WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Hey y 'all, welcome to Questions You Didn't Ask. 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.179 Did you know that this very spot could be showcasing 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.320 your business or event? Whether it's an audio 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.460 ad on our podcast, or a visual ad on our new 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:18.100 YouTube station, or even both, we've got the 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.620 space for you. Nyesha Frey Consulting is reaching 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.420 a growing audience of over a thousand leaders 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.839 who are passionate about health equity, social 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:32.070 justice, and civil rights activism. These are 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.329 professionals just like you working across higher 00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:40.409 education, research, healthcare, nonprofit, government, 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:44.030 and even public health sectors. If you're ready 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.630 to get your message in front of a dedicated and 00:00:46.630 --> 00:00:52.469 engaged audience, send me an email at naishafrayconsultingllc 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:57.149 at gmail .com. Let's talk about how we can help 00:00:57.149 --> 00:00:59.710 you connect with the people who need to hear 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:02.829 about your services and products that advance 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:06.969 health equity and wellness. Don't miss out. Get 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.269 in the mix and let's make an impact together. 00:01:23.849 --> 00:01:26.670 Welcome back. To questions you didn't ask with 00:01:26.670 --> 00:01:29.969 me, Nyesha Frey, and my guest, Jesse McCoy, as 00:01:29.969 --> 00:01:34.489 we continue the series, Justice or Just Us? How 00:01:34.489 --> 00:01:38.549 Law, Health, and Equity Collide in America. Let's 00:01:38.549 --> 00:01:40.549 pick up where we left off. We've talked about 00:01:40.549 --> 00:01:43.230 the things that we want. I love what you said. 00:01:43.310 --> 00:01:48.310 Don't feed yourself to the wolf or wolves, plural. 00:01:49.090 --> 00:01:52.290 But the other piece is, what are the things that 00:01:52.290 --> 00:01:55.150 you think are protective factors? What are the 00:01:55.150 --> 00:01:58.329 things that kind of help people to not have to 00:01:58.329 --> 00:02:01.769 make those hard decisions that that kind of keep 00:02:01.769 --> 00:02:04.049 them away from the legal system and getting a 00:02:04.049 --> 00:02:07.250 criminal record? So it runs the game. And I think 00:02:07.250 --> 00:02:09.870 there are some people who, you know, just because 00:02:09.870 --> 00:02:12.490 of their upbringing or whatever, they have a 00:02:12.490 --> 00:02:14.849 standard of who they want to be. And they know 00:02:14.849 --> 00:02:17.650 that that standard is not possible if there's, 00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:19.969 you know, involved in the criminal justice system. 00:02:20.050 --> 00:02:23.409 All right. I also think there's an aspirational 00:02:23.409 --> 00:02:26.870 element to it of we should have reparations. 00:02:26.930 --> 00:02:29.389 People don't want to talk about it, but reparations 00:02:29.389 --> 00:02:31.889 need to happen. You know, people can have their 00:02:31.889 --> 00:02:34.030 own economic power to do the things that they 00:02:34.030 --> 00:02:36.689 want to do and not have to rely on somebody else's 00:02:36.689 --> 00:02:40.090 system or employment or, you know, policies or 00:02:40.090 --> 00:02:42.550 whatever. But, you know, because I don't have 00:02:42.550 --> 00:02:44.729 much hope that that's going to happen. I mean, 00:02:44.770 --> 00:02:47.110 don't ask for it, but I don't have much hope 00:02:47.110 --> 00:02:49.569 that, you know, our current makeup of government 00:02:49.569 --> 00:02:51.729 is going to do that. I think the other thing, 00:02:51.729 --> 00:02:55.009 though, is we are in a beautiful time, even though 00:02:55.009 --> 00:02:56.610 it doesn't always seem like it when you turn 00:02:56.610 --> 00:02:59.189 the TV on. We're in a beautiful time because 00:02:59.189 --> 00:03:03.590 now we have so many people who have already broken 00:03:03.590 --> 00:03:07.229 glass ceilings to this point, right? And there 00:03:07.229 --> 00:03:10.050 are people who, for the most part, are happy 00:03:10.050 --> 00:03:12.909 to help reach back and pull somebody else up. 00:03:14.270 --> 00:03:16.069 You don't have to like before when I was like, 00:03:16.110 --> 00:03:18.069 oh, I don't know what to do. Who's an attorney? 00:03:18.250 --> 00:03:21.129 Like, what do you do now? I go back. So at least 00:03:21.129 --> 00:03:22.930 there's me. And I know a whole bunch of attorneys 00:03:22.930 --> 00:03:25.270 who'd be willing to help. You've got science 00:03:25.270 --> 00:03:28.569 programs. You've got medical programs like people 00:03:28.569 --> 00:03:32.409 want you there. What also is kind of the dirty 00:03:32.409 --> 00:03:34.710 little secret that folks don't talk about is 00:03:34.710 --> 00:03:38.270 even the institutions that many of us would write 00:03:38.270 --> 00:03:42.530 off as being PWI, whatever. They need you like 00:03:42.530 --> 00:03:45.300 they need you. They need you in the building 00:03:45.300 --> 00:03:49.520 because we provide a diverse perspective that 00:03:49.520 --> 00:03:52.060 their students may not ever have heard before 00:03:52.060 --> 00:03:54.759 and that their systems may not have ever known 00:03:54.759 --> 00:03:57.520 to challenge before. So I'm going to stop you 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:58.840 right there because, you know, there's attack 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:02.780 on DEI. So you're at a private school, so it 00:04:02.780 --> 00:04:05.099 probably doesn't affect you the same way as my 00:04:05.099 --> 00:04:08.020 colleagues. I have colleagues that are leaving 00:04:08.020 --> 00:04:11.319 academic institutions, state -funded academic 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:13.860 institutions, to go to private institutions so 00:04:13.860 --> 00:04:16.560 that they can do their work. But that's going 00:04:16.560 --> 00:04:20.160 to be an additional episode probably down the 00:04:20.160 --> 00:04:24.000 line where we talk a little bit about the erasure 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:26.680 of DEI. But keep going and feel free to jump 00:04:26.680 --> 00:04:29.800 in on that piece, too, in regard to the PWIs 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:34.100 needing our presence and our experience. They 00:04:34.100 --> 00:04:36.980 need us. Just like American history, they need 00:04:36.980 --> 00:04:40.560 us. They don't want us, but they need us. So 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:46.980 one of the things about DEI erasure, let me take 00:04:46.980 --> 00:04:50.920 this back. There is a very well -funded guy named 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.779 Ed Bloom who believes that Black people are in 00:04:54.779 --> 00:04:58.399 places that we don't deserve to be at. The problem 00:04:58.399 --> 00:05:01.670 is that he can't outright come out and say, Black 00:05:01.670 --> 00:05:03.610 people are at places that we don't need to be. 00:05:03.850 --> 00:05:08.649 So what he does is he props up other racial groups, 00:05:08.730 --> 00:05:11.290 ethnic groups, whatever, to make it seem like 00:05:11.290 --> 00:05:14.689 we're taking something from them. Right. And 00:05:14.689 --> 00:05:17.589 he goes on this tangent and it helps that, you 00:05:17.589 --> 00:05:20.110 know, the court is compromised and, you know, 00:05:20.110 --> 00:05:22.430 Trumpism is a real thing and all that stuff. 00:05:22.629 --> 00:05:26.670 So he picked his time to bring a series of different 00:05:26.670 --> 00:05:29.990 lawsuits that challenged. the affirmative action 00:05:29.990 --> 00:05:32.129 policies that were put in place because black 00:05:32.129 --> 00:05:34.589 people were disproportionately not allowed to 00:05:34.589 --> 00:05:37.149 be admitted into those universities in the numbers 00:05:37.149 --> 00:05:40.290 that we should. Right. And it's a very interesting 00:05:40.290 --> 00:05:42.850 case study in and of itself, because for the 00:05:42.850 --> 00:05:45.189 most recent case that basically we deemed to 00:05:45.189 --> 00:05:48.689 overturn affirmative action, he propped up the 00:05:48.689 --> 00:05:52.009 Asian -American community. But if you poll and 00:05:52.009 --> 00:05:54.430 talk to Asian -American students at Harvard and 00:05:54.430 --> 00:05:57.170 USC, they didn't even want this, right? This 00:05:57.170 --> 00:06:00.589 is something that he was trying to prop up to 00:06:00.589 --> 00:06:03.490 say, oh, well, these Black kids got their seats. 00:06:03.589 --> 00:06:05.170 They don't deserve to be there. Now, keep in 00:06:05.170 --> 00:06:08.310 mind, if you look at the demographics of a Harvard, 00:06:08.689 --> 00:06:11.829 Black people are not making up large percentages 00:06:11.829 --> 00:06:14.860 at Harvard. No, sir. We aren't. We're there, 00:06:15.000 --> 00:06:17.279 but it's not a large percent. Exactly. It's a 00:06:17.279 --> 00:06:19.660 multitude of reasons as to why we aren't there. 00:06:19.779 --> 00:06:21.939 But we certainly aren't taking somebody's seat. 00:06:22.019 --> 00:06:24.879 Right. Like that's not us. Now, some of our white 00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:27.399 colleagues, you know, if you've ever heard of 00:06:27.399 --> 00:06:29.240 things like legacy admissions, people who just 00:06:29.240 --> 00:06:31.399 get in because their dad built a building or 00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:34.160 whatever. I mean, that plays a role in it. But 00:06:34.160 --> 00:06:36.600 nobody wants to talk about that. Right. And at 00:06:36.600 --> 00:06:38.939 least Bloom doesn't want to talk about it. So 00:06:38.939 --> 00:06:42.060 anyways, he does this lawsuit. The lawsuit gets 00:06:42.060 --> 00:06:44.720 tossed out at every level for lack of standing, 00:06:44.939 --> 00:06:47.459 which is true because Ed Bloom, you are not Asian 00:06:47.459 --> 00:06:50.160 -American, right? But for some reason, when it 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.819 gets to the Supreme Court of the United States, 00:06:52.939 --> 00:06:55.459 not only is he deemed to have standing in the 00:06:55.459 --> 00:06:58.220 compromise court that we know it is, he is deemed 00:06:58.220 --> 00:07:01.519 to be correct. And as a result, affirmative action 00:07:01.519 --> 00:07:04.720 changes. And what does that mean? Well, we had 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:08.839 a history of cases all throughout the 90s about. 00:07:09.540 --> 00:07:12.519 admissions policies and guidelines. There's this 00:07:12.519 --> 00:07:16.160 belief system in the general populace that race 00:07:16.160 --> 00:07:19.540 indicates additional points towards application 00:07:19.540 --> 00:07:23.500 and admissions considerations. And for some schools, 00:07:23.699 --> 00:07:26.899 maybe it did. So some schools, they may say, 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.680 all right, well, we know that there's a history 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:31.879 of culturally biased aptitude tests. We need 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:34.000 to make up for that. We know there's a history 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:36.160 of disproportionality as far as white and Black 00:07:36.160 --> 00:07:38.990 student admittees. We need to combat that. So 00:07:38.990 --> 00:07:40.910 these schools went out and did very progressive 00:07:40.910 --> 00:07:44.110 programs to try to diversify their student base. 00:07:44.329 --> 00:07:46.550 And for the most part, a lot of those programs 00:07:46.550 --> 00:07:49.050 did achieve some of the diversity efforts. Now, 00:07:49.089 --> 00:07:51.829 when I say diversity, depending on the group 00:07:51.829 --> 00:07:55.250 that I'm in, if diversity is black people, they'd 00:07:55.250 --> 00:07:57.410 be like, oh, so they went from 13 percent to 00:07:57.410 --> 00:08:01.829 17 percent. Right. OK. That's diversity. If it's 00:08:01.829 --> 00:08:03.189 a white people, it's like, wow, we went from, 00:08:03.189 --> 00:08:05.990 you know, 13 to 17. Like, it depends, right? 00:08:06.350 --> 00:08:09.870 We're not talking about 50 -50 diversity. We're 00:08:09.870 --> 00:08:12.389 not talking about that. But one of the things 00:08:12.389 --> 00:08:14.930 that I've always kind of appreciated in these 00:08:14.930 --> 00:08:18.209 arguments is that there's obviously a contribution 00:08:18.209 --> 00:08:20.649 that we have to these campuses. And I'll give 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:24.970 you a case in point, right? Some people like 00:08:24.970 --> 00:08:28.220 the University of Alabama, right? University 00:08:28.220 --> 00:08:30.339 of Alabama has a rich history of discrimination 00:08:30.339 --> 00:08:32.820 and all that. But you know what else University 00:08:32.820 --> 00:08:36.340 of Alabama got? A football team that's 80 % Black 00:08:36.340 --> 00:08:40.919 people. So, obviously, we're here for something, 00:08:41.059 --> 00:08:43.559 right? You want us there for something, right? 00:08:44.120 --> 00:08:46.360 And then on top of that, they went years and 00:08:46.360 --> 00:08:48.279 years before NIL and all that without having 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.639 to pay people. So, you're just getting the spoils 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:53.940 of these people coming and then you send them 00:08:53.940 --> 00:08:56.500 back home broken or maybe wanting to go to the 00:08:56.500 --> 00:08:59.600 NFL. And the school keeps all that money and 00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:01.559 uses it for all the programs that they want to 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:03.919 expand to their largely white demographic. All 00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:08.820 right. So there is a need for us. Now, I'll say 00:09:08.820 --> 00:09:11.639 we've actually had a number of academic achievements 00:09:11.639 --> 00:09:14.279 from these institutions as well. But one of the 00:09:14.279 --> 00:09:16.559 things about having black students is black students 00:09:16.559 --> 00:09:18.820 tend to be vocal and they're going to demand 00:09:18.820 --> 00:09:21.909 to see black professors. Right. Which means you 00:09:21.909 --> 00:09:24.129 can't just diversify the student body. You have 00:09:24.129 --> 00:09:26.889 to diversify the faculty. And if you diversify 00:09:26.889 --> 00:09:28.950 the faculty, faculty is going to ask for black 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:31.570 leadership. So you got to diversify the administration. 00:09:32.090 --> 00:09:34.950 And at a certain point, the people who don't 00:09:34.950 --> 00:09:37.269 want the diversity that they claim or whatever, 00:09:37.490 --> 00:09:40.950 secretly we're meeting to say, how do we stop 00:09:40.950 --> 00:09:43.789 it? So now what we're seeing is the quiet part 00:09:43.789 --> 00:09:46.029 being said out loud. They're like, all right. 00:09:46.360 --> 00:09:47.639 We don't want diversity. We're going to take 00:09:47.639 --> 00:09:49.240 it off the books. As a matter of fact, while 00:09:49.240 --> 00:09:51.059 you're at it, erase Black history. We don't need 00:09:51.059 --> 00:09:55.080 that. We need you to forget all this bad stuff 00:09:55.080 --> 00:09:58.659 we did and just accept it. And further, going 00:09:58.659 --> 00:10:01.960 back to Ed Bloom, when he finished dismantling 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.320 affirmative action, the next step he did was 00:10:05.320 --> 00:10:07.860 to try to dismantle, which essentially was successful, 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:12.639 dismantle the venture fund. So there were. Oh, 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:16.080 yeah. As venture capitalists, they came together 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:18.720 because they weren't accepted in a traditional 00:10:18.720 --> 00:10:21.320 venture capitalist firms. So they did their own 00:10:21.320 --> 00:10:23.059 thing, which is the American thing to do. If 00:10:23.059 --> 00:10:25.000 you don't want me, I'll be competition. Right. 00:10:25.460 --> 00:10:28.179 So they did their own thing. He went and said, 00:10:28.220 --> 00:10:30.279 well, now they're racially discriminating. How 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:34.600 dare they be successful in black. Right. Bottom 00:10:34.600 --> 00:10:38.100 line. Right. So. The thing about it is I hope 00:10:38.100 --> 00:10:40.399 that anybody who is listening to this understands 00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:43.639 and appreciates the value that you have. And 00:10:43.639 --> 00:10:45.379 the fact that, you know, I don't want to like, 00:10:45.399 --> 00:10:48.379 I don't like using words like warfare and stuff 00:10:48.379 --> 00:10:50.139 like that because I don't want it to be, you 00:10:50.139 --> 00:10:53.779 know, inflammatory. Violent or, yeah. Yeah, but 00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:56.799 there are people who philosophically feel like 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:00.720 they want your talents, but they don't want you. 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:04.240 And as a people in a community, our job is to 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:06.600 say, you can't get one without the other. This 00:11:06.600 --> 00:11:10.419 isn't 1775 anymore, right? We're going to be 00:11:10.419 --> 00:11:12.200 here. We're going to be vocal. We're going to 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:15.120 have positions to play in this system. And you're 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.519 going to have to deal with us. And these old 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:19.440 arcade notions about who we are, what we can 00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:21.779 do, have to die out. And if you're not ready 00:11:21.779 --> 00:11:24.600 to deal with that, okay. I now want to go back 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:27.870 and revert to. people understanding that HBCUs 00:11:27.870 --> 00:11:30.190 were created by our forefathers because they 00:11:30.190 --> 00:11:32.769 knew this was happening already. They were created 00:11:32.769 --> 00:11:34.850 because we weren't accepted on those campuses. 00:11:35.090 --> 00:11:37.950 So you don't have to necessarily force yourself 00:11:37.950 --> 00:11:40.690 into a door where people don't want you. We got 00:11:40.690 --> 00:11:43.649 schools that teach you just as well, if not better. 00:11:43.669 --> 00:11:45.509 If not better. That's going to love you, right? 00:11:45.690 --> 00:11:48.070 Who's going to respect you and appreciate you 00:11:48.070 --> 00:11:51.409 and elevate you to where you want to be, right? 00:11:51.590 --> 00:11:55.220 Right, right. So always like... All credit is 00:11:55.220 --> 00:11:59.279 due to HBCUs who have been doing this good work 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:02.360 and good labor. And the secret that I found out, 00:12:02.379 --> 00:12:04.320 particularly when I got, you know, my first day 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.779 at Florida A &M, the secret I found out is we 00:12:07.779 --> 00:12:10.580 don't talk enough about diversity amongst Black 00:12:10.580 --> 00:12:14.080 people, right? There's a lot of Black diversity. 00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:16.720 Florida A &M was like a union of nations of Black 00:12:16.720 --> 00:12:19.779 people. We had Haitian people, Jamaican people. 00:12:20.529 --> 00:12:24.370 People from Barbados, people from Africa. We 00:12:24.370 --> 00:12:26.470 had people from all over. And then even amongst 00:12:26.470 --> 00:12:29.230 Black Americans, somebody who grew up in Chicago 00:12:29.230 --> 00:12:31.049 is different from somebody who grew up in Florida, 00:12:31.190 --> 00:12:34.289 right? Yeah, it's totally different. It's a lot 00:12:34.289 --> 00:12:38.210 of diversity. And we have our own kind of microcosm 00:12:38.210 --> 00:12:41.970 of issues and relationships and all those things 00:12:41.970 --> 00:12:45.070 within those lenses as well that we don't often 00:12:45.070 --> 00:12:47.700 address because we're so busy. battling kind 00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:49.700 of the white mantle when we go out into this 00:12:49.700 --> 00:12:53.360 American society. So I really thought it was 00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:55.879 a beautiful thing that for four years, you know, 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:57.840 my roommate was Filipino. It was a Black dude 00:12:57.840 --> 00:13:02.580 from the Philippines. Wow. It's just to see the 00:13:02.580 --> 00:13:04.899 diversity and to see that no matter where people 00:13:04.899 --> 00:13:07.960 were from, they were brilliant. Right. Brilliant 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.360 folks. And, you know, it helps that you're brilliant 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:14.059 and you got swag and all this stuff like you 00:13:14.059 --> 00:13:15.799 can be cool with your brilliance. You don't have 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.480 to hide your brilliance. Right. So I think those 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.120 are the things that I really value when it comes 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:25.399 to HBCU education. Right. And I think that we're 00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:27.080 going to see more and more, particularly with 00:13:27.080 --> 00:13:29.919 this upcoming. presidential election, we're going 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:33.159 to see what the value of that HBCU education 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:36.759 does. If you're enjoying the show as much as 00:13:36.759 --> 00:13:39.960 we love creating it, consider showing your support 00:13:39.960 --> 00:13:44.580 by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit buymeacoffee 00:13:44.580 --> 00:13:51.059 .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:13:51.059 --> 00:13:57.980 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. all one word. 00:13:58.080 --> 00:14:02.759 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:14:02.759 --> 00:14:05.919 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:09.120 the high quality content you've come to expect 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:12.419 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you for 00:14:12.419 --> 00:14:15.039 your continued support and let's keep the conversation 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.320 going. All right, so we've been talking a lot 00:14:18.320 --> 00:14:23.309 about education, entrepreneurship. economic justice 00:14:23.309 --> 00:14:29.210 as protective factors to falling prey to the 00:14:29.210 --> 00:14:32.149 criminal justice system and the carceral system. 00:14:32.809 --> 00:14:37.769 So it sounds like I know the answer to this question, 00:14:38.129 --> 00:14:40.450 but I'm going to go ahead and go there anyway 00:14:40.450 --> 00:14:43.649 so we can flesh it out some more for our audience. 00:14:43.889 --> 00:14:46.470 Do you believe that there's a school to prison 00:14:46.470 --> 00:14:50.429 pipeline? And if so, how does it show up in your 00:14:50.429 --> 00:14:54.620 work? or affect the communities you serve? Yes. 00:14:56.700 --> 00:15:00.679 Absolutely. Right. Right. What I'll say is I 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:03.159 think that there have been strides made to improve 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:07.679 resistance to that. So for anybody who went to, 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:10.139 particularly if you went to high school. in the 00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:13.379 inner city area in the 90s or early 2000s, it 00:15:13.379 --> 00:15:16.000 was like we had little small disciplinary issues 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:17.740 that were getting referred to the school resource 00:15:17.740 --> 00:15:21.080 office for prosecution. And you don't need to 00:15:21.080 --> 00:15:23.740 do all that. There may still be a need when it 00:15:23.740 --> 00:15:26.279 comes to, you know, threats of imminent violence 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:29.720 on school campuses or stuff like that. But, you 00:15:29.720 --> 00:15:32.779 know, little fights, things like that, like some 00:15:32.779 --> 00:15:35.240 stuff needs to be conflict resolution at the 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.559 school. But for those who don't know, so school 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:39.960 to prison pipeline was the system that was essentially 00:15:39.960 --> 00:15:43.179 what we deem to be when these schools report 00:15:43.179 --> 00:15:46.360 you so that you now have a criminal record for 00:15:46.360 --> 00:15:48.740 the purpose of, I guess, marking that they did 00:15:48.740 --> 00:15:50.419 something so they wouldn't be held accountable 00:15:50.419 --> 00:15:52.879 if something happened. And for the purpose of 00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:56.200 getting what they call bad actors into the judicial 00:15:56.200 --> 00:15:59.559 system. But the problem is the judicial system 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:03.059 isn't really equipped to deal with that. Right. 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:05.379 So a lot of times when we will go to court and 00:16:05.379 --> 00:16:08.320 represent people who are, you know, 16, 15, 16, 00:16:08.460 --> 00:16:11.259 17. And the judge was like, well, this is a baby. 00:16:11.419 --> 00:16:13.860 This is a baby. I don't want to throw him in 00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:15.940 jail. But at the same time, I mean, yeah, he 00:16:15.940 --> 00:16:19.320 did what you accused them of. So we had to get 00:16:19.320 --> 00:16:21.600 creative about things like diversion programs. 00:16:21.799 --> 00:16:24.100 And what does that look like? Can I set community 00:16:24.100 --> 00:16:26.179 service up for a 15 year old who doesn't have 00:16:26.179 --> 00:16:28.600 transportation to get to the place that the community 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.320 service is going to be available at? Right. So. 00:16:31.899 --> 00:16:34.679 What we have since done is it sounds like we've 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.440 expanded a lot more of the diversion programs. 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.299 However, schools are still, you know, they're 00:16:41.299 --> 00:16:43.039 not a monolith. So there are some principals 00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:46.179 who are believing if you do this, you get arrested. 00:16:46.340 --> 00:16:48.620 There are other places that conflict resolution. 00:16:50.059 --> 00:16:52.639 Ultimately, I guess the second part of that is 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:56.379 how does that impact the greater community? But 00:16:56.379 --> 00:16:59.580 one, a lot of people appreciate this, particularly 00:16:59.580 --> 00:17:01.919 for my community. But when you have a criminal 00:17:01.919 --> 00:17:04.220 record, that's going to impact what jobs you 00:17:04.220 --> 00:17:06.539 get, if you get to school, if you can go to the 00:17:06.539 --> 00:17:09.940 military, like all that stuff. And so that's 00:17:09.940 --> 00:17:13.059 going to damage your economic empowerment. On 00:17:13.059 --> 00:17:16.539 top of that, a lot of people aren't always familiar 00:17:16.539 --> 00:17:19.509 with. the steps you have to go through for getting 00:17:19.509 --> 00:17:22.029 things expunged, or whether or not the charge 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:24.269 even qualifies for expungement, because it's 00:17:24.269 --> 00:17:27.549 very limited, right? So, you know, if you can't 00:17:27.549 --> 00:17:29.250 qualify for an expungement and it has to sit 00:17:29.250 --> 00:17:32.230 on your record, then there's kind of this albatross 00:17:32.230 --> 00:17:33.769 around your neck where there's always going to 00:17:33.769 --> 00:17:36.869 be somebody who, if you do anything wrong, that's 00:17:36.869 --> 00:17:38.660 the first thing they're going to pick up. Right. 00:17:38.759 --> 00:17:40.579 And they're trying to use that to characterize 00:17:40.579 --> 00:17:43.799 what kind of person you are. Who are you and 00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.059 do you deserve to be at this job or in this school 00:17:47.059 --> 00:17:49.880 or whatever the case may be? Right. So there's 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:52.799 that. The other thing, once you get older, is 00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:56.859 that if you ever have to go on any kind of public 00:17:56.859 --> 00:18:00.819 assistance or housing, well, that could be a 00:18:00.819 --> 00:18:03.140 barrier to you being able to access housing. 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:06.640 Right. So if you can't access housing, that means 00:18:06.640 --> 00:18:08.519 that you have housing instability. If you have 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.039 housing instability, that means that you either 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.119 got to rely on a relative to get something done 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:15.740 with something. A lot of you got relatives that's 00:18:15.740 --> 00:18:18.759 tied up and stuff, too. Or you have to, you know, 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.759 be on your own and figure it out or go to an 00:18:21.759 --> 00:18:26.579 unscrupulous landlord who's predatory. So we 00:18:26.579 --> 00:18:29.740 want to maximize the options that people from 00:18:29.740 --> 00:18:33.039 our community have. And the best way to do that. 00:18:33.470 --> 00:18:37.130 is to avoid charges altogether. I know, especially 00:18:37.130 --> 00:18:39.309 being from the community I'm from, that it's 00:18:39.309 --> 00:18:42.470 easier said than done. I think people like to 00:18:42.470 --> 00:18:45.069 try you all the time. They want to try you and 00:18:45.069 --> 00:18:47.130 put you in situations that you got to make split 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:49.589 second decisions. But one of the things that 00:18:49.589 --> 00:18:52.710 I've been very active about telling mentees and 00:18:52.710 --> 00:18:55.930 young people I talk to is understanding the difference 00:18:55.930 --> 00:19:00.730 between momentary pride versus like true success. 00:19:01.109 --> 00:19:03.819 Right. you could win in the moment but then go 00:19:03.819 --> 00:19:06.180 to jail or get a record or whatever yeah and 00:19:06.180 --> 00:19:08.599 now you're losing for the lifetime as opposed 00:19:08.599 --> 00:19:11.039 to losing for the moment like all right you know 00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:14.480 i'm weak whatever you win and then move on and 00:19:14.480 --> 00:19:17.319 you have a great life right and again i know 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:19.339 i'm saying this from a period of privilege now 00:19:19.339 --> 00:19:21.099 i would have been right if you checked in with 00:19:21.099 --> 00:19:24.779 me in 97 yeah it might have been a totally different 00:19:24.779 --> 00:19:28.200 answer right right right but but i'm matured 00:19:28.200 --> 00:19:30.019 right and i'm hoping that i could bring that 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.200 maturity factor and perspective in to folks who 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:37.539 are 16, 17 now, because I have also, just like 00:19:37.539 --> 00:19:39.900 I've seen very bad things in the world, I've 00:19:39.900 --> 00:19:42.839 also been blessed to see very good things. And 00:19:42.839 --> 00:19:45.980 it feels so good to be able to sleep at night 00:19:45.980 --> 00:19:49.099 without keeping one eye open and, you know, worried 00:19:49.099 --> 00:19:51.279 about somebody for two years ago who just got 00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:53.960 out, coming, looking for you. Like, I don't have 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:57.259 no worries, man. Like, I do the best I can. I 00:19:57.259 --> 00:19:59.400 come home, try to raise my kid for a few minutes 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:04.119 and, you know, enjoy life. And I'm trying to 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:07.270 get people to the point where they are. traveling. 00:20:07.270 --> 00:20:11.210 When you go to other countries and you see that 00:20:11.210 --> 00:20:13.690 the way we do it here may or may not be the right 00:20:13.690 --> 00:20:15.630 way to do it. There are other ways to do it. 00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:18.210 There are countries that value the sense of community 00:20:18.210 --> 00:20:21.509 and values and pride and countries that don't 00:20:21.509 --> 00:20:24.950 value work. You know what I'm saying? If they 00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:26.869 say we're going to the beach at 4 o 'clock, they're 00:20:26.869 --> 00:20:28.630 going to the beach at 4 o 'clock. They're going 00:20:28.630 --> 00:20:31.430 to enjoy themselves. I got to get this overtime 00:20:31.430 --> 00:20:34.170 in. I got to get this extra money. Because you 00:20:34.170 --> 00:20:36.789 have to. I mean, and I think that that's really 00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:41.470 interesting, you know, how, you know, being able 00:20:41.470 --> 00:20:45.589 to give back at this phase and say, this is how 00:20:45.589 --> 00:20:47.670 I got here. And these are the types of decisions 00:20:47.670 --> 00:20:51.630 that I had to make or looking back, I realized 00:20:51.630 --> 00:20:54.750 that the value in these decisions are really, 00:20:54.789 --> 00:20:57.650 you know, what set me up for success and allowed 00:20:57.650 --> 00:21:01.170 me to keep moving in this direction. And also 00:21:01.170 --> 00:21:09.190 just so much weight. on a young person in a moment 00:21:09.190 --> 00:21:13.710 can change your life for better or worse, right? 00:21:13.769 --> 00:21:19.670 Because for you, the decision that you made to 00:21:19.670 --> 00:21:24.369 stop and talk to that woman with her daughter 00:21:24.369 --> 00:21:27.410 who was lost on campus changed your life, right? 00:21:27.450 --> 00:21:30.539 For the better. So one thing that I'm going to 00:21:30.539 --> 00:21:32.640 pick your brain about before I go on to my next 00:21:32.640 --> 00:21:37.319 question is I have been seeing a lot of conversation. 00:21:37.460 --> 00:21:39.880 And if you don't feel comfortable answering this 00:21:39.880 --> 00:21:43.480 question, we can move on. But I think you're 00:21:43.480 --> 00:21:45.339 equipped. I think you know where I'm going. You'll 00:21:45.339 --> 00:21:51.680 be fine. What I want to ask about is how people, 00:21:51.940 --> 00:21:54.279 young people, young people with disabilities 00:21:54.279 --> 00:22:00.299 are more vulnerable. to the school to prison 00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:04.019 pipeline. Those who have been following my show 00:22:04.019 --> 00:22:10.660 will recognize that I talk about Black disability 00:22:10.660 --> 00:22:14.339 communities a lot on my show. One, because I 00:22:14.339 --> 00:22:16.539 have a child that has a disability and I grew 00:22:16.539 --> 00:22:19.980 up in a community that embraced disability justice. 00:22:20.500 --> 00:22:23.640 So it primed me for being able to be an advocate. 00:22:24.160 --> 00:22:26.799 Once my daughter came along into the world. And 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:29.779 so as I'm gathering more and more information 00:22:29.779 --> 00:22:32.779 about health equity, social justice, economic 00:22:32.779 --> 00:22:36.700 justice, things of that sort. And I've had a 00:22:36.700 --> 00:22:40.420 career at the intersection of clinical research 00:22:40.420 --> 00:22:43.619 and public health and criminal justice. I've 00:22:43.619 --> 00:22:47.539 been really curious to hear more about and talk 00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:50.640 more about how people with disabilities, Black 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:54.410 people, young people are more vulnerable. to 00:22:54.410 --> 00:22:56.430 getting caught up in that school to prison pipeline. 00:22:56.650 --> 00:22:59.150 Can you share a little bit about that? Absolutely. 00:22:59.490 --> 00:23:03.349 So first and foremost, I think the initial label 00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:07.490 of being Black, regardless of disability status, 00:23:07.750 --> 00:23:11.089 already causes people to be vigilant and be looking 00:23:11.089 --> 00:23:13.730 for you to mess up, right? So that's the first 00:23:13.730 --> 00:23:17.009 thing. But the second part of that is with people 00:23:17.009 --> 00:23:19.509 who have disabilities, they don't necessarily 00:23:19.509 --> 00:23:23.319 know. or aren't trained to know or don't really 00:23:23.319 --> 00:23:26.799 try to learn. Or don't have the capacity. Don't 00:23:26.799 --> 00:23:29.720 have the capacity to know kind of what's unique 00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:32.779 and nuanced for that particular individual. And 00:23:32.779 --> 00:23:36.680 so what happens is there's this rush to judgment, 00:23:36.799 --> 00:23:38.980 like rush to say, oh, well, whatever they do, 00:23:39.019 --> 00:23:40.940 they're going to be bad. They're bad kids, whatever 00:23:40.940 --> 00:23:44.359 the case may be. And it's all to feed into this 00:23:44.359 --> 00:23:46.519 narrative that people are somehow incapable. 00:23:47.480 --> 00:23:50.400 of, you know, doing the right thing or learning 00:23:50.400 --> 00:23:52.980 or whatever the case may be. And I think, you 00:23:52.980 --> 00:23:56.799 know, it's something that is wrong, but like 00:23:56.799 --> 00:23:59.940 it's going to be even more exacerbated and disproportionate 00:23:59.940 --> 00:24:02.319 in Black communities because they're already 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:05.720 looking. Like I said, everybody, regardless of 00:24:05.720 --> 00:24:07.460 where you are, what race you are, what ethnicity 00:24:07.460 --> 00:24:10.279 you are, like crime is the same in all levels, 00:24:10.440 --> 00:24:13.440 right? When crime happens, right? But it's about 00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:15.759 where you're looking. So if you're already looking 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:17.019 at black people, you're like, I know they're 00:24:17.019 --> 00:24:19.240 going to mess up. And then you don't know that 00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:20.900 the person has a disability or you don't care 00:24:20.900 --> 00:24:23.279 that the person has a disability. That's only 00:24:23.279 --> 00:24:26.220 going to make it worse. What I get really nervous 00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:30.140 about is things like involvement with law enforcement. 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.539 Right. Law enforcement. I'm going to try to say 00:24:34.539 --> 00:24:36.259 something nice about them before I say something 00:24:36.259 --> 00:24:39.799 bad. So the nice part is that law enforcement 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:42.779 gets tasked with doing a lot of jobs that. probably 00:24:42.779 --> 00:24:46.299 aren't law enforcement right so we test them 00:24:46.299 --> 00:24:48.599 with being first responders we test them with 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.299 analyzing the situation when they get there we 00:24:51.299 --> 00:24:53.380 test them with keeping the community safe we 00:24:53.380 --> 00:24:55.400 test them to get rid of the bad person who's 00:24:55.400 --> 00:24:58.240 doing something and we put a lot on them right 00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:00.880 for not a lot of pay and for not a lot of training 00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:04.859 so you know we put a lot on them but at the same 00:25:04.859 --> 00:25:08.579 time what i also believe is law enforcement also 00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:12.169 comes into their job with certain expectations 00:25:12.169 --> 00:25:15.109 of different communities. If they're not exposed 00:25:15.109 --> 00:25:17.750 to the community and they don't build relationships 00:25:17.750 --> 00:25:20.029 with people in the community, they don't know 00:25:20.029 --> 00:25:21.990 what's going on. They just want to be the big 00:25:21.990 --> 00:25:25.910 man with the gun. In certain communities, you're 00:25:25.910 --> 00:25:29.670 not the only one with a gun. It's going to be 00:25:29.670 --> 00:25:32.190 real hard for you to pull that off where everybody 00:25:32.190 --> 00:25:36.089 got them. There's that, but then there's also 00:25:36.089 --> 00:25:39.849 you have to be involved in the community. to 00:25:39.849 --> 00:25:42.569 be able to recognize or understand when there 00:25:42.569 --> 00:25:44.450 is somebody who is dealing with a disability 00:25:44.450 --> 00:25:47.410 sometimes. Because the community will tell you, 00:25:47.450 --> 00:25:49.890 like, oh, no, that's so -and -so. Like, we're 00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:51.750 good. But if you're not trying to hear that, 00:25:51.849 --> 00:25:54.650 and you're just rushing in, guns blazing, that's 00:25:54.650 --> 00:25:56.950 when we get the major news stories that come 00:25:56.950 --> 00:25:59.349 out. The police officers will say, oh, I feared 00:25:59.349 --> 00:26:03.089 for my life, this, that. And the concern for 00:26:03.089 --> 00:26:05.690 us is always, like, why is it that you always 00:26:05.690 --> 00:26:08.390 in fear when that person is Black? Why is that 00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:10.890 fear not taking over to the other side of town 00:26:10.890 --> 00:26:13.710 where white people, right? Not that we want white 00:26:13.710 --> 00:26:15.690 people to, you know, go through bad things. It's 00:26:15.690 --> 00:26:19.430 more like it can't always be us, right? You only 00:26:19.430 --> 00:26:23.190 scare when you're over here. And so I think all 00:26:23.190 --> 00:26:25.430 of those things play into a factor. And I also 00:26:25.430 --> 00:26:29.890 think, you know, we have a rich history just 00:26:29.890 --> 00:26:34.539 nationally of otherism, right? We want to, in 00:26:34.539 --> 00:26:37.660 America, like say that certain people have these 00:26:37.660 --> 00:26:39.900 limitations, be it based on race, ethnicity, 00:26:40.240 --> 00:26:43.000 be it on ability, be it on, you know, sexual 00:26:43.000 --> 00:26:45.019 preference, whatever the case may be. They have 00:26:45.019 --> 00:26:47.680 these limitations and it all feeds into kind 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:50.380 of a white supremacist construct. Right. The 00:26:50.380 --> 00:26:53.759 only person who's right is a heterosexual white 00:26:53.759 --> 00:26:59.259 male. Right. And so all this stuff feeds in and 00:26:59.259 --> 00:27:02.559 what happens and you see this really like. political 00:27:02.559 --> 00:27:06.019 season especially, all they do is put out ads 00:27:06.019 --> 00:27:08.880 that divide people just to make folks be like, 00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.519 oh, well, it's the immigrants that did it, or 00:27:10.519 --> 00:27:12.960 it's this that did it, so that you never focus 00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.720 on the true culprit that's taking your money 00:27:15.720 --> 00:27:17.740 and not giving you the service that you're paying 00:27:17.740 --> 00:27:21.720 for. I think there are a lot of things we need 00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:25.500 to do to fix that system, but for people who 00:27:25.500 --> 00:27:27.779 are specifically dealing with being Black and 00:27:27.779 --> 00:27:30.789 having a disability, I really think it's important 00:27:30.789 --> 00:27:33.450 upon us as all Black people to foster a community 00:27:33.450 --> 00:27:36.950 of protection and understanding. We have to be 00:27:36.950 --> 00:27:40.049 our brother's keeper, in a sense, because we 00:27:40.049 --> 00:27:42.529 may know what people are struggling with, or 00:27:42.529 --> 00:27:45.029 we may at least be able to allude. If you see 00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:47.529 people, you interact with them on a daily basis. 00:27:47.789 --> 00:27:50.369 You know somebody who may be in that situation. 00:27:51.150 --> 00:27:53.690 And you're able to like voice or vocalize things 00:27:53.690 --> 00:27:55.670 for them in a way that they may not be able to 00:27:55.670 --> 00:27:58.630 do for themselves. Right. But I know also that's 00:27:58.630 --> 00:28:00.710 going to be a hard ask for people when the police 00:28:00.710 --> 00:28:02.730 come and they just looking for guilt. Right. 00:28:04.470 --> 00:28:06.009 It's going to be very few people going to be 00:28:06.009 --> 00:28:07.789 willing to take that step. You have to be brave 00:28:07.789 --> 00:28:11.390 and courageous to do that. And I think I've always 00:28:11.390 --> 00:28:13.869 viewed the community as being kind of an extension 00:28:13.869 --> 00:28:18.509 of myself. So if I see somebody in trouble, it 00:28:18.509 --> 00:28:21.259 will be a lot easier for me to. take that stance 00:28:21.259 --> 00:28:23.819 only because i would feel like okay well but 00:28:23.819 --> 00:28:26.900 for the grace of god that would be me right but 00:28:26.900 --> 00:28:30.640 it can't just be one person it has to be the 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.539 entire community being receptive right and i'm 00:28:33.539 --> 00:28:35.900 not going to say that i'm an expert on in all 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:38.500 the disabilities but i also know that there are 00:28:38.500 --> 00:28:40.660 some people who you are visibly understanding 00:28:40.660 --> 00:28:44.349 based on right uh, emotionally given cues or, 00:28:44.410 --> 00:28:46.289 you know, some people, you know, they have a 00:28:46.289 --> 00:28:48.569 sense of touch, like touch is the thing you, 00:28:48.630 --> 00:28:50.890 you can pick up and you know, when somebody is 00:28:50.890 --> 00:28:54.069 not trying to be, you know, disrespectful or 00:28:54.069 --> 00:28:56.990 mean, whatever the case may be or violent. And 00:28:56.990 --> 00:28:59.049 I think it's important for us to all kind of 00:28:59.049 --> 00:29:01.930 galvanize and take up for each other. Right. 00:29:02.049 --> 00:29:05.980 Right. So you just. I appreciate you for going 00:29:05.980 --> 00:29:08.420 there with me and just kind of in our audience 00:29:08.420 --> 00:29:11.680 and shedding light on, you know, the vulnerabilities 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.779 in our community. And then this special, you 00:29:15.779 --> 00:29:18.140 know, subpopulation that I hold near and dear 00:29:18.140 --> 00:29:20.559 to my heart. And I think a lot of us have a lot 00:29:20.559 --> 00:29:23.920 of compassion for and want to, you know, stand 00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:27.960 up and be protective of those people as much 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:32.599 as is, you know, respectful. You know what I 00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:36.859 mean? You know, you've talked about so many aspects 00:29:36.859 --> 00:29:41.400 of our society, our community, and yet you're 00:29:41.400 --> 00:29:44.740 a lawyer, right? So, you know, I see so much 00:29:44.740 --> 00:29:46.480 of the things that I've been concerned about 00:29:46.480 --> 00:29:49.259 as a person with a psychology background, as 00:29:49.259 --> 00:29:52.819 a person with a public health background. Like, 00:29:52.839 --> 00:29:54.900 you know, when I came to Duke, I was really focused 00:29:54.900 --> 00:29:58.859 on population health. And so it just in your 00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:02.579 own mind. Do you consider how your work as a 00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:05.140 lawyer affects public health and population health? 00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:09.460 Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Tell us why and how. So 00:30:09.460 --> 00:30:12.539 the main thrust of the work that I do now involves 00:30:12.539 --> 00:30:17.420 evictions, right? And evictions are a social 00:30:17.420 --> 00:30:20.759 determinant of health. You don't have stabilized 00:30:20.759 --> 00:30:24.359 housing. Everything else in your life is at jeopardy, 00:30:24.359 --> 00:30:27.019 including access to health care and all those 00:30:27.019 --> 00:30:28.859 things. And it's an additional stress is going 00:30:28.859 --> 00:30:31.700 to create more physiological issues anyway. So 00:30:31.700 --> 00:30:35.259 one of the things that I always tell people is 00:30:35.259 --> 00:30:39.640 with evictions, it's a it's a symptom of like 00:30:39.640 --> 00:30:43.500 kind of how we view housing in America. Housing 00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:46.859 in America is viewed as a commodity, not as a 00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:49.420 right. And so what that means is the people who 00:30:49.420 --> 00:30:51.640 have the money and resources to be able to buy 00:30:51.640 --> 00:30:54.480 housing or rent housing are going to be housed. 00:30:54.700 --> 00:30:57.339 And the people who don't, tough love. Right. 00:30:57.859 --> 00:31:02.259 And so what happens is all too often developers 00:31:02.259 --> 00:31:05.619 who enter a housing market want to develop, but 00:31:05.619 --> 00:31:08.880 they're developing for a profit motive. So they're 00:31:08.880 --> 00:31:11.220 going to develop. I mean, we can find in the 00:31:11.220 --> 00:31:13.819 area I'm in now, there are tons of houses that 00:31:13.819 --> 00:31:16.059 are being sold with one point five to two million 00:31:16.059 --> 00:31:20.900 dollars. Like we don't have that. Not at all. 00:31:21.019 --> 00:31:23.759 For the people who need something that is quote 00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:27.099 unquote affordable, there are not a lot of options. 00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.420 And that means that you're relegated to renting, 00:31:29.539 --> 00:31:32.279 which means that you're driving more demand into 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.799 a rental market. So landlords see an opportunity 00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:38.440 for their prices to go up. Right. And so. All 00:31:38.440 --> 00:31:41.759 this stuff does is at a certain point, it makes 00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.160 the regular person who gets up, goes to work 00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:47.779 every day, may not necessarily have a high salary 00:31:47.779 --> 00:31:50.579 to be able to offset all these costs. It pushes 00:31:50.579 --> 00:31:54.240 them out. Right. You can't stay here. Good luck 00:31:54.240 --> 00:31:56.680 in Creedmoor. Good luck in Maryland. Whatever 00:31:56.680 --> 00:31:59.299 the case may be. But then if you have struggles 00:31:59.299 --> 00:32:01.359 there, you're probably also going to have a struggle 00:32:01.359 --> 00:32:03.059 in an area like North Carolina with transportation 00:32:03.059 --> 00:32:06.220 because you live in Creedmoor, but the job is 00:32:06.220 --> 00:32:08.819 in Durham. Nobody coming to get you. You got 00:32:08.819 --> 00:32:10.640 to drive yourself there. We don't have public 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:12.980 transit. It's going to get you everywhere. Right. 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:16.839 So I think there are a lot of things. And I always 00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:20.220 refer back to Durham just because Durham is an 00:32:20.220 --> 00:32:23.680 interesting case study. A lot of people don't 00:32:23.680 --> 00:32:26.599 know this, but W .E .B. Dubois came to Durham 00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:29.960 at the turn of the century. Right. And he was 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:33.559 amazed. by Durham. It was, to him, it was like 00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:36.039 Black heaven, right? It was a place with Black 00:32:36.039 --> 00:32:39.559 people on hotels, restaurants, banks, medical 00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:42.420 centers, like all this stuff. And while it was 00:32:42.420 --> 00:32:45.140 still segregated from white society, we didn't 00:32:45.140 --> 00:32:47.700 have the issues of violence that all of the other 00:32:47.700 --> 00:32:50.500 cities in the South that are known had, right? 00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:53.579 We found a way to coexist and everybody have 00:32:53.579 --> 00:32:57.289 what they need. until the 1970s and 80s, right? 00:32:57.750 --> 00:32:59.390 When they said we're going to build a highway 00:32:59.390 --> 00:33:01.829 through all the Black communities and they're 00:33:01.829 --> 00:33:04.789 going to be gone and decimated or whatever. So 00:33:04.789 --> 00:33:08.210 my thought process has always been that is kind 00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:11.609 of the foundation of what Durham can be, right? 00:33:11.910 --> 00:33:14.069 We know we have people here who are business 00:33:14.069 --> 00:33:16.430 folks, who are innovative, whoever, you know, 00:33:16.430 --> 00:33:19.230 can do all kinds of things. But the issue is 00:33:19.230 --> 00:33:23.210 that when we got decimated, and plunged into 00:33:23.210 --> 00:33:27.369 the poverty of the 70s 80s 90s then what happened 00:33:27.369 --> 00:33:30.589 was there weren't resources from the city that 00:33:30.589 --> 00:33:32.589 would come in to be able to provide the things 00:33:32.589 --> 00:33:35.609 that people needed so we're losing housing people 00:33:35.609 --> 00:33:38.210 weren't getting housing we also have a rich history 00:33:38.210 --> 00:33:41.849 of uh it was an urban renewal program that attempted 00:33:41.849 --> 00:33:44.390 to say give me your house we'll build it up we'll 00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:46.670 fix it and then we'll give it back to you but 00:33:46.670 --> 00:33:48.890 then they never gave people The house is back 00:33:48.890 --> 00:33:51.849 and they drove folks into relying on public housing 00:33:51.849 --> 00:33:56.210 system. So we've got that. But with all of this 00:33:56.210 --> 00:33:59.930 history of what has happened in that time frame, 00:34:00.109 --> 00:34:03.950 what we have not done is really reached back 00:34:03.950 --> 00:34:08.030 to stabilize community first. And what happened 00:34:08.030 --> 00:34:11.909 was we had a mayor who I actually like who said, 00:34:11.989 --> 00:34:13.449 you know what, the first thing we need to do 00:34:13.449 --> 00:34:15.030 is we need to get an economic infrastructure. 00:34:16.539 --> 00:34:19.059 So what he said was anybody who comes into the 00:34:19.059 --> 00:34:22.380 area to develop or to bring their business here 00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:25.400 or whatever, we'll let y 'all come in tax -free, 00:34:25.539 --> 00:34:28.400 right? So all these places ended up coming into 00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:32.639 Durham. But what he, I guess, had hoped was that 00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:34.719 they were going to train and hire Durham people 00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:37.400 to get those jobs, and they didn't. They just 00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:40.079 brought the people from New York, Seattle, wherever, 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:43.050 where they already paid way more in rent. Brought 00:34:43.050 --> 00:34:44.429 them in here and was like, look, now you got 00:34:44.429 --> 00:34:46.510 rent for $800 a month, but two bedroom, right? 00:34:46.690 --> 00:34:49.829 So all these people came in. On top of that, 00:34:49.929 --> 00:34:51.949 you've got two universities that are growing 00:34:51.949 --> 00:34:54.349 and expanding and bringing students from all 00:34:54.349 --> 00:34:57.090 over the nation. And students got student loans 00:34:57.090 --> 00:34:59.030 and all that stuff so they can use that money 00:34:59.030 --> 00:35:01.789 to finance their lifestyle while they're in school. 00:35:03.179 --> 00:35:05.679 All these things happen and all these people 00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:07.559 come in injecting more and more money, but the 00:35:07.559 --> 00:35:10.639 city's not getting a taste of that money. So 00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.860 the people from the city who are like, hey, when 00:35:12.860 --> 00:35:16.000 can we get this? And the city's like, well, we 00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:19.880 got it right now. Just hold on. So I think that's 00:35:19.880 --> 00:35:22.579 the frustration. And like, especially with me, 00:35:22.579 --> 00:35:24.679 when I go to the barbershop, we have these conversations 00:35:24.679 --> 00:35:27.820 all the time. If you were somebody who's like 00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:31.969 mom and dad worked at Duke, you look. But if 00:35:31.969 --> 00:35:33.809 you're somebody whose family didn't work at Duke, 00:35:33.889 --> 00:35:36.010 you hate Duke because everything got expensive. 00:35:36.710 --> 00:35:40.570 On top of that, I feel like there's a positive 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:42.590 and negative correlation to Duke and Durham. 00:35:43.210 --> 00:35:47.090 So the negative is if Duke really wanted to, 00:35:47.289 --> 00:35:49.670 they could just come out here and open the pocketbook 00:35:49.670 --> 00:35:51.929 and be like, all right, it's now the city of 00:35:51.929 --> 00:35:54.469 Duke. You know what I'm saying? That's pretty 00:35:54.469 --> 00:35:57.949 much what they could do. They have been selective 00:35:57.949 --> 00:36:01.230 in some situations about scaling back from doing 00:36:01.230 --> 00:36:05.150 that, right? But at the same time, the negatives 00:36:05.150 --> 00:36:07.389 are that you still do, right? Like, it doesn't 00:36:07.389 --> 00:36:09.630 matter. Like, you're here. You're bringing people 00:36:09.630 --> 00:36:12.449 with way more money here. You're driving up costs. 00:36:12.710 --> 00:36:14.789 You're bringing students. You're driving up costs. 00:36:14.909 --> 00:36:18.769 And more so, people who are associated with the 00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:21.710 Duke atmosphere aren't really receptive to the 00:36:21.710 --> 00:36:25.110 community that surrounds them. Duke, right? Because 00:36:25.110 --> 00:36:27.469 Durham has a rich history independent of Duke, 00:36:27.570 --> 00:36:31.769 right? So I think that causes a lot of friction 00:36:31.769 --> 00:36:34.949 that Duke and members of the community, like 00:36:34.949 --> 00:36:36.429 stakeholders in the community, have been trying 00:36:36.429 --> 00:36:40.530 to iron out for years. Every now and then, it 00:36:40.530 --> 00:36:42.550 seems like once we get four steps forward, there's 00:36:42.550 --> 00:36:44.889 five steps back when things like the Light Rail 00:36:44.889 --> 00:36:49.650 Project, stuff like that gets beat up by Duke. 00:36:50.750 --> 00:36:54.820 But I think We've also seen Duke expand and be 00:36:54.820 --> 00:36:57.179 able to create jobs for people in the community, 00:36:57.300 --> 00:37:00.139 be able to demand certain housing, be able to 00:37:00.139 --> 00:37:02.699 bring in certain businesses and startups and 00:37:02.699 --> 00:37:05.480 all that stuff that hire from people in the community. 00:37:05.699 --> 00:37:07.880 So the issue now is we're just trying to catch 00:37:07.880 --> 00:37:09.579 up. We're trying to get to a point where folks 00:37:09.579 --> 00:37:12.099 will want to invest in the community, but invest 00:37:12.099 --> 00:37:14.719 more so just in building a building and saying, 00:37:14.820 --> 00:37:18.219 OK, invest in training. the people who are already 00:37:18.219 --> 00:37:21.260 here to be able to take these jobs that are higher 00:37:21.260 --> 00:37:24.699 paying and to stabilize our society so that everybody 00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:28.099 can feel included. And I have varying degrees 00:37:28.099 --> 00:37:30.280 of success on that, right? I don't know that 00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:32.360 we'll necessarily get there in a short amount 00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:35.539 of time. And I think there's also some state 00:37:35.539 --> 00:37:38.019 interplay there because whenever Durham starts 00:37:38.019 --> 00:37:40.300 being really, really progressive and moving forward, 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:42.239 the state always slaps our hand to make sure 00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:48.610 we are reminded that we are not in charge. You 00:37:48.610 --> 00:37:53.449 know, I think that we we've made strides to get 00:37:53.449 --> 00:37:56.269 back to where we are now, but we've got a long 00:37:56.269 --> 00:38:00.110 way to go to be where we need to be. Right. And, 00:38:00.210 --> 00:38:04.050 you know, considering both of us worked at Duke 00:38:04.050 --> 00:38:07.170 and we're from the triangle, you know, I will 00:38:07.170 --> 00:38:09.409 jump in there and just say, you know, I've had 00:38:09.409 --> 00:38:14.940 some opinions, you know, about. not just Duke, 00:38:14.980 --> 00:38:19.119 but other large stakeholders in the triangle, 00:38:19.260 --> 00:38:21.960 specifically Durham County, that are not what 00:38:21.960 --> 00:38:24.840 I consider calling their fair share either. And 00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:28.739 Duke is just a very convenient target for people. 00:38:28.980 --> 00:38:32.360 And I'm not saying that they don't have a responsibility. 00:38:32.820 --> 00:38:38.739 I'm just saying, let's not be fooled. into thinking 00:38:38.739 --> 00:38:41.579 that they're the only ones. And let's also not 00:38:41.579 --> 00:38:45.380 let our elected officials and city and county 00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:49.219 government off the hook for enforcing certain 00:38:49.219 --> 00:38:53.500 economic policies that would make it less of 00:38:53.500 --> 00:38:58.940 a choice and more of a requirement and utilizing 00:38:58.940 --> 00:39:04.090 the different levers of investment back into 00:39:04.090 --> 00:39:06.730 the community that only the city and county can 00:39:06.730 --> 00:39:09.809 require. Thank you for joining us on Questions 00:39:09.809 --> 00:39:13.389 You Didn't Ask with me, Nyesha Frey, and my guest, 00:39:13.590 --> 00:39:16.690 Jesse McCoy. Tune in next week as we continue 00:39:16.690 --> 00:39:21.130 our series, Justice or Just Us? How Law, Health, 00:39:21.269 --> 00:39:23.329 and Equity Collide in America.