1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,100 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. 2 00:00:03,100 --> 00:00:07,820 Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions 3 00:00:07,820 --> 00:00:12,380 on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 4 00:00:12,380 --> 00:00:18,560 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,360 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 6 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,380 Hi everyone, I'm Deb. 7 00:00:25,380 --> 00:00:26,420 And I'm Beth. 8 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:29,380 And we are so glad you are here today. 9 00:00:29,380 --> 00:00:39,100 If you have a storyline you would like to hear, be sure to message us on Instagram or email us at dying2theletterbefound at gmail.com. 10 00:00:39,100 --> 00:00:46,040 You can also access these links plus our storyline request form on our link tree found in our show notes. 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,040 But before we get started, Beth, I have a question for you. 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:50,540 What? 13 00:00:50,540 --> 00:00:52,640 Do you ever read tabloid magazines? 14 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:53,440 I do. 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,560 A few of them. 16 00:00:54,560 --> 00:01:00,860 If they're hanging around or I've just got three from a girlfriend, I haven't reopened them yet. 17 00:01:00,860 --> 00:01:03,020 But yeah, I still like my tabloids. 18 00:01:03,020 --> 00:01:09,500 Okay, I'm going to say I loved reading National Enquirer when I was a teenager. 19 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:16,200 I remember one time I went to dad's to visit and he was all up in arms about me reading a tabloid. 20 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:21,940 He basically told me that they were complete nonsense and I was wasting my time reading them. 21 00:01:21,940 --> 00:01:22,860 But it was just fun. 22 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:25,940 To me, it was just fun as a kid reading those stories. 23 00:01:25,940 --> 00:01:38,660 For those of you who do not know what a tabloid is, it's a newspaper that gives you smaller articles and bigger pictures to pull the reader in just by the pictures alone. 24 00:01:38,660 --> 00:01:44,100 So the content is not as vast as you would get from a newspaper article. 25 00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:46,340 But yeah, so okay, cool. 26 00:01:46,340 --> 00:01:47,220 Any thoughts? 27 00:01:47,220 --> 00:01:48,020 Well, good. 28 00:01:48,020 --> 00:01:52,860 A lot of them were just things that you would think, that never happens. 29 00:01:52,860 --> 00:01:54,340 But we talked about Sasquatch. 30 00:01:54,340 --> 00:01:58,220 So you know, tabloids may be right. 31 00:01:58,220 --> 00:01:59,700 True and UFOs. 32 00:01:59,700 --> 00:02:00,700 Exactly. 33 00:02:00,700 --> 00:02:01,700 They are right. 34 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:04,140 I so believe in them. 35 00:02:04,140 --> 00:02:06,180 I'm on the fence on that one. 36 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:07,180 Okay. 37 00:02:07,180 --> 00:02:08,180 All right. 38 00:02:08,180 --> 00:02:15,460 Today's episode is based on the accounts of two parties and it's not entirely clear whose 39 00:02:15,460 --> 00:02:22,900 story is correct because we're talking about Joyce McKinney and Kirk Anderson today. 40 00:02:22,900 --> 00:02:29,600 Joyce was also known as Madame Mayhem and Kirk was known as the Manicled Mormon. 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:30,600 Have you heard of them? 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:31,600 No. 43 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:32,600 Okay. 44 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,900 Well, I'm going to say there are two main characters. 45 00:02:35,900 --> 00:02:41,700 I'll be talking mainly from Joyce's perspective because she's the one who disclosed the majority 46 00:02:41,700 --> 00:02:48,580 of the information that I'm going to talk about from the British and American tabloids. 47 00:02:48,580 --> 00:02:54,180 Now I found enough credible resources to give an account to our story. 48 00:02:54,180 --> 00:02:58,780 And I'm going to start by saying that I was in a chat room with some of our fellow podcasters. 49 00:02:58,780 --> 00:02:59,820 Hi True Kramers. 50 00:02:59,820 --> 00:03:00,820 We love you. 51 00:03:00,820 --> 00:03:03,720 Yes, we do. 52 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,980 And one of them asked for someone to please cover the story. 53 00:03:06,980 --> 00:03:11,860 Beth, since you always say that we give our listeners episodes that you can relate to, 54 00:03:11,860 --> 00:03:17,620 and I always say that our brand always leaves our stories open to interpretation. 55 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:20,140 I don't think you're going to be disappointed today. 56 00:03:20,140 --> 00:03:21,140 Woo. 57 00:03:21,140 --> 00:03:22,140 Yeah. 58 00:03:22,140 --> 00:03:24,960 The only thing is I did not get permission to give a show out. 59 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,060 So if you're listening, you know who you are. 60 00:03:28,060 --> 00:03:33,060 Please email us and I will be sure to give you that show out in a future episode. 61 00:03:33,060 --> 00:03:34,060 How about that? 62 00:03:34,060 --> 00:03:35,060 Okay. 63 00:03:35,060 --> 00:03:36,060 So let's begin. 64 00:03:36,060 --> 00:03:42,340 Joyce Burnan McKinney was born and raised as an only child by two school teachers in 65 00:03:42,340 --> 00:03:44,860 Minneapolis, North Carolina. 66 00:03:44,860 --> 00:03:50,260 Minneapolis for our listeners who don't know, and you Beth probably, is a small town located 67 00:03:50,260 --> 00:03:55,140 in Western North Carolina in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains. 68 00:03:55,140 --> 00:03:59,940 And we've talked about the Appalachian Mountains before because I live in the Appalachian Mountains 69 00:03:59,940 --> 00:04:00,940 of Georgia. 70 00:04:00,940 --> 00:04:06,920 I could not find Joyce's birth date, but just based on my research and everything that I 71 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:13,100 pieced together, I'm going to say that she was born somewhere around the early 1950s, 72 00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:15,300 1951 possibly. 73 00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:16,600 Give or take a year or two. 74 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,460 So hopefully I'm not way off with that age frame, but I'm thinking that she was born 75 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:21,680 in the 50s. 76 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:27,920 As a child, Joyce grew up loving theater and beauty pageants, which will come into play 77 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,180 in just a moment. 78 00:04:29,180 --> 00:04:31,380 Beth, how do you feel about beauty pageants? 79 00:04:31,380 --> 00:04:35,660 I was thinking about that the other day because I was thinking, gee, there hasn't been a pageant 80 00:04:35,660 --> 00:04:37,220 on TV in a while. 81 00:04:37,220 --> 00:04:40,900 I think it's culturally, socially unacceptable anymore. 82 00:04:40,900 --> 00:04:41,900 It is. 83 00:04:41,900 --> 00:04:44,140 Well, if I had to take it or leave it, I'll leave it. 84 00:04:44,140 --> 00:04:48,400 I remember growing up, Kathy always loved watching those beauty pageants. 85 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:49,940 Did you watch those with her? 86 00:04:49,940 --> 00:04:51,760 I loved them. 87 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:52,760 What did you like about them? 88 00:04:52,760 --> 00:05:00,260 I don't know, I think the elegance and the answers they would give to the various questions, 89 00:05:00,260 --> 00:05:04,020 just an all around, it was a fun thing to watch. 90 00:05:04,020 --> 00:05:05,020 Very cool. 91 00:05:05,020 --> 00:05:09,700 Well, I found them uber boring, no offense, because we all have different tastes, but 92 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:12,860 I never could sit still long enough to watch those. 93 00:05:12,860 --> 00:05:20,180 But moving on to Joyce, she eventually went to earn a bachelor's degree in fine arts from 94 00:05:20,180 --> 00:05:26,000 East Tennessee University and eventually moved out to Utah and then Wyoming. 95 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,660 She had an IQ measurement of 168. 96 00:05:30,660 --> 00:05:33,380 So Beth, I'm going to just ask you a bunch of questions today. 97 00:05:33,380 --> 00:05:36,000 Who do you think is one of the smartest people in history? 98 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,180 What name comes to mind? 99 00:05:37,180 --> 00:05:38,460 Albert Einstein. 100 00:05:38,460 --> 00:05:41,620 Okay, so let me put this into perspective. 101 00:05:41,620 --> 00:05:45,260 The average IQ is somewhere around 111. 102 00:05:45,260 --> 00:05:53,060 Albert Einstein was never actually tested, but experts estimate that his IQ was 160. 103 00:05:53,060 --> 00:05:54,060 Wow. 104 00:05:54,060 --> 00:05:55,060 Yeah. 105 00:05:55,060 --> 00:06:01,020 When I began researching this case, I found a really cool link of the top 35 people whose 106 00:06:01,020 --> 00:06:05,620 IQs surpass Einstein, who were smarter than him. 107 00:06:05,620 --> 00:06:06,620 Really? 108 00:06:06,620 --> 00:06:07,620 Yep. 109 00:06:07,620 --> 00:06:10,540 Joyce says that she has an IQ of 168. 110 00:06:10,540 --> 00:06:13,100 So here she surpasses Einstein. 111 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:18,520 I don't know what substance there is to that, but I'll put it in our show notes for anyone 112 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,060 who is as nerdy as me. 113 00:06:21,060 --> 00:06:28,580 And just to clarify, IQ equals your mental age divided by your chronological age times 114 00:06:28,580 --> 00:06:29,720 100. 115 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:30,720 So just let that sink in. 116 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:32,180 You all can do the math. 117 00:06:32,180 --> 00:06:36,340 You'd probably have to take some kind of IQ test to get your number, but just remember 118 00:06:36,340 --> 00:06:38,820 111 is average. 119 00:06:38,820 --> 00:06:46,420 In 1973, Joyce participated in a Miss World pageant where she was crowned Miss Wyoming. 120 00:06:46,420 --> 00:06:48,180 How about that? 121 00:06:48,180 --> 00:06:49,180 That sounds pretty cool. 122 00:06:49,180 --> 00:06:55,340 I mean, I'm going to say she is truly a gorgeous woman. 123 00:06:55,340 --> 00:07:01,760 It looks to me she's got an innocent, but just a very subtle, innocent, I don't know. 124 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:03,760 She's just beautiful all the way around. 125 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,340 If you looked at her pictures when she was young, gorgeous. 126 00:07:07,340 --> 00:07:13,260 Now don't confuse this pageant with Miss USA because they are completely different. 127 00:07:13,260 --> 00:07:17,660 And since Beth, I told you that I didn't like watching beauty pageants growing up. 128 00:07:17,660 --> 00:07:21,980 I didn't really put in a lot of effort to find out the difference. 129 00:07:21,980 --> 00:07:27,740 Joyce also began studying for her master's degree in theater and drama at Brigham Young 130 00:07:27,740 --> 00:07:32,480 University in Salt Lake City, Utah, while staying with a Mormon family. 131 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:33,480 How about that? 132 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:34,480 Sounds nice. 133 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:39,380 We've talked about Mormons before because that's Elizabeth Smart in her family. 134 00:07:39,380 --> 00:07:40,860 Oh yes. 135 00:07:40,860 --> 00:07:41,860 Yeah. 136 00:07:41,860 --> 00:07:45,940 Joyce soon became obsessed with a little Mormon family. 137 00:07:45,940 --> 00:07:47,740 You may have heard of them. 138 00:07:47,740 --> 00:07:48,740 The Osmonds? 139 00:07:48,740 --> 00:07:49,740 Really? 140 00:07:49,740 --> 00:07:50,740 Yeah. 141 00:07:50,740 --> 00:07:51,740 Gosh. 142 00:07:51,740 --> 00:07:58,300 She states that she had a brief relationship with Wayne Osmond and I believe he was the 143 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:01,180 second oldest out of all seven children. 144 00:08:01,180 --> 00:08:02,960 I only know Donnie and Marie. 145 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:08,360 We should let people know who they are because people listen from around the world and they're 146 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,420 probably wondering who the Osmonds are. 147 00:08:10,420 --> 00:08:11,420 Yeah. 148 00:08:11,420 --> 00:08:12,420 You want to tell them? 149 00:08:12,420 --> 00:08:13,980 This is more your era than mine. 150 00:08:13,980 --> 00:08:14,980 So you go ahead. 151 00:08:14,980 --> 00:08:18,460 I just remember listening to your music and that was one of the groups. 152 00:08:18,460 --> 00:08:25,860 Well, I listened to Donnie Osmond singing on record over and over and over again. 153 00:08:25,860 --> 00:08:29,300 And then Donnie and Marie had a show back in the seventies. 154 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:30,780 Yes, they did. 155 00:08:30,780 --> 00:08:38,140 And then Donnie went on to the stage and played Joseph in the amazing Technicolor dream coat. 156 00:08:38,140 --> 00:08:39,700 I don't think I ever saw that. 157 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:42,940 I just remember his purple socks. 158 00:08:42,940 --> 00:08:50,220 Well, Olive Osmond, Wayne's mother, developed some concerns about Joyce. 159 00:08:50,220 --> 00:08:55,420 I never could find out what, but she insisted that Wayne move on. 160 00:08:55,420 --> 00:08:56,420 Really? 161 00:08:56,420 --> 00:08:57,420 Yep. 162 00:08:57,420 --> 00:09:02,220 She said that she would marry Wayne one day and was completely devastated when she learned 163 00:09:02,220 --> 00:09:05,180 that he had become engaged to another woman. 164 00:09:05,180 --> 00:09:07,180 That's too bad. 165 00:09:07,180 --> 00:09:08,180 Yeah. 166 00:09:08,180 --> 00:09:13,600 Joyce eventually moved on and began working on her doctorate at Brigham Young, where she 167 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,920 met a young man by the name of Kirk Anderson. 168 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:23,180 The couple began dating, but being a devout Mormon, Kirk felt really guilty about taking 169 00:09:23,180 --> 00:09:28,740 Joyce's virginity and confessed to the church about his ongoing relationship with her. 170 00:09:28,740 --> 00:09:36,280 Church elders advised Kirk to end the relationship and because he was a devout Mormon, he complied. 171 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,640 Joyce wasn't going for it though. 172 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:44,460 After Kirk broke up with her, Beth, she went fatal attraction on Kirk and began stalking 173 00:09:44,460 --> 00:09:45,460 him. 174 00:09:45,460 --> 00:09:46,460 Oh no. 175 00:09:46,460 --> 00:09:47,460 Oh yes. 176 00:09:47,460 --> 00:09:53,860 In later interviews, Joyce stated that Kirk had asked her to marry him, but his church 177 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:57,260 did not approve because she was not a Mormon. 178 00:09:57,260 --> 00:09:59,660 Oh, that's too bad. 179 00:09:59,660 --> 00:10:05,820 After several run-ins with Joyce in California and Oregon, Kirk left for a two-year mission 180 00:10:05,820 --> 00:10:07,660 trip overseas in England. 181 00:10:07,660 --> 00:10:14,300 Beth, what would you do if you had to move frequently when some wackadoodle keeps reappearing 182 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:15,580 and you're not looking for them? 183 00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:16,580 They just show up. 184 00:10:16,580 --> 00:10:17,580 What would you do? 185 00:10:17,580 --> 00:10:19,660 I probably would go to the police. 186 00:10:19,660 --> 00:10:21,880 I would think so as well. 187 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:28,300 That didn't stop Joyce though, because after Kirk left for his two-year mission trip overseas 188 00:10:28,300 --> 00:10:34,740 in England, Joyce hired a private investigator to track him down, of course, because he had 189 00:10:34,740 --> 00:10:36,400 disappeared again. 190 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,940 After about a year and a half, the PI tracked him down in Yule, England, where Kirk was 191 00:10:41,940 --> 00:10:46,140 working for a local church going door to door to profess his faith. 192 00:10:46,140 --> 00:10:47,140 Wow. 193 00:10:47,140 --> 00:10:48,140 Yeah. 194 00:10:48,140 --> 00:10:50,900 Have you ever had anybody knock on your door to talk about their faith? 195 00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:51,900 I have. 196 00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,500 I have too, but certainly not lately. 197 00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:55,900 No, not lately. 198 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:58,420 Okay, so let's stop here for just a second. 199 00:10:58,420 --> 00:11:04,260 How much money do you think Joyce poured into private investigator fees for him to be on 200 00:11:04,260 --> 00:11:05,900 this case for 18 months? 201 00:11:05,900 --> 00:11:06,900 A hundred thousand? 202 00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,100 I don't know. 203 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:09,660 Just wanted to throw that out there. 204 00:11:09,660 --> 00:11:12,460 I thought you had an answer for me. 205 00:11:12,460 --> 00:11:13,660 Nope, not this time. 206 00:11:13,660 --> 00:11:14,660 All right. 207 00:11:14,660 --> 00:11:22,220 How psycho do you have to be to still hold an obsession with someone a year and a half 208 00:11:22,220 --> 00:11:24,420 after you break up? 209 00:11:24,420 --> 00:11:25,420 Very. 210 00:11:25,420 --> 00:11:27,340 That's crazy. 211 00:11:27,340 --> 00:11:28,380 That is crazy. 212 00:11:28,380 --> 00:11:30,020 So guess what Joyce did next? 213 00:11:30,020 --> 00:11:31,860 I can't even imagine. 214 00:11:31,860 --> 00:11:38,680 Well, she placed an ad in the newspaper to hire two people to assist her and her friend 215 00:11:38,680 --> 00:11:42,300 Keith May in rescuing somebody from a cult. 216 00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:50,820 So she had it in her head that Kirk was in a cult because he belonged to the Mormon faith. 217 00:11:50,820 --> 00:11:58,500 So she eventually hired Gil Parker, who was a bodyguard and Jackson Shaw, a pilot to fly 218 00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:02,860 her over to England when Joyce's PI had located Kirk. 219 00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:04,820 That is just something. 220 00:12:04,820 --> 00:12:11,980 Joyce and Keith hopped onto a flight to Yule, England to reunite with a 21 year old Kirk 221 00:12:11,980 --> 00:12:14,580 who was doing his missionary work overseas. 222 00:12:14,580 --> 00:12:20,060 I'll just add that Joyce was somewhere around the age of 28 at this point. 223 00:12:20,060 --> 00:12:22,980 So she was a little bit older than him. 224 00:12:22,980 --> 00:12:29,420 According to Gil Parker, while they were in the hotel, he and Jackson Shaw observed Joyce 225 00:12:29,420 --> 00:12:36,320 and Keith pulling out a gun, some chloroform, a microphone and listening devices. 226 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:37,320 That's crazy. 227 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:43,700 Yeah, well, they thought so too, because they immediately refused any further involvement 228 00:12:43,700 --> 00:12:47,420 and they left Joyce and Keith to hatch their own plan. 229 00:12:47,420 --> 00:12:52,980 Keith was to pose as someone who was interested in converting to Mormonism. 230 00:12:52,980 --> 00:12:54,660 This is getting really crazy. 231 00:12:54,660 --> 00:12:55,660 It is. 232 00:12:55,660 --> 00:12:56,660 Oh Beth, it gets crazier. 233 00:12:56,660 --> 00:12:58,140 You're not even going to believe it. 234 00:12:58,140 --> 00:12:59,140 Does it? 235 00:12:59,140 --> 00:13:00,140 Oh yes. 236 00:13:00,140 --> 00:13:02,380 This is a really neat case. 237 00:13:02,380 --> 00:13:07,700 Well, I'll tell you a little bit more of what I learned after I did my research because 238 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:12,580 I'm going to share something with you and our listeners that I will highly encourage 239 00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:15,740 you all to follow up on, but I'm not there yet. 240 00:13:15,740 --> 00:13:19,180 You tease you. 241 00:13:19,180 --> 00:13:26,260 Well in September of 1977, once they reached the village, Keith approached Kirk and after 242 00:13:26,260 --> 00:13:33,220 chatting with him for a while, Keith pulled out a fake gun and forced Kirk into his car 243 00:13:33,220 --> 00:13:37,540 where Joyce was waiting for him hidden under a blanket. 244 00:13:37,540 --> 00:13:40,340 My gosh, child's play. 245 00:13:40,340 --> 00:13:41,340 Right? 246 00:13:41,340 --> 00:13:43,940 And I'm telling you, this is like fatal attraction here. 247 00:13:43,940 --> 00:13:45,180 It is. 248 00:13:45,180 --> 00:13:50,420 Once Kirk was placed into the car, Joyce used chloroform to sedate him. 249 00:13:50,420 --> 00:13:57,220 Keith then drove the couple out to a 17th century cottage in Devon, England. 250 00:13:57,220 --> 00:14:01,420 And that was probably somewhere around 250 miles away. 251 00:14:01,420 --> 00:14:03,180 Did you, you said Devon? 252 00:14:03,180 --> 00:14:04,700 Devon, England. 253 00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,300 That's where our ancestors are from. 254 00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:08,300 What? 255 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:09,300 Yes. 256 00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:10,300 Wow. 257 00:14:10,300 --> 00:14:14,820 Look back in that family tree book that dad put together for us. 258 00:14:14,820 --> 00:14:16,940 Do you still have it? 259 00:14:16,940 --> 00:14:20,980 I do and I remember that cause I can see his handwriting. 260 00:14:20,980 --> 00:14:22,860 Yeah, it's all in Devon. 261 00:14:22,860 --> 00:14:24,660 Oh my goodness. 262 00:14:24,660 --> 00:14:25,660 Holy cow. 263 00:14:25,660 --> 00:14:27,220 No wonder I was drawn to this case. 264 00:14:27,220 --> 00:14:28,220 All right. 265 00:14:28,220 --> 00:14:32,060 There are two accounts of what happened next, Beth. 266 00:14:32,060 --> 00:14:35,980 Don't forget we have Madam Mayhem and Manacled Mormon. 267 00:14:35,980 --> 00:14:36,980 Okay. 268 00:14:36,980 --> 00:14:43,700 Kirk found himself restrained, spread eagle to the bedposts in mink lined handcuffs when 269 00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:45,420 he woke up from that chloroform. 270 00:14:45,420 --> 00:14:47,340 Oh, that's really crazy. 271 00:14:47,340 --> 00:14:48,340 That's pretty kinky. 272 00:14:48,340 --> 00:14:49,340 It is. 273 00:14:49,340 --> 00:14:51,220 What is that movie with that lady? 274 00:14:51,220 --> 00:14:52,220 Misery. 275 00:14:52,220 --> 00:14:53,220 Yes. 276 00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:54,220 Yeah. 277 00:14:54,220 --> 00:14:55,220 So, okay. 278 00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:56,220 This is a misery moment. 279 00:14:56,220 --> 00:15:00,580 It's just a mixture of a misery and a fatal attraction here. 280 00:15:00,580 --> 00:15:01,580 Yes. 281 00:15:01,580 --> 00:15:02,580 All right. 282 00:15:02,580 --> 00:15:08,220 Court records showed later that Kirk had made a statement that Joyce had torn off his pajamas 283 00:15:08,220 --> 00:15:14,260 from his body and proceeded to have intercourse with him, which upset him greatly because he 284 00:15:14,260 --> 00:15:16,220 did not want it to happen. 285 00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:18,540 Oh my gosh. 286 00:15:18,540 --> 00:15:23,820 Joyce's account on the other hand is that before Kirk was brought to the cottage, she 287 00:15:23,820 --> 00:15:29,740 stocked the fridge with his favorite foods and read the book, The Joy of Sex, in order 288 00:15:29,740 --> 00:15:33,380 to prepare for their mutually planned rendezvous. 289 00:15:33,380 --> 00:15:39,820 While they were at the cottage, Joyce stated that they spent three days reuniting and rekindling 290 00:15:39,820 --> 00:15:43,220 their relationship through consensual sex. 291 00:15:43,220 --> 00:15:44,700 What are your thoughts on that? 292 00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:45,700 What do you think? 293 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:50,660 I think this whole case seems like so far, and I know we've got a long ways to go yet. 294 00:15:50,660 --> 00:15:52,140 This is just unbelievable. 295 00:15:52,140 --> 00:15:53,380 Yep. 296 00:15:53,380 --> 00:15:54,700 This is getting crazier. 297 00:15:54,700 --> 00:15:57,140 Oh boy, but just wait. 298 00:15:57,140 --> 00:16:03,260 Regardless of which story is correct, Kirk stated that he only escaped after promising 299 00:16:03,260 --> 00:16:04,900 to marry Joyce. 300 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:09,740 And after earning her trust, Joyce eventually unhandcuffed him from the bed, and that's 301 00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:11,260 when Kirk bolted. 302 00:16:11,260 --> 00:16:14,100 So I guess my question here is where's Keith in all of this? 303 00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:17,780 Did he just drop them off at the cottage and off he went? 304 00:16:17,780 --> 00:16:20,460 I guess he probably could have gone back to the hotel. 305 00:16:20,460 --> 00:16:21,900 That's what I'm guessing. 306 00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:22,900 Okay. 307 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,860 Well, Kirk immediately went to the police where he stated that for three days, Joyce 308 00:16:27,860 --> 00:16:32,820 held him captive and repeatedly raped him while he was chained to the bed. 309 00:16:32,820 --> 00:16:36,860 And it was her desire to become pregnant to have his child. 310 00:16:36,860 --> 00:16:37,860 Weird. 311 00:16:37,860 --> 00:16:41,900 As a side note though, Joyce did say during one of her interviews that she had already 312 00:16:41,900 --> 00:16:46,980 become pregnant by Kirk when they first began dating, but she had miscarried their baby. 313 00:16:46,980 --> 00:16:47,980 Hmm. 314 00:16:47,980 --> 00:16:48,980 Could be a lie. 315 00:16:48,980 --> 00:16:49,980 I don't know. 316 00:16:49,980 --> 00:16:50,980 We'll never know. 317 00:16:50,980 --> 00:16:51,980 No, we won't. 318 00:16:51,980 --> 00:16:59,020 Joyce and Keith were quickly arrested, but at this point it was a he said, she said situation. 319 00:16:59,020 --> 00:17:05,900 While she was in custody, Joyce held a handwritten note up to onlookers while she was in the 320 00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:08,380 police vehicle saying that she was innocent. 321 00:17:08,380 --> 00:17:12,860 So she basically held it up to the window through the bars and was telling the world 322 00:17:12,860 --> 00:17:14,380 that she was innocent. 323 00:17:14,380 --> 00:17:18,620 And we know Kirk's side of the story here, but Joyce had her own. 324 00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:23,180 She had told authorities that Kirk came to the cottage on his own free will. 325 00:17:23,180 --> 00:17:29,740 She insisted that any sexual relations during that time were completely consensual, including 326 00:17:29,740 --> 00:17:31,900 his being tied to the bed. 327 00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:32,900 Right. 328 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:39,220 Joyce mentioned how Kirk was impotent upon arrival because of his religious reservations, 329 00:17:39,220 --> 00:17:45,300 but soon she began chanting in prayer and with him being tied to the bed, he became 330 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:46,300 aroused. 331 00:17:46,300 --> 00:17:52,680 However, she did not receive any sexual pleasure from their relations because she was too busy 332 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,260 trying to deprogram him and satisfy his sexual desires. 333 00:17:57,260 --> 00:18:02,940 Joyce stated that Kirk was brainwashed by a dominant mother who was overprotective, 334 00:18:02,940 --> 00:18:06,980 plus the Mormon church who frowned upon sexual behaviors. 335 00:18:06,980 --> 00:18:13,180 And she went on to say that she was simply trying to deprogram him from their cult religion. 336 00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:14,700 Okay, pause. 337 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:16,820 Isn't that admitting guilt right there? 338 00:18:16,820 --> 00:18:18,820 She was trying to deprogram him. 339 00:18:18,820 --> 00:18:21,420 So does it sound like he was coming on his own? 340 00:18:21,420 --> 00:18:23,220 No, not at all. 341 00:18:23,220 --> 00:18:26,780 The whole thing is, is just so odd. 342 00:18:26,780 --> 00:18:31,800 Like to have a high IQ, is that showing that she is completely nuts? 343 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:36,140 Or is that saying, you know, like it just, it doesn't make sense for somebody with a 344 00:18:36,140 --> 00:18:38,980 high IQ to be doing something like this. 345 00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:46,620 I think so, Beth, a lot of these people that we've covered do have high IQs and sometimes 346 00:18:46,620 --> 00:18:52,780 their mindsets are very literal or in this case, I'm going to say she's got that background 347 00:18:52,780 --> 00:18:53,780 in theater. 348 00:18:53,780 --> 00:18:56,500 So she's very dramatic to me. 349 00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,580 Oh, yes. 350 00:18:58,580 --> 00:18:59,580 Yeah. 351 00:18:59,580 --> 00:19:06,700 Well, Joyce proceeded to insist that she was desirable by giving police her body measurements 352 00:19:06,700 --> 00:19:09,720 and informing them that she was Miss Wyoming. 353 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,100 She wanted to remind them that she was in the spotlight and she did not have to work 354 00:19:14,100 --> 00:19:15,900 very hard to get any man. 355 00:19:15,900 --> 00:19:19,820 I'm sure this was all impressive, but the police were not going for it. 356 00:19:19,820 --> 00:19:24,620 Joyce was charged with false imprisonment and being in possession of a firearm. 357 00:19:24,620 --> 00:19:27,540 She was not, however, charged with rape. 358 00:19:27,540 --> 00:19:28,540 Any guesses why? 359 00:19:28,540 --> 00:19:30,860 Well, because she said he was impotent. 360 00:19:30,860 --> 00:19:31,860 Okay. 361 00:19:31,860 --> 00:19:33,180 That's a good guess. 362 00:19:33,180 --> 00:19:40,620 Well, in 1977, Beth, England did not have any laws in place to charge a woman of raping 363 00:19:40,620 --> 00:19:41,620 a man. 364 00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:49,220 Oh, in addition, police compared Kirk's size against Joyce and they were a little bit skeptical 365 00:19:49,220 --> 00:19:55,980 that she could overpower a six foot five man weighing 245 pounds. 366 00:19:55,980 --> 00:20:00,220 Remember she was a former beauty queen and she did state she would never have to resort 367 00:20:00,220 --> 00:20:02,500 to these accusations to get a man. 368 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:09,580 So I can see that in a way and Kirk was a pretty big guy, but we're leaving out the 369 00:20:09,580 --> 00:20:12,620 part that Keith Mays was there to help her. 370 00:20:12,620 --> 00:20:13,620 Yeah. 371 00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:19,420 So in 2017, I wanted to just kind of bring up this report because the US Bureau of Justice 372 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:27,180 Statistics found that actual cases of let's call them reverse reports, Beth, they contradict 373 00:20:27,180 --> 00:20:31,580 social stigmas where female sexual predators are rare. 374 00:20:31,580 --> 00:20:38,460 In fact, a study was conducted where its findings stated that 43% of college and high school 375 00:20:38,460 --> 00:20:44,980 aged boys were sexually coerced into sexual relations brought on by females. 376 00:20:44,980 --> 00:20:46,260 What do you think of that? 377 00:20:46,260 --> 00:20:47,500 That's a high statistic. 378 00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:48,500 I think so too. 379 00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:50,900 Now this is back in 2017. 380 00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:53,380 So how many years have already gone by? 381 00:20:53,380 --> 00:20:58,200 But back in the day, of course, you would say that it would be rare for a woman to take 382 00:20:58,200 --> 00:20:59,540 advantage of a man. 383 00:20:59,540 --> 00:21:01,100 Yes, for sure. 384 00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:08,620 Well, in March of 1978, this case became an instant public spectacle in the news. 385 00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:17,260 Joyce sold her story to the local tabloid for 40,000 pounds or 42,000 US dollars and 386 00:21:17,260 --> 00:21:20,300 almost 62,000 Canadian dollars. 387 00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:21,300 That's a lot. 388 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:22,300 It is. 389 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:24,980 But tabloids were known to pay an awful lot. 390 00:21:24,980 --> 00:21:25,980 Yes. 391 00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:32,780 The tabloids immediately dubbed her as Madame Mayhem, like I had mentioned, and Kirk, the 392 00:21:32,780 --> 00:21:34,220 manacled Mormon. 393 00:21:34,220 --> 00:21:37,780 And this case became an instant sensation in England. 394 00:21:37,780 --> 00:21:38,780 Wow. 395 00:21:38,780 --> 00:21:42,140 I'm going to read up a little bit more about this. 396 00:21:42,140 --> 00:21:44,820 I'm going to give you a little shortcut in just a little bit. 397 00:21:44,820 --> 00:21:46,580 You don't have to read up on it. 398 00:21:46,580 --> 00:21:47,580 Okay. 399 00:21:47,580 --> 00:21:51,500 It takes too much time. 400 00:21:51,500 --> 00:21:56,860 Joyce's side of the story was that Kirk feared excommunication from the church and made the 401 00:21:56,860 --> 00:22:00,300 entire story up to cover his tracks. 402 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:03,420 This entire incident became quite amusing. 403 00:22:03,420 --> 00:22:08,340 According to public opinion, Joyce was quoted as saying that she never understood why the 404 00:22:08,340 --> 00:22:11,420 public was so interested in her love life. 405 00:22:11,420 --> 00:22:16,420 And three months after their arrest, Joyce and Keith were released on bail. 406 00:22:16,420 --> 00:22:20,820 According to her bail agreement, Joyce was required to live with her parents who had 407 00:22:20,820 --> 00:22:24,460 traveled over to the UK during her arrest. 408 00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:30,620 And due to her instant celebrity status, Joyce began hobnobbing with other celebrities. 409 00:22:30,620 --> 00:22:36,340 She was seen out with Keith Moon, the drummer of a little band called The Who. 410 00:22:36,340 --> 00:22:37,860 Did you follow them, Beth? 411 00:22:37,860 --> 00:22:38,860 No. 412 00:22:38,860 --> 00:22:39,860 Not your style of music? 413 00:22:39,860 --> 00:22:40,860 No, definitely not. 414 00:22:40,860 --> 00:22:41,860 Bee Gees, Abba. 415 00:22:41,860 --> 00:22:45,820 I really like the Bee Gees. 416 00:22:45,820 --> 00:22:46,820 Well guess what? 417 00:22:46,820 --> 00:22:47,820 What? 418 00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:54,060 Joyce was also seen at same events as Rolling Stones, The Bee Gees, and Joan Collins. 419 00:22:54,060 --> 00:22:55,060 Oh. 420 00:22:55,060 --> 00:22:56,060 Yeah. 421 00:22:56,060 --> 00:23:01,420 Although Joan wasn't impressed with Joyce's company because at some function, Joyce seemed 422 00:23:01,420 --> 00:23:06,420 to outshine her at the public event because of the story going on. 423 00:23:06,420 --> 00:23:07,420 Yeah. 424 00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:09,580 And I could see that Joan wouldn't like that. 425 00:23:09,580 --> 00:23:10,580 Yup. 426 00:23:10,580 --> 00:23:11,580 Me too. 427 00:23:11,580 --> 00:23:16,660 Joyce was also trying to sell her story to filmmakers, but things actually came to a 428 00:23:16,660 --> 00:23:17,660 stall. 429 00:23:17,660 --> 00:23:19,260 Do you have any ideas what happened next? 430 00:23:19,260 --> 00:23:21,100 No, not at all. 431 00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:25,700 Well, Joyce and Keith decided it was time to skip town before the trial. 432 00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:26,700 Together? 433 00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:27,700 Yeah. 434 00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:33,460 Well, Keith came over to help her abduct, I guess abduct is a good word, help her abduct 435 00:23:33,460 --> 00:23:35,700 Kirk and take her to the cottage. 436 00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:36,700 Mm-hmm. 437 00:23:36,700 --> 00:23:37,700 All right. 438 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:42,860 So Joyce and Keith decided that it was time to skip town before the trial because a potential 439 00:23:42,860 --> 00:23:49,260 ex-boyfriend approached the tabloids with several soft porn photographs that he had 440 00:23:49,260 --> 00:23:51,820 taken while he and Joyce were together. 441 00:23:51,820 --> 00:23:57,660 Now I'm going to tell you, I did see some of them and again, to me, they were tasteful. 442 00:23:57,660 --> 00:24:01,780 Joyce was a beautiful young woman, nothing wrong with them, but of course that's going 443 00:24:01,780 --> 00:24:04,140 to add scandal to the story. 444 00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:09,540 And Joyce knew that this would cause harm to her defense, so she disguised herself as 445 00:24:09,540 --> 00:24:10,620 a nun. 446 00:24:10,620 --> 00:24:16,580 And I don't know if Keith disguised himself as a nun as well, but several articles did 447 00:24:16,580 --> 00:24:21,580 say that he disguised himself in the same manner as her and we'll just go with that. 448 00:24:21,580 --> 00:24:24,220 This case keeps getting crazier and crazier. 449 00:24:24,220 --> 00:24:27,740 Well, what do you think happened next? 450 00:24:27,740 --> 00:24:32,420 I'll let you take that sip of coffee out of your cute little owl mug because I will do 451 00:24:32,420 --> 00:24:35,540 the same while you tell me what you think happened next. 452 00:24:35,540 --> 00:24:40,540 Gosh, I can't even think what's going to happen next because it's all happened already. 453 00:24:40,540 --> 00:24:47,700 Okay, well, absolutely nothing happened. 454 00:24:47,700 --> 00:24:52,300 Police decided not to pursue the fugitives and dropped all charges. 455 00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:56,220 Life went on for the next seven years for all parties. 456 00:24:56,220 --> 00:24:57,220 That's ridiculous. 457 00:24:57,220 --> 00:24:58,220 Right? 458 00:24:58,220 --> 00:24:59,220 Yeah. 459 00:24:59,220 --> 00:25:00,220 Yeah. 460 00:25:00,220 --> 00:25:07,340 At this point, I'm going to say that Joyce is in desperate need of mental health assessments 461 00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:15,700 because in 1984, Beth, she tracked Kirk down again in Salt Lake City, Utah, where she basically 462 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:19,380 picked up where she left off and began stalking him again. 463 00:25:19,380 --> 00:25:23,540 For goodness sakes, you think of that seven year period, she would have cooled off and 464 00:25:23,540 --> 00:25:25,780 found another man to go after. 465 00:25:25,780 --> 00:25:27,740 That is what I'm saying. 466 00:25:27,740 --> 00:25:31,220 How can you be so obsessed with somebody that long? 467 00:25:31,220 --> 00:25:32,220 Move on. 468 00:25:32,220 --> 00:25:34,660 I wonder what she did for those seven years. 469 00:25:34,660 --> 00:25:35,660 I don't know. 470 00:25:35,660 --> 00:25:37,060 I couldn't find very much. 471 00:25:37,060 --> 00:25:40,220 Well, Kirk would have nothing to do with her. 472 00:25:40,220 --> 00:25:45,700 And again, Joyce was arrested at the Salt Lake City Airport where she was sitting in 473 00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:47,900 her car, just watching. 474 00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:48,900 All right. 475 00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:54,460 For a second time, this turned into a he said, she said situation where Kirk stated that 476 00:25:54,460 --> 00:25:58,500 Joyce was stalking his daily activities at the airport. 477 00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:04,000 Joyce innocently said that she happened to be passing through the Salt Lake City Airport 478 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,460 where Kirk happened to be working at the time. 479 00:26:07,460 --> 00:26:13,300 Upon her arrest, the police searched Joyce's vehicle and found the following items in her 480 00:26:13,300 --> 00:26:19,780 trunk, a rope, some handcuffs and a notebook documenting Kirk's daily activities. 481 00:26:19,780 --> 00:26:22,940 Geez, that's a stalker for sure. 482 00:26:22,940 --> 00:26:23,940 Absolutely. 483 00:26:23,940 --> 00:26:31,180 Now we're going to move on to another story that eventually appeared in the news in 2008. 484 00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:33,740 Just a little side note, a little shift. 485 00:26:33,740 --> 00:26:34,740 Same character though. 486 00:26:34,740 --> 00:26:35,740 Let's say that. 487 00:26:35,740 --> 00:26:36,740 Okay. 488 00:26:36,740 --> 00:26:41,300 Joyce had hired a South Korean company to clone her dead dog, Booger. 489 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:42,300 That's crazy. 490 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:43,300 And so is the name. 491 00:26:43,300 --> 00:26:49,820 In an interview I found from the Denver Post, Joyce stated that she had her dog's tissue 492 00:26:49,820 --> 00:26:56,340 frozen after he died and hoped that this story would influence people in a positive way as 493 00:26:56,340 --> 00:27:01,220 opposed to the negative publicity that she received in the 1970s. 494 00:27:01,220 --> 00:27:06,660 She stated that she thought cloning puppies would convince people to see her in a different 495 00:27:06,660 --> 00:27:12,940 light by doing something good as opposed to just concentrating on her celebrity status. 496 00:27:12,940 --> 00:27:16,180 Because you know, she did really kind of beef up the story herself. 497 00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:18,260 She did involve the tabloids. 498 00:27:18,260 --> 00:27:19,260 Yeah. 499 00:27:19,260 --> 00:27:26,460 However, it was the tabloids that recognized her specifically from this news story and 500 00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:32,060 put the Manicold Mormon, Madame Mayhem story right back in the spotlight. 501 00:27:32,060 --> 00:27:36,500 Well, I think it's better to bring it back out in the spotlight so that they can get 502 00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,660 to the bottom of what's going on. 503 00:27:38,660 --> 00:27:39,660 Uh-huh. 504 00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:45,340 Well, the Korean firm took the dog's skin cells and successfully produced a litter of 505 00:27:45,340 --> 00:27:46,340 puppies. 506 00:27:46,340 --> 00:27:47,340 Can you believe that? 507 00:27:47,340 --> 00:27:50,740 No, that's gross. 508 00:27:50,740 --> 00:27:55,380 Joyce named every one of the puppies after herself and the Korean scientists that she 509 00:27:55,380 --> 00:27:56,380 had hired. 510 00:27:56,380 --> 00:27:57,380 What do you think of that? 511 00:27:57,380 --> 00:27:59,420 Again, very strange. 512 00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:02,660 Yeah, she's, I think she's a little out there. 513 00:28:02,660 --> 00:28:03,660 Very egocentric. 514 00:28:03,660 --> 00:28:05,660 How is that word? 515 00:28:05,660 --> 00:28:06,660 Egocentrical? 516 00:28:06,660 --> 00:28:07,660 Yeah, absolutely. 517 00:28:07,660 --> 00:28:08,980 Yeah, you have a point. 518 00:28:08,980 --> 00:28:14,340 Well, sadly, three of the puppies ended up in a dog shelter and two had to be euthanized 519 00:28:14,340 --> 00:28:17,380 due to health and behavioral issues. 520 00:28:17,380 --> 00:28:22,860 Animal control had been called numerous times on Joyce's treatment of the animals where 521 00:28:22,860 --> 00:28:27,940 they had been found living in crates and in poor living conditions in general. 522 00:28:27,940 --> 00:28:30,380 So I know you're not much of a dog person, Beth, but... 523 00:28:30,380 --> 00:28:32,860 Well, I'm a very tiny dog lover. 524 00:28:32,860 --> 00:28:36,420 I love my little dogs. 525 00:28:36,420 --> 00:28:38,100 And I think that's cruel. 526 00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:39,100 That's sad. 527 00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:40,100 That breaks my heart. 528 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:41,100 It does. 529 00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:42,100 Those poor animals. 530 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:46,340 I know you've seen those commercials where they're behind the sad music. 531 00:28:46,340 --> 00:28:47,500 Yes. 532 00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:51,020 I can hardly look at them because it's just so devastating. 533 00:28:51,020 --> 00:28:52,020 It is. 534 00:28:52,020 --> 00:28:59,140 In 2009, filmmaker Errol Morris approached Joyce in the hopes of making a movie based 535 00:28:59,140 --> 00:29:06,140 on the Manicold Mormon case and eventually released a documentary in 2010 called Tabloid, 536 00:29:06,140 --> 00:29:08,500 which gives an account of past events. 537 00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:10,780 So I'm going to stop right there for just a second. 538 00:29:10,780 --> 00:29:14,020 This is where I'm telling you, you do not have to research the case. 539 00:29:14,020 --> 00:29:17,900 To our listeners, there is that movie out on the internet. 540 00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:19,540 It is not on Netflix. 541 00:29:19,540 --> 00:29:21,420 It is not on Amazon Prime. 542 00:29:21,420 --> 00:29:24,740 But I Googled it yesterday and I watched it. 543 00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:26,960 It was really, really good. 544 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:28,800 And was it on this whole story? 545 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:29,840 It sure was. 546 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:34,460 It actually added a lot of content that is not what I'm telling you today. 547 00:29:34,460 --> 00:29:40,380 And that's why I encourage everybody to watch this because Joyce is rather convincing in 548 00:29:40,380 --> 00:29:41,380 my opinion. 549 00:29:41,380 --> 00:29:42,380 And it really does. 550 00:29:42,380 --> 00:29:47,520 It dives a little deeper into the entire situation. 551 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,460 So I absolutely recommend you all going to look for that. 552 00:29:51,460 --> 00:29:54,280 It'll probably fill in a lot of the holes. 553 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:55,280 I'll leave it at that. 554 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,060 Well, I think I'm going to look at that for this evening. 555 00:29:58,060 --> 00:30:00,260 Yeah, it's about an hour and a half long. 556 00:30:00,260 --> 00:30:01,900 It's really, really good. 557 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:03,660 Remember though, Joyce is very theatrical. 558 00:30:03,660 --> 00:30:05,740 I'll just leave it at that. 559 00:30:05,740 --> 00:30:06,740 Okay. 560 00:30:06,740 --> 00:30:12,540 On a flip side, Joyce believed that this film made her out to look like a sexual predator. 561 00:30:12,540 --> 00:30:20,100 And in 2016, she sued the filmmakers for defamation of character, invasion of privacy, and fraud. 562 00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:24,960 I don't know if I agree with that though, because I think they did a really good job 563 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,460 on telling the story. 564 00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:28,460 I don't know. 565 00:30:28,460 --> 00:30:29,460 Just watch for yourself. 566 00:30:29,460 --> 00:30:30,460 I will. 567 00:30:30,460 --> 00:30:36,460 In her lawsuit, Joyce said that the documentary made her out to be crazy and a prostitute. 568 00:30:36,460 --> 00:30:38,540 Yeah, a little bit. 569 00:30:38,540 --> 00:30:43,820 Joyce also claimed that the filmmaker stole a manuscript from her that she had planned 570 00:30:43,820 --> 00:30:46,580 to turn into a personal memoir. 571 00:30:46,580 --> 00:30:49,060 And I'm going to kind of go back to that movie. 572 00:30:49,060 --> 00:30:52,300 She is telling a story at the beginning of the movie. 573 00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:57,500 And I'm going to say that was probably her personal memoir that she planned to have published. 574 00:30:57,500 --> 00:30:58,500 I don't know. 575 00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:07,620 Errol Morris did offer Joyce a settlement out of court for $65,000, but Joyce refused, 576 00:31:07,620 --> 00:31:10,780 stating that he made millions off of this film. 577 00:31:10,780 --> 00:31:13,700 So what happens when you refuse an offer? 578 00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:14,860 You go to court. 579 00:31:14,860 --> 00:31:19,780 The judge did not rule in her favor because filmmakers were able to produce a written 580 00:31:19,780 --> 00:31:23,660 document showing her signature on a release form. 581 00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:27,860 Lawyers also argued for freedom of speech rights and they won. 582 00:31:27,860 --> 00:31:28,860 Good. 583 00:31:28,860 --> 00:31:29,860 Yeah. 584 00:31:29,860 --> 00:31:32,900 So this goes to show you that the filmmakers obviously had experience in how to cover their 585 00:31:32,900 --> 00:31:34,700 backs, eh? 586 00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:35,700 Yes. 587 00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:43,820 Jumping up to June 17th of 2019, Joyce was in her late sixties and homeless, living out 588 00:31:43,820 --> 00:31:45,060 of her car. 589 00:31:45,060 --> 00:31:51,180 She was once again arrested for a hit and run where she killed a 91 year old Holocaust 590 00:31:51,180 --> 00:31:52,180 survivor. 591 00:31:52,180 --> 00:31:53,740 Oh, that's terrible. 592 00:31:53,740 --> 00:31:54,740 Yes. 593 00:31:54,740 --> 00:32:04,100 At 5 17 a.m. on June 17th of 2019, video surveillance at a local pizza hut where Joyce frequented 594 00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:11,460 captured her striking Genadie Balotsky with her vehicle while he was out walking his dog 595 00:32:11,460 --> 00:32:15,220 in the San Fernando Valley, just outside of Los Angeles. 596 00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:17,180 Oh, that's sad. 597 00:32:17,180 --> 00:32:18,180 Yeah. 598 00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:23,540 Genadie was born in the Ukraine where his family fled the Nazi invasion in the Soviet 599 00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:26,220 Union back in 1941. 600 00:32:26,220 --> 00:32:32,340 Well two days later, police located her vehicle and were about to go question her about this 601 00:32:32,340 --> 00:32:33,660 hit and run. 602 00:32:33,660 --> 00:32:36,700 However, Joyce did not see them coming. 603 00:32:36,700 --> 00:32:41,700 As she got out of her vehicle, she proceeded to urinate in public as the police officers 604 00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:42,700 approached her. 605 00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:43,700 What? 606 00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:46,100 I mean, she's living in her car, Beth. 607 00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:48,300 It's really to me that's very sad. 608 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:50,860 She has just reached a sad part of her life. 609 00:32:50,860 --> 00:32:53,260 Oh, that is just horrifying. 610 00:32:53,260 --> 00:32:54,260 Yeah. 611 00:32:54,260 --> 00:32:59,060 Well, Joyce was arrested based on numerous leads from tips that were called in. 612 00:32:59,060 --> 00:33:00,060 Good. 613 00:33:00,060 --> 00:33:05,660 She denied all charges and stated that she was being held against her will by the police. 614 00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:11,220 I mean, Beth, who isn't being held against their will by the police when they're arrested? 615 00:33:11,220 --> 00:33:12,220 True. 616 00:33:12,220 --> 00:33:17,140 She was charged with manslaughter, assault with a deadly weapon, a hit and run resulting 617 00:33:17,140 --> 00:33:19,220 in death and gross negligence. 618 00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:21,020 Well, that's good. 619 00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:22,020 Yeah. 620 00:33:22,020 --> 00:33:24,720 She got away with Kirk, got off with that. 621 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:28,020 So I'm glad she managed to get some sort of charges. 622 00:33:28,020 --> 00:33:29,020 Yeah. 623 00:33:29,020 --> 00:33:32,020 I mean, she got arrested, but what will happen from here? 624 00:33:32,020 --> 00:33:33,020 We don't know. 625 00:33:33,020 --> 00:33:38,980 The public defender filed a motion in court not to proceed with a trial due to Joyce's 626 00:33:38,980 --> 00:33:40,740 mental conditions. 627 00:33:40,740 --> 00:33:47,340 Court documents stated that Joyce was unfit to stand trial and the judge ordered an evaluation. 628 00:33:47,340 --> 00:33:53,820 Joyce was found by psychiatrists to be unfit to stand trial and was never charged in Genedy's 629 00:33:53,820 --> 00:33:54,820 death. 630 00:33:54,820 --> 00:33:55,820 Oh my gosh. 631 00:33:55,820 --> 00:33:57,200 Now, come on. 632 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,260 She was admitted to a mental health facility for treatment where she remains today. 633 00:34:02,260 --> 00:34:03,260 What? 634 00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:04,260 Yep. 635 00:34:04,260 --> 00:34:11,340 When asked in recent years about what happened in 1977, Joyce simply stated that, quote, 636 00:34:11,340 --> 00:34:15,060 this was the greatest love story ever told, end quote. 637 00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:20,220 So there you have it, Beth, the story of Madam Mayhem versus the Manacled Mormon. 638 00:34:20,220 --> 00:34:22,940 And whose story do you most likely believe at this point? 639 00:34:22,940 --> 00:34:23,940 The Manacled Mormon. 640 00:34:23,940 --> 00:34:28,580 I say go watch that movie and you might be swayed a little bit. 641 00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:29,940 I mean, we'll never know. 642 00:34:29,940 --> 00:34:31,780 This was just crazy. 643 00:34:31,780 --> 00:34:33,780 It was a pretty interesting story. 644 00:34:33,780 --> 00:34:36,900 So I'm glad that it was put on the suggestion list. 645 00:34:36,900 --> 00:34:37,900 Yes. 646 00:34:37,900 --> 00:34:43,540 I will say that Joyce really seemed to enjoy keeping this story alive in the tabloids, 647 00:34:43,540 --> 00:34:48,380 but with the love of her pageants and her education in theater, I can see why she wanted 648 00:34:48,380 --> 00:34:51,380 it to remain in the spotlight. 649 00:34:51,380 --> 00:34:56,100 In case you're wondering what happened to Kirk, I couldn't really find a lot out about 650 00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:02,420 him other than to say that he eventually moved on, got married, started a family, but unfortunately 651 00:35:02,420 --> 00:35:04,260 he passed away in 2004. 652 00:35:04,260 --> 00:35:06,900 Oh, that's too bad. 653 00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:07,900 Yeah. 654 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:13,540 Keith May became a travel agent in Utah and refused any interviews after returning to 655 00:35:13,540 --> 00:35:14,540 the States. 656 00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:19,940 And he also, according to the movie that I saw, he also passed away in 2004. 657 00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:21,060 Wow. 658 00:35:21,060 --> 00:35:22,060 And that's it. 659 00:35:22,060 --> 00:35:24,420 That's the story of Joyce McKinney. 660 00:35:24,420 --> 00:35:25,420 Wow. 661 00:35:25,420 --> 00:35:27,720 This is a very interesting story. 662 00:35:27,720 --> 00:35:30,180 It's one that seems like it should be in the tabloids. 663 00:35:30,180 --> 00:35:31,180 Uh huh. 664 00:35:31,180 --> 00:35:36,220 I mean, she did, Joyce did a really good job of keeping it alive in the, in the tabloids. 665 00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:37,220 Don't you think? 666 00:35:37,220 --> 00:35:38,220 She certainly did. 667 00:35:38,220 --> 00:35:39,220 Yes. 668 00:35:39,220 --> 00:35:40,340 I think so too. 669 00:35:40,340 --> 00:35:42,300 So go grab a tabloid people. 670 00:35:42,300 --> 00:35:44,500 So Deb, what's your teachable moment today? 671 00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:47,500 Well, that's a hard one today, Beth. 672 00:35:47,500 --> 00:35:53,540 I would say because the story still remains a he said, she said account, you really need 673 00:35:53,540 --> 00:35:57,220 to do your own homework before drawing conclusions. 674 00:35:57,220 --> 00:36:04,100 This case to me oozes so much gossip, especially because tabloids are known to be a gossip 675 00:36:04,100 --> 00:36:05,100 magazine. 676 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:09,860 You know, I always try to find reputable sources for our episodes. 677 00:36:09,860 --> 00:36:14,020 And I've said this before, do your homework before you believe anything. 678 00:36:14,020 --> 00:36:18,220 Because the truth, in its own right, can be harmful or damaging. 679 00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:22,580 And in this case, Kirk spoke his truth as did Joyce. 680 00:36:22,580 --> 00:36:23,900 She spoke her truth. 681 00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:29,420 So after hearing both sides of the story, I guess we'll never know which account is 682 00:36:29,420 --> 00:36:30,420 actually true. 683 00:36:30,420 --> 00:36:35,180 All we know is that one person stands behind their faith and the other stands behind their 684 00:36:35,180 --> 00:36:36,180 love story. 685 00:36:36,180 --> 00:36:37,180 So that's my teachable moment, Beth. 686 00:36:37,180 --> 00:36:38,180 That was a very interesting story, Deb. 687 00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:46,420 Thank you very much again for sharing such an intriguing series of events. 688 00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:52,580 And I do think the people that wanted to have this story brought forward, I love suggestions 689 00:36:52,580 --> 00:36:53,580 from our audience. 690 00:36:53,580 --> 00:36:54,580 Absolutely. 691 00:36:54,580 --> 00:36:56,380 So I hope I did this one justice. 692 00:36:56,380 --> 00:36:57,860 Oh, I think you did. 693 00:36:57,860 --> 00:36:58,860 It was a good one. 694 00:36:58,860 --> 00:37:02,020 I was actually what am I getting myself into here? 695 00:37:02,020 --> 00:37:03,020 Exactly. 696 00:37:03,020 --> 00:37:04,020 I don't know. 697 00:37:04,020 --> 00:37:07,420 I guess I'll have to watch that tabloid to see if... 698 00:37:07,420 --> 00:37:08,420 Change your mind? 699 00:37:08,420 --> 00:37:09,860 Yeah, I did change my mind. 700 00:37:09,860 --> 00:37:10,860 Okay. 701 00:37:10,860 --> 00:37:12,460 Oh, I love this story. 702 00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:13,700 This was really good. 703 00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:14,700 Tell me why. 704 00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:17,340 Because it was just, it's just a refreshing change. 705 00:37:17,340 --> 00:37:18,900 Yeah, I agree. 706 00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:22,700 I mean, really sometimes we have to do this as a palate cleanser. 707 00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:23,700 We do. 708 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:24,700 Nobody died. 709 00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:25,700 Mm hmm. 710 00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:26,700 You know, it's funny. 711 00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:31,220 It never dawned on me, but yes, it just seemed like it was an overall refreshing change. 712 00:37:31,220 --> 00:37:34,540 Good deal. 713 00:37:34,540 --> 00:37:35,540 And that's a wrap. 714 00:37:35,540 --> 00:37:36,540 That is a wrap. 715 00:37:36,540 --> 00:37:39,660 Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found. 716 00:37:39,660 --> 00:37:44,660 Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. 717 00:37:44,660 --> 00:37:50,380 Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to be Found. 718 00:37:50,380 --> 00:37:56,260 You can access our website, email, social media, and storyline request form by clicking 719 00:37:56,260 --> 00:37:59,020 on our Linktree account found in our show notes. 720 00:37:59,020 --> 00:38:04,540 If you like our episodes, consider buying us a coffee at buymeacoffee.com slash Dying 721 00:38:04,540 --> 00:38:07,780 to be Found, spelled just like you see it on our logo. 722 00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:12,060 Feel free to message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing, or if you'd like 723 00:38:12,060 --> 00:38:13,060 a sticker. 724 00:38:13,060 --> 00:38:17,900 With that, be sure to check us out every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. 725 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:19,900 We will talk to you all next week. 726 00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:34,900 Bye.