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Welcome back to Questions You Didn't Ask with
me, Naisha Frey, and my guests, Melba Perry and
Jessica Burris. As we continue the series from
birth to beyond, unveiling challenges of maternal
and infant health. Let's get back into the discussion.
And I just love the fact that, you know, like
I mentioned, all three of us have lived experience.
And I just want to speak to a little bit of my
lived experience that I think. really helped
enrich our conversation when we first met and
started sharing so much about, you know, what
our journeys had been like and things that we
had in common and unique things. And that was,
you know, similar to you, Jessica, I listened
to my mom talk about, you know, her experiences
breastfeeding. And I always listened to my mom
also talk about. her experiences or her values
around nutrition and enrichment and recognizing
that everything that's on the shelf in the grocery
store is not always good for you, right? And
how to be a thoughtful consumer, even though
we were low income, we were poor, right? And
how to make the best. you know, and eat the best
that you can and why that's important. And so,
you know, she used to make a comment about how
my sister was a good breastfeeder, but I never
took to it. Right. And so when I became a mother,
I always wanted to breastfeed. And I was fortunate
that. you know, my doctors and nurses and everyone
that surrounded me on my journey. And I like,
I think each one of us on this call was considered
a high risk pregnancy. And I had a child with
a genetic disorder and a congenital heart defect.
And so they were sharing with me about the benefits,
of course, of breastfeeding, but they never really
talked about what some of the challenges might
be with breastfeeding. And so for me, when I
had my baby and it was so exciting and it was
also very stressful and it was my first time
trying to feed her and she was not able to latch.
And then when she did latch, I wasn't producing
enough milk. And so then I was doing different
things to try to help produce enough milk. And
I remember my pediatrician, again, so fortunate.
was very supportive of me. And our practice had
a lactation consultant available for me to go
and visit. And I went and visited and they called
and I went and visited and they checked up and
they did all these things. And I just remember
coming to a point where, you know, I started
to get really depressed and sad and question
my body and wonder like, what was wrong. I deal
with anxiety. So that really heightened my anxiety
that I wasn't able to produce as much and that
I was having to use formula to supplement and
different things like that. And at the same time,
I was in graduate school in the School of Public
Health and studying health behavior and reading
all this stuff about how important it is to feed
your child. And so then I got frustrated. And
I said, well, why isn't anybody empathizing with
the moms who want to but can't? Because there
was usually an assumption that if a mom didn't
breastfeed, it was because she wanted to give
her child, you know, formula or that she was
ashamed of her body or that she hadn't been raised
in a situation that, you know, culturally supported
her. That wasn't any of the case. But no one
ever really talked about. moms who physically
had challenges with breastfeeding, whose child
was physically able to latch, but just was not
interested. And so I revisited the conversation
that I had overheard my mom telling me, and we
really engaged in that conversation about how
I didn't prefer. the breast. And so I just am
always thinking about, again, my show is questions
you didn't ask. I'm thinking about the exceptions.
I'm thinking about the outliers. I'm thinking
about the disparities, the people that are left
out. What are your thoughts? We're going to talk
about so many different things today, but what
are your thoughts and feedback for, and this
is for you too, Melba, but I'm going to start
with Jessica, for moms who were in a position
like me, what types of advice do you give or
insight can you share? Well, like I said, breastfeeding
with it just came. I just never had any issues
with it. So I didn't know I was so far removed
from like the problems and the barriers. Well,
not the barriers. Let me let me go back. But
just the issues people might have with breastfeeding.
So when I became a counselor and did some training,
I just it was so eye opening. But I just that
made me want to like. just help even more the
more I learned about it. So even, and I'm not
trying to sound like, like you said, your mom
said that you didn't take to the breast that
you might not have taken to the breast, but with
more support and just a little bit of like help
or, you know, like educational latching or holding
you to make it better for you, your mouth. The
reason why I say that is because it is. We were
literally that that's that's how we were built,
like from God, you know, like like animals to
breastfeed. So there are issues, but there's
ways to fix those issues. And even if a baby
has a tongue tie or a lip tie and they literally
cannot suck. There needs to be better support
for moms to have to pump, you know, to do that,
especially because most moms, if they're trying
to breastfeed, they want to breastfeed. So with
young moms, my experience with counseling young
moms, they're so inexperienced as a mother period,
because this is usually their first baby. If
they, within the first two weeks, if they're
not, if it's not working for them and they're
not seeing, you know, like a good breastfeeding
situation going on, they are only worried about
feeding their baby, make sure their baby gets
food. they can, they'll get the formula and they
can watch the milk go from the bottle to the
baby. And that puts them at ease. And I totally
understand that, but that's where, you know,
there needs to be more support and more hands
on support because they did want to breastfeed.
And really, if a baby does latch, if it's going
good in the long run. it's going to, you're going
to, it's going to be better. I'm going to say
like, it's just easier if you get a good breastfeeding
thing going on, you know, you're not washing
bottles and it's just, you could sleep better
at night, but I just think there needs to be
more support and education because another thing
too, a lot of moms are under the impression from
my experience of working with these young moms.
They think that they're going to just have a
baby and the baby's going to latch and they're
just going to be having tons and tons of milk.
That part. That's not true. And so when they
don't see a bunch of milk coming out of them
and they just think that they always say, you
always hear people, well, I wasn't making enough
milk. If it was within the first week, you weren't
supposed to make enough milk. You're making just
enough for your baby's little bitty belly because
your body knows what your baby needs. That's
how God made us or God or, you know. i'm not
trying but anyway yeah you're fine jessica our
creator right our creator yes yes we are like
that's literally how we were made if you think
about 500 years ago there was no formula there
was no you know you you made it happen and there
was but there was more community and there was
more support and more and more people looking
out for each other you know but now there's there's
a lack of that And then over the years where
Black women, and this is another thing too, Black
women fed this, the people who built this, you
know, America pretty much. So that, you know,
you've heard the stories about how they sacrificed
their own, you know, to feed the other. And then
when formula came out and you look back and it
was, it was severely. strategically marketed
to a certain community of people. It just became
easier for moms to work and to have formula.
Companies, they make so much money off of formula.
It's ridiculous. That's why the World Health
Organization got involved to limit their promotion
of formula to society. it was hindering people
wanting to breastfeed because the World Health
Organization knows that breastfeeding is best
to make a healthy child. So it's just a lot of
moving parts that it came at me all at once.
Like when I became the peer counselor, I never
gave any thought to all this stuff. So when I
did, it was like, I don't know, it was like on
a high, like, oh my gosh, you know, I learned
this and I can't believe this. It was just amazing.
The most part was I also saw how it affected
mainly the black community because I come from
a very rural place, too. And it's pretty much
50 50. But with the low income clinic where I
worked, it was mostly black moms. And it's not
just through the doctor's offices or the hospitals.
It's also at home, the lack of support at home.
I really appreciate what you shared because,
and I'm going to go to Melba in just a moment
because I believe that she probably has some
rich insight as well. If you're enjoying the
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let's keep the conversation going. But for me,
it was this feeling that, well, they literally
had measuring cups. You know, I was pumping and...
You know, we were measuring how much I was giving
and then supplementing whatever was needed with
formula. And so, like you mentioned, historically,
community -wise, there was different levels of
support for moms to help fill that gap, right?
And so that kind of leads me into where I want
Melba to talk some more about. Different challenges
that moms might be having with breastfeeding
and why, you know, breastfeeding and breastfeeding
support is so important. So Jessica hits like
so many, so many key points when it comes to
the support. And, you know, when you don't have
support at home or. wasn't giving like you, thank
God you had it set up where the IBCLC called
and checked on you, see how it was doing and
following up with you because they knew you wanted
to breastfeed. Everybody don't get that opportunity,
especially in rural areas. And that's where doulas
come in. Community -based doulas, we don't just,
you know, okay. You had your baby. We're going
to see you one time postpartum and that's it.
We continue to follow up with you. We make sure,
hey, how are you doing? There's a piece where
there is some lactation training to help support
moms during that process. Like, are you having
trouble with breastfeeding? What are the troubles
you're having? And how are you doing throughout
the night? So it's like doulas help in that aspect
when it comes to breastfeeding support, because
a lot of times you get trained in how to support
moms that want to breastfeed. And it is difficult
when you're a new mom and you go home and all
you think about is breastfeeding and you're like,
okay, I'm not producing enough milk. Like Jessica
said, how much milk do you think you're supposed
to produce? Your baby's stomach is no bigger
than their is pretty much balled up. So that
helps out also. We don't just stop at the hospital.
We follow you through postpartum. And a lot of
times people don't realize if you're stressed
out, that can affect your milk production. Like
if you're stressed, you're not going to produce
the milk that you need. It's just like if you're
stressed out. Sometimes you're hungry. Sometimes
you're so stressed out you don't want to eat.
It kind of goes hand in hand. So you have to
think about that also. And when I think about
breastfeeding and lactation, I always say to
my clients, you know, we're the only animals
that feed our kids another animal's milk. You
don't see a cow going to a goat and asking a
goat to feed my child and vice versa. So why
are we feeding our kids another animal's milk
when, like Jessica said, the most high, whoever
you worship created you to do this. And then
there's other ways. Like, okay, say, for instance,
you're not able to produce enough milk. or there's
a medical issue why you can't breastfeed, there's
donor milk. You can go get some human donor milk.
They're like, you're going to get somebody else's
milk, another human milk? Well, you go to the
store and you buy cow milk off the shelf. You
don't question that cow milk. Yes. I mean, you
ain't question that powdered milk that's in that
can. what is that powder actually made out of
you know you're questioning powder you're questioning
human milk that another human made that you know
feeds another child which could be your baby
but you don't question the powder milk you don't
question the cow's milk but you question human
donor milk Yes. And what I wanted to add was
there are some women, unlike me, who overproduce.
And when I say overproduce, I'm just meaning
in terms of there's no good or bad, right? I'm
not trying to put any value on that. But women
who produce a lot more milk than what their baby
needs. So it's so interesting, you know, talking
about the creator, how we were made. If people
want to talk about biology and nature and science
and all that other stuff, there's always a balance.
And where there's one who is not able to do or
have enough, there's usually someone who has
more than enough. And I think that that's a very
interesting conversation. To consider when, like
you said, there are resources that are out there,
questions that we didn't ask. There's a lot of
women that don't even know that you can get human
breast milk for your child as an alternative.
You want to know something? What's that? This
is crazy. And this kind of puts things in perspective.
If there's a there's a word and I cannot think
of it, it's a long word, but it starts with something.
But if a baby is so. so many weeks or months
premature, they can't have formula. It will kill
them. Hospitals keep donor milk just for babies
that are born too early or a certain amount of
weeks or months early because there's a word
for it. Necrotizing enterocolitis. That's it.
If that doesn't put things in perspective for
you, how beneficial breast milk is as opposed
to formula. And I'm not talking junk about formula.
We've all, I mean, I had formula, but the thing
is, is it was mind blowing the way breastfeeding
works with how you recover from pregnancy. It's,
it's that I couldn't believe it when I had my
son and I was breastfeeding, like one or two
weeks later, I started getting like contractions,
what felt like contractions. And I'm like, what
is going, you know, but that is exactly what
breastfeeding is supposed to do. It helps shrink
your stomach. It, it, it helps you finish healing.
And that's what I was saying about, you know,
how breastfeeding, it's not just, it is great
for the baby, but it's, it's a natural process
for a mother to recover from pregnancy. I mean,
or from delivery. Absolutely. And it's like,
if your baby's sick, It helps decrease your chances
with different types of cancers as well when
you breastfeed. Your baby's sick. Exactly. It
helps with the serotonins and the hormones. It
helps level all of that stuff out. Your baby's
sick. Your milk knows or your memory glands know
what type of milk to produce to help your baby.
Your body can read what sickness your baby has
and it can adjust the milk to heal your baby.
That's the truth. It's amazing. Melba, I'd like
for you to share with our audience how you include
the woman's partner, her family members into
the birthing process. You mentioned several times
the importance of being a community -based doula.
So we know that like the closest community to
a woman, especially when she's pregnant, is who
her partner is, if they're present, right? If
they're able to be there or not. And then her
family members. And that could be blood family.
That could be family of the heart, right? Who
she considers her close, close village. And from
what I understand, Melba, is that you help to
nurture those connections, but you also bring
in other community resources into that process.
So could you tell us more about the importance
of how you welcome the family and supporting
community resources into this birthing process
as a doula and a community -based doula at that?
Like really, really, really important to me is
to let the family know, first and foremost, I'm
not here to replace anybody. I'm there to support
and pick up when things get a little bit crazy
to help. Like, OK, let's take a pause. Let's
remember what we want to do and bring everything
back together. Because a lot of times. Some families
be like, oh, you got a doula. You don't need
nobody. Like, yeah, we still need you. You're
still the support. I'm just kind of the bridge
to help the medical staff and the partner and
the laboring person get equal, like get on the
same pathway per se. So it's very important that
the family, the partner. whomever knows that
they're still a part of this process so one of
the things i want to know is who is your support
system outside of me like if i wasn't here who's
your support system and what part do they play
in in your in your prenatal care in your laboring
process in your postpartum care a lot of times
you have to also not just think about the the
partner or grandma and grandpa there's kids and
siblings like How are we going to integrate the
kids into this process also? So that's where
a lot of the postpartum doula come into play
for me. Because we need to make sure, okay, we're
here to support you. We're going to take the
baby. Go spend some time with your husband. Or
go spend some time with your partner. Or there's
going to be time for you and the kids for a few
hours. Go take a shower. You guys go do some
self -care stuff. together because they need
to know that, yeah, it's a new baby, but we're
still here and part of the family also. So I
always do not just a prenatal birth plan, but
a postpartum plan. Everybody's going to have
their role in this process. And if dad or whomever
is close to mom, they're going to notice things
being off before anybody did because they know
them on a regular basis. So they're like, you
know, every time you come, she says she's OK.
But I notice she's not really OK. She's doing
this or she's doing that or she used to do this
and now she's not doing it anymore. So we need
their support to be able to support, you know,
mom as much as we can as well. And we don't ever
want the partners to feel left out because they
need our support also. When I'm in there with
my clients and they're having their contractions
and they're trying to do this without no medication,
I look at the partner. I read them and see how
they're feeling. Like, are you okay? Is there
anything you need? Because they're in a position
where their significant other is in pain. It
ain't nothing they can do about it. So they need
support. And sometimes like I just recently had
a birth. The mom was like, I want to go natural.
I don't want a medication. I don't want to do
anything. And I'm looking at this dad and he
is like every time she have a contraction, he's
dying. Not literally dying, but it's like it's
affecting him. Make it stop. Can you make it
stop? And I just, you know, made eye contact
with him. And I looked at her. I was like. you
know, it's okay if you get some medication to
help ease this off a little bit. She was like,
no, I want to do it. I was like, you know, you
went further with no medication with this birth
than you did with the first birth. So either
way, you're in a good situation. You did natural
for as much as you can tolerate it. It's okay.
And she was like, no, I want to do it. And I
looked at him and she kind of looked at him.
And she looked back at me. I said, it's OK. And
he said, it's OK. I don't want to see you in
this much pain. So she was like, OK, I'll get
something. So it's like you don't want to see
your partner in pain like that. And they don't
want to be the one to say you need to get the
medication because they want to. follow you and
do as much as you want to do as well. And they
don't want to be the one that's to blame. It's
your fault that I went and got the medication.
If it wasn't for you saying anything, I wouldn't
have never got it. So we're there to support
everybody in that room. Thank you for joining
us on Questions You Didn't Ask with me, Nyesha
Frey, and my guests, Melba Perry and Jessica
Burris. Tune in next week as we continue our
series, From Birth to Beyond, unveiling challenges
of maternal and infant health.