WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Hey y 'all, welcome to Questions You Didn't Ask. 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.179 Did you know that this very spot could be showcasing 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.320 your business or event? Whether it's an audio 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.460 ad on our podcast, or a visual ad on our new 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:18.100 YouTube station, or even both, we've got the 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.620 space for you. Nyesha Frey Consulting is reaching 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.420 a growing audience of over a thousand leaders 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.839 who are passionate about health equity, social 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:32.070 justice, and civil rights activism. These are 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.329 professionals just like you working across higher 00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:40.409 education, research, healthcare, nonprofit, government, 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:44.030 and even public health sectors. 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Get 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.269 in the mix and let's make an impact together. 00:01:19.590 --> 00:01:22.469 Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask with 00:01:22.469 --> 00:01:25.790 me, Naisha Frey, and my guest, Jesse McCoy, as 00:01:25.790 --> 00:01:30.260 we continue the series, Justice. or just us how 00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:34.319 law health and equity collide in america let's 00:01:34.319 --> 00:01:36.439 pick up where we left off you have brought up 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:40.819 exactly the thing that really pushed me to have 00:01:40.819 --> 00:01:44.659 this series and invite you on we have a presidential 00:01:44.659 --> 00:01:49.000 candidate with multiple felony convictions yep 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.879 running in the 2024 elections and more on the 00:01:52.879 --> 00:02:01.510 way and This is an obvious inconsistency and 00:02:01.510 --> 00:02:06.269 exception to the rule and law that we are experiencing, 00:02:06.489 --> 00:02:09.710 right? Because the compromised Supreme Court, 00:02:09.770 --> 00:02:11.870 as you mentioned earlier, and probably some other 00:02:11.870 --> 00:02:15.789 judges that were appointed by 45 as well, said 00:02:15.789 --> 00:02:19.849 it was okay for him to be a presidential candidate. 00:02:19.909 --> 00:02:24.530 It's okay for a convicted felon to run for the 00:02:24.530 --> 00:02:28.550 highest office. in this land and potentially 00:02:28.550 --> 00:02:33.169 in the world but like you mentioned jay kwan 00:02:33.169 --> 00:02:44.069 and uh tanisha cannot get a bond insured certificate 00:02:44.069 --> 00:02:48.469 in order for them to become a barber yep they 00:02:48.469 --> 00:02:53.409 cannot qualify for housing they cannot qualify 00:02:53.409 --> 00:02:57.780 for food stamps They are going to get released 00:02:57.780 --> 00:03:01.780 from prison. They might get a program to support 00:03:01.780 --> 00:03:05.580 them for the first six months, even though this 00:03:05.580 --> 00:03:08.360 conviction is going to be on their record. And 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:10.639 not even just a conviction, the charge. They 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:13.460 might have beat the conviction. The charge is 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:15.060 going to be on their record for the rest of their 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:17.780 lives. But the only support that is available 00:03:17.780 --> 00:03:21.340 for them is within the first six months of release. 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:26.009 There's no support if you beat your charge. And 00:03:26.009 --> 00:03:29.909 you had to miss work to fight the charge. The 00:03:29.909 --> 00:03:34.750 job's gone. But this rich white man, this is, 00:03:34.750 --> 00:03:37.409 you know, for those people that are not sure, 00:03:37.430 --> 00:03:39.210 and I don't think that these people listen to 00:03:39.210 --> 00:03:41.830 my show, but for those people that are not sure 00:03:41.830 --> 00:03:45.349 if white supremacy and institutionalized racism 00:03:45.349 --> 00:03:48.830 doesn't exist, if they are still, you know, in 00:03:48.830 --> 00:03:52.629 the fantasy of the idea that we are a post -racial 00:03:52.629 --> 00:03:57.159 society. This example of the 45th president running 00:03:57.159 --> 00:04:05.120 for the presidency again after January 6th, after 00:04:05.120 --> 00:04:08.539 inciting a riot on our Capitol, which I took 00:04:08.539 --> 00:04:12.060 personal offense to, and I think most Americans 00:04:12.060 --> 00:04:18.339 should because that's our Capitol building. Who 00:04:18.339 --> 00:04:20.459 are you to go in there and trash it? What are 00:04:20.459 --> 00:04:25.680 you talking about? Not to mention. People who 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:31.480 are Africans who were enslaved built it in all 00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:37.579 of its glory. And you chose to unleash a violent 00:04:37.579 --> 00:04:43.100 coup on our Congress and your vice president. 00:04:43.300 --> 00:04:46.319 And the police. Don't forget the police. And 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:48.019 the police. Blue eyes didn't matter that day. 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:52.120 Right. But, you know, you've got this extreme. 00:04:54.000 --> 00:04:57.300 inconsistency and exception. What are some of 00:04:57.300 --> 00:04:59.759 the inconsistencies and exceptions to the rules 00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:01.480 that you've observed over the course of your 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:04.579 career? And how does it make your work easier 00:05:04.579 --> 00:05:09.899 or harder when you're working for the human and 00:05:09.899 --> 00:05:14.300 civil rights of people in our community? I think 00:05:14.300 --> 00:05:19.279 that all rules have exceptions, right? Part of 00:05:19.279 --> 00:05:24.529 being a lawyer is people give you 30 ,000 books 00:05:24.529 --> 00:05:28.189 of rules, statutes and stuff in cases, decisions. 00:05:29.050 --> 00:05:32.250 But at the heart of it is challenge everything, 00:05:32.470 --> 00:05:35.209 right? Challenge everything. Now, there are some 00:05:35.209 --> 00:05:37.769 battles that I challenge that I do not win, right? 00:05:38.029 --> 00:05:39.810 There are some battles that I challenge that 00:05:39.810 --> 00:05:41.709 they might consider it and think it's the right 00:05:41.709 --> 00:05:44.850 thing to do, but it's not the law, right? And 00:05:44.850 --> 00:05:46.149 then there are some battles that are in line 00:05:46.149 --> 00:05:48.250 with the law. So you're all over the place. But 00:05:48.250 --> 00:05:50.930 what I'll say is I have personally observed. 00:05:51.709 --> 00:05:56.430 That rules are designed for the masses. Like 00:05:56.430 --> 00:05:59.170 they're not designed for the elite. They're not 00:05:59.170 --> 00:06:01.389 designed. There's always a workaround for everybody 00:06:01.389 --> 00:06:04.910 else. Right. On top of that, rules are only as 00:06:04.910 --> 00:06:08.069 good as their enforcement mechanism. And if the 00:06:08.069 --> 00:06:10.569 enforcement mechanism is busy looking one way 00:06:10.569 --> 00:06:12.910 while people are doing it on the other way, then, 00:06:12.910 --> 00:06:15.529 you know, it is what it is. So when you think 00:06:15.529 --> 00:06:17.430 about things like, you know, I can remember. 00:06:17.959 --> 00:06:19.899 the wall street brokers that were getting tarp 00:06:19.899 --> 00:06:22.920 money and having cocaine fuel yacht parties with 00:06:22.920 --> 00:06:25.740 tax dollars right like so and it was like ah 00:06:25.740 --> 00:06:30.000 going hard in the pain right you know whereas 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.480 with this uh you know ppp loan fraud they were 00:06:33.480 --> 00:06:35.779 coming out to people throwing folk in jail uh 00:06:35.779 --> 00:06:40.500 with the exception of who yeah absolutely absolutely 00:06:40.500 --> 00:06:45.180 so my thing is everybody you know understands 00:06:45.180 --> 00:06:48.529 kind of these systems work only to the benefit 00:06:48.529 --> 00:06:53.990 of those who put them in place and who know the 00:06:53.990 --> 00:06:56.009 loopholes to get around them. That's why everybody 00:06:56.009 --> 00:06:58.149 gets lawyers to try to figure out what the loopholes 00:06:58.149 --> 00:07:00.829 are. But the loopholes themselves don't even 00:07:00.829 --> 00:07:03.629 help you. They only help you if you are what 00:07:03.629 --> 00:07:05.629 Paul Mooney would say, the complexion for protection, 00:07:05.970 --> 00:07:11.750 right? So it's sad. But again, I've always said 00:07:11.750 --> 00:07:14.569 that I think America's biggest problem is... 00:07:15.159 --> 00:07:19.199 Like we do not want to let racism go at all for 00:07:19.199 --> 00:07:22.379 some reason, because if we had an even system, 00:07:22.540 --> 00:07:26.199 most of these rules would be fine. But even our 00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:29.000 Supreme Court. Right. A lot of people are shocked 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:31.680 now because the Supreme Court is now seemingly 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:34.439 compromised. You've got Alito with the stop the 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:37.060 steal flag flying at his house. You got luxury 00:07:37.060 --> 00:07:42.839 trips and yachts from conservative donors, all 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:46.000 this stuff. Even with that, this isn't the first 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:48.319 time that the United States Supreme Court has 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.779 been compromised. Right. Right. When Dred Scott 00:07:51.779 --> 00:07:54.120 argued all the way from St. Louis to the Supreme 00:07:54.120 --> 00:07:56.980 Court that he should be a free man. Justice Tanney 00:07:56.980 --> 00:07:59.480 said a black man has no right, said a white man 00:07:59.480 --> 00:08:02.879 has the honor. Right. And that was law for 50 00:08:02.879 --> 00:08:09.079 years. Right. So I think what I have have developed 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:12.540 kind of a mentality of is. I'm never going to 00:08:12.540 --> 00:08:16.339 allow a court system to have the final say on 00:08:16.339 --> 00:08:19.279 how things operate. The way our system is set 00:08:19.279 --> 00:08:21.459 up is the courts get to make decisions that are 00:08:21.459 --> 00:08:24.699 in their purview. Legislators get to make rules 00:08:24.699 --> 00:08:26.800 that they feel like are in their purview. And 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.199 the executive gets to enforce the things that 00:08:29.199 --> 00:08:32.980 they care about. Right. What it means to me is 00:08:32.980 --> 00:08:35.759 you need to have hooks at all three branches 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:38.000 of government, right? And when the court don't 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:40.120 want to act right, make sure you got an executive 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:42.179 that's going to be okay. When the executive don't 00:08:42.179 --> 00:08:44.259 want to act right, make sure you got a Congress 00:08:44.259 --> 00:08:45.659 that's going to be okay or a General Assembly 00:08:45.659 --> 00:08:48.639 that's going to be okay. And I know that's a 00:08:48.639 --> 00:08:50.700 lot of work. Vote in every election, please. 00:08:50.779 --> 00:08:54.539 Not just every four years, every two years. And 00:08:54.539 --> 00:08:57.539 vote down ballot because a lot of people, again, 00:08:57.700 --> 00:09:00.480 at the bar. Local elections matter the most. 00:09:01.120 --> 00:09:03.580 Yes, people get upset with me and they be like, 00:09:03.740 --> 00:09:06.139 no, you need to tell you need to tell Joe like 00:09:06.139 --> 00:09:08.539 I know Joe Biden personally. You need to tell 00:09:08.539 --> 00:09:11.440 Joe that he need to do X, Y and Z. And I'm like, 00:09:11.460 --> 00:09:13.940 well, first off, Joe don't control Durham public 00:09:13.940 --> 00:09:17.059 school system. So that's nothing to do with Joe. 00:09:17.139 --> 00:09:19.460 I'd be wasting his time if I said that. Yeah. 00:09:19.659 --> 00:09:22.220 Iran is invading North Carolina. That's different. 00:09:22.419 --> 00:09:26.720 Right. Right. So, you know, one is just trying 00:09:26.720 --> 00:09:29.080 to give people the civics education of like, 00:09:29.179 --> 00:09:32.240 where do you go? But then once you get the information 00:09:32.240 --> 00:09:35.200 following through. Right. And I think the thing 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:38.440 that I love about local elections is that those 00:09:38.440 --> 00:09:42.000 candidates are accessible. Right. You may never 00:09:42.000 --> 00:09:44.559 meet the president. Right. You may never see 00:09:44.559 --> 00:09:47.820 a president in life outside of TV. Right. But. 00:09:48.250 --> 00:09:51.289 Your mayor, your city council, you see them. 00:09:51.350 --> 00:09:53.309 They're at the grocery store. They go to the 00:09:53.309 --> 00:09:55.669 same school your kids go to, unless they, you 00:09:55.669 --> 00:10:01.850 know, these weird charter, charter. Your kids 00:10:01.850 --> 00:10:04.750 go to your school, you know, so they are approachable. 00:10:04.990 --> 00:10:07.950 And you can hold them accountable at the meetings 00:10:07.950 --> 00:10:10.009 or if you see them out and about and they're 00:10:10.009 --> 00:10:11.309 not doing what they're supposed to be doing. 00:10:11.450 --> 00:10:14.830 Right. You may or may not see a governor, but 00:10:14.830 --> 00:10:18.019 you probably will feel the impact. of the governor's 00:10:18.019 --> 00:10:20.980 enforcement policies. One of the things that 00:10:20.980 --> 00:10:23.759 I was really happy for was during the period 00:10:23.759 --> 00:10:27.899 of COVID when we were at risk of mass eviction 00:10:27.899 --> 00:10:31.139 because folks weren't working, we had a governor 00:10:31.139 --> 00:10:34.080 who was bold enough to step out from everybody 00:10:34.080 --> 00:10:36.620 else and say, no, I'm going to do my own moratorium 00:10:36.620 --> 00:10:39.669 on eviction. stop people from being a big deal. 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:42.649 And he paid for it because then you had the crazies 00:10:42.649 --> 00:10:44.809 that went to Jones Street and went to downtown 00:10:44.809 --> 00:10:47.450 Raleigh and, you know, complaining and threatening 00:10:47.450 --> 00:10:49.909 them or whatever. But at the same time, he did 00:10:49.909 --> 00:10:51.970 something that was from a position of leadership 00:10:51.970 --> 00:10:55.070 that he should have done that I appreciate. Right. 00:10:55.529 --> 00:10:58.269 You know, so it's there are so many levers. And 00:10:58.269 --> 00:11:00.789 I think it's easy to get discouraged when you 00:11:00.789 --> 00:11:03.769 want the person to be on the top of that ticket 00:11:03.769 --> 00:11:06.289 to win. And when they don't win, you know, like. 00:11:07.120 --> 00:11:09.379 the Hillary laws, I was done with America. I 00:11:09.379 --> 00:11:12.019 was like, oh, I can't believe that y 'all going 00:11:12.019 --> 00:11:13.639 to let this man who ain't never worked in federal 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:16.179 government be a president of the United States 00:11:16.179 --> 00:11:18.759 and this lady spent her whole career here? Whatever. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:21.039 You can love her, hate her, cool, but you can't 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:23.460 tell me she's going to want to qualify. We got 00:11:23.460 --> 00:11:25.100 another qualified one that he's going to have 00:11:25.100 --> 00:11:27.159 to run against, so we about to see. We about 00:11:27.159 --> 00:11:29.240 to find out. This is even worse because this 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:32.639 is not just qualified, but it's like HBCU educated. 00:11:33.279 --> 00:11:37.169 If you've been to a homecoming, If you've been 00:11:37.169 --> 00:11:40.970 to a staff show, if you've been to anything associated, 00:11:41.250 --> 00:11:43.429 I don't care if you went to eat at Olean's or 00:11:43.429 --> 00:11:48.230 any restaurant. Talk about Olean's! You need 00:11:48.230 --> 00:11:51.529 to be the first one up in this election. Don't 00:11:51.529 --> 00:11:53.769 even wait until November 5th. Early vote. Go 00:11:53.769 --> 00:11:57.049 ahead, early vote. In North Carolina, early voting 00:11:57.049 --> 00:12:00.850 starts October 17th, by the way. Thursday, October 00:12:00.850 --> 00:12:03.610 17th. You don't have to wait until November 5th. 00:12:04.009 --> 00:12:06.870 And actually, I think this is going to air in 00:12:06.870 --> 00:12:09.769 November. But either way, we are promoting. We 00:12:09.769 --> 00:12:12.950 are promoting. We are encouraging. And this is, 00:12:12.950 --> 00:12:15.450 again, this isn't just about every four years. 00:12:15.789 --> 00:12:18.429 This is, look, you don't like what happened in 00:12:18.429 --> 00:12:23.009 2024? Gear up and get ready for 2026. And like 00:12:23.009 --> 00:12:27.690 Jesse just said, hey, all power. This is the 00:12:27.690 --> 00:12:31.370 other thing. All power to the people who are 00:12:31.370 --> 00:12:37.139 brave. enough to run for office. And if you happen 00:12:37.139 --> 00:12:39.899 to be one of those people who say, I've had enough, 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:42.340 I'm tired of talking about it at the hair salon, 00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:44.480 I'm tired of hearing my husband talking about 00:12:44.480 --> 00:12:47.360 his conversations at the barbershop, I'm ready 00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:51.120 to do something. Put your name down and let us 00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:53.960 know that you're out there because we need you. 00:12:54.559 --> 00:12:58.100 Absolutely. And don't feel like you have to be 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:00.259 on your own either. I think that's what the coalition 00:13:00.259 --> 00:13:02.759 is about. If you've already been putting the 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:05.159 work into your community, then your community 00:13:05.159 --> 00:13:07.259 should show up for you when you do stuff. If 00:13:07.259 --> 00:13:09.820 they if they rock with you like that, have you 00:13:09.820 --> 00:13:14.139 been like half behind doing it? I don't know 00:13:14.139 --> 00:13:16.919 about that. You know, it happens to community. 00:13:17.000 --> 00:13:19.299 Community keeps you home. Community keeps you 00:13:19.299 --> 00:13:22.080 humble. Community keeps you focused. Community 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:23.980 can cut you down as much as they can build you 00:13:23.980 --> 00:13:27.220 up. Right. So I think it's important to be grounded. 00:13:27.259 --> 00:13:29.740 I don't think that running for office should 00:13:29.740 --> 00:13:32.169 be the first time. that people in the community 00:13:32.169 --> 00:13:34.629 see you out and about. I think if they already 00:13:34.629 --> 00:13:36.169 know you and they see you running for election, 00:13:36.330 --> 00:13:37.870 they probably going to have a certain level of 00:13:37.870 --> 00:13:41.070 enthusiasm about seeing somebody they know getting 00:13:41.070 --> 00:13:43.490 into the position. You already going to get questions 00:13:43.490 --> 00:13:45.389 about things and privileges that they want you 00:13:45.389 --> 00:13:53.710 to extend. If you're enjoying the show as much 00:13:53.710 --> 00:13:56.690 as we love creating it, consider showing your 00:13:56.690 --> 00:14:01.720 support by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit buymeacoffee 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:08.159 .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:15.100 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. All one word. 00:14:15.179 --> 00:14:19.860 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:14:19.860 --> 00:14:23.000 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:26.179 the high quality content you've come to expect 00:14:26.179 --> 00:14:29.539 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you. for 00:14:29.539 --> 00:14:32.100 your continued support. And let's keep the conversation 00:14:32.100 --> 00:14:35.379 going. So let's start talking about some solutions 00:14:35.379 --> 00:14:38.159 then. You know, I come from, of course, the public 00:14:38.159 --> 00:14:40.500 health background and focused on health equity 00:14:40.500 --> 00:14:44.279 and deeply involved in this space. And we often 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:47.919 look for systems -based solutions. I often look 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.679 for systems -based solutions to improve the condition 00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:55.129 of vulnerable populations. What legal or policy 00:14:55.129 --> 00:14:57.470 interventions do you think could have the most 00:14:57.470 --> 00:15:00.509 meaningful impact on improving health and life 00:15:00.509 --> 00:15:03.090 outcomes for people, especially those with felony 00:15:03.090 --> 00:15:06.210 convictions? So felony convictions, I'll say 00:15:06.210 --> 00:15:09.269 again, I'm not an expert on those things. At 00:15:09.269 --> 00:15:11.750 this point, I'm more of a housing guy. So I can 00:15:11.750 --> 00:15:13.570 definitely tell you the housing. Yeah, talk about 00:15:13.570 --> 00:15:18.350 it. One, right to housing. We need to revamp 00:15:18.350 --> 00:15:20.889 how we do housing in America. There are nations 00:15:20.889 --> 00:15:23.629 who have rights to housing. who are doing this 00:15:23.629 --> 00:15:26.529 better than us. So we need to revamp our right 00:15:26.529 --> 00:15:29.049 to housing. That's followed by a right to counsel. 00:15:29.429 --> 00:15:31.870 So anytime that somebody is getting evicted, 00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:34.129 they need to be able to be provided an attorney 00:15:34.129 --> 00:15:37.309 who can help them because 90 % of the landlords 00:15:37.309 --> 00:15:39.870 are going to have attorneys and most people who 00:15:39.870 --> 00:15:41.370 go to the eviction court don't. And that's why 00:15:41.370 --> 00:15:43.350 the eviction numbers and rates are what they 00:15:43.350 --> 00:15:46.529 are. And then up next, development policies, 00:15:46.610 --> 00:15:48.389 right? So there's a lot of issues around this 00:15:48.389 --> 00:15:52.269 term affordable housing. Affordable housing is 00:15:52.269 --> 00:15:55.750 kind of a misnomer because affordability as it 00:15:55.750 --> 00:15:58.649 stands right now is dictated based on HUD value, 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:02.570 which is a national measure. But a lot of people 00:16:02.570 --> 00:16:05.250 in Durham County don't make what somebody at 00:16:05.250 --> 00:16:07.350 the national level would be. So affordable housing 00:16:07.350 --> 00:16:10.210 is essentially based for people who make $65 00:16:10.210 --> 00:16:13.769 ,000 a year. What are you in Durham County? You 00:16:13.769 --> 00:16:16.769 make a 22 .5, right? Right. it's not going to 00:16:16.769 --> 00:16:19.009 be affordable for you. So we need to make a more 00:16:19.009 --> 00:16:22.309 localized metric for how we deem things to be 00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:25.570 affordable and then stand behind the encouragement 00:16:25.570 --> 00:16:28.490 of development for those places. And if developers 00:16:28.490 --> 00:16:30.570 don't want to come into those places because 00:16:30.570 --> 00:16:33.149 it's not a profit motive, well, we need to look 00:16:33.149 --> 00:16:35.049 at the inventory we already have and say, well, 00:16:35.090 --> 00:16:37.970 what's being abandoned? What can be used, right? 00:16:38.409 --> 00:16:42.190 So I think those are like policies to help in 00:16:42.190 --> 00:16:44.950 the housing space. Now, in criminal justice space, 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.519 I think that the first thing is I'm a big, big, 00:16:49.580 --> 00:16:53.860 big proponent of diversion programs. I don't 00:16:53.860 --> 00:16:55.379 know, like at this point, since I haven't done 00:16:55.379 --> 00:16:57.480 criminal defense in a long time, I don't know 00:16:57.480 --> 00:17:00.059 how far they've expanded them. But we used to 00:17:00.059 --> 00:17:03.519 have people go to food banks, Salvation Army, 00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:06.720 whatever the case may be. And instead of us throwing 00:17:06.720 --> 00:17:09.039 you in jail or putting a record or giving you 00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:12.529 a record, you would do. work for let's say 10 00:17:12.529 --> 00:17:15.230 hours 20 hours whatever and then get a letter 00:17:15.230 --> 00:17:18.210 from the supervisor at that facility and i think 00:17:18.210 --> 00:17:20.089 that was helpful for a couple different reasons 00:17:20.089 --> 00:17:22.210 so one it was helpful because it kept you from 00:17:22.210 --> 00:17:24.670 getting a record number two it was helpful because 00:17:24.670 --> 00:17:28.009 now you have a connection to the community there's 00:17:28.009 --> 00:17:30.109 somebody if you ever say i got some free time 00:17:30.109 --> 00:17:33.170 on my hands let me holla at don at the food bank 00:17:33.170 --> 00:17:35.589 like let me like you you can you have people 00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.900 now right right number two Sometimes those same 00:17:38.900 --> 00:17:41.240 places turn around and need people that they 00:17:41.240 --> 00:17:44.420 can employ to work with. So if they have some 00:17:44.420 --> 00:17:47.619 funds they come into and they know that you're 00:17:47.619 --> 00:17:49.779 a hard worker and you enjoy just being there, 00:17:49.900 --> 00:17:52.299 they might have a job for you. So now you got 00:17:52.299 --> 00:17:54.059 less time to be out in the street doing what 00:17:54.059 --> 00:17:56.519 you do and more time to be doing something productive 00:17:56.519 --> 00:17:58.519 and build a relationship with someone who can 00:17:58.519 --> 00:18:00.059 write a recommendation for you if you want to 00:18:00.059 --> 00:18:03.160 go to school or whatever the case may be. And 00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:05.160 then on top of that, like I know this sounds 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:07.940 crazy, but. Especially in Durham County, we have 00:18:07.940 --> 00:18:12.440 a lot of progressive judges who look like us. 00:18:12.579 --> 00:18:15.160 Right. And one of the things that I hear in the 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.400 back door when we talk in the chamber, people 00:18:18.400 --> 00:18:20.019 don't want to see a vote that look like them 00:18:20.019 --> 00:18:22.680 in the jail. Right. They will. They will. Don't 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:25.480 get it twisted. They will. But they don't want 00:18:25.480 --> 00:18:29.779 to. Right. If you can have a legitimate reason 00:18:29.779 --> 00:18:32.380 for what happened, for what you did, we can provide 00:18:32.380 --> 00:18:36.359 an alternative. I think people are more apt to 00:18:36.359 --> 00:18:39.680 accept that. We want jails to be for the people 00:18:39.680 --> 00:18:41.500 who just determine that they're not going to 00:18:41.500 --> 00:18:44.200 make it work. Right. Right. You want to threaten 00:18:44.200 --> 00:18:46.200 the whole society. You want to be a danger to 00:18:46.200 --> 00:18:48.880 everybody. Yeah. Maybe you belong in jail or 00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:51.599 prison. That's different. But most people like 00:18:51.599 --> 00:18:54.619 I did criminal defense for a long time. The number 00:18:54.619 --> 00:18:57.279 of people I represented who did the class ABC 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:01.579 felony stuff. Very small. Very small. The number 00:19:01.579 --> 00:19:03.980 of people I represented who did property crimes 00:19:03.980 --> 00:19:07.660 or who did crimes of poverty or something like 00:19:07.660 --> 00:19:11.980 that, astronomical. If you took out the people 00:19:11.980 --> 00:19:15.539 who had substance abuse issues and the people 00:19:15.539 --> 00:19:17.720 who had property crimes issues, you wouldn't 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:20.500 have a jail. You wouldn't have a jail at all. 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:22.859 And then there are so many people, because I 00:19:22.859 --> 00:19:24.940 did criminal defense in Durham and Wake County. 00:19:25.119 --> 00:19:28.619 In Wake County, The homeless population commits 00:19:28.619 --> 00:19:31.519 crimes in October, November when it gets cold. 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.400 Because it's cold, right. So they can have three 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:35.799 meals and a place to live. That is the saddest 00:19:35.799 --> 00:19:37.420 thing in the world. Like, I don't want somebody 00:19:37.420 --> 00:19:39.960 going to jail just so they can have security 00:19:39.960 --> 00:19:43.539 and a place to live. Like, we need to do better 00:19:43.539 --> 00:19:45.619 about caring about our fellow men and investing 00:19:45.619 --> 00:19:48.259 in things that are going to create housing, create 00:19:48.259 --> 00:19:51.079 opportunity. So those are the immediate policies. 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:54.500 The next policy is an employment policy. I think. 00:19:54.970 --> 00:19:59.250 People deserve a livable wage. Yes. And I think 00:19:59.250 --> 00:20:03.369 that livable wage is relative because, you know, 00:20:03.430 --> 00:20:06.150 like what is livable in Durham may not necessarily 00:20:06.150 --> 00:20:09.450 be Charlotte. Right. But I think it's important 00:20:09.450 --> 00:20:11.650 that people be able to feel like they have some 00:20:11.650 --> 00:20:14.589 kind of incentive to participate in the economic 00:20:14.589 --> 00:20:17.990 system. Right. So I would love a world where 00:20:17.990 --> 00:20:20.170 people are able to pay their bills. And have 00:20:20.170 --> 00:20:22.609 money to go to the DPAC every now and then, right? 00:20:22.710 --> 00:20:25.230 Right. Like, enjoy it. See the fruits of your 00:20:25.230 --> 00:20:27.809 labor. See what you work for. And for those of 00:20:27.809 --> 00:20:30.349 you outside of North Carolina, the DPAC is the 00:20:30.349 --> 00:20:32.710 Durham Performing Arts Center. We do have a global 00:20:32.710 --> 00:20:35.869 audience, thank the Lord. So we're talking about 00:20:35.869 --> 00:20:40.670 going to see, you know, concerts and music. Enrichment. 00:20:41.069 --> 00:20:43.430 Enjoy your life. Because, you know, it's not 00:20:43.430 --> 00:20:48.130 all about, it's not all about, I say it because 00:20:48.130 --> 00:20:52.369 I'm just so frustrated. It's not all about working 00:20:52.369 --> 00:20:56.509 and just paying the bills. Health and wellness 00:20:56.509 --> 00:21:02.250 is also about enjoying your life, enjoying your 00:21:02.250 --> 00:21:05.730 world, enjoying your community, having time to 00:21:05.730 --> 00:21:08.289 connect with your loved ones, having time to 00:21:08.289 --> 00:21:12.670 make a new friend. This is how we have social 00:21:12.670 --> 00:21:17.589 cohesion. And when we are cohesive, then we help 00:21:17.589 --> 00:21:20.170 each other. And when we help each other, you 00:21:20.170 --> 00:21:23.089 have a lot less people in trouble. And with a 00:21:23.089 --> 00:21:25.549 lot less people in trouble, you don't have as 00:21:25.549 --> 00:21:28.309 many people in the court system and in the incarcerated 00:21:28.309 --> 00:21:30.890 system. And yes, that means that maybe some of 00:21:30.890 --> 00:21:34.109 those prisons and jails, as Jesse said, might 00:21:34.109 --> 00:21:36.509 go out of business and be no longer necessary. 00:21:37.049 --> 00:21:40.109 But I say to them, just like I say to a lot of 00:21:40.109 --> 00:21:43.619 nonprofits, your job. is to go out of business. 00:21:44.059 --> 00:21:48.440 That should be, in my humble opinion, that should 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:52.680 be the objective of all of these types of institutions 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:59.220 that separate people or are there to fill the 00:21:59.220 --> 00:22:03.420 gap for people. We want everyone to eat. And 00:22:03.420 --> 00:22:05.759 as Jesse said earlier, one way or the other, 00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:08.279 they're going to eat. And so what we want is 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:10.079 for them to be on the right side of the table 00:22:10.079 --> 00:22:12.920 and not the wrong side of the table. But I interrupted. 00:22:13.160 --> 00:22:16.099 I'm sorry. You were talking. Oh, no, no, no. 00:22:16.099 --> 00:22:17.980 That was great. That was great. I'm snapping 00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:21.759 my fingers. That was great. You know, but I agree 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.519 with you. The biggest thing for the people who 00:22:24.519 --> 00:22:27.720 have financial ability to do so, I would strongly 00:22:27.720 --> 00:22:30.279 encourage you to travel outside of the country. 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:33.950 Right. Just like you said, I think we are bred 00:22:33.950 --> 00:22:36.609 into this work mentality. Work, work, work, work, 00:22:36.750 --> 00:22:38.730 work, work, work. And then next thing you know, 00:22:38.750 --> 00:22:41.470 you work at a job for 20 years. You pass away. 00:22:41.509 --> 00:22:43.170 They're going to replace you in a week. Right. 00:22:43.369 --> 00:22:45.849 And keep the work going. But the people who really 00:22:45.849 --> 00:22:48.609 matter, like your family, your friends, like 00:22:48.609 --> 00:22:50.769 those are the people that can't replace you. 00:22:50.829 --> 00:22:54.319 Right. So you need to go out here and see. What 00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:57.359 is life? I can guarantee you guys, you can go 00:22:57.359 --> 00:22:59.859 to Ghana, you can go to Spain, you can go to 00:22:59.859 --> 00:23:02.119 the Caribbean. There are people who ain't living 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:06.220 like this, right? Oh, wow. It's a whole life. 00:23:06.339 --> 00:23:08.839 You can really, really enjoy yourself, have cultural 00:23:08.839 --> 00:23:12.079 events, all this stuff. There's a world of stuff. 00:23:12.240 --> 00:23:14.000 And I think it changes your perspective when 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:17.140 you come back to realize that if you do something 00:23:17.140 --> 00:23:19.019 here, you should do it. Of course, everybody 00:23:19.019 --> 00:23:21.220 has to make their money. I get that. But you 00:23:21.220 --> 00:23:22.960 should do it either because you're passionate 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:25.299 about it. Or you should do it because it's a 00:23:25.299 --> 00:23:27.440 means to an end for something else that you're 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.819 trying to expose your family to. And I just think 00:23:30.819 --> 00:23:34.279 we are misled just because they're going to make 00:23:34.279 --> 00:23:37.420 it seem like, you know, we got the stigma of 00:23:37.420 --> 00:23:40.000 being lazy on us. So we got to work double hard 00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:41.599 and not do that. And then we got to keep up with 00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:43.740 our bills. It's ever increasing and whatever. 00:23:43.799 --> 00:23:45.819 All those things are metrics that are being used 00:23:45.819 --> 00:23:48.539 to control and manipulate your contribution to 00:23:48.539 --> 00:23:53.160 the society. Right. So as we wrap up and this 00:23:53.160 --> 00:23:55.960 conversation is hard to wrap up, like I said, 00:23:55.960 --> 00:23:58.440 Jesse, I might be in your inbox again asking 00:23:58.440 --> 00:24:01.039 you to come back because this has just been so 00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:03.880 wonderful and rich and touched on so many things, 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.319 doorways and pathways that we could go down for 00:24:07.319 --> 00:24:09.359 the enrichment of our audience and our community. 00:24:09.619 --> 00:24:12.079 I appreciate it so much. And one of the other 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:14.640 things I appreciate about you is that you have 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.420 built a coalition and you invest in your coalition. 00:24:19.099 --> 00:24:22.200 And so as you partner with other lawyers, professors, 00:24:22.619 --> 00:24:26.000 students, courts, community organizations, government 00:24:26.000 --> 00:24:30.259 entities, what gives you hope and what organizations 00:24:30.259 --> 00:24:35.400 or advocacy efforts inspire you the most? So 00:24:35.400 --> 00:24:37.980 that's a great question. What gives me hope? 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:43.299 I work with law students and law students who 00:24:43.299 --> 00:24:45.539 come to me who don't always know how litigation 00:24:45.539 --> 00:24:49.230 work or how law works. they get a chance to spend 00:24:49.230 --> 00:24:53.170 a semester with me and learn by doing right so 00:24:53.170 --> 00:24:55.250 we put them in court to advocate for the people 00:24:55.250 --> 00:24:58.450 and oftentimes it exposes them to folks in a 00:24:58.450 --> 00:25:01.210 way of life that they've never seen before and 00:25:01.210 --> 00:25:03.650 they realize that it didn't take that much of 00:25:03.650 --> 00:25:06.089 your personal time to make a huge difference 00:25:06.089 --> 00:25:08.970 in the life of somebody else right and you take 00:25:08.970 --> 00:25:11.109 that skill with you to wherever you go because 00:25:11.109 --> 00:25:12.890 most of my students are going to go to new york 00:25:12.890 --> 00:25:16.579 los angeles london or tokyo Right. So you take 00:25:16.579 --> 00:25:19.119 that skill with you wherever you go. And that 00:25:19.119 --> 00:25:21.359 skill is going to propel you once you get your 00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:24.140 financial resources and all that to do good for 00:25:24.140 --> 00:25:27.519 the community. So I've got the first female attorney 00:25:27.519 --> 00:25:30.660 in Pakistan was one of my students. What did 00:25:30.660 --> 00:25:32.359 she do after graduation? She went to Pakistan 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:34.859 and created a pathway for women who wanted to 00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:37.759 be attorneys. Like that's powerful stuff. And 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:40.299 they come in with a lot of notions about who 00:25:40.299 --> 00:25:43.500 they want to be. like what they want to change. 00:25:43.940 --> 00:25:46.059 And I want to encourage and nurture that. So 00:25:46.059 --> 00:25:48.200 one, I'm always going to be optimistic because 00:25:48.200 --> 00:25:50.380 every year the students get younger and younger 00:25:50.380 --> 00:25:53.359 and technology and they always want to do cool 00:25:53.359 --> 00:25:56.940 stuff as far as organizations. So this I may 00:25:56.940 --> 00:26:01.680 be a bit old school about, but I try to read 00:26:01.680 --> 00:26:06.059 at least once a month about the old battles for. 00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:09.700 Thurgood Marshall, Carol Moseley Braun, like 00:26:09.700 --> 00:26:12.900 all those old school like NAACP civil rights 00:26:12.900 --> 00:26:16.779 movement legal defense fund cases. Because to 00:26:16.779 --> 00:26:19.900 me, the things that I'm dealing with, while they 00:26:19.900 --> 00:26:23.200 may be equivalent in magnitude, they are not 00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:26.480 equivalent in day -to -day struggle. Like what 00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:28.900 folks had to deal with when Thurgood Marshall 00:26:28.900 --> 00:26:30.900 got a flight or got a drive into the city and 00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:32.579 get out before the newspaper article come up. 00:26:34.000 --> 00:26:37.079 So I feel like those are the things that inspire 00:26:37.079 --> 00:26:41.039 me. It's like, OK, I can get through this. Nobody's 00:26:41.039 --> 00:26:43.859 trying to firebomb my car and all that. I can 00:26:43.859 --> 00:26:46.779 get through this. The other thing is I also look 00:26:46.779 --> 00:26:49.740 at kind of the trends. So I'm like, look, at 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:52.279 a time when they were doing this. It was a small 00:26:52.279 --> 00:26:55.039 cadre of Black people who Charles Hamilton Houston 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:58.839 had picked up to do these cases. But now we got 00:26:58.839 --> 00:27:01.099 Black people everywhere. Like, it's folks doing 00:27:01.099 --> 00:27:04.430 all kinds of cool stuff. And they might not necessarily 00:27:04.430 --> 00:27:06.849 be able to give time for litigation efforts at 00:27:06.849 --> 00:27:08.950 the federal level, but they might have money 00:27:08.950 --> 00:27:12.210 to support it. They might have a good word they 00:27:12.210 --> 00:27:14.069 can put in the newspaper or some publication 00:27:14.069 --> 00:27:16.930 to support it. They might call their friend who's 00:27:16.930 --> 00:27:20.230 a congressperson to support it. So we have a 00:27:20.230 --> 00:27:22.769 lot more resources to be able to navigate some 00:27:22.769 --> 00:27:25.299 of the changes that we want to see. As far as 00:27:25.299 --> 00:27:27.859 people who are on the ground, I'm always going 00:27:27.859 --> 00:27:30.519 to give a special shout out to another federal 00:27:30.519 --> 00:27:34.519 rattler of ours, Dawn Blagrove over at Emancipate 00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:38.940 NC. All right. She is awesome. Phenomenal. So 00:27:38.940 --> 00:27:42.140 if you all don't know Dawn Blagrove at Emancipate 00:27:42.140 --> 00:27:46.190 NC. They have a small offshoot, but they are 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:49.369 actually doing everything to combat over policing, 00:27:49.690 --> 00:27:52.910 to protect the community, to file lawsuits, to 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:54.829 appeal things to the highest level when they 00:27:54.829 --> 00:27:57.029 need to, and to make sure that the community's 00:27:57.029 --> 00:27:59.009 voice is heard in all things that are happening 00:27:59.009 --> 00:28:02.829 in Wake County. So Emancipate NC, I really love 00:28:02.829 --> 00:28:05.670 what they do. If, you know, if things were different, 00:28:05.730 --> 00:28:08.049 I probably would have tried to talk at work. 00:28:08.150 --> 00:28:12.029 But, you know, I'm in my passion that I'm enjoying 00:28:12.029 --> 00:28:18.170 what I do. But, yeah, I'm exposed to students 00:28:18.170 --> 00:28:21.069 at all levels. So mentoring. middle and high 00:28:21.069 --> 00:28:23.890 school students. I oftentimes talk to college 00:28:23.890 --> 00:28:26.369 kids. I have a pre -law fellowship program at 00:28:26.369 --> 00:28:28.990 Duke that I direct that has college kids who 00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:30.849 are interested in law school. They come and I 00:28:30.849 --> 00:28:33.450 get to learn the college kids. I got law school 00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:35.609 students. So me, as long as I'm going to be around 00:28:35.609 --> 00:28:37.670 students, I know that there are somebody who 00:28:37.670 --> 00:28:41.490 at least has notions of changing something. And 00:28:41.490 --> 00:28:44.130 all I have to do is empower them with the information 00:28:44.130 --> 00:28:47.569 and education to be able to do it. Lastly, I 00:28:47.569 --> 00:28:50.279 do want to give a shout out to People, the good 00:28:50.279 --> 00:28:52.180 folks at Legal Aid in North Carolina, because 00:28:52.180 --> 00:28:55.039 I learned most of my housing law work from them. 00:28:55.319 --> 00:28:57.720 The great folks at the Durham County Public Defender's 00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:59.559 Office, because I learned how to be criminal 00:28:59.559 --> 00:29:01.640 defense attorney from them. Shout out to Dawn 00:29:01.640 --> 00:29:04.900 Baxter over there. And, you know, really, I want 00:29:04.900 --> 00:29:08.019 to embrace North Carolina Central, Wake Forest 00:29:08.019 --> 00:29:10.859 and Duke for giving me opportunities to be able 00:29:10.859 --> 00:29:12.200 to teach because they didn't have to bring me 00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:13.720 in. Right. They could have told me no when I 00:29:13.720 --> 00:29:16.789 applied. But they saw value in bringing me in 00:29:16.789 --> 00:29:19.630 and exposing me to their students. And last but 00:29:19.630 --> 00:29:22.730 not least, all of those things would pale in 00:29:22.730 --> 00:29:27.390 comparison to Florida A &M University. They came 00:29:27.390 --> 00:29:31.490 out and got me out of North Carolina and was 00:29:31.490 --> 00:29:34.269 like, come on down here. We don't care what you 00:29:34.269 --> 00:29:36.269 look like. We don't care you broke. We're going 00:29:36.269 --> 00:29:39.750 to make you into something. Right. And they honored 00:29:39.750 --> 00:29:42.579 their promise. Yes, indeed. I will always look 00:29:42.579 --> 00:29:45.220 for the A &M for that. And it's the best network. 00:29:45.960 --> 00:29:47.960 Arguably, I think the best HBCU, but that's just 00:29:47.960 --> 00:29:51.460 me. You're not the only one. Okay. Just checking. 00:29:51.740 --> 00:29:54.819 Just checking. But yeah, so definitely happy. 00:29:54.980 --> 00:29:57.380 And I'm glad to see that, you know, we're continuing 00:29:57.380 --> 00:30:00.839 to expand. I read an article earlier about, you 00:30:00.839 --> 00:30:04.180 know, record enrollment at all HBCUs. Yes. That's 00:30:04.180 --> 00:30:06.579 great. And so hopefully, you know, this is just 00:30:06.579 --> 00:30:09.259 a focus of what we're going to be doing in the 00:30:09.259 --> 00:30:11.769 future. And lastly, I want to make sure that 00:30:11.769 --> 00:30:15.369 everybody knows don't go where you are tolerated. 00:30:15.369 --> 00:30:18.710 Go where you are loved, right? Nourished and 00:30:18.710 --> 00:30:22.750 loved. Yes, indeed. I love it. I love it. I love 00:30:22.750 --> 00:30:28.029 it. So this is in conclusion of our awesome series 00:30:28.029 --> 00:30:31.390 with Jesse McCoy. And I just want to say thank 00:30:31.390 --> 00:30:33.130 you. Thank you. Thank you for being here with 00:30:33.130 --> 00:30:38.069 this and for just pouring so much into me. pouring 00:30:38.069 --> 00:30:41.990 so much into our audience. And, and also those 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:44.150 shout outs, those shout outs are awesome. We 00:30:44.150 --> 00:30:47.289 love giving shout outs. And we just want to just, 00:30:47.390 --> 00:30:50.470 I just want to say thank you. Well, I appreciate 00:30:50.470 --> 00:30:53.190 you for having me and you know, I'm a fan. I 00:30:53.190 --> 00:30:55.109 know you're always out here doing good work anyway. 00:30:55.150 --> 00:30:57.609 So anytime you need me, just let me know.