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Welcome back. To questions you didn't ask with
me, Nyesha Frey, and my guest, Jesse McCoy, as
we continue the series, Justice or Just Us? How
Law, Health, and Equity Collide in America. Let's
pick up where we left off. We've talked about
the things that we want. I love what you said.
Don't feed yourself to the wolf or wolves, plural.
But the other piece is, what are the things that
you think are protective factors? What are the
things that kind of help people to not have to
make those hard decisions that that kind of keep
them away from the legal system and getting a
criminal record? So it runs the game. And I think
there are some people who, you know, just because
of their upbringing or whatever, they have a
standard of who they want to be. And they know
that that standard is not possible if there's,
you know, involved in the criminal justice system.
All right. I also think there's an aspirational
element to it of we should have reparations.
People don't want to talk about it, but reparations
need to happen. You know, people can have their
own economic power to do the things that they
want to do and not have to rely on somebody else's
system or employment or, you know, policies or
whatever. But, you know, because I don't have
much hope that that's going to happen. I mean,
don't ask for it, but I don't have much hope
that, you know, our current makeup of government
is going to do that. I think the other thing,
though, is we are in a beautiful time, even though
it doesn't always seem like it when you turn
the TV on. We're in a beautiful time because
now we have so many people who have already broken
glass ceilings to this point, right? And there
are people who, for the most part, are happy
to help reach back and pull somebody else up.
You don't have to like before when I was like,
oh, I don't know what to do. Who's an attorney?
Like, what do you do now? I go back. So at least
there's me. And I know a whole bunch of attorneys
who'd be willing to help. You've got science
programs. You've got medical programs like people
want you there. What also is kind of the dirty
little secret that folks don't talk about is
even the institutions that many of us would write
off as being PWI, whatever. They need you like
they need you. They need you in the building
because we provide a diverse perspective that
their students may not ever have heard before
and that their systems may not have ever known
to challenge before. So I'm going to stop you
right there because, you know, there's attack
on DEI. So you're at a private school, so it
probably doesn't affect you the same way as my
colleagues. I have colleagues that are leaving
academic institutions, state -funded academic
institutions, to go to private institutions so
that they can do their work. But that's going
to be an additional episode probably down the
line where we talk a little bit about the erasure
of DEI. But keep going and feel free to jump
in on that piece, too, in regard to the PWIs
needing our presence and our experience. They
need us. Just like American history, they need
us. They don't want us, but they need us. So
one of the things about DEI erasure, let me take
this back. There is a very well -funded guy named
Ed Bloom who believes that Black people are in
places that we don't deserve to be at. The problem
is that he can't outright come out and say, Black
people are at places that we don't need to be.
So what he does is he props up other racial groups,
ethnic groups, whatever, to make it seem like
we're taking something from them. Right. And
he goes on this tangent and it helps that, you
know, the court is compromised and, you know,
Trumpism is a real thing and all that stuff.
So he picked his time to bring a series of different
lawsuits that challenged. the affirmative action
policies that were put in place because black
people were disproportionately not allowed to
be admitted into those universities in the numbers
that we should. Right. And it's a very interesting
case study in and of itself, because for the
most recent case that basically we deemed to
overturn affirmative action, he propped up the
Asian -American community. But if you poll and
talk to Asian -American students at Harvard and
USC, they didn't even want this, right? This
is something that he was trying to prop up to
say, oh, well, these Black kids got their seats.
They don't deserve to be there. Now, keep in
mind, if you look at the demographics of a Harvard,
Black people are not making up large percentages
at Harvard. No, sir. We aren't. We're there,
but it's not a large percent. Exactly. It's a
multitude of reasons as to why we aren't there.
But we certainly aren't taking somebody's seat.
Right. Like that's not us. Now, some of our white
colleagues, you know, if you've ever heard of
things like legacy admissions, people who just
get in because their dad built a building or
whatever. I mean, that plays a role in it. But
nobody wants to talk about that. Right. And at
least Bloom doesn't want to talk about it. So
anyways, he does this lawsuit. The lawsuit gets
tossed out at every level for lack of standing,
which is true because Ed Bloom, you are not Asian
-American, right? But for some reason, when it
gets to the Supreme Court of the United States,
not only is he deemed to have standing in the
compromise court that we know it is, he is deemed
to be correct. And as a result, affirmative action
changes. And what does that mean? Well, we had
a history of cases all throughout the 90s about.
admissions policies and guidelines. There's this
belief system in the general populace that race
indicates additional points towards application
and admissions considerations. And for some schools,
maybe it did. So some schools, they may say,
all right, well, we know that there's a history
of culturally biased aptitude tests. We need
to make up for that. We know there's a history
of disproportionality as far as white and Black
student admittees. We need to combat that. So
these schools went out and did very progressive
programs to try to diversify their student base.
And for the most part, a lot of those programs
did achieve some of the diversity efforts. Now,
when I say diversity, depending on the group
that I'm in, if diversity is black people, they'd
be like, oh, so they went from 13 percent to
17 percent. Right. OK. That's diversity. If it's
a white people, it's like, wow, we went from,
you know, 13 to 17. Like, it depends, right?
We're not talking about 50 -50 diversity. We're
not talking about that. But one of the things
that I've always kind of appreciated in these
arguments is that there's obviously a contribution
that we have to these campuses. And I'll give
you a case in point, right? Some people like
the University of Alabama, right? University
of Alabama has a rich history of discrimination
and all that. But you know what else University
of Alabama got? A football team that's 80 % Black
people. So, obviously, we're here for something,
right? You want us there for something, right?
And then on top of that, they went years and
years before NIL and all that without having
to pay people. So, you're just getting the spoils
of these people coming and then you send them
back home broken or maybe wanting to go to the
NFL. And the school keeps all that money and
uses it for all the programs that they want to
expand to their largely white demographic. All
right. So there is a need for us. Now, I'll say
we've actually had a number of academic achievements
from these institutions as well. But one of the
things about having black students is black students
tend to be vocal and they're going to demand
to see black professors. Right. Which means you
can't just diversify the student body. You have
to diversify the faculty. And if you diversify
the faculty, faculty is going to ask for black
leadership. So you got to diversify the administration.
And at a certain point, the people who don't
want the diversity that they claim or whatever,
secretly we're meeting to say, how do we stop
it? So now what we're seeing is the quiet part
being said out loud. They're like, all right.
We don't want diversity. We're going to take
it off the books. As a matter of fact, while
you're at it, erase Black history. We don't need
that. We need you to forget all this bad stuff
we did and just accept it. And further, going
back to Ed Bloom, when he finished dismantling
affirmative action, the next step he did was
to try to dismantle, which essentially was successful,
dismantle the venture fund. So there were. Oh,
yeah. As venture capitalists, they came together
because they weren't accepted in a traditional
venture capitalist firms. So they did their own
thing, which is the American thing to do. If
you don't want me, I'll be competition. Right.
So they did their own thing. He went and said,
well, now they're racially discriminating. How
dare they be successful in black. Right. Bottom
line. Right. So. The thing about it is I hope
that anybody who is listening to this understands
and appreciates the value that you have. And
the fact that, you know, I don't want to like,
I don't like using words like warfare and stuff
like that because I don't want it to be, you
know, inflammatory. Violent or, yeah. Yeah, but
there are people who philosophically feel like
they want your talents, but they don't want you.
And as a people in a community, our job is to
say, you can't get one without the other. This
isn't 1775 anymore, right? We're going to be
here. We're going to be vocal. We're going to
have positions to play in this system. And you're
going to have to deal with us. And these old
arcade notions about who we are, what we can
do, have to die out. And if you're not ready
to deal with that, okay. I now want to go back
and revert to. people understanding that HBCUs
were created by our forefathers because they
knew this was happening already. They were created
because we weren't accepted on those campuses.
So you don't have to necessarily force yourself
into a door where people don't want you. We got
schools that teach you just as well, if not better.
If not better. That's going to love you, right?
Who's going to respect you and appreciate you
and elevate you to where you want to be, right?
Right, right. So always like... All credit is
due to HBCUs who have been doing this good work
and good labor. And the secret that I found out,
particularly when I got, you know, my first day
at Florida A &M, the secret I found out is we
don't talk enough about diversity amongst Black
people, right? There's a lot of Black diversity.
Florida A &M was like a union of nations of Black
people. We had Haitian people, Jamaican people.
People from Barbados, people from Africa. We
had people from all over. And then even amongst
Black Americans, somebody who grew up in Chicago
is different from somebody who grew up in Florida,
right? Yeah, it's totally different. It's a lot
of diversity. And we have our own kind of microcosm
of issues and relationships and all those things
within those lenses as well that we don't often
address because we're so busy. battling kind
of the white mantle when we go out into this
American society. So I really thought it was
a beautiful thing that for four years, you know,
my roommate was Filipino. It was a Black dude
from the Philippines. Wow. It's just to see the
diversity and to see that no matter where people
were from, they were brilliant. Right. Brilliant
folks. And, you know, it helps that you're brilliant
and you got swag and all this stuff like you
can be cool with your brilliance. You don't have
to hide your brilliance. Right. So I think those
are the things that I really value when it comes
to HBCU education. Right. And I think that we're
going to see more and more, particularly with
this upcoming. presidential election, we're going
to see what the value of that HBCU education
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going. All right, so we've been talking a lot
about education, entrepreneurship. economic justice
as protective factors to falling prey to the
criminal justice system and the carceral system.
So it sounds like I know the answer to this question,
but I'm going to go ahead and go there anyway
so we can flesh it out some more for our audience.
Do you believe that there's a school to prison
pipeline? And if so, how does it show up in your
work? or affect the communities you serve? Yes.
Absolutely. Right. Right. What I'll say is I
think that there have been strides made to improve
resistance to that. So for anybody who went to,
particularly if you went to high school. in the
inner city area in the 90s or early 2000s, it
was like we had little small disciplinary issues
that were getting referred to the school resource
office for prosecution. And you don't need to
do all that. There may still be a need when it
comes to, you know, threats of imminent violence
on school campuses or stuff like that. But, you
know, little fights, things like that, like some
stuff needs to be conflict resolution at the
school. But for those who don't know, so school
to prison pipeline was the system that was essentially
what we deem to be when these schools report
you so that you now have a criminal record for
the purpose of, I guess, marking that they did
something so they wouldn't be held accountable
if something happened. And for the purpose of
getting what they call bad actors into the judicial
system. But the problem is the judicial system
isn't really equipped to deal with that. Right.
So a lot of times when we will go to court and
represent people who are, you know, 16, 15, 16,
17. And the judge was like, well, this is a baby.
This is a baby. I don't want to throw him in
jail. But at the same time, I mean, yeah, he
did what you accused them of. So we had to get
creative about things like diversion programs.
And what does that look like? Can I set community
service up for a 15 year old who doesn't have
transportation to get to the place that the community
service is going to be available at? Right. So.
What we have since done is it sounds like we've
expanded a lot more of the diversion programs.
However, schools are still, you know, they're
not a monolith. So there are some principals
who are believing if you do this, you get arrested.
There are other places that conflict resolution.
Ultimately, I guess the second part of that is
how does that impact the greater community? But
one, a lot of people appreciate this, particularly
for my community. But when you have a criminal
record, that's going to impact what jobs you
get, if you get to school, if you can go to the
military, like all that stuff. And so that's
going to damage your economic empowerment. On
top of that, a lot of people aren't always familiar
with. the steps you have to go through for getting
things expunged, or whether or not the charge
even qualifies for expungement, because it's
very limited, right? So, you know, if you can't
qualify for an expungement and it has to sit
on your record, then there's kind of this albatross
around your neck where there's always going to
be somebody who, if you do anything wrong, that's
the first thing they're going to pick up. Right.
And they're trying to use that to characterize
what kind of person you are. Who are you and
do you deserve to be at this job or in this school
or whatever the case may be? Right. So there's
that. The other thing, once you get older, is
that if you ever have to go on any kind of public
assistance or housing, well, that could be a
barrier to you being able to access housing.
Right. So if you can't access housing, that means
that you have housing instability. If you have
housing instability, that means that you either
got to rely on a relative to get something done
with something. A lot of you got relatives that's
tied up and stuff, too. Or you have to, you know,
be on your own and figure it out or go to an
unscrupulous landlord who's predatory. So we
want to maximize the options that people from
our community have. And the best way to do that.
is to avoid charges altogether. I know, especially
being from the community I'm from, that it's
easier said than done. I think people like to
try you all the time. They want to try you and
put you in situations that you got to make split
second decisions. But one of the things that
I've been very active about telling mentees and
young people I talk to is understanding the difference
between momentary pride versus like true success.
Right. you could win in the moment but then go
to jail or get a record or whatever yeah and
now you're losing for the lifetime as opposed
to losing for the moment like all right you know
i'm weak whatever you win and then move on and
you have a great life right and again i know
i'm saying this from a period of privilege now
i would have been right if you checked in with
me in 97 yeah it might have been a totally different
answer right right right but but i'm matured
right and i'm hoping that i could bring that
maturity factor and perspective in to folks who
are 16, 17 now, because I have also, just like
I've seen very bad things in the world, I've
also been blessed to see very good things. And
it feels so good to be able to sleep at night
without keeping one eye open and, you know, worried
about somebody for two years ago who just got
out, coming, looking for you. Like, I don't have
no worries, man. Like, I do the best I can. I
come home, try to raise my kid for a few minutes
and, you know, enjoy life. And I'm trying to
get people to the point where they are. traveling.
When you go to other countries and you see that
the way we do it here may or may not be the right
way to do it. There are other ways to do it.
There are countries that value the sense of community
and values and pride and countries that don't
value work. You know what I'm saying? If they
say we're going to the beach at 4 o 'clock, they're
going to the beach at 4 o 'clock. They're going
to enjoy themselves. I got to get this overtime
in. I got to get this extra money. Because you
have to. I mean, and I think that that's really
interesting, you know, how, you know, being able
to give back at this phase and say, this is how
I got here. And these are the types of decisions
that I had to make or looking back, I realized
that the value in these decisions are really,
you know, what set me up for success and allowed
me to keep moving in this direction. And also
just so much weight. on a young person in a moment
can change your life for better or worse, right?
Because for you, the decision that you made to
stop and talk to that woman with her daughter
who was lost on campus changed your life, right?
For the better. So one thing that I'm going to
pick your brain about before I go on to my next
question is I have been seeing a lot of conversation.
And if you don't feel comfortable answering this
question, we can move on. But I think you're
equipped. I think you know where I'm going. You'll
be fine. What I want to ask about is how people,
young people, young people with disabilities
are more vulnerable. to the school to prison
pipeline. Those who have been following my show
will recognize that I talk about Black disability
communities a lot on my show. One, because I
have a child that has a disability and I grew
up in a community that embraced disability justice.
So it primed me for being able to be an advocate.
Once my daughter came along into the world. And
so as I'm gathering more and more information
about health equity, social justice, economic
justice, things of that sort. And I've had a
career at the intersection of clinical research
and public health and criminal justice. I've
been really curious to hear more about and talk
more about how people with disabilities, Black
people, young people are more vulnerable. to
getting caught up in that school to prison pipeline.
Can you share a little bit about that? Absolutely.
So first and foremost, I think the initial label
of being Black, regardless of disability status,
already causes people to be vigilant and be looking
for you to mess up, right? So that's the first
thing. But the second part of that is with people
who have disabilities, they don't necessarily
know. or aren't trained to know or don't really
try to learn. Or don't have the capacity. Don't
have the capacity to know kind of what's unique
and nuanced for that particular individual. And
so what happens is there's this rush to judgment,
like rush to say, oh, well, whatever they do,
they're going to be bad. They're bad kids, whatever
the case may be. And it's all to feed into this
narrative that people are somehow incapable.
of, you know, doing the right thing or learning
or whatever the case may be. And I think, you
know, it's something that is wrong, but like
it's going to be even more exacerbated and disproportionate
in Black communities because they're already
looking. Like I said, everybody, regardless of
where you are, what race you are, what ethnicity
you are, like crime is the same in all levels,
right? When crime happens, right? But it's about
where you're looking. So if you're already looking
at black people, you're like, I know they're
going to mess up. And then you don't know that
the person has a disability or you don't care
that the person has a disability. That's only
going to make it worse. What I get really nervous
about is things like involvement with law enforcement.
Right. Law enforcement. I'm going to try to say
something nice about them before I say something
bad. So the nice part is that law enforcement
gets tasked with doing a lot of jobs that. probably
aren't law enforcement right so we test them
with being first responders we test them with
analyzing the situation when they get there we
test them with keeping the community safe we
test them to get rid of the bad person who's
doing something and we put a lot on them right
for not a lot of pay and for not a lot of training
so you know we put a lot on them but at the same
time what i also believe is law enforcement also
comes into their job with certain expectations
of different communities. If they're not exposed
to the community and they don't build relationships
with people in the community, they don't know
what's going on. They just want to be the big
man with the gun. In certain communities, you're
not the only one with a gun. It's going to be
real hard for you to pull that off where everybody
got them. There's that, but then there's also
you have to be involved in the community. to
be able to recognize or understand when there
is somebody who is dealing with a disability
sometimes. Because the community will tell you,
like, oh, no, that's so -and -so. Like, we're
good. But if you're not trying to hear that,
and you're just rushing in, guns blazing, that's
when we get the major news stories that come
out. The police officers will say, oh, I feared
for my life, this, that. And the concern for
us is always, like, why is it that you always
in fear when that person is Black? Why is that
fear not taking over to the other side of town
where white people, right? Not that we want white
people to, you know, go through bad things. It's
more like it can't always be us, right? You only
scare when you're over here. And so I think all
of those things play into a factor. And I also
think, you know, we have a rich history just
nationally of otherism, right? We want to, in
America, like say that certain people have these
limitations, be it based on race, ethnicity,
be it on ability, be it on, you know, sexual
preference, whatever the case may be. They have
these limitations and it all feeds into kind
of a white supremacist construct. Right. The
only person who's right is a heterosexual white
male. Right. And so all this stuff feeds in and
what happens and you see this really like. political
season especially, all they do is put out ads
that divide people just to make folks be like,
oh, well, it's the immigrants that did it, or
it's this that did it, so that you never focus
on the true culprit that's taking your money
and not giving you the service that you're paying
for. I think there are a lot of things we need
to do to fix that system, but for people who
are specifically dealing with being Black and
having a disability, I really think it's important
upon us as all Black people to foster a community
of protection and understanding. We have to be
our brother's keeper, in a sense, because we
may know what people are struggling with, or
we may at least be able to allude. If you see
people, you interact with them on a daily basis.
You know somebody who may be in that situation.
And you're able to like voice or vocalize things
for them in a way that they may not be able to
do for themselves. Right. But I know also that's
going to be a hard ask for people when the police
come and they just looking for guilt. Right.
It's going to be very few people going to be
willing to take that step. You have to be brave
and courageous to do that. And I think I've always
viewed the community as being kind of an extension
of myself. So if I see somebody in trouble, it
will be a lot easier for me to. take that stance
only because i would feel like okay well but
for the grace of god that would be me right but
it can't just be one person it has to be the
entire community being receptive right and i'm
not going to say that i'm an expert on in all
the disabilities but i also know that there are
some people who you are visibly understanding
based on right uh, emotionally given cues or,
you know, some people, you know, they have a
sense of touch, like touch is the thing you,
you can pick up and you know, when somebody is
not trying to be, you know, disrespectful or
mean, whatever the case may be or violent. And
I think it's important for us to all kind of
galvanize and take up for each other. Right.
Right. So you just. I appreciate you for going
there with me and just kind of in our audience
and shedding light on, you know, the vulnerabilities
in our community. And then this special, you
know, subpopulation that I hold near and dear
to my heart. And I think a lot of us have a lot
of compassion for and want to, you know, stand
up and be protective of those people as much
as is, you know, respectful. You know what I
mean? You know, you've talked about so many aspects
of our society, our community, and yet you're
a lawyer, right? So, you know, I see so much
of the things that I've been concerned about
as a person with a psychology background, as
a person with a public health background. Like,
you know, when I came to Duke, I was really focused
on population health. And so it just in your
own mind. Do you consider how your work as a
lawyer affects public health and population health?
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Tell us why and how. So
the main thrust of the work that I do now involves
evictions, right? And evictions are a social
determinant of health. You don't have stabilized
housing. Everything else in your life is at jeopardy,
including access to health care and all those
things. And it's an additional stress is going
to create more physiological issues anyway. So
one of the things that I always tell people is
with evictions, it's a it's a symptom of like
kind of how we view housing in America. Housing
in America is viewed as a commodity, not as a
right. And so what that means is the people who
have the money and resources to be able to buy
housing or rent housing are going to be housed.
And the people who don't, tough love. Right.
And so what happens is all too often developers
who enter a housing market want to develop, but
they're developing for a profit motive. So they're
going to develop. I mean, we can find in the
area I'm in now, there are tons of houses that
are being sold with one point five to two million
dollars. Like we don't have that. Not at all.
For the people who need something that is quote
unquote affordable, there are not a lot of options.
And that means that you're relegated to renting,
which means that you're driving more demand into
a rental market. So landlords see an opportunity
for their prices to go up. Right. And so. All
this stuff does is at a certain point, it makes
the regular person who gets up, goes to work
every day, may not necessarily have a high salary
to be able to offset all these costs. It pushes
them out. Right. You can't stay here. Good luck
in Creedmoor. Good luck in Maryland. Whatever
the case may be. But then if you have struggles
there, you're probably also going to have a struggle
in an area like North Carolina with transportation
because you live in Creedmoor, but the job is
in Durham. Nobody coming to get you. You got
to drive yourself there. We don't have public
transit. It's going to get you everywhere. Right.
So I think there are a lot of things. And I always
refer back to Durham just because Durham is an
interesting case study. A lot of people don't
know this, but W .E .B. Dubois came to Durham
at the turn of the century. Right. And he was
amazed. by Durham. It was, to him, it was like
Black heaven, right? It was a place with Black
people on hotels, restaurants, banks, medical
centers, like all this stuff. And while it was
still segregated from white society, we didn't
have the issues of violence that all of the other
cities in the South that are known had, right?
We found a way to coexist and everybody have
what they need. until the 1970s and 80s, right?
When they said we're going to build a highway
through all the Black communities and they're
going to be gone and decimated or whatever. So
my thought process has always been that is kind
of the foundation of what Durham can be, right?
We know we have people here who are business
folks, who are innovative, whoever, you know,
can do all kinds of things. But the issue is
that when we got decimated, and plunged into
the poverty of the 70s 80s 90s then what happened
was there weren't resources from the city that
would come in to be able to provide the things
that people needed so we're losing housing people
weren't getting housing we also have a rich history
of uh it was an urban renewal program that attempted
to say give me your house we'll build it up we'll
fix it and then we'll give it back to you but
then they never gave people The house is back
and they drove folks into relying on public housing
system. So we've got that. But with all of this
history of what has happened in that time frame,
what we have not done is really reached back
to stabilize community first. And what happened
was we had a mayor who I actually like who said,
you know what, the first thing we need to do
is we need to get an economic infrastructure.
So what he said was anybody who comes into the
area to develop or to bring their business here
or whatever, we'll let y 'all come in tax -free,
right? So all these places ended up coming into
Durham. But what he, I guess, had hoped was that
they were going to train and hire Durham people
to get those jobs, and they didn't. They just
brought the people from New York, Seattle, wherever,
where they already paid way more in rent. Brought
them in here and was like, look, now you got
rent for $800 a month, but two bedroom, right?
So all these people came in. On top of that,
you've got two universities that are growing
and expanding and bringing students from all
over the nation. And students got student loans
and all that stuff so they can use that money
to finance their lifestyle while they're in school.
All these things happen and all these people
come in injecting more and more money, but the
city's not getting a taste of that money. So
the people from the city who are like, hey, when
can we get this? And the city's like, well, we
got it right now. Just hold on. So I think that's
the frustration. And like, especially with me,
when I go to the barbershop, we have these conversations
all the time. If you were somebody who's like
mom and dad worked at Duke, you look. But if
you're somebody whose family didn't work at Duke,
you hate Duke because everything got expensive.
On top of that, I feel like there's a positive
and negative correlation to Duke and Durham.
So the negative is if Duke really wanted to,
they could just come out here and open the pocketbook
and be like, all right, it's now the city of
Duke. You know what I'm saying? That's pretty
much what they could do. They have been selective
in some situations about scaling back from doing
that, right? But at the same time, the negatives
are that you still do, right? Like, it doesn't
matter. Like, you're here. You're bringing people
with way more money here. You're driving up costs.
You're bringing students. You're driving up costs.
And more so, people who are associated with the
Duke atmosphere aren't really receptive to the
community that surrounds them. Duke, right? Because
Durham has a rich history independent of Duke,
right? So I think that causes a lot of friction
that Duke and members of the community, like
stakeholders in the community, have been trying
to iron out for years. Every now and then, it
seems like once we get four steps forward, there's
five steps back when things like the Light Rail
Project, stuff like that gets beat up by Duke.
But I think We've also seen Duke expand and be
able to create jobs for people in the community,
be able to demand certain housing, be able to
bring in certain businesses and startups and
all that stuff that hire from people in the community.
So the issue now is we're just trying to catch
up. We're trying to get to a point where folks
will want to invest in the community, but invest
more so just in building a building and saying,
OK, invest in training. the people who are already
here to be able to take these jobs that are higher
paying and to stabilize our society so that everybody
can feel included. And I have varying degrees
of success on that, right? I don't know that
we'll necessarily get there in a short amount
of time. And I think there's also some state
interplay there because whenever Durham starts
being really, really progressive and moving forward,
the state always slaps our hand to make sure
we are reminded that we are not in charge. You
know, I think that we we've made strides to get
back to where we are now, but we've got a long
way to go to be where we need to be. Right. And,
you know, considering both of us worked at Duke
and we're from the triangle, you know, I will
jump in there and just say, you know, I've had
some opinions, you know, about. not just Duke,
but other large stakeholders in the triangle,
specifically Durham County, that are not what
I consider calling their fair share either. And
Duke is just a very convenient target for people.
And I'm not saying that they don't have a responsibility.
I'm just saying, let's not be fooled. into thinking
that they're the only ones. And let's also not
let our elected officials and city and county
government off the hook for enforcing certain
economic policies that would make it less of
a choice and more of a requirement and utilizing
the different levers of investment back into
the community that only the city and county can
require. Thank you for joining us on Questions
You Didn't Ask with me, Nyesha Frey, and my guest,
Jesse McCoy. Tune in next week as we continue
our series, Justice or Just Us? How Law, Health,
and Equity Collide in America.