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Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask with
me, Nyesha Frey, and my guests, Melba Perry and
Jessica Burris, as we continue the series from
birth to beyond, unveiling challenges of maternal
and infant health. Let's get back into the discussion.
So ladies, if you're thinking about having a
baby, if you are pregnant, if you just gave birth,
check in, check it out. Are there doulas? Are
there midwives? Are there, what do we call them?
LB, IB. IBCLC. Is there a CLC, even if it's not
an IBCLC? Are there lactation consultants that
you can talk to? There are people out here and
organizations out here looking to help support
your health and your well -being. And I think
that that's really important, but we also need
to challenge our systems and our organizations.
to do better about communication and outreach.
And that's one of the reasons why I have this
podcast. You all know that I have my company,
Naisha Frey Consulting, LLC. And I'm not a...
lactation consultant. I do health equity research
and practice, right? So this is an arm of my
business, health communication, right? The podcast
is about health communication to address these
questions and these issues that a lot of people
don't even know that there are answers to or
that their resources are professionals. And the
great thing about it is... Sometimes you just
need to start having conversations with the people
around you. Right. Because a lot of the people
that I bring on my show, not only are they, you
know, you know, folks that have international
or national, you know, credibility and accolades
and degrees and all that cool stuff. But a lot
of it is just like this conversation we're having
now. These women are talented. They're smart.
They're educated. They're all these things. And
then we get into a conversation about our real
lives, right? And then I find out there is this
richness within my own village, right? I've just
extended my village by having these conversations.
And I know not everyone is as verbose and talkative
as I am. But if I can use that gift to create
a platform to have these conversations in public.
Right. Where other people can learn from these
discussions and not only advocate for themselves
and their family and their friends, but also
put pressure on those people and organizations
and systems and policies that we have that are
in the way of our health and our wellness and
in the way of. allowing us to be able to live
in an equitable society that supports and sustain
our health and well -being, especially in a country
like the United States of America, where we have
just about every resource you can think of. And
we also have every disparity that you can think
of. So one of the things that we talked about
was we touched on mental health challenges. We
touched on racism, right? And one of the things
that I was reading about was how people may or
may not understand that being a person of color,
and especially an African American woman, a woman
of African descent in this world, not just the
United States, brings with it uninvited discrimination,
prejudice, and racism, right? We oftentimes get
People outside of our community sometimes criticize
the Black and African community and African diaspora.
Why are you always talking about race? Look,
if we didn't have to talk about it, we wouldn't.
If it didn't bother us. and get in our way, we
wouldn't be talking about it, right? We'd rather
move on and talk about something else. But until
that happens, where we truly live in an anti
-racist society, we have to talk about it because
one of the things that happens is that this racism
gets under our skin, down to our DNA. And not
only can it affect our physical health, but it
affects our mental health. So can you talk a
little bit more about how you see these different
mental health issues and challenges that women
are going through and how this, you know, racist,
systemic racist system feeds into things like
distrust, things feeds into things like hypervigilance
and feeds into things like, and what I mean by
hypervigilance is you're always. concerned about
having to be preemptive, having to think two
steps ahead, looking and making sure that you're
safe and your surroundings are safe. You're thinking
about the choice of words because you know that
the right, wrong, look on your face, a choice
of words out of that other person could mean
something. It could mean something that might
affect your life. So that's what hypervigilance
is. It means you're always on, right? And you
don't get to turn that off until you get to a
safe space, right? And that safe space is often
not out in the world amongst the general pop,
right? So as a Black person, we live with a certain
level of stress just because of the skin that
we're in. And it's uninvited, okay? These are
things, you know, there's certain levels of stress
that we invite, right? You know, Jessica wants
to invite some stress because she is interested
in becoming a CLC and she knows that there's
a lot of classes that she needs to take. And
that's going to bring a certain level of stress
because she wants to pass the test. Right. And
receive the certificate. You know, there are
certain levels of stress that we invite into
our life. I want to buy a house. Right. That's
that's going to bring some stress. But I'm excited
about what the outcome of that is, the stability
that that brings, the wealth that that builds.
But this is uninvited stress. Because in the
process of having a baby, which is exciting,
and we know it's going to be stressful, there's
all these other factors too. So I'm going to
be quiet for a moment and open it back up. Melba,
would you like to share a little bit about that?
Or Jessica, is this kind of touching on some
things for you in terms of mental health and
of women and mothers birthing people? I think
this is direction that you're going. So when
I was pregnant with my daughter, I was, I had
just went back to work after a year and a half
after having my son. And as soon as I started
back to work, right after my mom passed away,
I found out I was pregnant with her. So I let
my job know, I let my job also know I'm going
to take three months off from maternity leave.
I knew that you ain't going to pay me anyway.
I'm taking three months and I haven't, eight
months to, you know, make myself irreplaceable.
I mean, I know I could do that, but she, you
know, my boss was accepting of that. And so when
I found out about prenatally that my child was
going to have some disabilities and that, that
made it even more like, yes, I'm definitely going
to take three months at least. But, but I mean,
I didn't go in it with like a rude way or anything.
It was just, but. I had a great relationship.
No care and advocacy is good. Yeah, because that's
another thing. I know my rights and I know my
rights as far as like, you can't fire me because
this, you know, or whatever. And that's another
thing. Women need to be more educated on their
rights, especially their rights during pregnancy
or postpartum, you know, breastfeeding rights
and all that. Anyway, so whenever I came back
to work, I was. And I knew my rights for breastfeeding
and, but it stressed me out because I'm just
not like that type of employee. Well, I felt
like, well, see, that's another thing. What type
of employee are you talking about? I, that's,
that's what I was going to say. Like the fact,
the fact that I even felt that way, like, Oh,
that's not the type of employee I am. I had to
check myself. It's like, why are you even thinking
that? Because. You don't you feel like you're
not a good employee if you are asking. So I knew
my rights in North Carolina as far as how many
breaks I should get in the type of space I could
get just to pump through work. And I really hated
myself for like thinking that way at first. And
it took a minute for me to not feel that way
and to feel confident about it. But I was either
going to. breastfeeding was more important to
me like if you're not going to give me the space
and threat my job like i don't need to be here
you literally are not paying me enough to even
do this i just wanted to work and i like being
here but she my boss she one day i went to the
uh printer and i we talked about this so if she
ever heard this i mean she's not gonna you know
but she actually was looking it up and she had
printed off like the And I think it was for our
corporate office so that they would know, but
they were so cool about it and everything. But
I just think back to how I initially felt like
I know my rights, but I felt stressed out and
felt like I was going to be judged and not, you
know, just for asking for what I know is right.
So it really, it really did stress me. And that
was about a month into, until I have to have
my baby and I knew I was going to go back to
work in a couple of months. But I figured it
out. I got my confidence up and everything. And
now after that, all I want to do is just educate
other moms on their rights. Like, I don't care
if you work at a convenience store or if you
work at wherever, you have rights for breastfeeding.
i wish i just want moms to know that more because
that is a big hindrance on breastfeeding i'm
really big about increasing the amount of maternity
leave that is just so important to me at least
to like 12 weeks maybe you know what is that
three yeah three months it just sounds like the
perfect amount of time six week is six weeks
is not enough and i think a lot of moms probably
They get stressed when they know they have to
go back to work after six weeks. Just like you
said, how you looked at your baby and you couldn't
imagine going back to work at six weeks when
you looked at her. Imagine the moms who have
no choice. That stress that they take on. I mean,
it's sad. And I mean, and they have to do it.
You know, they have to or it's their livelihood.
And it just shouldn't be that way, especially
when you're in when you're in a country that.
you know, has a certain political system that
is taking away rights from women and just promoting,
oh, family have babies, this and that, you know,
stay at home, don't work moms, you know, let
the dads do it. That's well, okay. You can already
tell like politically where our government puts
its focus, what group of people it puts its focus
on. And it's not the everyday woman, the majority
of women. I just, I'm all about just women power
and especially when it comes to their bodies
and pregnancy, postpartum and childcare, because
I'm not going to get started on childcare costs
and all that. That is literally a whole nother
conversation. Well, it does affect your mental
health. And I think that affects your mental
health too, for sure. Because you're concerned
or you're worried about how this past summer,
I thought I was going to go crazy. just because
of there's no, I didn't have any childcare. My
job was flexible and they were cool about it.
And I could take my daughter to work, but I mean,
can you imagine Melba? Can you imagine your daughter
sitting in an office for over an hour, like a
little office? It's just not going to happen.
He was very cool about me working part -time
from home and all that, but that goes back to
me putting stress on myself. Maybe unnecessarily
because he was OK with it. But in my head. You
know, it was going to be a catastrophe. I just
didn't want to be that employee. And mainly because
I'm a woman, because I'm the black woman in the
office. So I just didn't want to. It's just like
a trickle down effect of just, you know. So I
think the more we come together and people know
their rights, women know their rights. and just
get more confidence overall when it comes to
you know your your rights with postpartum care
maternity care especially when it comes to the
workplace after you have the baby or even before
you have the baby it'll just make women better
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going. Yeah. And I, I mean, I have, I have some
thoughts about being that employee as a black
woman in the office, but before I get on my soapbox,
I wanted to hear what Melba has to say. What
are your thoughts about, you know, our society,
racism, stress, you know, and all that kind of
stuff for, for birthing people and, and, and
black women and you know, that whole thing. I
totally agree with Jessica, especially with the
maternity leave. We have to look at other countries
and what their statistics are when it comes to
maternal health. A lot of countries, you can
be out of work for up to a year for maternity
leave. So just to know, oh my God, I don't have
to rush back to work. I can figure these things
out. I can have more bonding time with my baby.
That's huge when it comes to the mental health.
I think what is great that now some jobs are
starting to allow dads to have a certain amount
of weeks of maternity leave, which is... great.
Like we never heard of that ever. And I think
that's awesome and helps the mom out a lot. So
like, you know, they're ready to go back to work
for instance. And dad be like, okay, if you're
ready to go back to work, you can go back. I
will take my leave now. So you won't be too stressed
out about where the baby at. Is my baby okay?
So I think that is great. And I, you know, for
me, when i had my daughter i was stressed out
because i found out during my um pregnancy that
lena had down syndrome and i'm like oh what am
i gonna do now i didn't know you know where she
would be at like as far as health wise how healthy
was she gonna be am i gonna have to take off
a lot of time and do stuff with her and i Do
not remember, you know, anyone talking to me
about mentally, how are you feeling now that
you got all this news? Like, where are you at
mentally? What are your thoughts? Someone there
to help me process everything that I've been
told. Like I got told this over a phone call.
Hi, we're calling to let you know about your
lab results. It showed that you can possibly,
your daughter may have trisomy 21. We want to
bring you in for additional testing. I'm like,
huh? And I'm on my lunch break getting this news.
So it's a lot to take in, you know? So it's like,
oh, y 'all just going to call and tell me. this
i feel like you should have called and say hey
we want to bring you in for your lab results
and go over it then so i'm hanging up off a five
minute phone call and i'm at work like what the
hell did they just say you know it's like that's
a lot mentally on you and for me luckily i met
you guys i didn't have any support as an african
-american mom who has a child with Down syndrome.
You know, there's a lot of support groups out
there, but it was not catered to my community
in which I'm going to be raising my child in.
You know, so that's huge. Like, I love the fact
Down syndrome has a huge network, whether it's
Black. I ain't going to say that. They have a
huge network, period. Oh, tell the truth. They
have a huge network overall, but it's not a network
in regards to my community, like the place where
I'm going to raise my child at. How do I educate
the people that's around, going to be around
my daughter, the school system and stuff like
that. So that was a huge barrier. for me mentally.
I don't know if I answered the question. You
did. You answered it. You answered it. You answered
it because you talked about, I mean, both of
you talked about, talked about it from your own
experience, from your heart, right? So there's
nothing wrong with that. That's exactly why I
asked you to come because I knew that you were
going to bring that, right? And one of the things
that I want to talk about is the perception of
Black women. and how we're constantly, again,
hypervigilant and having to fight against these
negative perceptions, having to anticipate other
people's perceptions of us that might result
in us losing our job, losing our pay, losing
benefits, losing, losing, losing. Because I might
be putting words in your mouth, Jessica, and
you're free to correct me. But I think what's
at the root of that question of, you not wanting
to be that quote unquote employee as a Black
woman and being the only Black woman in the office
is the reality that it's the conundrum of our
culture and our society that Europeans made a
dastardly, evil, terroristic decision to enslave
mostly West African people, and bring them to
the United States to force them to work for free,
bought and sold their children and each other,
their people. In order to allow other European
people, and now that I've recently learned Native
American people, and that's going to be a whole
other conversation for another day, to be able
to benefit and become rich off of their labor.
And then turn around and call those very same
people lazy. They paint our people as lazy. They
continue to say, you just need to pick yourself
up by your bootstraps. Otherwise, you're just
complaining or you're asking for a handout and
you don't deserve it. We're dealing with the
stress of trying to undo that even when we're
pregnant because that same legacy and history
also is rooted in the fact that women were often
forced to work while they were pregnant. Forget
six weeks of recovery post birth. You were out
there in the field picking cotton and giving
birth at the same time. Clean the baby up, put
them in, wrap them up, put them on your back
and keep picking. This is the society that birthed
us. And to this day in the year 2024. We are
still dealing with those perceptions that limit
our ability to advocate for ourself when these
are things that are supposed to be in place by
law. But we don't trust the law because the law
also used to enslave us. The law still chooses
to pull our brothers and our sisters over and
kill them in their homes. killed them in the
street. So we have this weird sort of thing going
on where we're trying to bring life into this
world, knowing what this life has for our children.
And what you were talking about, Melba, and what
Jessica, all of us connected on at that women's
retreat in that suite was that we understood
that the world that our babies were growing up
in was going to treat them differently. That
they were going to have a different experience
and that there were certain cultural aspects
of the way that we educate our family and our
friends that was going to be different than our
non -Black counterparts. And so we're struggling
and chasing to find this community. And for us,
by the time that I met you all, my daughter was,
what, 10 years old? You know, and your daughters
are younger than my daughter. But this wasn't
like in place for us before our daughters were
born or immediately after we gave birth, having
a support system that was made up of people that
were culturally and historically connected to
who we are as women or who our families are.
And so you guys. Talked about that beautifully
in regard to the different struggles that you
have, the different concerns that you have. And
this is when we are privileged to have even known
what our child's diagnosis was. There's plenty
of children and mothers that don't know and they
have to go years before they find out. There's
something uniquely different about my child.
My child is struggling with something. And I'm
trying to go to work and survive and not be that
employee because I got to keep that money flowing.
Because no one's going to care why I can't pay
the mortgage or I can't pay my rent. And if they
do care, we have to have people like Melba and
people like Jessica out there that can point
us in the direction of community. organizations
and networks and churches and whoever else that
say, hey, we can slide you some rent money and
we can help lighten the load, right, with some
transportation. And we can help identify some
resources within your insurance that can help
you come up with a plan where you can survive
and thrive. And so that's kind of where I wanted
to go with this discussion. And I'm so glad that
you all entertained it with me. Before I turn
it over into aspirations and inspirations, is
there anything else that y 'all wanted to share
or reflect on as it relates to the mental health
of women who are having babies and bringing life
into this world and these dichotomies? On one
hand, we have a society that has elected people
who put laws in place that say, You can't control
your birth and reproductive system. You must
let it do what it does naturally, regardless
of your circumstances. And yet, and still they
provide no additional support to help people
do that successfully. And when you ask them for
that additional support, they look down because
I know some people are going to listen. They're
going to be like, all three of them Black women
was on WIC, see? And they're going to look at
it negatively. But we're here to say we deserve
those resources. Well, you know what? You know
what? Go ahead, Jessica. I already know you hype.
Go ahead. Yes, I was a WIC mom, but I worked
part -time for WIC while I was a WIC mom. And
I joined the National Advisory Board of WIC participants.
I filled out an application. I got accepted.
So I was on a... It was a board national federal
WIC department. And we met monthly. And I went
to, I got invited to DC to attend the conference
on nutrition, health, and well, I can't remember
the name right now, but the conference was held.
It was held two years ago. And the last time
they held that conference. is when WIC was formed
from that conference. So they held it again.
So I was able to be in the room with lawmakers,
decision makers, huge companies like the dairy
company or just huge companies and just important
people. And it was just so good to be there.
But I went there just because I was a participant
of WIC. And I just feel... a little application
to be a part of their advisory board so a lot
came out of that and not not just that the reason
wick is there is it's a beautiful thing so i
never felt you know embarrassed because i was
on wick well actually let me take that back so
when i had my daughter at 15 years old that was
back when they had the paper whip wick vouchers
so i was 15 years old so i was just kind of you
know You're a child. It's easy to get embarrassed
at 15 years old. That's also when they had the
paper food stamp books. Remember that? And we
had those too. Give me some of them right now.
And I will not be embarrassed. I was 15 embarrassed
as an adult. No, I just, I was, the way I felt
was it's here. It's a program that's here. This
is what it's here for. I've fallen to these guidelines
and why not? Because I'm pretty sure all the
people who accepted that free money during COVID,
because that went to people less deserving. Speak
on it. Yeah. And those people had no problems.
So I never felt embarrassed. I was proud of WIC.
I supported it. I even promoted it when I was
on the advisory board. Because there's so many
moms that qualify that aren't on there. So I
just feel like WIC is a great program. As far
as it comes to maternal health and or just breastfeeding,
WIC is there to feed. So the support for maternal
health and from the health department, even from
the health department or post maternal health
for you or the baby, that's going to have to
come from something, you know, more on the outside.
So I don't blame WIC or anything or the health
department, but that's where I love that Melba
is a doula. There is a call for more Black doulas.
My sister was wanting to be a doula. And I think
UNC had some type of program where you could
get your doula certification for free or something.
I don't know if that's what you were talking
about before, but they are looking for more Black
doulas because they see that there's a need for
it. So I think if we just supported other Black
women that have the same, you know, like -minded
people, they just need somebody to... reach out
to them and bring them into the conversation,
just like you did, Naisha, with me for this.
So I think that the, I think the energy is out
there, but we just have to gather that energy
because Black women have so much power across
all levels of anything in this country that we
just need to own that and we will continue to
thrive. is how I see it. So I'm just really happy
to be a part of this conversation. And thank
you. You are most certainly welcome. And Jessica,
either now or just as we're wrapping up, because
we're coming to a close, I really love to end
with inspiration, solutions, resources, models,
things that give us hope, right? Because Jessica,
you said it. Women, and especially Black women,
we have a lot of power. We have a lot of influence.
We have a lot of capabilities and strength and
wisdom, right? And a lot of know -how and moxie
and go get them, right? And so there's not too
many things that we cannot do, right? And so
with that... Not only do I want to use this platform
to lift up the voices of people who have these
lived experiences and ask the questions and share
the information, I also want to be a place where
people can come and say, they say Kamala Harris's
mother, our vice president Kamala Harris's mother,
and hopefully future president. Her mother used
to say, don't get mad, do something about it.
So I really love that. And I'm a do something
about it type of woman. That's the reason why
I say I do health equity research and practice.
I don't believe in stopping at research. I know
research is important. So as you're thinking
about your career, your network, the circles
that you're in, maybe even your social media
feed, I don't know. What are those organizations?
and professionals that you look up to that give
you hope. What are those models or programs that
you've seen? I mean, Melba, you talked about
how some countries, they have a whole year for
maternity leave. What are those things that you've
seen that really inspire you and give you hope
or that you hope more people would do what they're
doing or that they would receive more funding
or that? Maybe you would have the opportunity
to partner with them. Is this something that
you're doing? Because one thing that I didn't
hear, Melba, is I know you have a company and
I expect you to share with our audience the name
and contact information of your company. But
this is a time to share. How are you staying
motivated? What are your aspirations and inspirations?
So for me, I love the fact that this maternal
health has become a big thing. and I just pray
and I hope that it continues to be a big thing
and it's not just a fad. We find so many times
that something is a fad and it's a big thing
and then that's it. I just hope and I pray that
it continues to go further so we don't ever get
back to this place again. I don't want history
to repeat itself like it typically does. So as
far as my business, I have a business called
Infinity Dual Services. I am on Facebook and
Instagram, but I really don't be up there that
lot, a whole lot. You can email me at M as in
Mary, S as in Sam, P as in purple, E -R -R -Y
814 at gmail .com. Or infinity, I -N -F -I -N
-I -T -Y doulaservice at gmail .com. I hope I
spoke. Perfect. Yes, I think you did. And of
course, it'll be in the show notes. Of course,
of course. Her email address, she's given two
email addresses. I think this is wonderful that
you share the name of your business, Infinity
Doula Services. I'm so excited for the work that
you do. And Melba, she's being very modest, but
she is a very well -respected doula, especially
in, and health advocate, health equity advocate,
especially in Eastern North Carolina, which is
a very important part of our state. And so I'm
so glad to be in your number, Melba. But if you
want to reach her, then of course, contact her
at infinity doula services at Gmail. Is that
correct, Melba? That is correct. And Jessica,
I mean, I know that you're not necessarily in
space of being an entrepreneur right now, but
what are some organizations? I mean, you just
lifted up WIC. I mean, I just thought that that
was awesome. But what other organizations do
you, look up to? So I do have a company. It's
not a company yet, but when I, so last year,
last spring, I graduated with my associates finally
from the community college. And it was business
administration and I had to do a business plan.
So I created my business plan as a lactation
services business. Nice. I mean, I'm so passionate
about it, but it will be called Mariposa Lactation
Services. But, you know, don't look it up because
it's not a company yet. But when I made the business
plan. I was halfway through it. I was like, Oh
my God, I could do this. Like this is actually
doable. When I got to like the finance part and
all that stuff, but I am a part of our towns
Juneteenth heritage incorporated. It's a nonprofit.
I'm on the board. So we do our counties Juneteenth
Festival every year. And it's fairly new, a few
years, and we're trying to find more volunteers
to do more community engagement. But I remember
the first time I was asked to even help with
the festival last minute, it was when I was a
peer counselor at the WIC office. And I created
all of these infographic flyers about specifically
about blast black. breastfeeding rates and so
non -profit uh juneteenth heritage is really
good about anything you know related to the black
community and i'm sure they would support anything
related to health and specifically black women's
health so there's that and i am on the board
of our local partnership for children And the
Partnership for Children is a nonprofit. It's
state funded and their focus is from birth to
five years old. So they focus on reading specifically
and they really do focus on child care. So they
do a lot of things about assisting people who
want to get into child care, people who want
to be certified, you know, training people on
what it takes to be certified. They offer. vouchers
or incentives for workers to be child care workers.
The Partnership for Children were actually the
ones who facilitated pre -K in North Carolina
until a few years ago when Head Start took over
and it became NC Pre -K. So it used to be through
the Partnership for Children. But they also work
with our local health department every year during
breastfeeding week and they provide so much support
to do a huge event about the promotion of breastfeeding.
I just think that if you can reach out to any,
specifically when it comes to Black maternal
health, there are organizations around in North
Carolina that you can find and give support to
and postpartum health, breastfeeding, et cetera.
Thank you so much, Melba and Jessica. Oh my gosh,
this is awesome. And I'm gonna provide some additional
resources. Please check my social media, LinkedIn,
Facebook, Instagram. You can find me at naishafrayconsultingllc.
Also sign up for my newsletter. That is at naishafray
.com, N -I -A -S -H -A. F -R -A -Y .com. You
can sign up for my newsletter. You'll get lots
of resources, lots of opportunities to learn
more about Jessica, to learn more about Melba,
and most importantly, to learn more about how
to connect with organizations that are doing
great work to improve the maternal health and
infant. mortality amongst black women and other
women in the United States. So thank you so much,
Jessica and Melba. If you have any last comments,
any last aha moments, this is a great time to
do it. I just want to say thank you for having
us. Thank you for having this platform. Thank
you for being you, because if it wasn't for you.
we wouldn't know what questions to ask. So thank
you. Well, we all have it all deep down inside
of ourselves. Like you said, it's kind of in
the blood, right? So I'm just using the gifts
that God gave me as you are. And thank God for
putting each other, putting us in each other's
paths so that we could do this work together
and uplift these very important voices and stories
and resources.