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As this series airs, I have a real sense of genuine
disappointment about who's been elected as president,
relief for the newly elected governor of North
Carolina, my home state, and mixed feelings about
other down -ballot officials who shape our daily
lives and impact our future. Regardless of the
various election outcomes, the need to push forward
on health equity, social justice, and basic human
rights. remains critical. No matter who lost,
we must continue standing up, speaking out, and
working together to ensure that everyone, especially
those on the margins, has a true opportunity
to thrive. Free and fair elections are essential,
but they're only part of what it takes to shape
lives meaningfully for ourselves and future generations.
This series Questions You Didn't Ask, Justice
or Just Us? How Law, Health, and Equity Collide
in America. Explores how our legal and criminal
justice systems determine who gets access to
health and well -being and who does not. But
first, let's start with some foundational civics
that explain how power is structured in the United
States. According to the United States government's
design, every level of government, federal, state,
and county, follows a three -branch system, executive,
legislative, and judicial. At the federal level,
the executive branch, led by the president, enforces
laws. Congress, the legislative branch, makes
the laws. And the judicial branch, led by the
Supreme Court, interprets them. States mirror
this structure, but each state's specific powers
and processes can vary. Under the 10th Amendment,
states hold all powers, not specifically delegated
to the federal government. With 50 states across
the nation, this creates substantial variation,
including differences in governors' powers and
legislative structures. Locally, county governments
shape public health. law enforcement, and infrastructure
services, significantly influencing our access
to health and wellness based on state laws. As
we dive into this series, we'll closely examine
the Just Us system and how it impacts who has
access to health and well -being and who's left
out. Following the Civil War, Southern states
used the legal system to maintain racial control,
enforcing Black codes and Jim Crow laws that
criminalized Black life and funneled individuals
into a new system of forced labor. The 13th Amendment
abolished slavery, but allowed an exception for
those duly convicted of a crime, creating what
historians called a new slavery through incarceration.
Today, Black and Hispanic people continue to
bear the brunt of these structural inequities.
Black Americans are imprisoned at more than five
times the rate of white Americans, and Hispanic
individuals are incarcerated at nearly double
the rate of whites. This comes from the NAACP
criminal justice fact sheet. Black and Hispanic
men face harsher sentences than their white counterparts,
even for identical crimes. which reinforces a
legacy of racial control. This is from the Sentencing
Project, 2024 Report on Racial Disparities. Meanwhile,
wealthy white individuals often encounter the
legal system under starkly different conditions,
with less likelihood of arrest and lighter sentences.
This disparity was highlighted again recently
by newly elected, re -elected, President Donald
Trump's criminal cases. For the first 234 years
of the nation's history, no American president
or former president had ever been indicted. That
changed in 2023 when Trump was charged in four
separate criminal cases within five months. The
charges cover a wide range of conduct before,
during, and after his presidency. As of August
2024, one of these indictments has led to a conviction,
while three remain pending. This comes from Politico,
tracking the Trump criminal cases. Watching a
recently re -elected president campaign for public
office despite these charges highlights how privilege
operates in plain sight. underscoring the stark
inequities that inspired this series. Throughout
this series, we'll dig deeper into how this Just
Us system impacts health and wellness for specific
communities, especially regarding the social
determinants of health. Social determinants like
quality housing, access to education, stable
employment, and comprehensive health care are
all interconnected. and critically influence
who ends up most affected by the legal system.
Structural barriers in these areas disproportionately
affect people of color and low -income communities,
often confining their chances for a healthy and
stable life to factors beyond their control.
This series is my way of examining the raw data
and revealing the forces that make these disparities
possible. The just us system doesn't just dictate
criminal outcomes. It's a determinant of health
and well -being in this country. Join me as we
unpack these systemic injustices and explore
real solutions. Let's dig into the power of advocacy
and policy change to turn this system around.
Stick with us. This will be a journey worth taking.
I'm so excited to introduce our next guest for
this special series, Jesse Hamilton McCoy. Jesse
Hamilton McCoy is clinical professor of law and
supervising attorney for the Duke Law Civil Justice
Clinic. In that capacity, he teaches a seminar
course. mentors students in developing and improving
basic civil litigation skills, and oversees their
handling of cases for indigent clients who are
often unable to obtain adequate representation
in the traditional civil justice system through
the clinic's partnership with Legal Aid of North
Carolina. A Durham native, McCoy operated a boutique
solo practice in Raleigh for four years before
becoming a legal aid of North Carolina staff
attorney in the agency's Winston -Salem and Durham
offices. He has litigated cases in a variety
of practice areas, including criminal defense,
personal injury, public housing evictions, and
voucher terminations, landlord -tenant matters,
and foreclosure defense. McCoy has also served
as an advocate for victims of domestic violence
in Wake, Durham, Granville, Vance, and Forsyth
counties, and has taught at both the North Carolina
Central University, Go Eagles, and Wake Forest
University Schools of Law. Jesse McCoy, who joined
the Duke Law faculty full -time in 2017, received
his Bachelor of Arts from the great Florida A
&M University in 2005. Strike, strike, and yes,
strike again. And his JD from North Carolina
Central University School of Law in 2008. He
moonlights as a fiction writer and to date has
published two novels, A Family Saga, book one,
Sundiata, and Black's Law, The Hellmaker. He
also enjoys watching professional football with
his wife and child. and cheering for the Carolina
Panthers. I am so excited to start this conversation
and just get right into it and especially proud
to have my fellow Rattler here with us and my
fellow North Carolinian. From the triangle, might
I add, I'm a Raleigh girl and he's a Durham guy.
And we're going to make this conversation do
what it do. But before we get deep into the topic
today, can you tell my audience why you decided
to join me in this conversation on questions
you didn't ask? What motivated you to say yes?
Well, first of all, anytime that a fellow Rattler
asks me to do anything, I'm going to be there,
let alone a Rattler in North Carolina. So that's
that's the one thing. The other thing is, I think
we've been blessed to have a professional relationship
pretty much most of the time that I've been working
at Duke. And so I've seen all of the amazing
things that you've been working on. And I always
want to be a part of something that's positive
and that's helping the community. So here I am.
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. So, you
know, I've just read your bio for the audience
and I just want to also give them a chance to
hear from you. Why did you decide to become a
lawyer? So this is a very, very interesting and
kind of long story. But initially, when I was
in high school, you didn't really see a lot of
people who practiced law. I was fortunate to
be in a health care partnership program that
would take kids from the inner city and pair
them with doctors. And I met along the way a
doctor, African -American doctor, who's a general
surgeon at UNC. So I just thought, oh, I want
to do that. Right. Problem is that I didn't know
anything about chemistry. I didn't have a lot
of resources for sciences in my area. I just
knew that he had a nice house, nice family, nice
car. And that's what I wanted. So I set off initially
trying to do the science route, trying to do
the chemistry route, and learned very quickly
my freshman year at Florida A &M. Chemistry for
me. My grades were like not good. There's there's
there's borderline and then there's not good.
And I was at the not good place. I was the same
way with chemistry, by the way. It's not my friend.
They don't do favors for you because they want
to know that six in the morning for chemistry
orientation. That wasn't for me. So anyways,
I now my freshman year have this crisis where
I'm trying to figure out, well, what else am
I good at? One of the things that I remember
from high school was, you know, being harassed
by police. Most people have had this situation
where if you live in certain communities, police
just want to kind of prey on those communities
to make it seem like everybody there is predatory.
They accuse you of things you didn't do, all
that stuff. And I remember one particular incident.
When the police officers accused me and my guy
brother of throwing rocks at people, something
they knew we didn't do. Hands were full of groceries,
but nonetheless. And I remember in that moment
the embarrassment I felt because I wasn't able
to vocalize anything. It was the power dynamic
that was just off. And I said to myself, I want
to be somebody in that moment who can make police
officers feel like I feel right now. So when
I got to FAMU and I realized that I wasn't going
to be a doctor, I happened to be walking on campus
and they had this thing called Law Day. And Law
Day, for those who don't know, is a day where
all of these ABA accredited schools, law schools,
come to Florida A &M every October. And they're
trying to recruit students from Florida A &M
to come to their law school. So I went to Law
Day. It's a huge law school fair. And as I was
walking through Law Day, the first sign I saw
was somebody there from Duke University. And
I'll shout him out, Dennis Shields, who was the
dean of admissions for the law school at the
time. And freshman year, made a relationship
with him. He met him. I told him I was interested.
He asked me where I was from. I told him I was
from Durham, North Carolina. He said, oh, great.
You know, here's what you got to do. And from
that year forward, every year I would come back
to see and check up with, you know, Dennis Shields
and find out where I'm at in the process and
what I need to do for this year and all that
stuff. So I do that for several years. And then
finally, game time, you're supposed to be doing
your LSAT, which is the test you take to go to
law school and getting everything ready. One
of the issues is I was a broke college student.
And when I say broke college student, that means
that there's not going to be financial support
from a parental unit that's going to be helping
me. You on your own, right? Right. So, you know,
between working and all this stuff, I was trying
to figure out, okay, I can take the LSAT, but
this is an expensive test. The application is
expensive. The process is expensive. How do I
navigate this? Florida A &M helped me again because
they had a graduate studies department that would
pay for you to do one class. So I did a Princeton
Review class for the LSAT. Up until that point,
I had been just, you know, I'm old school. I
go to the library, get a resource book, copy
the pages, do and take practice tests on my own.
It was doing pretty well, but it made me feel
inferior because the Princeton Review LSAT prep
class seemed like it was so much more comprehensive.
And so I tricked myself into trying to learn
the Princeton Review way. And I think that ended
up backfiring on me. So I got that free LSAT
from FAMU. I took it and I did horrible. Wow.
Don't believe the hype. Horrible. Don't believe
the hype. The LSAT is a 129. I think I got a
131. Wow. It was horrible. I took the LSAT in
a hotel. The Doubletree Hotel in Tallahassee,
Florida, that was under construction. Wow. So
on top of not being confident, I'm hearing jackhammers
like every 10 minutes, whatever. So I did horrible.
Well, anyways, I go to Lauday, my senior year,
and I'm like, hey, buddy, I did what you told
me to do. I'm ready to go to Duke. What's up?
He saw my L -sign. I'm like, no, sir. This is
not going to get you into Duke. You need to take
it again. Well, I'm broke. I can't afford to
take it again. So I'm thinking law school dreams
is gone. I got to figure out something else.
Maybe they'll hire me to be a greeter at Walmart
or something. I throw everything, you know, in
the trash. I storm out of law day. I'm walking
through campus. There's a lady who is giving
her daughter a tour of Florida A &M because her
daughter is interested and they look lost. So
I stopped to ask, can I be of service to them?
She was like, oh, sure. So they wanted to find
where Foot Hillier was. I'm taking them on the
tour. Lady says, I saw you coming out of law
day. Do you want to be an attorney? And I said,
well, I wanted to be an attorney. I was hoping
I could do it. She said, interesting. Where are
you from? I said, well, I'm from Durham, North
Carolina. And she said, hmm, have you ever heard
of North Carolina Central University? Of course
I've heard of North Carolina Central. She was
like, would you go to North Carolina Central
University School of Law? I said, I will go to
any law school that's willing to take me. And
so she said, do this. All the stuff that you
just gave, you were just giving to the other
person. Bring it to me. Right. And this is a
time, you know, back then they still had Social
Security numbers on stuff. This is the biggest
scam in the world. She would have got me for
everything. But I just ran back and got all my
stuff. gave it to her, not knowing her name,
not knowing her from Adam or anything. And she
was like, I'll see what I can do, right? Two
weeks later, I get an acceptance letter to North
Carolina Central University School of Law, right?
So fast forward that August, I moved back from
Florida to North Carolina. My first week, I go,
my first day, I go to try to figure out who was
this lady, right? Who was she? And come to find
out she was the outgoing Dean of Finance for
the law school. Wow. But for the fact that I
was just nice in the moment, you know, God be
blessed. Yeah. Be obedient. Yeah. But for the
fact I was I was in the moment helping her and
she had already seen me storm out, you know,
whatever, not on my best behavior because of
that. She, you know, looked out for me and I
got into law school. So I'm running to her office.
I'm thanking her all this stuff. Like, you know,
thank you so much for giving me this, giving
me that. And she was like, hold on. I didn't
give you nothing. Now you got to earn it. Right.
And you go do something with it. So I went in.
I said, OK, game on. It's time to compete. Went
to law school, competed, wasn't the best student,
posted child for academic support. But the one
thing that my law school professors will always
say is he was not going to be deterred. Right.
Right. I may not know, but I will set a meeting
up with every professor every week. And go over
my notes, go over my outlines, go over my flashcards,
go over whatever. Then I go to academic support,
go through all of their helpful aids in order
to try to figure it out. And I crept by, right?
I crept by. I kept going. So what I didn't realize
until now is that, one, it built a work ethic
that I guess a lot of people don't really see.
And number two, it built a sense of camaraderie
with the professors to know, hey, we want this
guy to do well because he is. working hard like
he wants to do it and that propelled me to the
point where i finished my first year finished
my second year and then in the third year because
i practically lived at the law school um the
the student body made me the student bar association
president for the university school of law We
did a whole bunch of like national activism.
If you remember the Gina Six, we took classes
of students, law students down to Gina, Louisiana
to be part of that event and help free Michael
Bell. And people still talk about that stuff
to this day. And we did a whole bunch of, you
know, civil rights focused impact work. So that's
kind of. the credit and testament to the power
of the law school and one of the things that
i hope my legacy was for that law school was
helping to reconnect because i think somewhere
along the way we lost our way and started focusing
on like trying to use laws of pivot to get to
money as opposed to using law as a pivot to help
advocate for people in our community. And me,
I'm never going to be the person that's going
to go get money at the corporate level. They're
not going to want me, right? But because of that,
I'm always going to be a man of the people. And
I was like, if I'm going to be in a leadership
position, we're going to reallocate and rededicate
our focus to helping out the people. And that's
pretty much explained my career ever since. Passed
the bar in 2008 when there was no jobs, hung
the shingle, did criminal defense, personal injury,
small business formation, whatever the community
needed. Music law. And it ultimately ended up
going to the nonprofit sector and worked for
Legal Aid for about four years doing domestic
violence victims advocacy work, expungement relief.
foreclosure defense, basically whatever they
would throw on the table, I would do and really
found my niche in the area of housing law. And
I've been in housing law ever since. So now while
I was doing that, I was also teaching along the
way at Central, then at Wake Forest, and now
at Duke. So it's been a very interesting career,
not one that I had. set my intentions or my pathway
on doing. But, you know, God be blessing you.
Just doors open up, opportunities open up, and
I'm not afraid to walk through them. I'm never
anything less than confident to walk through
them because I feel like what's for you is for
you. Amen. If you're enjoying the show as much
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from questions you didn't ask. Thank you. for
your continued support and let's keep the conversation
going. Amen. I'm telling you, this is about being
obedient. This is also about the power of why
we go so hard for our HBCUs and why we love them
so much, man. I mean, if this isn't a Testament
and I know. people, so many people, including
myself, that have stories just like that about
how an HBCU stepped in in some type of way and
literally changed the course of their life. Just
by giving them a chance, not because they were
perfect, not because they had all their ducks
in a row, but because they gave them a chance.
And we and those who thrive in that environment
are those who recognize that this is a once in
a lifetime opportunity. Take all advantage of
all of the nurturing and the opportunities that
are there and maximize it. Right. And and fly.
Right. And so I am so proud to have you on my
podcast today. I'm always proud to see all. the
amazing work that you're doing. And I'm always
trying my best to let you know, because I feel
like it's important for us to let our brothers
and sisters know you're doing a great job and
I appreciate it. Oh, thank you. So even though
I've shared your impressive bio and you've given
your own story, your own words with our audience,
are there any major wins in your career that
you have accomplished or you're working towards
right now that you'd like to share with our audience?
I mean, so I'm of the belief that there's no
such thing as a small case. So major wins for
me in anything where my client leaves happier
and in a better position than when they came
to me. And because most of my work has been focused
on the people, those wins are not always easy
to come by, right? One of the big things that
people kind of know me for now is in the world
of housing. I really do a lot to prosecute landlords
for substandard housing conditions. A lot of
people are complaining about things like bed
bug infestation, roach infestation, rat infestation.
And landlords will take advantage and not necessarily
fix it, but still be wanting to charge you top
dollar for rent. And so, you know, what I've
been able to do is get landlords to do wide scale
repair work in the hopes of avoiding getting
a money judgment that's going to bankrupt them.
You know, been able to encourage that. We've
also been able to encourage the community just
to empower tenants in the community to learn
more about things like the shift from being a
tenant to being a homeowner, empowering tenants
to understand, like, you know, just because you're
a tenant and you're in a lease. That lease has
a two way agreement. It's not just one time.
So helping people understand those things. Before
I was in the world of housing law and taking
on housing authorities and all that stuff, I
was doing criminal defense work. So a lot of
people who on their worst day would happen or
get caught up in something that they had nothing
to do with. Helping to be able to advocate for
them to avoid. harsh punitive issues that would
happen or putting them into, you know, the carceral
state, all that stuff, you know, and just empower
people. I think the law itself can be very intimidating,
but it's designed to be intimidating by, you
know. for a reason. And the system works the
way that the engineers designed it to work. So
when we see disproportionality as far as who's
being evicted, disproportionality as far as who's
being arrested, disproportionality as far as
who doesn't have access to the resources, it
works the way that it was designed to work. So
there needs to be more people who are on the
side of the populace and particularly our community
to advocate and seek the changes that we want.
Exactly. I love it. I love it. That's getting
us into my next question. You are leading us
exactly where I want us to go in this conversation.
I'm going to ask you, in your opinion, what are
some of the common experiences that make people
vulnerable? to fall in prey to the criminal justice
system or being incarcerated. And you talked
about, you know, what it was like growing up
as a young man in Durham. You talked about being
a criminal defense attorney. And you also talked
about the architecture of the system and the
engineering of the system and its intentionality.
So can you share a little bit more about what
are some of the things that kind of make people
vulnerable to the system? All right. So it's
going to be. A lot of levels to this, concentric
circles, right? Level number one, crime happens
in everybody's community. It's not just one community
and not another. Everybody's community. But the
thing about the carceral state is arrests and
convictions happen where the police look. Right.
So if you don't look at the areas that are by
UNC and Duke, but you look at the areas that
are by Central and you find crime, I mean, that's
how these things work. Right. The other part
of that, that's the systemic part. The other
piece of this, though, is we have a rich history
of divestment from black enterprise. And what
I mean by that is. There's a history of redlining,
predatory lending, vagrancy laws, racialized
covenants, so many things that have been essentially
boot prints on the Black community to stop our
advancement and growth that it becomes very difficult
for us to find ways to ascend to the middle class,
right? So it used to be that the way that you
ascend to the middle class is if you work hard
in a factory. You wouldn't own the factory. But
if you get that factory 15, 20 years of your
life, you get a pension and they take care of
you for the rest of it. Right. But then in the
80s and 90s, those factors is like, oh, we can
find machines and computers to do it. We don't
need you no more. So everybody gets tossed out
at the same time that, you know, I ain't going
to say the president's name, but somebody was.
agreeing with other countries to bring crack
into your neighborhood, right? Well, it is a
fact. I mean, we know in the 80s and 90s, you
know, who was in power. So, I mean, no secret.
Go ahead. So, I've always viewed that scenario
because, you know, I was in Vance County when
that whole thing hit. And I saw people go from,
yeah, three factories in Vance County, two of
them closing the same week, right? So people
go from being like, you know, responsible, community
oriented, factory people. I got to get mine.
Right. I got to get mine. And when that scarcity
mentality kicks in in the community, the only
way that you don't get it is to take for somebody
else who's already in the community. Right. So
there's that. A lot of the things that we project
as criminality are. pieces of legislation that
were designed for the express purpose of ensnaring
our community. And why, you may be asking, do
they want to do that? Well, because the way the
13th Amendment works is you are only free unless
you are convicted of a felony. And then you got
to do hard labor for the state, right? And the
state can send you out to do anything from road
cleanup to picking cotton. They can do whatever
they want, right? So the first thing is to understand
that They're always going to leave like tidbits
of Easter eggs that they want you to grab so
that they can catch you. Right. Well, you have
to be three times smarter than the system, which
is not fair. It's not right. But it's the reality.
You have to understand everybody's always looking
at you. They wait on you to mess up. They want
you to add to their statistics so that you can
support whatever their tough on crime agenda
is going to be or whatever the case may be. And
they don't believe in rehabilitation. Right.
So they think once you get this negative record,
that that's who you always are. Whereas people
who are in the community know we got folks that
preach at the church that used to be in these
streets. Right. Amen. So it's we're not one thing,
but it's very hard, you know, especially me,
because I'll say now I'm at a point of privilege
where I can say if there's something that I want,
I have financial resources to get it. But not
everybody is in that boat. And when everybody's
not in that boat, sometimes it's very difficult
to look at things like basic necessities that
you can't attain and say, all right, well, we
have to just rely on something bigger than us
to make do. Right. Very difficult. And it might
be cool on Monday and Tuesday, but by Friday,
you're going to be hungry. Right. And I can't
be mad at anybody trying to get what they got
to get to feed their kids or feed their family.
Or themselves. Or themselves. Right. So those
are like the. I won't say noble, but those are
like the reasons why a lot of people get in.
Now, there's also this kind of new generation
of people who do things for image. Right. And
those are the people that scare me. So there
are Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. Exactly. There
are young people who want folks to believe an
image of who they are. Maybe because of the people
that they hold in high esteem as heroes, like
folks who are, you know, rappers and gangsters
and TV show personalities or whatever, who they
want to be like. But I don't think they understand
that all of those things are creatures of fiction,
right? Hollywood. Right. So people on the TV
show selling drugs don't really sell the drugs
and they don't deal with the consequences that
happen if you get caught up in that. And even
the stories that they claim to be based on fact.
there is some fact and then there's a whole lot
of fiction that gets filled in around it. Absolutely.
Which is another part of this, like I said, there's
layers to this. Another part of that is that
criminality is marketed to our community disproportionately.
You don't hear them marketing that stuff to the
rock and roll community or whatever the case
may be. And they do it too. The reason being
is because they want us to aspire to do that.
Right. And on top of that, they feel like they're
killing multiple birds with one stone. What folks
haven't appreciated is that when your area, me
being from Durham, I've seen this firsthand.
When your city is deemed to be infested with
crime. Right. That drives all your property value
down. So people with the money come in and they
buy your city from under you and then they build
the city that they want to have and push everybody
out with gentrification. Right. So the thing
about it is, if you decide that you're going
to engage in criminal activity, you are actually
doing multiple detriments to your own community,
not just driving the property value down, not
just harming the people who are around you, not
just harming yourself and your own future prospects.
But you are actually doing all these things.
And somebody is going to write a story about
you and make it a rap song. So so it's it's a
lot of exploitation, which is kind of. in the
vein of American society since before our establishment.
Like we know who gets exploited to make the goods
and services and build the buildings and get
the food and all that stuff in order to support
and sustain the economy. So half of my message
to young people is don't feed yourself to the
wolf being stupid, right? These days we got so
many people and, you know, I started off by saying
that I didn't see a lot of attorneys. in Durham
when I was young. That's not to say they weren't
there. They just didn't come to our neighborhood.
So what do I do? I go to the neighborhood, right?
I need you to see me, right? Know that this is
possible. Let me tell you about these programs
and plans and things you can do now that will
prepare you. Also, people got way more resources
nowadays than we had. I remember when Tandy Computers
came out. And folks were like, wow, what's a
computer, right? Right. Now people got computers
in their pockets. Right. They got these, right.
So the fact that somebody can see you with a
straight face and tell me they don't know something
and you got a smartphone, I'm like, who made
you? Right. Thank you for joining us on Questions
You Didn't Ask with me, Naisha Frey, and my guest,
Jesse McCoy. Tune in next week as we continue
our series, Justice or Just Us. How Law, Health,
and Equity Collide in America.