1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,100 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. 2 00:00:03,100 --> 00:00:07,820 Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions 3 00:00:07,820 --> 00:00:12,380 on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 4 00:00:12,380 --> 00:00:18,560 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,240 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 6 00:00:22,240 --> 00:00:24,240 Hi everyone, I'm Deb. 7 00:00:24,240 --> 00:00:25,240 And I'm Shelby. 8 00:00:25,240 --> 00:00:29,640 And welcome to episode number 48 of Dying to be Found. 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,980 We are trying something new this morning. 10 00:00:31,980 --> 00:00:34,560 We are recording with coffee. 11 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:38,560 So let's hope that we have a little pep in our voice today. 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,440 Shelby and I always love it when our listeners ask us to tell a story and we have Alicia 13 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:45,360 to thank for our storyline. 14 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,080 Thanks for reaching out, Alicia. 15 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,700 We appreciate you. 16 00:00:48,700 --> 00:00:52,920 If you DM me your address on Instagram, I'll mail you a sticker. 17 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,660 Shelby, you're the lucky one today on who I get to tell this tale to. 18 00:00:57,660 --> 00:01:02,520 But just like Alicia, just keep those storyline requests coming and click on our show notes 19 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,160 to find our Linktree account where you can fill out a storyline request and see all our 20 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,040 social media platforms all in one place. 21 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,680 Keep watching our social media because I'm putting my money where my mouth is and adding 22 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:16,840 a couple teasers about season two. 23 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:18,920 I'm so excited to hear. 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,400 Well, Shelby, here's your question for the day. 25 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:29,360 Have you ever had anyone just show up at your door at an odd hour, say maybe late at night 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:33,240 or early in the morning and they really had no reason to be there? 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,920 I don't think so. 28 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:35,920 Okay. 29 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,560 Well, that's a good thing because we know you're locking your doors. 30 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:39,560 Yes. 31 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:41,840 I know Beth is thinking about this question. 32 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:47,780 If she's listening, she likes to open her door at 3 a.m. for women who like to bring 33 00:01:47,780 --> 00:01:50,480 bagels around at that hour. 34 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,080 I did hear that in the podcast a few weeks ago. 35 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:57,920 Well, I can't remember what episodes we were recording and I almost fell out of my chair 36 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,240 when she told me that. 37 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:00,240 I know. 38 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:01,240 It's so crazy. 39 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:07,720 Today, we're going to talk about Carl Eugene Watts, who's believed to have killed upwards 40 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:12,720 of a hundred women and get this Shelby, because they had evil eyes. 41 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:13,720 Wow. 42 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:22,200 Well, Carl Eugene Watts was born in Killeen, Texas on November 7th, 1953 to Dorothy Mae 43 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,820 and Richard Watts, a kindergarten teacher and an army officer. 44 00:02:26,820 --> 00:02:32,020 When Carl was just two years old, Richard took off, leaving Dorothy Mae to raise Carl 45 00:02:32,020 --> 00:02:36,520 and his baby sister Sharon all on her own as a single mother. 46 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:42,720 Dorothy Mae soon moved the three of them to Michigan, where she continued to work as an 47 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:43,720 art teacher. 48 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:49,260 Dorothy Mae did the best she could raising her two children and even spent a lot of time 49 00:02:49,260 --> 00:02:54,440 with her own mother, which is awesome because family is number one in my book. 50 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:55,720 Of course. 51 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:00,840 Carl bonded quickly with his grandmother and soon took on the name that she gave him. 52 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,320 It's a nickname and she would call him Coral because of his Texas accent. 53 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:09,560 And I'm sure that if you can imagine that, Shelby, how he would say Carl and it comes 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:10,560 out Coral. 55 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:12,480 Have you ever seen The Walking Dead? 56 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,400 I have never watched that show. 57 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:16,480 Is there so many named Coral on there? 58 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,320 No, his name is Carl. 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:23,620 He was like one of the best characters and there was a meme going around where instead 60 00:03:23,620 --> 00:03:26,360 of Carl, it was Coral. 61 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:28,380 Oh, gotcha. 62 00:03:28,380 --> 00:03:34,800 When Carl was just eight years old, he suffered a bout of meningitis, which if anybody does 63 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:40,520 not know what that is, it's a viral infection that attacks the brain and the spinal cord. 64 00:03:40,520 --> 00:03:45,200 So it's believed that Carl suffered brain damage from this virus. 65 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:51,980 And on top of this, Carl also suffered from polio and ended up missing his entire third 66 00:03:51,980 --> 00:03:56,400 grade year due to long hospitalization periods. 67 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,480 So poor kid, he is getting a rough start here. 68 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:00,480 For sure. 69 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:07,600 Family members say that Carl's mental capacities had deteriorated during this year and he never 70 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,240 was the same after his illnesses. 71 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:16,520 So spoiler alert, Carl was later captured and stood trial for multiple heinous crimes. 72 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:22,920 And during his trial, psychiatrists performed tests on him and concluded that his IQ was 73 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,800 only around 75. 74 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:29,000 The average is 111. 75 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:35,160 So Carl suffered from lifelong delusions that could have contributed to his mental health. 76 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:40,400 And we're going to say probably went back to those illnesses that he had as a child, 77 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,000 but feel sorry for the child here, not the adult. 78 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:44,480 Yeah, absolutely. 79 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:50,720 When Carl was nine, his mother remarried a man who had six kids coming into the marriage 80 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,400 and the couple had two more children after that. 81 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,340 So between his step siblings and his sister, oh my gosh, Shelby, the head count in the 82 00:04:59,340 --> 00:05:02,400 family was 10 kids and two adults. 83 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,400 That's 12 people in one house. 84 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:06,680 Yeah, that's a lot. 85 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:12,840 Obviously Carl got lost in the crowd and became somewhat invisible, which he didn't take it 86 00:05:12,840 --> 00:05:14,080 to heart though. 87 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:19,320 Carl simply internalized everything, including the fact that when he was around the age of 88 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:24,880 12, he began fantasizing about torturing and killing girls and women. 89 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,120 Oh my gosh. 90 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:27,880 So think about that for a moment. 91 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,160 Isn't that crazy? 92 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,880 Yeah, that's very young to start thinking about something like that. 93 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:34,000 Oh yes. 94 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:40,240 As Carl reached adolescence, he went through the motions in school and only read at fourth 95 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:41,280 grade level. 96 00:05:41,280 --> 00:05:48,520 He did take on a paper delivery route at the age of 15, but ended up attacking a 26 year 97 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:52,080 old woman during one of his morning routes. 98 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:53,080 Could you imagine? 99 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:55,240 Wow, was he a big kid? 100 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,000 He wasn't massively, he was probably just an average size. 101 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:00,840 Nothing really stood out about him. 102 00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:07,480 Well, when the police tracked Carl down after that attack, he simply stated that he just 103 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:09,160 felt like beating someone up. 104 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,160 The end. 105 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,880 Yeah, I just felt like beating somebody up. 106 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:12,880 What? 107 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:13,880 Yep. 108 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:19,400 Carl was taken to the Lafayette Mental Health Clinic after this attack on his paper route 109 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:25,180 and was medically diagnosed with impulsive and passive aggressive tendencies. 110 00:06:25,180 --> 00:06:28,600 Remember now, he is only 15 years old. 111 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:34,480 On top of this diagnosis, the psychiatrist also reported that Carl was paranoid and had 112 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:37,440 trouble controlling homicidal tendencies. 113 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:40,080 Oh my goodness. 114 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:43,000 Carl was ordered to receive outpatient treatment. 115 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,080 So obviously he's going to go to work every day, but he's also going to have to stop by 116 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:52,520 his medical facility and get some treatment on a regular basis. 117 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:54,560 That's a lot for a 15 year old kid. 118 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:56,280 Oh yes, absolutely. 119 00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:01,160 Well, over the next five years, think about this for a moment, it is a lot for a 15 year 120 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:07,840 old kid, but Carl only went to outpatient treatment as ordered less than 10 times in 121 00:07:07,840 --> 00:07:09,160 that five year period. 122 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:10,160 Wow. 123 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,960 I mean, if you're thinking about the math there, Shelby, he only went to outpatient treatment 124 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,020 nine times in five years. 125 00:07:16,020 --> 00:07:17,640 So he really wasn't going at all. 126 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:20,360 Was he supposed to go daily, weekly? 127 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:26,520 I would assume that he would probably have to check in if anything, at least every 30 128 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:27,520 days. 129 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:29,000 So that would mean 12 times a year. 130 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:30,000 Yeah. 131 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,080 But he went less than 10 in five years. 132 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:39,080 Carl did report to the Lafayette Medical Clinic for a checkup in 1974. 133 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,060 And during this visit, the psychiatrist made an assessment that Carl was struggling with 134 00:07:44,060 --> 00:07:48,760 his sexuality and continued to have strong urges to beat women up. 135 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:50,720 I don't know where that would come from. 136 00:07:50,720 --> 00:07:55,160 Maybe just the transition to the step family and all the dynamics. 137 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:56,160 Who knows? 138 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,320 Yeah, that sounds likely. 139 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,840 That and his hormones going crazy at 15. 140 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:02,400 Oh yeah, absolutely. 141 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:09,360 Well, I'm going to talk about a time period between 1974 and 1982. 142 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:16,620 By this time, Carl was pegged as the Sunday morning slasher and killed at least 12 women. 143 00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:21,820 I'm going to provide you and our listeners a timeline of events in our show notes because 144 00:08:21,820 --> 00:08:26,480 Shelby, the list is very extensive of Carl's victims. 145 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,720 And I do always try to give Carl's victims a name, whether they survived or not. 146 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,000 But again, there's a long list and I do want to warn you that there is a pattern in this 147 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:40,620 timeline of heightened violence as you go through it. 148 00:08:40,620 --> 00:08:48,960 And according to police between 1974 and 1982, Carl went undetected because largely during 149 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:55,440 those years, many jurisdictions in those days notoriously did not talk to each other. 150 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,660 They simply treated their cases as local. 151 00:08:58,660 --> 00:09:02,720 So there was not a lot of communication between jurisdictions. 152 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,440 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 153 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,320 I don't even think cell phones had come out of that, had they? 154 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:15,240 No, cell phones came out in the early 2000s, like real or probably the turn of the millennium. 155 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:21,640 Carl also got away with his crimes for a long time because he never sexually assaulted anyone. 156 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:28,120 DNA evidence in those days was very minimal and sure authorities could collect hairs and 157 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:33,720 fibers, but imagine simply looking at those under a microscope for comparisons. 158 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,760 They simply didn't have that sophisticated equipment back then. 159 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,000 No, of course not. 160 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,000 Carl was dubbed this Sunday morning slasher because once police began investigating these 161 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:50,880 crimes, they noticed that all attacks occurred mainly outside women's apartment buildings 162 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,440 somewhere around 4 a.m. 163 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:56,200 What are these women doing out at 4 a.m.? 164 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:57,660 That's a good question. 165 00:09:57,660 --> 00:10:03,600 I'm going to talk about a couple of cases where the victims knowingly engaged with Carl, 166 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,060 but I'm doing this to let you know his MO in this whole situation. 167 00:10:08,060 --> 00:10:13,300 So think about that because it's likely that he used the same routine when attacking all 168 00:10:13,300 --> 00:10:14,300 his victims. 169 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:18,840 So he's got the same MO, it's working for him, and of course he's going to use it on 170 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,880 the next unsuspecting person that comes along, right? 171 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:22,880 Right. 172 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:30,560 On October 25th, 1974, Carl paid a visit to Leonor Nazake's apartment asking to speak 173 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:32,520 with someone named Charles. 174 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:36,200 And Charles, by the way, is one of Carl's siblings. 175 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:41,400 So he's just knocking randomly on somebody's door asking if he could speak to Charles. 176 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:42,400 Oh, wow. 177 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:43,400 Mm-hmm. 178 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,920 Leonor was speaking to Carl with a chain lock on and said that nobody lived there by that 179 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:49,920 name. 180 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:54,200 She asked Carl if he'd like to leave a note and undid the lock. 181 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:55,420 I don't understand that. 182 00:10:55,420 --> 00:11:00,600 She just told him that nobody by the name of Charles was there, but hey, would you like 183 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:02,240 to leave a note anyway? 184 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:03,920 That makes no sense to me. 185 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,200 No, it doesn't. 186 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:11,580 When her back was turned, Carl attacked, killing her, and he simply walked out of the apartment 187 00:11:11,580 --> 00:11:13,320 like nothing ever happened. 188 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,280 Wow, that's crazy. 189 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:16,280 Mm-hmm. 190 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:23,280 Just five days later, Shelby, on October 30th, 1974, Gloria Steele was brutally attacked 191 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,880 at her apartment. 192 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:30,360 An eyewitness later told police that she had witnessed a black male walking up the stairwell 193 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:34,160 of her apartment looking for a guy named Charles. 194 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:38,200 This specific attack, Shelby, will come into play in just a little bit. 195 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:39,200 I'm very curious. 196 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:40,200 Mm-hmm. 197 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:47,600 A few weeks later, Diane Williams, the property manager from the same apartment complex, noticed 198 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:52,320 a man roaming around the property looking for a man named Charles. 199 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Diane confronted him when he knocked on her own apartment door, and when she answered, 200 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:00,080 he immediately attacked. 201 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:06,160 But here's the clincher shelves and divine intervention, the phone rang, and Carl was 202 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:12,560 scared off when Diane was able to knock the phone off the hook and scream for help. 203 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:13,720 Wow. 204 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:21,200 Diane was later able to identify Carl in a lineup in December of 1974, and he was charged 205 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:22,200 with assault. 206 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,080 That's all they could get him for. 207 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:30,120 During his hearing, Carl asked to be admitted to the Kalamazoo Mental Hospital, as opposed 208 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,920 to spending 45 days in jail. 209 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:38,640 And he did end up spending one year in jail for his previous assaults on record. 210 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:44,160 But at this point in time in 1974, he ended up in the mental hospital, which is good because 211 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,360 he's had all those diagnoses, right? 212 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:47,640 Yeah, for sure. 213 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,680 But to me, it just sounds like he knows what he's doing. 214 00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:56,600 So even though he does have those mental issues, I don't know, I just find it. 215 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,040 Well yeah, he's very methodical because he's walking around asking for Charles. 216 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,220 It works for him. 217 00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:04,520 So he's going to keep on doing it, right? 218 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:11,520 Well, it does seem that Carl's took about a five year hiatus, mainly because Shelby, 219 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,760 during this time period, Carl got married and had a child. 220 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:24,160 However, killings did begin again in 1979, and it's believed that in all, Carl had that 221 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,480 upwards of 100 victims. 222 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:31,120 And when I was piecing together my notes, Shelby, I saw the same brutality amongst Carl's 223 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:32,120 victims. 224 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,960 I really didn't want to go over that for the next several minutes. 225 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,280 And that's why I put those in the show notes because it's very thorough. 226 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:41,700 You can see the timeline in a table. 227 00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:44,260 There's just too many to talk about. 228 00:13:44,260 --> 00:13:52,680 On December 1st, 1979, Helen Dutcher, age 36, was attacked, but one eyewitness was able 229 00:13:52,680 --> 00:14:00,120 to provide a sketch to a sketch artist with a drawing that actually resembled Carl Watts. 230 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:01,120 That's interesting. 231 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:02,120 Yeah. 232 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:03,520 So that's the one that you would see on the news, right? 233 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,120 Of course, it's going to get some national attention at this point. 234 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:14,360 And throughout 1980, Carl conducted attacks on women at least once a month, if not more. 235 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:18,280 He did take about a two month break late in the summer. 236 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:25,360 And I believe that's when his wife ended up divorcing him during the summer of 1980, Shelby. 237 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,720 This may have been around the time that Carl was either acting erratically or on his rampage. 238 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:31,720 And that makes sense. 239 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:32,720 He's going through a divorce. 240 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:39,560 I'm sure there's a lot of emotions going on, so he's just going to look for Charles. 241 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:45,600 When things started up again in the fall, Carl crossed the border from Michigan to Windsor, 242 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:50,200 Ontario and assaulted a woman named Sandra Delpe. 243 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,680 She was 20 years old and coming outside of her apartment. 244 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:57,480 Sandra did thankfully survive this attack. 245 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:58,480 Oh, wow. 246 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,800 Yeah, so Shelbs, I'm actually pretty familiar with this area that Carl committed his crimes 247 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:10,620 because whenever I visit Aunt Beth up in Canada, I fly to the Detroit airport and end up driving 248 00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:11,940 the rest of the way. 249 00:15:11,940 --> 00:15:16,640 And you actually have to pass through Windsor as you cross that border from Michigan on 250 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:17,640 the way to Aunt Beth's house. 251 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,800 I don't know if you remember this because you were probably 13 when I took you there. 252 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,840 Yeah, I was so sick. 253 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:26,160 I think I had strep throat. 254 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:27,160 Oh gosh. 255 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:28,560 You might have that right now. 256 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:29,840 You should probably go to the doctor. 257 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:31,320 Yeah, I probably should. 258 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:37,760 In all, Carl committed at least eight murders in Michigan before he decided it was time 259 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,200 to leave town because he was beginning to get some heat from the police. 260 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:48,280 Like I said, that sketch was on the news by then and authorities had placed Carl under 261 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,160 24 hour surveillance. 262 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,200 Wow. 263 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:58,000 After his two attacks in Windsor, Carl headed back to his roots and relocated to Texas. 264 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:00,640 But not for nostalgic reasons, Shelby. 265 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:06,960 Carl went to Houston, Texas in the late 80s to blend in to what at the time was known 266 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,320 as the murder capital of the United States back in the 80s. 267 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:12,840 Oh my gosh. 268 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:13,840 Wow. 269 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:17,440 Which I did not know that because we know that is not the case today. 270 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:18,960 I didn't know that either. 271 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:25,200 The Michigan police were able to track Carl to Texas and even warned the police there 272 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,780 of his presence. 273 00:16:26,780 --> 00:16:30,560 So they are starting to communicate, which is a good thing. 274 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:39,880 However, between October 1980 and May 1982, Carl committed 11 more attacks against women 275 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,600 where only two survived. 276 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,600 Oh, that's so sad. 277 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:44,600 Yeah. 278 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:50,320 After these two attacks, Carl broke into an apartment where Melinda Aguilar and Laurie 279 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:52,680 Lister were roommates. 280 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:57,140 Earlier in the day, Carl had attacked Laurie, leaving her for dead. 281 00:16:57,140 --> 00:17:03,280 When Melinda arrived home from work, she discovered Laurie and immediately was attacked herself. 282 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:09,540 Oh, I don't know if he knew a second person was going to come along, but Carl had his 283 00:17:09,540 --> 00:17:14,600 work cut out for him because neither woman had died at his hand. 284 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:21,480 As he dragged Laurie upstairs and began filling up the tub to finish the job by drowning her, 285 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:27,120 Shelby, renegade Melinda, dragged herself out of the apartment and got to a neighbor's 286 00:17:27,120 --> 00:17:28,280 house for help. 287 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:30,400 How amazing is that? 288 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:31,640 That is amazing. 289 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:33,800 Very brave. 290 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:36,880 Carl discovered Melinda had disappeared. 291 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:41,880 So of course he fled the scene, but he was soon apprehended that very night. 292 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,800 And once he was detained, detectives asked Carl why he had attacked these women. 293 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,000 And his response, Shelby was, quote, they had evil eyes, unquote. 294 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,000 Yeah. 295 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,200 I wonder if he was in a sense stalking them. 296 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:56,400 And I don't know. 297 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,080 It just doesn't make any sense. 298 00:17:58,080 --> 00:17:59,080 It doesn't. 299 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,880 But remember, he's been diagnosed with a lot of mental illness. 300 00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:03,880 Yeah. 301 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,560 And that's all probably stemming from the meningitis that he had as a child. 302 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:09,560 Yeah. 303 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:14,720 Upon investigation, Texas authorities did not feel like they had enough evidence to 304 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:22,200 convict Carl for the attacks placed on Melinda and Laurie from that night that he got arrested. 305 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,160 But we do know that Texas is known for the death penalty, right? 306 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:27,160 Yes. 307 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:33,480 Well, prosecutors offered Carl immunity if he would provide information on the other 308 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:34,480 offenders. 309 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:40,800 He agreed to these terms and pled guilty to burglary with the intent to kill when he entered 310 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:46,200 Melinda and Laurie's home, which could potentially put him behind bars for 60 years. 311 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,200 Okay. 312 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,200 Well, that's good. 313 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,920 At least they're going to get him behind bars. 314 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:50,920 That is good. 315 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,560 But for all of the attacks that he made, 60 years just doesn't sound like enough. 316 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,100 No, absolutely not. 317 00:18:58,100 --> 00:19:04,000 But let's just say that authorities are probably not quite aware yet how many attacks he has 318 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:05,480 made on women. 319 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:06,480 That's true. 320 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:07,480 Okay. 321 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:09,200 So I'm not sure if you caught this. 322 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:15,240 And I did say potentially 60 years behind bars, Shelby, because Carl's case was classified 323 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:20,840 as a use of a deadly weapon in the drowning incident. 324 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:25,640 Prosecutors considered that bathtub that he had put Laurie in as a deadly weapon. 325 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:26,640 Oh, wow. 326 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:27,800 I know. 327 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:34,920 The judge ruled his case as a nonviolent felon, which made Carl eligible for early release 328 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:36,180 from prison. 329 00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:38,440 But he left her for dead. 330 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,920 How is that not violent? 331 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:42,160 Good question. 332 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,160 Good question. 333 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,120 But it was a assault. 334 00:19:46,120 --> 00:19:49,480 In these cases, Shelby, it's simple assault. 335 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:50,480 That's the crazy part of it. 336 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:52,800 I don't understand the legal system. 337 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,040 So I guess I have no place to make any judgment here. 338 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,120 It's just crazy. 339 00:19:59,120 --> 00:20:00,120 Uh-huh. 340 00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:07,960 Now, Carl was what the penal system considered to be a model prisoner, which allowed him, 341 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:15,840 Shelby, to subtract three days off his sentence for every one day served based on good behavior. 342 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:17,640 Can you believe that? 343 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:18,860 No. 344 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:24,240 This gave Carl a release date of May 9th, 2006. 345 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:30,640 I think at the time, there was a lot of overcrowding in the prison systems. 346 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,720 I don't know if they tried something new, but yeah. 347 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,440 What do you think about getting those three days off his sentence for every one day served? 348 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:39,440 I don't know. 349 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:43,200 That's just silly. 350 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:50,040 In 2004, Carl's release date undoubtedly created public outcry, obviously. 351 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,540 I'm sure. 352 00:20:52,540 --> 00:20:58,000 If you look at the timeline, we know the wheels of justice do not act swiftly. 353 00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:05,080 So people knew at least two years in advance that Carl would receive an early release date. 354 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,560 They came up with the three days off for every one day served. 355 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:14,320 So everybody was able to calculate when that release date was going to be because it was 356 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:15,520 announced. 357 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:21,200 And this obviously did not sit well with the public, nor with Mike Cox. 358 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,200 The Michigan attorney general at the time. 359 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:29,820 Now remember, he was attacking a lot of women in the Midwest, and then he made his way down 360 00:21:29,820 --> 00:21:31,160 to Texas. 361 00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:36,800 So obviously the Michigan attorney general did not have this case on the back burner. 362 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:42,120 After the Texas judicial system announced that Carl Watts would likely get that early 363 00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:49,400 release, Mike Cox made an appeal to the public for anyone and everyone to come forward with 364 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:57,280 any information on the Carl Watts murder cases in Michigan that could inevitably put him 365 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,640 behind bars once again. 366 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:01,140 Wow. 367 00:22:01,140 --> 00:22:07,240 Because Carl may have received immunity for his testimony in the Texas murders, that did 368 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,260 not apply to the Michigan murders. 369 00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:11,920 That is a good thing, Shelby. 370 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,680 That's one smart attorney general. 371 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,240 Yeah, he is. 372 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,480 From this plea, naturally, witnesses did come forward. 373 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:25,240 One man who I had mentioned that had come forward back in December of 1979, he was the 374 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:30,880 one that gave that description to the sketch artist that resembled Carl Watts. 375 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:32,280 He came forward, Shelby. 376 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,280 Well, good for him. 377 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:35,920 Yes, absolutely. 378 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:42,720 Well, Carl did go on trial in Michigan, but the jury did not feel that this witness's 379 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,680 testimony held up. 380 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:50,560 But because the judge ruled that the jury could hear Carl's confessions from the Texas 381 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:57,520 cases, Carl was sentenced to two life sentences at the Lafayette Clinic, which is that mental 382 00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:02,920 hospital that I had told you about, without the possibility of parole for the murders 383 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,840 of Gloria Steele and Helen Dutcher. 384 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,640 Well, that's good. 385 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:08,640 Absolutely. 386 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,040 At least he got those charges put on him. 387 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:23,200 Well, Carl was released from the Texas penal system in May 2006 after serving just 24 years 388 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:29,600 of his 60-year term, but he was immediately extradited to Michigan, where he was sentenced 389 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:33,400 to life in September of 2007. 390 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:40,800 So he ended up eventually dying in prison of prostate cancer at the age of 53, just 391 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,880 weeks after his sentencing, Shelby. 392 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:44,880 Wow. 393 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:51,960 Well, that is the story of Carl Watts, also known as the Sunday Morning Slasher. 394 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,960 So thank you, Alicia, for suggesting this storyline. 395 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,960 We would love to receive feedback on this and any of our other episodes. 396 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:05,220 So DM us on Instagram and make sure you leave a five-star rating. 397 00:24:05,220 --> 00:24:06,220 What do you think, Shelbs? 398 00:24:06,220 --> 00:24:07,720 Yeah, thanks so much, Alicia. 399 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,200 That was a very interesting story. 400 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,920 Do we have a teachable moment for today? 401 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:14,560 We do have a teachable moment. 402 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,520 It's short and sweet today, Shelbs. 403 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,920 I gave several examples today where women answered the door to a stranger. 404 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,120 I'm guilty of it. 405 00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:32,880 I even had a woman barge into my house with her child one day because she wanted me to 406 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:33,880 fix her computer. 407 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:34,880 What? 408 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:36,880 Did I tell you about that? 409 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:37,880 No. 410 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,320 So for our listeners, John fixes computers for a living. 411 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,760 And if you live in Georgia, DM me. 412 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:45,480 I'll give you his information. 413 00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:51,080 Well, this woman, Shelby, was actually there to speak to John, but he was not home. 414 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,520 And of course, when the doorbell rings, you're going to go answer it. 415 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,240 She literally barged her way in. 416 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,820 And in all aspects, Shelby, she could have been a decoy for anything else. 417 00:25:02,820 --> 00:25:04,640 Somebody else could have been waiting. 418 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,240 She had a child with her. 419 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,640 So these are the little things that you need to think about. 420 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,280 Oh my gosh. 421 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,720 She was there for about an hour and I'm trying to fix her computer problems for her. 422 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:15,720 What? 423 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,800 You're too nice. 424 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,660 I am too nice. 425 00:25:19,660 --> 00:25:21,840 He used to say, Oh, my wife is home. 426 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,840 Just ring the doorbell. 427 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:23,840 Uh-uh. 428 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:24,840 Don't do that. 429 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:25,840 Leave it on the porch. 430 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:26,840 Leave it in. 431 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:27,840 I don't know. 432 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:28,840 Just leave it somewhere. 433 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,280 But I'm not opening the door. 434 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,780 So here we go. 435 00:25:33,780 --> 00:25:34,780 Teachable moment. 436 00:25:34,780 --> 00:25:36,600 She's already in my house. 437 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,760 It could have been too late. 438 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:43,960 My point is, if you're not expecting anybody and I don't care if they know if you're home 439 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,480 or not, don't answer the door. 440 00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:51,680 Call your significant other to see if they're expecting someone. 441 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:53,000 Call the police. 442 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,240 Whatever you need to do, but don't let them in the house. 443 00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,920 I know that was really stupid of me. 444 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,880 It could be a matter of life and death. 445 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,640 Obviously, Carl used the ploy for looking for his brother in this case. 446 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:13,320 But you and I just had this conversation when we talked about the North Pond Hermit Shelves. 447 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,920 People will say anything as to why they're at your door. 448 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,040 So my teachable moment is listen to your gut. 449 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,020 Don't open the door to strangers. 450 00:26:22,020 --> 00:26:23,880 You owe them nothing. 451 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,880 That's exactly right. 452 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:26,880 So there we go. 453 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:27,880 There you have it. 454 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,080 The story of Carl Eugene Watts. 455 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,080 Well, thanks. 456 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,080 That was a good one. 457 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,920 That was a pretty good one. 458 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:38,200 Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found. 459 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:43,240 Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. 460 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:48,920 Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to be Found. 461 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:54,800 You can access our website, email, social media, and storyline request form by clicking 462 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,580 on our Linktree account found in our show notes. 463 00:26:57,580 --> 00:27:03,080 If you like our episodes, consider buying us a coffee at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Dying 464 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:06,340 to be Found spelled just like you see it on our logo. 465 00:27:06,340 --> 00:27:10,000 Feel free to message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing. 466 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:15,080 Or if you'd like a sticker with that, be sure to check us out every Thursday wherever you 467 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:16,480 get your podcasts. 468 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:29,000 We will talk to you all next week.