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Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask with
me, Nyesha Frey, and my guest, Julissa Soto,
as we continue the series. Ready or not, the
real talk Black and Latino communities need.
Let's pick up where we left off. One thing that's
interesting to me is that after the first election,
well, I should say after this election, right,
2024 and the 2016 election, a lot of people,
Black people in particular, started getting or
renewing their passports and started traveling
more. Specifically, Black people looking for
safer spaces to live where they could be their
full selves with less racism, less stress, discrimination,
oppression, things of that sort. You know, we're
all looking for the Shangri -La, right? Many
African -American travel influencers recommend
places like Mexico and other parts of Central
and Latin America. as places for us to move or
at least vacation for safety and other creature
comforts for survival and wellness so help me
and my audience understand what's going on in
mexico and any other parts of latin america you
feel comfortable sharing that has the citizens
of those countries moving here it seems like
we're going in opposite directions yeah you know
i I am, this is kind of interesting because I
have my retired home by the beach in Rosarito,
Mexico, by Tijuana, by the border. It's between
San Isidro and San Diego. And all of my neighbors
happen to be white or black, but not Mexican.
not Mexican. So it's kind of interesting that
when I go visit my country, then I see the white
folks in African Americans, you know, in Mexico,
and I get super excited. But let's just be real.
If you're not in your country, it's always going
to exist that discrimination, right? Now it's
the Mexicans discriminating against the white
folks. And the blacks. And then, you know, when
we're here, the same thing happens to us. This
is not our country. Right. So we just need to
accept and, you know, who we are and where we're
going. Right. But I honestly feel that if you're
talking about discrimination against black, blacks
suffer more discrimination in their own country.
than other countries. Even though it's some type
of discrimination between Latinos and Black,
I feel that still Latinos are less obvious with
their racism than the white folks. And the only
reason I say that is because this is your country.
And you get discriminated in your own country.
So how does people expect not to be discriminated
in a country that it's not theirs, right? And
this is, I'm talking about Julissa Soto, 27 years
of experience as an immigrant here in United
States, going back and forth between my country
and so forth. But it's interesting that you asked
me that because my neighbor happened to be black
and she owns three condominiums back home. And
she's living the good life in my country, which.
I admire her. And I say to her, you know, when
I come back home, we're going to be best friends
because we're both part of the American system,
you know. But it is interesting to me that they're
recommending you or the influencers are recommending
to go to those countries because even right now,
with all the immigration coming to United States,
the Venezuelans. It's a huge fight now between
the Mexicans and the Venezuelans because the
Venezuelans are arriving with asylee. They're
arriving legal. And some of us have been waiting
here in line for 20, 30 years to be documented
in the United States. But the president or past
president opened borders and let everybody come
in. And I certainly. You know, I don't want to
sound racist against my own community, but I
certainly believe that you need to pay your dues.
They're coming here demanding services, demanding
A, B, C, and D. And I'm like, hold on. It took
me 12 years and something and $30 ,000 approximately
to become a U .S. citizen. And you're coming
here legally and asking, not even asking, demanding
services, housing. welfare, TANF, you know, cash,
food stamps, and Medicaid. And I'm like, how
did that happen? Yeah, it's interesting to me
how we wind up in a situation where those who
are marginalized or minoritized are fighting
for the scraps, right? And we are constantly
trying to figure out you know, well, what do
you have and how did you get it? And, you know,
well, it took me, I was oppressed this way. And,
you know, we get into these conversations when
the bigger issue is sometimes overlooked, which
is what we're all striving for is equity, justice,
dignity, respect, human rights, civil rights.
And those things are experienced in this country,
but not by black people as a whole and not by
Latinos, whether they're Mexican, Venezuelan,
Puerto Rican, Dominican, Cuban, what have you.
Now, we might have a different conversation about
Cubans, but they're still. Remember, the Cubans
were the highest voters now for this new election.
So, yeah, we need to have a conversation about.
The Latinos and the better Latinos, quote unquote.
Right, right, right. So there's levels to everything.
And that's one thing that I learned, you know,
especially being a student at an HBCU, a large
HBCU, Florida A &M University, is that I learned
about the diversity of Black people, different
types of Black people, whether you're talking
about in this country or in the diaspora. And
then it got deeper in terms of my understanding
of the diaspora when I moved to New York. And
then it got further deep when I actually had
the chance to visit different parts of Africa.
So we know that we have similarities and we know
that we have differences and we know that there's
tension. But the idea is that we're all fighting
for these rights and promises that it seems like
only white people are benefiting from and affluent
white people, to be precise. As we're thinking
about, you know, how different people are coming
here, some people had to wait, other people are
making demands and things of that sort. I want
you to drill down on that a little bit because
some of us who either work in social services
and or receive things like WIC, food stamps,
Medicaid, all the other things that you mentioned.
I mean, is it safe to share how so many people
in line with us are what looks like and we're
confronting our assumptions? They look like newly
immigrated people. You know, how are they also
in line with and receiving what looks like the
same resources as U .S. citizens? I mean, is
it safe to discuss if these are loopholes or
if these are legal pathways? You know, I'm not
trying to out anybody. no no no no and you know
what um what i love about this interview is that
we're being real Because whatever you're talking
about, whatever I'm talking about, I bet with
you that is thousands of people out there, but
they don't want to speak like you and I, because
they think that we're going to get into a fight.
We're going to be confrontational. Oh, my God,
we're offending each other. No, let's just be
real. Let's just be real. You're an African -American
woman and I'm a Latino woman. And this conversation
should happen all the time because we're both
have questions. Right. And then when we don't
ask, we're just assuming. You know, the people
that you see maybe in line getting supplementary
nutrition assistance or TANF, you know, they
might be the refugees. Like I said to you, the
new arrivals, the Venezuelans, they come with
a different status, but they're not people from
other countries where we can apply for benefits.
And then when we fix our papers, right, we have
to have 40 qualified quarters of work. You know,
so that's the Mexicans and others. But if you
come here as an asylum or refugee, the system
changed. That's why you also see Africans from
Africa applying for benefits, right? And you're
like, how in the hell? They're applying and they
just arrived. How did that happen, right? So
it's different status. I came here undocumented,
so I never qualified. And I can guarantee you
that the majority of Latinos who happen to be
Mexican come here undocumented so we can receive
those benefits. And, you know, of course, sometimes
people think, oh, my God, they assume, right,
that we're all Mexicans because we kind of look
alike. You know, people said, that's rude, Pulisa.
And I said, no, we do look alike. Most of us,
we're five feet. We're five feet, but there's
little people and we all look alike. Like, don't
tell me that we don't think about, when I see
the Asian community, right? I don't know how
to distinguish who's Chinese, who's Japanese.
And then they tell me, look at their eyes. And
I'm like, for me, they all look alike. And I'm
not trying to be offensive. No, you're not, because
this is one of the things that came up when and
I'm just going to be very transparent, like I
like I have been the whole conversation. Yes.
When Janet Jackson came out and tried to say,
oh, well, they say she's black. I don't know
if she's black. Talk about Kamala. I know that
Kamala's father is from Jamaica and I know that
her mother is from India. But the way that she
presents is like a light skinned black girl from
Detroit, even though she grew up in California.
You know, a part of my experience, you know,
in regard to we all look alike, is that when
I went to Africa in particular, and even when
I first moved to East Harlem, I was comforted
by the fact that I recognized myself and my family.
in these African people or these Afro -Latino
people and these Dominican people. I say, y 'all
look like us. Like, I can't really tell until
you open your mouth, until you open your mouth.
And so that's when, you know, when we start talking
about racism and folks want to then get into
nationalism as it relates in this country, the
way that white people see you is they see you're
Black. You know, you can you can open your mouth
and make a distinction. You know, oh, well, my
father is Jamaican. My mother's Indian. And that's
why my texture is this way. And my hair, my complexion
is this way and blah, blah. You can explain it.
But at the end of the day. When I was growing
up, especially in the 80s and the 90s in the
South and North Carolina, you needed to make
a distinction. You're either black or you're
white. You know, it didn't matter. So when you
say we look alike, it's because we have similar
ancestry. Yes. And so we share very similar features,
whether it's height, complexion, hair texture,
bone structure, what have you. You know, we do
in a lot of ways look alike. Now, when people
take it too far and they're using that as a reason
to put you down. As a people, that's something
else. And we all know the difference. We know
the difference when someone is like, I remember
one of my clients when I was a substance abuse
counselor, he was a Dominican. And he came to
me and he was like, your complexion is so beautiful.
And you look, you know, he was being all, you
know, flowery and romantic, like, you know, Latino
and Dominican people are. And he was like, but
you remind me of one of my aunties. And so that
was a point of connection. And even though he
was a light -skinned Dominican brother, he saw
me and he could connect and relate to me because
I reminded him of one of his aunts. Now, I'm
from, you know, North Carolina. I have never
been to the Dominican Republic, but my ancestors
have. So, you know, we sit, we go in these lines,
we service these people, you know, we go to these
community outreach events and what have you.
And we see people and we say, what might be perceived
as a derogatory term. You know, I notice among
Black people, they call all Latinos Mexicans,
especially if they live in the Southeast. Oh,
yeah. I have heard that all the time. And it
does not bother me. I just smile because the
same thing happens to me when I see the Black
community. For me, you're Black. So, and believe
it or not, I see a lot of similarities in you
guys. And sometimes I get confused too. So I'm
like, okay, I see that they look alike too. And
somebody might say, no, or even my own husband
who happened to be black, a black man from Austin,
Texas. I said, you look kind of like LeBron James.
And he tell me. I don't look nothing like him.
I'm like, well, in my eyes, you do. You know,
like, and then when he go to Mexico with me.
Yeah, when he go to Mexico with me, people, you
know, people look at him and they're like, does
he know LeBron James? And I said, see, what did
I say to you? And he's like, and the same thing
goes to you guys. You all look alike to me. And
that's okay to say it that way. I don't think
we're being racist and I don't think we're discriminating
by saying that we look alike because we do. And
everybody calls Latinos Mexicans. And that's
the funny part. You know, for me, it's like,
well, the Mexicans over there and I'm like, no,
they're Colombians. And then they're like, oh.
And because those are your people, you can look
at them and tell the difference. Yes. Exactly.
And just by when they're talking to, I'm like,
oh my goodness. Yes, we speak so different. Even
in Mexico, in Colorado, the majority of the Mexicans
are from the North. I was born in the South.
Even we discriminate against the North and the
South among Mexicans. The North people think
that they're more advanced because they're closer
to the border. And, oh, my God, they're more
advanced. And then they talk about me, who is
from the South. They say that people from the
South, like me, were more close -minded. Because
we're South of Mexico. You're more traditional.
More traditional. So even among us, that exists,
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going right and i remember one thing that you
said when we got a chance to meet the first time
in person which was that a lot of people confuse
you and think that you're puerto rican yes most
of the time you know why they say that right
because let me tell you let me explain to you
why because Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I'm pretty. Yes, I'm pretty. No, but I know they
don't say it because I'm pretty, my friend. They
say it because I speak up and I speak out. And
usually Puerto Rican women are super strong and
they're outspoken. Mexican women are known by
being humble, abused by their men, having 20
,000 kids, cleaning and cooking. So when they
see a woman like me saying, I don't cook, I don't
clean. No, no, no. And I'm going to speak for
my rights. They're like, are you Puerto Rican?
And I'm like, I don't know if I should take that
as a compliment or offensive. And even my mother
-in -law, who happened to be black, she even
told me, I thought when she met me, I thought
the Mexicans were more humble. So these are comments
that we make against each other that we must
feel like, I was confused when she made that
comment. Like saying, So that's what you have
heard about Mexicans only? And then my husband's
friends, guess what they say when they know that
he's married to a Mexican? I bet she cooks really
good. And I'm like, I don't know how to cook.
And I'm Mexican. I was born and raised in Mexico,
you know? So see all the assumptions that we
make about people? And now that we start talking,
like this is going to be a pretty cool podcast
because... The Blacks and Latinos need to hear
this conversation that we're having in here.
Because I bet they're going to relate to this.
Right. So now I'm going to get a little deeper.
And I know you can go there with me. You've been
getting a little deeper the whole conversation,
mi amiga. So more deeper than that? I am. I'm
going there. So one reason why. I've observed,
many African -American people feel some resentment
towards Latinos. And I must admit, I've struggled
with this myself, is that when we look around,
we see how rapidly it appears that the Latino
community has been able to acquire major assets
and influence in the U .S. economy over African
-American people. What I mean by this is that
particularly in North Carolina, my hometown of
Raleigh, within 10 years, Latino immigrants have
been able to build banks, shopping centers, and
other lucrative companies that African -American
people have been shut out of by the white power
structures in America and in North Carolina specifically.
So many Latinos look at their progress and it
kind of reinforces their prejudice against African
-American people as being lazy or not being go
getters or not being smart or what have you.
And so many of them, in fact, do not hire African
-American people. And as we're looking towards,
you know, health equity and all of that includes
economic justice. How do we address this privilege
imparted to Latinos over African -American people?
You know, that is interesting that you say that
now that you're talking about that. Yeah. And
and as the Latinos, we look at the Asians. Look
how fast they built and they built just by doing
nails most of the time, you know. So we have
to think about. cheap labor, right? Mexicans,
or I'm going to say Latinos, because it's including
everyone, right? So I'm going to be inclusive.
Latinos are willing to work for less than African
Americans. And Latinos, like I haven't had a
day off in four weeks, Sunday through Sunday
through Sunday through Sunday. So somehow we
have a different type of work ethic, if you want
to call it that way. And of course, the white
folks love that because at the end of the day,
what they're paying me is pennies because look
at all the hours I'm giving to the white folks,
right? African -American, the blacks are not
willing to do that. If they don't get paid extra
for those extra hours, they're not going to go
for it. They're not thinking maybe, you know
what, I'm going to bust my ass right here for
a year or two, like we think. And then we're
going to build something, right? No, they don't
think that way. They're thinking we're being
discriminated. This is not fair. This is inequity.
And I totally get because you guys, your, your
rights are being violated. My rights are being
violated too, but we're willing to take it because
in our minds, this is not our country. So in
our minds, a lot of us are like, we're going
to make the money. We're going to do businesses
in here, but we may go back. Some of us think
that way. And some of us think. Yeah, we're going
to continue with this because then we're going
to build businesses that we can build more businesses.
Right. But working Sunday through Sunday. And
that's something that the African -American community
are not willing to do. They're more focused on
that discrimination, unfair pay. And they're
just not willing to do what we, the immigrants,
the refugees. And all of us are willing to do
it, right? So that at the end of the day, like
you say, the white folks are winning no matter
what. But we see it this way. But we see it this
way, my friend. That's when white folks are winning.
And that's what they're thinking. They're winning
with us. And in our mind is like, you're going
to win for a little bit. And then when we're
ready, we're going to build our own. And we don't
need you anymore. Or we're going to go back home
with the money we make here. You know, that's
her mentality. So we're going to work for you
Sunday through Sunday through Sunday. 60, 70,
80 hours for the same pay. Now you tell me, you
as an African -American woman, somebody comes
to you and me. They offer us $40 for 80 hours.
And you will be like, no, that's pennies. And
I will be like, okay, I'll take it. So they'll
come with me. You know, that's true. That's true.
So this is where history and context and cultural
context comes into play, because, you know, I
cannot argue with anything that you said at all.
What I can do is say that. Our people were brought
here forcefully and enslaved where we work for
free. We're terrorized, traumatized. for centuries
in this country. So when we say no more, it is
to honor our ancestors who fought and bled and
died brutally for us to be able to stand up with
respect and dignity in this country. So our motivation
comes from a totally different place. Not that
anyone is right or wrong. It's just that it comes
from a totally different place that we have become
a people in this country who has tried our best
to fight to make this country better and not
continue to siphon and extract resources from
us. We are still fighting for our fair share.
You know, it's crazy to know that when African
people who were enslaved, whose families were
destroyed and ripped apart, who were treated
like animals and livestock, who were bred like
cattle, when it came time to end that institutionalized
slavery, at least on paper, the American government
gave the white slaveholders reparations for their
profits lost, and they gave us nothing. So when
Latino people come here because of a variety
of different reasons, including being refugees
from violent places, and seeing this as an alternative,
and making the sacrifices that they make to get
here, they are not aware of that history. They
just see opportunity. Similar to Asians, you
know, Koreans, all the rest. They just see opportunity.
And then they also see and hear the stereotypes
about Black people. Oh, they're lazy. They just
don't want to work. They always complain. They
always using the race card. Right? That's what
white people tell them. That's what white people
tell you all. But they don't tell you why. Exactly.
No, exactly. And I have been learning, you know,
your history as I go. Because when I arrived
here, for me, you were an American. When I, you
know, when I started seeing black is when I came
to United States. Because when I was in Mexico,
black or white, you are an American to me. You
were not a black person. But when I got here
and I started learning that you are black and
then American instead of American first, that's
when I started to. Now, I'm aware of everything
you're saying. And I honor that. But I can never
replicate the struggle. You know what I mean?
No. We all have our different struggles. Yeah.
So I'm happy that you're talking about this because
we're educating communities. And that's true.
We don't know. We don't know all that history.
You know, when a Native American approached me
and said that they were raping, that they were
all this, and I'm like, my friend, I am ignorant.
Please educate me on your history. We're all
trying here to survive and thrive together. So
it's learning history. And I totally get what
you what you say that you're like, no, I'm not
taking 80 hours a week for the same pay. Am I
going back to slavery or what? Yeah, exactly.
Or sharecropping or any of that stuff. Yeah.
And I totally get where you come from. But we
don't see it that way because we we didn't go
through that. Right. You know what I mean? I
do. And I do appreciate. You know, we've said
this all through the conversation. I appreciate
one. I knew that you would be the person to talk
to. Right. I appreciate us being able to share
this honestly and openly. And I think I also
appreciate I don't want anybody else to go through.
I think most black people don't want anybody
else to go through what we went through. That
is not what we're about. I think one of the things
that hurts us. Is that people who come here who
are not white, we're not talking about the French
people or the white Canadians or, you know, the
white Australians or anybody else. We're talking
about non -white people who come here. That they
unfortunately are ignorant. They don't know.
That's what I mean by ignorant. I'm not. They
don't know our history to understand that our
struggle, our fight, that that tenacity. To say,
we're not doing this for less. We're going to
call you out on your racism. We're going to stand
up and fight. Those fights is what made it possible
for people to come here and make a way. Because
before that, it was all for white people. And
they didn't mind putting that up everywhere all
the time. But what white people do, and I mean
this especially in terms of the way that our
institutions and our structures are set up. Is
that when people come here, even for African
people who immigrate here, they make sure that
the narrative is for everyone to look down on
us. Why? Because if we truly have solidarity
and people truly see our struggle and identify
with our struggle and understand what we're fighting
for and how if we all work together for the unified
goal, it will displace them. it will shake this
power structure to its core. It will require
white people to have to give something up, give
up some power, give up some privilege, give up
some prosperity to share, to be collective. And
so they must put us down and make us look bad
so that other people won't listen to us. And
so that other people won't identify with us.
And so that other people won't walk alongside
us. And that is why I think, in my opinion, in
my experience, in my professional expertise,
that Black people oftentimes, African -American
people oftentimes feel resentment towards non
-white immigrants in particular. You know, we
see white people as white people. If you come
from... Great Britain or, you know, Ireland or
whatever, you know, until you prove yourself
otherwise as an accomplice, an ally or something,
you know, of relevance to our struggle, we see
you the same. Yes. Because we know you have the
same history. Your ancestors came here and raped
and pillaged and, you know, enslaved people just
like everybody else. Or you did it in your own
community. Like in Australia, you did the same
thing to the indigenous people there. So we already
know who you are. So that's kind of just my take
on that. Now, as we wrap up, and this is such
a rich and beautiful conversation, I'm always
so happy to talk with you, Lisa. And I just want
to say thank you so much for bringing all of
yourself to this conversation and always being
consistent and a powerful, powerful advocate
and doer. She's not just a talker. She is a doer.
My last question to you is what would you say
to someone who feels like their voice doesn't
matter? What would I say to that someone? Well,
I would say 27 years ago, I thought that my voice
was never going to matter until I started speaking
up. And then I started speaking out and I noticed
that someone was noticing me. No, it was not
overnight. It's going to take you years and years.
And whoever wants to speak up and have a voice
out there, just know that you're going to get
500 no's before you get one yes. And the people
are going to help you doubt your own ideas, your
own way of thinking. They're going to challenge
it every day because when you're different and
you think different. they might try to shut that
voice. So please don't get discouraged. If you
have new ideas, if you think that you're smart
and if you think that you can be loud and if
you think that you have something for us, please
speak out. Please speak up too. Please reach
out to me. I would love to know your ideas because
your voice to me matters and I don't care who
you are. Whoever is listening to this podcast
and think that don't have a voice and that their
voice don't matter, don't matter. Here you're
talking to somebody who was undocumented, crossed
the border in the trunk of a car, was abused,
attempt to kill herself. 27 years later, I'm
one of the Office of the Health Equity Commissioner.
I am your commissioner in the state of Colorado.
So my voice didn't matter. Yes, yes, indeed.
And what a wonderful testimony to come out on
the other side and still be fighting the good
fight. Thank you so much, Julissa. Thank you.
And thank you for inviting me to your podcast.
And to everyone out there, please follow me on
LinkedIn, Julissa Soto. Thank you very much.