Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found.
Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions
on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this
podcast.
Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Hi everyone, I'm Deb, your host for Dying to be Found, a true crime podcast.
If you are new around here, thanks so much for joining in because you really picked a
good episode.
My son Cory is here to listen to one of my tales today.
If our listeners have been around a while, you know I love to pull in a different family
member each week and by now you've heard Beth, Shelby, and today you know that having
Cory here means that you're going to get a rough and tough episode of true crime.
Cory, what did you think of our last episode of DB Cooper?
Oh, it was fun.
It was really interesting.
I like that kind of stuff.
Little mystery there.
Okay.
We want to know what our listeners think of season two so far, so be sure to DM us at
Dying to be Found or message us when you see our post on social media.
This is episode number 56 of Dying to be Found and Cory, I really have a good one today.
I'm really excited about this storyline.
Yeah, it'll be a good one.
I don't know the names, but I know of the story, so basically going in this blind.
Good.
I like it that way.
I like to keep surprises and then it just leaves everything open for interpretation,
of course, because that's all in our name.
So today we're going to be talking about Frank Morris and the England brothers.
I know before we started recording, I asked if you even knew who these people were and
of course I told you Cory that we're going to be talking about Escape from Alcatraz.
So we'll get to them in just a moment, but first you have experience in law enforcement
and around here, everyone starts working at a county jail before you can go on and do
what you really want to do.
Do you want to give us one of your best stories from working with inmates?
The best story, I don't, yeah, it makes me sick talking about it.
I don't know if I want to say it.
They just get really, really desperate in there.
Yeah, there's how bad do you want me to go on this?
I won't like cuss or anything, but it's just really gross.
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Do it.
I'm ready.
Hey, listen, I'm usually the one that is giving the gross part of the story, so I'll take it
from you today.
Okay.
So there was this guy that I think he was in the jail for aggravated assault and I think
he just got sentenced and after they get sentenced, then they kind of lose their marbles.
This guy comes over the intercom.
I can't remember what he was complaining about, but he wanted something and he wasn't getting
his way.
So he says, all right, I'll show you, so we run out there and we don't know what to expect.
And we get there and there he is naked in the shower.
He had defecated on the floor and he picked it up and put it in his mouth and started
chewing.
Oh.
We weren't really sure what to do at that point.
What did you do?
Oh my gosh.
I actually tried to tase him, but my taser malfunctioned.
So I ended up not being able to tase him.
Now he was in the shower.
Would you have gotten electrocuted?
No, the shower wasn't on.
He was just in there.
He was just having a little tantrum.
Okay.
Yeah.
I've got a thousand stories, but that was-
Okay.
Now you said he was on the intercom.
Yeah.
They've got a little intercom that they can talk to the main tower through.
Oh, okay.
So if they need things like soap and whatnot, we can grab that and bring it down to him.
But he just has a lot of anger issues and doesn't know how to control them.
And he just went to the extreme and I've got a thousand stories, but that is the one that
really stuck with me.
That's the one that came to mind automatically because we're not on script here.
Wow.
Okay.
Well, thanks for that.
Yeah.
I was nauseous for the rest of the day.
I'll bet you were.
Today we are talking about the infamous escape from Elcatraz case.
I know you've probably seen a movie of this once or twice, right, Corey?
Yeah.
There's, I mean, I'm not really a big movie guy, but there is that one movie where it
turns out he was in it the whole time.
I can't remember what it's called.
I think the guy from Titanic's in it.
I don't know.
Not a movie guy.
I know Clint Eastwood had directed one.
I think it was the original version called escape from Elcatraz.
That is way before your time.
But I also think there, there was a movie called the rock and it had Sean Connery in
it and maybe the guy was that wrestlers name that goes by the rock.
I think he was in it too.
Oh, Dwayne the rock Johnson.
Yeah.
I think he was in that one too.
Anyway, lots of history behind Elcatraz and it is also known as the rock, which is a
small Island located directly off of the San Francisco Bay in California.
It was made into a maximum security prison that dates all the way back to the civil war.
Did you even know that?
No, I didn't know it was at all.
Neither did I.
I think that it was a fort at one time and then they turned it into apparently the most
secure prison in the United States by 1934.
They had, I don't know what you call that.
Is it decommissioned?
Like they decommissioned the fort.
Yeah, I think that's right.
And then they recommissioned it into a maximum security prison, which was the most secure
prison for its time back in 1934.
And during its active periods, Corey, several famous inmates were housed at Elcatraz.
Don't know if you've heard of anybody that I'm about to mention Al Capone, also known
as Scarface.
He was in there for tax evasion.
How about George Machine Gun Kelly?
I think that's a rapper.
Okay.
Well, he stole it.
He stole it from the guy that was sent there for kidnapping a wealthy oil executive way
back in the day.
Probably not the same.
Yeah, probably not.
I would say probably not.
And then Robert Stroud, who is also known as the Birdman of Alcatraz, he was actually
sent there at some point where he was known for studying birds in other prisons and he
was allowed to have birds wherever he was kept.
But once they sent him to Alcatraz, they wouldn't let him have the birds, but he was known as
the Birdman of Alcatraz.
I don't really know much about him, but I definitely have heard of Al Capone and I may
have heard of Machine Gun Kelly and it was not the rapper.
But Alcatraz was established to be an elite maximum prison, not for the rich, but for
the tough prisoners, Corey, who refused to follow the rules established in other prisons
throughout the United States.
So any of the, I don't know what you call them, cronies, any of the people that just
absolutely would not follow the rules were sent to Alcatraz.
Prisoners would earn privileges for good behavior in Alcatraz and if they complied, they would
have access to jobs, family visits, access to books, and engage in recreational activities.
Doesn't that sound like today's prison system?
Yeah, it sounds a lot like it.
If these were luxuries that they got back in the 1930s, honestly, Corey, I really think
back in those days, they just sent people off to prison to rot and honestly, that's
all I can think of.
So earning privileges back then were really, really big.
It's standard today, but you know how things obviously change over time.
Yeah, and they get pretty unhappy whenever they do lose those privileges, but I mean,
they're for a reason.
They couldn't follow the rules outside of prison, so they got sent to prison.
Yeah, that's true.
Can't follow the rules there, kind of like it falls through.
Yeah, domino effect, sure.
Well, personally, I wanted to see if Alcatraz was a manmade island because I've seen the
picture and to me, it simply does not look like a natural island.
It's a random island that sits off the coast in the San Francisco Bay area.
I don't know if you've actually, I know you've seen pictures.
Yeah, I'm pulling up a picture right now.
Well, the majority of it is made up of rock.
Obviously, this is why they call it the rock.
And the best way that I can describe it is that Alcatraz sits on some geological plates
that I'm going to let you and our listeners go look up because it's very technical.
And you know, a couple of things, Corey, when you do this podcast with me, you learn a little
bit about your mother.
I don't even know if you knew that I failed my geology class in college.
Did you know that?
I did not know that.
I am not a scientist in any way, shape or form.
Corey, I didn't fail that class once.
I failed it not even twice.
I failed it.
My third attempt in summer school, I could not pass geology to save my life.
Not really a big fan of school either.
So you got your doctorate.
Well it took me a long time.
Go look up how that island was formed.
It's sitting on a bunch of geological platelets, whatever you call those these days.
And Alcatraz was built in the middle of the San Francisco Bay because military and corrections
officials believed that between the icy cold waters and strong currents, these would deter
prisoners from ever trying to escape.
But they were wrong because during the 29 years that Alcatraz remained in operation,
36 men attempted to escape over 14 separate occasions.
Most of them were caught or did not survive the bay's rough conditions, but three inmates
did make their escape and to this day, Corey, they've never been found.
It's actually a smaller number that I would think people would try to escape.
The successful one too, but I mean it's really rough conditions.
I mean I'm not going to go swimming in that water.
I'm not going to go out there either.
You know me and sharks and I heard great white sharks really love to feed off the seals in
that area.
It's cold water, but they're still there.
Yeah, I've heard it's very shark infested over there, but yeah, they definitely like
the colder water because that's where all the seals are at.
Absolutely.
We're going to talk about the infamous prison break that was not meant to be.
There were three men involved with some very intricate planning.
Originally Corey, there were four men that should have made this escape, but one of them
never made it out of his cell on time on the night that the other three did escape.
Not sure what deterred him at the time, but apparently the men had timed everything perfectly
and one of them just couldn't get away to make that escape.
Probably forgot to send his alarm.
Probably so.
Well, the first of the three men to escape Alcatraz was Frank Morris.
He was assigned to this maximum security prison in 1960 after being convicted for bank robbery,
burglary and multiple attempts of escaping other prison systems.
He was currently serving a 10 year sentence.
Frank was considered a man of high intelligence and you'll see why in just a bit, but he was
actually measured to have an IQ of 133.
Just to give you perspective of this Corey, I don't know if you know much about the IQ
measurements.
Yeah, I do.
Do you now?
Yeah, I've looked into it.
Oh cool.
Okay.
Not much, but I've looked into it.
I've done a little bit of research.
Okay.
Frank Morris, he was supposedly around 160.
I don't think that he was formerly measured, but people believe that he was right around
there.
So honestly, Frank is not too far off from that as far as his intelligence.
He was just a really smart guy.
I don't think I'd want to be that smart.
That's just too smart.
Honestly, Corey, when people are that smart, first of all, their personalities are really
different.
Yeah.
What do you do with all that smartness?
A lot of serial killers are of high intelligence just from my experience and research.
I wanted to give you just a little bit of a background because Frank really didn't have
it easy growing up.
He was abandoned by his family and placed into an orphanage at the age of 11.
He had moved between foster homes quite a bit as an adolescent and began his criminal
activities when he was probably around the age of 14.
So he just didn't have a lot of role models in those formative years.
And interestingly enough, I discovered that the guys that I'm talking about today, Corey,
they all have Southern roots.
Frank was an active bank robber out of Louisiana where he was first in prison, but sent to Alcatraz
after those numerous escapes.
The England brothers that I'm going to talk about next, they come from Alabama, Florida,
and Georgia.
Oh, oh.
Shortly after Frank was sent to Alcatraz, John and Clarence England arrived there as
well to serve a 35 year sentence each for bank robbery.
So it seemed to be the thing of the time, right?
Yeah.
So what all the cool kids are doing.
John and Clarence were two of 14 children.
And like I mentioned, they were active criminals in Alabama, Florida, and Georgia.
They came from a very poor family of crop pickers and also began their criminal careers
as teenagers.
And just like Frank Morris, the England brothers also attempted to escape prison several times
and they were sent to Alcatraz to finish out their sentence.
I'm going to mention this fourth man that I had said was supposed to make this escape
at the same time as the other three.
Allen West was serving time at Alcatraz for car theft after serving time in the Atlanta
penitentiary and Florida state prison systems.
He is that fourth guy who never made it out of his cell on time because you said he didn't
set his alarm.
Like Morris and the England brothers, he also made multiple attempts to escape and off he
went to Alcatraz.
So that was just for the unreformed criminals and people that made multiple escapes constantly
being sent obviously to maximum security.
Yeah.
I mean, it seems like they didn't have the best childhoods and especially, you know,
getting passed around with different homes, that's going to take a toll on a child, especially
at that early age.
And yeah, typically 14 years old is a prime time for them to start doing petty crimes
and it escalates from there.
Because it's how, especially with gangs, they'll start at that age, they'll start breaking
into cars and whatnot and start to steal things from gas stations, just smaller stuff and
it escalates from there and they have to build their reputation up.
Usually starts early before they're 18 and a lot of the time they know that they can't
get in trouble because they're, I mean, they're kids.
They can't get in trouble until 17 years old.
So they're already manipulating the system.
Oh yeah.
At the very beginning of their lives, yeah.
And they don't have any kind of family figures, any strong role models.
So that's why they turn to crime because they've got people around them that are basically
acting as family.
Yeah.
I think I did an episode one time on gang related activities and that was a thing.
And we're talking about those 14 year old boys who did consider gang members, their
family members.
Oh, that's a shame.
Oh yeah.
Well, Frank Morris, John and Clarence England and Alan West were already familiar with each
other before they got to Alcatraz because they had spent time together in some of those
prison systems that I had already mentioned.
And as luck would have it, they had adjoining cells.
So what do you think that they were up to almost immediately?
Oh, you've got nothing but time to plan.
Absolutely.
And I'll tell you this, they worked meticulously for over a year to escape from Alcatraz.
Yeah.
You got to do it right.
Make sure everything's perfect.
Take that time.
I mean, they're probably serving upwards of 10 years.
So I mean, what's one year of planning?
Yeah, absolutely.
To make sure they get it right because otherwise they'll get more charges if they get caught,
if they don't get it perfect.
Yeah.
And you know, I didn't really see anything on if Alan West got any charges for being
involved.
But we'll get into his conversation a little bit later because a lot of this information
comes from him on that planning and everything that went behind it.
They all began planning in December of 1961.
Frank, John, Clarence, and Alan all began using spoons from the cafeteria to chip away
at the concrete walls.
I think you saw that movie Shawshank Redemption, right?
Nope.
I have not seen any.
Are you kidding?
Yeah, I always say I've never seen any movie ever because I've never seen any movies.
Okay.
Well, for our listeners, I know that you have seen Shawshank Redemption.
And if you were thinking about the big poster on the wall with Raquel Welch, she was a really
popular pinup model back in the early 60s.
Corey, if you've never seen the movie, you wouldn't understand.
But they basically started chipping away at the concrete walls.
One of the main characters from that movie was honestly doing the same thing.
And every time a new poster of Raquel Welch came out, he would get it and pin it up on
his wall.
And the guards always said something about the pinup poster.
Well, unbeknownst to them, he had been chipping away at the concrete wall for decades.
And this is probably what these guys were doing too, because I cannot see how they could
not have been caught doing this unless it was tucked away, you know, maybe behind their
bed or something.
I don't know.
I couldn't really find any information on where they were chipping away at these things.
But I would assume the back wall where the close probably close to where the toilet is
because they've got to have that toilet.
I would think they'd have to have it on the back wall with all the pipes and whatnot.
They're probably just chipping into where the whole plumbing system is and whatnot,
because it's going to be a bigger open area.
I don't know.
They were actually diligent enough because there was some kind of access chute back behind
wherever they were chipping away at.
And over that period of time, they spent over a year doing this, Corey, they were able to
throw stuff through that chute.
I mean, as far as supplies, they were just able to throw whatever down their chute and
save it for later.
They manufactured a periscope that allowed them to monitor the guards activities while
they were working.
So one of them is using the periscope to watch the guards while the other guys were working
away in a secret workshop, which was behind the walls of their prison cells.
It was an area that nobody ever went to.
It was not monitored.
I don't even know.
But just a real quick question.
Does any of this give you the heebie-jeebies about what inmates are up to when you're there
and working?
Oh yeah.
They're always up to something.
When I was working in the jail, they're always up to something.
And I would always say they're not the smartest people, but my God, they are clever.
Because they got nothing to do but make things up and think and nothing but time.
And they're not thinking about, what's the word, reform?
No, no.
They're not thinking about what they did.
They're thinking about ways to get out of it.
All right, so here's a little comical part.
Or maybe not.
Who knows?
Let me know.
How do you think these guys covered up the drilling noises and everything else that they
were doing when they had their little workshop back behind their cells?
What do you think they were doing?
I don't know.
They'd have to... I mean, that chipping is going to make noise.
I mean, I wouldn't expect them to be able to use a plastic spoon to chip away at a stone
wall.
Also, I mean, that metal spoon is going to be loud.
So maybe banging things up against bars.
Nope.
Close though.
Alan West had a talent.
He liked to play the accordion.
That's loud.
You let them have an accordion in prison?
Yes.
And here's why.
They did have a good reason for it, Corey, because every day for an hour, the guards
played the accordion over the intercom system to keep the prisoners calm.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Music makes a big difference for them.
Yeah.
Alan West was in charge of that.
So the other three guys were just smart enough to time everything just right and all the
noises that went with it.
But for any of you who don't know what an accordion is, I mean, Corey, do you even know
what it is?
Yeah.
You just pull it apart, put it together.
It's that... Yeah.
Yeah.
Just tap it on your front.
You pull and push and the air goes through and then you play a little piano keyboard on
the side and you play the polka.
That's what you do.
Yeah.
It looks like what Wile E. Coyote turns into after he gets hit by a giant stone.
Yes.
All right.
Since music hour was during waking hours, Corey, how do you think Frank Morris and the
Anglin brothers got away with working in that corridor?
So I asked you, how do you think they got away with the sounds?
Now I'm going to ask, how do you think they got away with working in the corridors behind
their jail cells?
I don't know.
I have no idea.
Okay.
So they skillfully created heads from cotton sheets, plaster, soap, flesh tone paint, and
real human hair that made the decoys as real as possible.
So they made almost like paper mache heads.
How about that?
Like I said, nothing but time.
No, they didn't.
And so what they would do is they would put those heads on their pillows and they would
make it look like they were taking a nap because again, this was during waking hours and it
looked like they were taking a nap.
And at that time they would sneak out into their secret workshop to continue their plan
without ever being revealed.
Now remember Corey, this went on for over a year.
What are your thoughts on that?
Like what are the prison guards doing?
They're being complacent for sure.
I assume they have to do checks.
We had to do checks every hour, relatively on the hour, but we'd still keep it somewhat
random so they wouldn't expect us just to make sure they're not doing anything they're
not supposed to be doing, but that's just complacency.
Yeah, that makes sense.
Or they could have been paid off.
Yeah, that's true too.
There's corruption within the jail and prison system for sure.
All right.
I'm going to talk about the night of the escape.
On June 11th, 1962, Frank, John, and Clarence made their way down that corridor behind their
cells.
They collected their things, climbed up into the tight air vents, made their way up to
the roof and slipped across a 100 foot section without being detected by the guards in the
watchtowers.
That is astounding.
Yeah, it's a lot.
It's ballsy.
They then shimmy down a 50 foot smokestack.
They climbed a 12 foot barbed wire fence, went to the northeast section of the prison
and launched a makeshift raft into the San Francisco Bay.
How'd they make a raft?
Oh, well, I mean, I'll tell you now, but I'll probably go into this in a couple of minutes.
They actually made it, Cory, out of raincoats.
Oh wow.
Yeah, that were donated by other prisoners.
Yeah, I don't, I have no idea how they could have gotten through all of those checkpoints
without getting caught, especially with when they come up to that 12 foot fence with barbed
wire.
Cause that had to have taken a little bit of time to get through.
Yeah.
But really with those, you just have to throw like a rug over barbed wire is pretty easy
to defeat.
Is it?
Yeah.
Well, the day of the discovery on June 12th, 1962, something that Elcatraz was known for
was that its prison staff would conduct body counts on its inmates several times a day,
kind of like what you just said, Cory, but they wouldn't do it on the hour every hour.
They just did it several times a day every day.
However, on June 12th, 1962, three beds were missing Frank Morris, John Anglin and Clarence
Anglin.
Now remember these guys had placed those plastic heads on their pillows and it looked like
they were sleeping.
These heads were so well designed that the three men made their escape hours before even
being discovered.
So they had a really big head start.
Yeah.
A long time.
And the guard making his rounds likely took notice, I can't say for sure because I really
don't have a lot of information on what time of day it was that they discovered the three
guys missing.
But what he had done is that he reached through the bars to nudge Frank Morris.
Imagine his surprise, Cory, when the head rolled to the floor.
This would be one of those, what would you do moments?
Yeah.
I don't know what I'd do.
I know I'm in deep trouble for allowing that to happen.
Obviously in a media, all points bulletin went out on Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers.
Family members were interviewed and boat operators in the San Francisco Bay were told to keep
an eye out for debris that may have been used in the men's escape.
So I had mentioned that they had made the lifeboat, made the raft out of raincoats.
They actually used 50 raincoats at that time.
They were all donated by other inmates.
A few things were quickly recovered, including a packet of letters sealed in waterproof packaging
and a set of makeshift paddles.
So how about that?
They definitely had their ducks in a row.
Yeah.
I just can't believe they were able to carry all that.
I wonder if they just had it all waiting for them.
So they probably made that trick a couple of times to get that wrapped out there because
I couldn't imagine them maneuvering like that with all that.
Wow.
That's a good thought process there.
I never thought of that.
How do you think they learned how to make a raft out of raincoats?
Do you think?
Any guesses?
Yeah.
They probably flooded their cell.
If I had to guess, they probably flooded their cell because inmates would do that all the
time in the jail and they just see what would float.
Seriously?
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
I had no ideas of the, you've never told me these stories before.
Oh my gosh.
What will they think of next?
Was I close?
No, actually, Corey, they learned from reading magazines that they were given.
Ah, that'll do it.
Yeah.
They were given instructions on how to make rafts out of raincoats in magazines, which
is pretty resourceful.
Okay.
I just, I can't imagine their mindset, Corey.
They're working on all this for a whole year and you know they had to have been just gleefully
putting this whole plan together because nobody's none the wiser here and they just keep going
night after night.
Everything is in motion and I mean for over a year.
Can you imagine?
Yeah.
And not only did I have to keep it from the guards, but they're going to have to keep
it from inmates too because there's going to be snitches in there and people talk so
it will eventually get around.
So they're keeping that away from everybody.
Yes, except for Alan West because eventually the FBI was called in and he spilled a lot
of tea because according to FBI.gov, the men had found old saw blades around the prison
because that's useful, of course, right?
And it kind of inspired them.
Hey, you know what?
We got some old equipment kind of laying around.
We should try to escape.
They took the motor of a vacuum cleaner to make a drill that helped them loosen the air
vents in their cells where they could hide things until they were ready to shoot it down
that shoot.
After the discovery, Alcatraz went obviously on an immediate lockdown, although police
believe the men gained at least a 10 hour lead before their escape was detected.
They were able to make their way through those vents to access unguarded hallways and corridors
behind the cells that I had mentioned.
All this was told to the FBI from Alan West.
Corey, I mentioned the three men were discovered missing the next morning.
So of course, a manhunt ensued rather quickly.
Alcatraz officials began an immediate investigation calling in the FBI and in 1963, officials
made the decision to shut down Alcatraz due to the high costs of operating this maximum
security prison.
Now it's part of the US national parks that you can visit on Alcatraz in self guided tours,
sort of like the forts that you go around to in the country.
I don't know if you've ever been fort hopping, Corey.
I've done it a couple of times.
I've not done that.
I don't think I'd visit that place.
That place seems really haunted.
Agreed.
I don't.
Yeah, I'm good on that.
Yeah, I don't think so either.
I mean, you have to take a ferry to get there.
So imagine you've got this big rock where you've got a maximum security prison and back
in the day, you'd probably have to get on a ferry to go to work every day and then get
on the ferry to come home.
So it's not just, you know, walking in and clocking in.
It's a, it takes a minute to get out there.
It's a commute.
Yeah.
There are a couple of theories as to what happened to Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers
to this day, no one has ever seen these three men and no one is even sure that that any
of them ever made it out of the bay due to those strong currents and cold temperatures.
All I can envision is the original movie where these guys finally left the island and at
the very end of the movie, they're all laughing and paddling off, but that's the last of the
movie is a mystery.
Did they make it to shore or not?
No one ever reported any property theft.
I mean, rather quickly within, I would say a very short period of time, there was an
incident where a car was stolen, but I mean, or everyday incidents, you're going to get
some kind of criminal activity in the area.
So it's unlikely that any of them would have tried to get a getaway car or fresh clothing,
anything like that.
However, the makeshift paddles washed up on shore on June 14th, along with some of the
Anglin's possessions, like a wallet.
So you know, big question, did they or didn't they make it?
The raft made from those raincoats washed ashore six days later near the Golden Gate
Bridge nearby Angel Island, along with a plastic bag containing pictures and addresses of Frank,
John and Clarence's family members.
They had a direction that they were going to go.
Obviously those family members were interviewed, but they seemed just as surprised about the
jailbreak as everybody else was.
How far did they have to paddle?
I've been to San Francisco before, and I know you can go to Fisherman's Wharf and look at
it.
If you want a closer look, you can use binoculars, but it's really not that far.
I'm really bad with distance.
I would say at least a football field.
I didn't look those measurements up, but that's a great question.
But I would say at least a football.
Oh yeah, I'm looking at it.
I mean, if you're swimming, it'd be tough.
It's a couple miles, but you can do that on a raft.
Is it a couple miles out there?
Really?
Maybe to scale.
Maybe a mile and a half.
What month was it?
Well, they started planning in December, but they worked over a year, maybe almost 18 months.
So the escape date was June 12th, 1962.
Okay.
I'm sure they wouldn't want to try to... If they planned it that intently, I can imagine
them wanting to make that escape when it's freezing cold outside.
No, I don't care where you live.
Even in Georgia, it gets cold in the winter, Tom.
All right, in 1975, there are a lot of accounts given by family members from both the Morris
and the Anglin families.
Some believe that the Morris and Anglin brothers successfully escaped and lived out their lives
in Brazil.
And apparently, Corey, there's a picture out there that was taken in 1975 by a childhood
friend that the Anglin brother family confirmed, but the FBI did not.
One of Frank Morris's cousins came forward to say that Frank had asked him to bribe the
prison guards on Alcatraz.
So there you go.
Maybe it's a possibility.
And he met Frank in a nearby park several days after the escape.
And this is all hearsay, so we just don't know.
A fifth inmate went on to say that his girlfriend had picked the men up and drove them to Mexico.
However, a local television network paid him for this interview where he had made the claim.
So obviously, we're going to take that with a grain of salt, right?
When you get paid for an interview, you're not always going to tell the truth because
you know.
Yeah, you're going to say what they want you to say because they know what gets them ratings.
Absolutely.
One of the Anglin brothers' nephews is adamant that his uncles made a successful escape specifically
because his mother, which is John and Clarence's sister, would tell him tales about his uncle's
escape from Alcatraz.
And that photo that I had mentioned, the one back in 1975, it was found in the England
Sisters photo album.
An expert who compared pictures of John and Clarence verified that although the picture
is grainy, because honestly, that was pretty common back in 1970s photos, the two men did
bear a strong resemblance of the brothers, but they could not be 100% sure it was them.
Did they drown or didn't they?
The FBI officially declared all three men dead from drowning in 1979, which would have
been 17 years after their escape.
According to New York Times, which published a story on this escape in 2002, it suggested
that it's entirely possible for a body to go missing and never resurface under the cold,
choppy and deep conditions of the San Francisco Bay.
We've talked about great white sharks feeding on seals.
You know how I feel about that.
But interestingly enough, Corey, there are also bottom dwellers like crabs and other
sea life that feed off bodies if they were drowned in that water.
And according to the articles that I read, they would punch holes in the body, which
would prevent gases from allowing the body to surface.
That's gross.
So there you go.
I mean, you know, I'm going one, just one step further than necessary, but you know,
it's all about the data.
Yeah.
So to this day, Frank, John and Clarence remain on the FBI's most wanted list, as well as
an open case with the US Marshals.
In 1989, one of John and Clarence's brothers stated that these England brothers had made
an appearance at their father's funeral, but left shortly thereafter.
Frank Morris was born on September 1st, 1926.
So today, Corey, he would probably be somewhere around 97 years old if he was still alive.
And today they would not be able to do a facial recognition from that photo that was taken
back in 1975.
Because if you were to see it, you could see that the two men were wearing sunglasses and
apparently you need pupils exposed to get a solid match, which I did not know.
I thought that was pretty cool.
I didn't either.
But it works with the depths of your face, so it looks at where your eyes sink in and
whatnot, where your cheekbones protrude and all that.
But yeah, I can definitely see them grow their facial hair out, sunglasses.
It's going to make it real tough.
Okay.
Well, that was one other thing they said too, is there was a lot of facial hair, obviously
back in the seventies.
We know the styles are much different when these guys were on Alcatraz.
It was the sixties and who did they look like at the time?
Elvis Presley, right?
With those slick back dudes, but in the seventies, you know everybody grew their hair out and
that was what was in the picture.
So that would definitely skew any ability to really see if that was really them or not.
Yeah.
And you can think about it like this.
If you get a new iPhone, you know how it has the facial recognition to open your phone?
Yes.
So initially if you have a hat and sunglasses on, it won't be able to pick you up.
It won't be able to recognize you.
But over time it'll learn, it'll learn those depths.
And eventually like now I can open my phone with hat and sunglasses on, but if I wear
certain sunglasses, then it doesn't register.
Interesting because I have been able to open my phone with my sunglasses on.
Huh.
So it's a learning machine.
Over time it picks up on that.
Yeah.
Wow.
That's why they say you're not supposed to use facial recognition.
Yep.
Interesting.
I use it just because it's convenient and they're, you know, I'm already being tracked
anyway.
So, oh well, I'll just take the convenience.
I used to be very against it, but now I'm just like, eh, whatever.
They know where I'm at anyways.
Exactly.
And I'm about 75% against it.
That's why I don't get on social media very much, but I mean, you know, the phone's another
story for sure.
All right.
According to KTLA television based out of Los Angeles, California, someone claiming
to be John Anglin had sent a letter to authorities back in 2018.
And in this letter, he asked for medical assistance in return for a lighter sentence if he were
to turn himself in.
Huh.
And he made mention that both his brother, Clarence and Frank Morris were dead.
No follow-up letters were ever received as to this person's whereabouts.
And so obviously the mystery remains today.
However, because this letter resurfaced, Corey, the U.S. Marshall's office reopened the case
and published age progression photos of the three men.
I mean, I've seen the pictures to be honest, they all look alike.
They're what?
80s, 90s, bald, wrinkled.
To me, I couldn't really see very much of a resemblance, obviously, if it was this long
since what?
60 years since they escaped this kind of a needle in the haystack.
Yeah.
I don't know how good that technology is either because they'll do it with kids too.
Like if they're stolen as babies, you know, several years later, they'll say like, this
is what they might look like.
And if they're found, it's not a hundred percent because you can't really predict how they're
going to turn out.
They can't because there has been a couple of cases that I have done on our podcast and
the age progression was done and people were found later in life through DNA or what have
you didn't look anything like the age progression.
Yeah.
It's just very unpredictable.
Well, that is the story of Frank Morris and the England brothers and their escape from
Alcatraz.
You have any other thoughts?
No, that was fun.
It was a good one.
Thanks.
I would love to know what our listeners have to say on this storyline and how about some
feedback on Corey as a cohost.
I'd love that.
Yeah.
All right.
What do you think, Corey?
What's your thoughts?
Are you enjoying this so far?
Yeah, it's fun.
It's a good time.
You still doing those teachable moments thing.
I am doing those teachable moments.
Do you want to hear one?
Of course.
Okay.
Pay attention to your surroundings and I'm sure you can attest Corey that there are several
times when we get into our comfort zone with what's going on around us.
But do we really pay attention to it?
And I'll give you an example.
Corey, have you ever taken a drive that you've probably taken a zillion times before, but
to be honest with you, you don't even know how you got to a certain point.
Yeah.
If you're driving down the road that you've kind of blanked out, does that ever happen
to you?
Yeah, you get so used to that drive that you can't even remember it happening sometimes.
Exactly.
And that is called driving hypnosis.
And a lot of that occurs honestly within, I'm told, two miles of your home because those
are the roads that you take every day.
And you're so used to it.
I mean, I've done that a zillion times, but the problem is, is that we get so used to
our environment that we don't always pay attention to the little details around us.
And the problem is, is that we simply need to pay attention.
And the reasons I say this, Corey, is because Frank Morris and the Anglin brothers worked
for over a year to plan this escape.
No one was paying attention.
Yeah, they were complacent for sure.
I don't know if you've ever questioned anybody about anything that you've been called out
for.
Like, were they, did they have to give a description of what somebody was wearing, anything like
that?
How much detail were they able to provide?
Yeah, I've been, I've been taught that before.
You're not really focused on what they look like.
You're just kind of focusing on what's going on.
So then after they leave, you're like, ah crap, are they wearing pants or shorts?
Or are they wearing red shirt, black shirt?
It happens and everyone's guilty of it.
I'm a big proponent of being aware of your surroundings.
But there's been times where I'll be sitting and watching traffic and I just start playing
on my phone and then all of a sudden someone knocks on my door or my window of my car.
Oh my gosh.
And it makes you jump.
You're like, oh, well, clearly I wasn't paying attention.
It's always just some older person asking me how to get to a location where they already
have their GPS open.
It doesn't make any sense to me, but it is what it is.
I'm happy to help.
But definitely makes you think, like, I need to be more aware.
So get rid of your distractors and pay attention to your surroundings because you never know
when you're going to need to know those fine details.
And that's it, Corey.
That's my teachable moment.
Well, that was fun.
All right.
Well, Corey, until next time, we have this little rotation going.
So I've already got my next story for you.
I'm excited.
All right.
Sounds good.
All right.
Well, we will talk to everyone soon.
Thanks for listening.
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