --> 00:16:50.960 the name of it right now, but the author is Bria 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:55.090 Baker. And she talks about. You know, the landowners 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:56.870 throughout the South, some of whom have still 00:16:56.870 --> 00:17:01.070 passed that land down to their descendants today, 00:17:01.269 --> 00:17:03.870 which is amazing. But generally in the South, 00:17:04.049 --> 00:17:07.470 racism doesn't allow people to take ownership 00:17:07.470 --> 00:17:10.170 of land and stay on it. Usually, even if some 00:17:10.170 --> 00:17:12.609 person is able to kind of amass the capital needed 00:17:12.609 --> 00:17:15.069 to buy land, they're scared off of it because 00:17:15.069 --> 00:17:17.329 there's violence. You know, their life is threatened. 00:17:17.450 --> 00:17:19.990 The life of their family is threatened. And so 00:17:19.990 --> 00:17:22.599 they're moving north or moving west. Or they're 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:24.259 staying in the South and becoming a sharecropper. 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:27.400 But in the West, there's a different opportunity 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:29.839 because a lot of the land out there is still 00:17:29.839 --> 00:17:32.619 held by Native Americans. And white people don't 00:17:32.619 --> 00:17:34.680 respect Native Americans and their claims to 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:36.400 land in the same way they do white Americans. 00:17:36.740 --> 00:17:40.240 And so what we see with the five tribes is that 00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:44.579 sort of disrespect, not as bad as it gets with 00:17:44.579 --> 00:17:47.299 people who are in the further West, like the 00:17:47.299 --> 00:17:50.220 Pacific Northwest and then places like what is 00:17:50.220 --> 00:17:53.990 now Arizona. Montana, etc. The five tribes, because 00:17:53.990 --> 00:17:56.069 they are respected still as these, you know, 00:17:56.130 --> 00:17:58.109 quote unquote, civilized peoples, they do have 00:17:58.109 --> 00:18:01.049 treaties that allow them to sell their land to 00:18:01.049 --> 00:18:03.650 the US. So they do still make money, a low amount 00:18:03.650 --> 00:18:05.990 of money, but amount of money from that land 00:18:05.990 --> 00:18:08.529 sale, they do still have some control over that. 00:18:09.210 --> 00:18:11.769 But there is that provision that gives people 00:18:11.769 --> 00:18:15.029 like my family land, because for Republicans 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:18.089 who are in Congress and who wanted to give African 00:18:18.089 --> 00:18:20.089 Americans in the Southland, but didn't have the 00:18:20.089 --> 00:18:22.910 votes. can say, you know, well, this is Native 00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:25.269 Americans. Like, we don't care about that. Like, 00:18:25.269 --> 00:18:27.210 let's kind of do what we weren't able to do for 00:18:27.210 --> 00:18:30.069 Black people in the South here in the West. Right. 00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:32.210 And so they're able to put that in that treaty 00:18:32.210 --> 00:18:34.589 that goes through. Then you also have African 00:18:34.589 --> 00:18:36.369 -Americans who are able to kind of come together 00:18:36.369 --> 00:18:41.170 and like unite to, you know, pull their money 00:18:41.170 --> 00:18:44.210 to buy land. So a lot of the Black towns in Oklahoma, 00:18:44.490 --> 00:18:46.289 Oklahoma being the state with the most Black 00:18:46.289 --> 00:18:49.509 towns at the turn of the 20th century. That comes 00:18:49.509 --> 00:18:51.869 from, you know, Black people who have gotten 00:18:51.869 --> 00:18:55.369 wealthy and who kind of buy a whole pool of land 00:18:55.369 --> 00:18:58.970 and then subdivide that land so that African 00:18:58.970 --> 00:19:01.210 -Americans who don't have as much money can purchase 00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:04.309 that. And so this is why people like Frederick 00:19:04.309 --> 00:19:08.410 Douglass see the West really as kind of the place 00:19:08.410 --> 00:19:10.250 where land ownership is possible. Like clearly 00:19:10.250 --> 00:19:15.380 there wasn't enough kind of white. desire to 00:19:15.380 --> 00:19:17.779 actually give equality to African -Americans 00:19:17.779 --> 00:19:20.400 in the South. He sees that he's realistic. He 00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:22.039 says, maybe it's not going to happen here, but 00:19:22.039 --> 00:19:24.799 it could happen in the West because black people, 00:19:24.839 --> 00:19:26.420 you know, they know how to take care of this 00:19:26.420 --> 00:19:28.759 land. They are like you white people. They are 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.240 productive. They're smart. Like they want to 00:19:31.240 --> 00:19:34.039 farm. They want to be. you know, good citizens, 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:36.380 unlike Native Americans. And so the interesting 00:19:36.380 --> 00:19:40.000 thing about Douglas's statement is that he feels 00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:42.460 it's necessary almost to denigrate Native Americans 00:19:42.460 --> 00:19:45.019 in order to make this point about African Americans. 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:49.119 That's a wrap on this episode of Questions You 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.000 Didn't Ask. I'm Naisha Frey, and it's been a 00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:54.099 privilege to speak with award -winning author, 00:19:54.279 --> 00:19:58.160 Dr. Elena Roberts. Join us next week as we continue 00:19:58.160 --> 00:20:01.589 our series, Sankofa and Solidarity. uncovering 00:20:01.589 --> 00:20:04.569 Black and Native legacies for health equity. 00:20:04.789 --> 00:20:05.670 See you then.