WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Hey y 'all, welcome to Questions You Didn't Ask. 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.179 Did you know that this very spot could be showcasing 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.320 your business or event? Whether it's an audio 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.460 ad on our podcast, or a visual ad on our new 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:18.100 YouTube station, or even both, we've got the 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.620 space for you. Nyesha Frey Consulting is reaching 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.420 a growing audience of over a thousand leaders 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.839 who are passionate about health equity, social 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:32.070 justice, and civil rights activism. These are 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.329 professionals just like you working across higher 00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:40.409 education, research, healthcare, nonprofit, government, 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:44.030 and even public health sectors. If you're ready 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.630 to get your message in front of a dedicated and 00:00:46.630 --> 00:00:52.469 engaged audience, send me an email at naishafrayconsultingllc 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:57.149 at gmail .com. Let's talk about how we can help 00:00:57.149 --> 00:00:59.710 you connect with the people who need to hear 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:02.829 about your services and products that advance 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:06.969 health equity and wellness. Don't miss out. Get 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.269 in the mix and let's make an impact together. 00:01:24.670 --> 00:01:30.180 As this series airs, I have a real sense of genuine 00:01:30.180 --> 00:01:33.980 disappointment about who's been elected as president, 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:37.480 relief for the newly elected governor of North 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:41.340 Carolina, my home state, and mixed feelings about 00:01:41.340 --> 00:01:43.980 other down -ballot officials who shape our daily 00:01:43.980 --> 00:01:47.939 lives and impact our future. Regardless of the 00:01:47.939 --> 00:01:51.359 various election outcomes, the need to push forward 00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.640 on health equity, social justice, and basic human 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:59.739 rights. remains critical. No matter who lost, 00:02:00.019 --> 00:02:04.739 we must continue standing up, speaking out, and 00:02:04.739 --> 00:02:07.859 working together to ensure that everyone, especially 00:02:07.859 --> 00:02:10.800 those on the margins, has a true opportunity 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.539 to thrive. Free and fair elections are essential, 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:18.939 but they're only part of what it takes to shape 00:02:18.939 --> 00:02:23.000 lives meaningfully for ourselves and future generations. 00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:27.430 This series Questions You Didn't Ask, Justice 00:02:27.430 --> 00:02:32.870 or Just Us? How Law, Health, and Equity Collide 00:02:32.870 --> 00:02:37.330 in America. Explores how our legal and criminal 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:40.849 justice systems determine who gets access to 00:02:40.849 --> 00:02:43.810 health and well -being and who does not. But 00:02:43.810 --> 00:02:47.310 first, let's start with some foundational civics 00:02:47.310 --> 00:02:50.430 that explain how power is structured in the United 00:02:50.430 --> 00:02:54.229 States. According to the United States government's 00:02:54.229 --> 00:02:57.810 design, every level of government, federal, state, 00:02:58.030 --> 00:03:02.150 and county, follows a three -branch system, executive, 00:03:02.469 --> 00:03:06.189 legislative, and judicial. At the federal level, 00:03:06.330 --> 00:03:10.229 the executive branch, led by the president, enforces 00:03:10.229 --> 00:03:14.610 laws. Congress, the legislative branch, makes 00:03:14.610 --> 00:03:19.050 the laws. And the judicial branch, led by the 00:03:19.050 --> 00:03:23.050 Supreme Court, interprets them. States mirror 00:03:23.050 --> 00:03:26.650 this structure, but each state's specific powers 00:03:26.650 --> 00:03:31.050 and processes can vary. Under the 10th Amendment, 00:03:31.550 --> 00:03:36.030 states hold all powers, not specifically delegated 00:03:36.030 --> 00:03:39.129 to the federal government. With 50 states across 00:03:39.129 --> 00:03:41.569 the nation, this creates substantial variation, 00:03:41.990 --> 00:03:45.569 including differences in governors' powers and 00:03:45.569 --> 00:03:49.330 legislative structures. Locally, county governments 00:03:49.330 --> 00:03:53.090 shape public health. law enforcement, and infrastructure 00:03:53.090 --> 00:03:56.930 services, significantly influencing our access 00:03:56.930 --> 00:04:01.129 to health and wellness based on state laws. As 00:04:01.129 --> 00:04:04.110 we dive into this series, we'll closely examine 00:04:04.110 --> 00:04:09.590 the Just Us system and how it impacts who has 00:04:09.590 --> 00:04:12.469 access to health and well -being and who's left 00:04:12.469 --> 00:04:16.279 out. Following the Civil War, Southern states 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:19.120 used the legal system to maintain racial control, 00:04:19.420 --> 00:04:22.680 enforcing Black codes and Jim Crow laws that 00:04:22.680 --> 00:04:25.720 criminalized Black life and funneled individuals 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:30.160 into a new system of forced labor. The 13th Amendment 00:04:30.160 --> 00:04:34.540 abolished slavery, but allowed an exception for 00:04:34.540 --> 00:04:38.220 those duly convicted of a crime, creating what 00:04:38.220 --> 00:04:41.680 historians called a new slavery through incarceration. 00:04:43.149 --> 00:04:46.110 Today, Black and Hispanic people continue to 00:04:46.110 --> 00:04:48.629 bear the brunt of these structural inequities. 00:04:49.029 --> 00:04:52.170 Black Americans are imprisoned at more than five 00:04:52.170 --> 00:04:55.569 times the rate of white Americans, and Hispanic 00:04:55.569 --> 00:04:58.769 individuals are incarcerated at nearly double 00:04:58.769 --> 00:05:03.110 the rate of whites. This comes from the NAACP 00:05:03.110 --> 00:05:06.709 criminal justice fact sheet. Black and Hispanic 00:05:06.709 --> 00:05:09.769 men face harsher sentences than their white counterparts, 00:05:10.089 --> 00:05:13.660 even for identical crimes. which reinforces a 00:05:13.660 --> 00:05:18.399 legacy of racial control. This is from the Sentencing 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:24.600 Project, 2024 Report on Racial Disparities. Meanwhile, 00:05:24.759 --> 00:05:28.120 wealthy white individuals often encounter the 00:05:28.120 --> 00:05:31.000 legal system under starkly different conditions, 00:05:31.139 --> 00:05:34.360 with less likelihood of arrest and lighter sentences. 00:05:35.220 --> 00:05:38.879 This disparity was highlighted again recently 00:05:38.879 --> 00:05:42.939 by newly elected, re -elected, President Donald 00:05:42.939 --> 00:05:47.720 Trump's criminal cases. For the first 234 years 00:05:47.720 --> 00:05:51.019 of the nation's history, no American president 00:05:51.019 --> 00:05:54.959 or former president had ever been indicted. That 00:05:54.959 --> 00:05:58.379 changed in 2023 when Trump was charged in four 00:05:58.379 --> 00:06:02.620 separate criminal cases within five months. The 00:06:02.620 --> 00:06:05.800 charges cover a wide range of conduct before, 00:06:05.939 --> 00:06:09.839 during, and after his presidency. As of August 00:06:09.839 --> 00:06:13.839 2024, one of these indictments has led to a conviction, 00:06:14.019 --> 00:06:18.680 while three remain pending. This comes from Politico, 00:06:18.819 --> 00:06:23.779 tracking the Trump criminal cases. Watching a 00:06:23.779 --> 00:06:29.000 recently re -elected president campaign for public 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:33.040 office despite these charges highlights how privilege 00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:37.089 operates in plain sight. underscoring the stark 00:06:37.089 --> 00:06:41.829 inequities that inspired this series. Throughout 00:06:41.829 --> 00:06:44.689 this series, we'll dig deeper into how this Just 00:06:44.689 --> 00:06:48.269 Us system impacts health and wellness for specific 00:06:48.269 --> 00:06:50.930 communities, especially regarding the social 00:06:50.930 --> 00:06:53.970 determinants of health. Social determinants like 00:06:53.970 --> 00:06:57.250 quality housing, access to education, stable 00:06:57.250 --> 00:07:00.449 employment, and comprehensive health care are 00:07:00.449 --> 00:07:03.540 all interconnected. and critically influence 00:07:03.540 --> 00:07:06.660 who ends up most affected by the legal system. 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:10.000 Structural barriers in these areas disproportionately 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:13.540 affect people of color and low -income communities, 00:07:13.860 --> 00:07:17.120 often confining their chances for a healthy and 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:19.879 stable life to factors beyond their control. 00:07:21.259 --> 00:07:25.000 This series is my way of examining the raw data 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.740 and revealing the forces that make these disparities 00:07:27.740 --> 00:07:32.149 possible. The just us system doesn't just dictate 00:07:32.149 --> 00:07:35.410 criminal outcomes. It's a determinant of health 00:07:35.410 --> 00:07:39.009 and well -being in this country. Join me as we 00:07:39.009 --> 00:07:41.850 unpack these systemic injustices and explore 00:07:41.850 --> 00:07:45.790 real solutions. Let's dig into the power of advocacy 00:07:45.790 --> 00:07:49.230 and policy change to turn this system around. 00:07:49.670 --> 00:07:52.949 Stick with us. This will be a journey worth taking. 00:07:54.990 --> 00:07:59.029 I'm so excited to introduce our next guest for 00:07:59.029 --> 00:08:04.269 this special series, Jesse Hamilton McCoy. Jesse 00:08:04.269 --> 00:08:07.949 Hamilton McCoy is clinical professor of law and 00:08:07.949 --> 00:08:11.490 supervising attorney for the Duke Law Civil Justice 00:08:11.490 --> 00:08:15.089 Clinic. In that capacity, he teaches a seminar 00:08:15.089 --> 00:08:18.889 course. mentors students in developing and improving 00:08:18.889 --> 00:08:23.129 basic civil litigation skills, and oversees their 00:08:23.129 --> 00:08:26.949 handling of cases for indigent clients who are 00:08:26.949 --> 00:08:30.209 often unable to obtain adequate representation 00:08:30.209 --> 00:08:34.149 in the traditional civil justice system through 00:08:34.149 --> 00:08:36.990 the clinic's partnership with Legal Aid of North 00:08:36.990 --> 00:08:42.320 Carolina. A Durham native, McCoy operated a boutique 00:08:42.320 --> 00:08:45.059 solo practice in Raleigh for four years before 00:08:45.059 --> 00:08:48.740 becoming a legal aid of North Carolina staff 00:08:48.740 --> 00:08:52.519 attorney in the agency's Winston -Salem and Durham 00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:55.700 offices. He has litigated cases in a variety 00:08:55.700 --> 00:08:58.100 of practice areas, including criminal defense, 00:08:58.440 --> 00:09:02.159 personal injury, public housing evictions, and 00:09:02.159 --> 00:09:05.299 voucher terminations, landlord -tenant matters, 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:09.700 and foreclosure defense. McCoy has also served 00:09:09.700 --> 00:09:12.259 as an advocate for victims of domestic violence 00:09:12.259 --> 00:09:15.299 in Wake, Durham, Granville, Vance, and Forsyth 00:09:15.299 --> 00:09:18.259 counties, and has taught at both the North Carolina 00:09:18.259 --> 00:09:21.679 Central University, Go Eagles, and Wake Forest 00:09:21.679 --> 00:09:26.159 University Schools of Law. Jesse McCoy, who joined 00:09:26.159 --> 00:09:30.179 the Duke Law faculty full -time in 2017, received 00:09:30.179 --> 00:09:34.659 his Bachelor of Arts from the great Florida A 00:09:34.659 --> 00:09:39.600 &M University in 2005. Strike, strike, and yes, 00:09:39.820 --> 00:09:43.340 strike again. And his JD from North Carolina 00:09:43.340 --> 00:09:47.340 Central University School of Law in 2008. He 00:09:47.340 --> 00:09:50.000 moonlights as a fiction writer and to date has 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:53.879 published two novels, A Family Saga, book one, 00:09:54.000 --> 00:09:58.360 Sundiata, and Black's Law, The Hellmaker. He 00:09:58.360 --> 00:10:00.679 also enjoys watching professional football with 00:10:00.679 --> 00:10:03.330 his wife and child. and cheering for the Carolina 00:10:03.330 --> 00:10:07.370 Panthers. I am so excited to start this conversation 00:10:07.370 --> 00:10:10.289 and just get right into it and especially proud 00:10:10.289 --> 00:10:13.529 to have my fellow Rattler here with us and my 00:10:13.529 --> 00:10:16.909 fellow North Carolinian. From the triangle, might 00:10:16.909 --> 00:10:19.190 I add, I'm a Raleigh girl and he's a Durham guy. 00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:22.090 And we're going to make this conversation do 00:10:22.090 --> 00:10:24.549 what it do. But before we get deep into the topic 00:10:24.549 --> 00:10:28.149 today, can you tell my audience why you decided 00:10:28.149 --> 00:10:30.490 to join me in this conversation on questions 00:10:30.490 --> 00:10:32.330 you didn't ask? What motivated you to say yes? 00:10:32.920 --> 00:10:35.399 Well, first of all, anytime that a fellow Rattler 00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:37.320 asks me to do anything, I'm going to be there, 00:10:37.419 --> 00:10:40.019 let alone a Rattler in North Carolina. So that's 00:10:40.019 --> 00:10:42.320 that's the one thing. The other thing is, I think 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:44.820 we've been blessed to have a professional relationship 00:10:44.820 --> 00:10:47.259 pretty much most of the time that I've been working 00:10:47.259 --> 00:10:50.059 at Duke. And so I've seen all of the amazing 00:10:50.059 --> 00:10:52.480 things that you've been working on. And I always 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:54.320 want to be a part of something that's positive 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.899 and that's helping the community. So here I am. 00:10:57.580 --> 00:11:01.370 Awesome. Awesome. Thank you so much. So, you 00:11:01.370 --> 00:11:03.929 know, I've just read your bio for the audience 00:11:03.929 --> 00:11:09.009 and I just want to also give them a chance to 00:11:09.009 --> 00:11:11.690 hear from you. Why did you decide to become a 00:11:11.690 --> 00:11:15.330 lawyer? So this is a very, very interesting and 00:11:15.330 --> 00:11:18.690 kind of long story. But initially, when I was 00:11:18.690 --> 00:11:21.029 in high school, you didn't really see a lot of 00:11:21.029 --> 00:11:23.840 people who practiced law. I was fortunate to 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:27.519 be in a health care partnership program that 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:29.360 would take kids from the inner city and pair 00:11:29.360 --> 00:11:32.700 them with doctors. And I met along the way a 00:11:32.700 --> 00:11:35.240 doctor, African -American doctor, who's a general 00:11:35.240 --> 00:11:38.039 surgeon at UNC. So I just thought, oh, I want 00:11:38.039 --> 00:11:41.440 to do that. Right. Problem is that I didn't know 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:44.139 anything about chemistry. I didn't have a lot 00:11:44.139 --> 00:11:47.179 of resources for sciences in my area. I just 00:11:47.179 --> 00:11:49.940 knew that he had a nice house, nice family, nice 00:11:49.940 --> 00:11:53.389 car. And that's what I wanted. So I set off initially 00:11:53.389 --> 00:11:56.190 trying to do the science route, trying to do 00:11:56.190 --> 00:11:58.970 the chemistry route, and learned very quickly 00:11:58.970 --> 00:12:02.179 my freshman year at Florida A &M. Chemistry for 00:12:02.179 --> 00:12:08.440 me. My grades were like not good. There's there's 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:10.879 there's borderline and then there's not good. 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:13.600 And I was at the not good place. I was the same 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.960 way with chemistry, by the way. It's not my friend. 00:12:17.580 --> 00:12:19.539 They don't do favors for you because they want 00:12:19.539 --> 00:12:21.820 to know that six in the morning for chemistry 00:12:21.820 --> 00:12:24.500 orientation. That wasn't for me. So anyways, 00:12:24.740 --> 00:12:27.440 I now my freshman year have this crisis where 00:12:27.440 --> 00:12:29.340 I'm trying to figure out, well, what else am 00:12:29.340 --> 00:12:31.750 I good at? One of the things that I remember 00:12:31.750 --> 00:12:34.730 from high school was, you know, being harassed 00:12:34.730 --> 00:12:37.710 by police. Most people have had this situation 00:12:37.710 --> 00:12:40.110 where if you live in certain communities, police 00:12:40.110 --> 00:12:42.190 just want to kind of prey on those communities 00:12:42.190 --> 00:12:44.870 to make it seem like everybody there is predatory. 00:12:44.870 --> 00:12:47.029 They accuse you of things you didn't do, all 00:12:47.029 --> 00:12:49.190 that stuff. And I remember one particular incident. 00:12:49.789 --> 00:12:53.750 When the police officers accused me and my guy 00:12:53.750 --> 00:12:55.909 brother of throwing rocks at people, something 00:12:55.909 --> 00:12:58.590 they knew we didn't do. Hands were full of groceries, 00:12:58.690 --> 00:13:01.629 but nonetheless. And I remember in that moment 00:13:01.629 --> 00:13:05.129 the embarrassment I felt because I wasn't able 00:13:05.129 --> 00:13:08.669 to vocalize anything. It was the power dynamic 00:13:08.669 --> 00:13:11.970 that was just off. And I said to myself, I want 00:13:11.970 --> 00:13:15.330 to be somebody in that moment who can make police 00:13:15.330 --> 00:13:19.169 officers feel like I feel right now. So when 00:13:19.169 --> 00:13:21.409 I got to FAMU and I realized that I wasn't going 00:13:21.409 --> 00:13:24.190 to be a doctor, I happened to be walking on campus 00:13:24.190 --> 00:13:27.570 and they had this thing called Law Day. And Law 00:13:27.570 --> 00:13:29.769 Day, for those who don't know, is a day where 00:13:29.769 --> 00:13:32.929 all of these ABA accredited schools, law schools, 00:13:33.070 --> 00:13:36.820 come to Florida A &M every October. And they're 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:39.299 trying to recruit students from Florida A &M 00:13:39.299 --> 00:13:41.740 to come to their law school. So I went to Law 00:13:41.740 --> 00:13:44.720 Day. It's a huge law school fair. And as I was 00:13:44.720 --> 00:13:46.740 walking through Law Day, the first sign I saw 00:13:46.740 --> 00:13:49.200 was somebody there from Duke University. And 00:13:49.200 --> 00:13:51.899 I'll shout him out, Dennis Shields, who was the 00:13:51.899 --> 00:13:54.620 dean of admissions for the law school at the 00:13:54.620 --> 00:13:57.679 time. And freshman year, made a relationship 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.019 with him. He met him. I told him I was interested. 00:14:00.240 --> 00:14:01.700 He asked me where I was from. I told him I was 00:14:01.700 --> 00:14:03.919 from Durham, North Carolina. He said, oh, great. 00:14:04.139 --> 00:14:07.080 You know, here's what you got to do. And from 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.960 that year forward, every year I would come back 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.919 to see and check up with, you know, Dennis Shields 00:14:12.919 --> 00:14:14.779 and find out where I'm at in the process and 00:14:14.779 --> 00:14:16.740 what I need to do for this year and all that 00:14:16.740 --> 00:14:20.159 stuff. So I do that for several years. And then 00:14:20.159 --> 00:14:22.500 finally, game time, you're supposed to be doing 00:14:22.500 --> 00:14:25.080 your LSAT, which is the test you take to go to 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.110 law school and getting everything ready. One 00:14:28.110 --> 00:14:30.769 of the issues is I was a broke college student. 00:14:30.889 --> 00:14:32.669 And when I say broke college student, that means 00:14:32.669 --> 00:14:35.289 that there's not going to be financial support 00:14:35.289 --> 00:14:38.370 from a parental unit that's going to be helping 00:14:38.370 --> 00:14:41.409 me. You on your own, right? Right. So, you know, 00:14:41.409 --> 00:14:43.789 between working and all this stuff, I was trying 00:14:43.789 --> 00:14:47.649 to figure out, okay, I can take the LSAT, but 00:14:47.649 --> 00:14:49.850 this is an expensive test. The application is 00:14:49.850 --> 00:14:52.350 expensive. The process is expensive. How do I 00:14:52.350 --> 00:14:55.639 navigate this? Florida A &M helped me again because 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:57.980 they had a graduate studies department that would 00:14:57.980 --> 00:15:02.159 pay for you to do one class. So I did a Princeton 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:06.139 Review class for the LSAT. Up until that point, 00:15:06.240 --> 00:15:08.200 I had been just, you know, I'm old school. I 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:10.519 go to the library, get a resource book, copy 00:15:10.519 --> 00:15:13.799 the pages, do and take practice tests on my own. 00:15:13.899 --> 00:15:16.340 It was doing pretty well, but it made me feel 00:15:16.340 --> 00:15:19.519 inferior because the Princeton Review LSAT prep 00:15:19.519 --> 00:15:22.279 class seemed like it was so much more comprehensive. 00:15:22.919 --> 00:15:25.820 And so I tricked myself into trying to learn 00:15:25.820 --> 00:15:28.360 the Princeton Review way. And I think that ended 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.720 up backfiring on me. So I got that free LSAT 00:15:31.720 --> 00:15:36.759 from FAMU. I took it and I did horrible. Wow. 00:15:37.659 --> 00:15:40.659 Don't believe the hype. Horrible. Don't believe 00:15:40.659 --> 00:15:43.980 the hype. The LSAT is a 129. I think I got a 00:15:43.980 --> 00:15:48.279 131. Wow. It was horrible. I took the LSAT in 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.700 a hotel. The Doubletree Hotel in Tallahassee, 00:15:51.740 --> 00:15:54.279 Florida, that was under construction. Wow. So 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:57.120 on top of not being confident, I'm hearing jackhammers 00:15:57.120 --> 00:16:00.720 like every 10 minutes, whatever. So I did horrible. 00:16:00.879 --> 00:16:03.720 Well, anyways, I go to Lauday, my senior year, 00:16:03.879 --> 00:16:06.080 and I'm like, hey, buddy, I did what you told 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.759 me to do. I'm ready to go to Duke. What's up? 00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:11.799 He saw my L -sign. I'm like, no, sir. This is 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:13.799 not going to get you into Duke. You need to take 00:16:13.799 --> 00:16:17.210 it again. Well, I'm broke. I can't afford to 00:16:17.210 --> 00:16:20.389 take it again. So I'm thinking law school dreams 00:16:20.389 --> 00:16:22.350 is gone. I got to figure out something else. 00:16:22.389 --> 00:16:24.610 Maybe they'll hire me to be a greeter at Walmart 00:16:24.610 --> 00:16:26.929 or something. I throw everything, you know, in 00:16:26.929 --> 00:16:29.649 the trash. I storm out of law day. I'm walking 00:16:29.649 --> 00:16:32.730 through campus. There's a lady who is giving 00:16:32.730 --> 00:16:35.769 her daughter a tour of Florida A &M because her 00:16:35.769 --> 00:16:38.350 daughter is interested and they look lost. So 00:16:38.350 --> 00:16:40.429 I stopped to ask, can I be of service to them? 00:16:40.970 --> 00:16:42.669 She was like, oh, sure. So they wanted to find 00:16:42.669 --> 00:16:44.610 where Foot Hillier was. I'm taking them on the 00:16:44.610 --> 00:16:47.809 tour. Lady says, I saw you coming out of law 00:16:47.809 --> 00:16:50.470 day. Do you want to be an attorney? And I said, 00:16:50.509 --> 00:16:53.269 well, I wanted to be an attorney. I was hoping 00:16:53.269 --> 00:16:56.129 I could do it. She said, interesting. Where are 00:16:56.129 --> 00:16:58.549 you from? I said, well, I'm from Durham, North 00:16:58.549 --> 00:17:01.210 Carolina. And she said, hmm, have you ever heard 00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:04.069 of North Carolina Central University? Of course 00:17:04.069 --> 00:17:07.029 I've heard of North Carolina Central. She was 00:17:07.029 --> 00:17:08.710 like, would you go to North Carolina Central 00:17:08.710 --> 00:17:11.289 University School of Law? I said, I will go to 00:17:11.289 --> 00:17:14.569 any law school that's willing to take me. And 00:17:14.569 --> 00:17:17.049 so she said, do this. All the stuff that you 00:17:17.049 --> 00:17:19.230 just gave, you were just giving to the other 00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:21.930 person. Bring it to me. Right. And this is a 00:17:21.930 --> 00:17:23.930 time, you know, back then they still had Social 00:17:23.930 --> 00:17:26.329 Security numbers on stuff. This is the biggest 00:17:26.329 --> 00:17:27.950 scam in the world. She would have got me for 00:17:27.950 --> 00:17:30.490 everything. But I just ran back and got all my 00:17:30.490 --> 00:17:33.480 stuff. gave it to her, not knowing her name, 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:36.180 not knowing her from Adam or anything. And she 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:38.960 was like, I'll see what I can do, right? Two 00:17:38.960 --> 00:17:41.579 weeks later, I get an acceptance letter to North 00:17:41.579 --> 00:17:44.519 Carolina Central University School of Law, right? 00:17:44.900 --> 00:17:47.460 So fast forward that August, I moved back from 00:17:47.460 --> 00:17:50.740 Florida to North Carolina. My first week, I go, 00:17:50.880 --> 00:17:53.140 my first day, I go to try to figure out who was 00:17:53.140 --> 00:17:56.220 this lady, right? Who was she? And come to find 00:17:56.220 --> 00:17:59.339 out she was the outgoing Dean of Finance for 00:17:59.339 --> 00:18:02.250 the law school. Wow. But for the fact that I 00:18:02.250 --> 00:18:04.609 was just nice in the moment, you know, God be 00:18:04.609 --> 00:18:09.609 blessed. Yeah. Be obedient. Yeah. But for the 00:18:09.609 --> 00:18:12.569 fact I was I was in the moment helping her and 00:18:12.569 --> 00:18:14.670 she had already seen me storm out, you know, 00:18:14.670 --> 00:18:17.250 whatever, not on my best behavior because of 00:18:17.250 --> 00:18:20.289 that. She, you know, looked out for me and I 00:18:20.289 --> 00:18:23.809 got into law school. So I'm running to her office. 00:18:23.930 --> 00:18:25.990 I'm thanking her all this stuff. Like, you know, 00:18:25.990 --> 00:18:28.089 thank you so much for giving me this, giving 00:18:28.089 --> 00:18:30.529 me that. And she was like, hold on. I didn't 00:18:30.529 --> 00:18:33.250 give you nothing. Now you got to earn it. Right. 00:18:33.670 --> 00:18:38.049 And you go do something with it. So I went in. 00:18:38.109 --> 00:18:40.789 I said, OK, game on. It's time to compete. Went 00:18:40.789 --> 00:18:43.910 to law school, competed, wasn't the best student, 00:18:44.049 --> 00:18:46.150 posted child for academic support. But the one 00:18:46.150 --> 00:18:48.950 thing that my law school professors will always 00:18:48.950 --> 00:18:52.589 say is he was not going to be deterred. Right. 00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:55.710 Right. I may not know, but I will set a meeting 00:18:55.710 --> 00:18:59.480 up with every professor every week. And go over 00:18:59.480 --> 00:19:02.299 my notes, go over my outlines, go over my flashcards, 00:19:02.460 --> 00:19:04.579 go over whatever. Then I go to academic support, 00:19:04.900 --> 00:19:08.079 go through all of their helpful aids in order 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:11.400 to try to figure it out. And I crept by, right? 00:19:11.500 --> 00:19:15.480 I crept by. I kept going. So what I didn't realize 00:19:15.480 --> 00:19:17.940 until now is that, one, it built a work ethic 00:19:17.940 --> 00:19:19.700 that I guess a lot of people don't really see. 00:19:20.079 --> 00:19:23.259 And number two, it built a sense of camaraderie 00:19:23.259 --> 00:19:26.119 with the professors to know, hey, we want this 00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:28.759 guy to do well because he is. working hard like 00:19:28.759 --> 00:19:31.319 he wants to do it and that propelled me to the 00:19:31.319 --> 00:19:32.940 point where i finished my first year finished 00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:35.440 my second year and then in the third year because 00:19:35.440 --> 00:19:38.140 i practically lived at the law school um the 00:19:38.140 --> 00:19:40.519 the student body made me the student bar association 00:19:40.519 --> 00:19:44.880 president for the university school of law We 00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:46.940 did a whole bunch of like national activism. 00:19:46.980 --> 00:19:49.720 If you remember the Gina Six, we took classes 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:52.079 of students, law students down to Gina, Louisiana 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:55.619 to be part of that event and help free Michael 00:19:55.619 --> 00:19:57.859 Bell. And people still talk about that stuff 00:19:57.859 --> 00:20:00.039 to this day. And we did a whole bunch of, you 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:03.920 know, civil rights focused impact work. So that's 00:20:03.920 --> 00:20:06.440 kind of. the credit and testament to the power 00:20:06.440 --> 00:20:08.819 of the law school and one of the things that 00:20:08.819 --> 00:20:11.599 i hope my legacy was for that law school was 00:20:11.599 --> 00:20:14.000 helping to reconnect because i think somewhere 00:20:14.000 --> 00:20:17.180 along the way we lost our way and started focusing 00:20:17.180 --> 00:20:20.180 on like trying to use laws of pivot to get to 00:20:20.180 --> 00:20:23.789 money as opposed to using law as a pivot to help 00:20:23.789 --> 00:20:26.789 advocate for people in our community. And me, 00:20:26.890 --> 00:20:28.349 I'm never going to be the person that's going 00:20:28.349 --> 00:20:30.569 to go get money at the corporate level. They're 00:20:30.569 --> 00:20:35.950 not going to want me, right? But because of that, 00:20:36.069 --> 00:20:37.950 I'm always going to be a man of the people. And 00:20:37.950 --> 00:20:39.710 I was like, if I'm going to be in a leadership 00:20:39.710 --> 00:20:42.569 position, we're going to reallocate and rededicate 00:20:42.569 --> 00:20:45.819 our focus to helping out the people. And that's 00:20:45.819 --> 00:20:49.160 pretty much explained my career ever since. Passed 00:20:49.160 --> 00:20:52.740 the bar in 2008 when there was no jobs, hung 00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:56.319 the shingle, did criminal defense, personal injury, 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:58.819 small business formation, whatever the community 00:20:58.819 --> 00:21:04.099 needed. Music law. And it ultimately ended up 00:21:04.099 --> 00:21:06.859 going to the nonprofit sector and worked for 00:21:06.859 --> 00:21:09.940 Legal Aid for about four years doing domestic 00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:12.579 violence victims advocacy work, expungement relief. 00:21:13.500 --> 00:21:15.119 foreclosure defense, basically whatever they 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.119 would throw on the table, I would do and really 00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.740 found my niche in the area of housing law. And 00:21:20.740 --> 00:21:24.279 I've been in housing law ever since. So now while 00:21:24.279 --> 00:21:25.900 I was doing that, I was also teaching along the 00:21:25.900 --> 00:21:28.720 way at Central, then at Wake Forest, and now 00:21:28.720 --> 00:21:31.680 at Duke. So it's been a very interesting career, 00:21:31.720 --> 00:21:36.019 not one that I had. set my intentions or my pathway 00:21:36.019 --> 00:21:38.680 on doing. But, you know, God be blessing you. 00:21:38.680 --> 00:21:40.960 Just doors open up, opportunities open up, and 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:43.519 I'm not afraid to walk through them. I'm never 00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:46.819 anything less than confident to walk through 00:21:46.819 --> 00:21:49.180 them because I feel like what's for you is for 00:21:49.180 --> 00:21:52.460 you. Amen. If you're enjoying the show as much 00:21:52.460 --> 00:21:55.460 as we love creating it, consider showing your 00:21:55.460 --> 00:22:00.480 support by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit buymeacoffee 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:06.920 .com. slash Nyesha Frey O. That's buymeacoffee 00:22:06.920 --> 00:22:13.859 .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O. All one word. 00:22:13.960 --> 00:22:18.640 Each cup is just $5 and every single one helps 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.759 us continue to produce, develop, and sustain 00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:24.940 the high quality content you've come to expect 00:22:24.940 --> 00:22:28.299 from questions you didn't ask. Thank you. for 00:22:28.299 --> 00:22:30.880 your continued support and let's keep the conversation 00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:34.599 going. Amen. I'm telling you, this is about being 00:22:34.599 --> 00:22:37.880 obedient. This is also about the power of why 00:22:37.880 --> 00:22:41.819 we go so hard for our HBCUs and why we love them 00:22:41.819 --> 00:22:46.000 so much, man. I mean, if this isn't a Testament 00:22:46.000 --> 00:22:49.160 and I know. people, so many people, including 00:22:49.160 --> 00:22:52.220 myself, that have stories just like that about 00:22:52.220 --> 00:22:56.380 how an HBCU stepped in in some type of way and 00:22:56.380 --> 00:23:00.619 literally changed the course of their life. Just 00:23:00.619 --> 00:23:02.779 by giving them a chance, not because they were 00:23:02.779 --> 00:23:04.599 perfect, not because they had all their ducks 00:23:04.599 --> 00:23:07.640 in a row, but because they gave them a chance. 00:23:07.819 --> 00:23:09.960 And we and those who thrive in that environment 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.900 are those who recognize that this is a once in 00:23:12.900 --> 00:23:15.900 a lifetime opportunity. Take all advantage of 00:23:15.900 --> 00:23:18.720 all of the nurturing and the opportunities that 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:21.779 are there and maximize it. Right. And and fly. 00:23:22.099 --> 00:23:26.000 Right. And so I am so proud to have you on my 00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.740 podcast today. I'm always proud to see all. the 00:23:29.740 --> 00:23:32.299 amazing work that you're doing. And I'm always 00:23:32.299 --> 00:23:34.940 trying my best to let you know, because I feel 00:23:34.940 --> 00:23:37.200 like it's important for us to let our brothers 00:23:37.200 --> 00:23:39.960 and sisters know you're doing a great job and 00:23:39.960 --> 00:23:43.920 I appreciate it. Oh, thank you. So even though 00:23:43.920 --> 00:23:46.039 I've shared your impressive bio and you've given 00:23:46.039 --> 00:23:48.619 your own story, your own words with our audience, 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.819 are there any major wins in your career that 00:23:51.819 --> 00:23:53.819 you have accomplished or you're working towards 00:23:53.819 --> 00:23:55.960 right now that you'd like to share with our audience? 00:23:56.960 --> 00:23:59.640 I mean, so I'm of the belief that there's no 00:23:59.640 --> 00:24:02.960 such thing as a small case. So major wins for 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:05.079 me in anything where my client leaves happier 00:24:05.079 --> 00:24:07.920 and in a better position than when they came 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:10.859 to me. And because most of my work has been focused 00:24:10.859 --> 00:24:14.900 on the people, those wins are not always easy 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:17.769 to come by, right? One of the big things that 00:24:17.769 --> 00:24:21.769 people kind of know me for now is in the world 00:24:21.769 --> 00:24:26.289 of housing. I really do a lot to prosecute landlords 00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:29.390 for substandard housing conditions. A lot of 00:24:29.390 --> 00:24:31.170 people are complaining about things like bed 00:24:31.170 --> 00:24:34.309 bug infestation, roach infestation, rat infestation. 00:24:34.349 --> 00:24:36.849 And landlords will take advantage and not necessarily 00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:40.289 fix it, but still be wanting to charge you top 00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:43.299 dollar for rent. And so, you know, what I've 00:24:43.299 --> 00:24:45.779 been able to do is get landlords to do wide scale 00:24:45.779 --> 00:24:48.920 repair work in the hopes of avoiding getting 00:24:48.920 --> 00:24:52.579 a money judgment that's going to bankrupt them. 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.180 You know, been able to encourage that. We've 00:24:55.180 --> 00:24:57.079 also been able to encourage the community just 00:24:57.079 --> 00:25:00.000 to empower tenants in the community to learn 00:25:00.000 --> 00:25:02.839 more about things like the shift from being a 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:06.240 tenant to being a homeowner, empowering tenants 00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:09.539 to understand, like, you know, just because you're 00:25:09.539 --> 00:25:11.789 a tenant and you're in a lease. That lease has 00:25:11.789 --> 00:25:14.089 a two way agreement. It's not just one time. 00:25:14.329 --> 00:25:17.829 So helping people understand those things. Before 00:25:17.829 --> 00:25:19.930 I was in the world of housing law and taking 00:25:19.930 --> 00:25:22.430 on housing authorities and all that stuff, I 00:25:22.430 --> 00:25:24.910 was doing criminal defense work. So a lot of 00:25:24.910 --> 00:25:28.769 people who on their worst day would happen or 00:25:28.769 --> 00:25:30.430 get caught up in something that they had nothing 00:25:30.430 --> 00:25:33.269 to do with. Helping to be able to advocate for 00:25:33.269 --> 00:25:37.000 them to avoid. harsh punitive issues that would 00:25:37.000 --> 00:25:39.480 happen or putting them into, you know, the carceral 00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:42.079 state, all that stuff, you know, and just empower 00:25:42.079 --> 00:25:45.259 people. I think the law itself can be very intimidating, 00:25:45.339 --> 00:25:48.460 but it's designed to be intimidating by, you 00:25:48.460 --> 00:25:51.509 know. for a reason. And the system works the 00:25:51.509 --> 00:25:53.650 way that the engineers designed it to work. So 00:25:53.650 --> 00:25:57.690 when we see disproportionality as far as who's 00:25:57.690 --> 00:26:00.410 being evicted, disproportionality as far as who's 00:26:00.410 --> 00:26:03.009 being arrested, disproportionality as far as 00:26:03.009 --> 00:26:05.410 who doesn't have access to the resources, it 00:26:05.410 --> 00:26:07.809 works the way that it was designed to work. So 00:26:07.809 --> 00:26:10.809 there needs to be more people who are on the 00:26:10.809 --> 00:26:13.890 side of the populace and particularly our community 00:26:13.890 --> 00:26:16.630 to advocate and seek the changes that we want. 00:26:17.420 --> 00:26:20.680 Exactly. I love it. I love it. That's getting 00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:24.460 us into my next question. You are leading us 00:26:24.460 --> 00:26:26.980 exactly where I want us to go in this conversation. 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:31.220 I'm going to ask you, in your opinion, what are 00:26:31.220 --> 00:26:33.920 some of the common experiences that make people 00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:37.130 vulnerable? to fall in prey to the criminal justice 00:26:37.130 --> 00:26:39.470 system or being incarcerated. And you talked 00:26:39.470 --> 00:26:41.289 about, you know, what it was like growing up 00:26:41.289 --> 00:26:44.650 as a young man in Durham. You talked about being 00:26:44.650 --> 00:26:47.869 a criminal defense attorney. And you also talked 00:26:47.869 --> 00:26:50.029 about the architecture of the system and the 00:26:50.029 --> 00:26:53.150 engineering of the system and its intentionality. 00:26:53.309 --> 00:26:55.910 So can you share a little bit more about what 00:26:55.910 --> 00:26:58.009 are some of the things that kind of make people 00:26:58.009 --> 00:27:01.869 vulnerable to the system? All right. So it's 00:27:01.869 --> 00:27:04.619 going to be. A lot of levels to this, concentric 00:27:04.619 --> 00:27:08.240 circles, right? Level number one, crime happens 00:27:08.240 --> 00:27:11.740 in everybody's community. It's not just one community 00:27:11.740 --> 00:27:14.700 and not another. Everybody's community. But the 00:27:14.700 --> 00:27:18.140 thing about the carceral state is arrests and 00:27:18.140 --> 00:27:21.809 convictions happen where the police look. Right. 00:27:22.029 --> 00:27:25.549 So if you don't look at the areas that are by 00:27:25.549 --> 00:27:27.910 UNC and Duke, but you look at the areas that 00:27:27.910 --> 00:27:31.369 are by Central and you find crime, I mean, that's 00:27:31.369 --> 00:27:34.329 how these things work. Right. The other part 00:27:34.329 --> 00:27:36.869 of that, that's the systemic part. The other 00:27:36.869 --> 00:27:39.930 piece of this, though, is we have a rich history 00:27:39.930 --> 00:27:43.730 of divestment from black enterprise. And what 00:27:43.730 --> 00:27:47.440 I mean by that is. There's a history of redlining, 00:27:47.539 --> 00:27:51.279 predatory lending, vagrancy laws, racialized 00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.480 covenants, so many things that have been essentially 00:27:54.480 --> 00:27:58.079 boot prints on the Black community to stop our 00:27:58.079 --> 00:28:01.579 advancement and growth that it becomes very difficult 00:28:01.579 --> 00:28:05.220 for us to find ways to ascend to the middle class, 00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:08.700 right? So it used to be that the way that you 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:10.799 ascend to the middle class is if you work hard 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:13.779 in a factory. You wouldn't own the factory. But 00:28:13.779 --> 00:28:16.680 if you get that factory 15, 20 years of your 00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:19.180 life, you get a pension and they take care of 00:28:19.180 --> 00:28:21.519 you for the rest of it. Right. But then in the 00:28:21.519 --> 00:28:23.539 80s and 90s, those factors is like, oh, we can 00:28:23.539 --> 00:28:25.220 find machines and computers to do it. We don't 00:28:25.220 --> 00:28:28.079 need you no more. So everybody gets tossed out 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:30.519 at the same time that, you know, I ain't going 00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:32.220 to say the president's name, but somebody was. 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:34.140 agreeing with other countries to bring crack 00:28:34.140 --> 00:28:37.619 into your neighborhood, right? Well, it is a 00:28:37.619 --> 00:28:40.140 fact. I mean, we know in the 80s and 90s, you 00:28:40.140 --> 00:28:43.819 know, who was in power. So, I mean, no secret. 00:28:43.960 --> 00:28:48.339 Go ahead. So, I've always viewed that scenario 00:28:48.339 --> 00:28:51.579 because, you know, I was in Vance County when 00:28:51.579 --> 00:28:54.220 that whole thing hit. And I saw people go from, 00:28:54.319 --> 00:28:57.240 yeah, three factories in Vance County, two of 00:28:57.240 --> 00:28:59.880 them closing the same week, right? So people 00:28:59.880 --> 00:29:02.660 go from being like, you know, responsible, community 00:29:02.660 --> 00:29:08.559 oriented, factory people. I got to get mine. 00:29:08.839 --> 00:29:11.619 Right. I got to get mine. And when that scarcity 00:29:11.619 --> 00:29:14.759 mentality kicks in in the community, the only 00:29:14.759 --> 00:29:16.619 way that you don't get it is to take for somebody 00:29:16.619 --> 00:29:20.079 else who's already in the community. Right. So 00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:22.839 there's that. A lot of the things that we project 00:29:22.839 --> 00:29:27.019 as criminality are. pieces of legislation that 00:29:27.019 --> 00:29:29.519 were designed for the express purpose of ensnaring 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.079 our community. And why, you may be asking, do 00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:36.160 they want to do that? Well, because the way the 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:40.180 13th Amendment works is you are only free unless 00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:43.079 you are convicted of a felony. And then you got 00:29:43.079 --> 00:29:45.400 to do hard labor for the state, right? And the 00:29:45.400 --> 00:29:47.660 state can send you out to do anything from road 00:29:47.660 --> 00:29:50.539 cleanup to picking cotton. They can do whatever 00:29:50.539 --> 00:29:54.500 they want, right? So the first thing is to understand 00:29:54.500 --> 00:29:58.859 that They're always going to leave like tidbits 00:29:58.859 --> 00:30:02.000 of Easter eggs that they want you to grab so 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.440 that they can catch you. Right. Well, you have 00:30:04.440 --> 00:30:06.960 to be three times smarter than the system, which 00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:09.640 is not fair. It's not right. But it's the reality. 00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:12.799 You have to understand everybody's always looking 00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:15.500 at you. They wait on you to mess up. They want 00:30:15.500 --> 00:30:17.759 you to add to their statistics so that you can 00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:19.619 support whatever their tough on crime agenda 00:30:19.619 --> 00:30:22.220 is going to be or whatever the case may be. And 00:30:22.220 --> 00:30:25.700 they don't believe in rehabilitation. Right. 00:30:25.700 --> 00:30:28.839 So they think once you get this negative record, 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:31.460 that that's who you always are. Whereas people 00:30:31.460 --> 00:30:33.680 who are in the community know we got folks that 00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:35.380 preach at the church that used to be in these 00:30:35.380 --> 00:30:39.160 streets. Right. Amen. So it's we're not one thing, 00:30:39.299 --> 00:30:42.559 but it's very hard, you know, especially me, 00:30:42.660 --> 00:30:45.200 because I'll say now I'm at a point of privilege 00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:48.619 where I can say if there's something that I want, 00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:52.259 I have financial resources to get it. But not 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.609 everybody is in that boat. And when everybody's 00:30:55.609 --> 00:30:58.250 not in that boat, sometimes it's very difficult 00:30:58.250 --> 00:31:00.809 to look at things like basic necessities that 00:31:00.809 --> 00:31:03.190 you can't attain and say, all right, well, we 00:31:03.190 --> 00:31:05.990 have to just rely on something bigger than us 00:31:05.990 --> 00:31:09.109 to make do. Right. Very difficult. And it might 00:31:09.109 --> 00:31:11.109 be cool on Monday and Tuesday, but by Friday, 00:31:11.130 --> 00:31:13.430 you're going to be hungry. Right. And I can't 00:31:13.430 --> 00:31:15.210 be mad at anybody trying to get what they got 00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:17.230 to get to feed their kids or feed their family. 00:31:18.089 --> 00:31:21.009 Or themselves. Or themselves. Right. So those 00:31:21.009 --> 00:31:23.940 are like the. I won't say noble, but those are 00:31:23.940 --> 00:31:26.380 like the reasons why a lot of people get in. 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.960 Now, there's also this kind of new generation 00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.180 of people who do things for image. Right. And 00:31:32.180 --> 00:31:34.640 those are the people that scare me. So there 00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.000 are Facebook, TikTok, Instagram. Exactly. There 00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:40.420 are young people who want folks to believe an 00:31:40.420 --> 00:31:43.440 image of who they are. Maybe because of the people 00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:46.119 that they hold in high esteem as heroes, like 00:31:46.119 --> 00:31:49.059 folks who are, you know, rappers and gangsters 00:31:49.059 --> 00:31:52.240 and TV show personalities or whatever, who they 00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:54.759 want to be like. But I don't think they understand 00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:57.460 that all of those things are creatures of fiction, 00:31:57.579 --> 00:32:01.980 right? Hollywood. Right. So people on the TV 00:32:01.980 --> 00:32:04.519 show selling drugs don't really sell the drugs 00:32:04.519 --> 00:32:06.440 and they don't deal with the consequences that 00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:08.880 happen if you get caught up in that. And even 00:32:08.880 --> 00:32:11.240 the stories that they claim to be based on fact. 00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:15.799 there is some fact and then there's a whole lot 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:18.799 of fiction that gets filled in around it. Absolutely. 00:32:19.220 --> 00:32:22.859 Which is another part of this, like I said, there's 00:32:22.859 --> 00:32:25.359 layers to this. Another part of that is that 00:32:25.359 --> 00:32:29.440 criminality is marketed to our community disproportionately. 00:32:30.099 --> 00:32:32.700 You don't hear them marketing that stuff to the 00:32:32.700 --> 00:32:34.440 rock and roll community or whatever the case 00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:38.099 may be. And they do it too. The reason being 00:32:38.099 --> 00:32:41.700 is because they want us to aspire to do that. 00:32:41.930 --> 00:32:44.789 Right. And on top of that, they feel like they're 00:32:44.789 --> 00:32:47.509 killing multiple birds with one stone. What folks 00:32:47.509 --> 00:32:50.710 haven't appreciated is that when your area, me 00:32:50.710 --> 00:32:52.829 being from Durham, I've seen this firsthand. 00:32:53.029 --> 00:32:56.309 When your city is deemed to be infested with 00:32:56.309 --> 00:32:59.750 crime. Right. That drives all your property value 00:32:59.750 --> 00:33:02.650 down. So people with the money come in and they 00:33:02.650 --> 00:33:05.309 buy your city from under you and then they build 00:33:05.309 --> 00:33:07.390 the city that they want to have and push everybody 00:33:07.390 --> 00:33:11.220 out with gentrification. Right. So the thing 00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:13.819 about it is, if you decide that you're going 00:33:13.819 --> 00:33:16.380 to engage in criminal activity, you are actually 00:33:16.380 --> 00:33:19.619 doing multiple detriments to your own community, 00:33:19.740 --> 00:33:21.539 not just driving the property value down, not 00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:24.059 just harming the people who are around you, not 00:33:24.059 --> 00:33:26.339 just harming yourself and your own future prospects. 00:33:26.619 --> 00:33:29.220 But you are actually doing all these things. 00:33:29.259 --> 00:33:31.019 And somebody is going to write a story about 00:33:31.019 --> 00:33:36.220 you and make it a rap song. So so it's it's a 00:33:36.220 --> 00:33:39.140 lot of exploitation, which is kind of. in the 00:33:39.140 --> 00:33:42.680 vein of American society since before our establishment. 00:33:42.920 --> 00:33:46.220 Like we know who gets exploited to make the goods 00:33:46.220 --> 00:33:48.900 and services and build the buildings and get 00:33:48.900 --> 00:33:51.740 the food and all that stuff in order to support 00:33:51.740 --> 00:33:55.299 and sustain the economy. So half of my message 00:33:55.299 --> 00:33:57.420 to young people is don't feed yourself to the 00:33:57.420 --> 00:34:00.940 wolf being stupid, right? These days we got so 00:34:00.940 --> 00:34:04.019 many people and, you know, I started off by saying 00:34:04.019 --> 00:34:06.799 that I didn't see a lot of attorneys. in Durham 00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:09.159 when I was young. That's not to say they weren't 00:34:09.159 --> 00:34:11.119 there. They just didn't come to our neighborhood. 00:34:11.380 --> 00:34:13.639 So what do I do? I go to the neighborhood, right? 00:34:13.860 --> 00:34:16.539 I need you to see me, right? Know that this is 00:34:16.539 --> 00:34:18.719 possible. Let me tell you about these programs 00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:21.940 and plans and things you can do now that will 00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:25.079 prepare you. Also, people got way more resources 00:34:25.079 --> 00:34:30.820 nowadays than we had. I remember when Tandy Computers 00:34:30.820 --> 00:34:33.940 came out. And folks were like, wow, what's a 00:34:33.940 --> 00:34:36.980 computer, right? Right. Now people got computers 00:34:36.980 --> 00:34:40.159 in their pockets. Right. They got these, right. 00:34:40.280 --> 00:34:42.920 So the fact that somebody can see you with a 00:34:42.920 --> 00:34:44.639 straight face and tell me they don't know something 00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:47.159 and you got a smartphone, I'm like, who made 00:34:47.159 --> 00:34:50.820 you? Right. Thank you for joining us on Questions 00:34:50.820 --> 00:34:54.420 You Didn't Ask with me, Naisha Frey, and my guest, 00:34:54.619 --> 00:34:57.699 Jesse McCoy. Tune in next week as we continue 00:34:57.699 --> 00:35:02.150 our series, Justice or Just Us. How Law, Health, 00:35:02.289 --> 00:35:04.349 and Equity Collide in America.