WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Hey y 'all, welcome to Questions You Didn't Ask. 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.179 Did you know that this very spot could be showcasing 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.320 your business or event? Whether it's an audio 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.460 ad on our podcast, or a visual ad on our new 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:18.100 YouTube station, or even both, we've got the 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.620 space for you. Nyesha Frey Consulting is reaching 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.420 a growing audience of over a thousand leaders 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.839 who are passionate about health equity, social 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:32.070 justice, and civil rights activism. These are 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.329 professionals just like you working across higher 00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:40.409 education, research, healthcare, nonprofit, government, 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:44.030 and even public health sectors. If you're ready 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.630 to get your message in front of a dedicated and 00:00:46.630 --> 00:00:52.469 engaged audience, send me an email at naishafrayconsultingllc 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:57.149 at gmail .com. Let's talk about how we can help 00:00:57.149 --> 00:00:59.710 you connect with the people who need to hear 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:02.829 about your services and products that advance 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:06.969 health equity and wellness. Don't miss out. Get 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.269 in the mix and let's make an impact together. 00:01:19.450 --> 00:01:22.109 Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask. I'm 00:01:22.109 --> 00:01:24.760 Naisha Frey. Joined again by the brilliant Dr. 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:28.560 Elena Roberts as we continue Sankofa and Solidarity, 00:01:28.680 --> 00:01:31.680 uncovering Black and Native legacies for health 00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:34.099 equity. Let's dive back in. One of the things 00:01:34.099 --> 00:01:37.780 that we address on our show is how anti -Blackness 00:01:37.780 --> 00:01:42.480 has also permeated globally, right? So it's not, 00:01:42.599 --> 00:01:45.299 I think the United States kind of leads the way. 00:01:46.010 --> 00:01:48.909 pinnacle, if you will, of what anti -Blackness 00:01:48.909 --> 00:01:51.689 in a system and a government and institutions 00:01:51.689 --> 00:01:54.769 looks like and how it feels and the fact that 00:01:54.769 --> 00:01:58.629 Americans are so loud about everything. And not 00:01:58.629 --> 00:02:01.209 only are we loud, but there's also a microscope 00:02:01.209 --> 00:02:06.209 on America by other countries outside of. of 00:02:06.209 --> 00:02:08.490 our borders, right, that are very interested 00:02:08.490 --> 00:02:11.490 in what is going on or is not going on in America. 00:02:11.569 --> 00:02:13.870 And just for the sake of conversation, because 00:02:13.870 --> 00:02:16.969 this woman really kind of captivated me, I was 00:02:16.969 --> 00:02:19.830 thinking about the True Detective series, Night 00:02:19.830 --> 00:02:23.500 Country, that was, you know, depicting Alaska 00:02:23.500 --> 00:02:27.240 with Jodie Foster and her counterpart that was 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:30.560 also an award -winning actress is a lady by the 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:33.560 name of Kali Reese, if I'm saying her name correctly. 00:02:33.819 --> 00:02:36.680 And she's also a middleweight boxing champion 00:02:36.680 --> 00:02:40.520 and the first indigenous American female world 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:45.460 champion who also happens to be from the Wampanoag 00:02:45.460 --> 00:02:49.099 and Cape Verdean. which means she has African 00:02:49.099 --> 00:02:53.219 heritage, maybe not African -American, but she 00:02:53.219 --> 00:02:57.979 is a woman of African ancestry. And she is an 00:02:57.979 --> 00:03:03.539 example of holding up her both heritage and acknowledging 00:03:03.539 --> 00:03:06.460 her African ancestry. But it's a little different 00:03:06.460 --> 00:03:09.259 than what we're talking about, because if she 00:03:09.259 --> 00:03:12.439 has ancestry that's directly from Cape Verde, 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.280 then. Their struggle and their experience is 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:17.300 not the same as African -Americans and Native 00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:19.780 Americans here. So she's just an interesting 00:03:19.780 --> 00:03:22.120 person. Yeah. And if I could say something about 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:24.080 her, I follow her on Instagram. I find her very 00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.639 interesting and cool. Much cooler than I will 00:03:26.639 --> 00:03:29.819 ever be. But really, oh, my God. I know. I love 00:03:29.819 --> 00:03:33.340 the little dimple. Oh, my God. Eat it up. The 00:03:33.340 --> 00:03:37.240 Wampanoag tribe is so interesting as well because 00:03:37.240 --> 00:03:40.250 they are one of. those nations that was accepting 00:03:40.250 --> 00:03:43.310 runaway people for a long time. And so they have 00:03:43.310 --> 00:03:45.270 a lot of Black ancestry. They have a lot of Black 00:03:45.270 --> 00:03:48.370 members, them as well as the Narragansetts who 00:03:48.370 --> 00:03:50.270 are also around there, the Pequots who are also 00:03:50.270 --> 00:03:53.550 around there. So people in the East, like they 00:03:53.550 --> 00:03:55.150 were, you know, of course, some of the first 00:03:55.150 --> 00:03:57.650 people to have contact with Europeans. And so 00:03:57.650 --> 00:03:59.909 Europeans, as they brought Africans, those were 00:03:59.909 --> 00:04:02.189 also the first people who had contact with Africans. 00:04:02.310 --> 00:04:04.830 And so there was a lot of intermixing before 00:04:04.830 --> 00:04:07.599 there was. kind of the introduction of this new 00:04:07.599 --> 00:04:09.759 racial hierarchy. Like, because of course, if 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:11.060 we're acknowledging that, you know, race is a 00:04:11.060 --> 00:04:13.240 construct, we also have to acknowledge the system 00:04:13.240 --> 00:04:16.720 of racism is built solely over time. And so the 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:19.620 history of Black people in those nations is different 00:04:19.620 --> 00:04:22.819 than from my history with the Chickasaws and 00:04:22.819 --> 00:04:25.079 those in the Southeast who adopted slavery. Like 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:26.959 the Wampanoags never did. The Wampanoags actually 00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:29.300 suffered because they weren't willing to give 00:04:29.300 --> 00:04:32.139 up their Black relatives. I think that's so important 00:04:32.139 --> 00:04:36.600 to say again. People are complex and diverse. 00:04:37.000 --> 00:04:40.360 Peoples and communities are complex and diverse. 00:04:40.420 --> 00:04:43.759 And by no means are we stating in this podcast 00:04:43.759 --> 00:04:46.899 or in this series, and I think I can speak for 00:04:46.899 --> 00:04:49.500 you, Dr. Roberts, are you saying that all Native 00:04:49.500 --> 00:04:52.579 American peoples had this practice, right? And 00:04:52.579 --> 00:04:55.220 so what we're talking about is learning more 00:04:55.220 --> 00:04:58.319 about who did under what circumstances, why, 00:04:58.579 --> 00:05:02.160 and how does that impact us now? So let's talk 00:05:02.160 --> 00:05:04.420 a little bit about solidarity and systems of 00:05:04.420 --> 00:05:07.259 oppression, because we talked about how kind 00:05:07.259 --> 00:05:10.579 of the sign of the times laid the way for your 00:05:10.579 --> 00:05:14.920 book to be better received by a broader audience 00:05:14.920 --> 00:05:18.259 and that we were starting as a country to face 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:22.699 and tackle once again anti -Blackness and anti 00:05:22.699 --> 00:05:26.319 -Black violence. And so when we think about solidarity 00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:31.350 and systems of oppression, would you say Consciously 00:05:31.350 --> 00:05:34.129 or unconsciously, are Black and Native communities 00:05:34.129 --> 00:05:38.230 aligned politically and culturally? And where 00:05:38.230 --> 00:05:45.009 do they diverge? We tend to assume that because 00:05:45.009 --> 00:05:50.730 we're all non -white and darker complexion and 00:05:50.730 --> 00:05:56.610 have occupied this land for similar times, that 00:05:56.610 --> 00:06:02.300 we have similar views. Right. That's also been 00:06:02.300 --> 00:06:05.279 the narrative of how Native American peoples 00:06:05.279 --> 00:06:08.560 have been portrayed and how African -American 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:11.160 peoples have been portrayed. Is that whether 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.639 you're talking about movies or news and media, 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:20.779 that somehow there are these. Maybe unsaid similarities, 00:06:21.420 --> 00:06:24.410 you know, that because we are. kind of people 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:27.449 of the earth, if you will, that we have these 00:06:27.449 --> 00:06:31.209 similar cultures or because we're oppressed that 00:06:31.209 --> 00:06:33.509 politically we're similar. But is that true? 00:06:33.670 --> 00:06:36.170 I mean, I got the clear impression from your 00:06:36.170 --> 00:06:39.209 book that that's not entirely true all the time. 00:06:39.649 --> 00:06:41.970 Definitely not entirely true all of the time. 00:06:42.329 --> 00:06:46.189 So while after Europeans contact Native Americans 00:06:46.189 --> 00:06:48.189 and they bring African -Americans here, well, 00:06:48.230 --> 00:06:50.350 Africans have become African -Americans. There 00:06:50.350 --> 00:06:53.290 are a lot of similarities in that Native Americans 00:06:53.290 --> 00:06:56.430 are kind of the first slaves. They are the first 00:06:56.430 --> 00:06:58.589 transatlantic slave trade. Native Americans are 00:06:58.589 --> 00:07:01.649 brought by Columbus to Spain as laborers, but 00:07:01.649 --> 00:07:04.529 also just kind of interesting curiosities. And 00:07:04.529 --> 00:07:07.250 so they're kind of the first to build this foundation 00:07:07.250 --> 00:07:10.069 that then Black people are slotted into. And 00:07:10.069 --> 00:07:14.209 then it becomes racialized. But even after Africans 00:07:14.209 --> 00:07:16.329 are slaves, Native American slavery continues 00:07:16.329 --> 00:07:18.410 in the West. So in California for a long time, 00:07:18.470 --> 00:07:20.980 Native people are enslaved. So there are certainly 00:07:20.980 --> 00:07:24.680 similarities in their use of their labor exploitation. 00:07:25.379 --> 00:07:28.379 But for the most part, the difference between 00:07:28.379 --> 00:07:30.600 Native Americans and African Americans is that 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:33.819 Native people are fighting to not be part of 00:07:33.819 --> 00:07:35.860 the United States, whereas African Americans 00:07:35.860 --> 00:07:37.600 are fighting to be part of the United States. 00:07:37.720 --> 00:07:40.180 So Native nations are fighting to be recognized 00:07:40.180 --> 00:07:43.319 as sovereign nations, equal to the United States. 00:07:43.439 --> 00:07:45.139 And really, they've been here longer. So they 00:07:45.139 --> 00:07:48.269 have laws, they have... land claims that predate 00:07:48.269 --> 00:07:52.230 any of colonial powers. And so they're, you know, 00:07:52.230 --> 00:07:56.009 first, you know, fighting physically with colonizers, 00:07:56.129 --> 00:07:59.189 then after that kind of is not as successful 00:07:59.189 --> 00:08:01.910 anymore, then they're fighting legally. Once 00:08:01.910 --> 00:08:05.449 the United States begins expanding, then there 00:08:05.449 --> 00:08:07.129 are discussions about, you know, should Native 00:08:07.129 --> 00:08:09.850 Americans have citizenship? With going back to 00:08:09.850 --> 00:08:11.410 your point about the diversity of Native people, 00:08:11.449 --> 00:08:13.209 some Native people do want citizenship. Some 00:08:13.209 --> 00:08:16.120 Native people are like, you know, I accept. that 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.300 my tribe is no longer strong enough to fight 00:08:18.300 --> 00:08:20.579 the might of the United States. Fine, we're going 00:08:20.579 --> 00:08:22.160 to be part of this nation, but then we should 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:25.339 be treated equally. Whereas others say, no, we 00:08:25.339 --> 00:08:27.660 are strong enough. We are economically sound 00:08:27.660 --> 00:08:29.259 enough. We don't want to be part of your nation. 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:33.840 So that's why you have the eventual 1924 Indian 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.320 Citizenship Act. But even then, not all Native 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:40.360 people are interested in that. At the same time, 00:08:40.460 --> 00:08:44.990 maybe the portion of this kind of struggle that 00:08:44.990 --> 00:08:46.929 people would be more familiar with is the 60s 00:08:46.929 --> 00:08:49.409 and 70s. So you have the Black Power Movement. 00:08:49.629 --> 00:08:52.450 Once again, African Americans fighting for inclusion, 00:08:52.889 --> 00:08:56.590 equality, civil rights. Native Americans are 00:08:56.590 --> 00:08:58.450 kind of learning from the Black Power Movement. 00:08:58.529 --> 00:09:00.629 And you have the emergence of the Red Power Movement, 00:09:00.889 --> 00:09:03.750 where they're kind of learning similar strategies. 00:09:03.809 --> 00:09:06.769 They're doing sit -ins. They're doing some amount 00:09:06.769 --> 00:09:09.850 of nonviolence. But they're fighting for treaty 00:09:09.850 --> 00:09:12.460 rights. And so treaty rights means that we know 00:09:12.460 --> 00:09:14.919 the recognition that, again, they are part of 00:09:14.919 --> 00:09:16.700 sovereign nations. And even now that they live 00:09:16.700 --> 00:09:19.059 within the United States, there are certain promises 00:09:19.059 --> 00:09:20.700 that the United States government has made to 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:23.539 them as citizens of a sovereign nation that don't 00:09:23.539 --> 00:09:25.960 apply to African -Americans or other non -white 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.220 peoples. And so the kind of the struggle is always 00:09:29.220 --> 00:09:32.600 to be recognized in their full humanity. But 00:09:32.600 --> 00:09:35.620 there are kind of different rights that these 00:09:35.620 --> 00:09:38.690 people are fighting for because. they came to 00:09:38.690 --> 00:09:40.629 their interactions and contact with Europeans 00:09:40.629 --> 00:09:45.549 in different ways. So interesting. I mean, you 00:09:45.549 --> 00:09:48.590 can't take these facts and this history for granted. 00:09:48.909 --> 00:09:51.690 You know, it's funny because it makes me think 00:09:51.690 --> 00:09:55.029 about how that saying that says reality is oftentimes 00:09:55.029 --> 00:09:57.389 stranger than fiction. You know, like you're 00:09:57.389 --> 00:10:02.330 reading this history and learning this history. 00:10:02.840 --> 00:10:06.220 And it is, you know, I love sci -fi and fantasy 00:10:06.220 --> 00:10:08.779 books, you know, things like that. I love to 00:10:08.779 --> 00:10:10.940 escape, especially at night before bed to help 00:10:10.940 --> 00:10:12.960 me unwind and just kind of escape to another 00:10:12.960 --> 00:10:16.740 place. And when I read and learn about these 00:10:16.740 --> 00:10:20.019 things, sometimes it's like, this really happened. 00:10:20.039 --> 00:10:22.019 Oh, my God, I can't believe this. And just this 00:10:22.019 --> 00:10:26.460 concept, right, of nationhood. I think that was 00:10:26.460 --> 00:10:29.159 one of the most interesting things about your 00:10:29.159 --> 00:10:34.620 book, educating me about. what it was for African 00:10:34.620 --> 00:10:37.659 people who had been enslaved by Native communities 00:10:37.659 --> 00:10:42.379 or Native tribes and that their citizenship or 00:10:42.379 --> 00:10:45.980 lack thereof had to do specifically with these 00:10:45.980 --> 00:10:48.299 five tribes, had to do with whether or not they 00:10:48.299 --> 00:10:52.139 could be a citizen of that tribal nation as opposed 00:10:52.139 --> 00:10:55.799 to being a citizen of America, which would make 00:10:55.799 --> 00:10:58.940 them African -Americans. Can you talk a little 00:10:58.940 --> 00:11:01.159 bit more about that? I mean, this kind of like. 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:04.480 blows my mind in terms of the concept of what 00:11:04.480 --> 00:11:07.360 we even think of as it relates to what is America? 00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:10.860 What are our 50 states? Where do they reside? 00:11:11.700 --> 00:11:14.980 Is America like a Swiss cheese thing? You know, 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:18.000 it's like it, my brain just goes, I'm like that 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.220 emoji, you know? So you don't have to answer 00:11:20.220 --> 00:11:21.899 all those questions, but I think you get the 00:11:21.899 --> 00:11:25.200 feel for what I'm getting at. Hmm. There have 00:11:25.200 --> 00:11:28.879 been lots of conversations about what makes an 00:11:28.879 --> 00:11:32.860 African -American maybe since Obama was running 00:11:32.860 --> 00:11:35.340 for president because it was like, well, is he 00:11:35.340 --> 00:11:37.759 African -American? His dad is African and his 00:11:37.759 --> 00:11:40.340 mother is white American. Does that mean African 00:11:40.340 --> 00:11:43.220 -American? Or if a person immigrates nowadays 00:11:43.220 --> 00:11:45.620 from Africa and they come here, are they an African 00:11:45.620 --> 00:11:49.000 -American? And so the distinction I try to make 00:11:49.000 --> 00:11:51.059 in my book between the people I study in African 00:11:51.059 --> 00:11:54.620 -Americans is that if you are living in a sovereign 00:11:54.620 --> 00:11:57.720 Indian nation, you're not African -American because 00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.519 you're not under the jurisdiction of the United 00:11:59.519 --> 00:12:03.509 States. And I've gotten some pushback from that, 00:12:03.590 --> 00:12:07.110 but I think that's important to me because it 00:12:07.110 --> 00:12:10.049 establishes that the ties these people have are 00:12:10.049 --> 00:12:12.929 to Native American traditions. Like this is the 00:12:12.929 --> 00:12:14.309 language they're hearing around them in their 00:12:14.309 --> 00:12:16.330 houses. This is the food they're cooking for 00:12:16.330 --> 00:12:18.590 their slave owners. They're going on removal 00:12:18.590 --> 00:12:21.309 with their Indian owners because they're living 00:12:21.309 --> 00:12:23.470 in a nation that's being forced to move by the 00:12:23.470 --> 00:12:27.500 United States. And so the... The kind of more 00:12:27.500 --> 00:12:30.059 political angle of my work is that I'm always 00:12:30.059 --> 00:12:33.440 trying to emphasize this connection, because 00:12:33.440 --> 00:12:36.179 then after the Civil War, after these tribes 00:12:36.179 --> 00:12:38.039 have fought for either the United States or the 00:12:38.039 --> 00:12:40.519 Confederacy, the Confederacy is lost. The United 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:43.500 States comes to them and says, you need to get 00:12:43.500 --> 00:12:45.379 rid of slavery because we've gotten rid of slavery 00:12:45.379 --> 00:12:48.980 and you need to free your slaves. Yes. Like after 00:12:48.980 --> 00:12:52.480 they force Native people almost to start slavery, 00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:54.159 then they're like, actually, now you need to 00:12:54.159 --> 00:12:56.639 get rid of that now that we said so. But we're 00:12:56.639 --> 00:13:00.980 not going to do it. That part. You do it. We're 00:13:00.980 --> 00:13:02.519 not going to give equal rights to everyone, but 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:06.820 you do that now. This is when you have lots of 00:13:06.820 --> 00:13:09.419 discussions in these Indian nations about are 00:13:09.419 --> 00:13:13.039 we a nation that's just about ancestry, about 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:16.279 quote -unquote blood, or can we allow people 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.039 into our nations because of a treaty, a political 00:13:19.039 --> 00:13:22.919 agreement? And Native nations really have always 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:26.320 allowed people who are not this certain tribe 00:13:26.320 --> 00:13:30.080 by blood, quote unquote, because of war. Like 00:13:30.080 --> 00:13:32.899 so many tribes would adopt people or they would 00:13:32.899 --> 00:13:34.519 go to war, take people captive. Those people 00:13:34.519 --> 00:13:36.179 would become part of their nation. So really 00:13:36.179 --> 00:13:39.820 it's actually more traditionally native to adopt 00:13:39.820 --> 00:13:42.559 people and to have them part of your tribe. So 00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:44.159 that's one kind of part of the argument. But 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:46.700 the other part of the argument is that if a group 00:13:46.700 --> 00:13:49.080 of people have been in your nation doing labor 00:13:49.080 --> 00:13:51.799 that has created your society, then, you know, 00:13:52.120 --> 00:13:54.559 Don't they deserve at least equal rights and 00:13:54.559 --> 00:13:57.200 citizenship in that nation after emancipation? 00:13:57.480 --> 00:14:00.940 And so this continues to be a relevant conversation 00:14:00.940 --> 00:14:04.440 because today it's only the Cherokee Nation who 00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:07.360 has given equal rights to the descendants of 00:14:07.360 --> 00:14:09.179 the Black people enslaved in their nations. Every 00:14:09.179 --> 00:14:11.899 other nation has made some sort of argument that 00:14:11.899 --> 00:14:14.139 these people really aren't Indian, so they don't 00:14:14.139 --> 00:14:17.460 deserve citizenship. And it gets around this 00:14:17.460 --> 00:14:20.659 kind of ethical question of, you know. Maybe 00:14:20.659 --> 00:14:24.659 you can do this because of your treaty or because 00:14:24.659 --> 00:14:26.539 you're a sovereign nation, but that doesn't mean 00:14:26.539 --> 00:14:29.740 it's right. If you're enjoying the show as much 00:14:29.740 --> 00:14:32.720 as we love creating it, consider showing your 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:37.740 support by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit buymeacoffee 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:44.200 .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:14:44.200 --> 00:14:51.110 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. all one word. 00:14:51.210 --> 00:14:55.889 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:14:55.889 --> 00:14:59.029 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:14:59.029 --> 00:15:02.210 the high quality content you've come to expect 00:15:02.210 --> 00:15:05.549 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you for 00:15:05.549 --> 00:15:08.149 your continued support and let's keep the conversation 00:15:08.149 --> 00:15:13.029 going. My brain, my brain. This is why I'm such 00:15:13.029 --> 00:15:17.350 a fangirl of you because I love it. When I get 00:15:17.350 --> 00:15:20.649 to interact with people, you, and others like 00:15:20.649 --> 00:15:25.409 you who share such profound insight and knowledge 00:15:25.409 --> 00:15:29.769 about humans, you know, I have a psychology major, 00:15:29.870 --> 00:15:31.889 so I love that stuff. So psychology, sociology, 00:15:32.269 --> 00:15:34.149 history, all that good stuff, public health, 00:15:34.269 --> 00:15:37.529 like, let's do it. And you're bringing up so 00:15:37.529 --> 00:15:39.909 many points because a part of what you talked 00:15:39.909 --> 00:15:44.539 about, pre -colonialism. Native Americans. And 00:15:44.539 --> 00:15:47.220 let's be clear for our audience. Who are the 00:15:47.220 --> 00:15:49.200 specific five tribes that we're talking about? 00:15:49.419 --> 00:15:52.000 I'm going to back up a little bit. Who are the 00:15:52.000 --> 00:15:53.879 specific five tribes that we're talking about? 00:15:54.019 --> 00:15:57.620 And why are they considered the five tribes? 00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:01.700 So the nations that my ancestors were enslaved 00:16:01.700 --> 00:16:05.019 in were the Chickasaw and Choctaw nations. Then 00:16:05.019 --> 00:16:07.320 there were the Cherokees, the largest Indian 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:09.799 nation today. Then there were the Creeks, also 00:16:09.799 --> 00:16:13.320 called Muscogees, and the Seminoles. So I call 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.100 them the five tribes because it's kind of a sanitized 00:16:16.100 --> 00:16:19.279 version of what they were called in the mid 1700s, 00:16:19.279 --> 00:16:21.960 which was the five civilized tribes. And they 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:24.039 were considered civilized, different from other 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:25.740 Indian nations by the United States government. 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:28.360 partly because they adopted slavery, but also 00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:30.279 because they made other changes to their nation. 00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.820 So they started kind of dressing more like Europeans. 00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:36.700 They changed the way they did agriculture. So 00:16:36.700 --> 00:16:38.620 they were already farming, but they switched 00:16:38.620 --> 00:16:42.809 it up to adhere to European gender norms. Native 00:16:42.809 --> 00:16:44.830 women traditionally actually did the farming, 00:16:44.950 --> 00:16:47.389 but Europeans didn't like that. They said, you 00:16:47.389 --> 00:16:48.830 know, a man should be the one out there doing 00:16:48.830 --> 00:16:51.690 that. And so now they change it so that men did 00:16:51.690 --> 00:16:54.850 the farming. They started raising things like 00:16:54.850 --> 00:16:58.279 cows. They adopted horses. They sent their children 00:16:58.279 --> 00:17:01.179 to European and American schools to be educated. 00:17:01.340 --> 00:17:03.259 They started speaking English. They created a 00:17:03.259 --> 00:17:06.059 constitution and a government modeled on that 00:17:06.059 --> 00:17:08.019 of the United States. So each of these five nations 00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:11.160 from at least the early 1800s had their own judicial 00:17:11.160 --> 00:17:13.819 branch, legislative branch, executive branch. 00:17:14.099 --> 00:17:16.140 So there were many things that they did to... 00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:18.430 partly to survive because, you know, they're 00:17:18.430 --> 00:17:20.049 dynamic people. They're not just stuck in the 00:17:20.049 --> 00:17:22.009 past. Like maybe some people think about Native 00:17:22.009 --> 00:17:25.190 Americans, but also as a way to be treated better. 00:17:25.250 --> 00:17:28.349 Like they realize this will help us to an extent 00:17:28.349 --> 00:17:34.349 be more accepted. These compromises, right? And 00:17:34.349 --> 00:17:37.329 like you said, being a dynamic people, right? 00:17:37.410 --> 00:17:42.750 So every community is going to evolve. you know, 00:17:42.789 --> 00:17:45.690 with history, with time, with technology, with 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:50.130 new influences and what have you. But also there 00:17:50.130 --> 00:17:53.029 is a life and death quotient here, right? There 00:17:53.029 --> 00:17:57.150 is a political and violent physical pressure 00:17:57.150 --> 00:18:00.869 to make some really difficult decisions that 00:18:00.869 --> 00:18:03.150 they might not otherwise have made, right? So 00:18:03.150 --> 00:18:06.630 when I think back to, you know, what you said 00:18:06.630 --> 00:18:12.000 earlier about before, and I'm kind of... putting 00:18:12.000 --> 00:18:14.380 my own imagination into this. So correct me if 00:18:14.380 --> 00:18:17.940 I'm wrong. So before the colonial presence, European 00:18:17.940 --> 00:18:22.180 presence, if native groups, native nations, native 00:18:22.180 --> 00:18:25.859 tribes had conflict with other native tribes 00:18:25.859 --> 00:18:29.400 and one overpowered the other, right? So there's 00:18:29.400 --> 00:18:31.940 going to be a winner and a loser. They would 00:18:31.940 --> 00:18:36.859 take people in, you know, as slaves, as, you 00:18:36.859 --> 00:18:40.390 know, prisoners of war, what have you. and acculturate 00:18:40.390 --> 00:18:43.329 them into their nation and then they would become 00:18:43.329 --> 00:18:47.230 you know a part of that nation who won right 00:18:47.230 --> 00:18:52.029 and so this idea of citizenship for black people 00:18:52.029 --> 00:18:55.829 the fact that there's a struggle with that to 00:18:55.829 --> 00:18:59.309 me indicates that the struggle is there not because 00:18:59.309 --> 00:19:02.089 they didn't know anything about slavery before 00:19:02.089 --> 00:19:06.089 but because there is this sentiment of anti -blackness 00:19:06.089 --> 00:19:12.180 and as you mentioned Race was a construct that 00:19:12.180 --> 00:19:16.740 was developed over time specifically for the 00:19:16.740 --> 00:19:19.680 benefit of the establishment of the United States 00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:24.440 of America. And so when we think about, you know, 00:19:24.480 --> 00:19:26.940 this whole nationhood question, this whole citizen 00:19:26.940 --> 00:19:30.799 question, what is an African American? What is 00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:35.759 an African Native person or Indian person? You 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:40.569 know, it's like. There's a deeper question as 00:19:40.569 --> 00:19:44.049 to why Cherokee of those five tribes are the 00:19:44.049 --> 00:19:47.269 ones who resolved it to say, okay, yes, we have 00:19:47.269 --> 00:19:49.630 Black people in our community that have been 00:19:49.630 --> 00:19:52.349 here for generations who were formerly enslaved 00:19:52.349 --> 00:19:56.630 and now deserve to have the rights of all the 00:19:56.630 --> 00:19:59.970 other Cherokees in this nation. And so that's 00:19:59.970 --> 00:20:03.049 interesting that they were able to come to that 00:20:03.049 --> 00:20:05.309 understanding and agreement, and I'm sure it 00:20:05.309 --> 00:20:07.930 was probably hard fought. but that the other 00:20:07.930 --> 00:20:13.470 four of the five tribes did not. So it's just 00:20:13.470 --> 00:20:15.430 a point of conversation. I don't know if you 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:18.089 want to make any clarifications about that. Well, 00:20:18.170 --> 00:20:21.470 so going back to pre -contact, like just like 00:20:21.470 --> 00:20:23.789 we see with. you know the romans who have been 00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:25.990 depicted in a million things like you know these 00:20:25.990 --> 00:20:30.390 different tribes in the germanic region um or 00:20:30.390 --> 00:20:32.529 what is now italy yeah they they would go to 00:20:32.529 --> 00:20:35.470 war over resources or land or just because they 00:20:35.470 --> 00:20:37.769 wanted to and yeah they would take people captive 00:20:37.769 --> 00:20:39.450 and that's the same thing that happened in north 00:20:39.450 --> 00:20:41.670 america there are basically three things that 00:20:41.670 --> 00:20:43.190 could happen to you if you got taken captive 00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:47.839 one you were killed ritualistically because warriors 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:50.839 believe that if they killed someone in this way 00:20:50.839 --> 00:20:54.359 they could absorb their power. So the Chickasaws 00:20:54.359 --> 00:20:58.420 were kind of especially horrible in that they 00:20:58.420 --> 00:21:00.460 would like, I don't know how graphic I want to 00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:02.359 be, like they would tie a person to like a stake, 00:21:02.619 --> 00:21:06.680 burn them alive. Oh wow. It's crazy. So that's 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:08.400 number one. That's the one you don't want. But 00:21:08.400 --> 00:21:09.880 that's what happened to most men because they 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.299 were seen as threatening. Or you could be taken 00:21:12.299 --> 00:21:14.740 in as a captive and you could be captive forever. 00:21:14.900 --> 00:21:16.940 Like always kind of this lower rung of society. 00:21:17.759 --> 00:21:19.319 You would have to have like a different hairstyle. 00:21:19.559 --> 00:21:21.279 You would have things that differentiated yourself 00:21:21.279 --> 00:21:23.859 from people in that society. Or number three, 00:21:23.880 --> 00:21:26.980 you could be totally adopted, usually to kind 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:29.380 of replace a dead loved one. So like a mother 00:21:29.380 --> 00:21:31.599 might be like, you know, my son just died. I'd 00:21:31.599 --> 00:21:33.240 really like to take this, you know, young boy 00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:35.579 who's a captive and make him my son symbolically. 00:21:35.779 --> 00:21:38.099 And then you would be totally accepted. Or women 00:21:38.099 --> 00:21:40.339 would marry into the tribe and then be accepted. 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:43.940 And yes, so that is a foundation in which it 00:21:43.940 --> 00:21:45.680 would seem like, oh, like, of course, when they 00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.640 have black slaves, like it would make sense to 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:48.839 them that they're kind of just part of their 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:53.859 nation. And that was how it was at first. But 00:21:53.859 --> 00:21:57.160 it changes over time. And one of these five tribes 00:21:57.160 --> 00:21:59.480 has a slightly different history, the Seminoles. 00:22:00.500 --> 00:22:02.799 Some people know the Seminoles because they had 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.839 various wars with the United States. And so the 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:09.069 Seminoles in Florida fought for. almost 50 years 00:22:09.069 --> 00:22:11.549 to stop the United States from being able to 00:22:11.549 --> 00:22:14.849 move into their space in Florida. And part of 00:22:14.849 --> 00:22:16.569 the people who fought for them were Black people 00:22:16.569 --> 00:22:20.869 who had run away from various places in Georgia, 00:22:21.049 --> 00:22:24.269 South Carolina, and been kind of accepted not 00:22:24.269 --> 00:22:27.069 as part of their tribe, but kind of their own 00:22:27.069 --> 00:22:29.029 tribe. So they were called the Black Seminoles, 00:22:29.109 --> 00:22:31.190 not because they necessarily intermarried with 00:22:31.190 --> 00:22:32.710 Seminoles, but because they were kind of protected 00:22:32.710 --> 00:22:35.930 by them and accepted by them. But after the Seminoles, 00:22:36.009 --> 00:22:38.549 some of them are forced to move to Oklahoma. 00:22:40.029 --> 00:22:41.950 That's when the Seminoles kind of change up and 00:22:41.950 --> 00:22:43.950 then they become more like the other four tribes, 00:22:44.089 --> 00:22:46.609 holding Black people as slaves. So those people 00:22:46.609 --> 00:22:48.990 who went with them didn't come as slaves. But 00:22:48.990 --> 00:22:51.730 afterward, they were like, oh, we see what everyone 00:22:51.730 --> 00:22:54.230 else is doing here. You know, we kind of like 00:22:54.230 --> 00:22:58.910 this. So you see how it can infiltrate like this 00:22:58.910 --> 00:23:02.869 idea of race and racism. It's horrible. It's 00:23:02.869 --> 00:23:07.349 horrifying, honestly. It's like a virus. That's 00:23:07.349 --> 00:23:10.109 a good way of thinking about it, yes. So that's 00:23:10.109 --> 00:23:13.450 very clear in the way you then hear about the 00:23:13.450 --> 00:23:16.569 five tribes talking about accepting Black people. 00:23:16.769 --> 00:23:19.490 Because, yeah, they will go around in circles 00:23:19.490 --> 00:23:22.250 to make it seem as though they've never really 00:23:22.250 --> 00:23:23.970 done this. They've never really taken people 00:23:23.970 --> 00:23:26.009 who aren't of their own tribe. And it's like, 00:23:26.069 --> 00:23:27.769 well, that's not true. We all know that that's 00:23:27.769 --> 00:23:30.130 not true. But because they're Black. they're 00:23:30.130 --> 00:23:32.329 willing to say that. Whereas white people and 00:23:32.329 --> 00:23:36.349 white Indians are accepted in a way that Black 00:23:36.349 --> 00:23:40.869 Natives are not. Yeah. That was also a very interesting 00:23:40.869 --> 00:23:43.529 part of your book about, especially when it came 00:23:43.529 --> 00:23:48.369 to Native citizenship, and I believe it was the 00:23:48.369 --> 00:23:53.549 Dawes Act, if I'm correct, where the way that 00:23:54.220 --> 00:23:56.859 And even, what is that new movie that just came 00:23:56.859 --> 00:23:59.700 out that got all this critical? Killers of the 00:23:59.700 --> 00:24:06.440 Flower Moon. That movie. That movie. And watching 00:24:06.440 --> 00:24:13.539 that movie, and I had a lot of emotional reaction 00:24:13.539 --> 00:24:16.019 to that movie. One, because it's an emotional 00:24:16.019 --> 00:24:18.819 movie, right? But two, because of the political 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:22.819 nuance of the movie and what it said about a 00:24:22.819 --> 00:24:26.180 brat. you know, the broader virus of racism, 00:24:26.380 --> 00:24:30.019 right? And how this played out in terms of taking 00:24:30.019 --> 00:24:36.160 people's lands, taking people's wealth, and they're 00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:39.279 actually like killing, like openly plotting and 00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:41.700 killing people to do it, you know, marrying people 00:24:41.700 --> 00:24:45.779 with the intention of killing them after the 00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:48.920 baby, you know, so that they could keep the land 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:53.319 claim or keep the native. And having that be 00:24:53.319 --> 00:24:58.519 a pattern among white people in different tribes, 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:01.900 I imagine. And then when you look at the connection 00:25:01.900 --> 00:25:05.839 of the people of African descent who were enslaved 00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:08.759 within the Native communities and the Native 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:13.059 communities' governments, their judicial system, 00:25:13.319 --> 00:25:17.019 their elected officials, their response to Black 00:25:17.019 --> 00:25:23.380 people was totally different. And I'm like, again, 00:25:23.539 --> 00:25:27.000 I'm open to learning new things. Always open 00:25:27.000 --> 00:25:28.960 to learning new things. My show is called Questions 00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:30.960 You Didn't Ask. I'm here to learn. But from my 00:25:30.960 --> 00:25:34.400 recollection, Black people never inflicted that 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.799 type of violence on Native peoples. So what's 00:25:37.799 --> 00:25:41.559 the problem? I mean, the question I was asked 00:25:41.559 --> 00:25:44.019 by multiple friends after they watched that movie 00:25:44.019 --> 00:25:46.779 was, why did these women marry these white men 00:25:46.779 --> 00:25:49.779 when they know that this is happening around 00:25:49.779 --> 00:25:52.099 them? Yes, people weren't necessarily getting 00:25:52.099 --> 00:25:54.779 murdered at the beginning, but there were stories 00:25:54.779 --> 00:25:57.759 like galore in almost every Indian nation that 00:25:57.759 --> 00:26:00.980 had land and especially nations that had, you 00:26:00.980 --> 00:26:03.380 know, mineral or natural resources under that 00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:05.920 land that a white man would marry you and then 00:26:05.920 --> 00:26:09.319 try to take your claim. I know Martin Scorsese 00:26:09.319 --> 00:26:11.059 has said that he didn't feel like that was kind 00:26:11.059 --> 00:26:14.539 of his story to tell, kind of going into Mali's 00:26:14.539 --> 00:26:19.049 motivations or Native women's motivations. Like, 00:26:19.109 --> 00:26:21.329 that is the question for Native communities, 00:26:21.470 --> 00:26:23.650 honestly. Like, why would you still marry these 00:26:23.650 --> 00:26:26.150 men? And why did you marry them historically? 00:26:26.430 --> 00:26:28.089 Like, even before that, there were white men 00:26:28.089 --> 00:26:30.089 marrying to these tribes. And why did you continue 00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:33.009 after that marrying to these tribes? Like, yes. 00:26:33.569 --> 00:26:36.029 Like, Disney Pocahontas, it has a line, like, 00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:39.329 these white men are dangerous. I can't watch 00:26:39.329 --> 00:26:41.970 Pocahontas, by the way, but that's a whole other 00:26:41.970 --> 00:26:44.390 thing. But it's not really. It's actually the 00:26:44.390 --> 00:26:46.859 same thing. i show it to my students as a learning 00:26:46.859 --> 00:26:51.039 tool yes we analyze it bless you that's the one 00:26:51.039 --> 00:26:53.099 disney movie i won't even let my daughter watch 00:26:53.099 --> 00:26:55.960 but anyway go ahead maybe i will at some other 00:26:55.960 --> 00:27:00.859 time and we can unpack it but but no i mean the 00:27:00.859 --> 00:27:04.359 fear about black people that you see kind of 00:27:04.359 --> 00:27:06.839 in the same period the early 1900s is what's 00:27:06.839 --> 00:27:10.200 going on in the movie is more that Oh, like, 00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:12.180 what if Black people marry into the tribe and 00:27:12.180 --> 00:27:14.059 then overrun us because there are more African 00:27:14.059 --> 00:27:17.019 -Americans than there are Native people? Or what 00:27:17.019 --> 00:27:18.700 if there are Black people who marry into the 00:27:18.700 --> 00:27:20.380 tribe and then the government no longer sees 00:27:20.380 --> 00:27:24.319 us as Native? They see us as Black. And this 00:27:24.319 --> 00:27:27.079 is honestly, as a historian, it's a valid fear 00:27:27.079 --> 00:27:32.259 because the way Black identity and Native identity 00:27:32.259 --> 00:27:36.039 work are like the opposite sides of a coin, meaning. 00:27:36.730 --> 00:27:39.150 The more African -Americans there are in white 00:27:39.150 --> 00:27:42.329 society during slavery, the better, because then 00:27:42.329 --> 00:27:43.869 you have more people who are considered slaves. 00:27:43.910 --> 00:27:45.230 And that's great. You don't have to recognize 00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:47.970 them as human beings at all. Whereas afterward, 00:27:48.329 --> 00:27:52.069 the idea with what I know most of your listeners 00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:55.230 know is the one drop rule. The idea is that even 00:27:55.230 --> 00:27:57.349 if we have created created all these African 00:27:57.349 --> 00:27:59.150 -Americans who have white ancestry because of 00:27:59.150 --> 00:28:01.730 sexual abuse and assault, we can still consider 00:28:01.730 --> 00:28:03.609 them black and we can still discriminate against 00:28:03.609 --> 00:28:05.250 them if they even have one African ancestor. 00:28:06.120 --> 00:28:09.119 Native people, it's the opposite. Because the 00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:11.700 less Native people you have, the fewer land claims 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:14.319 you have. So the more land the government can 00:28:14.319 --> 00:28:17.980 take. And so if you create the idea that if you 00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:19.900 have white ancestor, if you have Black ancestor, 00:28:20.039 --> 00:28:22.259 you're not really Native anymore, then you can 00:28:22.259 --> 00:28:25.660 scare Native people. And so it's all like just 00:28:25.660 --> 00:28:28.220 kind of this identity creation like of the United 00:28:28.220 --> 00:28:32.789 States meant to fearmonger and divide. It also 00:28:32.789 --> 00:28:35.750 made me have an aha moment as well, reflecting 00:28:35.750 --> 00:28:38.829 on the first powwow that I went to, which if 00:28:38.829 --> 00:28:40.990 I'm remembering correctly, was in North Carolina, 00:28:41.109 --> 00:28:47.369 which is my home state. And I looked around and 00:28:47.369 --> 00:28:50.089 for me, it was difficult to find what looked 00:28:50.089 --> 00:28:52.430 like Native American people or what I thought 00:28:52.430 --> 00:28:55.490 Native American people looked like. To me, it 00:28:55.490 --> 00:28:58.630 looked like white people playing dress up and 00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:01.890 I was concerned. But then I learned. No, those 00:29:01.890 --> 00:29:05.650 are those are Native American people. And I said, 00:29:05.710 --> 00:29:10.029 oh, OK. You know, so I had to make an adjustment 00:29:10.029 --> 00:29:14.150 in my mind, a mental adjustment in that just 00:29:14.150 --> 00:29:19.329 again, the whiteness was less threatening for 00:29:19.329 --> 00:29:24.829 them as a nation in some respects. And in other 00:29:24.829 --> 00:29:28.549 respects, it was extremely threatening. But the 00:29:28.549 --> 00:29:32.650 the gamble. that they were willing to take was 00:29:32.650 --> 00:29:38.569 that we can benefit more from one white drop 00:29:38.569 --> 00:29:42.829 as opposed to one black drop. And I cannot necessarily, 00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:46.849 I mean, I can think on it some more, but blame 00:29:46.849 --> 00:29:49.930 is not what comes to my mind, right? Blame is 00:29:49.930 --> 00:29:53.150 not what comes to my mind. The insidious nature 00:29:53.150 --> 00:30:00.339 of the oppressor and this mental. virus of racism 00:30:00.339 --> 00:30:04.359 and institutionalized racism is really where 00:30:04.359 --> 00:30:09.440 my brain goes when it comes to blame. So have 00:30:09.440 --> 00:30:15.680 you seen any strategies that can help build genuine, 00:30:15.779 --> 00:30:20.019 accountable solidarity between these communities? 00:30:20.160 --> 00:30:22.559 Have you seen any of these examples or have you 00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:27.710 even imagined in your creative moments of thinking 00:30:27.710 --> 00:30:33.190 of the world without any barriers. What I have 00:30:33.190 --> 00:30:39.970 seen so far is primarily visibility, like Native 00:30:39.970 --> 00:30:44.990 organizations or Native folks who will use their 00:30:44.990 --> 00:30:47.250 own kind of identity as people who are accepted 00:30:47.250 --> 00:30:52.390 as Native, either, you know, their they're non 00:30:52.390 --> 00:30:54.210 -white and they kind of look like the stereotype 00:30:54.210 --> 00:30:56.809 of a Native person or they are part white but 00:30:56.809 --> 00:30:59.549 they're enrolled and they'll kind of say, you 00:30:59.549 --> 00:31:01.529 know, like, look, I accept my Black brothers 00:31:01.529 --> 00:31:04.009 and sisters and, you know, here is a Black and 00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:06.589 Native, like, artist or a Black and Native scholar 00:31:06.589 --> 00:31:10.930 or I'm putting on an event at my local, you know, 00:31:10.930 --> 00:31:13.390 library or whatever where I'm talking about Black 00:31:13.390 --> 00:31:15.769 and Native history in my community. Like, things 00:31:15.769 --> 00:31:18.779 like that where people... are educating people 00:31:18.779 --> 00:31:21.619 who don't already know that Black history is 00:31:21.619 --> 00:31:24.740 in some way part of their nation's story. And 00:31:24.740 --> 00:31:28.680 then also just kind of normalizing it, like that 00:31:28.680 --> 00:31:31.759 it shouldn't be weird to see a Black slash Black 00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:34.119 Native person at a powwow or at a local event 00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:36.720 because, you know, chances are at least one person 00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.640 in your tribe has married a Black person or reproduced 00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:40.619 with a Black person. There are more and more 00:31:40.619 --> 00:31:43.940 people who look like me in Native communities. 00:31:43.960 --> 00:31:46.059 It's just that for a long time they weren't accepted. 00:31:46.059 --> 00:31:49.470 And so maybe they didn't. identify or kind of 00:31:49.470 --> 00:31:51.349 look toward that part of their identity to be 00:31:51.349 --> 00:31:53.730 accepted and so I think the more that happens 00:31:53.730 --> 00:31:58.890 the more it is considered okay in those communities 00:31:58.890 --> 00:32:00.950 like to even have a relationship or a friendship 00:32:00.950 --> 00:32:03.869 with a Black person but then also to acknowledge 00:32:03.869 --> 00:32:06.549 historical relationships and interactions with 00:32:06.549 --> 00:32:09.910 people of African descent and then the second 00:32:09.910 --> 00:32:12.910 part of that which is the harder part is getting 00:32:12.910 --> 00:32:16.170 tribal governments to kind of acknowledge and 00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:20.069 reckon with that history. Because even if individuals 00:32:20.069 --> 00:32:24.309 in tribal governments accept, you know, maybe 00:32:24.309 --> 00:32:27.130 we've been racist in the past, like maybe there 00:32:27.130 --> 00:32:30.029 are things we could improve on. As government 00:32:30.029 --> 00:32:32.210 heads, they are very unlikely to ever say it 00:32:32.210 --> 00:32:35.430 publicly, I have found, because they're afraid 00:32:35.430 --> 00:32:38.150 of, you know, sharing those casino revenues or... 00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:42.420 having the influx of Black citizens who becomes 00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:44.500 a larger number than their smaller number of 00:32:44.500 --> 00:32:46.480 tribal citizens. Like there are lots of ways 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:49.420 that fears from the 1900s also are reproducing 00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:53.640 today. And I've realized it's really, it's similar 00:32:53.640 --> 00:32:56.980 to the United States, like in that it's being 00:32:56.980 --> 00:33:00.799 tribal nations are just kind of very big bureaucracies. 00:33:00.799 --> 00:33:03.569 And it takes... a large number of people within 00:33:03.569 --> 00:33:06.549 those bureaucracies to push them to change. That's 00:33:06.549 --> 00:33:09.210 a wrap on this episode of Questions You Didn't 00:33:09.210 --> 00:33:12.150 Ask. I'm Naisha Frey, and it's been a privilege 00:33:12.150 --> 00:33:14.809 to speak with award -winning author, Dr. Elena 00:33:14.809 --> 00:33:18.210 Roberts. Join us next week as we continue our 00:33:18.210 --> 00:33:21.589 series, Sankofa and Solidarity, uncovering Black 00:33:21.589 --> 00:33:25.269 and Native legacies for health equity. See you 00:33:25.269 --> 00:33:25.450 then.