WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:02.500 Hey y 'all, welcome to Questions You Didn't Ask. 00:00:02.839 --> 00:00:07.179 Did you know that this very spot could be showcasing 00:00:07.179 --> 00:00:10.320 your business or event? Whether it's an audio 00:00:10.320 --> 00:00:14.460 ad on our podcast, or a visual ad on our new 00:00:14.460 --> 00:00:18.100 YouTube station, or even both, we've got the 00:00:18.100 --> 00:00:21.620 space for you. Nyesha Frey Consulting is reaching 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.420 a growing audience of over a thousand leaders 00:00:24.420 --> 00:00:27.839 who are passionate about health equity, social 00:00:27.839 --> 00:00:32.070 justice, and civil rights activism. These are 00:00:32.070 --> 00:00:35.329 professionals just like you working across higher 00:00:35.329 --> 00:00:40.409 education, research, healthcare, nonprofit, government, 00:00:40.590 --> 00:00:44.030 and even public health sectors. If you're ready 00:00:44.030 --> 00:00:46.630 to get your message in front of a dedicated and 00:00:46.630 --> 00:00:52.469 engaged audience, send me an email at naishafrayconsultingllc 00:00:52.469 --> 00:00:57.149 at gmail .com. Let's talk about how we can help 00:00:57.149 --> 00:00:59.710 you connect with the people who need to hear 00:00:59.710 --> 00:01:02.829 about your services and products that advance 00:01:02.829 --> 00:01:06.969 health equity and wellness. Don't miss out. Get 00:01:06.969 --> 00:01:09.269 in the mix and let's make an impact together. 00:01:19.909 --> 00:01:23.170 So far this season, we've been talking to moms 00:01:23.170 --> 00:01:25.489 who advocate for individuals with disabilities 00:01:25.489 --> 00:01:28.370 and behavioral health challenges. We've also 00:01:28.370 --> 00:01:31.370 covered the unique sexual and reproductive health 00:01:31.370 --> 00:01:35.450 needs for women over 40. Now we're taking a deeper 00:01:35.450 --> 00:01:38.349 dive into a crucial issue related to women's 00:01:38.349 --> 00:01:42.349 health equity, maternal and infant health equity. 00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:45.650 As you know, I love going on these intellectual 00:01:45.650 --> 00:01:48.709 and experiential journeys with you. But before 00:01:48.709 --> 00:01:52.069 we get into today's topic, I want to set the 00:01:52.069 --> 00:01:54.409 stage with some key terms that are essential 00:01:54.409 --> 00:01:57.269 to understanding maternal health challenges. 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:01.319 These terms might not at all come up during today's 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:05.280 episode, but they will help provide context for 00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:07.780 what's at stake when we talk about maternal and 00:02:07.780 --> 00:02:10.460 infant health. Let's start with the pregnancy 00:02:10.460 --> 00:02:17.099 -related mortality ratio, abbreviated PRMR. This 00:02:17.099 --> 00:02:20.180 ratio estimates the number of pregnancy -related 00:02:20.180 --> 00:02:26.009 deaths per 100 ,000 live births. Essentially, 00:02:26.069 --> 00:02:29.870 for every 100 ,000 babies born, this ratio tells 00:02:29.870 --> 00:02:33.870 us how many mothers lose their lives during or 00:02:33.870 --> 00:02:37.969 shortly after childbirth. It's a painful statistic 00:02:37.969 --> 00:02:41.629 that shows how dangerous pregnancy can be for 00:02:41.629 --> 00:02:45.330 some women. Another term that may come up is 00:02:45.330 --> 00:02:48.729 pregnancy -related deaths, which tracks deaths 00:02:48.729 --> 00:02:52.969 within a year of pregnancy. Yes, that means we 00:02:52.969 --> 00:02:55.990 start counting as soon as the pregnancy begins, 00:02:56.430 --> 00:03:00.569 not just after the baby is born. The maternal 00:03:00.569 --> 00:03:04.530 mortality rate is also key. You've likely heard 00:03:04.530 --> 00:03:07.650 this term in the news, and we touched on it in 00:03:07.650 --> 00:03:11.650 Season 2, Series 2, titled, I Called Out, But 00:03:11.650 --> 00:03:14.949 They Didn't Hear Me, where we explored the harrowing 00:03:14.949 --> 00:03:18.750 experiences of Dr. Marianne Faroe. She was not 00:03:18.750 --> 00:03:21.960 just a patient. but a lead physician in the very 00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:25.759 hospital where she gave birth. And even her colleagues 00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:29.960 ignored her cries for help during her traumatic 00:03:29.960 --> 00:03:33.680 delivery. Despite her medical expertise and knowledge 00:03:33.680 --> 00:03:36.919 of her own body, it wasn't until she escalated 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:39.560 her calls for help to higher level administrators 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:44.120 and physicians that anyone intervened. Her story 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.680 is a powerful reminder of how crucial it is to 00:03:47.680 --> 00:03:50.620 listen to Black women when they advocate for 00:03:50.620 --> 00:03:55.759 themselves. Next is infant mortality, which represents 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.780 the number of babies who die before their first 00:03:58.780 --> 00:04:03.199 birthday compared to every 1 ,000 live births. 00:04:03.300 --> 00:04:06.680 This statistic explains why many parents go all 00:04:06.680 --> 00:04:09.780 out for that first birthday. It's not just a 00:04:09.780 --> 00:04:13.919 milestone. It's a survival story. Some parents 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:16.139 may seem over the top in their celebrations, 00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:19.500 but the truth is that this is a big deal, especially 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:22.459 when you consider how fragile life can be in 00:04:22.459 --> 00:04:26.060 that first year. We also need to talk about fetal 00:04:26.060 --> 00:04:29.360 deaths or stillbirths, which refer to pregnancy 00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:33.079 loss after 20 weeks. This is one of the most 00:04:33.079 --> 00:04:36.019 heartbreaking topics, and it's something many 00:04:36.019 --> 00:04:39.600 parents never talk about, even though it's more 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.810 common than people think. It's important to know 00:04:42.810 --> 00:04:46.189 that in many cases, doctors and scientists don't 00:04:46.189 --> 00:04:48.810 have clear answers as to why stillbirths happen. 00:04:49.889 --> 00:04:52.670 That's why organizations like the March of Dimes 00:04:52.670 --> 00:04:56.029 put so much effort into research to find answers 00:04:56.029 --> 00:05:00.449 and hopefully prevent these tragedies. But even 00:05:00.449 --> 00:05:03.189 with all the science in the world, sometimes 00:05:03.189 --> 00:05:06.470 there's just nothing a mother or parent can do 00:05:06.470 --> 00:05:10.870 to prevent it. Now. Let's dig into the disparities 00:05:10.870 --> 00:05:14.430 in maternal and infant health, particularly for 00:05:14.430 --> 00:05:18.509 Black women. A 2023 Kaiser Family Foundation 00:05:18.509 --> 00:05:21.189 report found that Black women are over three 00:05:21.189 --> 00:05:24.870 times more likely to die from pregnancy -related 00:05:24.870 --> 00:05:28.490 causes compared to white women. This statistic 00:05:28.490 --> 00:05:32.810 is beyond alarming and points to a serious issue 00:05:32.810 --> 00:05:35.629 in the healthcare system. One of the primary 00:05:35.629 --> 00:05:38.800 causes of these deaths is cardiovascular disease, 00:05:39.160 --> 00:05:42.480 and the lack of adequate prenatal and postnatal 00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:47.439 care only exasperates the problem. In fact, Black 00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:49.980 women are almost twice as likely as white women 00:05:49.980 --> 00:05:55.420 to have late or no prenatal care at all. Beyond 00:05:55.420 --> 00:05:58.500 maternal deaths, we see a stark difference in 00:05:58.500 --> 00:06:01.819 infant health outcomes. Black infants are over 00:06:01.819 --> 00:06:05.360 twice as likely to die before their first birthday. 00:06:05.870 --> 00:06:08.790 compared to white infants. The leading causes 00:06:08.790 --> 00:06:12.589 of infant mortality include birth defects, preterm 00:06:12.589 --> 00:06:16.370 birth, low birth weight, and complications during 00:06:16.370 --> 00:06:19.629 pregnancy. But what's behind these disparities? 00:06:20.209 --> 00:06:23.410 One explanation is the weathering hypothesis, 00:06:24.069 --> 00:06:27.490 which suggests that the cumulative effects of 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:31.009 racism and stress take a toll on Black women's 00:06:31.009 --> 00:06:35.209 health over time. The constant exposure to these 00:06:35.209 --> 00:06:38.949 stressors wears down their bodies, leading to 00:06:38.949 --> 00:06:42.509 poorer health outcomes. Connected to the weathering 00:06:42.509 --> 00:06:45.829 hypothesis is the concept of allostatic load. 00:06:46.250 --> 00:06:50.449 This term refers to the physiological wear and 00:06:50.449 --> 00:06:53.870 tear that results from chronic stress over time. 00:06:55.029 --> 00:06:58.790 Over time, this stress overloads the body's systems. 00:06:59.610 --> 00:07:03.269 increasing vulnerability to illness, and making 00:07:03.269 --> 00:07:07.290 pregnancy riskier for Black women. The weathering 00:07:07.290 --> 00:07:10.470 hypothesis and allostatic load provide a framework 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:13.250 for understanding why Black women, regardless 00:07:13.250 --> 00:07:16.949 of their income or education, often face worse 00:07:16.949 --> 00:07:18.829 health outcomes than their white counterparts. 00:07:20.560 --> 00:07:23.899 In season two, series two, we touched on societal 00:07:23.899 --> 00:07:26.980 stressors that impact Black women's health from 00:07:26.980 --> 00:07:29.680 economic disparities to daily encounters with 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:33.579 racism and the cumulative impact of these stressors 00:07:33.579 --> 00:07:37.839 is real and measurable. To give you a concrete 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.519 example, a 2023 Johns Hopkins study cited research 00:07:41.519 --> 00:07:45.180 showing that the wealthiest Black women in California 00:07:45.180 --> 00:07:49.579 face a higher risk of maternal mortality. than 00:07:49.579 --> 00:07:53.639 the least wealthy white women. Income alone doesn't 00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:56.879 explain these outcomes. Racism and discrimination 00:07:56.879 --> 00:08:01.000 do. It's not just about individual health. This 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.019 is a community issue, a family issue, and yes, 00:08:05.240 --> 00:08:09.639 even a men's health issue. When a mother dies, 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:13.660 it impacts fathers, partners, and children too. 00:08:14.439 --> 00:08:17.720 Maternal health is family health, and family 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:21.899 health is community health. Take a deep breath 00:08:21.899 --> 00:08:24.920 with me. I know this is heavy, but it's essential 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:27.560 that we understand the depth of these issues 00:08:27.560 --> 00:08:31.600 if we want to create real change. Maternal and 00:08:31.600 --> 00:08:34.440 infant health equity isn't just about health 00:08:34.440 --> 00:08:37.899 care. It's about addressing societal structures, 00:08:38.080 --> 00:08:41.340 supporting mothers and families, and making sure 00:08:41.340 --> 00:08:43.820 that our systems don't fail the most vulnerable. 00:08:44.740 --> 00:08:48.389 And with that, I'm excited to get into today's 00:08:48.389 --> 00:08:51.649 conversation. You're in for a rich, informative 00:08:51.649 --> 00:08:54.210 discussion about maternal and infant health equity 00:08:54.210 --> 00:08:57.350 that will open your eyes to the real challenges 00:08:57.350 --> 00:09:01.309 and hopefully inspire action. Let's get into 00:09:01.309 --> 00:09:03.629 the heart of the matter with our guests, Melba 00:09:03.629 --> 00:09:08.470 Perry and Jessica Burris. Melba Perry is a dedicated 00:09:08.470 --> 00:09:11.889 community -based doula. with a heartfelt passion 00:09:11.889 --> 00:09:14.970 for offering comprehensive support to individuals 00:09:14.970 --> 00:09:18.629 and families. Her mission is to ensure that you 00:09:18.629 --> 00:09:22.370 receive not only the medical care you need, but 00:09:22.370 --> 00:09:25.289 also the compassionate guidance and understanding 00:09:25.289 --> 00:09:28.129 that can truly make a difference during this 00:09:28.129 --> 00:09:31.409 challenging time. Melba's approach to doula care 00:09:31.409 --> 00:09:35.070 is rooted in a holistic perspective. She also 00:09:35.070 --> 00:09:37.590 enjoys assisting families that are embarking 00:09:37.590 --> 00:09:40.440 on the journey of high -risk pregnancies. affected 00:09:40.440 --> 00:09:44.519 by genetic disorders, as she has personal experiences 00:09:44.519 --> 00:09:47.840 with a high -risk pregnancy. Beyond the clinical 00:09:47.840 --> 00:09:51.320 aspects, she provides emotional support, companionship, 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:54.620 and an open heart to listen. She understands 00:09:54.620 --> 00:09:57.659 that each aspect of your journey is interconnected, 00:09:57.879 --> 00:10:00.720 and she's committed to nurturing your overall 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:04.399 well -being. Melba firmly believes in the strength 00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:07.399 of the community. Through a network of support, 00:10:07.980 --> 00:10:10.960 Melba connects you with local resources, support 00:10:10.960 --> 00:10:14.500 groups, and organizations that can enhance your 00:10:14.500 --> 00:10:18.039 journey. You are not alone on this path. And 00:10:18.039 --> 00:10:21.240 together, Melba will assist in building a network 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:25.840 that uplifts and empowers you. As your doula, 00:10:25.980 --> 00:10:28.600 Melba is dedicated to helping you make informed 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:32.139 decisions that align with your values, beliefs, 00:10:32.460 --> 00:10:36.649 and desires. She also offers educational sessions 00:10:36.649 --> 00:10:40.529 that help demystify genetic disorders and high 00:10:40.529 --> 00:10:43.570 -risk pregnancies, empowering you to understand 00:10:43.570 --> 00:10:48.070 your situation more deeply. Jessica Burris is 00:10:48.070 --> 00:10:51.470 a passionate advocate dedicated to improving 00:10:51.470 --> 00:10:54.710 Black maternal health, with a particular focus 00:10:54.710 --> 00:10:58.110 on enhancing the care, support, and resources 00:10:58.110 --> 00:11:01.590 available to Black mothers, especially regarding 00:11:01.590 --> 00:11:05.750 breastfeeding. At 44 years old, Jessica is not 00:11:05.750 --> 00:11:09.690 only a wife and mother of three, but also a former 00:11:09.690 --> 00:11:12.710 breastfeeding counselor who draws from both her 00:11:12.710 --> 00:11:15.289 professional and personal experience to fuel 00:11:15.289 --> 00:11:18.970 her advocacy. Having witnessed firsthand the 00:11:18.970 --> 00:11:21.970 challenges that Black mothers face, from inadequate 00:11:21.970 --> 00:11:25.190 health care access to societal barriers that 00:11:25.190 --> 00:11:28.269 discourage breastfeeding, Jessica is committed 00:11:28.269 --> 00:11:31.960 to driving change. She supports programs that 00:11:31.960 --> 00:11:36.200 provide education and resources to empower Black 00:11:36.200 --> 00:11:39.919 mothers to make informed decisions about their 00:11:39.919 --> 00:11:44.179 health and their babies. Through her work, Jessica 00:11:44.179 --> 00:11:47.720 is helping to build a stronger, healthier future 00:11:47.720 --> 00:11:51.720 for families and communities. Thank you so much, 00:11:51.840 --> 00:11:55.340 ladies, for joining me. So we're going to jump 00:11:55.340 --> 00:11:58.419 right into this conversation with our first question. 00:11:58.970 --> 00:12:01.429 And that is a little bit of a selfish question, 00:12:01.590 --> 00:12:03.629 but a good question nonetheless for our audience. 00:12:03.970 --> 00:12:07.850 Tell me, Melba and Jessica, why did you decide 00:12:07.850 --> 00:12:11.090 to come on Questions You Didn't Ask to discuss 00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:15.090 maternal health equity and related topics? So 00:12:15.090 --> 00:12:19.429 for me, just the title itself, Questions We Didn't 00:12:19.429 --> 00:12:23.460 Ask, there are so many questions that We didn't 00:12:23.460 --> 00:12:27.419 ask because we didn't know to ask them. And that 00:12:27.419 --> 00:12:30.659 I wanted to just put out there, here are some 00:12:30.659 --> 00:12:33.500 questions to think about to ask. And if you don't, 00:12:33.500 --> 00:12:36.360 because if you don't know that certain things 00:12:36.360 --> 00:12:38.899 are available, you won't know to ask for it. 00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:42.620 So that's basically my reason to wanting to be 00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:46.259 a part of the show. Jessica, what stood out to 00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:49.299 you when I reached out and asked for you to join 00:12:49.299 --> 00:12:51.799 me today on questions you didn't ask to discuss? 00:12:52.269 --> 00:12:56.870 maternal health equity and related topics. Well, 00:12:57.029 --> 00:12:59.549 I knew when I met you for the first time almost 00:12:59.549 --> 00:13:03.250 a year ago, and I learned about what you did 00:13:03.250 --> 00:13:05.710 for your profession and the different topics 00:13:05.710 --> 00:13:07.769 you talk about, especially relating to Black 00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:10.870 women. Black maternal health is something I've 00:13:10.870 --> 00:13:13.509 never given a lot of thought about when it comes 00:13:13.509 --> 00:13:15.950 specifically to Black women. But the older I've 00:13:15.950 --> 00:13:20.389 gotten, I'm 44 now, I have friends and family 00:13:20.909 --> 00:13:23.629 that I've witnessed go through certain things 00:13:23.629 --> 00:13:26.730 and not receiving the care that they should or 00:13:26.730 --> 00:13:29.570 the answers that they need. And I'm looking it 00:13:29.570 --> 00:13:33.710 up on Google, Dr. Google, just do this, do that, 00:13:33.769 --> 00:13:35.389 but they're not getting the same feedback from 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:38.929 their doctors. But also I had kids, I had my 00:13:38.929 --> 00:13:43.049 last two kids at 35 and 37 and I already knew 00:13:43.049 --> 00:13:44.970 I wanted to breastfeed. I knew about breastfeeding, 00:13:45.049 --> 00:13:47.730 but what I didn't know until I became a counselor 00:13:47.730 --> 00:13:51.539 is how breastfeeding is so important. to not 00:13:51.539 --> 00:13:54.659 just the baby, but to the recovery of the mother 00:13:54.659 --> 00:13:58.679 postpartum. And that really fascinated me. And 00:13:58.679 --> 00:14:02.679 that just knowing that and seeing how that wasn't 00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:05.519 even education wasn't provided across the board, 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:10.480 especially to, you know, black women. It just, 00:14:10.580 --> 00:14:12.779 it blew my mind and it made me want to just dive 00:14:12.779 --> 00:14:16.039 in and find all the ways that I could support 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:20.019 and be a part of, of making that better. Yeah. 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.980 Well, I appreciate you both for answering the 00:14:22.980 --> 00:14:27.679 call. I can share that, you know, we met at a 00:14:27.679 --> 00:14:31.820 time when we were trying to connect as mothers, 00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:36.480 right? And trying to get some respite from mothering 00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:41.159 and being able to learn more about how to take 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:43.980 care of ourselves, how to take care of our families. 00:14:44.320 --> 00:14:48.980 And in that space, we were surrounded by... women 00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:51.500 that came from all different types of backgrounds 00:14:51.500 --> 00:14:55.100 and walks of life. And we recognize that maternal 00:14:55.100 --> 00:14:58.559 health, breastfeeding, high -risk pregnancy, 00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:02.159 genetic disorders, and a variety of other things 00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:04.639 are common to, you know, concerns about that 00:15:04.639 --> 00:15:07.299 are common to so many different women. But in 00:15:07.299 --> 00:15:09.919 our space, in our time, you know, we really got 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.379 a chance to kind of dive into our shared identity, 00:15:13.539 --> 00:15:17.539 right? As women of color, women of African or 00:15:17.539 --> 00:15:21.200 African -American ancestry, and recognizing that 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:24.500 as much as we relate to all of the women that 00:15:24.500 --> 00:15:27.120 were at that retreat, there were certain unique 00:15:27.120 --> 00:15:30.399 experiences that we had that were different. 00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:33.679 And so while we have this discussion, we're going 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.779 to talk about. maternal health and breastfeeding 00:15:37.779 --> 00:15:42.440 as it relates to a broad population, right? And 00:15:42.440 --> 00:15:45.379 what women need to know in general. But we'll 00:15:45.379 --> 00:15:49.179 pay a little bit more close attention to our 00:15:49.179 --> 00:15:53.059 Black and African -American sisters because we 00:15:53.059 --> 00:15:57.080 know all too well about these personal stories 00:15:57.080 --> 00:16:02.879 of people not getting what they need and being 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:07.240 able to witness health. inequities, being able 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.659 to witness health disparities, and recognizing 00:16:11.659 --> 00:16:16.659 that women of all ethnicities deserve the best 00:16:16.659 --> 00:16:19.799 care possible. But when you see that women in 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.600 general are struggling to get that care, and 00:16:22.600 --> 00:16:25.240 then Black women in particular are especially 00:16:25.240 --> 00:16:28.809 struggling. It kind of pulls us in because we 00:16:28.809 --> 00:16:31.210 can relate to these women. And I think that, 00:16:31.210 --> 00:16:33.090 you know, that's really important in terms of 00:16:33.090 --> 00:16:35.750 what motivates us to have these discussions is 00:16:35.750 --> 00:16:38.289 that if there's things that we have learned on 00:16:38.289 --> 00:16:42.049 our journey that we can pass on to help the next 00:16:42.049 --> 00:16:46.210 person and the next healthcare system and the 00:16:46.210 --> 00:16:51.370 next health policy and the next, you know, administration. 00:16:52.350 --> 00:16:57.029 then let us do that. We're not here to just make 00:16:57.029 --> 00:16:59.990 an impact in one space, but we're hoping that 00:16:59.990 --> 00:17:02.750 our voice and what we've learned from other women 00:17:02.750 --> 00:17:06.170 can be used in a number of different spaces that 00:17:06.170 --> 00:17:09.490 can drive change. If you're enjoying the show 00:17:09.490 --> 00:17:12.690 as much as we love creating it, consider showing 00:17:12.690 --> 00:17:16.650 your support by buying us a cup of coffee. Visit 00:17:16.650 --> 00:17:22.690 buymeacoffee .com slash Nyesha Frey O. That's 00:17:22.690 --> 00:17:29.890 buymeacoffee .com forward slash Nyesha Frey O, 00:17:30.150 --> 00:17:35.289 all one word. Each cup is just $5 and every single 00:17:35.289 --> 00:17:38.950 one helps us continue to produce, develop, and 00:17:38.950 --> 00:17:42.049 sustain the high quality content you've come 00:17:42.049 --> 00:17:45.109 to expect from questions you didn't ask. Thank 00:17:45.109 --> 00:17:48.009 you for your continued support and let's keep 00:17:48.009 --> 00:17:52.930 the conversation going. So Melba. I introduced 00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:57.849 you as the doula of our trio. And so can you 00:17:57.849 --> 00:18:02.289 explain what a doula is and what motivated you 00:18:02.289 --> 00:18:06.410 to become one? So, and I'm sorry, you might hear 00:18:06.410 --> 00:18:08.150 my kids in the background because my daughter's 00:18:08.150 --> 00:18:14.329 amazing. So a doula is a non -medical support 00:18:14.329 --> 00:18:21.220 person that helps moms. You know, when they are 00:18:21.220 --> 00:18:27.119 preparing for labor, birth and postpartum and 00:18:27.119 --> 00:18:29.779 more so help them advocate through the health 00:18:29.779 --> 00:18:33.839 care system. You know, African -Americans, our 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:38.759 maternal mortality is three to four times higher 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.200 than our counterparts. We have a higher risk 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:47.210 of having premature labor. We have a higher risk 00:18:47.210 --> 00:18:52.009 of C -sections. And there's things that we can 00:18:52.009 --> 00:18:55.430 ask for that we don't know that we can ask for. 00:18:55.569 --> 00:19:00.829 And I myself, as a now doula and educated on 00:19:00.829 --> 00:19:03.269 the health system, and I've been working as a 00:19:03.269 --> 00:19:07.029 medical assistant for 20 plus years, didn't realize 00:19:07.029 --> 00:19:12.390 some of the stuff that a mom can ask for. During 00:19:12.390 --> 00:19:17.069 that prenatal care and labor. So, you know, helping 00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:21.049 them navigate through that is very important 00:19:21.049 --> 00:19:25.349 to me, especially the way statistics are. The 00:19:25.349 --> 00:19:27.970 recent March of Dimes report came out. They were 00:19:27.970 --> 00:19:30.930 hoping we'll get a better grade, but here in 00:19:30.930 --> 00:19:32.710 North Carolina, we're actually in the worst grade. 00:19:32.769 --> 00:19:36.170 We're a D plus. And North Carolina is not a huge 00:19:36.170 --> 00:19:41.039 state. So to say you're a D plus in comparison 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:46.140 to other larger states says a lot right there 00:19:46.140 --> 00:19:49.559 on its own. One of the things that brought me 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:56.079 into this is back in 2020, my son, we lost him 00:19:56.079 --> 00:19:58.980 to a car accident. He was hit by a car and it 00:19:58.980 --> 00:20:02.799 was like, okay, I have the two other kids that 00:20:02.799 --> 00:20:07.220 I have to lift. for and I had to find something 00:20:07.220 --> 00:20:12.359 to refocus on and and that's going to bring life 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:16.900 into me and what more what better way to help 00:20:16.900 --> 00:20:19.900 bring life back into myself and help other moms 00:20:19.900 --> 00:20:24.779 bring life into this world and so for me it's 00:20:24.779 --> 00:20:29.390 like you know what I always wanted to go to be 00:20:29.390 --> 00:20:31.990 a midwife. And I'm like, okay, I'm 44, almost 00:20:31.990 --> 00:20:34.390 45 years old. I'm not about to go to nobody's 00:20:34.390 --> 00:20:36.789 nursing school right now. What's the best way 00:20:36.789 --> 00:20:39.690 for me to get this going? And so that's what 00:20:39.690 --> 00:20:47.009 I did. And my grandmother was a town midwife 00:20:47.009 --> 00:20:50.349 back home in Jamaica. So she helped actually 00:20:50.349 --> 00:20:56.730 deliver babies within the town of Jamaica. those 00:20:56.730 --> 00:21:00.029 babies were her own grandchildren. She delivered 00:21:00.029 --> 00:21:03.430 one of my sisters and several of my cousins. 00:21:03.630 --> 00:21:06.670 So it's kind of like in the genes almost. I couldn't 00:21:06.670 --> 00:21:09.789 run away. You only can run away from your calling 00:21:09.789 --> 00:21:13.509 for but so long. There you go. And you were inching 00:21:13.509 --> 00:21:16.670 toward it. Anyway, do you mind sharing with our 00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:20.029 audience a little bit more about your academic 00:21:20.029 --> 00:21:22.450 training and your professional training? And 00:21:22.450 --> 00:21:28.200 how did you What did you have to do to become 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.740 a doula? Because you are a lot of different things. 00:21:31.339 --> 00:21:37.619 I am. So I did my initial training during COVID. 00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:41.099 You know, everything was available online. So 00:21:41.099 --> 00:21:46.680 I paid for training through an organization called 00:21:46.680 --> 00:21:50.680 Maternity Wives. And so I did that training and 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:53.259 I'm like, okay. Here we go. I'm going to start 00:21:53.259 --> 00:21:55.759 this up. And I did it and started doing birth. 00:21:56.000 --> 00:22:01.079 And then I came across UNC, had a project called 00:22:01.079 --> 00:22:03.740 A Cure for Moms that was just getting ready to 00:22:03.740 --> 00:22:08.000 get started. So I signed up to be a part of that 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.519 project and did some community -based training 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:15.680 with them to be more on the community -based 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:22.029 side as well. And so things happened. I was not 00:22:22.029 --> 00:22:24.930 in a good space mentally at that time when it 00:22:24.930 --> 00:22:26.829 was time to start the project and do the dual 00:22:26.829 --> 00:22:30.430 portion of the project. And for me, it was very 00:22:30.430 --> 00:22:33.690 important that I'm in a good mental space when 00:22:33.690 --> 00:22:36.369 I'm helping these moms transition their baby 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:40.430 into the world. You don't want any type of energy 00:22:40.430 --> 00:22:43.930 that's not good to be in a space like that. That's 00:22:43.930 --> 00:22:47.980 so sacred, in my opinion. So I stepped back from 00:22:47.980 --> 00:22:49.940 the doula portion of the project and started 00:22:49.940 --> 00:22:53.440 working on some training and recruitment. And 00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:57.940 then I did another training with Dona through 00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:03.059 a project with ECU. And so now I'm working, you 00:23:03.059 --> 00:23:07.940 know, with them on some stuff as far as doula 00:23:07.940 --> 00:23:11.519 training. So I did several types of training 00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:17.710 as a doula and then to become a doula. And then 00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:21.049 I also have a background of being a medical assistant, 00:23:21.230 --> 00:23:26.069 which helped out a lot in this journey because 00:23:26.069 --> 00:23:29.829 I do have some sense of what's going on in the 00:23:29.829 --> 00:23:33.470 medical field and in the health care system in 00:23:33.470 --> 00:23:36.890 that space. And it sounds like you have a lot 00:23:36.890 --> 00:23:39.089 of experience working with two major health care 00:23:39.089 --> 00:23:44.180 systems, UNC Health and then ECU. Yes, yes. That 00:23:44.180 --> 00:23:50.859 is true. It's a lot, but to me, it's all worth 00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:54.900 it. No matter how many more trainings I have 00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:59.619 to go through, I'm going to do it. What keeps 00:23:59.619 --> 00:24:01.920 you committed to this work, Melba? And then I'm 00:24:01.920 --> 00:24:03.759 going to turn to you, Jessica, with another question. 00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.319 Oh, what keeps me committed is seeing the numbers. 00:24:10.950 --> 00:24:15.210 not going in the right direction. Once I see 00:24:15.210 --> 00:24:19.670 those numbers going in the right direction, I 00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:23.269 be like, okay, I can breathe now. But I still 00:24:23.269 --> 00:24:27.990 would not stop. I would want to say, okay, now 00:24:27.990 --> 00:24:30.349 they see why it's important to have a doula within 00:24:30.349 --> 00:24:33.869 the healthcare system. Now moms see why it's 00:24:33.869 --> 00:24:36.849 important to have a doula in the room. Now dads 00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:41.039 see, now grandmas see. Now everyone see that 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.240 doulas are not an accessory. It's necessary. 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.880 You know, people think, oh, you got a doula. 00:24:48.900 --> 00:24:51.579 What you got a doula for? You done had four or 00:24:51.579 --> 00:24:55.220 five kids. Yeah. But how many of those births 00:24:55.220 --> 00:24:58.380 was traumatic? How many of those births could 00:24:58.380 --> 00:25:01.579 have been more beautiful births if you would 00:25:01.579 --> 00:25:07.539 have had a doula? So I don't. Just my drive is 00:25:07.539 --> 00:25:10.779 to keep going until everyone accepts doulas. 00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:16.000 Until the health care systems and insurance companies 00:25:16.000 --> 00:25:19.900 start paying for doulas, that's the goal. Because 00:25:19.900 --> 00:25:22.700 the people that actually need the doulas can't 00:25:22.700 --> 00:25:26.319 really afford doulas. And that's my problem. 00:25:26.880 --> 00:25:30.559 Right, right. Because we're talking about, you 00:25:30.559 --> 00:25:34.079 know. Black women, we're talking about women 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.160 in the South, you know, and oftentimes, you know, 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:40.559 we know in general, most people don't have enough 00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:44.039 insurance to go around. Right. And so that is 00:25:44.039 --> 00:25:47.299 a problem. Even if you're insured, you might 00:25:47.299 --> 00:25:50.240 not have enough insurance. And then for those 00:25:50.240 --> 00:25:53.460 who are not insured, there's definitely not enough 00:25:53.460 --> 00:25:56.759 coverage to help them get the. the comprehensive 00:25:56.759 --> 00:25:59.539 healthcare and the holistic healthcare that you 00:25:59.539 --> 00:26:05.220 advocate so valiantly for. So Jessica, I want 00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:07.859 to talk with you a little bit about your journey. 00:26:07.940 --> 00:26:11.099 I see in your bio that, you know, you're a former 00:26:11.099 --> 00:26:14.539 breastfeeding counselor. And I remember from 00:26:14.539 --> 00:26:16.640 our conversation, you mentioned something about 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:20.960 peer support. Can you tell us more about your 00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:24.539 experience in that role and how you got there? 00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.599 Okay. So I worked as a breastfeeding peer counselor 00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.700 with my local WIC office and I knew I was a, 00:26:32.700 --> 00:26:38.079 I was a, a mom on the program when I had, I started 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:41.119 when I had my daughter, I was approached in the 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.200 hospital when that was with my son, actually 00:26:43.200 --> 00:26:46.460 they're two years apart, but a peer counselor 00:26:46.460 --> 00:26:50.420 with the, they are, it's just like, it's kind 00:26:50.420 --> 00:26:53.740 of like a doula, like it's non -medical. So you 00:26:53.740 --> 00:26:57.740 have guidelines of how much you can talk to a 00:26:57.740 --> 00:27:00.480 mom about or about breastfeeding counseling. 00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:04.319 The moms have to, they have to sign up for the 00:27:04.319 --> 00:27:07.660 program because they can sign up after birth 00:27:07.660 --> 00:27:10.200 or before birth, but we just provide counseling 00:27:10.200 --> 00:27:13.279 like breastfeeding counseling. So there's certain 00:27:13.279 --> 00:27:15.680 things I can't say, even though I might know 00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:17.380 as an experienced breastfeeding mom, and then 00:27:17.380 --> 00:27:21.660 I have to refer to the in -house IBCLC or did 00:27:21.660 --> 00:27:25.819 I say that right? Is that obvious, CLC? Yeah, 00:27:25.859 --> 00:27:27.859 you said it right. Because you're one, right, 00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:33.940 Melba? No, I was in the process of doing it through 00:27:33.940 --> 00:27:37.839 a Pathway 3 program. So I stopped and now I'm 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.220 on the CLC track. Okay, I remember talking about 00:27:41.220 --> 00:27:44.180 that. But anyway, so I - And so what is that? 00:27:44.339 --> 00:27:45.920 Because I have no idea what you're talking about. 00:27:46.039 --> 00:27:48.099 I'm sure some of our listeners don't. That's 00:27:48.099 --> 00:27:51.240 like the highest level of - being able to give 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:53.119 the highest, the highest level for breastfeeding 00:27:53.119 --> 00:27:57.240 support. They can get hired, you know, in hospitals 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:01.900 or, and Melba might know more, but it is the 00:28:01.900 --> 00:28:06.420 highest level, right? Yes. So there are a internationally 00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:12.539 board certified lactation counselor or consultants. 00:28:13.240 --> 00:28:17.900 Yes. And they can have their own practice or 00:28:17.900 --> 00:28:22.460 be hired through the hospitals and they can build 00:28:22.460 --> 00:28:26.880 insurance companies as well. And COCs is just 00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:32.140 like a certified lactation counselor. Some insurances 00:28:32.140 --> 00:28:35.799 pay for them like TRICARE and stuff like that. 00:28:35.900 --> 00:28:40.720 But as far the difference is COCs cannot like 00:28:40.720 --> 00:28:45.390 diagnose. tongue ties, lip ties and stuff like 00:28:45.390 --> 00:28:48.869 that. So they might see, oh, it looks like your 00:28:48.869 --> 00:28:53.069 baby have a tongue tie or a lip tie. I need to 00:28:53.069 --> 00:28:56.529 refer you to an IBCLC to have a more comprehensive 00:28:56.529 --> 00:29:01.349 exam. Yeah, when I was a peer counselor, that's 00:29:01.349 --> 00:29:04.170 when I learned about both of those. And I was 00:29:04.170 --> 00:29:07.269 fascinated and right away I wanted to be an IBCLC. 00:29:07.390 --> 00:29:09.740 But when I saw the training. that was needed. 00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:12.740 Not that I couldn't do it, but I had two kids, 00:29:12.880 --> 00:29:15.579 one with a disability. There was no way I was 00:29:15.579 --> 00:29:18.019 going to, you know, but the CLC one was just 00:29:18.019 --> 00:29:22.000 as good. So that's like, actually, that's still 00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.920 one of my goals. But anyway, the peer counselor, 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:28.680 I worked at the local, so it was the local health 00:29:28.680 --> 00:29:33.000 department, low -income moms, pretty much 100 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:36.500 % of the moms were Medicaid moms, a majority. 00:29:37.369 --> 00:29:40.910 women of color, Black moms, young moms, first 00:29:40.910 --> 00:29:46.329 -time moms. And so the way WIC works now, you 00:29:46.329 --> 00:29:48.589 know, back in the day when WIC used to, you just 00:29:48.589 --> 00:29:50.589 used to go in, I don't know if y 'all, I was 00:29:50.589 --> 00:29:53.410 a WIC child. And so I know. I was a WIC mom. 00:29:53.730 --> 00:29:58.289 Okay. I was a WIC mom too. Yay, lived experience. 00:29:59.529 --> 00:30:03.009 Well, when I had my first child as a teen mom, 00:30:03.779 --> 00:30:05.839 As a way I would go into the health department 00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:07.779 and all you would see is like advertisements 00:30:07.779 --> 00:30:11.319 for formula. You know, there no one ever talked 00:30:11.319 --> 00:30:13.420 to me about breastfeeding. I just knew I was 00:30:13.420 --> 00:30:16.279 going to breastfeed because of my mom. And so 00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:19.559 I didn't have to have anyone talk to me. But 00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:21.640 that was I think I was probably a unique situation 00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:27.200 in 1995 with that as a 15 year old. But now there 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:29.799 is the World Health Organization did they are 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:34.500 successful in preventing the commercial. commercialization 00:30:34.500 --> 00:30:38.720 of, or advertising of formula. So you don't see 00:30:38.720 --> 00:30:42.460 formula commercials a lot. You don't see any 00:30:42.460 --> 00:30:44.559 advertisements in your health department or WIC 00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.160 office or formula. Now they still provide it, 00:30:47.220 --> 00:30:49.119 but they don't, they don't start there. They 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:51.160 always start with breastfeeding, which I was 00:30:51.160 --> 00:30:54.559 very impressed with. My, my role was very limited 00:30:54.559 --> 00:30:57.200 and it was hard because I was so experienced 00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.799 with breastfeeding. So when I wanted to go. that 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:01.960 extra step. I knew I couldn't, like I had to 00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:05.980 refer to the, to someone higher, but I also learned 00:31:05.980 --> 00:31:08.640 so much because I had to do training. I thought 00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:10.880 I knew everything about breastfeeding. I didn't 00:31:10.880 --> 00:31:13.359 know half of stuff about breastfeeding just because 00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:17.880 it was easy for me. I didn't know, you know, 00:31:17.900 --> 00:31:20.279 everything. And that's what made me really start 00:31:20.279 --> 00:31:24.779 to look at the people who do need extra support 00:31:24.779 --> 00:31:29.009 in education. It's not that. I'm not saying anything 00:31:29.009 --> 00:31:31.089 bad about, you know, WIC or the health department 00:31:31.089 --> 00:31:33.230 because they are state funded. So they only can 00:31:33.230 --> 00:31:36.509 go so far with the money they have. But just 00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:39.710 actually it was really unlike the back end, like 00:31:39.710 --> 00:31:42.190 the doc where it starts at in the hospital or 00:31:42.190 --> 00:31:44.849 the pediatrician's office or the oncologist's 00:31:44.849 --> 00:31:47.809 office, or even at home, just the lack of education, 00:31:47.990 --> 00:31:51.509 the lack of support. And when you have a young 00:31:51.509 --> 00:31:54.430 mom, a mom who comes from maybe, you know, low 00:31:54.430 --> 00:31:58.430 income, you know, single mom. They already are 00:31:58.430 --> 00:32:00.970 insecure about their ability to feed their baby. 00:32:01.390 --> 00:32:04.809 So there was just a lot of things that they just 00:32:04.809 --> 00:32:07.150 needed so much more education and support. And 00:32:07.150 --> 00:32:10.349 that was where, if I ever do become a certified 00:32:10.349 --> 00:32:13.269 lactation counselor. When you become. When I 00:32:13.269 --> 00:32:16.609 become. You're right. Thank you so much. That's 00:32:16.609 --> 00:32:21.089 going to be my focus is moms of color, you know, 00:32:21.109 --> 00:32:25.480 black moms and low income moms. Thank you for 00:32:25.480 --> 00:32:28.819 joining us on Questions You Didn't Ask with me, 00:32:28.960 --> 00:32:32.660 Naisha Frey, and my guests, Melba Perry and Jessica 00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:36.099 Burris. Tune in next week as we continue our 00:32:36.099 --> 00:32:39.680 series, From Birth to Beyond, unveiling challenges 00:32:39.680 --> 00:32:41.799 of maternal and infant health.