1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:12,300 Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 3 00:00:12,300 --> 00:00:18,560 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,200 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:25,700 Hi everyone, it's Deb. 6 00:00:25,700 --> 00:00:26,600 And I'm Shelby. 7 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:33,600 And we want to welcome you to our season two premiere of Dying to be Found True Crime Podcast. 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:36,800 You are listening to episode number 53. 9 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:40,300 And Shelby, oh my gosh, this is going to be a good one today. 10 00:00:40,300 --> 00:00:45,500 You might be old enough to remember this case that we're going to be talking about, but who knows? 11 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:47,600 I don't know what you were doing at the time. 12 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:50,600 So I don't really know how much you were paying attention. 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:52,100 We're just going to have to see. 14 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:55,000 And we'll get to our storyline in just a moment. 15 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,200 But I wanted to tell our listeners how season two is going to go this year. 16 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:04,300 You know that I love to say D2BF is a family thing, right Shelbs? 17 00:01:04,300 --> 00:01:05,300 I do. 18 00:01:05,300 --> 00:01:05,800 Yep. 19 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:13,900 So I have already mentioned that your brother Cory is coming on board, but Aunt Beth is also coming back as well. 20 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:18,900 And this season, you're going to start hearing some themes as we go along. 21 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:30,400 Since Cory is joining the podcast this season, I thought it would be really cool to talk to him about some rough and tough cases to not only get a man's perspective, 22 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,500 but he's in law enforcement as well. 23 00:01:32,500 --> 00:01:35,300 So I thought it would be really neat to hear from that angle. 24 00:01:35,300 --> 00:01:36,400 What do you think of that? 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:37,700 Oh, I so agree. 26 00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:43,500 I think he's going to have a really good perspective on the storylines. 27 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:48,900 Now Aunt Beth loves those old time cases, so that's where she comes in. 28 00:01:48,900 --> 00:01:56,900 She'll get to hear much older cases somewhere around the 1800s all the way to the 1970s or so. 29 00:01:56,900 --> 00:01:58,700 So that's kind of her specialty. 30 00:01:58,700 --> 00:01:59,900 That's exciting. 31 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:01,000 Yeah. 32 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,000 And guess what? 33 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:03,500 You get the leftovers. 34 00:02:03,500 --> 00:02:04,900 Of course I do. 35 00:02:04,900 --> 00:02:08,000 Are you okay with that? 36 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:10,000 I'm absolutely okay with that. 37 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:22,000 Actually Shelbs, you're going to get probably more of a variety here than the other two because between Aunt Beth and your brother Cory, honestly, there is so much more to cover. 38 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:24,000 So any special requests? 39 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,600 Not right now, but I'm sure I'll think of something. 40 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:28,000 Okay. 41 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:32,400 Well, this is a good time to tell our listeners to send in your requests. 42 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:38,700 Tell us what you want to hear and we will drop our storylines down to cover what you want to hear. 43 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:52,200 And if you are a true crime podcaster or work in the true crime industry, I would love to personally interview you on my D2BF Dash series that we now have out every Wednesday. 44 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:58,700 And trust me, the more interviews we have, the less you're going to have to listen to me tell my solo stories. 45 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:03,800 And to our listeners, go ahead and tell us what you think by giving us a five-star review. 46 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,400 And I don't really ask too much from you, but if you like what you hear, consider buying us a coffee. 47 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:15,000 All of our links can be found in our show notes, so be sure to check those out. 48 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:21,200 Now Shelbs, you had told me a couple of weeks ago that you wanted to take a mother-daughter trip overseas with me. 49 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:22,400 What were you thinking? 50 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:30,200 I was hoping to do maybe Europe until I saw the ticket prices. 51 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,000 Yeah, they are pretty pricey. 52 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,800 Would you consider going to Italy? 53 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:36,500 Absolutely. 54 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:40,100 I know Cory's been there before, so I would definitely go there. 55 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:43,200 I'm excited because I really think we need to follow through with that. 56 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,300 Absolutely. 57 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:46,100 We've got to. 58 00:03:46,100 --> 00:03:47,500 Quit talking about it and do it. 59 00:03:47,500 --> 00:03:50,500 But I am going to take you on a trip to Italy. 60 00:03:50,500 --> 00:03:51,900 Oh, I'm excited. 61 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:56,500 Well, in 2007, so think about how old you were in 2007. 62 00:03:56,500 --> 00:04:04,400 You may know this case 20 year old Amanda Knox was a foreign exchange student at the University of Washington 63 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:14,800 who was studying abroad in Perugia, Italy, which is somewhere around 365 kilometers or 226 miles from Milan. 64 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:19,400 And of course, I'm doing all this mathematical stuff, at least looking it up. 65 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:20,900 I'm not calculating anything. 66 00:04:20,900 --> 00:04:28,400 That's only a three hour drive time from Milan and Amanda's dream was to become an interpreter. 67 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:35,200 But her studies were interrupted, Shelby, when she was arrested for the murder of her roommate, 68 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,000 21 year old Meredith Kircher from Surrey, England. 69 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:40,100 Oh, no. 70 00:04:40,100 --> 00:04:44,600 I wanted to take a moment to just give you a little brief background on Meredith. 71 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,300 I wasn't able to find too much on her. 72 00:04:47,300 --> 00:04:51,100 But Shelby, you know, I like to give victims names here. 73 00:04:51,100 --> 00:05:02,100 So I wanted to just kind of mention that Meredith Susanna Kara Kircher was born and raised in South London, UK on December 28th, 1985. 74 00:05:02,100 --> 00:05:04,200 She was the youngest of four children. 75 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:15,700 And as she grew into a young woman, she chose to study European politics and Italian at the University of Leeds in West Yorkshire, England. 76 00:05:15,700 --> 00:05:25,600 Meredith chose Italy as foreign exchange options because she felt that it would be safer than any other destination that she had researched. 77 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:32,700 When she began studying abroad in 2007, Meredith chose the University of Perugia, 78 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:40,600 where she enrolled as a political theory, modern history and history of cinema students. 79 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:52,400 Only three months after arriving in Perugia, Meredith was discovered sexually assaulted and stabbed to death in the flat where she shared with three other roommates. 80 00:05:52,400 --> 00:06:05,400 On September 20th, 2007, Amanda Knox also arrived in Italy to study abroad at the University of Perugia and moved into the same cottage that Meredith was in. 81 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:12,400 She was one of the four roommates in total living in the upstairs flat of a two-story cottage. 82 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,300 Another four boys lived below on the ground floor. 83 00:06:16,300 --> 00:06:22,800 Now, Shelby, I was not able to find anything where these two groups mingled amongst each other. 84 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,800 So I don't really know their full relationships if they actually even talk to each other. 85 00:06:27,800 --> 00:06:29,600 Of course, it was early on. 86 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:36,400 Everybody had just arrived to begin their school year, so they may not have even known their neighbors just yet. 87 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,900 That's true. I'm sure in passing, they at least said hello to each other. 88 00:06:40,900 --> 00:06:46,700 Yeah. On November 1st, 2007, Meredith found herself home alone. 89 00:06:46,700 --> 00:06:56,200 All the boys living downstairs left for a long weekend away and her roommates were off spending the night with either boyfriends or family at the time. 90 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,900 So interesting. They just arrived in Italy and it's kind of cool that they've already found new relationships and stuff. 91 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:05,400 But at that age, it's not uncommon. 92 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:14,400 Amanda and her new boyfriend, Raphael, a computer science major whom she had just begun dating a week earlier, 93 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:22,700 spent the day together the day before Meredith's murder, then returned back to Amanda's flat the next morning. 94 00:07:22,700 --> 00:07:29,200 Ultimately, Shelbs, the couple's whereabouts were accounted for, or at least everything that I found, 95 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:36,200 their whereabouts were accounted for on the night of Meredith's murder based on computer activity. 96 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:49,800 According to records later found in Raphael's computer, he and Amanda were at his apartment watching a movie between the hours of 6.26 p.m. and 9.10 p.m. 97 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,100 And this was before Amanda went off to work at 10 p.m. 98 00:07:53,100 --> 00:08:01,600 So really Shelbs, everything that I found, they had an alibi for the night that Meredith was murdered at least from what I could gather. 99 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,400 Wow, that's so crazy. 100 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:04,900 Yeah, for sure. 101 00:08:04,900 --> 00:08:11,700 Now, the next morning when arriving back at the house that Amanda shared with her roommates, 102 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:22,200 Amanda and Raphael found the door to the cottage open along with small blood stains in the sink and on the bath mat inside the bathroom. 103 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:26,100 Oh, you know, I don't know what I would do in that situation. 104 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:27,900 Of course, you're going to run up on something odd. 105 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:31,800 Did somebody cut themselves shaving their legs? 106 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,000 You know, just so many different things would be running through my mind. 107 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:43,700 But after inspecting the apartment, Amanda and Raphael found a broken window in Meredith's bedroom door locked. 108 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:44,900 That's not good. 109 00:08:44,900 --> 00:08:49,300 No, I suppose that, you know, even if they were just there a couple weeks together, 110 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:53,000 they probably knew each other's habits or at least were getting to know those, right? 111 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:53,800 Oh, for sure. 112 00:08:53,800 --> 00:09:02,800 Raphael attempted multiple times on his own to access Meredith's bedroom, but he was not able to open that door. 113 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,400 So Amanda and he ended up calling the police. 114 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:14,900 Now, Shelbs, just before we recorded, I actually heard a documentary with the emergency call to the police that Raphael had made. 115 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:25,300 He was really good with giving details on what he and Amanda walked into when they arrived at that cottage on November 2nd, 2007. 116 00:09:25,300 --> 00:09:26,000 Oh, wow. 117 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:27,500 Are you going to put that in the show notes? 118 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:28,900 I'm interested to hear. 119 00:09:28,900 --> 00:09:31,800 Yeah, I found it on YouTube and it was a documentary. 120 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:33,700 And I just listened to the first couple minutes. 121 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:39,700 But yeah, I'll certainly put that in the show notes because I love to follow up and just watch these documentaries. 122 00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:43,900 You always find missing parts to whatever stories we're talking about. 123 00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:45,100 I do too. 124 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:45,900 Yeah. 125 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:53,400 When police arrived, they were able to access Meredith's bedroom where they had discovered her underneath a bedspread. 126 00:09:53,400 --> 00:10:01,400 Unfortunately, Shelby, she was deceased and laying on her bedroom floor after suffering extensive bruising 127 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,000 and being stabbed to death. 128 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,300 Poor thing. 129 00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:05,700 I have goosebumps. 130 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:06,900 I know. 131 00:10:06,900 --> 00:10:14,100 After assessing Meredith's condition, the medical examiner reported that she had been sexually assaulted. 132 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:19,000 And Shelby, she received 47 stab wounds. 133 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:20,900 Oh, this is personal. 134 00:10:20,900 --> 00:10:22,700 What a terrible way to die. 135 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:23,500 Yeah. 136 00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:33,400 They also reached the conclusion that more than one individual was responsible for Meredith's death due to the lack of defensive wounds. 137 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,400 I didn't know that medical examiners could come to that kind of conclusion. 138 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,400 I thought that would be detective's work. 139 00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:40,600 No, I didn't either. 140 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:41,100 Yeah. 141 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:50,100 Well, naturally, Amanda Knox and Raphael immediately became primary suspects in Meredith's death. 142 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:57,000 After all, Shelby, they were the ones to find Meredith and at least the apartment in disarray. 143 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:04,000 So, of course, they're going to look at the very first people that walk into the crime scene, regardless of who they are. 144 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:05,700 Wrong place, wrong time. 145 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:07,100 Yes, absolutely. 146 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:08,700 That's a great way to put that for sure. 147 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:09,400 Yeah. 148 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:14,700 Meredith's wallet, keys, and cell phones were missing from her possessions. 149 00:11:14,700 --> 00:11:18,000 So, Shelby, could this have been a robbery gone wrong? 150 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,600 I mean, that's very possible. 151 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:28,800 Bloody fingerprints were found on Meredith's walls and DNA was collected from her clothes and her body. 152 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:36,400 Of course, whoever did this covered Meredith's body with that bed comforter before leaving the crime scene. 153 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:38,400 And like you said, it was personal. 154 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:48,800 There was just too many little things in that room shelves with the fact that nobody does that unless they had a personal interaction or relationship, right? 155 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:50,000 Yeah, absolutely. 156 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:55,800 I mean, to me, that shows that there was some kind of emotional attachment. 157 00:11:55,800 --> 00:12:01,700 If they're going to cover up the body, had there not been, I mean, they just would have left her as is. 158 00:12:01,700 --> 00:12:10,400 Mm-hmm. Yep. Bloody shoe prints were also found throughout the flat, including inside the kitchen hallway, 159 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:15,600 Meredith's bedroom, plus on a pillow and under her body. 160 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,100 So, they didn't really do very much to clean things up. 161 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:20,100 No, they didn't. 162 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:24,600 I'm curious to know how are they going to examine the footprints? 163 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:29,700 Is it going to be the size of, I'm sorry, the size of Amanda's or Rafael's? 164 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:33,000 How are they going to come to the conclusion that they're the suspects? 165 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,100 Yeah, absolutely. 166 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:35,700 And I did see some pictures. 167 00:12:35,700 --> 00:12:39,700 I mean, it's not really a full-fledged footprint. 168 00:12:39,700 --> 00:12:44,500 You can't see the entire outline of the entire shoe. 169 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:46,400 It's just very vague. 170 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,200 So, it's hard to explain. 171 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,000 You'd have to go look those pictures up. 172 00:12:50,000 --> 00:13:00,200 Well, during initial police investigations, authorities found Amanda's social media account under the name Foxy Knoxy 173 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:05,700 and immediately pinned Meredith's murder on Amanda and Rafael. 174 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:06,500 Wow. 175 00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:09,300 I know, just because of her social media. 176 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:12,800 And all I can keep going back to Shelby is how old is she? 177 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,300 I mean, she's pretty young. 178 00:13:14,300 --> 00:13:16,600 Yeah, she was 20 years old. 179 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,200 So, she was young, very young. 180 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,800 What are you doing at that age? 181 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,100 You are 100% socializing. 182 00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:24,100 Absolutely. 183 00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:24,500 Yep. 184 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:30,800 Yeah, and not to mention, I would say that those social media platforms were still relatively new 185 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:37,200 because even though we really reached the era of technology around the turn of the millennium, 186 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,200 I mean, Shelby, the social medias didn't really come until later. 187 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:46,100 So, I want to say that social media, Facebook, I don't even know if Instagram was out there. 188 00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:47,200 I don't think so. 189 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:48,500 Could have been MySpace. 190 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:54,900 I mean, back in those days, you can decorate the background and add a song when people go to your page. 191 00:13:54,900 --> 00:13:56,100 I mean, right? 192 00:13:56,100 --> 00:13:57,700 Why did that ever go away? 193 00:13:57,700 --> 00:13:58,700 Exactly. 194 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,500 Tom was everybody's friend. 195 00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:03,800 That is so right. 196 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:06,200 I wonder how Tom's doing these days. 197 00:14:07,900 --> 00:14:13,800 Several statements from the prosecutors said that Amanda and her boyfriend of just one week 198 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:19,000 were acting very bizarre for several days after Meredith's murder. 199 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:27,500 Prosecutors tried to create a theory around satanic rituals or possibly a sex encounter gone wrong. 200 00:14:27,500 --> 00:14:30,100 That just sounds crazy. 201 00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:32,500 Well, Shelby too, it's also a different country. 202 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:34,300 So, yeah, that's true. 203 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:38,700 I don't follow different countries and what they put in the news, but you know, 204 00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,200 I guess we have to kind of keep that in mind. 205 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:48,100 Investigators also made the observation that the couple was acting rather peculiar, 206 00:14:48,100 --> 00:14:49,800 but not in a good way. 207 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:54,500 Police said Amanda and Raphael were doing cartwheels at the police station. 208 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:56,300 Okay, cartwheels. 209 00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:58,000 Who would be doing cartwheels? 210 00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,300 That sounds really odd. 211 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:01,000 It does. 212 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:05,200 Well, what they were actually doing, Shelby, is they were doing yoga poses. 213 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:11,900 Understandable, they were under a lot of stress and distress from what they had just witnessed. 214 00:15:11,900 --> 00:15:20,100 So if they know to do yoga, that's supposed to actually really, really be helpful as far as calming your mind. 215 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:24,700 But I'm pretty sure there's a big difference between cartwheels and yoga. 216 00:15:24,700 --> 00:15:27,000 Oh, there's got to be. 217 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:35,700 Authorities also stated that Amanda and Raphael went shopping for lingerie while they were under investigation. 218 00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:39,600 And I do remember those reports being on the news shelves. 219 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,800 Do you find that behavior to be odd in any way? 220 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,000 I mean, maybe that was their thing. 221 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,600 They're a couple. 222 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400 I don't necessarily find it very odd. 223 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,700 I mean, they still have to live their life. 224 00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:53,200 I don't know. 225 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:58,900 I don't know what I think about that yet, but I don't think it's necessarily ridiculously odd. 226 00:15:58,900 --> 00:15:59,400 Yeah. 227 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:06,100 And then again, too, is it necessarily ridiculously odd to buy lingerie when you're in your 20s? 228 00:16:06,100 --> 00:16:08,300 I mean, what kind of lingerie do you buy? 229 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:08,900 Right. 230 00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,000 Yeah, exactly. 231 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:16,900 But let me just tell you, though, Amanda herself did say indeed she did go shopping for underwear. 232 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:20,200 But this was out of necessity, Shelby. 233 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:20,900 Think about it. 234 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:25,800 The police had taped off her house, roped it off with a crime scene. 235 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:32,100 She was no longer able to go inside her house to get any of her personal belongings. 236 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,500 So she was wearing the clothes on her back. 237 00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:37,600 She had no clean clothes, no clean underwear. 238 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,100 So of course, she had to go buy new ones. 239 00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:41,000 Absolutely. 240 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:46,600 And as you know, I am not reading ahead, so did not realize she was not able to go home. 241 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:49,900 So yeah, no, that is not odd at all. 242 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:50,700 Agreed. 243 00:16:50,700 --> 00:16:56,300 Amanda was even scrutinized for going to court wearing a t-shirt that said, quote, 244 00:16:56,300 --> 00:17:00,600 all you need is love, unquote, which referenced the Beatles. 245 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,700 That happened to be Amanda's favorite band at the time. 246 00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:09,600 And I'm not sure how early into these court appearances that she was dressed like that. 247 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:13,600 I'm not going to judge because again, a couple things. 248 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,100 How much clothing does a 20-year-old have? 249 00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:20,000 Was she able to access anything from her cottage? 250 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:21,300 I don't think so. 251 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:26,700 But also was the Italian counsel, did they tell her what to wear? 252 00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:28,300 She probably had no idea. 253 00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:29,600 She's 20 years old. 254 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,700 I'm sure she's very naive. 255 00:17:31,700 --> 00:17:38,200 And you know, not to say that in a negative light, but you don't know a whole lot at that age. 256 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:39,500 No, not at all. 257 00:17:39,500 --> 00:17:46,700 So of course, news sources looked for anything to report and took on the point of view that 258 00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:54,300 Amanda was an unsophisticated American who was loud, ignorant to Italian culture and 259 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:55,900 was a sexual deviant. 260 00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:58,000 And that's what they reported in the news. 261 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:05,900 However, in actuality, friends would describe Amanda as naive, goofy, and somewhat spirited. 262 00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:11,900 So basically Shelbs, she was a happy-go-lucky girl and was enjoying her life, which I completely 263 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:18,400 get because I probably was described very similar to that when I was her age. 264 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,000 I don't know of any 20-year-old girl that's not, you know what I mean? 265 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:23,000 I do. 266 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:24,000 I do. 267 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:25,000 I mean, she's 20 years old. 268 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,000 She's in Italy. 269 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:31,700 I mean, that's pretty exciting for her to be so young in another country. 270 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:32,700 Uh-huh. 271 00:18:32,700 --> 00:18:38,000 Well, investigators continue to tell news outlets that Amanda could not keep her story 272 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:44,940 straight and gave multiple accounts as to her whereabouts when Meredith was found. 273 00:18:44,940 --> 00:18:50,500 Investigators said that Amanda's disposition was simply too carefree considering that her 274 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:52,500 roommate had just been murdered. 275 00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:58,840 Remember now, she was traumatized by finding Meredith and then enduring police interrogations 276 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:02,640 and public scrutiny in a foreign country. 277 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,000 She has a lot stacking up here. 278 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:10,840 There's no handbook Shelbs for how somebody is going to react to any of these combinations 279 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:11,840 of trauma. 280 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,460 I think you can agree we all react differently. 281 00:19:14,460 --> 00:19:16,300 Oh yes, I agree. 282 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:24,220 Well, Amanda endured 10 hours of interrogation without an interpreter that lasted well into 283 00:19:24,220 --> 00:19:28,300 late night hours for five full days in a row. 284 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:31,480 Shelby, she did not have a lawyer present. 285 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:35,100 I do have to say that's a mistake on her end. 286 00:19:35,100 --> 00:19:36,100 Yeah. 287 00:19:36,100 --> 00:19:41,480 I don't even know how much Italian she knew at the time or was she, I don't know. 288 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,860 I don't know the laws. 289 00:19:42,860 --> 00:19:48,860 So yeah, I would at least have asked who knows if they, you know, they had to have had some 290 00:19:48,860 --> 00:19:51,600 kind of interpreter that could have helped her out. 291 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:56,080 So I don't really know how much she could have helped herself here, but I definitely 292 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:57,080 would have asked. 293 00:19:57,080 --> 00:19:58,080 Mm-hmm. 294 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,400 Yeah, again, we're going to kind of chalk that up to her negativity. 295 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:08,040 Amanda states that she was brutally treated during police questioning and at the time 296 00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:14,560 there were 12 investigators who were relentless on her in their interrogation tactics. 297 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,640 That's a lot of people. 298 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:17,640 Okay. 299 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:22,520 So for five days she endured these interrogations. 300 00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:25,280 The investigators got to go home and go to sleep. 301 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,400 So they probably had a pretty decent rotation on who was questioning her. 302 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:33,200 I mean, their day was probably an eight hour day. 303 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,640 Hers was a 24 seven day. 304 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:37,640 Wow. 305 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,920 Amanda recalls being hit on the back of the head during questioning. 306 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:48,040 Those 12 investigators also continued to threaten her with a very long prison sentence and they 307 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:53,440 let her know that she will never have the luxury of seeing her family ever again. 308 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:54,440 That's so awful. 309 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:55,440 It is. 310 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,480 And I know you've seen that show locked up abroad. 311 00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:59,880 I have not actually. 312 00:20:59,880 --> 00:21:01,840 I don't even think I've heard of that. 313 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:02,840 Really? 314 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:03,840 Are you serious? 315 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:04,840 Yeah. 316 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:05,840 Oh gosh. 317 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,360 You need to go look that one up locked up abroad. 318 00:21:07,360 --> 00:21:08,360 Yeah. 319 00:21:08,360 --> 00:21:12,960 You know, because laws are so different and tactics are so different, but people find 320 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:17,520 themselves in this situation, Shelby, a lot more than you think. 321 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:18,520 Wow. 322 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:19,520 That's very interesting. 323 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:20,520 I'll have to go. 324 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:21,520 Is that on Netflix? 325 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,240 I don't know if it still is cause it's an older show and you might find it on YouTube. 326 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:26,240 You might though. 327 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:27,240 Who knows? 328 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Just look around for it. 329 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:29,240 You'll find it. 330 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:30,240 Okay. 331 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,240 I'm going to look it up. 332 00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:35,640 After everything she had been through in such a short period of time, Amanda felt that looking 333 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:41,520 back, she simply blocked out a lot of what she had witnessed and was unable to answer 334 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:48,320 the interrogators questions the way that they wanted her to, especially in a foreign language. 335 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:55,040 Except she was after five days, Shelbs able to add one small detail and this is probably 336 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,080 the one they were looking for. 337 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:02,880 Amanda implicated her own boss where she was working to say that he was the one who had 338 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,120 committed the crime when she was in another room. 339 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,120 What? 340 00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,360 So she's placing herself there. 341 00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:10,360 She is. 342 00:22:10,360 --> 00:22:13,120 And she's also identifying the person who did this. 343 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:19,640 Now I know that we've done enough of these episodes and probably listened to enough episodes 344 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:27,200 to say if you have been interrogated for very long hours, five days straight, you know, 345 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,240 at some point you're going to reach a breaking point. 346 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,020 Oh yeah, absolutely. 347 00:22:31,020 --> 00:22:36,160 So she was probably ready to say anything just to get the heck out of there. 348 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:43,840 Well, her boss was able to prove a solid alibi, so he was let off the hook rather quickly. 349 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:49,080 And shortly after Amanda made that statement, she was forced to sign a confession that was 350 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,120 written completely in Italian. 351 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:56,400 And remember, I don't know how much Italian she knew at this point, how much she had already 352 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:57,400 studied it. 353 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,480 So I don't even know if she knew what she was signing. 354 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,180 Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. 355 00:23:03,180 --> 00:23:08,800 Inside that confession, it stated that she was at the house at the time of Meredith's 356 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:14,920 murder, which she had just confessed because she said she was there when her boss was there. 357 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:20,440 The confession also stated that Amanda was in another room when her boyfriend of just 358 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,240 10 days went into the other room to murder her roommate. 359 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,360 So that's what she signed, Shelbs. 360 00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:28,840 That's so unfortunate. 361 00:23:28,840 --> 00:23:35,040 Well, I think that Amanda kind of came to her senses, she recanted her confession just 362 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:36,800 a couple hours later. 363 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:41,360 But by then, you know, the police had what they wanted and it was too late. 364 00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,760 Yeah, I mean, she signed it. 365 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:49,960 Police immediately called a press conference where they announced that Amanda and Raphael 366 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,080 had killed Meredith after a sex game gone wrong. 367 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,560 So they came up with their own story here. 368 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:57,560 Or did they? 369 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:58,880 That's what it sounds like. 370 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:06,160 By now the paparazzi was having a field day with this case and news of Amanda's involvement 371 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,920 was all over the news media. 372 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:12,920 So that's where I'm going to come back to you, Shelby, and ask you, do you even remember 373 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,680 this case being on the news? 374 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,360 I actually do not. 375 00:24:16,360 --> 00:24:17,360 Okay. 376 00:24:17,360 --> 00:24:24,440 The paparazzi absolutely loved Amanda's Foxy Knoxy label and ran with that headline. 377 00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:29,280 So remember, that's the social media label that she had given herself and they ran with 378 00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,280 it. 379 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,880 But I do want to kind of mention here too, that in Italy, Shelby, they don't sequester 380 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,320 juries. 381 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:40,840 They saw exactly what you and I see in the news. 382 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:46,400 Plus it's not uncommon for police and lawyers to talk to the press there. 383 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,080 There are not as many restrictions on that. 384 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,360 So again, they are getting everything that is on the news. 385 00:24:52,360 --> 00:24:57,920 Anybody involved with that case, lawyers, judges, juries, everybody sees what you and 386 00:24:57,920 --> 00:24:59,300 I see. 387 00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:05,200 And investigators also found Amanda's journal where they discovered that she had a healthy 388 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,360 dating life with multiple boyfriends. 389 00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:09,480 What do you think of that? 390 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,760 I mean, she's 20. 391 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:14,640 Yeah, that's what I keep going back to. 392 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,880 She's 20 years old living her life. 393 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,040 That's exactly what I'm going back to. 394 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:20,040 That's right. 395 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:27,880 On January 16th, 2009, Amanda and her boyfriend, Raphael, both stood trial for Meredith's death. 396 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,780 They were both found guilty of her murder. 397 00:25:30,780 --> 00:25:35,660 One of the prosecutor's arguments was that only a woman would cover the victim's body 398 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:37,080 with a sheet. 399 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,440 And remember, that's how I mentioned that Meredith had been found. 400 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Amanda was sentenced to 26 years in an Italian prison and Raphael was sentenced to 25. 401 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:55,080 They were both ordered to pay over $7 million in restitution to Meredith's family. 402 00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,380 That is a ton of money. 403 00:25:57,380 --> 00:26:02,120 And I'm curious, maybe you just didn't bring it up, but you don't have to put this in there. 404 00:26:02,120 --> 00:26:05,320 But I'm curious to know about Raphael's confession. 405 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:10,680 No, I'm actually glad that you did bring that up because when I was looking up this case, 406 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,640 I knew I would be speaking about Amanda Knox. 407 00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:19,500 And to be honest with you, going back as far as everything being in the news during this 408 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:23,520 time, Raphael was not brought up very much at all. 409 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,720 And I did not find a ton of articles on him. 410 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:27,720 Wow. 411 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,840 Yeah, I'm going to just assume for the purpose of this conversation that whatever punishments 412 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:38,040 that Amanda was given, Raphael was also given the same. 413 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:39,040 Wow. 414 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:44,820 And I did see whatever I did see in the articles that I read, there was a lot of similarities 415 00:26:44,820 --> 00:26:47,760 as far as whatever she got, he got. 416 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,360 And that's what I'm going to assume. 417 00:26:49,360 --> 00:26:50,880 And I will tell you this as well. 418 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,880 They did stand trial together. 419 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:53,880 Wow. 420 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,960 So I'm just going to briefly mention while Amanda was behind bars, she was able to teach 421 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:02,900 herself Italian by reading Harry Potter books. 422 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:04,800 Did you actually read those books, Shelbs? 423 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:08,800 I have never read those books, but I do love the movies. 424 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,240 I've never read the books either. 425 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,960 And I will tell you, I had a German intern living with me several years ago and she was 426 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,160 so into Harry Potter. 427 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,960 And it reminded me too that she had learned English by watching an American Disney show, 428 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,320 I think she had told me. 429 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:26,600 So it's kind of interesting. 430 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:32,160 You can actually pick up on different languages just by picking up a book or watching TV shows 431 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,160 in another language because you pick up on body language and things like that. 432 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:37,880 So yeah, that's cool. 433 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:38,880 Yeah. 434 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,140 So that reminded me of when I found this that Amanda had taught herself Italian by reading 435 00:27:43,140 --> 00:27:44,140 Harry Potter. 436 00:27:44,140 --> 00:27:46,880 I thought that was kind of neat and resourceful actually. 437 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,040 That is really neat. 438 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,840 I mean, honestly, what else does she have to do? 439 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:52,840 So true. 440 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:53,840 Yeah. 441 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:59,520 Well, people who believed that Amanda was innocent donated airline miles to her family 442 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:04,320 so that they could travel back and forth to Italy to visit Amanda in prison. 443 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:05,320 Oh, yeah. 444 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:12,800 Now I'm going to move on, believe it or not, Shelby, Amanda and Raphael were actually acquitted 445 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:21,760 years later because on July 25th of 2011, after four years of being behind bars, Amanda 446 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:27,680 was acquitted for Meredith's murder when an eight member jury could not uphold a guilty 447 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,960 verdict after questions were raised on how DNA was collected from the crime scene. 448 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:40,480 Plus the fact that local police had swept the crime scene as opposed to murder scene investigators. 449 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,640 Oh, you know, you've got two different departments looking at the crime scene. 450 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:46,640 Right. 451 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:52,680 And the judge overseeing this case agreed and ruled in Amanda's favor under a top human 452 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:58,920 rights law, which also included questions on Amanda's imprisonment and time spent behind 453 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,060 bars. 454 00:29:00,060 --> 00:29:10,120 So by October 3rd, 2011, Amanda was released after over 1428 days behind bars. 455 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,400 That is so long. 456 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,880 It is so long, especially knowing. 457 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,720 I mean, I didn't think she did it from the beginning. 458 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:23,480 And interestingly enough, I'm glad that they kept this case alive long enough to keep looking 459 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:24,840 into the facts. 460 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,440 So they didn't really just throw her behind bars and leave her there. 461 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:33,200 They were still actively looking into this case, which is a good thing, right? 462 00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:34,200 It is. 463 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:39,080 But if they weren't a hundred percent sure that she did it, you know, I mean, obviously 464 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:41,680 that shows if they continue to look into it. 465 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:43,080 Oh yeah, for sure. 466 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:44,080 Absolutely. 467 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,840 I guess they were just trying to find a quick ending or a quick close the case quickly. 468 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:49,840 Exactly. 469 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,720 It doesn't sound like they were doing their job correctly. 470 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:53,720 True. 471 00:29:53,720 --> 00:30:01,720 Well, the ruling addressed several factors of Amanda's arrest, including number one, 472 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:07,280 Amanda did not receive adequate legal counsel during her initial interrogation because we 473 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,160 both know she didn't have a lawyer with her. 474 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:17,280 And number two, the DNA found at the scene was used to convict her, but was later found 475 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600 to be very, very flawed. 476 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:25,760 Amanda's defense lawyers questioned the mishandling of the murder weapon, which was a knife found 477 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,880 at the scene that held trace DNA from Amanda Knox. 478 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,020 And I don't know if you know what a trace DNA is, Shelby. 479 00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:40,280 It's really something that may just, I mean, if she was, if she had cutlery in the kitchen 480 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:45,880 that she had been using or, you know, all she had to do was walk by it and she could 481 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,160 have had something fall on there to get some kind of trace DNA. 482 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:52,800 Well, she lived there. 483 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:53,800 She did. 484 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:54,800 She did. 485 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,400 Did they not expect to find any of her DNA in the house where she lived? 486 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:00,400 Exactly. 487 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,720 Because it could have been one of those knives that she was using to cook. 488 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,720 Right. 489 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,920 And the defense also argued that the knife in question was not bagged and tagged correctly. 490 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:15,120 So there was room for error and contamination here. 491 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,720 And they had a good argument. 492 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,840 Yeah, they sure did. 493 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,720 Do you remember me saying that Raphael attempted to open Meredith's door after entering that 494 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:24,720 apartment? 495 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,720 Yes, I do. 496 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:32,560 Well, the defense argued that his DNA could have easily transferred to the crime scene 497 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,640 as well, which further contaminated the bedroom where Meredith was found. 498 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:39,560 So same circumstances. 499 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,240 You know, you've got one person who does live there, the other person who is there probably 500 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:49,840 pretty frequently at least in that last 10 days where they had just started dating. 501 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,680 So of course he's going to have something transfer into the scene. 502 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:54,680 Right. 503 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:55,680 Yeah, absolutely. 504 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:03,020 Ultimately, Amanda and Raphael were released after four years behind bars and Amanda at 505 00:32:03,020 --> 00:32:09,280 least was awarded $21,000 in damage related to her arrest. 506 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,080 Italy does not have a double jeopardy law. 507 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,240 You and I have talked about that in the past, but we have that here in the United States. 508 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:21,000 So even if somebody is released, they can be tried again later. 509 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,920 And in this case, Shelby, Amanda was tried a second time. 510 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,080 Wow. 511 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:33,800 After she was released and moved back to the United States, Amanda's acquittal was overturned. 512 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:42,120 She was retried in absentee on March 26th of 2013 and was once again found guilty for 513 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,320 a second time on January 30th, 2014. 514 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:48,480 So two convictions here. 515 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:49,480 What? 516 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:50,480 Yep. 517 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:51,480 Wow. 518 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:52,480 That's crazy. 519 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:53,480 Yeah. 520 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:58,440 And I didn't really find a ton of information as to why they once again decided to try her. 521 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,080 I didn't see any of that. 522 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:07,160 But during the second trial, Shelby, Amanda was sentenced to 28 and a half years behind 523 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:12,080 bars while Raphael received a 25 year sentence. 524 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,960 But I also wanted to kind of throw out there as well. 525 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,080 Amanda got a little bit extra time on her sentence over Raphael. 526 00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:21,080 And do you know why? 527 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,080 I don't. 528 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,080 I was wondering. 529 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:24,080 Yeah. 530 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:30,400 Because of the accusation that she had against her boss, where she had pinpointed him as 531 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:31,680 being on the scene. 532 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:32,680 Yep. 533 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,040 So she got extra time for that. 534 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,040 Isn't that something? 535 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,040 Right. 536 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,960 I honestly, I wonder what her thought process was for that. 537 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:46,100 And I also wonder if the four years that she already served counts, like still goes towards 538 00:33:46,100 --> 00:33:48,120 that 28 and a half. 539 00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:49,120 Yeah. 540 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,120 Well, guess what? 541 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,320 This is the happy ending part, to be honest with you. 542 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:53,800 This part is good news. 543 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:55,040 Oh, good. 544 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,040 Yeah. 545 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,600 So of course, Amanda was living in fear. 546 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:04,080 She was back in the States, remember, so she wasn't even present for that second trial. 547 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,980 They had not extradited her. 548 00:34:05,980 --> 00:34:10,120 So she's in the United States, but she's living in fear of extradition. 549 00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:16,120 And that never happened, Shelby, because for a second time, she was acquitted for Meredith's 550 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,460 murder in 2015. 551 00:34:18,460 --> 00:34:20,240 She was acquitted again. 552 00:34:20,240 --> 00:34:24,560 What is going on with Italian law enforcement? 553 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,160 Why are they putting her through this? 554 00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:27,160 I don't know. 555 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,160 That's a good question. 556 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,860 Let's talk about who's really guilty of this crime here. 557 00:34:31,860 --> 00:34:40,400 We don't know for sure, but at the time, 20 year old Rudy Gudei, an Ivory Coast West Africa 558 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,000 native, he was also arrested at the same time for Meredith's murder. 559 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,840 I mean, that part wasn't in the news a whole lot. 560 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:51,280 They arrested three people here, not just one or two. 561 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:52,280 Wow. 562 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:58,480 Gudei was a friend of one of those four men that lived down below the girls. 563 00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:04,520 And he did not hide the fact that he and Meredith had an intimate relationship and had sex with 564 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,640 her on the night her body was found. 565 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,360 I mean, he fessed up to everything. 566 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:10,420 He said he knew her. 567 00:35:10,420 --> 00:35:13,760 He said he had a relationship with her and all that jazz. 568 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,800 I'm speechless, honestly. 569 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:22,560 You have someone who, like you said, put themself there, knew her. 570 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,120 Raphael and Amanda had a supposed alibi. 571 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:30,640 They were at Raphael's house watching a movie. 572 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,920 I don't understand why they were even considered suspects. 573 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:42,200 I really think it goes back to how they were perceived as far as their behavior. 574 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,200 I don't know. 575 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,760 I mean, psychologically, I mean, were they acting sketchy? 576 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,000 I don't know. 577 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:49,000 They were young. 578 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:50,000 They were naive. 579 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:51,520 They had just met each other. 580 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,360 They're dealing with a lot. 581 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,160 So I have no idea how to answer that. 582 00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:02,480 But I will say that Gudei was a low profile burglar and drug dealer in the area. 583 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:08,480 And it was his DNA, Shelby, that matched the DNA at the crime scene. 584 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,480 What? 585 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:10,480 Oh my gosh. 586 00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,920 This just gets better and better. 587 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:13,920 I know, right? 588 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,080 I just want to throw in there. 589 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:22,880 She deserved a heck of a lot more than $21,000 in restitution or whatever it is you want 590 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:23,880 to call it. 591 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:24,880 Absolutely. 592 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,840 And wait till I tell you this next part. 593 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:27,840 Oh, great. 594 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:35,040 Gudei was captured on CCTV at 7.51 PM the night that Meredith was murdered. 595 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:41,600 He was seen breaking into her two story bedroom window, the one that Raphael reported was 596 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:42,600 broken. 597 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:49,200 And at 9.01 PM, Meredith had arrived home and settled into her bedroom very soon afterwards 598 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:50,440 for the night. 599 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:54,280 It was speculated that as soon as Meredith went to bed, she was attacked. 600 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,640 So he was already in the house waiting for her. 601 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:01,440 I have a feeling though, he was probably caught in the act. 602 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,680 So he was hiding somewhere because he didn't expect anybody to be home. 603 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,960 Most of the girls were off with family, boyfriends, the boys were out of town. 604 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,460 Yeah, that makes sense. 605 00:37:11,460 --> 00:37:16,000 And he knew the boyfriends were out of town because he was friends with those guys downstairs. 606 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,280 Yeah, absolutely. 607 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:20,200 I have another question. 608 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:21,200 Absolutely. 609 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:30,640 If Gudei was captured on CCTV, wouldn't they be able to see when Amanda left the home and 610 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,960 then what time she returned home? 611 00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,960 Oh my gosh. 612 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:35,960 Absolutely. 613 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,320 See, that's why I love having a co-host. 614 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:42,640 You come up with things that I don't think about while I'm doing this research. 615 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:43,640 Yeah. 616 00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:45,040 Why didn't they look at that? 617 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:46,760 You're so right. 618 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:51,520 Maybe I should think about switching job professions. 619 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,880 Oh goodness. 620 00:37:53,880 --> 00:38:00,600 Gudei then took Meredith's purse, keys and phone on his way out because remember, he 621 00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,440 was a low profile burglar in the area. 622 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,360 And those blood footprints that I had mentioned earlier, the ones that I said was not like 623 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,040 a complete outline, but you could see that it was a shoe. 624 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,040 Guess what? 625 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,320 They matched Gudei's running shoes. 626 00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:17,120 Of course they did. 627 00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,040 Goodness. 628 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:25,280 And the bloody handprint that was found at the crime scene was also linked to Rudy Gudei 629 00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:31,480 plus blood was found in the four boys flat below where investigators believe that he 630 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:37,480 had broken into their apartment to get a change of clothes before heading off to a nightclub 631 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:38,920 later that night. 632 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:39,920 Wow. 633 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,680 I'm assuming Shelby, I don't even know. 634 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,600 I didn't link this while I was doing the research. 635 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:51,360 He could have been arrested a little while later, but I still don't know why Amanda and 636 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,360 Raphael would have gone through everything they went through when they caught him. 637 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:56,840 I don't specifically know. 638 00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,520 If somebody wants to email me and yell at me for not looking that up to see exactly 639 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:07,320 when he was arrested for this, I know he was obviously arrested, but the timeline, I can't 640 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:08,440 really say for sure. 641 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,400 I was just wondering if any of the boys had reported to the police a break in. 642 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,320 Yeah, that's a good question. 643 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,240 Really I didn't see anything about the boys. 644 00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:22,740 I don't even know who they were, where they came from, anything like that. 645 00:39:22,740 --> 00:39:26,140 So there was very little mention of them. 646 00:39:26,140 --> 00:39:31,720 And I don't know if Gudei was a little bit more skilled at entering their apartment versus 647 00:39:31,720 --> 00:39:33,280 Meredith's. 648 00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:39,840 But I will say that his version of the story here is that he stated he was with Meredith 649 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,440 participating in consensual sex. 650 00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:48,440 Afterwards, he went to use the bathroom, but when he returned, he found Meredith dead. 651 00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:49,440 What? 652 00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:50,440 Exactly. 653 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,880 He also became a little indignant and said that the only thing he was guilty of here 654 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,400 was not calling the police when he found her. 655 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:03,920 I mean, if he just went to the bathroom and somebody was being stabbed in the other room, 656 00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,440 wouldn't you think they would have heard screaming? 657 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:10,160 I would think so because it was 47 times. 658 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:11,320 Absolutely. 659 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:15,920 Just my thought or here's some kind of struggle or window break. 660 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:17,280 Yeah, that's just... 661 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:22,320 Yeah, but remember too, there was not a ton of defensive wounds on her. 662 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,120 I mean, for all I know, she could have been asleep when he attacked. 663 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:27,120 Who knows? 664 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,120 I don't know. 665 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:29,120 Poor thing. 666 00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:30,120 Mm-hmm. 667 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:37,960 Rudy Gude was originally sentenced to 30 years behind bars, but it was later reduced to 16. 668 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:44,160 Gude served 15 of these years in prison for Meredith's murder and entered into a work 669 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:51,480 release program in 2017 where he performed community service and went off to work in, 670 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,600 get this Shelby, a criminology library. 671 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:55,600 Wow. 672 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:59,960 And he has always maintained his innocence in Meredith's death. 673 00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:06,360 Even though Gude was sentenced for his crime, Amanda and her boyfriend were also charged 674 00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:07,560 in Meredith's death. 675 00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:13,680 Again, I don't know the specific timeline as far as when Gude was arrested versus Amanda 676 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:22,120 and Rafael, but it wasn't until 2015 that Amanda was completely exonerated by Italy's 677 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,580 highest court for Meredith's murder. 678 00:41:25,580 --> 00:41:32,600 It wasn't until just 2015, Shelby, that Amanda was completely exonerated by Italy's highest 679 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,720 court for Meredith Kertcher's murder. 680 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,520 So she went eight years with this hanging over her head. 681 00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:41,480 I know that had to have been difficult. 682 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:42,480 For sure. 683 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,080 I couldn't imagine. 684 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:49,400 Well, today, Amanda is an advocate for the wrongly convicted. 685 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:55,960 She's written a book about her ordeal and another one advocating for people who are 686 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,360 serving time in prison for crimes that they did not commit. 687 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,400 So we always hear those stories of innocent people behind bars. 688 00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,520 Yeah. 689 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:11,440 Amanda also attended several conferences as a speaker, including one in Italy that was 690 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:17,720 organized by the Italian Innocence Project, which didn't exist when Amanda was first arrested 691 00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:19,600 in 2007. 692 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,440 Amanda currently writes articles in various print magazines. 693 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:30,800 She did end up finishing her degree in creative writing as opposed to her original plan to 694 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:37,280 be an interpreter because Shelby, she has not been able to find regular work due to 695 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,800 how much publicity she has faced through the years. 696 00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:46,200 Obviously in this very highly publicized case, she's kind of had to detour her whole life 697 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,320 because of it. 698 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,560 And I thought this little tidbit was fascinating. 699 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,880 I could not believe this when I found it. 700 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,400 Amanda also hosts a true crime podcast. 701 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:56,400 How cool is that? 702 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:57,880 Oh, that's cool. 703 00:42:57,880 --> 00:42:58,880 Yeah. 704 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:01,720 It's called the truth about true crime. 705 00:43:01,720 --> 00:43:07,080 The last episode Shelby that I saw dropped is in September of 2022. 706 00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:10,920 So I'm not even sure if she's still podcasting this series. 707 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,920 It doesn't look like these episodes drop every week like ours do. 708 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,360 So I mean, there might be some coming out. 709 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:19,360 I'm not really sure. 710 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:20,880 I'm just going to have to keep gauging it. 711 00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,400 I did put this in my library because I'm interested in listening to it. 712 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:25,560 Yeah, that's really cool. 713 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:28,000 I'll have to listen to. 714 00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:36,040 As of 2020, Amanda married, now has a baby and is an outdoor enthusiast who hunts mushrooms 715 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:37,600 in the forest. 716 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:43,080 She also has a mat at her front door that reads, come back with a warrant. 717 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,480 Oh, that's awesome. 718 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,160 Uh huh. 719 00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:53,520 So that's the story of Amanda Knox and her ordeal with the accusations of Meredith Kertcher's 720 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,720 murder. 721 00:43:54,720 --> 00:44:00,600 We would love to receive feedback from our listeners on this storyline or any of our 722 00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,600 episodes. 723 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:02,600 So what do you think Shelbs? 724 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:04,960 I think that was a really, really good one. 725 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,600 I personally don't remember this. 726 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:13,120 For sure was not paying attention to the news, but I am so glad that she can live as a free 727 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:14,120 woman. 728 00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:18,680 She definitely didn't deserve those several horrifying years of her life. 729 00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:19,680 Good for her. 730 00:44:19,680 --> 00:44:20,680 I'm glad. 731 00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:21,680 Yeah. 732 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,920 So I knew that this one had to be our season premiere, but I mean, I knew I was going to 733 00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,200 do this one eventually, but I thought it was definitely worthy. 734 00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,560 Well, thank you. 735 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,800 I do appreciate you sharing it with me. 736 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,320 Do you have a teachable moment for us today? 737 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:36,920 Yes, I do. 738 00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,640 If you ever find a door, a jar, leave immediately. 739 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:43,640 I know you've heard this before, Shelby. 740 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:47,280 And this is something I was told a long, long time ago. 741 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,440 If you could ever come home and just find your door, a jar, never, and I mean never 742 00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,840 enter, you immediately call the police and let them come in and do the work for you. 743 00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,920 Shelby, I don't know if you remember this. 744 00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:04,480 I did come home one time from work and I did find our front door, a jar. 745 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,120 Did I ever tell you that? 746 00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:12,280 No, I don't think you have, but I remember that happening one time as well. 747 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,120 It was later in the evening. 748 00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:19,680 I want to say maybe one of us had some kind of practice and I remember us coming home 749 00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:21,680 and the front door was slightly open. 750 00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:22,680 Did you go in? 751 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,280 No, the three of us, me, you, and Cory had come home and you ended up calling the police 752 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:28,800 to have them come check. 753 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:30,840 Oh yeah, that was the time then. 754 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:31,840 So yeah. 755 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:32,840 Okay. 756 00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:33,840 So you were with me. 757 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:34,840 Yeah. 758 00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:36,800 I'm glad that we could talk this one through together. 759 00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:37,960 So yeah, we came home. 760 00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,400 I thought I was coming home from work. 761 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:44,680 I guess the three of us had the same reaction then because I know I was scared to enter 762 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:45,680 the house. 763 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:48,920 I do not believe we entered the house, did we? 764 00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:49,920 No. 765 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:50,920 Yeah, exactly. 766 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:52,760 So it didn't feel right to me. 767 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,040 I do remember calling 911. 768 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:56,040 Yeah. 769 00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:57,320 Yeah, exactly. 770 00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,520 So it didn't feel right to me. 771 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,520 They went in, they checked things out. 772 00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:07,400 Everything was okay, but I would rather put a call in like that than to have something 773 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,600 happen later, especially with you guys. 774 00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:12,080 You know, I had to kind of watch out for you. 775 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:13,080 Yep. 776 00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:18,040 But it's always better to err on that side of caution as opposed to, like I said, something 777 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:19,040 else happening. 778 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:27,160 And Shelby, I think looking back on that incident, I just wonder if maybe as we were leaving 779 00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,600 the house, one of us did not close that door all the way. 780 00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:31,600 Yeah. 781 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:32,600 Oh yeah. 782 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,800 So yeah, my gut told me not to go inside and that's when I called the police. 783 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,200 So I don't care if it's a false alarm. 784 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:42,720 Police don't care if it's a false alarm. 785 00:46:42,720 --> 00:46:48,920 What I did with my gut that day, it told me to stay outside and the police would definitely 786 00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:54,400 back me up to say, do not ever enter your residence if you come upon a door that should 787 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:56,200 not be in that way. 788 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:57,800 So that's my teachable moment. 789 00:46:57,800 --> 00:46:58,800 I agree. 790 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,280 I think you did the right thing. 791 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:01,280 All right. 792 00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:08,520 Well, with that being said, that is the case of Amanda Knox and let us know what you think. 793 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:15,880 Be sure to DM us on Instagram or send us an email at dying to be found at gmail.com and 794 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,280 we'll talk to you next week. 795 00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:19,280 See you then. 796 00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:22,040 Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found. 797 00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:27,040 Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. 798 00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:32,760 Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Pinterest at Dying to be Found. 799 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:38,640 You can access our website, email, social media and storyline request form by clicking 800 00:47:38,640 --> 00:47:41,400 on our Linktree account found in our show notes. 801 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:46,920 If you like our episodes, consider buying us a coffee at buymeacoffee.com slash dying 802 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:50,160 to be found spelled just like you see it on our logo. 803 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,520 Feel free to message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing or if you'd like a 804 00:47:54,520 --> 00:47:55,520 sticker. 805 00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,280 With that, be sure to check us out every Thursday or every get your podcasts. 806 00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:26,120 We will talk to you all next week.