Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found.
Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions
on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast.
Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Hi everyone, I'm Deb.
And I'm Beth.
And we are so glad you are here today.
If you have a storyline you would like to hear, be sure to message us on Instagram or email us at dying2theletterbefound at gmail.com.
You can also access these links plus our storyline request form on our link tree found in our show notes.
But before we get started, Beth, I have a question for you.
What?
Do you ever read tabloid magazines?
I do.
A few of them.
If they're hanging around or I've just got three from a girlfriend, I haven't reopened them yet.
But yeah, I still like my tabloids.
Okay, I'm going to say I loved reading National Enquirer when I was a teenager.
I remember one time I went to dad's to visit and he was all up in arms about me reading a tabloid.
He basically told me that they were complete nonsense and I was wasting my time reading them.
But it was just fun.
To me, it was just fun as a kid reading those stories.
For those of you who do not know what a tabloid is, it's a newspaper that gives you smaller articles and bigger pictures to pull the reader in just by the pictures alone.
So the content is not as vast as you would get from a newspaper article.
But yeah, so okay, cool.
Any thoughts?
Well, good.
A lot of them were just things that you would think, that never happens.
But we talked about Sasquatch.
So you know, tabloids may be right.
True and UFOs.
Exactly.
They are right.
I so believe in them.
I'm on the fence on that one.
Okay.
All right.
Today's episode is based on the accounts of two parties and it's not entirely clear whose
story is correct because we're talking about Joyce McKinney and Kirk Anderson today.
Joyce was also known as Madame Mayhem and Kirk was known as the Manicled Mormon.
Have you heard of them?
No.
Okay.
Well, I'm going to say there are two main characters.
I'll be talking mainly from Joyce's perspective because she's the one who disclosed the majority
of the information that I'm going to talk about from the British and American tabloids.
Now I found enough credible resources to give an account to our story.
And I'm going to start by saying that I was in a chat room with some of our fellow podcasters.
Hi True Kramers.
We love you.
Yes, we do.
And one of them asked for someone to please cover the story.
Beth, since you always say that we give our listeners episodes that you can relate to,
and I always say that our brand always leaves our stories open to interpretation.
I don't think you're going to be disappointed today.
Woo.
Yeah.
The only thing is I did not get permission to give a show out.
So if you're listening, you know who you are.
Please email us and I will be sure to give you that show out in a future episode.
How about that?
Okay.
So let's begin.
Joyce Burnan McKinney was born and raised as an only child by two school teachers in
Minneapolis, North Carolina.
Minneapolis for our listeners who don't know, and you Beth probably, is a small town located
in Western North Carolina in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.
And we've talked about the Appalachian Mountains before because I live in the Appalachian Mountains
of Georgia.
I could not find Joyce's birth date, but just based on my research and everything that I
pieced together, I'm going to say that she was born somewhere around the early 1950s,
1951 possibly.
Give or take a year or two.
So hopefully I'm not way off with that age frame, but I'm thinking that she was born
in the 50s.
As a child, Joyce grew up loving theater and beauty pageants, which will come into play
in just a moment.
Beth, how do you feel about beauty pageants?
I was thinking about that the other day because I was thinking, gee, there hasn't been a pageant
on TV in a while.
I think it's culturally, socially unacceptable anymore.
It is.
Well, if I had to take it or leave it, I'll leave it.
I remember growing up, Kathy always loved watching those beauty pageants.
Did you watch those with her?
I loved them.
What did you like about them?
I don't know, I think the elegance and the answers they would give to the various questions,
just an all around, it was a fun thing to watch.
Very cool.
Well, I found them uber boring, no offense, because we all have different tastes, but
I never could sit still long enough to watch those.
But moving on to Joyce, she eventually went to earn a bachelor's degree in fine arts from
East Tennessee University and eventually moved out to Utah and then Wyoming.
She had an IQ measurement of 168.
So Beth, I'm going to just ask you a bunch of questions today.
Who do you think is one of the smartest people in history?
What name comes to mind?
Albert Einstein.
Okay, so let me put this into perspective.
The average IQ is somewhere around 111.
Albert Einstein was never actually tested, but experts estimate that his IQ was 160.
Wow.
Yeah.
When I began researching this case, I found a really cool link of the top 35 people whose
IQs surpass Einstein, who were smarter than him.
Really?
Yep.
Joyce says that she has an IQ of 168.
So here she surpasses Einstein.
I don't know what substance there is to that, but I'll put it in our show notes for anyone
who is as nerdy as me.
And just to clarify, IQ equals your mental age divided by your chronological age times
100.
So just let that sink in.
You all can do the math.
You'd probably have to take some kind of IQ test to get your number, but just remember
111 is average.
In 1973, Joyce participated in a Miss World pageant where she was crowned Miss Wyoming.
How about that?
That sounds pretty cool.
I mean, I'm going to say she is truly a gorgeous woman.
It looks to me she's got an innocent, but just a very subtle, innocent, I don't know.
She's just beautiful all the way around.
If you looked at her pictures when she was young, gorgeous.
Now don't confuse this pageant with Miss USA because they are completely different.
And since Beth, I told you that I didn't like watching beauty pageants growing up.
I didn't really put in a lot of effort to find out the difference.
Joyce also began studying for her master's degree in theater and drama at Brigham Young
University in Salt Lake City, Utah, while staying with a Mormon family.
How about that?
Sounds nice.
We've talked about Mormons before because that's Elizabeth Smart in her family.
Oh yes.
Yeah.
Joyce soon became obsessed with a little Mormon family.
You may have heard of them.
The Osmonds?
Really?
Yeah.
Gosh.
She states that she had a brief relationship with Wayne Osmond and I believe he was the
second oldest out of all seven children.
I only know Donnie and Marie.
We should let people know who they are because people listen from around the world and they're
probably wondering who the Osmonds are.
Yeah.
You want to tell them?
This is more your era than mine.
So you go ahead.
I just remember listening to your music and that was one of the groups.
Well, I listened to Donnie Osmond singing on record over and over and over again.
And then Donnie and Marie had a show back in the seventies.
Yes, they did.
And then Donnie went on to the stage and played Joseph in the amazing Technicolor dream coat.
I don't think I ever saw that.
I just remember his purple socks.
Well, Olive Osmond, Wayne's mother, developed some concerns about Joyce.
I never could find out what, but she insisted that Wayne move on.
Really?
Yep.
She said that she would marry Wayne one day and was completely devastated when she learned
that he had become engaged to another woman.
That's too bad.
Yeah.
Joyce eventually moved on and began working on her doctorate at Brigham Young, where she
met a young man by the name of Kirk Anderson.
The couple began dating, but being a devout Mormon, Kirk felt really guilty about taking
Joyce's virginity and confessed to the church about his ongoing relationship with her.
Church elders advised Kirk to end the relationship and because he was a devout Mormon, he complied.
Joyce wasn't going for it though.
After Kirk broke up with her, Beth, she went fatal attraction on Kirk and began stalking
him.
Oh no.
Oh yes.
In later interviews, Joyce stated that Kirk had asked her to marry him, but his church
did not approve because she was not a Mormon.
Oh, that's too bad.
After several run-ins with Joyce in California and Oregon, Kirk left for a two-year mission
trip overseas in England.
Beth, what would you do if you had to move frequently when some wackadoodle keeps reappearing
and you're not looking for them?
They just show up.
What would you do?
I probably would go to the police.
I would think so as well.
That didn't stop Joyce though, because after Kirk left for his two-year mission trip overseas
in England, Joyce hired a private investigator to track him down, of course, because he had
disappeared again.
After about a year and a half, the PI tracked him down in Yule, England, where Kirk was
working for a local church going door to door to profess his faith.
Wow.
Yeah.
Have you ever had anybody knock on your door to talk about their faith?
I have.
I have too, but certainly not lately.
No, not lately.
Okay, so let's stop here for just a second.
How much money do you think Joyce poured into private investigator fees for him to be on
this case for 18 months?
A hundred thousand?
I don't know.
Just wanted to throw that out there.
I thought you had an answer for me.
Nope, not this time.
All right.
How psycho do you have to be to still hold an obsession with someone a year and a half
after you break up?
Very.
That's crazy.
That is crazy.
So guess what Joyce did next?
I can't even imagine.
Well, she placed an ad in the newspaper to hire two people to assist her and her friend
Keith May in rescuing somebody from a cult.
So she had it in her head that Kirk was in a cult because he belonged to the Mormon faith.
So she eventually hired Gil Parker, who was a bodyguard and Jackson Shaw, a pilot to fly
her over to England when Joyce's PI had located Kirk.
That is just something.
Joyce and Keith hopped onto a flight to Yule, England to reunite with a 21 year old Kirk
who was doing his missionary work overseas.
I'll just add that Joyce was somewhere around the age of 28 at this point.
So she was a little bit older than him.
According to Gil Parker, while they were in the hotel, he and Jackson Shaw observed Joyce
and Keith pulling out a gun, some chloroform, a microphone and listening devices.
That's crazy.
Yeah, well, they thought so too, because they immediately refused any further involvement
and they left Joyce and Keith to hatch their own plan.
Keith was to pose as someone who was interested in converting to Mormonism.
This is getting really crazy.
It is.
Oh Beth, it gets crazier.
You're not even going to believe it.
Does it?
Oh yes.
This is a really neat case.
Well, I'll tell you a little bit more of what I learned after I did my research because
I'm going to share something with you and our listeners that I will highly encourage
you all to follow up on, but I'm not there yet.
You tease you.
Well in September of 1977, once they reached the village, Keith approached Kirk and after
chatting with him for a while, Keith pulled out a fake gun and forced Kirk into his car
where Joyce was waiting for him hidden under a blanket.
My gosh, child's play.
Right?
And I'm telling you, this is like fatal attraction here.
It is.
Once Kirk was placed into the car, Joyce used chloroform to sedate him.
Keith then drove the couple out to a 17th century cottage in Devon, England.
And that was probably somewhere around 250 miles away.
Did you, you said Devon?
Devon, England.
That's where our ancestors are from.
What?
Yes.
Wow.
Look back in that family tree book that dad put together for us.
Do you still have it?
I do and I remember that cause I can see his handwriting.
Yeah, it's all in Devon.
Oh my goodness.
Holy cow.
No wonder I was drawn to this case.
All right.
There are two accounts of what happened next, Beth.
Don't forget we have Madam Mayhem and Manacled Mormon.
Okay.
Kirk found himself restrained, spread eagle to the bedposts in mink lined handcuffs when
he woke up from that chloroform.
Oh, that's really crazy.
That's pretty kinky.
It is.
What is that movie with that lady?
Misery.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, okay.
This is a misery moment.
It's just a mixture of a misery and a fatal attraction here.
Yes.
All right.
Court records showed later that Kirk had made a statement that Joyce had torn off his pajamas
from his body and proceeded to have intercourse with him, which upset him greatly because he
did not want it to happen.
Oh my gosh.
Joyce's account on the other hand is that before Kirk was brought to the cottage, she
stocked the fridge with his favorite foods and read the book, The Joy of Sex, in order
to prepare for their mutually planned rendezvous.
While they were at the cottage, Joyce stated that they spent three days reuniting and rekindling
their relationship through consensual sex.
What are your thoughts on that?
What do you think?
I think this whole case seems like so far, and I know we've got a long ways to go yet.
This is just unbelievable.
Yep.
This is getting crazier.
Oh boy, but just wait.
Regardless of which story is correct, Kirk stated that he only escaped after promising
to marry Joyce.
And after earning her trust, Joyce eventually unhandcuffed him from the bed, and that's
when Kirk bolted.
So I guess my question here is where's Keith in all of this?
Did he just drop them off at the cottage and off he went?
I guess he probably could have gone back to the hotel.
That's what I'm guessing.
Okay.
Well, Kirk immediately went to the police where he stated that for three days, Joyce
held him captive and repeatedly raped him while he was chained to the bed.
And it was her desire to become pregnant to have his child.
Weird.
As a side note though, Joyce did say during one of her interviews that she had already
become pregnant by Kirk when they first began dating, but she had miscarried their baby.
Hmm.
Could be a lie.
I don't know.
We'll never know.
No, we won't.
Joyce and Keith were quickly arrested, but at this point it was a he said, she said situation.
While she was in custody, Joyce held a handwritten note up to onlookers while she was in the
police vehicle saying that she was innocent.
So she basically held it up to the window through the bars and was telling the world
that she was innocent.
And we know Kirk's side of the story here, but Joyce had her own.
She had told authorities that Kirk came to the cottage on his own free will.
She insisted that any sexual relations during that time were completely consensual, including
his being tied to the bed.
Right.
Joyce mentioned how Kirk was impotent upon arrival because of his religious reservations,
but soon she began chanting in prayer and with him being tied to the bed, he became
aroused.
However, she did not receive any sexual pleasure from their relations because she was too busy
trying to deprogram him and satisfy his sexual desires.
Joyce stated that Kirk was brainwashed by a dominant mother who was overprotective,
plus the Mormon church who frowned upon sexual behaviors.
And she went on to say that she was simply trying to deprogram him from their cult religion.
Okay, pause.
Isn't that admitting guilt right there?
She was trying to deprogram him.
So does it sound like he was coming on his own?
No, not at all.
The whole thing is, is just so odd.
Like to have a high IQ, is that showing that she is completely nuts?
Or is that saying, you know, like it just, it doesn't make sense for somebody with a
high IQ to be doing something like this.
I think so, Beth, a lot of these people that we've covered do have high IQs and sometimes
their mindsets are very literal or in this case, I'm going to say she's got that background
in theater.
So she's very dramatic to me.
Oh, yes.
Yeah.
Well, Joyce proceeded to insist that she was desirable by giving police her body measurements
and informing them that she was Miss Wyoming.
She wanted to remind them that she was in the spotlight and she did not have to work
very hard to get any man.
I'm sure this was all impressive, but the police were not going for it.
Joyce was charged with false imprisonment and being in possession of a firearm.
She was not, however, charged with rape.
Any guesses why?
Well, because she said he was impotent.
Okay.
That's a good guess.
Well, in 1977, Beth, England did not have any laws in place to charge a woman of raping
a man.
Oh, in addition, police compared Kirk's size against Joyce and they were a little bit skeptical
that she could overpower a six foot five man weighing 245 pounds.
Remember she was a former beauty queen and she did state she would never have to resort
to these accusations to get a man.
So I can see that in a way and Kirk was a pretty big guy, but we're leaving out the
part that Keith Mays was there to help her.
Yeah.
So in 2017, I wanted to just kind of bring up this report because the US Bureau of Justice
Statistics found that actual cases of let's call them reverse reports, Beth, they contradict
social stigmas where female sexual predators are rare.
In fact, a study was conducted where its findings stated that 43% of college and high school
aged boys were sexually coerced into sexual relations brought on by females.
What do you think of that?
That's a high statistic.
I think so too.
Now this is back in 2017.
So how many years have already gone by?
But back in the day, of course, you would say that it would be rare for a woman to take
advantage of a man.
Yes, for sure.
Well, in March of 1978, this case became an instant public spectacle in the news.
Joyce sold her story to the local tabloid for 40,000 pounds or 42,000 US dollars and
almost 62,000 Canadian dollars.
That's a lot.
It is.
But tabloids were known to pay an awful lot.
Yes.
The tabloids immediately dubbed her as Madame Mayhem, like I had mentioned, and Kirk, the
manacled Mormon.
And this case became an instant sensation in England.
Wow.
I'm going to read up a little bit more about this.
I'm going to give you a little shortcut in just a little bit.
You don't have to read up on it.
Okay.
It takes too much time.
Joyce's side of the story was that Kirk feared excommunication from the church and made the
entire story up to cover his tracks.
This entire incident became quite amusing.
According to public opinion, Joyce was quoted as saying that she never understood why the
public was so interested in her love life.
And three months after their arrest, Joyce and Keith were released on bail.
According to her bail agreement, Joyce was required to live with her parents who had
traveled over to the UK during her arrest.
And due to her instant celebrity status, Joyce began hobnobbing with other celebrities.
She was seen out with Keith Moon, the drummer of a little band called The Who.
Did you follow them, Beth?
No.
Not your style of music?
No, definitely not.
Bee Gees, Abba.
I really like the Bee Gees.
Well guess what?
What?
Joyce was also seen at same events as Rolling Stones, The Bee Gees, and Joan Collins.
Oh.
Yeah.
Although Joan wasn't impressed with Joyce's company because at some function, Joyce seemed
to outshine her at the public event because of the story going on.
Yeah.
And I could see that Joan wouldn't like that.
Yup.
Me too.
Joyce was also trying to sell her story to filmmakers, but things actually came to a
stall.
Do you have any ideas what happened next?
No, not at all.
Well, Joyce and Keith decided it was time to skip town before the trial.
Together?
Yeah.
Well, Keith came over to help her abduct, I guess abduct is a good word, help her abduct
Kirk and take her to the cottage.
Mm-hmm.
All right.
So Joyce and Keith decided that it was time to skip town before the trial because a potential
ex-boyfriend approached the tabloids with several soft porn photographs that he had
taken while he and Joyce were together.
Now I'm going to tell you, I did see some of them and again, to me, they were tasteful.
Joyce was a beautiful young woman, nothing wrong with them, but of course that's going
to add scandal to the story.
And Joyce knew that this would cause harm to her defense, so she disguised herself as
a nun.
And I don't know if Keith disguised himself as a nun as well, but several articles did
say that he disguised himself in the same manner as her and we'll just go with that.
This case keeps getting crazier and crazier.
Well, what do you think happened next?
I'll let you take that sip of coffee out of your cute little owl mug because I will do
the same while you tell me what you think happened next.
Gosh, I can't even think what's going to happen next because it's all happened already.
Okay, well, absolutely nothing happened.
Police decided not to pursue the fugitives and dropped all charges.
Life went on for the next seven years for all parties.
That's ridiculous.
Right?
Yeah.
At this point, I'm going to say that Joyce is in desperate need of mental health assessments
because in 1984, Beth, she tracked Kirk down again in Salt Lake City, Utah, where she basically
picked up where she left off and began stalking him again.
For goodness sakes, you think of that seven year period, she would have cooled off and
found another man to go after.
That is what I'm saying.
How can you be so obsessed with somebody that long?
Move on.
I wonder what she did for those seven years.
I don't know.
I couldn't find very much.
Well, Kirk would have nothing to do with her.
And again, Joyce was arrested at the Salt Lake City Airport where she was sitting in
her car, just watching.
All right.
For a second time, this turned into a he said, she said situation where Kirk stated that
Joyce was stalking his daily activities at the airport.
Joyce innocently said that she happened to be passing through the Salt Lake City Airport
where Kirk happened to be working at the time.
Upon her arrest, the police searched Joyce's vehicle and found the following items in her
trunk, a rope, some handcuffs and a notebook documenting Kirk's daily activities.
Geez, that's a stalker for sure.
Absolutely.
Now we're going to move on to another story that eventually appeared in the news in 2008.
Just a little side note, a little shift.
Same character though.
Let's say that.
Okay.
Joyce had hired a South Korean company to clone her dead dog, Booger.
That's crazy.
And so is the name.
In an interview I found from the Denver Post, Joyce stated that she had her dog's tissue
frozen after he died and hoped that this story would influence people in a positive way as
opposed to the negative publicity that she received in the 1970s.
She stated that she thought cloning puppies would convince people to see her in a different
light by doing something good as opposed to just concentrating on her celebrity status.
Because you know, she did really kind of beef up the story herself.
She did involve the tabloids.
Yeah.
However, it was the tabloids that recognized her specifically from this news story and
put the Manicold Mormon, Madame Mayhem story right back in the spotlight.
Well, I think it's better to bring it back out in the spotlight so that they can get
to the bottom of what's going on.
Uh-huh.
Well, the Korean firm took the dog's skin cells and successfully produced a litter of
puppies.
Can you believe that?
No, that's gross.
Joyce named every one of the puppies after herself and the Korean scientists that she
had hired.
What do you think of that?
Again, very strange.
Yeah, she's, I think she's a little out there.
Very egocentric.
How is that word?
Egocentrical?
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, you have a point.
Well, sadly, three of the puppies ended up in a dog shelter and two had to be euthanized
due to health and behavioral issues.
Animal control had been called numerous times on Joyce's treatment of the animals where
they had been found living in crates and in poor living conditions in general.
So I know you're not much of a dog person, Beth, but...
Well, I'm a very tiny dog lover.
I love my little dogs.
And I think that's cruel.
That's sad.
That breaks my heart.
It does.
Those poor animals.
I know you've seen those commercials where they're behind the sad music.
Yes.
I can hardly look at them because it's just so devastating.
It is.
In 2009, filmmaker Errol Morris approached Joyce in the hopes of making a movie based
on the Manicold Mormon case and eventually released a documentary in 2010 called Tabloid,
which gives an account of past events.
So I'm going to stop right there for just a second.
This is where I'm telling you, you do not have to research the case.
To our listeners, there is that movie out on the internet.
It is not on Netflix.
It is not on Amazon Prime.
But I Googled it yesterday and I watched it.
It was really, really good.
And was it on this whole story?
It sure was.
It actually added a lot of content that is not what I'm telling you today.
And that's why I encourage everybody to watch this because Joyce is rather convincing in
my opinion.
And it really does.
It dives a little deeper into the entire situation.
So I absolutely recommend you all going to look for that.
It'll probably fill in a lot of the holes.
I'll leave it at that.
Well, I think I'm going to look at that for this evening.
Yeah, it's about an hour and a half long.
It's really, really good.
Remember though, Joyce is very theatrical.
I'll just leave it at that.
Okay.
On a flip side, Joyce believed that this film made her out to look like a sexual predator.
And in 2016, she sued the filmmakers for defamation of character, invasion of privacy, and fraud.
I don't know if I agree with that though, because I think they did a really good job
on telling the story.
I don't know.
Just watch for yourself.
I will.
In her lawsuit, Joyce said that the documentary made her out to be crazy and a prostitute.
Yeah, a little bit.
Joyce also claimed that the filmmaker stole a manuscript from her that she had planned
to turn into a personal memoir.
And I'm going to kind of go back to that movie.
She is telling a story at the beginning of the movie.
And I'm going to say that was probably her personal memoir that she planned to have published.
I don't know.
Errol Morris did offer Joyce a settlement out of court for $65,000, but Joyce refused,
stating that he made millions off of this film.
So what happens when you refuse an offer?
You go to court.
The judge did not rule in her favor because filmmakers were able to produce a written
document showing her signature on a release form.
Lawyers also argued for freedom of speech rights and they won.
Good.
Yeah.
So this goes to show you that the filmmakers obviously had experience in how to cover their
backs, eh?
Yes.
Jumping up to June 17th of 2019, Joyce was in her late sixties and homeless, living out
of her car.
She was once again arrested for a hit and run where she killed a 91 year old Holocaust
survivor.
Oh, that's terrible.
Yes.
At 5 17 a.m. on June 17th of 2019, video surveillance at a local pizza hut where Joyce frequented
captured her striking Genadie Balotsky with her vehicle while he was out walking his dog
in the San Fernando Valley, just outside of Los Angeles.
Oh, that's sad.
Yeah.
Genadie was born in the Ukraine where his family fled the Nazi invasion in the Soviet
Union back in 1941.
Well two days later, police located her vehicle and were about to go question her about this
hit and run.
However, Joyce did not see them coming.
As she got out of her vehicle, she proceeded to urinate in public as the police officers
approached her.
What?
I mean, she's living in her car, Beth.
It's really to me that's very sad.
She has just reached a sad part of her life.
Oh, that is just horrifying.
Yeah.
Well, Joyce was arrested based on numerous leads from tips that were called in.
Good.
She denied all charges and stated that she was being held against her will by the police.
I mean, Beth, who isn't being held against their will by the police when they're arrested?
True.
She was charged with manslaughter, assault with a deadly weapon, a hit and run resulting
in death and gross negligence.
Well, that's good.
Yeah.
She got away with Kirk, got off with that.
So I'm glad she managed to get some sort of charges.
Yeah.
I mean, she got arrested, but what will happen from here?
We don't know.
The public defender filed a motion in court not to proceed with a trial due to Joyce's
mental conditions.
Court documents stated that Joyce was unfit to stand trial and the judge ordered an evaluation.
Joyce was found by psychiatrists to be unfit to stand trial and was never charged in Genedy's
death.
Oh my gosh.
Now, come on.
She was admitted to a mental health facility for treatment where she remains today.
What?
Yep.
When asked in recent years about what happened in 1977, Joyce simply stated that, quote,
this was the greatest love story ever told, end quote.
So there you have it, Beth, the story of Madam Mayhem versus the Manacled Mormon.
And whose story do you most likely believe at this point?
The Manacled Mormon.
I say go watch that movie and you might be swayed a little bit.
I mean, we'll never know.
This was just crazy.
It was a pretty interesting story.
So I'm glad that it was put on the suggestion list.
Yes.
I will say that Joyce really seemed to enjoy keeping this story alive in the tabloids,
but with the love of her pageants and her education in theater, I can see why she wanted
it to remain in the spotlight.
In case you're wondering what happened to Kirk, I couldn't really find a lot out about
him other than to say that he eventually moved on, got married, started a family, but unfortunately
he passed away in 2004.
Oh, that's too bad.
Yeah.
Keith May became a travel agent in Utah and refused any interviews after returning to
the States.
And he also, according to the movie that I saw, he also passed away in 2004.
Wow.
And that's it.
That's the story of Joyce McKinney.
Wow.
This is a very interesting story.
It's one that seems like it should be in the tabloids.
Uh huh.
I mean, she did, Joyce did a really good job of keeping it alive in the, in the tabloids.
Don't you think?
She certainly did.
Yes.
I think so too.
So go grab a tabloid people.
So Deb, what's your teachable moment today?
Well, that's a hard one today, Beth.
I would say because the story still remains a he said, she said account, you really need
to do your own homework before drawing conclusions.
This case to me oozes so much gossip, especially because tabloids are known to be a gossip
magazine.
You know, I always try to find reputable sources for our episodes.
And I've said this before, do your homework before you believe anything.
Because the truth, in its own right, can be harmful or damaging.
And in this case, Kirk spoke his truth as did Joyce.
She spoke her truth.
So after hearing both sides of the story, I guess we'll never know which account is
actually true.
All we know is that one person stands behind their faith and the other stands behind their
love story.
So that's my teachable moment, Beth.
That was a very interesting story, Deb.
Thank you very much again for sharing such an intriguing series of events.
And I do think the people that wanted to have this story brought forward, I love suggestions
from our audience.
Absolutely.
So I hope I did this one justice.
Oh, I think you did.
It was a good one.
I was actually what am I getting myself into here?
Exactly.
I don't know.
I guess I'll have to watch that tabloid to see if...
Change your mind?
Yeah, I did change my mind.
Okay.
Oh, I love this story.
This was really good.
Tell me why.
Because it was just, it's just a refreshing change.
Yeah, I agree.
I mean, really sometimes we have to do this as a palate cleanser.
We do.
Nobody died.
Mm hmm.
You know, it's funny.
It never dawned on me, but yes, it just seemed like it was an overall refreshing change.
Good deal.
And that's a wrap.
That is a wrap.
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