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Welcome back. To questions you didn't ask, with
me, Nyesha Frey, and my guest, Jesse McCoy, as
we continue the series, Justice or Just Us? How
Law, Health, and Equity Collide in America. Let's
pick up where we left off. Let's get back into
some of these disparities that we see. We often
talked about... Durham is our chocolate city,
one of our chocolate cities here in North Carolina.
And we have been talking a lot about the rich
history, I love how you say that, of racial disparities
as it relates to the school to prison pipeline.
But we also have some gender disparities, right?
And I'm thinking about the racial and gender
disparities in sentencing and how that affects
community health. and contributes to long -term
inequities. How do these disparities manifest
in your work? And what changes do you believe
could address these inequities from a criminal
justice standpoint? So I don't know that I've
looked at gender -based sentencing. I think one
of the things, just because I'm a housing law
guy, one of the things that often comes up in
housing law presentations, not just here, but
across the nation, is that at the time where
Black men were disproportionately being imprisoned,
Black women were disproportionately being evicted.
So, you know, it's one of those situations where
I feel like, again, the systems work the way
that the engineer designs them to work. But it
also comes down to kind of how do we assess what
our priority is going to be, be it through statues,
ordinances, whatever. The focus has up to this
point has been, in my opinion. on the destabilization
of Black communities, because we don't have the
ability per se to have and own our own, right?
So like, there are things that can be done, again,
reparations, there are things that can be done
for us to be able to be in that position. But
because the government, for whatever reason,
sees consent to not do that, everybody is trying
to kind of figure it out on their own. Under
the microscope of law enforcement, when it comes
to I'm trying to think that for any of the female
clients that I've had. I don't know that I've
had enough to really have a sample size that
was established. And it's not to say that there
aren't women getting arrested. I've had enough
to have a sample size to be able to compare what
the sentence was like for one versus the other.
I will say that for. The women that I've had
who were arrested largely either dealt with substance
abuse or it dealt with people making financial
decisions about their body that the law says
they weren't able to make as a means of putting
food on the table for their kids. So it's a little
bit different. But again, my sample size is going
to be rather small. But I do think there is a
lot to say about the stresses of increased. living
expectations, living costs, the increases that
people don't seem to get in their wage, and the
fact that rent can continuously go up, wage remains
stagnant, and people are still somehow expected
to be able to make it in a system that's not
designed for them to make it. So I think that
that's probably the best contribution I can do.
I wish I had a bigger sample size to be able
to know otherwise. So, you know, just looking
at the 2023 demographic differences in federal
sentencing, which of course there's federal and
then there's state and, you know, other things
that, you know, we have to consider is that,
you know, especially among Black males that they
receive sentences 13, excuse me, 13 .4 % longer
and Hispanic males receive sentences 11 .2 %
longer than white males. What they found also
was that Hispanic females received sentences
27 .8 % longer than white females, while other
race females, and I'm assuming that's including
Black females, received sentences 10 % shorter.
So, you know, we've been talking a little bit
about... Oh, similar trends. Okay, so Black males
were 23 .4 % less likely and Hispanic males were
26 .6 % less likely to receive a probationary
sentence compared to white males. And similar
trends were observed among females with Black
and Hispanic females less likely to receive a
probation sentence than white females. 11 .2
% less likely. for Black and 29 .7 % less likely
for Hispanic females. So that is a huge disparity
on the federal side. So that's just a touch on
that. And I appreciate you sharing about your
experience and what your small sample size communicates
to you and your experience. And I think it's
fair to say that There are some major inequities
there that we need to address as a community
and as a voting constituent and recognizing that
they say we're still a democracy. And so whether
we're talking about housing or school to prison
pipeline, affirmative action and so on, our vote
matters. Absolutely. So along those lines, you
know, we started talking about the social determinants
of health, which, of course, housing is one of
that. Health care is another. Food security.
All those have long term effects on what we call
population health. And so from a legal perspective,
what are some of the most harmful policies or
practices that restrict formerly incarcerated
individuals from accessing these basic needs?
So, again, I think my area tends to be a little
more limited, so I might not know all the ways,
but I was many years ago on part of the panel
that expanded the expungement statutes. We used
to only have one, right? But now we have way
more. So one of the things that we commonly saw.
was that a criminal record impacts people's ability
for housing. It impacts people's ability to secure
public benefits. It impacts people's ability
to get employment. And those are kind of the
main things that you need in order to have a
life, right? So I was fortunate to work with
Daryl Hunt. When he was alive, for those who
don't know, he's a guy who spent 20 years in
prison for a crime he didn't commit. But when
he was released, he came out and he established
all these programs to help with reentry issues.
And this is kind of before reentry issues were
even popular. Right. And one of the things that
I was able to learn in that relationship and
working with him and helping to expand these
expungement statues is like a lot of people who
are just looking for an opportunity to do right.
Struggle with the things that we would consider
to be necessities. So if we are in a position
where we can help somebody to get a job because
of an expungement. Right. then maybe we need
to expand the expungement statutes to include
certain things. But that's a legislative process.
And I think the legislative piece of it is what
deters people from really seeing it through and
getting the change you need. The interesting
thing about when we did it was it was at a time
where even people in quote unquote conservative
counties. had the same issues, right? And so
when everybody has the issue, if the conservative
county folks are a lot more vocal about what's
happening, the policy change across the board
helps everybody. But it shouldn't have to be
set up so that we've got to politically lean
it in to get a certain way, even though I do
appreciate the benefit now of people having that
option. The other thing we did, there was something
called certificates of relief. People laugh at
them now. But at the time, there were certain
professions that you couldn't enter if you had
a criminal record, like one such being a barber,
right? And so what the certificate of relief
was designed to do, it was a first step in providing
people, particularly folks who were in the last
few months of incarceration who were getting
ready to return, the ability to be trained as
a barber and to have a certificate that would
vouch for them so that that issue on that record.
wouldn't mess it up it was the precursor to what
ultimately we wanted to be a state bonding program
which would be the state having basically an
insurance policy on any person you hired who
was formally convicted and if something went
wrong you would be able to get money the federal
government does this really well with their federal
bonding process. But the state government was
cool with the certificates of relief, not cool
with the bonding. So they split it and we got
certificates that essentially mean nothing. They
have no teeth. So I think that was a place where
North Carolina dropped the ball policy -wise.
I also think, you know, we've seen with housing
authorities now, they're starting to reconsider
kind of what constitutes a crime that disqualifies
somebody for housing. But I think, you know,
the hard part for us is people try to make the
challenges and changes that they want to make
on the granular level that they can. But so much
of this is bureaucratic and it's set up by a
legislative process. So even if somebody wanted,
like, let's say a housing authority, even if
a housing authority wanted to say, you know what,
we're not even looking at criminal records anymore
as long as it's not a violent crime. Well, they
were getting in trouble because the federal government
and the Department of Housing and Urban Development
was like, no, no, no. We provide you with HUD
regulations that dictate how this works. And
if you're going to change a HUD regulation, you
need to talk to Congress. And so to win over
congressional officials, it's not the simple
process. Like, you know, when I was growing up,
people used to say. Write a letter to your congressman.
You do that now. It's probably not getting read.
Right. But what what it does matter is numbers,
statistics, data and an effort to show the impact
that voters could have on a future election.
So if you can show that you have a constituency
that is actively engaged in a policy issue that
wants to change and if they don't change it,
that there's going to be repercussions and ramifications.
Election time. And guess what? Like people respond
to you. People want to come out, at least do
a photo op with you, like whatever the case may
be. So I think there are things that can be done.
But I wonder sometimes with so many things at
the state, local and federal level, there's so
many different groups of people at a time where
folks aren't necessarily politically educated.
I wonder if sometimes if we lose our power. Just
because, you know, most people I deal with, like
when I go back to my community, like when I'm
in the hood, people like I don't want to raise
my kid. I don't want to be like part of the political
movement. I don't care about that. Just make
sure I got money in my pocket. I can take care
of my kid and that's all. Whereas on the other
side, when I go to work with the people I work
with, they're doing fundraisers for political
candidates like they know the power. So I'm just.
I don't know. I hate to ask people who are already
dealing with so much to tell them that they have
to do more, which we seem to do every four years
anyway. Right. But I do feel like there is a
mechanism or lever of power that you miss out
on that allows these bad policies to flourish
or perpetuate just because, you know, they beat
you into submission to a certain extent. And
then I think lastly, accountability is major.
Right. Every four years, people come out, like,
vote for me, vote for me, vote for me. We vote,
however we vote. People get in office, and then
you don't see them again until four years from
now, right? And not just that you don't see them
because they don't come back to the community,
but we don't see them because we don't go to
the meetings. Like, we don't hold people accountable.
That part. Yeah, we don't go to the meetings.
We're not going to see what General Assembly
is doing. We don't pop up, right? They haven't
really been forced to earn your vote yet. Right.
And because of that, it is an added thing. I
know that I'm putting on people's plate, but
it will be helpful for you to do research on
people's voting records. And, you know, how do
they vote? Why do they vote? Like, who are they
listening to? What do they read? Right. In order
to see kind of where who they are, why they're
doing it. And for some people, maybe not everybody.
But for some people, when I go to the barbershop,
they have brilliant ideas about how this place
could be run. Well, maybe you need to put your
name on a ballot. Maybe you need to run for something
because telling me is not helping you. No. I'm
just here to get my fade and I'm going home.
I need you to go out here and present this to
the people. Right. Because, you know, I don't
believe, you know, and maybe this is, I don't
know, for better or for worse, I don't believe
that. a career or occupation makes you more or
less of a person. I think that we have people
who are brilliant. Most of the law I learned
was from the clients I represented who were already
incarcerated and already looked through all the
cases. I'd be like, check out this case. That's
not going to work. I would go back and research
and be like, wow, he was right. That's how you
learn. I don't feel like... I get this a lot
at the barbershop where people are like, when
you go run for office, when you go run, no, I
like my family. I like my life. I'm not running
for office, but I can definitely advocate for
you or, you know, tell you the candidates that
I know are based on my research who's trying
to help you accomplish the things that you want.
But at the same time, like, you know, maybe some
of you can run like let's put you out there.
Let's see, because, you know, people get intimidated
when it comes to things like campaign financing.
You know, how do I do this? How do I do that?
It's difficult. If it was easy, everybody would
do it. Right. But the folks who are in there
are supposed to be representative of you. And,
you know, so even things we talked earlier about.
school -to -prison pipeline. For a while, there
was a whole movement about privatization of prisons,
right? You could put a private prison in a certain
place that would increase access for the purpose
of expanding your representatives in Congress,
but yet not give those prisoners the right to
vote. You would have people getting hired who
could work at the prisons, but you got a labor
force of inmates who are going to do the bulk
of the work. There's so many levels. to this
and so many policies that I don't present it
for people to look at the breadth of the policies
and say, OK, well, I got to fight everything.
Right. That's where coalitions come in. So for
me, I've got people in my Rolodex who. If there's,
you know, a police killing, a wrongful police
killing, I got an attorney I can call to help
you with that. Right. If there's something with
housing, I can be the person to help you with
that. Right. If there's something dealing with,
you know, anything else, like you've got people
to deal with that. And that's the coalition building
you need in order to change the laws, because
everybody can't be experts on everything. No,
sir. You shouldn't. You shouldn't. It'll drive
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let's keep the conversation going. So let me
let me ask you. You're touching on so many things
that I want to talk about. I appreciate this
so much. And I knew you would. So. You know,
we're talking a lot about policies. You talked
about expungement so well, what the limitations
are. You talked about bureaucracy. So one of
my new, and I don't know how new it is, maybe
it's just new for me in terms of, you know, my
soapbox, if you will, is how bureaucracy is an
instrument of institutionalized racism, right?
And everywhere that I haven't, and I think the
reason why that's now my new soapbox is that
I've started to see it. in action. a lot more
in my life recently. I've seen it affect me and
other people that I care about. And so there's
levels to everything, right? And so like you
talked about, there might be a group at a certain
level that wants to do something, they're ready
to move, but then there's another group at another
level that have power and oversight over them
that restrict that, right? And so then you try
to find some sort of compromise so that you don't
wind up in a bigger... cluster, right? So when
we think about, you know, things like expungement,
when we think about things like, you know, these
predatory housing and fact that, you know, certain
people can't get jobs because of their background,
because of their criminal record, they can't
get housing, they can't qualify for Medicaid,
they can't qualify for food stamps, right? Who
do you think? benefits from maintaining these
restrictions? And I think I know the answer.
You probably said the answer. Who suffers? Other
than the obvious, right? The direct person that
is told, no, we know they're suffering because
they can't get to the house and they can't get.
But what's the fallout? Who benefits and then
what's the fallout? So this is actually a very
deep question, right? So any kind of system that's
based on the white supremacist construct is going
to be white heterosexual men. a benefit. I'll
explain why that is. Think about it like this.
Some of the people in government who are the
biggest opponents of things like immigration
are folks who are partnered with folks who have
corporations that benefit entirely on immigrant
labor, right? The reason that they wanted to
be illegal is because they want to have the threat
of deportation if people working for them don't
want to act right, right? It's not that they're
trying to stop and build a wall and all that
stuff they claim they care about, right? It's
the fact that we need somebody to be out here
doing this work, right? And they want to stay.
We're not going to do it. So how do we do it
in a way that people have limited rights? If
you deem folks to have like a faster pathway
to American citizenship. Then now you get access
to the benefits of being an American citizen,
which means you're going to have minimum wage.
You're going to have certain employee employer
relations. Right. It has to be set up and you
can get a complaint to the EEOC if you don't.
All right. They don't want that. They don't want
it. They want the they want the just like with
us. They want the labor, not the issues. They
don't want the accountability. They don't want
the accountability. Right. But it's just fascinating
to see how many people. will be, oh, build a
wall, build a wall, build a wall. It's like you
work for this, you know, this canning company.
And I know that y 'all don't even give me start.
Right. Everything, even when you look at, you
know, one of my lessons that I teach my young
people all the time is people are going to eat
regardless. So what does that mean? That means
that folks who are actually humble enough to
come down to the county social services building.
to apply for food stamps or to apply for benefits,
those are the people who are trying, right? But
if you tell them no, they still going to eat.
It's just a matter of how's the food going to
get there, right? And there are some people in
our community who don't even have the patience
to do the application, right? They're like, oh,
I'm going to eat with grass. I don't care what
you got to say, right? So my thing is, if there's
somebody behind the screen who knows that. So
they're like, okay, if you're going to eat regardless,
and we tell you no, that helps us. Because if
you do something criminal, feed you in our system,
now we can exploit you for your labor. It's all
tricks. These are traps that are set out for
you, right? If you can't find housing, then you
got to live with someone else. But if you live
with someone else who's also renting, now they're
in violation of their lease. So what? Either
you can increase the rent or evict them too,
right? So it's a system. It's a vicious system,
right? I don't want to sound like Malcolm X,
but it's a corrupt, vicious, hypocritical system.
Please sound like Malcolm X on my show. Go right
ahead. It's a system, right? And there's always
somebody with a handout who's going to benefit
from you, whether you do the system or not, right?
What I always tell people is I don't think anybody
should ever feel ashamed. for applying for any
social benefit that we offer. Never feel ashamed.
Reason why? You pay taxes, right? You pay taxes,
and this is the government's way of returning
your taxes to you in some way, shape, or form
that allows you to live a more full life. So
you should do it, right? I also feel like there
are tons of benefits that people who are getting
food stamps don't even know about. Let me tell
you about corporate subsidies and how they work.
You may be thinking, oh, I'm asking for too much
if I'm trying to get $400 a month in food stamps.
But they think about $400 million that they're
trying to get in corporate subsidies. So these
corporations are getting over on your tax money.
They take advantage of their government. And
I'm not knocking the corporations. That's what
it's for, right? So if we are feeling ashamed.
to take like what is a minuscule percentage of
what we pay into the system. And we're made to
feel ashamed or like welfare queen, whatever
the case may be. But they out here basically
financing all sorts of arms development or whatever
with government money that you paid for. What's
the issue? Just like at the barbershop now, a
lot of people say a lot of stuff about Ukraine.
Like we send a lot of money to Ukraine. It's
funny how when we ask for reparations, ain't
no money, right? But when we're in Ukraine, we're
like, yo, can I get another? Or universal health
care, universal child care, anything like that.
Absolutely. And that's the thing. The government
pays for the things that it wants to pay for,
the things that it cares about, right? So it
tells you it's kind of a vicious slap in the
face, particularly in the Black community. about
what they think about us, right? So I think that
you should definitely take advantage of anything
that is out here and available for you to have
and use to better your life through the government.
I also think that's the point of government.
Like the government is supposed to be for us
by us. So if the government is set up for us,
it should be for our benefit, not for the benefit
of a select few. I think that the issue with
just the United States of America generally,
is our ideals are awesome. If we lived up to
our ideals, we'd be the best place in the universe.
Seriously. But the problem is the people who
came up with those ideas were white elite people
who were slave owners. And they didn't really
want everybody to have it. They wanted them to
have it. Right. So we've never been able to rectify
that. It's always been, well, somebody who's
a white heterosexual man has to be in charge
of the system. And not even just white heterosexual
male, white heterosexual affluent male has to
always be in charge of the system. So if you
look at the presidential election, you got Kamala
Harris versus what? A white affluent. Right.
That's the way that it always is going to work.
That's the way that they always want to feed
it to us. And what we are now showing is that.
it doesn't have to be that way, right? Like we
have other people with other ideas. On top of
that, you know, I always make fun of this kind
of white supremacist construct. They developed
this thing called the one drop rule to keep black
people from being accepted into white society.
But we're at a point in American history now
where those numbers is changing and that one
drop rule means you can't create whiteness. You
can only create more. Black. So if you still
follow the one drop rule and you got one drop
of black, you might want to come on over here
with us. You would have. And the problem is that's
changing up your mathematical dynamics for your
elections because they call it the browning of
America. But, you know, people are like, OK,
well, we've got to force feed our way into societies
that we didn't have to previously deal with.
And so that's why you get your Mark Robinsons,
right? Somebody who's Black and wants to say,
I want to own slaves. That's why you get that,
because you need him to influence a group of
people to vote against their interests, right?
Herschel Walker. Herschel Walker, right, right?
To the point that, you know, some of them, like,
especially during COVID, like Herman Cain was
at a party during COVID. And I'm like, yo, and
then it ends up passing away. And you just act
like nothing happened. Absolutely nothing happened.
I don't believe in COVID. It's the cause of death,
COVID. So it's one of those things where I oftentimes
feel bad because I've studied, I've read all
this stuff, and you probably can tell I'm an
avid reader. I read newspapers every day, magazines
every day, all that stuff. It's frustrating because
for me to know what I know and to work in the
space that I work and be fighting for change,
but then know that like, it's like whack -a -mole.
You get one thing bad, there's gonna be 10 more
things that come up. And it's just no way of
battling on. I can't imagine what somebody who
all they're trying to do is work and raise their
kid and don't read any of this stuff. I can't
imagine like the levels of like psychological
warfare that you see it on your TV or whatever.
or your kid watching on YouTube. The levels of
this stuff to deter you and detract you from
questioning and challenging the system is astronomical.
It sometimes can feel like we're not getting
anywhere and then I always get hope when I'm
at a meeting or a convention and I see other
people who look like me who understand and who
are doing it in their respective fields. That's
inspirational. It keeps me going. Yeah, I think
we are all way more brilliant than anybody in
this system has ever given us credit for. I think
that we don't always apply to brilliance because
it's just a lot to deal with. But at the same
time, I feel like it don't take much, right?
It doesn't take much if we can encourage each
other to build our own coalitions or whatever.
And then just to hark back to. kind of this immigration
piece, right? So the immigration piece is a calculated
risk. And what I mean by that is there are images
of kind of what Black people are that are projected
to folks who come here from other places. Child,
now you about to talk about something. Go ahead.
Go ahead. I'm going to give you some room. So
the whole point is to perpetuate archaic stereotypes
about who we are, how violent we are, how dangerous
we are, so that there will be acceptance. How
lazy we are. How lazy we are at the building
of the country. Imagine that. Oh, yeah. So they
put this out there so that they can win acceptance
and establish kind of this white supremacist
mantle that people can somehow immigrate and
bleed into regardless of how they look. With
the full understanding that they're never going
to, on the other side, they're never going to
integrate fully into that society, right? Yeah,
not the rich white elite. You can strive for
it. Right, but it's the otherism. It's, well,
at least you'll be better than Jaquan. You're
better than Jaquan. And the problem is that people
don't understand that Jaquan been getting money.
Jaquan do what he's supposed to do. He got his
degrees. He do whatever it is. You see that with
sisters all the time. The fact that all of these
obstacles were made to keep Black women from
doing things, but yet, who's the most educated
group of people in America? The thing about Black
people that they haven't figured out yet, we
gonna figure it out. We gonna find a way. You
can't tell me I can't do something. I just gotta
be creative about it. I'll figure it out. So,
it's this. It's like, how do you create... a
party that's based on a mantle of a white supremacist
construct when you don't have the the numbers
to sustain the white supremacy exclusively right
when you created the race label in the first
place thank you for joining us on questions you
didn't ask With me, Naisha Frey, and my guest,
Jesse McCoy. Tune in next week as we continue
our series, Justice or Just Us? How Law, Health,
and Equity Collide in America.