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Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask with
me, Naisha Frey, and my guests, Melba Perry and
Jessica Burris. As we continue the series from
birth to beyond, unveiling challenges of maternal
and infant health. Let's get back into the discussion.
I really appreciate you shedding light on the
mental health of fathers and father figures,
male birthing support people in that situation,
their emotional health and well -being while
they are supporting the mother. And after the
birth of the child, it matters too. I really
appreciate you speaking on how these men, or
even if it's a woman, you know, supporting another
woman, if they're in a domestic relationship
where they are seeing each other on a routine
basis, waking up and going to sleep, whether
or not they're sexually involved or not, we're
not making any statements about that. They do
have a very unique and important perspective
on the actual well -being and health of the mother.
And women, for a number of different reasons,
and Black women in particular, commonly are cultured
to downplay a lot of our ailments, a lot of our...
mental health issues, pain, discomfort. And so
having a caring partner there to talk to the
doula, talk to the healthcare professionals,
talk to the WIC counselors, whoever, to help
be a voice for this woman who may not be able
to articulate or may not, for whatever reason,
be willing to share, to truly share what it is
that she's going through. And I think that that's
just really powerful to acknowledge and lift
up that there is a place, a very important place
and a very important role of the males in this
situation and their mental health matters, too.
Absolutely. It's like for me, I come. We're one
big family for like. Because you have to have
that trust and relationship, not just what the
mom or the mother to be, but you have to have
that trust and relationship with the whole family
unit. Because you got to think you having somebody
that you don't know coming into your space. Do
I trust them? How do I feel about them? You have
to, you know, make sure that you let them know.
I'm not just here to support her. I'm here to
support you as well. I'm here to support the
family as a unit because there may be things
going on that mom don't want to talk about. But
dad is like, look, I don't know how we're going
to do this when she get ready to go back to work.
Help us make a plan. Help us make a plan. Like
she wants to breastfeed. I don't see her breastfeeding
because she got to go back to work. We got kids
in daycare. We got who's going to pick up, who's
going to drop off like different things. And
for me as a community -based doula, it's my job
to be like, okay, you have this problem here,
here, and here. Don't worry about that. I'm going
to see if I can help find some resources to help
you get past it or something to help bridge you
through that until we figure something out. At
least that's one less thing they have to stress.
their stuff's about trying to find. I'm like,
we'll figure it out. Let me see. Let me look
at what type of insurance do you have? Oh, you
have this type of insurance. Let me see what's
in your benefits that you can call the insurance
company and ask for. A lot of people don't realize
how much benefits they have with their insurance
companies, with Medicaid and different types
of UnitedHealthcare, Blue Cross Blue Shield,
all of that stuff. A lot of them. Like recently,
one of my clients was like, I had a healthy blue
and I was able to get a $25 gift card for school
supplies that I didn't even know. Like little
small stuff like that. They don't think about
doing the investigation and seeing what they
can get from these insurance companies. And most
of the time, they're not going to just say, hey,
you know, we're giving this away for free. Which
they probably should do better about, you know,
and that's one of the things. Right. You know,
especially if they know that they're receiving
claims for a woman that's having a baby and,
you know, and then we also have challenges with,
I know I'll speak for myself and Jessica, we're
going to come to you in a second, in that, you
know, I get inundated with so many emails, phone
calls, text messages. And what I love about what
you're sharing, Melba, is that as a community
-based doula, sometimes you can be that extra
brain for a mother, for a couple, for a family,
where, you know, we struggle to have enough brain
power to do all of the things, right? It's like,
yeah, that sounds like a great idea, but who,
when, and where, you know? And so being able
to have someone to say, make this phone call,
ask for this person, hit this extension number,
complete that form, or give me your information
so I can help you get the application started,
right? All those things help to empower people
to be healthier and to better utilize the resources
that are available. But I do believe in transformative
systems change where we should have better health
systems that make a lot of these things more
automated, okay? Take some of the thinking out
of it. And can we use some of this AI technology
and all this other technology for something other
than these frivolous annoyances, right? And so
that also leads me to, you know, Jessica, in
terms of the postpartum, the breastfeeding part,
the care and support, how do you incorporate
the family, the men and boys, right? The sons,
maybe the grandparents and what have you. How
do you see their role in that process related
to breastfeeding and breast health and all that
good stuff, maternal health? Well, I talk a lot.
So my husband had a whole education series about
breastfeeding when I had both kids, but he saw
firsthand. Well, he was just supportive, but
I also demanded support, but that doesn't always
work, but he was very supportive. It was actually
easier on him too, just because there was less
things to do, you know, when you're breastfeeding.
But I think I just pretty much educated him too,
and just let him know the benefits of, you know,
if we breastfeed and if you support me with breastfeeding,
if you're here for me, this is how bad, you know,
it could be better. And, and not just better
with. not as many bottles or we sleep more or
sleep better, but just the health benefits. And
I think that's what got him is just educating
him on the health benefits for the baby and specifically
for me, because you know how they say, if you
breastfeed, you know, you lose weight faster.
It's really not that it's just that you're, you're
literally like getting like expelling and just.
recovering from from pregnancy he could see firsthand
whenever it was feeding time i was like in a
daze like i was high or something because that
what is it the oxytocin is that right melba you
know serotonin it's the good hormones that make
it it's oxytocin too is it oxytocin yeah so but
you can feel it like you could feel it you just
feel so calm i just remember just i just remember
being just you know just chill and i felt good
about myself and i can't say i didn't have postpartum
but i mean i i know that's real i mean i've seen
it but i do think that if it if if it does help
with postpartum and just you know better mental
health, like after a baby or just really, it's
just the changeover of hormones when you have
a baby. Cause it's so quick. As soon as you have
your baby, just the switching the hormone levels
of your body is crazy. So, and I think that's
a lot to do with postpartum, but if, if it works,
then I felt it, but I don't know. I just, I got
my husband involved. He's really the one I talked
to. I mean, I've pretty much have given lessons
to like my oldest daughter, my sister, she's
already, you know, she's a big breastfeeding
supporter, but she also wants to be a doula.
So I have told her about, you know, you should,
but that's, I mean, Melba, but that's a different
conversation. She lives in Raleigh too, but that's
where she lives. But, but no, I just, I just
talk. I just talk a lot. I think that's what
it, at the end of the day, it works. but I didn't
have everybody on board. Like my mom had passed
away. Well, my mom was a supporter with my son
and with my first daughter when I was a teen
mom. But when my daughter was born, my mom had
passed away already like the year before. So
all I had really was my husband's mother, but
she was the type to, well, they're too old to
be breastfeeding. Even after six months, it was
like, well, they were like, are you? you know
so some people you just can't and that does and
that wasn't anything to do with like uh black
women like she's a white woman so that as far
as support and just culture when it comes to
breastfeeding in the south it's really or even
in rural areas in the south is what i'll say
it's across the board so i just say i think the
best thing is to have support where you can find
the best support whether it's a peer counselor
or a doula or just or the right friend group
because you can't always rely you know on your
husband or or the family but if you have a good
support system it really gives you so much more
confidence and then not only you'll be confident
and you know yourself You'll also be teaching
people at the same time. Yeah, you're providing
education, support and helping other people on
their pathway. And I think that that's, you know,
reflects directly back to, like you said, what
kind of keeps you motivated to do this type of
work and why you're so invested in these things
and why you're so passionate about it. You know,
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from questions you didn't ask. Thank you. for
your continued support. And let's keep the conversation
going. And I also appreciate the fact that not
all women are supportive. Sometimes you get your
support from a male in your life, right? That's
very true because my mother -in -law was not
supportive. My husband was very supportive. But
what I also learned is with working, it was rare,
but there were... There was enough times for
me to be like, this could be an issue. Husbands
cannot be supportive because for the strangest
reason, they are jealous. They don't want their
wife to breastfeed. They didn't support it from
before the baby was born. It's just crazy. It's
strange. And I kind of want to dive into that.
I just want to look into that. What is the mentality
going on there? It was strange to the men is
how it was portrayed to me. Like my husband doesn't
want me to do that. He thinks it's weird, you
know, stuff like that. And I couldn't believe
it when I heard it. I think that that's really
important to talk about too, is that there are
a lot of myths, misconceptions. There are people
who confuse a woman's body as being solely a
sexual instrument. as opposed to a conduit of
life that is hers, right? And that, you know,
sometimes in relationships, the way that our
culture and our society has defined what a relationship
is, especially in a heterosexual dynamic, that
somehow there is a man's ownership of a woman's
body. And you're right. We talk about postpartum
for women, but men go through some things too
where they realize that, yeah, you got to share
and you got to wait your turn. And now the priority
in terms of the woman's body is not his sexual
pleasure, but the priority in terms of the woman's
body is the health and welfare of her child and
the baby, whether the baby is... inside of her
body or now has been born and she's now holding
the baby on her lap and breastfeeding. I do think
that there's also some interesting aspects of
people's perceptions of breastfeeding in terms
of how long and this and that because of, and
I did look it up, you know, I'll be Googling
the prolactin and oxytocin effect that women
have and the bonding that happens uniquely between
the mother and the child. Yeah, the bonding is,
it's beautiful. And at the same time, some people
experience it and they say things like it's painful
or it's not comfortable for me or I don't get
that feeling. You know, I had good friends of
mine who did have beautiful, wonderful bonding.
They experienced that. kind of relaxed euphoria.
And it was very easy for them to, you know, continue
to breastfeed and see the benefits of it, not
only in their child's health and wellbeing, but
in their own mental health. And so for me, I
was kind of sad that I didn't get to have that
particular experience, but I know that I bonded
with my child in other ways. And I think that
that's really important for me to bring up in
this discussion because mothers and mothering,
And parental bonding, whether it's between a
mom and her child, where the mom is having challenges
with breastfeeding or isn't able to breastfeed,
or the father who's not equipped to breastfeed
and wants to bond uniquely with their child now
that the child is finally. outside of the woman's
body and he can embrace the child and bond with
the child. So there's a lot of that going on
too. Melba, did you have anything you wanted
to add or Jessica before we move on to the next
topic? No, but I definitely understand what Jessica
was saying that some dads don't, they look at
the mom's breast differently when they start
breastfeeding. And like she said, I think that's
where... a lot of the education and as a doula
that's something that we discuss during um when
we see our clients initially and for like you
know birth and plans and postpartum plan is something
that we discuss how you want to feed your baby
and how dad looks at breastfeeding and to help
get rid of some of that. I don't know what the
right word is, but get rid of some of those negative
thoughts when it comes to breast and or chest
feeding. It's funny you say that. And I'm not
this, my husband, he, he, he never, he just always
seemed to admire me like breastfeeding. Like,
you know, he just would like, I don't know. And
not in a weird way. But he just was so supportive.
And out of all the things that pissed me off
about this man, that just meant a lot to me.
And he was very supportive in my birth plan.
You know, besides the fact, I mean, I understand
he fell asleep. I mean, he... It's not the first
time he fell asleep in a weird situation. He
literally fell asleep while I was talking to
him one time. But I can talk. Y 'all know I can
talk. Yes, Jessica. And I was probably talking
during labor, too. So I probably gave him a story
and he just went to sleep. But no, he was really
supportive. But I heard a couple of moms, too.
It was strange for them. Not because it hurt
or anything. They felt uncomfortable nursing
a baby. They just did not feel comfortable with
it. And it was strange to me to hear that. But
one thing I did learn as a peer counselor is
to not be judgmental, to be open -minded because
again, I did not know hardly anything about the
life of breastfeeding beyond the fact that I
did it. It was easy, no issues. So I just, I'm
really grateful for that one year that I worked
there because That's why I wanted to become a
counselor because there's just so many ways to
like support a woman. Oh, and another thing too,
while we're talking about breastfeeding real
quick, do y 'all remember when the formula shortage
was? Did you ever hear anything about more support,
more encouragement, more education about breastfeeding
ever? It's like, if that, if that right there
doesn't show you that. There needs to be more
support to encourage, you know, for moms to breastfeed.
And I didn't even touch on this. And we might
can have a whole other like podcast about this,
Naisha, but just the fact of not support in the
workplace and moms not knowing their rights when
they go back to work for pumping. Like that's
a whole nother subject. Yeah. Well, you know
what? I don't know if it is a whole nother subject
because one of the next questions that I was
going to ask. What are some of the contributing
factors in our society and our healthcare system
that contributes to some of the, and I'll say
morbidity. So morbidity is different than mortality.
So mortality is the ultimate, right? It is counting
or accounting for people who die. Morbidity is
different because it's accounting for the things
that might challenge someone's mortality, their
well -being, their health, symptoms that can
challenge their mortality, right? So we're thinking
about what are the things that challenge the
health and well -being of birthing people, right?
What are some of the society like... things that
get in the way of that because we have these
crazy maternal and infant mortality issues. And
it's not just about whether or not you got a
doula. It's not just about whether or not you
are able to breastfeed. But as you mentioned,
Jessica, some of it might be related to some
of the policies that we have in our society and
in our culture that make it difficult. for women
and particularly Black women to be able to live,
thrive, survive, and for their infants within
that first year, especially, to live and thrive.
If you could speak on, Jessica, because you got
to start it. I'm going to pull Melba and our
guest, Lena, baby Melba, back into the conversation
to talk about some of the things that you see
in society. Well, number one, six weeks to go
back to work. Like if your job says you have
six weeks, that is not long enough for a mom
to recover physically, mentally, and to even
get into a great breastfeeding routine with her
baby. Six weeks. That's ridiculous. Like I hate
jobs that require moms to go back to work after
six weeks. That is, you're not even ready to
have sex at six weeks yet. That's a whole other
subject, though, because I wanted to talk about
that, about educating moms. Please wait the adequate
amount of time before you dive back in there
because what are you doing? I do know what you're
talking about. I hear stories of young moms and
they're going back in at four weeks. I can't
believe it. But that's another thing. there needs
to be better pay or support from the jobs for
maternity leave. And I cannot believe that a
woman can have a baby and be released from the
hospital within 48 hours. That blows my mind.
Well, so some people would say they'd rather
be at home. I just feel like, yeah, but you know
what I've seen from working where I worked? Tell
us. This wasn't even related to breastfeeding.
When I had women or girl women, they're women
on my breastfeeding program. We had, you know,
we had a good communication. You know, they have
my cell phone because I was part time. So they
could contact me after hours, but they would
come home. And this one girl, for example, she
it was because of high blood pressure. So she
was released within like. 48 hours, maybe less.
But she was having these feelings. And I was
like, honestly, I'm not allowed to help you,
but just go to the ER, please. But she was dealing
with, I don't know if it's preeclampsia or whatever
it is. Preeclampsia. Even though it's like after
the preeclampsia. But there's been other situations
where moms are going home. And they're not getting
the, you know, they're not being looked after.
Like you having a baby is a big deal. Like it's
hard to, especially like at risk people like
this girl was on the heavier side. And I think
the other situations there was, there was something
like, I think one girl had diabetes and, you
know, you can't be releasing people, you know,
from the hospital that quick, not after having
a baby, unless they're like super healthy. But
there needs to at least be some follow up care
or something. So I hear you. I mean, I remember
when my daughter was six weeks old and I looked
at her and I was like, how did my mother leave
me when she had me? And she had to go back to
work because this is little, little micro. And
my daughter was full term, full term. Good weight,
good length, all that other good stuff. But I
was just like, I can't believe I couldn't, I
couldn't, I was financially struggling, but I
was privileged in that I had time to be with
my child. And then when it got to two months
and I looked at my baby, I said, I still ain't
ready. I mean, I didn't leave. I didn't go back
to work on a part -time basis until she was six
months old. or maybe a little older than that.
But, you know, and that had to do with, right,
because we are talking about this high risk,
right? So I was pregnant with her when I was
35. By the time she was born, I was 36. She had
already been diagnosed pre -labor with genetic
disorder down syndrome. And then she had also
been diagnosed with a congenital heart defect,
right? And so she had a lot of growing and healing
and intervening to do but even with that i was
just like my mind was blown Now, she's my one
and only baby. And I know that there's that commercial
that everybody agrees with that says your first
baby, you want to put bubble wrap around them.
And then the next baby, you roll them down the
hall like a bowling ball. Right. You don't even
care to say not to say that you don't love them,
but you're just not as hyper vigilant. Right.
As you were with your first baby. So I never
had that second baby. So all I remember is the
first one and being just hyper, hyper vigilant.
And I agree with you. I think that it's too short.
I think that it's way too short. And I think
that in a lot of ways, it's inhumane to have
to rush back to work and being forced because
you have no choice, right? The other alternative
is that you're homeless, that you lose your health
insurance, that, you know, all the rest, you
lose your car and your transportation because
you can't pay for those things without working.
These are structures and systems in our society
that force people to make decisions that are
not in their own best interest. So Melba, I'm
going to turn to you and Lena. What are some
of the things that you see in our society and
our culture, systems, healthcare system, so on?
that you think contribute to some of the maternal
mortality and infant mortality challenges, especially
if they're the ones that really kind of get your
goat. I want to talk about that. So just to piggyback
a little bit to what Jessica said in regards
to moms getting released out of the hospital
so soon, I feel like because of that, that's
where doulas again come into play. So, you know,
like for instance, the two incidents, Jessica
said one mom, blood pressure was high or she
wasn't feeling a certain type of way. You know,
for the most part, if we have doula clients,
we'd typically follow up with them within 48
to 72 hours, even if it's just a phone call.
If you can't actually go to their house physically,
if it's a phone call or FaceTime or Google me
or Zoom or something, we try to make contact
with them, you know, within that first week when
they come out of the hospital, just to make sure
things are going okay. One of the things like
Jessica said with that is a lot of times the
doctors will say, Oh, you're feeling that way
because you're pregnant. That's normal in pregnancy.
That's typical. That's going to happen. I think
everything is not normal to pregnancy. Or you
can't just chop everything up to it's happening
because you're pregnant. Sometimes look into
it to make sure there is not a real underlying
issue going on that's causing this problem. That's
where some of the mortality rates with African
-American moms go up at. They feel like we can
endure more pain than our counterparts. We can
endure more everything pretty much than our counterparts.
So that's where a lot of it comes from. And some
of the disparities that people may have even
prior to getting pregnant will. come into play
as well if they're homeless before or not have
a stable home or stable food prior to pregnancy
then they get pregnant then you got to worry
about what's going to happen after this baby
when this baby come you got to think about the
mental health is mom okay is she going to leave
this baby somewhere is she going to take her
life the baby life it's like a real big snowball
effect when those things come into play and a
lot of times i'm not going to say all providers
but a lot of providers they don't look into that
aspect of where are you at like if you go to
the health department you just go to the health
department they're not thinking about where you
live in Or where are you going to get your next
meal from? And so that's where, you know, doulas
can help out at because a lot of times, again,
we build this relationship, a trust and relationship
with these clients to help them get to a place
where they feel like they're going to be okay
when they have their babies. And it's really
like systematic racism, pretty much. If you think
about a lot of times. Why is this a big issue
now when it comes to African -Americans and their
maternal mortality or infant mortality? Why is
it a huge issue now? Why do we think? Because
there's more people that's coming out that are,
they have more money than the typical person
that are having issues postpartum. The Serena
effect. You got the Serena Williams. Beyonce
had an issue during her pregnancy. And I can't
remember which one of the judges lost daughter
or daughter -in -law lost their lives during
or after the baby was born. So it's like now
it's like, oh, this is not just happened to regular
common people. We're having issues with people
that have money right now. Why do people that
have money is having issues? So that's a lot
of it. I hope that makes sense. I feel like Jessica
be saying like, I feel like I'm rambling, but
you know. You're not, you're not. I still feel
like I'm rambling way more than you. But no,
I love your perspective. I love that you're a
doula. I think that's so great. I wish. i wish
i don't even think i knew about doulas when i
was pregnant with both kids well when i say both
like the last two kids and i wish that i could
go back in time and i would hire you so fast
look i would hire somebody too like i had three
kids and didn't know anything about like doulas
and for instance right here I'm close to Greenville.
At Vidant, I didn't even know that they had a
volunteer doula program. I'm like, y 'all have
volunteer doulas? Say what? Like, how did I not
know? And if you don't know, you don't know to
ask, hey, is there a support person here that
can help me out through this? Like, you don't
know to ask for things like that, you know? Thank
you for joining us on Questions You Didn't Ask
with me, Naisha Frey, and my guests, Melba Perry
and Jessica Burris. Tune in next week as we continue
our series, From Birth to Beyond, unveiling challenges
of maternal and infant health.