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Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask. I'm
Naisha Frey. Joined again by the brilliant Dr.
Elena Roberts as we continue Sankofa and Solidarity,
uncovering Black and Native legacies for health
equity. Let's dive back in. One of the things
that we address on our show is how anti -Blackness
has also permeated globally, right? So it's not,
I think the United States kind of leads the way.
pinnacle, if you will, of what anti -Blackness
in a system and a government and institutions
looks like and how it feels and the fact that
Americans are so loud about everything. And not
only are we loud, but there's also a microscope
on America by other countries outside of. of
our borders, right, that are very interested
in what is going on or is not going on in America.
And just for the sake of conversation, because
this woman really kind of captivated me, I was
thinking about the True Detective series, Night
Country, that was, you know, depicting Alaska
with Jodie Foster and her counterpart that was
also an award -winning actress is a lady by the
name of Kali Reese, if I'm saying her name correctly.
And she's also a middleweight boxing champion
and the first indigenous American female world
champion who also happens to be from the Wampanoag
and Cape Verdean. which means she has African
heritage, maybe not African -American, but she
is a woman of African ancestry. And she is an
example of holding up her both heritage and acknowledging
her African ancestry. But it's a little different
than what we're talking about, because if she
has ancestry that's directly from Cape Verde,
then. Their struggle and their experience is
not the same as African -Americans and Native
Americans here. So she's just an interesting
person. Yeah. And if I could say something about
her, I follow her on Instagram. I find her very
interesting and cool. Much cooler than I will
ever be. But really, oh, my God. I know. I love
the little dimple. Oh, my God. Eat it up. The
Wampanoag tribe is so interesting as well because
they are one of. those nations that was accepting
runaway people for a long time. And so they have
a lot of Black ancestry. They have a lot of Black
members, them as well as the Narragansetts who
are also around there, the Pequots who are also
around there. So people in the East, like they
were, you know, of course, some of the first
people to have contact with Europeans. And so
Europeans, as they brought Africans, those were
also the first people who had contact with Africans.
And so there was a lot of intermixing before
there was. kind of the introduction of this new
racial hierarchy. Like, because of course, if
we're acknowledging that, you know, race is a
construct, we also have to acknowledge the system
of racism is built solely over time. And so the
history of Black people in those nations is different
than from my history with the Chickasaws and
those in the Southeast who adopted slavery. Like
the Wampanoags never did. The Wampanoags actually
suffered because they weren't willing to give
up their Black relatives. I think that's so important
to say again. People are complex and diverse.
Peoples and communities are complex and diverse.
And by no means are we stating in this podcast
or in this series, and I think I can speak for
you, Dr. Roberts, are you saying that all Native
American peoples had this practice, right? And
so what we're talking about is learning more
about who did under what circumstances, why,
and how does that impact us now? So let's talk
a little bit about solidarity and systems of
oppression, because we talked about how kind
of the sign of the times laid the way for your
book to be better received by a broader audience
and that we were starting as a country to face
and tackle once again anti -Blackness and anti
-Black violence. And so when we think about solidarity
and systems of oppression, would you say Consciously
or unconsciously, are Black and Native communities
aligned politically and culturally? And where
do they diverge? We tend to assume that because
we're all non -white and darker complexion and
have occupied this land for similar times, that
we have similar views. Right. That's also been
the narrative of how Native American peoples
have been portrayed and how African -American
peoples have been portrayed. Is that whether
you're talking about movies or news and media,
that somehow there are these. Maybe unsaid similarities,
you know, that because we are. kind of people
of the earth, if you will, that we have these
similar cultures or because we're oppressed that
politically we're similar. But is that true?
I mean, I got the clear impression from your
book that that's not entirely true all the time.
Definitely not entirely true all of the time.
So while after Europeans contact Native Americans
and they bring African -Americans here, well,
Africans have become African -Americans. There
are a lot of similarities in that Native Americans
are kind of the first slaves. They are the first
transatlantic slave trade. Native Americans are
brought by Columbus to Spain as laborers, but
also just kind of interesting curiosities. And
so they're kind of the first to build this foundation
that then Black people are slotted into. And
then it becomes racialized. But even after Africans
are slaves, Native American slavery continues
in the West. So in California for a long time,
Native people are enslaved. So there are certainly
similarities in their use of their labor exploitation.
But for the most part, the difference between
Native Americans and African Americans is that
Native people are fighting to not be part of
the United States, whereas African Americans
are fighting to be part of the United States.
So Native nations are fighting to be recognized
as sovereign nations, equal to the United States.
And really, they've been here longer. So they
have laws, they have... land claims that predate
any of colonial powers. And so they're, you know,
first, you know, fighting physically with colonizers,
then after that kind of is not as successful
anymore, then they're fighting legally. Once
the United States begins expanding, then there
are discussions about, you know, should Native
Americans have citizenship? With going back to
your point about the diversity of Native people,
some Native people do want citizenship. Some
Native people are like, you know, I accept. that
my tribe is no longer strong enough to fight
the might of the United States. Fine, we're going
to be part of this nation, but then we should
be treated equally. Whereas others say, no, we
are strong enough. We are economically sound
enough. We don't want to be part of your nation.
So that's why you have the eventual 1924 Indian
Citizenship Act. But even then, not all Native
people are interested in that. At the same time,
maybe the portion of this kind of struggle that
people would be more familiar with is the 60s
and 70s. So you have the Black Power Movement.
Once again, African Americans fighting for inclusion,
equality, civil rights. Native Americans are
kind of learning from the Black Power Movement.
And you have the emergence of the Red Power Movement,
where they're kind of learning similar strategies.
They're doing sit -ins. They're doing some amount
of nonviolence. But they're fighting for treaty
rights. And so treaty rights means that we know
the recognition that, again, they are part of
sovereign nations. And even now that they live
within the United States, there are certain promises
that the United States government has made to
them as citizens of a sovereign nation that don't
apply to African -Americans or other non -white
peoples. And so the kind of the struggle is always
to be recognized in their full humanity. But
there are kind of different rights that these
people are fighting for because. they came to
their interactions and contact with Europeans
in different ways. So interesting. I mean, you
can't take these facts and this history for granted.
You know, it's funny because it makes me think
about how that saying that says reality is oftentimes
stranger than fiction. You know, like you're
reading this history and learning this history.
And it is, you know, I love sci -fi and fantasy
books, you know, things like that. I love to
escape, especially at night before bed to help
me unwind and just kind of escape to another
place. And when I read and learn about these
things, sometimes it's like, this really happened.
Oh, my God, I can't believe this. And just this
concept, right, of nationhood. I think that was
one of the most interesting things about your
book, educating me about. what it was for African
people who had been enslaved by Native communities
or Native tribes and that their citizenship or
lack thereof had to do specifically with these
five tribes, had to do with whether or not they
could be a citizen of that tribal nation as opposed
to being a citizen of America, which would make
them African -Americans. Can you talk a little
bit more about that? I mean, this kind of like.
blows my mind in terms of the concept of what
we even think of as it relates to what is America?
What are our 50 states? Where do they reside?
Is America like a Swiss cheese thing? You know,
it's like it, my brain just goes, I'm like that
emoji, you know? So you don't have to answer
all those questions, but I think you get the
feel for what I'm getting at. Hmm. There have
been lots of conversations about what makes an
African -American maybe since Obama was running
for president because it was like, well, is he
African -American? His dad is African and his
mother is white American. Does that mean African
-American? Or if a person immigrates nowadays
from Africa and they come here, are they an African
-American? And so the distinction I try to make
in my book between the people I study in African
-Americans is that if you are living in a sovereign
Indian nation, you're not African -American because
you're not under the jurisdiction of the United
States. And I've gotten some pushback from that,
but I think that's important to me because it
establishes that the ties these people have are
to Native American traditions. Like this is the
language they're hearing around them in their
houses. This is the food they're cooking for
their slave owners. They're going on removal
with their Indian owners because they're living
in a nation that's being forced to move by the
United States. And so the... The kind of more
political angle of my work is that I'm always
trying to emphasize this connection, because
then after the Civil War, after these tribes
have fought for either the United States or the
Confederacy, the Confederacy is lost. The United
States comes to them and says, you need to get
rid of slavery because we've gotten rid of slavery
and you need to free your slaves. Yes. Like after
they force Native people almost to start slavery,
then they're like, actually, now you need to
get rid of that now that we said so. But we're
not going to do it. That part. You do it. We're
not going to give equal rights to everyone, but
you do that now. This is when you have lots of
discussions in these Indian nations about are
we a nation that's just about ancestry, about
quote -unquote blood, or can we allow people
into our nations because of a treaty, a political
agreement? And Native nations really have always
allowed people who are not this certain tribe
by blood, quote unquote, because of war. Like
so many tribes would adopt people or they would
go to war, take people captive. Those people
would become part of their nation. So really
it's actually more traditionally native to adopt
people and to have them part of your tribe. So
that's one kind of part of the argument. But
the other part of the argument is that if a group
of people have been in your nation doing labor
that has created your society, then, you know,
Don't they deserve at least equal rights and
citizenship in that nation after emancipation?
And so this continues to be a relevant conversation
because today it's only the Cherokee Nation who
has given equal rights to the descendants of
the Black people enslaved in their nations. Every
other nation has made some sort of argument that
these people really aren't Indian, so they don't
deserve citizenship. And it gets around this
kind of ethical question of, you know. Maybe
you can do this because of your treaty or because
you're a sovereign nation, but that doesn't mean
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going. My brain, my brain. This is why I'm such
a fangirl of you because I love it. When I get
to interact with people, you, and others like
you who share such profound insight and knowledge
about humans, you know, I have a psychology major,
so I love that stuff. So psychology, sociology,
history, all that good stuff, public health,
like, let's do it. And you're bringing up so
many points because a part of what you talked
about, pre -colonialism. Native Americans. And
let's be clear for our audience. Who are the
specific five tribes that we're talking about?
I'm going to back up a little bit. Who are the
specific five tribes that we're talking about?
And why are they considered the five tribes?
So the nations that my ancestors were enslaved
in were the Chickasaw and Choctaw nations. Then
there were the Cherokees, the largest Indian
nation today. Then there were the Creeks, also
called Muscogees, and the Seminoles. So I call
them the five tribes because it's kind of a sanitized
version of what they were called in the mid 1700s,
which was the five civilized tribes. And they
were considered civilized, different from other
Indian nations by the United States government.
partly because they adopted slavery, but also
because they made other changes to their nation.
So they started kind of dressing more like Europeans.
They changed the way they did agriculture. So
they were already farming, but they switched
it up to adhere to European gender norms. Native
women traditionally actually did the farming,
but Europeans didn't like that. They said, you
know, a man should be the one out there doing
that. And so now they change it so that men did
the farming. They started raising things like
cows. They adopted horses. They sent their children
to European and American schools to be educated.
They started speaking English. They created a
constitution and a government modeled on that
of the United States. So each of these five nations
from at least the early 1800s had their own judicial
branch, legislative branch, executive branch.
So there were many things that they did to...
partly to survive because, you know, they're
dynamic people. They're not just stuck in the
past. Like maybe some people think about Native
Americans, but also as a way to be treated better.
Like they realize this will help us to an extent
be more accepted. These compromises, right? And
like you said, being a dynamic people, right?
So every community is going to evolve. you know,
with history, with time, with technology, with
new influences and what have you. But also there
is a life and death quotient here, right? There
is a political and violent physical pressure
to make some really difficult decisions that
they might not otherwise have made, right? So
when I think back to, you know, what you said
earlier about before, and I'm kind of... putting
my own imagination into this. So correct me if
I'm wrong. So before the colonial presence, European
presence, if native groups, native nations, native
tribes had conflict with other native tribes
and one overpowered the other, right? So there's
going to be a winner and a loser. They would
take people in, you know, as slaves, as, you
know, prisoners of war, what have you. and acculturate
them into their nation and then they would become
you know a part of that nation who won right
and so this idea of citizenship for black people
the fact that there's a struggle with that to
me indicates that the struggle is there not because
they didn't know anything about slavery before
but because there is this sentiment of anti -blackness
and as you mentioned Race was a construct that
was developed over time specifically for the
benefit of the establishment of the United States
of America. And so when we think about, you know,
this whole nationhood question, this whole citizen
question, what is an African American? What is
an African Native person or Indian person? You
know, it's like. There's a deeper question as
to why Cherokee of those five tribes are the
ones who resolved it to say, okay, yes, we have
Black people in our community that have been
here for generations who were formerly enslaved
and now deserve to have the rights of all the
other Cherokees in this nation. And so that's
interesting that they were able to come to that
understanding and agreement, and I'm sure it
was probably hard fought. but that the other
four of the five tribes did not. So it's just
a point of conversation. I don't know if you
want to make any clarifications about that. Well,
so going back to pre -contact, like just like
we see with. you know the romans who have been
depicted in a million things like you know these
different tribes in the germanic region um or
what is now italy yeah they they would go to
war over resources or land or just because they
wanted to and yeah they would take people captive
and that's the same thing that happened in north
america there are basically three things that
could happen to you if you got taken captive
one you were killed ritualistically because warriors
believe that if they killed someone in this way
they could absorb their power. So the Chickasaws
were kind of especially horrible in that they
would like, I don't know how graphic I want to
be, like they would tie a person to like a stake,
burn them alive. Oh wow. It's crazy. So that's
number one. That's the one you don't want. But
that's what happened to most men because they
were seen as threatening. Or you could be taken
in as a captive and you could be captive forever.
Like always kind of this lower rung of society.
You would have to have like a different hairstyle.
You would have things that differentiated yourself
from people in that society. Or number three,
you could be totally adopted, usually to kind
of replace a dead loved one. So like a mother
might be like, you know, my son just died. I'd
really like to take this, you know, young boy
who's a captive and make him my son symbolically.
And then you would be totally accepted. Or women
would marry into the tribe and then be accepted.
And yes, so that is a foundation in which it
would seem like, oh, like, of course, when they
have black slaves, like it would make sense to
them that they're kind of just part of their
nation. And that was how it was at first. But
it changes over time. And one of these five tribes
has a slightly different history, the Seminoles.
Some people know the Seminoles because they had
various wars with the United States. And so the
Seminoles in Florida fought for. almost 50 years
to stop the United States from being able to
move into their space in Florida. And part of
the people who fought for them were Black people
who had run away from various places in Georgia,
South Carolina, and been kind of accepted not
as part of their tribe, but kind of their own
tribe. So they were called the Black Seminoles,
not because they necessarily intermarried with
Seminoles, but because they were kind of protected
by them and accepted by them. But after the Seminoles,
some of them are forced to move to Oklahoma.
That's when the Seminoles kind of change up and
then they become more like the other four tribes,
holding Black people as slaves. So those people
who went with them didn't come as slaves. But
afterward, they were like, oh, we see what everyone
else is doing here. You know, we kind of like
this. So you see how it can infiltrate like this
idea of race and racism. It's horrible. It's
horrifying, honestly. It's like a virus. That's
a good way of thinking about it, yes. So that's
very clear in the way you then hear about the
five tribes talking about accepting Black people.
Because, yeah, they will go around in circles
to make it seem as though they've never really
done this. They've never really taken people
who aren't of their own tribe. And it's like,
well, that's not true. We all know that that's
not true. But because they're Black. they're
willing to say that. Whereas white people and
white Indians are accepted in a way that Black
Natives are not. Yeah. That was also a very interesting
part of your book about, especially when it came
to Native citizenship, and I believe it was the
Dawes Act, if I'm correct, where the way that
And even, what is that new movie that just came
out that got all this critical? Killers of the
Flower Moon. That movie. That movie. And watching
that movie, and I had a lot of emotional reaction
to that movie. One, because it's an emotional
movie, right? But two, because of the political
nuance of the movie and what it said about a
brat. you know, the broader virus of racism,
right? And how this played out in terms of taking
people's lands, taking people's wealth, and they're
actually like killing, like openly plotting and
killing people to do it, you know, marrying people
with the intention of killing them after the
baby, you know, so that they could keep the land
claim or keep the native. And having that be
a pattern among white people in different tribes,
I imagine. And then when you look at the connection
of the people of African descent who were enslaved
within the Native communities and the Native
communities' governments, their judicial system,
their elected officials, their response to Black
people was totally different. And I'm like, again,
I'm open to learning new things. Always open
to learning new things. My show is called Questions
You Didn't Ask. I'm here to learn. But from my
recollection, Black people never inflicted that
type of violence on Native peoples. So what's
the problem? I mean, the question I was asked
by multiple friends after they watched that movie
was, why did these women marry these white men
when they know that this is happening around
them? Yes, people weren't necessarily getting
murdered at the beginning, but there were stories
like galore in almost every Indian nation that
had land and especially nations that had, you
know, mineral or natural resources under that
land that a white man would marry you and then
try to take your claim. I know Martin Scorsese
has said that he didn't feel like that was kind
of his story to tell, kind of going into Mali's
motivations or Native women's motivations. Like,
that is the question for Native communities,
honestly. Like, why would you still marry these
men? And why did you marry them historically?
Like, even before that, there were white men
marrying to these tribes. And why did you continue
after that marrying to these tribes? Like, yes.
Like, Disney Pocahontas, it has a line, like,
these white men are dangerous. I can't watch
Pocahontas, by the way, but that's a whole other
thing. But it's not really. It's actually the
same thing. i show it to my students as a learning
tool yes we analyze it bless you that's the one
disney movie i won't even let my daughter watch
but anyway go ahead maybe i will at some other
time and we can unpack it but but no i mean the
fear about black people that you see kind of
in the same period the early 1900s is what's
going on in the movie is more that Oh, like,
what if Black people marry into the tribe and
then overrun us because there are more African
-Americans than there are Native people? Or what
if there are Black people who marry into the
tribe and then the government no longer sees
us as Native? They see us as Black. And this
is honestly, as a historian, it's a valid fear
because the way Black identity and Native identity
work are like the opposite sides of a coin, meaning.
The more African -Americans there are in white
society during slavery, the better, because then
you have more people who are considered slaves.
And that's great. You don't have to recognize
them as human beings at all. Whereas afterward,
the idea with what I know most of your listeners
know is the one drop rule. The idea is that even
if we have created created all these African
-Americans who have white ancestry because of
sexual abuse and assault, we can still consider
them black and we can still discriminate against
them if they even have one African ancestor.
Native people, it's the opposite. Because the
less Native people you have, the fewer land claims
you have. So the more land the government can
take. And so if you create the idea that if you
have white ancestor, if you have Black ancestor,
you're not really Native anymore, then you can
scare Native people. And so it's all like just
kind of this identity creation like of the United
States meant to fearmonger and divide. It also
made me have an aha moment as well, reflecting
on the first powwow that I went to, which if
I'm remembering correctly, was in North Carolina,
which is my home state. And I looked around and
for me, it was difficult to find what looked
like Native American people or what I thought
Native American people looked like. To me, it
looked like white people playing dress up and
I was concerned. But then I learned. No, those
are those are Native American people. And I said,
oh, OK. You know, so I had to make an adjustment
in my mind, a mental adjustment in that just
again, the whiteness was less threatening for
them as a nation in some respects. And in other
respects, it was extremely threatening. But the
the gamble. that they were willing to take was
that we can benefit more from one white drop
as opposed to one black drop. And I cannot necessarily,
I mean, I can think on it some more, but blame
is not what comes to my mind, right? Blame is
not what comes to my mind. The insidious nature
of the oppressor and this mental. virus of racism
and institutionalized racism is really where
my brain goes when it comes to blame. So have
you seen any strategies that can help build genuine,
accountable solidarity between these communities?
Have you seen any of these examples or have you
even imagined in your creative moments of thinking
of the world without any barriers. What I have
seen so far is primarily visibility, like Native
organizations or Native folks who will use their
own kind of identity as people who are accepted
as Native, either, you know, their they're non
-white and they kind of look like the stereotype
of a Native person or they are part white but
they're enrolled and they'll kind of say, you
know, like, look, I accept my Black brothers
and sisters and, you know, here is a Black and
Native, like, artist or a Black and Native scholar
or I'm putting on an event at my local, you know,
library or whatever where I'm talking about Black
and Native history in my community. Like, things
like that where people... are educating people
who don't already know that Black history is
in some way part of their nation's story. And
then also just kind of normalizing it, like that
it shouldn't be weird to see a Black slash Black
Native person at a powwow or at a local event
because, you know, chances are at least one person
in your tribe has married a Black person or reproduced
with a Black person. There are more and more
people who look like me in Native communities.
It's just that for a long time they weren't accepted.
And so maybe they didn't. identify or kind of
look toward that part of their identity to be
accepted and so I think the more that happens
the more it is considered okay in those communities
like to even have a relationship or a friendship
with a Black person but then also to acknowledge
historical relationships and interactions with
people of African descent and then the second
part of that which is the harder part is getting
tribal governments to kind of acknowledge and
reckon with that history. Because even if individuals
in tribal governments accept, you know, maybe
we've been racist in the past, like maybe there
are things we could improve on. As government
heads, they are very unlikely to ever say it
publicly, I have found, because they're afraid
of, you know, sharing those casino revenues or...
having the influx of Black citizens who becomes
a larger number than their smaller number of
tribal citizens. Like there are lots of ways
that fears from the 1900s also are reproducing
today. And I've realized it's really, it's similar
to the United States, like in that it's being
tribal nations are just kind of very big bureaucracies.
And it takes... a large number of people within
those bureaucracies to push them to change. That's
a wrap on this episode of Questions You Didn't
Ask. I'm Naisha Frey, and it's been a privilege
to speak with award -winning author, Dr. Elena
Roberts. Join us next week as we continue our
series, Sankofa and Solidarity, uncovering Black
and Native legacies for health equity. See you
then.