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Thank you. Thank you for joining us on Questions
You Didn't Ask for our fourth season. Whether
you're a longtime listener or joining us for
the first time, welcome. Today, we embark on
a journey to connect history with our fight for
health equity. A journey that is as much about
uncovering untold stories as it is about inspiring
real world action. This series, Sankofa in Solidarity,
uncovering Black and Native legacies for health
equity. sets the stage for a powerful discussion
that looks back at our past to build a better
future. I'm honored to introduce our guest, Dr.
Elena E. Roberts, Associate Professor of History
at the University of Pittsburgh and award -winning
author of I've Been Here All the While, Black
Freedom on Native Land. Dr. Roberts' groundbreaking
work reveals the hidden narratives of Black and
Native American communities. Stories that have
been largely overlooked in mainstream history.
Before we dive into our conversation, let's take
a moment to understand some key facts about health
disparities affecting these communities. Facts
that underscore why this discussion is so critical.
Maternal health. African -American women experience
a maternal mortality rate nearly three times
higher than that of white women, according to
CDC in 2020. Diabetes prevalence. Native American
communities face diabetes rates that are two
to three times higher than the national average,
a disparity that contributes to reduced quality
of life and early mortality, according to the
Indian Health Service in 2020. Infant mortality.
While African American infants suffer from higher
mortality rates compared to the national average,
Native American communities also struggle with
significantly elevated infant mortality rates.
Studies show rates for Native American infants
can be nearly double those of white infants.
This is according to the National Center for
Health Statistics as of 2019. Both African American
and Native American communities share the burden
of systemic inequities. For example, While African
Americans face critical challenges in maternal
and cardiovascular health, Native Americans are
disproportionately impacted by chronic conditions
such as diabetes, substance abuse, and mental
health issues. These statistics are not just
numbers. They represent real lives and communities
in urgent need of better systems of care and
opportunity. As the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
explains, Health equity means that everyone has
a fair and just opportunity to be as healthy
as possible. This requires removing obstacles
such as poverty, discrimination, and systemic
barriers. Today's conversation is about learning
from the past, a Sankofa approach, to build pathways
toward genuine solidarity and collective action.
In this series, we will explore bridging history
and health equity. How can the hidden histories
of Black and Native American communities inform
our strategies to dismantle systemic barriers?
The narrative of, I got Indian in my family.
What does this expression mean within Black culture?
And why does it carry both pride and a call for
unity? Conversely, why is there less acknowledgement
of African ancestry among Native communities?
Solidarity and collective action. What? concrete
steps can be taken to forge true alliances between
Black, Native, and Latino communities to address
health disparities head -on. Dr. Roberts' work
has been profiled by CNN, The New York Times,
The Atlantic, and Al Jazeera, among others. Her
research not only challenges mainstream historical
narratives, but also provides crucial insights
into how social determinants such as access to
quality education, housing, and healthcare, shaped
the lives of marginalized groups. I began my
own journey into these topics as I organized
collaborative efforts to advance health equity
in Northeast North Carolina, a region where Black
and Native communities, despite being the majority,
continue to suffer from severe health disparities
due to historic and systemic oppression and neglect.
Today, our conversation isn't just academic.
It's a call to action. We're here to challenge
our assumptions, break down barriers, and envision
a future where our shared histories empower us
to create systems that uplift everyone. As I
always say, as leaders, it is our responsibility
to dismantle systemic inequities and rebuild
systems that uplift everyone. So join us as we
break the silence, confront our own biases, and
explore the powerful lessons from our past. Let's
learn together and forge a future where health
equity and social justice are not just ideals,
but realities for Black, Native, and all marginalized
communities. Thank you for being here. Together,
we can transform our history into a catalyst
for change. Thank you so much, Dr. Roberts, for
joining us today. Let's jump right into this
discussion. My first question for you is my work
in public health focuses on community -driven
solutions to health equity problems. According
to the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation, health
equity requires removing obstacles such as poverty,
discrimination, and systemic barriers. How does
your work as a historian intersect with it? Well,
I'm not sure that most people are aware of the
fact that both African -Americans and Native
Americans are facing similar issues around poverty,
around living in food deserts, discrimination.
When people were talking about police violence
against African -Americans, a lot of people were
missing the fact that Native Americans also have
a huge amount of police violence perpetuated
in their communities. Life's work is really about
bringing these historical narratives together
to show people that the origins are very similar,
that the origins of discrimination against Black
people as well as Native people are both based
in colonization, essentially. Yeah. So as it
relates to that, that kind of uncharted territory,
those connections that usually don't get made
in mainstream consciousness or even communications,
media, so on. What inspired you to join Questions
You Didn't Ask and engage in this discussion
today? Well, I think the work that you do is
really wonderful, kind of bringing attention
to the disparities in health outcomes and working
towards solutions. The health of a community
is about public health, but I think it's also
about social health, mental health. the things
i'm doing do relate to that i think if we're
thinking holistically you know in terms of a
person um and their kind of more you know spiritual
and mental health along with their physical health
Yeah, I'm really glad to hear that. You know,
we think oftentimes of academic and research
disciplines as being very, very siloed and very
unique in so many ways. And really, when you
get down into it, especially if you're concerned
about the people of a particular topic, you start
to see more connections. And I think it sparks
so many more questions, right? Questions that
we didn't ask or questions that we were scared
to ask or questions we thought were already asked.
really haven't. So we're going to join in that
journey today together for our audience. So I
want you to start by sharing your journey and
what led you to become an award -winning historian.
A lot of personal angst. I had a lot of kind
of identity crises when I was younger. I didn't
feel like I fit in a box and humans are kind
of program to you know put people into boxes
uh based on what they look like or their interests
and so in college as i was kind of trying to
figure out you know what clubs do i fit in and
you know do i want to join the newspaper do i
want to join the black student union or a dance
troupe or whatever i started talking to my dad
about his family because to me I felt maybe if
I can figure out, you know, how they felt about
their own identity or where they fit, maybe that
would give me some sort of insight about myself.
And then I like discovered like that there was
kind of this whole history about Native Americans
who owned black slaves that I never knew that
most people I talked to never knew. Even my father
really didn't know the breadth of this history.
And so I was excited to find out that my ancestors
had been kind of. in a similar in -between space,
not really fitting in any particular box, and
that I could be the person, because there hadn't
been that much work done on this topic, I could
be the person to bring this history to other
people and to educate them as I educated myself.
Yeah, I think that that, you know, that also
resonates with me in terms of how I came to be
in the space that I'm in and how these formative
years and this identity and coming into contact
with our history through our parents through
our elders um really guide and direct uh what
gives us that fire that that flame uh and helps
us to see where can i flourish not just personally
but also professionally um and so i'm really
i can read resonate with what you're saying about,
you know, kind of digging in and trying to figure
out who am I and how does this relate to who
I'm going to be? So let's start to unpack some
of these Black Native histories because you said
the thing, right? The thing that like drew me
in and was like, oh my gosh, how is it that as
a Black woman who was raised in a Black family
and deeply involved in the Black community and
civil rights and being very interested in other
cultures, other religions, other histories, as
well as my own, how is it that I never knew that
Native American peoples enslaved African peoples
in this country? So let's talk about that a little
bit. Who shaped and influenced your research
on African -American and Native American history?
There is, gosh, such a depth of the African -American
experience that is still unexplored in scholarly
spaces, but for the average person who's not
an academic or doesn't even necessarily go to
college, there are only certain kind of aspects
of the Black experience that kind of filter down.
you know we have the idea of maybe a cotton plantation
in mississippi or something um and then we extrapolate
that to think oh like well that's how it was
for every black slave um because we don't necessarily
get other information so i think for for me And
understanding that there are so many different
pockets of that experience and that my family's
experience was, it's really just one of those,
is important. So, you know, whenever I'm able
to give talks about this, I always emphasize,
like, there's still more. This is one experience
that is, I think, interesting and unique. But
there are so many other ways that the African
American experience in the North is different.
The African American experience, you know, in
California or other parts of the West is different.
And so this history in specific is interesting,
I think, because it brings together two kind
of unknown histories, like Native American history
is also understudied in academia. And then also
we don't get much of that at the kind of K through
12 level. And so bringing those together, you
get kind of an extra amount of a lack of knowledge.
Right. So. One of the talks that I heard you
give was with one of your colleagues. And what
surprised me about that was there seemed to be
some other experts that had dabbled in this topic,
right? And had not just dabbled, but like it
spent significant time doing the research or
being familiar with the history. And so that
surprised me as well, where it's like, oh. She
has like a whole flock of unicorns that she's,
you know, learning from and learning with that,
you know, mainstream communities don't really
know about. Are there any noteworthy historians
or researchers that you have found have really
helped kind of guide your light and help pave
that way? Or has this been a challenge that you
have embarked on uniquely? Yeah, well, so also
related to the last question, the person who
maybe had one of the largest influences on me
is Taya Miles, who was a professor at the University
of Michigan when I met her, is now all fancy
at Harvard. And she wrote one of the first books
on the Cherokee Nation, who also owns slaves.
She later won a MacArthur Genius Grant. So, you
know, she's kind of done amazing work in this
area. But because she was one of the first, she
also got an extreme amount of hate. A lot of
Native people being very angry that she was talking
about this. Like, how dare you kind of air Native
people's dirty laundry? Like, this isn't even
your history. We suffered too. And all of these
things, like, that I actually haven't had to
deal with because of the time that I came along.
And so, you know, I'm very thankful for the work
that she did because she showed me. There was
a path forward in this kind of in -between space,
but also for the way that she, you know, had
to be the first to kind of answer for this kind
of history that I also get to tell. If you're
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Yeah. you know, a big part of this conversation
is going to be a Sankofa reflection because,
you know, not only are we talking about history,
but how that history impacts us now. And I imagine
that I imagined when I was reading your book.
And hearing you talk about this research and
this history, that there would be some backlash.
And so to hear that there was actually someone
that took that on initially probably helped,
you know, smooth the way for you. And thankfully,
you didn't have to fight that particular fight.
So I'm thankful to hear that. Along those lines,
you know, your work challenges mainstream narratives
about African -American history. Why do you think
this scholarship remains underrepresented in
public discourse? Well, so I just mentioned Dr.
Ty Miles. Her book came out in 2008. So my book
came out in 2021. And in that kind of in -between
space, there were a few other books published
also on the Cherokee Nation, none on the Chickasaw
and Choctaw Nations, which I focused on and the
nations I have a connection to. and i was yeah
i was so curious about that very question like
why why does this kind of seem like a topic no
one has ever heard of even though like you know
i know time all this book and like i know a few
of these other works um but i think it's because
it doesn't fit easily into a box and because
people want to think of african americans and
native americans in very specific ways um both
as oppressed peoples and so if you then kind
of get into the fact that yes Native Americans
clearly were oppressed and yet some of them also
oppressed others like it gets a little more complicated
people start to get a little uncomfortable like
well how can I feel bad for Native people if
they also had a slave you know and that's something
that some people just aren't willing to sit with
that kind of uncomfortable complexity Yeah. And
I think that this is a time where we're having
to deal with a lot of uncomfortable things, right?
A lot of uncomfortable realities. We're having
to look at our community with a different lens
and challenge a lot of our assumptions about
what we thought was or is, what we thought was
or is possible even. And I think that your research,
your book, is one of those things that makes
us, you know, I clenched my pearls several times
reading this book, okay? And for those who know
me well, know that I love roses because they
have thorns, okay? I am not a delicate, overly
delicate person, but I was clenching the pearls,
okay? And I've been here all the while. is a
part of the title of your book. It's an eye -opening
book. It's a sobering book. It will make you
angry. It will make you frustrated. It will also
give you a lot of aha moments. So what motivated
you to write it and how has it been received?
I mean, we talked a little bit about how, you
know, you were surprised that it's been fairly
well received. in terms of not getting as much
backlash as your counterpart has. But as I've
seen you on different podcasts and promoting
your book and sharing and book talks and things
like that, there's also some back and forth.
How would you describe that reception? Well,
I wanted to write this book to tell my family's
story. That is why I went to graduate school.
Like I always say, I would never be where I am,
which is a very happy place right now, if not
for... wanting to explore this history and wanting
to be the one who got to tell this history. So
being able to weave my family story into the
narrative of the first book was amazing. And
I'm very thankful that my publisher allowed me
to do that. As for the reception, that was also
kind of another, I'm not sure perfect storm is
the right metaphor there. It was the exact right
time, really. You know, 2021, we had just come
out of a year where... The United States was
discussing racism more than ever before. Right.
And so people were more willing then to go in
to this more complex topic and say, OK, we're
thinking about anti -Black racism at an infrastructure
level and at an individual kind of prejudice
level in different spaces, primarily still through
that white -Black dichotomy. But now here's a
book that's bringing another group in and saying,
well, you know, look, Native Americans have also
been impacted by this racial hierarchy created.
And people were willing to engage and people
were willing to really kind of, I think, look
into themselves. And I was talking to a friend,
a friend I made who was Chickasaw because he
read this book. And he said that he really appreciated
that I kind of say in the introduction. look,
I'm laying myself bare in this book. I'm willing
to talk about my family and some of the great
things they did and maybe some of the not so
great things they did that impacted other people.
And that allowed him and I think a lot of other
people to say, if she's willing to do this, maybe
I am also willing to do this. That's awesome.
Vulnerability, right? And showing that, you know,
no one group of people or person is infallible.
Right. We all have our struggles. We all have
our triumphs. We all have times when we have
been oppressed in some sense or other times is
what's what was interesting about this book is
seeing that Native American peoples were oppressors
and being oppressed at the same time. And that
is a very interesting place to be in. And I think
I want to go back to, you know, something that
I've heard a lot in our community coming up over
the years, which is what does it mean for African
-Americans or Black Americans? What does it really
mean when? You know, we're describing ourselves.
We're describing our families. Our families are
so unique. Our family histories are so interesting
in that we oftentimes don't have a specific place
to point to specifically in Africa. We have more
origin story as it relates to here in the Americas
because of the way that the transatlantic slave
trade and documentation happened or lack thereof.
And so people in the Black community would commonly
say, well, we got Indian in our family. And it
would explain things like skin complexion. It
would explain things like hair texture. It would
explain things like health conditions, health
issues. It could explain so many different things.
And what do you think this narrative or why do
you think this narrative is so deeply romanticized
in Black culture? That's a great question. I
mean, the... When I mentioned that I was looking
at my family and looking at these various clubs
and thinking, where do I fit? Part of that is
because of the way my dad looks. My dad is often
mistaken for a white man. And he never really
was interested in family history. He didn't know
anything that I later found out. But I assumed
it was from a white person. And I never would
have thought, oh, some of this comes actually
from Native people. So reconstructing our family
tree now, there are lots of white people in it.
Don't get me wrong. But the Native line is also
part of that. And so I didn't start as kind of
someone who already had that idea of like, oh,
there's Native American ancestry in our family.
Like I had actually never heard that. But I've
heard it from many people ever since I started
doing this research. And what I found from talking
to sociologists and doing my own research. It
really seems that having a Native American ancestor
is more attractive than having a white ancestor
because people don't know about the history of
Native American slave ownership. So when they
say we have Indian in our family, it's more a
romantic idea of, oh, one of our ancestors ran
away and was sheltered by a Native nation, you
know, or, oh, Native and Black people realized
that they were both being oppressed by the white
man. And so they got together and had a relationship
somehow. And this did happen at times, but it
was nowhere near the amount of people who were
enslaved by Native Americans. And so it's easier
to think of a Native ancestor in the same position
as your Black ancestor than, unfortunately, the
rampant sexual assault of Black women by their
white stakeholders or, you know, white men in
the community. It's been estimated that somewhere
from 40 to 75 percent of African -Americans have
white ancestry because of that. And so, you know,
that's part of the reason we look so different
and we have, you know, features or whatever that
come from that ancestry, but it's not someone
that people, not something that people want to
claim because it's not a happy story. And it
reminds us of that, you know, difficult history
and oppression that our ancestors had. Yeah.
Yeah. I definitely resonate with that. My family,
my mother's side in particular, my mother specifically,
was fortunate to take a deep dive into her family
ancestry and found out the most that she could.
And it got to a point where she discovered that
one of our ancestors, a great, great grandparent,
grandmother, in fact, was, as you just mentioned,
the result of... rape by a slave owner, white
male slave owner who happened to be Irish or
of Irish descent. And his solution for that child
resulting from his behavior, his violence onto
another woman of African descent was to send
her across the Ohio River. into Ohio so that
she could be free. And after listening to your
book, I thought more critically about that, about
how lonely she must have been, how difficult
that must have been for her and her mother, if
her mother was allowed to accompany her. At what
age was she sent to live away? What was she given
to help her to start on her own way? And so that
pain, of having to carry a child that is the
result of an unwanted sexual encounter, a violent
sexual encounter that the mother had no control
over, had no legal ramifications for, had no
protection from it ever happening again, then
having this child, you know, the mental and emotional
bond, what was that like for the mother? And
then also the quote unquote privilege of maybe
that child having more European features or what
we consider white features than maybe her brothers
and sisters who did not have the same father.
And so how does that resonate with the family?
I can recall a time where I kind of used it in
a social setting amongst other white people.
where we were having a casual conversation and,
you know, European ancestry and where your people
came up and they were, you know, having a great
time talking about, oh, Germany and Great Britain
and, you know, Italy or France or what have you.
And I said, well, I'm Irish. And so that made
for a very quiet end to that conversation. So
I definitely understand. where when my mother
found also some traces of evidence that indicated
we may also have Native American heritage, that
it was a lot, the assumption was that this was
probably potentially a more loving type of relationship
and not as violent as the other ancestor experience.
So on the flip side, Why don't Native American
communities express the same level of affinity
or acknowledgement regarding African ancestry?
I think we never question that as Black people,
whether it's, you know, oh, well, I have European
ancestry and white people do not tend to acknowledge
or wear as a badge their mutual Black ancestry,
right? Because it takes two. Right. So if I've
got a white ancestor, then you have a black ancestor.
Right. And that never gets acknowledged. The
same is true for Native Americans. If I have
a Native American ancestor, then you have a black
ancestor. What are your thoughts and reflections
on that conundrum? See, I love that you've asked
me that after your previous question, because
no one has ever asked me that before, even though
it's the obvious flip side. Right. And that's
because claiming a Native ancestor today is seen
as, you know, like exotic. And as we've said,
you know, maybe this connection to this loving
relationship or something that signals kind of
anti -colonialism, you know, fighting. Whereas
an African ancestor, like first you have to acknowledge
slavery because that Black person in that period
of time likely would have been a slave. No one
wants to do that. That's not fun. And then the
other thing is that being Black is, you know.
to an extent it's seen as like cool um i think
maybe especially to some people who want to say
certain things that they otherwise couldn't um
but for the most part it's not seen as attractive
like it's not seen as a good thing right um what
is that one thing like no one wants to be an
n -word like i've heard that before um because
no one wants the associated discrimination and
the The history is difficult unless you're just
claiming like, oh, like I have, you know, athletic
genes or whatever, whatever other stereotypes
are associated with black people. So, yeah, the
the native ancestor. Or why you have a nice tan
or like, yes. No one wants to claim us. Yeah,
it's true. It's true. And I think that that is
something that we are seeing. a shift. We're
starting to see more of a shift, right? At least
in my social circles and social media and things
like that, where there's a growing acknowledgement
of anti -Blackness within some Native American
communities, tribes, and social justice groups.
What do you think is driving this shift, you
know, where they're starting to acknowledge that
there are... Black people with Native ancestry
or Native people with Black ancestry that are
still a part of their tribe or their community?
You know, what do you think that's about that
they're starting to embrace this now or acknowledge
it? This has been such a slow movement. And I
didn't think about it in this way before a Chickasaw
friend of mine was like. we're decades behind
the African -American civil rights movement.
There has never been something like that for
Indian country, which is kind of how we talk
about broadly defined Indian nations in North
America. And so there are kind of small pockets,
like Ty's book, my book. There was in the late
1990s, like 1997 or 1998, there was a Navajo
woman who was also part Black. who was in the
news because she had won, it was called the Miss
Navajo Nation. And so it's kind of like Miss
America, except you're supposed to demonstrate
all the kinds of ways of being an ideal Navajo
woman. So she could weave, she could shear a
sheep, she could speak Navajo, like all the things.
And yet she still got a huge amount of racist
backlash because the idea was, how can she really
be Navajo when like she also looks Black? She
has a Navajo grandmother, you know, she can do
all of these things. And yet still there was
this pushback. And so it's been very, very gradual
that these conversations are happening. And I
think 2020 and 2021, again, was a time where
Native America, broadly defined, was kind of
following these conversations and very slowly
allowing themselves to think about, OK, Black
Lives Matter has also opened up conversations
about colonization. People are toppling Christopher
Columbus statues. We can talk about that Native
white dichotomy, but what does it look like if
we look at African -American protesters and think
about our own communities and how people talk
about Black people often? And so there was a
deep dive, I think, that has died out for some
people. But I would like to think that for a
lot of activists and a lot of people of the millennial
generation, that desire still remains. And I'm
kind of hopeful from talking to a number of people
when I visit colleges or when I do talks who
do say, you know, I still have that desire to
learn more about my nation's interactions with
Black people and the way we talk and think about
Black people today. And so, yeah, it's still
around, but, you know, just like with the United
States and anti -Black racism, it's kind of gone
underground in some ways. That's a wrap on this
episode of Questions You Didn't Ask. I'm Nyesha
Frey, and it's been a privilege to speak with
award -winning author Dr. Elena Roberts. Join
us next week as we continue our series, Sankofa
and Solidarity, uncovering Black and Native legacies
for health equity. See you then.