Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found.
Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast.
Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Hi everyone, I'm Deb.
And I'm Beth.
And we want to welcome you to episode number 60. Beth, I can't believe this.
We're here.
Neither can I. Holy.
Isn't this crazy? Yes.
For our listeners, you don't ever know which family member is going to be here this season.
So today my sister Beth is here to help me out.
Beth, tell me what is new this week. I haven't talked to you.
It seems like in forever.
Well, I hear you're having spring in the area.
Yeah, I turned my air conditioning on last night because holy cow, it was too humid for my liking.
You know, I don't like that.
So I turned it on probably an hour and then turned it back off again.
But yeah, you know, mother nature is lying to us because we will get another cold snap.
Well, we got a cold snap because it is still winter up here in Canada.
There was an ice storm.
Oh.
So I had to go to get up for work and I couldn't get in my car.
It was so thick of ice.
Your car was frozen shut.
Yeah, the whole car was encapsuled in ice.
The whole car.
Wow.
I've never had that happen to me before.
And I even pulled the door handle and the door handle.
I thought it was, I was going to rip it off.
All I did was go up and Al was on the same shift.
So I says, can you please drive me to work?
And I got a ride home from a coworker.
Holy moly.
And then it's snowing now.
Isn't that funny how humans can adapt to their environment?
It's true.
Okay, so what does that do to gasoline?
How does gasoline not freeze?
I don't know.
Maybe one of our listeners can tell us.
Oh yes.
You know who could tell us?
Who?
My stepbrother, Sean.
Oh.
Yeah, I'm going to have to ask him that question.
You will.
And the crazy other crazy thing is I have to make sure my car is at least a quarter filled
through the cold snap.
In between the cold snaps, we do get warmer weather and I don't want to pay for my gasoline
door to get fixed.
Sometimes the lever will not open in the cold.
And so I can't gas up.
It's one of those that you pop open from the inside of the car?
Yes.
Wow.
So I would imagine it's a pretty penny.
So I'll just keep my car filled quarter down and that's it.
Actually, believe it or not, first of all, Sean is our stepbrother, not my stepbrother.
But secondly, our stepdad has always said you need to keep a half a tank in your car
at all times because it's better for the engine and you get better gas mileage.
Oh, I'd fit under that.
I know.
If Val gets in the car and it's three quarters downhill, he'll look at me and says, what's
wrong?
He knows he's going to get a gassed up car when he comes into the car.
So you're good about doing that.
Yes.
You know what I'm good about?
Nothing.
I'm good for nothing.
No, what?
Oh my gosh, Bethy Boo.
What are you good for?
I am good for driving on empty because that's how I roll.
It's very stressful, but sometimes when I hit the interstate and I'm like, I'm sliding
in on two wheels.
I've never run out of gas, knock on wood, but I do that a little bit too often.
And I don't know why.
Oh my gosh.
Why do I do that?
Al does the same thing.
I don't know why we do that.
Why does he do that?
Probably the same reason you do.
I have no explanation, so I don't know.
A lot of the time I'm traveling by myself and I want to get as far as I can along my
path before I have to.
I hate stopping for gas.
Oh my gosh.
If I have a, I'm not going to name names, but when I have a driving partner with me,
I swear to goodness, we have to stop every hour and that drives me crazy.
Well, don't know what else to say.
All right.
I have a question for you, Beth.
What is it?
How crafty are you?
As far as home improvements, I know you're very crafty.
You have this wonderful business that you have now and you are so artsy.
It is amazing how talented you are, but on a home improvements note, how crafty are you there?
One.
One on a scale of one to 10?
Yeah.
I got you.
I personally see that's what I love.
I like to do home improvements.
I feel such satisfaction if I can refurnish furniture, if I can paint a wall, anything
like that.
I love it.
I love restoring furniture.
I just put music on and I go.
And that is kind of what I like to do is that ending result.
When you get a good facelift, I'm not good at construction.
Never have.
I don't think I ever will.
I'm definitely not Tim the Toolman Taylor, but I just love getting into all that.
And the ending results for me is the big win.
So does Sarah, my daughter.
Do you ever see those old oak China cabinets?
Yes.
She refinished one.
She got one practically free.
Yeah.
She stripped it and painted it white and the inside where the cabinet is, is like a Robin
egg blue.
I think I saw that on social media.
That is amazing.
Go to the thrift store, see what you can find and definitely refinish it.
I'm actually on the hunt for maybe a bedroom set that I could do that with.
Yes.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, I asked you that question because a man named David Attenborough back in October of 2010,
he was renovating his home one day and he came upon an ominous discovery.
What?
Do you know who David Attenborough is?
No.
Yeah, I don't either, but he's pretty famous.
Is he?
Yeah, he's pretty famous in the sense that he helped to uncover one of the biggest crime
cases stemming all the way back to the 1800s.
Get out of here.
Mm-hmm.
And I know you love the Victorian era.
Yes.
And that's why I'm bringing you today.
Yay.
This story today is actually, it's got some really, I'm going to say eerie similarities
as far as that Amelia Dyer case that is it Amelia Dyer that we did a while back, the
baby farmer.
Yes.
Yeah.
So to me, it kind of reminded me of that story somewhat in a sense, probably because of where
the setting's at.
This did occur back in Richmond, Southwest London, and David Attenborough was working
in his backyard.
He was building an extension or doing something on his property when he stumbled upon a severed
head in the garden.
No.
Yes.
That is horrible.
The nightmares it would give me.
Oh gosh.
Yeah.
I mean, we can talk about this all day long, but put it in front of us physically is a
different story.
Absolutely.
Right.
Well, David obviously called authorities who immediately sent the skull off for analysis.
And this is what they found.
It belonged to 55 year old Julia Martha Thomas, who unfortunately had been murdered in her
home way back in 1879.
And I don't know what to do with that information digging up that part of something in your
yard.
I'm really curious how they were able to figure out who she was.
There's something called radiocarbon testing.
And I have a feeling what they do is they get into the whatever matter is inside the
bone structure of the skull.
I guess what they do is they see what exists inside the formation of the bone structure.
Scientists were able to determine, okay, so I guess what I'm looking for is I think they
can extract certain material from the bone structure, kind of like the marrow.
You know what I mean?
Yes.
Okay.
So what they do is they can determine when that person lived and what they ate.
And this goes-
What they ate?
Yeah.
Kind of like, do you remember doing the bog bodies?
Yes.
Same concept.
And I think, okay, looking back, that was somewhere in the 20s.
We talked about bog bodies, but there's something called marine dating, which does look at
what people eat during certain eras.
And back in 1879, people ate a lot of fish, which was consistent to London residents at
the time.
Okay.
Scientists were able to determine that whoever this skull belonged to lived between 1650
and 1880.
Isn't that something?
That would be really something.
It's one thing to find a dead body that was recent versus so far back.
Like how did it stay in the ground all that time?
Yeah, that's a good question, especially they obviously built a foundation of a home on
that property, but they just didn't hit that spot until the extension was being built.
Okay.
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to go ahead and tell you upfront who killed Julia.
Okay.
Her name was Kate Webster.
Kate, who at the age of 29 methodically killed Julia Thomas after recently being let go from
her job as a maid.
So let's just say that Kate was a disgruntled employee.
Hmm.
Now, do you get into telling us how they know it's Kate Webster?
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Oh yeah.
So Catherine Kate Lawler was born in Killen, Ireland.
I hope I said that right.
I went to pronounced.com, but you never know.
Listeners, tell me if I said that right because I'm not always good at that.
But Kate was born in 1848.
She came from a very poor family and learned how to steal at a very young age.
She eventually served time in prison as early as age 15, Beth.
Wow.
I know.
You do what you got to do to survive, right?
Yes.
And prison at 15.
I wonder what she did to...
I think she did a lot of petty theft, pickpocketing and things like that.
Okay.
So after accumulating numerous arrests in her early life, Kate decided to make a change
and off she went to Liverpool.
Things were obviously not much different here, Beth, because I like to say different places,
same old faces sort of thing.
You kind of find who you had in your past.
You always seek out the people that you already know.
Right.
So Kate soon fell into the same routine, petty theft.
She apparently wasn't any good at that because she landed herself back in prison again to
serve a four year sentence at the ripe old age of 18.
Oh.
I mean, poor thing.
That's a cycle she'll never get out of.
Oh no, absolutely not.
After serving this sentence, Kate moved on to London where she became a maid and a prostitute.
Hmm.
Clearly bad habits die hard because Kate frequently stole from her johns as well as
whoever she was rooming with at the time.
And by the time she was in her mid twenties, Kate was sent off to Wandsworth prison to
serve another 18 months for larceny.
You're right.
Bad habits don't die.
No.
By 1873, Beth, I'm not sure how she managed it, but Kate met a man who went by the
name of Mr. Strong.
He and Kate soon became fast lovers and criminal accomplices because they eventually began
participating in petty robberies together.
She got herself a partner in crime.
Bonnie and Clyde.
Once Kate realized that she was pregnant by Mr. Strong during this relationship, she of
course is going to give him the happy news, right?
Yes.
How do you think he reacted?
Well, he should be really excited.
Yeah. Well, he wasn't because he abandoned her.
Oh, that's sad.
It really is.
She is just not catching any breaks, is she?
No.
Nine months later in 1874, Kate gave birth to a son who she named John W. Webster.
Unfortunately, John's birth did not change Kate in her wayward activities because she
spent a lot of time in and out of prison for the next several years.
Anytime this would occur, Beth, Kate would pass her son down to a couple acquaintances,
let them take care of him.
And of course, this is going to come to play in just a moment.
But yeah, so she was sending him off to live with other people because she couldn't keep
out of jail.
In January 1879, Kate was once again released from prison where she drifted from job to
job and never really found steady work because, get this, Beth, she found that her employers
didn't have anything worth stealing.
That is horrible.
I mean, what's her mindset here?
Like, what is she looking for?
Because anything is worth stealing if you're a pickpocketer.
True, but I guess she's looking for the easy break, you know?
Yes.
Obviously, and clearly, she's not going to be reformed at this point.
If she's in her mid-20s.
No.
You know, there are people out there that find it easier to steal and do all this illegal
stuff than actually going out and working a real job.
Yes.
Anyway, so my question here is, when I was researching Kate and her persona, are we born
with this mechanism?
Is this ingrained in her?
I know she came from a poor family.
Was she taught this?
I know that our personalities, we are who we are by the age of five.
Really?
Or at least somewhere in that area.
I think it's relatively close.
It might even be three.
It could be younger than that.
So is this a learned behavior or is it ingrained in her?
That's really my question.
It's a very interesting question.
If we have any psychiatrists out there that can answer that question, definitely,
we would love to know that.
Yes.
Part of this, I think, is that if you look at the big picture, she's no joke.
I really think it comes from her soul.
And if you saw her picture, Beth, I don't know if you've looked her up, but I just
looking at the picture, she's got a dark soul.
You know how you can read people, right?
Yes.
Go look her up and let me.
Now?
Sure.
Let me know what you think.
Okay.
And while you do that, I'm going to continue with my little story here.
Kate eventually sought work as a maid.
Wait, I'll just clip it all.
I want you to see what she looks like.
Oh my gosh.
Did you see her buggy eyes?
I think she's got a dark soul, don't you?
Yes.
I know.
And see, even that picture reminds me of Amelia Dyer.
Yes, it does.
Now I know back in the time people didn't smile in their photos.
So is that part of it or is she just pissed off?
Well, it's those eyes to me.
Oh yeah.
But absolutely.
Well, Kate eventually sought work as a maid because I suppose she's trying to make an
honest living here.
When she went to work, she left her son, John, with those acquaintances that I told you about.
And one of those acquaintances referred Kate to a 55 year old widow named Julia Martha Thomas,
who needed some help around the house.
Off Kate went to work for Julia.
And remember now, Julia is the one whose skull was found in the garden.
Okay.
Now, Kate interviewed with Julia.
She was hired on the spot and she didn't even get any references.
Okay, you're hired.
This is what we commonly know as getting a background on people, folks.
I think it's kind of important, at least in today's day and age, but Julia did not do
any background checking on Kate.
Kate was hired immediately.
And what Kate found out is that Julia was considered somewhat of a strict employer.
Oh, you mean she had work ethic?
I like that.
Julia was known to have some harsh words.
Coming behind Kate, inspecting her work.
Gosh, Beth, that just brought back a memory.
Did she grow up military?
Because isn't that kind of how dad was when we did chores around the house?
Didn't he always come inspect our work?
Yes.
Do you remember rolling up the carpet every Saturday in the living room, in the basement
living room?
We rolled that sucker up every Saturday.
Oh yeah.
I don't remember rolling it up every week.
I do remember raking the shag rug after we vacuumed.
Oh boy.
Yes.
Back in the day.
Oh my goodness.
Well, long story short, Julia and Kate did not see eye to eye very much.
They had a personality conflicts.
Julia was set in her ways.
Obviously she had been a widow, so she had been married a long time.
And she was 55 years old at the time.
Kate was in her twenties.
Kate obviously did not take kindly to authority.
So they just had this constant wedge between them.
In fact, Kate preferred to party on a regular basis at the local pub as opposed to working
for a living.
So how about that?
Well, that sounds about right, but it shocks me.
How come it shocks you?
I don't know.
I just don't think of women back then partying and drinking.
Yeah, that's true.
You're right.
I feel the same way.
I suppose in the back of my head, I'm thinking, wow, okay.
So she's out there at the bars.
First of all, it was all about reputation in there as well.
During that era, it was all about reputation.
Yes.
So a woman in a bar in the 1870s, absolutely.
That would be definitely scandalous.
Don't you think?
Yes.
Well, Kate was fired relatively quickly because she spent more time in those bars than working
for Julia.
And Kate didn't much like being fired, obviously.
I was fired once.
I didn't like it either.
Where were you fired from?
Oh gosh, Beth.
Okay.
So this is before I started teaching you all.
If you're a new listener, I'm a teacher.
I've always worked for a not-for-profit company.
And then I got laid off way back in, I don't know, the 2008, 2009.
I got laid off.
And then I went to go work for a company that was a for-profit.
And I say I will never work for a for-profit again.
They have no scruples.
I literally worked there for less than a year, probably somewhere around 10 months or so.
And for some reason I was called into the office, fired on the spot.
Don't even know why.
They didn't give me an explanation.
I have no idea.
What?
You don't know this story?
No.
I know I was a scapegoat for something.
That's weird.
Anyway, that's the corporate world for you.
All right.
Back to Kate here.
Kate didn't much like being fired Beth because on March 22nd, 1879, after she went a few rounds
of drinks at the local pub, she went over to Julia's house,
waited for her to return home from church, then straight up attacked her.
That seems like quite a difference between the two, drinking and church.
Yes, you're probably right.
That probably had a lot to do with their personality conflicts.
Yeah.
I never thought of that.
Well, if this wasn't enough, Kate proceeded to push Julia down a flight of stairs.
And after realizing that Julia had injuries that she could probably easily explain to
maybe the authorities, Kate proceeded to strangle Julia to death.
Wow.
That's gruesome.
Women aren't known to strangle.
I saw that on one of the investigative discovery shows I was watching.
And that's what they said.
Women do not strangle.
And back in the day, didn't they use poison a lot?
Yes.
Obviously she had anger issues.
And then let's add alcohol to the mix, right?
Exactly.
Afterwards, Kate gave Julia one last whack on the head with an axe for good measure.
Oh my gosh.
I know, right?
All for getting fired over being irresponsible.
Geez. Once Kate finished the job, she methodically cut Julia up into several pieces by using a saw,
razor, and kitchen knife.
You know, this really, I guess I hate to use the word intrigues, but it's very interesting
that a woman strangles, cuts, hits with an axe.
Those just seem to be all masculine related ways of death.
So true.
And look at her picture though.
Doesn't she look a little masculine other than her, was she wearing a bonnet?
Yes, she does.
Yes.
Well, obviously she's a hundred percent vested in carrying this out, Beth.
I don't know what could have been going through her mind, but that's just nuts.
Yeah.
All right.
After Kate completed her dirty deeds, she proceeded to do a couple other things with
Julia's remains.
She placed Julia into a pot of boiling water that she was brewing on the stove.
Once Julia's body began to cook, Beth, I don't need to be this gruesome.
And I said I wasn't going to do this, but I'm just trying to give you the aspects of
what's happening here.
Okay.
Once Julia's body began to boil down, Kate was overtaken by either the smell or I'm not
going to call it remorse, Beth, but probably the realization of what she had just done
because she found herself to be very disgusted with the circumstances.
So what do you think that she did?
Well, take her out of, I don't know, the only thing I think is take her out of the pot and
bury the remains.
Yeah, that actually happened eventually.
Oh, what in the world did she do?
She went back to the pub to kick back a few more drinks before returning to finish the
job.
Oh, that's, that is so disgusting.
Like this whole story is quite different from what we normally do or even read or, you
know, even criminal minds didn't have anything this bad.
When Kate returned to Julia's house, she did finish the job, then packed Julia's remains
up into a box and took a little trip over to a little river called the Thames to make
a deposit.
See, this is where Amelia Dyer comes in too.
There was a lot of dumping grounds in the Thames back in the 1800s, I imagine.
Yeah.
Before tossing Julia's remains into the Thames river, she made sure that she removed
Julia's gold teeth because obviously, Beth, she's a thief.
Oh my God.
And it was all about the almighty dollar here.
Wow.
This story just gets worse and worse.
When I say methodical, Beth, like you have to commit to this.
And I mean, what is her mindset?
Obviously, she is inebriated.
Well, that's kind of wear off at some point in time.
What the heck?
People weren't diagnosed a lot of times back then, but she obviously had mental health
issues.
Yeah, I agree.
And that will come into play maybe towards the end of our episode today, but Julia's
head and foot, Beth, did not fit into that box.
So this is where Kate ended up burying Julia's remains in the garden.
That's when we come back to old David Attenborough from Richmond, South London.
He was the one that dug up Julia's remains back in 2010.
Wow.
After Kate returned to Julia's house, she went on to complete her duties as assigned.
She was a hired maid.
So obviously, Beth, she cleaned up after herself and proceeded to clean up Julia's
house entirely.
That's so weird, isn't it?
Uh-huh.
After a good night's rest, Kate squatted at the residence.
She took up residency there.
She took any leftover evidence, placed them in the fireplace.
So anything that was left behind after she cleaned up went into the fireplace.
Kate even tried to sell Julia's cooked down remains as cooking fat or simply to feed
street children to get rid of the evidence.
Oh my gosh.
Now, obviously, Beth, we also talked about Robert Picton here and the rendering plant
that he would take things to.
Yes.
I mean, that's so many full circle things here as far as human behavior.
It's quite interesting how we can relate now that we've done 59 episodes.
This is being the 60th that so many cases are related in a way to another.
Like you said, we see Robert Picton and Amelia Dyer in this story.
Mm-hmm.
Well, something that I had not mentioned was that Julia was somewhat of a recluse and
didn't have any family in the picture.
So she didn't interact with the community.
She really, I mean, yes, she went to church, but she didn't do a whole lot of interaction
or things like that.
Of course, Kate's going to take advantage of this, right?
Yes.
When Kate took up residence, she claimed to whoever she may have encountered that she
was Julia's niece and told them that she had just inherited the house.
So Kate being Kate, doing what Kate does, she begins selling off Julia's furniture to earn
some quick cash.
She did not wait very long to just do what she does.
No.
The next day, fishermen discovered a floating box in the Thames River, which at this point,
Beth, was Julia's remains.
Oh dear.
However, because Julia was a recluse and didn't interact with very many people, nobody missed
her on the days that preceded the discovery of her remains.
That's pretty sad not to have anybody in your life like that.
I know.
That's got to be lonely.
I mean, at least she got out and went to church, but then again, obviously she's not interacting
with too many people from church.
Well, we've known a recluse in our lives.
Oh yes.
Yes, very much so.
You're right.
I now realize it's social anxiety that they had.
I agree.
Very much so.
Undiagnosed.
Right.
Little did Kate know that a neighbor had taken notice of the furniture that was being removed
from Julia's house, and they called police to voice concerns because, Beth, back in the
day, either Julia herself would probably be overseeing this removal or at least her maid,
which in this case was Kate Webster.
And I guess they were probably thinking that somebody was breaking into the house and removing
furniture.
And it's always good to have a nosy neighbor, don't you think?
I don't know.
Along came the police to check things out.
And what do you think Kate does at this point?
She stands up for herself and says that she had the house gifted to her.
No, she ran off to Ireland.
Get out of here.
For good measure, Kate fled wearing one of Julia's outfits and jewelry because she had
to snatch something.
And of course, police didn't know it at this time, but they did take her running off as
a sign of guilt.
So what are they going to do?
They tracked her down rather quickly at that because Kate thought it would be a good idea,
Beth, to hide out in the hometown where she was born.
That's very clever.
Not.
On March 28th, 1879, Kate was located while hiding out on her uncle's farm, still wearing
Julia's dress and jewelry on her person.
So the police caught up with her rather quickly.
I mean, she had a record.
They could easily track her down.
They knew where she was born.
I don't know if they took fingerprints back then.
They probably did, but they had pretty good records of her being in and out of prison
as many times as she was.
Kate was extradited back to London where the man who had bought Julia's furniture identified
her as the person who sold it to him.
All right.
So what kind of reactions do you think Kate's going to do at this point with the man's
accusations or at least identification?
I'm guessing maybe trying to kill him.
Nope, because she was already in custody, but she did try to pin Julia's murder on her.
But she did try to pin Julia's murder on him.
And of course, police at this point, anytime somebody is accused, they have to look into it.
But he had a pretty solid alibi, so they didn't really go very far after that.
They dropped him as a suspect rather quickly.
Good.
Once police established a timeline of Kate's movements, they eventually went back to Julia's
house to conduct a thorough investigation.
And this is when they discovered blood stains in the home, burnt bone fragments in the fireplace,
and fatty substances located by the hearth where Kate had boiled down some of Julia's body parts.
That's pretty gruesome.
It is.
On July 2nd, 1879, Kate Webster stood trial for Julia's murder.
The courthouse was packed to the gills because, Beth, what else did people in the 1879 have to do
with their time?
They didn't have all the distractions that we do today.
Exactly.
One of the star witnesses for the prosecution was a hat maker who testified that Kate had come into
her shop a week before Julia's murder to say that she was looking to sell some property and jewelry
that her aunt had left in her will, which obviously, Beth, this set Kate up for premeditation.
Oh. On July 9th, 1878, after a six-day trial, Kate Webster was found guilty by a jury of peers.
After just one hour of deliberation, Kate was sentenced to death by hanging.
Once Kate realized that her fate was sealed, she claimed that she was pregnant just to stall for
time, hoping to avoid the death penalty. Beth, she was grasping at straws because they quickly
found out that she was not pregnant.
Good.
Kate also tried to pin Julia's murder on her child's father, but of course, those were lies.
She's a habitual liar here.
After multiple attempts to pin Julia's death on multiple people, the court system obviously did
not buy anything she had to say and went on with the execution.
On July 28th, 1879, the night before her execution, Kate knew that she was pretty much
done in for and finally confessed straight up that she was the one that had killed Julia.
Now that surprises me.
I know, right? Usually people don't do that.
I know.
Well, she had it all in writing because I'm actually going to read her confession.
Quote, Mrs. Thomas came in and went upstairs. I went up after her and we had an argument,
which ripened into a quarrel. In the height of my anger and rage,
I threw her from the top of the stairs to the ground floor.
She had a heavy fall and I became agitated at what had occurred, lost all control of myself,
and to prevent her screaming and getting me into trouble, I caught her by the throat.
And in the struggle, she was choked and I threw her on the floor.
Beth, I'm not going to continue on with this because it gets rather gruesome,
but this is where she goes into detail on what she did with Julia after she had choked her.
So I'll let you use your imagination there.
So on July 29th, 1879, Kate was hanged in a public setting with hundreds of people in attendance,
just the same amount of people that were probably at her trial also went to go see her executed.
But I guess really, Beth, that really shows that we do as human beings have morbid curiosity.
We do.
Look what we're doing right now.
I know. And even back in the Roman days when they had their big stadiums
of animal against man or man against man and everybody standing around cheering.
That is because they have the Colosseum in Rome.
Yes.
Well, Kate was accompanied by the executioner who placed a white hood over her head.
And any guesses on what her last words may have been?
I didn't really do it.
No, she never said that because she did make that confession,
but she pretty much threw obscenities to the onlookers while she was hanged.
The end.
Oh, well, I guess you don't change your personality.
No, and to the bitter end too, eh?
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Well, Beth, we've also talked about, is it Madame Tussaud, the wax figure?
Yes.
We've also talked about them and was it the Bog Bodies that we did that with or was that another episode?
I think it was another episode.
Yeah, so let's tell our listeners, you're going to have to listen to 59 episodes and get back to us
on which one that was because again, we're coming full circle.
We are.
Kate Webster was such a notorious case from the Victorian era that she too became a subject of
Madame Tussaud's wax museum, which remained on display for over 80 years.
Wow. I guess it wouldn't be being shown now.
Oh yeah. So much more stuff has occurred since then.
Well, not just that, but I'm just trying to think.
I know they have a big exhibit of the Royal Family.
Do they?
I think it's her. I don't think it's Ripley's.
Oh, don't you remember? I think it was in H.H. Holmes who was fitted.
No, somebody was fitted for their wax-like figure by Madame Tussaud herself.
Do you remember?
I do remember that. See, I don't know, listeners, just DM us and let us know which episode that was.
What does DM mean?
It means direct message.
Oh, you used that with me and I'm thinking, or another girlfriend did, and I'm thinking, what is DM?
Yeah, slide into our DMs, people.
I'm not techie. Debby's a techie one.
You say what now?
I'm sorry. Deb is a techie one.
Oh, goodness. No, I work around adolescents all day, Beth. That's how I'm able to keep up with the lingo
because we have a generation gap and I know it.
Well, Bethyboo, that is the story of Kate Webster and Julia Martha Thomas.
Another awesome story. Thanks, Deb.
You're welcome.
I hate to say I really enjoyed it, but it was intriguing and something that we haven't done
before is something like this. Yeah, because this went definitely at a higher level than Amelia.
Well, not necessarily because if you guys go back and listen to that one, I mean, Beth, the caliber,
there's no comparisons other than maybe what the two women looked like. There's no comparisons
because of the horrific things that Amelia Dyer did in comparison to what Kate Webster did.
I think the only thing that we have as far as similarities here is that they're both in the
Victorian era and honestly, they both look very similar. They have a lot of the same features.
They do. So Deb, do you have a teachable moment for us?
Of course, Beth. It's been a while since I've been able to tell you one, but you actually brought
this up earlier and I told you we'd get to it. Well, teachable moment. Seek help if you have anger
issues. It's my understanding that Julia had given Kate notice that she was being fired and this is
not something I actually mentioned during this episode, but Kate convinced Julia to let her stay
for a few more days before she went on her merry way. And obviously we already know that these women
did not see eye to eye in this relationship and clearly it was just, it was toxic. Regardless of
the circumstances, I don't think counseling was a regular thing back in 1879. You already mentioned
that, but today we definitely have so many more resources, maybe even keeping a journal. I heard
that really helps. Some people love to do that and you can definitely go back to see what you wrote,
maybe how you were feeling that day, identify all sorts of things. But my teachable moment is
if you recognize that you do have anger issues, it's really important to seek help for something
obviously you cannot manage on your own. We all have outbursts. I mean, it's human nature, right?
Yes. You don't want a record following you around for your entire life or something that you could
have in the whole scheme of things likely been able to control at the time. So that's my teachable
moment. Very well said. Thank you. Well, we would love to receive feedback from our listeners on
this storyline or how our episodes are even going this entire season so far. And there you have it,
Beth. Talk to you next week and Beth, I'll talk to you in a few. Okay. And that's a wrap. That is a
wrap. Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found. Before we go, we would love for you to leave a
review on your favorite podcast platform. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and
Pinterest at Dying to be Found. You can access our website, email, social media, and storyline
request form by clicking on our Linktree account found in our show notes. If you like our episodes,
consider buying us a coffee at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Dying to be Found spelled just like you see
it on our logo. Feel free to message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing. With
that, be sure to check us out every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. We will talk to
you all next week. Bye.