1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,040 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:12,340 Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 3 00:00:12,340 --> 00:00:18,560 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:34,000 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 5 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:36,000 Hi everyone, I'm Deb. 6 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:37,600 And I'm Beth. 7 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:43,840 And we want to welcome you to episode number 60. Beth, I can't believe this. 8 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:44,800 We're here. 9 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,440 Neither can I. Holy. 10 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,200 Isn't this crazy? Yes. 11 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:56,960 For our listeners, you don't ever know which family member is going to be here this season. 12 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,560 So today my sister Beth is here to help me out. 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,520 Beth, tell me what is new this week. I haven't talked to you. 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:04,720 It seems like in forever. 15 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:07,680 Well, I hear you're having spring in the area. 16 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:13,520 Yeah, I turned my air conditioning on last night because holy cow, it was too humid for my liking. 17 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:14,800 You know, I don't like that. 18 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:18,320 So I turned it on probably an hour and then turned it back off again. 19 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:23,360 But yeah, you know, mother nature is lying to us because we will get another cold snap. 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,280 Well, we got a cold snap because it is still winter up here in Canada. 21 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,200 There was an ice storm. 22 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:30,080 Oh. 23 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:35,120 So I had to go to get up for work and I couldn't get in my car. 24 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:36,400 It was so thick of ice. 25 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:39,680 Your car was frozen shut. 26 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:42,960 Yeah, the whole car was encapsuled in ice. 27 00:01:42,960 --> 00:01:44,400 The whole car. 28 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:44,960 Wow. 29 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,000 I've never had that happen to me before. 30 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,600 And I even pulled the door handle and the door handle. 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,440 I thought it was, I was going to rip it off. 32 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,800 All I did was go up and Al was on the same shift. 33 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:01,200 So I says, can you please drive me to work? 34 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,320 And I got a ride home from a coworker. 35 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:05,360 Holy moly. 36 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:07,200 And then it's snowing now. 37 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,160 Isn't that funny how humans can adapt to their environment? 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:12,960 It's true. 39 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:14,800 Okay, so what does that do to gasoline? 40 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:16,560 How does gasoline not freeze? 41 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:17,120 I don't know. 42 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,600 Maybe one of our listeners can tell us. 43 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:24,480 Oh yes. 44 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:25,920 You know who could tell us? 45 00:02:25,920 --> 00:02:26,320 Who? 46 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:27,840 My stepbrother, Sean. 47 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:28,640 Oh. 48 00:02:28,640 --> 00:02:30,800 Yeah, I'm going to have to ask him that question. 49 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:32,240 You will. 50 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:39,040 And the crazy other crazy thing is I have to make sure my car is at least a quarter filled 51 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:40,800 through the cold snap. 52 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:48,800 In between the cold snaps, we do get warmer weather and I don't want to pay for my gasoline 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:50,480 door to get fixed. 54 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,480 Sometimes the lever will not open in the cold. 55 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,120 And so I can't gas up. 56 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:00,320 It's one of those that you pop open from the inside of the car? 57 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:00,640 Yes. 58 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:03,360 Wow. 59 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,440 So I would imagine it's a pretty penny. 60 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:11,840 So I'll just keep my car filled quarter down and that's it. 61 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,560 Actually, believe it or not, first of all, Sean is our stepbrother, not my stepbrother. 62 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:22,480 But secondly, our stepdad has always said you need to keep a half a tank in your car 63 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,800 at all times because it's better for the engine and you get better gas mileage. 64 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,200 Oh, I'd fit under that. 65 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:30,080 I know. 66 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:35,760 If Val gets in the car and it's three quarters downhill, he'll look at me and says, what's 67 00:03:35,760 --> 00:03:36,760 wrong? 68 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:40,000 He knows he's going to get a gassed up car when he comes into the car. 69 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,320 So you're good about doing that. 70 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:45,120 Yes. 71 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:46,320 You know what I'm good about? 72 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:46,880 Nothing. 73 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:47,760 I'm good for nothing. 74 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:52,560 No, what? 75 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:54,000 Oh my gosh, Bethy Boo. 76 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:55,440 What are you good for? 77 00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:00,560 I am good for driving on empty because that's how I roll. 78 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:06,720 It's very stressful, but sometimes when I hit the interstate and I'm like, I'm sliding 79 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:07,520 in on two wheels. 80 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,360 I've never run out of gas, knock on wood, but I do that a little bit too often. 81 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:12,560 And I don't know why. 82 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,400 Oh my gosh. 83 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:15,440 Why do I do that? 84 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:16,640 Al does the same thing. 85 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:20,480 I don't know why we do that. 86 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:21,760 Why does he do that? 87 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:23,760 Probably the same reason you do. 88 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,160 I have no explanation, so I don't know. 89 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,960 A lot of the time I'm traveling by myself and I want to get as far as I can along my 90 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:32,080 path before I have to. 91 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:33,520 I hate stopping for gas. 92 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:34,160 Oh my gosh. 93 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:39,440 If I have a, I'm not going to name names, but when I have a driving partner with me, 94 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:43,520 I swear to goodness, we have to stop every hour and that drives me crazy. 95 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,600 Well, don't know what else to say. 96 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:48,720 All right. 97 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,480 I have a question for you, Beth. 98 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:51,440 What is it? 99 00:04:51,440 --> 00:04:52,480 How crafty are you? 100 00:04:52,480 --> 00:04:56,320 As far as home improvements, I know you're very crafty. 101 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:01,120 You have this wonderful business that you have now and you are so artsy. 102 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:07,200 It is amazing how talented you are, but on a home improvements note, how crafty are you there? 103 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:07,760 One. 104 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,600 One on a scale of one to 10? 105 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:09,840 Yeah. 106 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:11,280 I got you. 107 00:05:11,280 --> 00:05:13,520 I personally see that's what I love. 108 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,280 I like to do home improvements. 109 00:05:15,280 --> 00:05:24,000 I feel such satisfaction if I can refurnish furniture, if I can paint a wall, anything 110 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:24,640 like that. 111 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:25,360 I love it. 112 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:26,880 I love restoring furniture. 113 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:28,640 I just put music on and I go. 114 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,760 And that is kind of what I like to do is that ending result. 115 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:34,880 When you get a good facelift, I'm not good at construction. 116 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:35,600 Never have. 117 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:36,800 I don't think I ever will. 118 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,760 I'm definitely not Tim the Toolman Taylor, but I just love getting into all that. 119 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,880 And the ending results for me is the big win. 120 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,960 So does Sarah, my daughter. 121 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,320 Do you ever see those old oak China cabinets? 122 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:51,120 Yes. 123 00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:52,160 She refinished one. 124 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:54,480 She got one practically free. 125 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:55,040 Yeah. 126 00:05:55,040 --> 00:06:01,040 She stripped it and painted it white and the inside where the cabinet is, is like a Robin 127 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:01,680 egg blue. 128 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:04,400 I think I saw that on social media. 129 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:05,520 That is amazing. 130 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:11,120 Go to the thrift store, see what you can find and definitely refinish it. 131 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:15,920 I'm actually on the hunt for maybe a bedroom set that I could do that with. 132 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:16,480 Yes. 133 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:17,360 Yeah. 134 00:06:17,920 --> 00:06:18,720 All right. 135 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:26,880 Well, I asked you that question because a man named David Attenborough back in October of 2010, 136 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:32,480 he was renovating his home one day and he came upon an ominous discovery. 137 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:32,800 What? 138 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,880 Do you know who David Attenborough is? 139 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:35,280 No. 140 00:06:35,280 --> 00:06:37,440 Yeah, I don't either, but he's pretty famous. 141 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:38,560 Is he? 142 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:43,280 Yeah, he's pretty famous in the sense that he helped to uncover one of the biggest crime 143 00:06:43,280 --> 00:06:46,800 cases stemming all the way back to the 1800s. 144 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,240 Get out of here. 145 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:49,120 Mm-hmm. 146 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,920 And I know you love the Victorian era. 147 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:52,480 Yes. 148 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,720 And that's why I'm bringing you today. 149 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:55,600 Yay. 150 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,920 This story today is actually, it's got some really, I'm going to say eerie similarities 151 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:07,200 as far as that Amelia Dyer case that is it Amelia Dyer that we did a while back, the 152 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:08,640 baby farmer. 153 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:09,120 Yes. 154 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:09,280 Yeah. 155 00:07:09,280 --> 00:07:15,600 So to me, it kind of reminded me of that story somewhat in a sense, probably because of where 156 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:16,800 the setting's at. 157 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:23,920 This did occur back in Richmond, Southwest London, and David Attenborough was working 158 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:25,120 in his backyard. 159 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:31,120 He was building an extension or doing something on his property when he stumbled upon a severed 160 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,560 head in the garden. 161 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:33,600 No. 162 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:35,120 Yes. 163 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:37,920 That is horrible. 164 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,680 The nightmares it would give me. 165 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:40,320 Oh gosh. 166 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:40,800 Yeah. 167 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,600 I mean, we can talk about this all day long, but put it in front of us physically is a 168 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:46,320 different story. 169 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:47,200 Absolutely. 170 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:47,680 Right. 171 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:54,000 Well, David obviously called authorities who immediately sent the skull off for analysis. 172 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:55,360 And this is what they found. 173 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:02,720 It belonged to 55 year old Julia Martha Thomas, who unfortunately had been murdered in her 174 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,760 home way back in 1879. 175 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:11,040 And I don't know what to do with that information digging up that part of something in your 176 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:11,600 yard. 177 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,840 I'm really curious how they were able to figure out who she was. 178 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,440 There's something called radiocarbon testing. 179 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,720 And I have a feeling what they do is they get into the whatever matter is inside the 180 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:26,480 bone structure of the skull. 181 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:34,000 I guess what they do is they see what exists inside the formation of the bone structure. 182 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,880 Scientists were able to determine, okay, so I guess what I'm looking for is I think they 183 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:44,400 can extract certain material from the bone structure, kind of like the marrow. 184 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:45,120 You know what I mean? 185 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:45,760 Yes. 186 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:46,320 Okay. 187 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:53,120 So what they do is they can determine when that person lived and what they ate. 188 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:53,920 And this goes- 189 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:55,040 What they ate? 190 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:55,600 Yeah. 191 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,320 Kind of like, do you remember doing the bog bodies? 192 00:08:58,320 --> 00:08:59,120 Yes. 193 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:00,560 Same concept. 194 00:09:00,560 --> 00:09:04,160 And I think, okay, looking back, that was somewhere in the 20s. 195 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:10,240 We talked about bog bodies, but there's something called marine dating, which does look at 196 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,720 what people eat during certain eras. 197 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:19,040 And back in 1879, people ate a lot of fish, which was consistent to London residents at 198 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:19,680 the time. 199 00:09:19,680 --> 00:09:20,240 Okay. 200 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:27,040 Scientists were able to determine that whoever this skull belonged to lived between 1650 201 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:28,480 and 1880. 202 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:29,520 Isn't that something? 203 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,000 That would be really something. 204 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:38,240 It's one thing to find a dead body that was recent versus so far back. 205 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:42,160 Like how did it stay in the ground all that time? 206 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:47,760 Yeah, that's a good question, especially they obviously built a foundation of a home on 207 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:52,320 that property, but they just didn't hit that spot until the extension was being built. 208 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,360 Okay. 209 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:53,920 Yeah. 210 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,280 Well, I'm going to go ahead and tell you upfront who killed Julia. 211 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:58,000 Okay. 212 00:09:58,000 --> 00:09:59,920 Her name was Kate Webster. 213 00:09:59,920 --> 00:10:07,440 Kate, who at the age of 29 methodically killed Julia Thomas after recently being let go from 214 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,200 her job as a maid. 215 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,360 So let's just say that Kate was a disgruntled employee. 216 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:14,320 Hmm. 217 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:19,760 Now, do you get into telling us how they know it's Kate Webster? 218 00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:20,480 Oh yeah. 219 00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:20,800 Okay. 220 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:22,640 Oh yeah. 221 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:28,160 So Catherine Kate Lawler was born in Killen, Ireland. 222 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:29,520 I hope I said that right. 223 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,080 I went to pronounced.com, but you never know. 224 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,680 Listeners, tell me if I said that right because I'm not always good at that. 225 00:10:35,680 --> 00:10:38,720 But Kate was born in 1848. 226 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:44,720 She came from a very poor family and learned how to steal at a very young age. 227 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,280 She eventually served time in prison as early as age 15, Beth. 228 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:50,400 Wow. 229 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:50,880 I know. 230 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,080 You do what you got to do to survive, right? 231 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:54,800 Yes. 232 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:56,480 And prison at 15. 233 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,000 I wonder what she did to... 234 00:10:58,880 --> 00:11:03,520 I think she did a lot of petty theft, pickpocketing and things like that. 235 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:04,240 Okay. 236 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:11,200 So after accumulating numerous arrests in her early life, Kate decided to make a change 237 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:12,960 and off she went to Liverpool. 238 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:20,000 Things were obviously not much different here, Beth, because I like to say different places, 239 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,240 same old faces sort of thing. 240 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,560 You kind of find who you had in your past. 241 00:11:26,560 --> 00:11:29,680 You always seek out the people that you already know. 242 00:11:29,680 --> 00:11:30,080 Right. 243 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,920 So Kate soon fell into the same routine, petty theft. 244 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:41,040 She apparently wasn't any good at that because she landed herself back in prison again to 245 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,120 serve a four year sentence at the ripe old age of 18. 246 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:45,760 Oh. 247 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:48,000 I mean, poor thing. 248 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,080 That's a cycle she'll never get out of. 249 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:52,160 Oh no, absolutely not. 250 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:58,880 After serving this sentence, Kate moved on to London where she became a maid and a prostitute. 251 00:11:58,880 --> 00:11:59,600 Hmm. 252 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:06,320 Clearly bad habits die hard because Kate frequently stole from her johns as well as 253 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,360 whoever she was rooming with at the time. 254 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:15,120 And by the time she was in her mid twenties, Kate was sent off to Wandsworth prison to 255 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,760 serve another 18 months for larceny. 256 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:18,480 You're right. 257 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,160 Bad habits don't die. 258 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:20,720 No. 259 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:28,800 By 1873, Beth, I'm not sure how she managed it, but Kate met a man who went by the 260 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:30,320 name of Mr. Strong. 261 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:37,040 He and Kate soon became fast lovers and criminal accomplices because they eventually began 262 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,000 participating in petty robberies together. 263 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:42,240 She got herself a partner in crime. 264 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:43,360 Bonnie and Clyde. 265 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:51,200 Once Kate realized that she was pregnant by Mr. Strong during this relationship, she of 266 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,440 course is going to give him the happy news, right? 267 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:54,080 Yes. 268 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:55,680 How do you think he reacted? 269 00:12:55,680 --> 00:12:58,000 Well, he should be really excited. 270 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,040 Yeah. Well, he wasn't because he abandoned her. 271 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,360 Oh, that's sad. 272 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:04,240 It really is. 273 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:06,720 She is just not catching any breaks, is she? 274 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:07,280 No. 275 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:14,480 Nine months later in 1874, Kate gave birth to a son who she named John W. Webster. 276 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:20,480 Unfortunately, John's birth did not change Kate in her wayward activities because she 277 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:25,360 spent a lot of time in and out of prison for the next several years. 278 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:31,040 Anytime this would occur, Beth, Kate would pass her son down to a couple acquaintances, 279 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:32,640 let them take care of him. 280 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,400 And of course, this is going to come to play in just a moment. 281 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,120 But yeah, so she was sending him off to live with other people because she couldn't keep 282 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:41,920 out of jail. 283 00:13:41,920 --> 00:13:48,560 In January 1879, Kate was once again released from prison where she drifted from job to 284 00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:55,120 job and never really found steady work because, get this, Beth, she found that her employers 285 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,200 didn't have anything worth stealing. 286 00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:58,960 That is horrible. 287 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,200 I mean, what's her mindset here? 288 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,560 Like, what is she looking for? 289 00:14:02,560 --> 00:14:05,840 Because anything is worth stealing if you're a pickpocketer. 290 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,800 True, but I guess she's looking for the easy break, you know? 291 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:09,600 Yes. 292 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,600 Obviously, and clearly, she's not going to be reformed at this point. 293 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:15,200 If she's in her mid-20s. 294 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:15,680 No. 295 00:14:15,680 --> 00:14:22,880 You know, there are people out there that find it easier to steal and do all this illegal 296 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:27,200 stuff than actually going out and working a real job. 297 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:27,920 Yes. 298 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:34,080 Anyway, so my question here is, when I was researching Kate and her persona, are we born 299 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,440 with this mechanism? 300 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:36,880 Is this ingrained in her? 301 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,520 I know she came from a poor family. 302 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:40,720 Was she taught this? 303 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,360 I know that our personalities, we are who we are by the age of five. 304 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:45,920 Really? 305 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:47,680 Or at least somewhere in that area. 306 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:49,040 I think it's relatively close. 307 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:50,320 It might even be three. 308 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:51,840 It could be younger than that. 309 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:56,480 So is this a learned behavior or is it ingrained in her? 310 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,160 That's really my question. 311 00:14:58,160 --> 00:14:59,920 It's a very interesting question. 312 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:06,720 If we have any psychiatrists out there that can answer that question, definitely, 313 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,240 we would love to know that. 314 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:08,480 Yes. 315 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:13,920 Part of this, I think, is that if you look at the big picture, she's no joke. 316 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,320 I really think it comes from her soul. 317 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:21,440 And if you saw her picture, Beth, I don't know if you've looked her up, but I just 318 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,520 looking at the picture, she's got a dark soul. 319 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,480 You know how you can read people, right? 320 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:27,040 Yes. 321 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:28,160 Go look her up and let me. 322 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:28,720 Now? 323 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:29,220 Sure. 324 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:31,200 Let me know what you think. 325 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:33,600 Okay. 326 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,880 And while you do that, I'm going to continue with my little story here. 327 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:40,080 Kate eventually sought work as a maid. 328 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:41,600 Wait, I'll just clip it all. 329 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:43,120 I want you to see what she looks like. 330 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:44,240 Oh my gosh. 331 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,560 Did you see her buggy eyes? 332 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,680 I think she's got a dark soul, don't you? 333 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:50,180 Yes. 334 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:50,820 I know. 335 00:15:50,820 --> 00:15:54,340 And see, even that picture reminds me of Amelia Dyer. 336 00:15:54,340 --> 00:15:55,380 Yes, it does. 337 00:15:55,380 --> 00:15:59,140 Now I know back in the time people didn't smile in their photos. 338 00:15:59,140 --> 00:16:01,620 So is that part of it or is she just pissed off? 339 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:03,300 Well, it's those eyes to me. 340 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:04,100 Oh yeah. 341 00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:05,140 But absolutely. 342 00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:11,300 Well, Kate eventually sought work as a maid because I suppose she's trying to make an 343 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:12,500 honest living here. 344 00:16:12,500 --> 00:16:17,540 When she went to work, she left her son, John, with those acquaintances that I told you about. 345 00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:26,100 And one of those acquaintances referred Kate to a 55 year old widow named Julia Martha Thomas, 346 00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:28,180 who needed some help around the house. 347 00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:30,580 Off Kate went to work for Julia. 348 00:16:30,580 --> 00:16:34,340 And remember now, Julia is the one whose skull was found in the garden. 349 00:16:34,340 --> 00:16:34,980 Okay. 350 00:16:34,980 --> 00:16:37,380 Now, Kate interviewed with Julia. 351 00:16:37,380 --> 00:16:42,580 She was hired on the spot and she didn't even get any references. 352 00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:43,780 Okay, you're hired. 353 00:16:43,780 --> 00:16:48,900 This is what we commonly know as getting a background on people, folks. 354 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:53,300 I think it's kind of important, at least in today's day and age, but Julia did not do 355 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:56,180 any background checking on Kate. 356 00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:57,940 Kate was hired immediately. 357 00:16:57,940 --> 00:17:04,020 And what Kate found out is that Julia was considered somewhat of a strict employer. 358 00:17:04,020 --> 00:17:05,620 Oh, you mean she had work ethic? 359 00:17:06,740 --> 00:17:07,460 I like that. 360 00:17:09,620 --> 00:17:12,500 Julia was known to have some harsh words. 361 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:15,220 Coming behind Kate, inspecting her work. 362 00:17:15,220 --> 00:17:17,860 Gosh, Beth, that just brought back a memory. 363 00:17:17,860 --> 00:17:19,380 Did she grow up military? 364 00:17:19,380 --> 00:17:24,420 Because isn't that kind of how dad was when we did chores around the house? 365 00:17:24,420 --> 00:17:26,820 Didn't he always come inspect our work? 366 00:17:26,820 --> 00:17:27,220 Yes. 367 00:17:27,220 --> 00:17:32,820 Do you remember rolling up the carpet every Saturday in the living room, in the basement 368 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:33,540 living room? 369 00:17:33,540 --> 00:17:37,060 We rolled that sucker up every Saturday. 370 00:17:37,060 --> 00:17:37,620 Oh yeah. 371 00:17:38,340 --> 00:17:40,820 I don't remember rolling it up every week. 372 00:17:40,820 --> 00:17:46,100 I do remember raking the shag rug after we vacuumed. 373 00:17:50,580 --> 00:17:51,380 Oh boy. 374 00:17:52,420 --> 00:17:52,980 Yes. 375 00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:53,860 Back in the day. 376 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:55,620 Oh my goodness. 377 00:17:55,620 --> 00:18:00,340 Well, long story short, Julia and Kate did not see eye to eye very much. 378 00:18:00,340 --> 00:18:02,340 They had a personality conflicts. 379 00:18:02,340 --> 00:18:04,180 Julia was set in her ways. 380 00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:07,940 Obviously she had been a widow, so she had been married a long time. 381 00:18:07,940 --> 00:18:09,940 And she was 55 years old at the time. 382 00:18:09,940 --> 00:18:11,300 Kate was in her twenties. 383 00:18:11,300 --> 00:18:14,580 Kate obviously did not take kindly to authority. 384 00:18:14,580 --> 00:18:18,180 So they just had this constant wedge between them. 385 00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:25,940 In fact, Kate preferred to party on a regular basis at the local pub as opposed to working 386 00:18:25,940 --> 00:18:26,580 for a living. 387 00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:27,460 So how about that? 388 00:18:27,460 --> 00:18:30,180 Well, that sounds about right, but it shocks me. 389 00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:31,220 How come it shocks you? 390 00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:33,140 I don't know. 391 00:18:33,140 --> 00:18:37,220 I just don't think of women back then partying and drinking. 392 00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:38,420 Yeah, that's true. 393 00:18:38,420 --> 00:18:39,140 You're right. 394 00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:40,180 I feel the same way. 395 00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:43,940 I suppose in the back of my head, I'm thinking, wow, okay. 396 00:18:43,940 --> 00:18:45,540 So she's out there at the bars. 397 00:18:45,540 --> 00:18:48,900 First of all, it was all about reputation in there as well. 398 00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:51,700 During that era, it was all about reputation. 399 00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:52,500 Yes. 400 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:56,580 So a woman in a bar in the 1870s, absolutely. 401 00:18:56,580 --> 00:18:58,900 That would be definitely scandalous. 402 00:18:58,900 --> 00:18:59,700 Don't you think? 403 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:00,020 Yes. 404 00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:07,540 Well, Kate was fired relatively quickly because she spent more time in those bars than working 405 00:19:07,540 --> 00:19:08,580 for Julia. 406 00:19:08,580 --> 00:19:12,420 And Kate didn't much like being fired, obviously. 407 00:19:12,420 --> 00:19:13,540 I was fired once. 408 00:19:13,540 --> 00:19:14,500 I didn't like it either. 409 00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:17,300 Where were you fired from? 410 00:19:17,780 --> 00:19:18,900 Oh gosh, Beth. 411 00:19:18,900 --> 00:19:19,380 Okay. 412 00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:22,340 So this is before I started teaching you all. 413 00:19:22,340 --> 00:19:24,180 If you're a new listener, I'm a teacher. 414 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:26,820 I've always worked for a not-for-profit company. 415 00:19:26,820 --> 00:19:32,420 And then I got laid off way back in, I don't know, the 2008, 2009. 416 00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:33,540 I got laid off. 417 00:19:33,540 --> 00:19:37,620 And then I went to go work for a company that was a for-profit. 418 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:40,580 And I say I will never work for a for-profit again. 419 00:19:40,580 --> 00:19:41,780 They have no scruples. 420 00:19:41,780 --> 00:19:46,100 I literally worked there for less than a year, probably somewhere around 10 months or so. 421 00:19:46,100 --> 00:19:50,420 And for some reason I was called into the office, fired on the spot. 422 00:19:50,420 --> 00:19:51,460 Don't even know why. 423 00:19:51,460 --> 00:19:52,980 They didn't give me an explanation. 424 00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:54,100 I have no idea. 425 00:19:54,100 --> 00:19:55,140 What? 426 00:19:55,140 --> 00:19:56,660 You don't know this story? 427 00:19:56,660 --> 00:19:56,900 No. 428 00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:59,940 I know I was a scapegoat for something. 429 00:19:59,940 --> 00:20:00,820 That's weird. 430 00:20:00,820 --> 00:20:02,340 Anyway, that's the corporate world for you. 431 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:03,800 All right. 432 00:20:04,660 --> 00:20:05,700 Back to Kate here. 433 00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:13,860 Kate didn't much like being fired Beth because on March 22nd, 1879, after she went a few rounds 434 00:20:13,860 --> 00:20:17,460 of drinks at the local pub, she went over to Julia's house, 435 00:20:17,460 --> 00:20:21,860 waited for her to return home from church, then straight up attacked her. 436 00:20:22,660 --> 00:20:26,900 That seems like quite a difference between the two, drinking and church. 437 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:29,780 Yes, you're probably right. 438 00:20:30,980 --> 00:20:34,100 That probably had a lot to do with their personality conflicts. 439 00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:34,660 Yeah. 440 00:20:34,660 --> 00:20:35,860 I never thought of that. 441 00:20:35,860 --> 00:20:41,300 Well, if this wasn't enough, Kate proceeded to push Julia down a flight of stairs. 442 00:20:41,300 --> 00:20:48,340 And after realizing that Julia had injuries that she could probably easily explain to 443 00:20:48,340 --> 00:20:52,900 maybe the authorities, Kate proceeded to strangle Julia to death. 444 00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:53,460 Wow. 445 00:20:53,460 --> 00:20:54,340 That's gruesome. 446 00:20:54,740 --> 00:20:56,500 Women aren't known to strangle. 447 00:20:56,500 --> 00:21:00,580 I saw that on one of the investigative discovery shows I was watching. 448 00:21:00,580 --> 00:21:01,700 And that's what they said. 449 00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:03,700 Women do not strangle. 450 00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,340 And back in the day, didn't they use poison a lot? 451 00:21:06,340 --> 00:21:07,140 Yes. 452 00:21:07,140 --> 00:21:09,380 Obviously she had anger issues. 453 00:21:09,380 --> 00:21:11,940 And then let's add alcohol to the mix, right? 454 00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:12,900 Exactly. 455 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:19,940 Afterwards, Kate gave Julia one last whack on the head with an axe for good measure. 456 00:21:21,220 --> 00:21:22,980 Oh my gosh. 457 00:21:22,980 --> 00:21:24,020 I know, right? 458 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:26,900 All for getting fired over being irresponsible. 459 00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:36,420 Geez. Once Kate finished the job, she methodically cut Julia up into several pieces by using a saw, 460 00:21:36,420 --> 00:21:38,260 razor, and kitchen knife. 461 00:21:38,260 --> 00:21:43,700 You know, this really, I guess I hate to use the word intrigues, but it's very interesting 462 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:47,940 that a woman strangles, cuts, hits with an axe. 463 00:21:47,940 --> 00:21:52,260 Those just seem to be all masculine related ways of death. 464 00:21:52,260 --> 00:21:53,140 So true. 465 00:21:53,140 --> 00:21:54,260 And look at her picture though. 466 00:21:54,260 --> 00:21:58,020 Doesn't she look a little masculine other than her, was she wearing a bonnet? 467 00:21:58,020 --> 00:21:59,220 Yes, she does. 468 00:21:59,220 --> 00:21:59,940 Yes. 469 00:21:59,940 --> 00:22:04,980 Well, obviously she's a hundred percent vested in carrying this out, Beth. 470 00:22:04,980 --> 00:22:09,060 I don't know what could have been going through her mind, but that's just nuts. 471 00:22:09,060 --> 00:22:09,540 Yeah. 472 00:22:09,540 --> 00:22:10,180 All right. 473 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:15,540 After Kate completed her dirty deeds, she proceeded to do a couple other things with 474 00:22:15,540 --> 00:22:16,980 Julia's remains. 475 00:22:16,980 --> 00:22:21,940 She placed Julia into a pot of boiling water that she was brewing on the stove. 476 00:22:21,940 --> 00:22:26,020 Once Julia's body began to cook, Beth, I don't need to be this gruesome. 477 00:22:26,020 --> 00:22:30,260 And I said I wasn't going to do this, but I'm just trying to give you the aspects of 478 00:22:30,260 --> 00:22:31,060 what's happening here. 479 00:22:31,060 --> 00:22:31,460 Okay. 480 00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:39,140 Once Julia's body began to boil down, Kate was overtaken by either the smell or I'm not 481 00:22:39,140 --> 00:22:45,300 going to call it remorse, Beth, but probably the realization of what she had just done 482 00:22:45,300 --> 00:22:50,100 because she found herself to be very disgusted with the circumstances. 483 00:22:50,100 --> 00:22:52,180 So what do you think that she did? 484 00:22:52,180 --> 00:22:57,220 Well, take her out of, I don't know, the only thing I think is take her out of the pot and 485 00:22:57,220 --> 00:22:58,420 bury the remains. 486 00:22:58,420 --> 00:23:00,980 Yeah, that actually happened eventually. 487 00:23:00,980 --> 00:23:03,140 Oh, what in the world did she do? 488 00:23:03,140 --> 00:23:07,540 She went back to the pub to kick back a few more drinks before returning to finish the 489 00:23:07,540 --> 00:23:08,020 job. 490 00:23:08,020 --> 00:23:11,060 Oh, that's, that is so disgusting. 491 00:23:11,060 --> 00:23:18,740 Like this whole story is quite different from what we normally do or even read or, you 492 00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:24,180 know, even criminal minds didn't have anything this bad. 493 00:23:25,620 --> 00:23:33,300 When Kate returned to Julia's house, she did finish the job, then packed Julia's remains 494 00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:39,860 up into a box and took a little trip over to a little river called the Thames to make 495 00:23:39,860 --> 00:23:40,500 a deposit. 496 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:42,900 See, this is where Amelia Dyer comes in too. 497 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:49,140 There was a lot of dumping grounds in the Thames back in the 1800s, I imagine. 498 00:23:49,140 --> 00:23:49,460 Yeah. 499 00:23:50,020 --> 00:23:55,540 Before tossing Julia's remains into the Thames river, she made sure that she removed 500 00:23:55,540 --> 00:23:59,220 Julia's gold teeth because obviously, Beth, she's a thief. 501 00:23:59,220 --> 00:23:59,700 Oh my God. 502 00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:02,900 And it was all about the almighty dollar here. 503 00:24:02,900 --> 00:24:03,460 Wow. 504 00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:06,180 This story just gets worse and worse. 505 00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:09,620 When I say methodical, Beth, like you have to commit to this. 506 00:24:09,620 --> 00:24:12,180 And I mean, what is her mindset? 507 00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:15,060 Obviously, she is inebriated. 508 00:24:15,060 --> 00:24:18,020 Well, that's kind of wear off at some point in time. 509 00:24:18,020 --> 00:24:18,740 What the heck? 510 00:24:20,020 --> 00:24:26,980 People weren't diagnosed a lot of times back then, but she obviously had mental health 511 00:24:26,980 --> 00:24:27,700 issues. 512 00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:28,980 Yeah, I agree. 513 00:24:28,980 --> 00:24:34,820 And that will come into play maybe towards the end of our episode today, but Julia's 514 00:24:34,820 --> 00:24:38,340 head and foot, Beth, did not fit into that box. 515 00:24:38,340 --> 00:24:43,460 So this is where Kate ended up burying Julia's remains in the garden. 516 00:24:43,460 --> 00:24:48,660 That's when we come back to old David Attenborough from Richmond, South London. 517 00:24:48,660 --> 00:24:52,340 He was the one that dug up Julia's remains back in 2010. 518 00:24:52,340 --> 00:24:53,060 Wow. 519 00:24:53,060 --> 00:24:59,620 After Kate returned to Julia's house, she went on to complete her duties as assigned. 520 00:24:59,620 --> 00:25:01,220 She was a hired maid. 521 00:25:01,220 --> 00:25:05,540 So obviously, Beth, she cleaned up after herself and proceeded to clean up Julia's 522 00:25:05,540 --> 00:25:06,500 house entirely. 523 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:08,260 That's so weird, isn't it? 524 00:25:08,260 --> 00:25:08,980 Uh-huh. 525 00:25:08,980 --> 00:25:12,740 After a good night's rest, Kate squatted at the residence. 526 00:25:12,740 --> 00:25:14,340 She took up residency there. 527 00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:19,060 She took any leftover evidence, placed them in the fireplace. 528 00:25:19,060 --> 00:25:22,820 So anything that was left behind after she cleaned up went into the fireplace. 529 00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:30,340 Kate even tried to sell Julia's cooked down remains as cooking fat or simply to feed 530 00:25:30,340 --> 00:25:33,060 street children to get rid of the evidence. 531 00:25:33,060 --> 00:25:34,660 Oh my gosh. 532 00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:40,260 Now, obviously, Beth, we also talked about Robert Picton here and the rendering plant 533 00:25:40,260 --> 00:25:42,100 that he would take things to. 534 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:42,660 Yes. 535 00:25:42,660 --> 00:25:47,140 I mean, that's so many full circle things here as far as human behavior. 536 00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:52,100 It's quite interesting how we can relate now that we've done 59 episodes. 537 00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:57,780 This is being the 60th that so many cases are related in a way to another. 538 00:25:57,780 --> 00:26:03,540 Like you said, we see Robert Picton and Amelia Dyer in this story. 539 00:26:03,540 --> 00:26:04,580 Mm-hmm. 540 00:26:04,580 --> 00:26:10,020 Well, something that I had not mentioned was that Julia was somewhat of a recluse and 541 00:26:10,020 --> 00:26:12,340 didn't have any family in the picture. 542 00:26:12,340 --> 00:26:15,300 So she didn't interact with the community. 543 00:26:15,940 --> 00:26:20,660 She really, I mean, yes, she went to church, but she didn't do a whole lot of interaction 544 00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:21,780 or things like that. 545 00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:24,980 Of course, Kate's going to take advantage of this, right? 546 00:26:24,980 --> 00:26:25,780 Yes. 547 00:26:25,780 --> 00:26:32,500 When Kate took up residence, she claimed to whoever she may have encountered that she 548 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:37,780 was Julia's niece and told them that she had just inherited the house. 549 00:26:37,780 --> 00:26:44,100 So Kate being Kate, doing what Kate does, she begins selling off Julia's furniture to earn 550 00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:45,300 some quick cash. 551 00:26:45,300 --> 00:26:49,220 She did not wait very long to just do what she does. 552 00:26:49,220 --> 00:26:50,340 No. 553 00:26:50,340 --> 00:26:56,420 The next day, fishermen discovered a floating box in the Thames River, which at this point, 554 00:26:56,420 --> 00:26:58,740 Beth, was Julia's remains. 555 00:26:58,740 --> 00:26:59,860 Oh dear. 556 00:26:59,860 --> 00:27:06,820 However, because Julia was a recluse and didn't interact with very many people, nobody missed 557 00:27:06,820 --> 00:27:10,500 her on the days that preceded the discovery of her remains. 558 00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,740 That's pretty sad not to have anybody in your life like that. 559 00:27:14,740 --> 00:27:15,380 I know. 560 00:27:15,380 --> 00:27:16,580 That's got to be lonely. 561 00:27:16,580 --> 00:27:21,620 I mean, at least she got out and went to church, but then again, obviously she's not interacting 562 00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:23,460 with too many people from church. 563 00:27:23,460 --> 00:27:26,820 Well, we've known a recluse in our lives. 564 00:27:26,820 --> 00:27:27,780 Oh yes. 565 00:27:27,780 --> 00:27:28,980 Yes, very much so. 566 00:27:28,980 --> 00:27:29,620 You're right. 567 00:27:29,620 --> 00:27:34,340 I now realize it's social anxiety that they had. 568 00:27:34,340 --> 00:27:34,980 I agree. 569 00:27:34,980 --> 00:27:35,700 Very much so. 570 00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:36,580 Undiagnosed. 571 00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:37,940 Right. 572 00:27:37,940 --> 00:27:43,620 Little did Kate know that a neighbor had taken notice of the furniture that was being removed 573 00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:49,140 from Julia's house, and they called police to voice concerns because, Beth, back in the 574 00:27:49,140 --> 00:27:56,500 day, either Julia herself would probably be overseeing this removal or at least her maid, 575 00:27:56,500 --> 00:27:58,740 which in this case was Kate Webster. 576 00:27:58,740 --> 00:28:03,300 And I guess they were probably thinking that somebody was breaking into the house and removing 577 00:28:03,300 --> 00:28:03,860 furniture. 578 00:28:04,420 --> 00:28:06,740 And it's always good to have a nosy neighbor, don't you think? 579 00:28:07,460 --> 00:28:08,180 I don't know. 580 00:28:10,420 --> 00:28:13,060 Along came the police to check things out. 581 00:28:13,060 --> 00:28:15,860 And what do you think Kate does at this point? 582 00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:21,380 She stands up for herself and says that she had the house gifted to her. 583 00:28:21,380 --> 00:28:23,220 No, she ran off to Ireland. 584 00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:24,180 Get out of here. 585 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:29,780 For good measure, Kate fled wearing one of Julia's outfits and jewelry because she had 586 00:28:29,780 --> 00:28:30,980 to snatch something. 587 00:28:30,980 --> 00:28:38,020 And of course, police didn't know it at this time, but they did take her running off as 588 00:28:38,020 --> 00:28:38,900 a sign of guilt. 589 00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:41,700 So what are they going to do? 590 00:28:41,700 --> 00:28:47,540 They tracked her down rather quickly at that because Kate thought it would be a good idea, 591 00:28:47,540 --> 00:28:50,660 Beth, to hide out in the hometown where she was born. 592 00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:52,260 That's very clever. 593 00:28:53,220 --> 00:28:53,540 Not. 594 00:28:53,540 --> 00:29:01,540 On March 28th, 1879, Kate was located while hiding out on her uncle's farm, still wearing 595 00:29:01,540 --> 00:29:04,100 Julia's dress and jewelry on her person. 596 00:29:04,980 --> 00:29:07,300 So the police caught up with her rather quickly. 597 00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:08,820 I mean, she had a record. 598 00:29:08,820 --> 00:29:10,900 They could easily track her down. 599 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:12,340 They knew where she was born. 600 00:29:12,340 --> 00:29:14,500 I don't know if they took fingerprints back then. 601 00:29:14,500 --> 00:29:19,380 They probably did, but they had pretty good records of her being in and out of prison 602 00:29:19,380 --> 00:29:20,740 as many times as she was. 603 00:29:20,740 --> 00:29:27,380 Kate was extradited back to London where the man who had bought Julia's furniture identified 604 00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:30,020 her as the person who sold it to him. 605 00:29:30,020 --> 00:29:30,580 All right. 606 00:29:30,580 --> 00:29:35,380 So what kind of reactions do you think Kate's going to do at this point with the man's 607 00:29:35,380 --> 00:29:38,020 accusations or at least identification? 608 00:29:38,020 --> 00:29:42,340 I'm guessing maybe trying to kill him. 609 00:29:42,340 --> 00:29:47,700 Nope, because she was already in custody, but she did try to pin Julia's murder on her. 610 00:29:47,700 --> 00:29:50,900 But she did try to pin Julia's murder on him. 611 00:29:52,020 --> 00:29:56,660 And of course, police at this point, anytime somebody is accused, they have to look into it. 612 00:29:56,660 --> 00:30:01,620 But he had a pretty solid alibi, so they didn't really go very far after that. 613 00:30:01,620 --> 00:30:04,020 They dropped him as a suspect rather quickly. 614 00:30:04,020 --> 00:30:04,740 Good. 615 00:30:04,740 --> 00:30:11,460 Once police established a timeline of Kate's movements, they eventually went back to Julia's 616 00:30:11,460 --> 00:30:14,340 house to conduct a thorough investigation. 617 00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:20,340 And this is when they discovered blood stains in the home, burnt bone fragments in the fireplace, 618 00:30:20,340 --> 00:30:26,740 and fatty substances located by the hearth where Kate had boiled down some of Julia's body parts. 619 00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:29,700 That's pretty gruesome. 620 00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:30,180 It is. 621 00:30:30,820 --> 00:30:36,740 On July 2nd, 1879, Kate Webster stood trial for Julia's murder. 622 00:30:36,740 --> 00:30:43,700 The courthouse was packed to the gills because, Beth, what else did people in the 1879 have to do 623 00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:44,660 with their time? 624 00:30:44,660 --> 00:30:46,980 They didn't have all the distractions that we do today. 625 00:30:46,980 --> 00:30:47,860 Exactly. 626 00:30:47,860 --> 00:30:53,860 One of the star witnesses for the prosecution was a hat maker who testified that Kate had come into 627 00:30:53,860 --> 00:30:59,620 her shop a week before Julia's murder to say that she was looking to sell some property and jewelry 628 00:30:59,620 --> 00:31:05,940 that her aunt had left in her will, which obviously, Beth, this set Kate up for premeditation. 629 00:31:05,940 --> 00:31:16,100 Oh. On July 9th, 1878, after a six-day trial, Kate Webster was found guilty by a jury of peers. 630 00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:21,060 After just one hour of deliberation, Kate was sentenced to death by hanging. 631 00:31:21,060 --> 00:31:27,140 Once Kate realized that her fate was sealed, she claimed that she was pregnant just to stall for 632 00:31:27,140 --> 00:31:32,900 time, hoping to avoid the death penalty. Beth, she was grasping at straws because they quickly 633 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:34,580 found out that she was not pregnant. 634 00:31:34,580 --> 00:31:35,220 Good. 635 00:31:35,220 --> 00:31:41,460 Kate also tried to pin Julia's murder on her child's father, but of course, those were lies. 636 00:31:41,460 --> 00:31:43,060 She's a habitual liar here. 637 00:31:44,020 --> 00:31:51,060 After multiple attempts to pin Julia's death on multiple people, the court system obviously did 638 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:55,860 not buy anything she had to say and went on with the execution. 639 00:31:55,860 --> 00:32:02,260 On July 28th, 1879, the night before her execution, Kate knew that she was pretty much 640 00:32:02,260 --> 00:32:08,020 done in for and finally confessed straight up that she was the one that had killed Julia. 641 00:32:08,020 --> 00:32:09,540 Now that surprises me. 642 00:32:09,540 --> 00:32:12,340 I know, right? Usually people don't do that. 643 00:32:12,340 --> 00:32:13,060 I know. 644 00:32:13,060 --> 00:32:17,700 Well, she had it all in writing because I'm actually going to read her confession. 645 00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:24,020 Quote, Mrs. Thomas came in and went upstairs. I went up after her and we had an argument, 646 00:32:24,020 --> 00:32:28,580 which ripened into a quarrel. In the height of my anger and rage, 647 00:32:28,580 --> 00:32:31,460 I threw her from the top of the stairs to the ground floor. 648 00:32:31,460 --> 00:32:38,340 She had a heavy fall and I became agitated at what had occurred, lost all control of myself, 649 00:32:38,340 --> 00:32:43,220 and to prevent her screaming and getting me into trouble, I caught her by the throat. 650 00:32:43,220 --> 00:32:46,820 And in the struggle, she was choked and I threw her on the floor. 651 00:32:46,820 --> 00:32:50,500 Beth, I'm not going to continue on with this because it gets rather gruesome, 652 00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:55,940 but this is where she goes into detail on what she did with Julia after she had choked her. 653 00:32:55,940 --> 00:32:58,820 So I'll let you use your imagination there. 654 00:32:58,820 --> 00:33:06,500 So on July 29th, 1879, Kate was hanged in a public setting with hundreds of people in attendance, 655 00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:12,660 just the same amount of people that were probably at her trial also went to go see her executed. 656 00:33:12,660 --> 00:33:18,980 But I guess really, Beth, that really shows that we do as human beings have morbid curiosity. 657 00:33:18,980 --> 00:33:19,780 We do. 658 00:33:19,780 --> 00:33:20,980 Look what we're doing right now. 659 00:33:20,980 --> 00:33:26,340 I know. And even back in the Roman days when they had their big stadiums 660 00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:32,180 of animal against man or man against man and everybody standing around cheering. 661 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:35,060 That is because they have the Colosseum in Rome. 662 00:33:35,060 --> 00:33:35,860 Yes. 663 00:33:35,860 --> 00:33:42,340 Well, Kate was accompanied by the executioner who placed a white hood over her head. 664 00:33:42,340 --> 00:33:45,940 And any guesses on what her last words may have been? 665 00:33:45,940 --> 00:33:47,380 I didn't really do it. 666 00:33:47,380 --> 00:33:51,220 No, she never said that because she did make that confession, 667 00:33:51,220 --> 00:33:56,500 but she pretty much threw obscenities to the onlookers while she was hanged. 668 00:33:56,500 --> 00:33:57,220 The end. 669 00:33:57,220 --> 00:34:01,380 Oh, well, I guess you don't change your personality. 670 00:34:01,380 --> 00:34:03,700 No, and to the bitter end too, eh? 671 00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:05,140 Yeah, exactly. 672 00:34:05,140 --> 00:34:05,780 All right. 673 00:34:05,780 --> 00:34:10,980 Well, Beth, we've also talked about, is it Madame Tussaud, the wax figure? 674 00:34:10,980 --> 00:34:11,700 Yes. 675 00:34:11,700 --> 00:34:17,620 We've also talked about them and was it the Bog Bodies that we did that with or was that another episode? 676 00:34:17,620 --> 00:34:19,460 I think it was another episode. 677 00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:24,900 Yeah, so let's tell our listeners, you're going to have to listen to 59 episodes and get back to us 678 00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:28,980 on which one that was because again, we're coming full circle. 679 00:34:28,980 --> 00:34:29,480 We are. 680 00:34:30,980 --> 00:34:37,940 Kate Webster was such a notorious case from the Victorian era that she too became a subject of 681 00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:43,700 Madame Tussaud's wax museum, which remained on display for over 80 years. 682 00:34:43,700 --> 00:34:47,060 Wow. I guess it wouldn't be being shown now. 683 00:34:47,060 --> 00:34:50,420 Oh yeah. So much more stuff has occurred since then. 684 00:34:50,420 --> 00:34:53,380 Well, not just that, but I'm just trying to think. 685 00:34:53,940 --> 00:34:57,140 I know they have a big exhibit of the Royal Family. 686 00:34:57,140 --> 00:34:57,620 Do they? 687 00:34:58,260 --> 00:35:00,580 I think it's her. I don't think it's Ripley's. 688 00:35:00,580 --> 00:35:06,180 Oh, don't you remember? I think it was in H.H. Holmes who was fitted. 689 00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:12,980 No, somebody was fitted for their wax-like figure by Madame Tussaud herself. 690 00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:13,620 Do you remember? 691 00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:19,460 I do remember that. See, I don't know, listeners, just DM us and let us know which episode that was. 692 00:35:19,460 --> 00:35:20,820 What does DM mean? 693 00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:22,900 It means direct message. 694 00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:28,980 Oh, you used that with me and I'm thinking, or another girlfriend did, and I'm thinking, what is DM? 695 00:35:28,980 --> 00:35:31,220 Yeah, slide into our DMs, people. 696 00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:36,100 I'm not techie. Debby's a techie one. 697 00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:36,980 You say what now? 698 00:35:36,980 --> 00:35:39,540 I'm sorry. Deb is a techie one. 699 00:35:39,540 --> 00:35:44,820 Oh, goodness. No, I work around adolescents all day, Beth. That's how I'm able to keep up with the lingo 700 00:35:44,820 --> 00:35:47,220 because we have a generation gap and I know it. 701 00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:54,580 Well, Bethyboo, that is the story of Kate Webster and Julia Martha Thomas. 702 00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:57,060 Another awesome story. Thanks, Deb. 703 00:35:57,060 --> 00:35:59,060 You're welcome. 704 00:35:59,060 --> 00:36:05,300 I hate to say I really enjoyed it, but it was intriguing and something that we haven't done 705 00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:13,220 before is something like this. Yeah, because this went definitely at a higher level than Amelia. 706 00:36:13,220 --> 00:36:20,900 Well, not necessarily because if you guys go back and listen to that one, I mean, Beth, the caliber, 707 00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:26,580 there's no comparisons other than maybe what the two women looked like. There's no comparisons 708 00:36:26,580 --> 00:36:33,460 because of the horrific things that Amelia Dyer did in comparison to what Kate Webster did. 709 00:36:33,460 --> 00:36:38,420 I think the only thing that we have as far as similarities here is that they're both in the 710 00:36:38,420 --> 00:36:43,940 Victorian era and honestly, they both look very similar. They have a lot of the same features. 711 00:36:43,940 --> 00:36:48,180 They do. So Deb, do you have a teachable moment for us? 712 00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:53,380 Of course, Beth. It's been a while since I've been able to tell you one, but you actually brought 713 00:36:53,380 --> 00:36:59,060 this up earlier and I told you we'd get to it. Well, teachable moment. Seek help if you have anger 714 00:36:59,060 --> 00:37:05,220 issues. It's my understanding that Julia had given Kate notice that she was being fired and this is 715 00:37:05,220 --> 00:37:11,940 not something I actually mentioned during this episode, but Kate convinced Julia to let her stay 716 00:37:11,940 --> 00:37:17,860 for a few more days before she went on her merry way. And obviously we already know that these women 717 00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:24,980 did not see eye to eye in this relationship and clearly it was just, it was toxic. Regardless of 718 00:37:24,980 --> 00:37:31,860 the circumstances, I don't think counseling was a regular thing back in 1879. You already mentioned 719 00:37:31,860 --> 00:37:39,860 that, but today we definitely have so many more resources, maybe even keeping a journal. I heard 720 00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:46,260 that really helps. Some people love to do that and you can definitely go back to see what you wrote, 721 00:37:46,260 --> 00:37:52,660 maybe how you were feeling that day, identify all sorts of things. But my teachable moment is 722 00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:59,460 if you recognize that you do have anger issues, it's really important to seek help for something 723 00:37:59,460 --> 00:38:05,220 obviously you cannot manage on your own. We all have outbursts. I mean, it's human nature, right? 724 00:38:05,220 --> 00:38:11,620 Yes. You don't want a record following you around for your entire life or something that you could 725 00:38:11,620 --> 00:38:17,380 have in the whole scheme of things likely been able to control at the time. So that's my teachable 726 00:38:17,380 --> 00:38:24,820 moment. Very well said. Thank you. Well, we would love to receive feedback from our listeners on 727 00:38:24,820 --> 00:38:32,100 this storyline or how our episodes are even going this entire season so far. And there you have it, 728 00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:40,180 Beth. Talk to you next week and Beth, I'll talk to you in a few. Okay. And that's a wrap. That is a 729 00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:45,540 wrap. Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found. Before we go, we would love for you to leave a 730 00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:51,780 review on your favorite podcast platform. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and 731 00:38:51,780 --> 00:38:57,860 Pinterest at Dying to be Found. You can access our website, email, social media, and storyline 732 00:38:57,860 --> 00:39:03,940 request form by clicking on our Linktree account found in our show notes. If you like our episodes, 733 00:39:03,940 --> 00:39:10,500 consider buying us a coffee at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Dying to be Found spelled just like you see 734 00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:15,300 it on our logo. Feel free to message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing. With 735 00:39:15,300 --> 00:39:20,660 that, be sure to check us out every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. We will talk to 736 00:39:20,660 --> 00:39:34,180 you all next week. Bye.