SPEAKERS Deb, Beth Deb 00:04 Hi everyone. This is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or/ humankind. Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. Listener discretion is strongly advised. Hi, everyone, this is Deb. Beth 00:29 And I'm Beth. Deb 00:30 And we want to welcome you to episode number 34 of Dying to be Found. As always, we appreciate you joining us. So thanks so much for being here. In the meantime, Beth... Beth 00:43 What? Deb 00:44 I have a question for you. You like to travel, right? For sure for sure. If you were to choose a plane, train or automobile which is your preference to travel across Canada? Beth 00:54 Train. Deb 00:56 Train. How come? I have not been on a train since going up to Moosenee with dad. Beth 00:59 Really? Deb 00:59 Yes. But guess what? I am going to take a trip in just a couple of months, and I am going by train! Beth 00:59 Well do tell. Deb 00:59 I am going up to Washington DC. I don't know if you have ever been there, but it is so historical. I am going to go up there in a couple of months, and that inspired me to talk about what we are going to talk about today. It's the 1995 Amtrak derailment. Beth 00:59 Well, I just made a 12-hour trip up to see my daughter by train. It surprised me how fast that time went. It was just so nice. Wow, Let's jump right in. Deb 01:30 Well okay. Did you know that there are a lot of passenger train derailments? Beth 01:59 No. That's a surprise to me. Deb 01:59 Many occur through human error, vehicles on the tracks, and you get the picture with that. You don't want to go look that up. Beth 01:59 I will though. Right. Deb 02:12 The top four states in the United States that have derailments are Texas, California, Georgia and Illinois. Do you think I should still take this train trip up to DC? Beth 02:24 I sure do. Because it's not it's never going to happen to me thought. Deb 02:28 Oh, yeah. It's not going to stop me back because I love just doing different things. And it's been a long time since I've been on a train so I'm ready for that trip. Beth 02:38 Fantastic. Deb 02:39 Let's talk about the 1995 Amtrak - We're goingcall it a sabotage. Beth 02:47 Okay. Deb 02:48 On October 9 1995 - and I'm going to say between the hours of 1:30am and 2:30am - there were a lot of conflicting articles that I read, so I'm going to just give that hour timeframe. I had no idea they named their trains, Beth. Beth 03:03 They do? Deb 03:07 Amtrak had a train that they called Sunset Limited, which is a cool name. I think. It was a two locomotive, and 12 car Amtrak train carrying 248 passengers and 20 crew members, which was making its way from Miami, Florida to Los Angeles, California. Its last stop was in New Orleans, Louisiana. And as the train made its way through the remote Arizona desert at only 50 miles per hour, or 80.46 kilometers per hour, it reached a bridge just after a curve in the track and derailed near a very small rural town called Hyder, Arizona, which is located about 50 miles or 80 and a half kilometers west of Phoenix. I don't know if you know the US map very well, Beth. Beth 04:02 I was trying to picture it. I know it's on the west somewhere. Deb 04:05 If you look to towards the west, it's very, very close to California. Beth 04:09 Oh, okay. That's kind of what I gathered. Deb 04:12 Okay. Well, eight of the 12 cars, including two locomotives derailed and just for our listeners, a locomotive is basically the machine that pulls the train. So Beth, you may want to think of the very first vehicle that you see at the front of the train. It's the one that's got the big light on it, kind of like the engine. They had two locomotives pulling that train. The passenger train jumped the tracks, and most of the middle cars jackknifed, which catapulted many of the victims from their seats, four of the 12 passenger cars plunged 30 feet or 9.14 meters into a ravine. Beth 04:53 Oh no. Deb 04:54 So basically it went off the track, imagine it going airborne and then going down 30 feet. Yeah, I do want you to remember this is after midnight, so you know how dark that was? Yes. More than 70 people were injured, and one person nfortunately, an Amtrak employee by the name of Mitchell Bates, died. Mitchell was only 41 years old. Bates was one of the sleeping car attendants and had worked for Amtrak for 20 years. I just wanted to mention one of the passengers later described Mitchell as very kind and attentive. So just an all around nice guy. Beth 05:34 Sounds like it. Deb 05:35 Let's talk about the investigation. According to Amtrak officials, the last train to pass through this area before the Sunset Limited was at 6:30am, the morning before about 18 hours prior to the derailment. Investigators believe that whoever was responsible was likely targeting a passenger train over a freight train. Of course, that makes sense. Beth 06:04 Oh, no. Deb 06:05 According to the FBI, the railroad tracks just outside of Phoenix, Arizona had been tampered with. And this would have been easy to do because of this location for a couple of reasons. Authorities believe that this section of the tracks was chosen because it was a very remote area. Anyone out there at the tracks would be very unlikely to be spotted. Beth, I want you to think about Little House on the Prairie. That's about how rural this area was. Basically out in the wilderness. Out in the desert. Not a ton of anything around it. Beth 06:39 Oh, Well, it seems like a funny place to want to go into making trouble for the train. Deb 06:46 How so? Beth 06:47 Because it's an open area. I don't think that derailing a train would have as big an impact in a rural versus where we'll be more urban. Deb 07:00 You are so right. Oh my gosh, I love working with you because we have so many different thought processes. Beth 07:06 We do. Deb 07:07 Yeah, for sure. Because if they really wanted to do more damage as far as making sure they were in a highly populated area. Well, further investigation showed that whoever was responsible really knew what they were doing because six bolts were removed from the connecting rail joints and again, conflicting numbers, but somewhere between 29 and 39 spikes were removed at the bridge site. Beth 07:36 Good golly. Deb 07:37 I know right? They also shifted the rail about four inches inward just after the curve in the track. If you're looking up ahead at the track, and you see the curve coming up right past that curve is where they shifted the tracks. Beth 07:54 Okay. Deb 07:55 Whoever was responsible for this breach bypassed the rail warning system so that this sabotage would go undetected by Amtrak's communication system. So I have a question for you Beth. Beth 08:07 What? Deb 08:07 Have you ever come across a rail yard or any area of the tracks where you see something that looks like a traffic light and the light is either red or green? Beth 08:17 Yes. Deb 08:18 That's the communication system. Beth 08:20 Oh, how so? Deb 08:21 If the conductor on a train is approaching an area that's got one of those communication systems it's almost like red light green light. It tells them that they need to slow down if it's red or they are perfectly fine to keep going if it's green. Beth 08:38 Okay. Deb 08:39 Yeah, so they'll just be on their way, nothing to worry about no hazards in the way and so they can just move along their way. But whoever ran these wires was able to bypass that communication system and kept the light on green. So as the conductor in the front of the locomotive approached, they thought everything was fine. Everything was clear. They could just keep on going. Beth 09:06 That's not good. Deb 09:07 No, because experts say their rewiring only takes about 10 minutes. Clearly this person that was tampering with the railway they knew what they were doing Beth 09:19 For sure. Deb 09:20 When the train derailed to rail cars remained on the tracks. Several others derailed in three plunged down into that 30 foot ravine below. Because of its isolated location, authorities had a hard time reaching the Sunset Limited at the site of the accident. Because I had mentioned I want you to think about the rural location and Little House on the Prairie right? Beth 09:47 Right. Deb 09:47 Authorities couldn't get to them very well. Local farmers were the first to arrive to assist the injured. Because of the location, most of the emergency personnel were volunteers. I don't know if you know of any towns, Beth, where maybe the fire department strictly runs on volunteers because the town is so small. Beth 10:07 Yes. Deb 10:08 This is pretty much the area that it happened. The emergency personnel was required to make a temporary road just to get to the scene of the accident. Beth 10:18 Wow. Deb 10:19 As investigations continued federal agents found something called a derailleur on some of the tracks. Think about metal on metal, Beth. I don't know if you can imagine that sound. Beth 10:30 Yes. Deb 10:31 Somebody had enough insight to call the police but I'm going to assume that this took place at an odd hour. I've never seen anybody working on the tracks have you? So I'm thinking this had to have taken place at a very odd hour for that person to say something was suspicious and to call it in, maybe it was just out of place just a bit. Beth 10:42 No. Right. Deb 10:52 I'm going to explain to you what a derailleur is because of course, I had to go look this up, Beth 11:00 Right. I didn't know what it was. Deb 11:03 Inquiring minds want to know. Well, guess what? today's your lucky day. Deb's here to tell you what a derailleur is. Beth 11:09 All right. Deb 11:10 It's used to either put the trains back on the track or to stop runaway trains, which I thought was interesting. The best way I can describe this Beth, it reminds me of a car jack. Only in this case, t's a metal contraption that clamps to the railroad track itself. I thought what this thing's able to lift a train back onto the tracks? I can see it de- railing something. Anything left on the tracks can make a train go off. Beth 11:41 You mean those pennies that dad used to have us put on the train track, it was dangerous? Deb 11:47 I don't think that small would make a difference. Obviously it didn't. Beth 11:50 No. Deb 11:50 Let's hope not. We never heard anything on the news, Beth 11:53 But it was fun! Deb 11:54 It was fun! I love that memory. Thank you Beth. I'd forgotten about that. So this derailleur, it clamps to the railroad track and it's relatively small considering how big the railcar is that you're trying to either put back on the tracks or stop. And regardless Beth, of course, I went one step further. And I discovered that you can actually buy one of these derailleurs for as little as $135 US currency today. Beth 12:27 That's terrible. I think they should have them banned. Deb 12:31 Yeah, you're right. I mean, who's going to need a derailleur for any purpose besides working with the railroads and having an issue to you as a railroad issued tool? Right? Beth 12:42 Right. Deb 12:43 When the derailleur was discovered authorities could not determine if it had belonged to the terrorist attack on the Sunset Limited or if it was just a copycat. Okay, I have to stop there for a moment because Why do people think that it is okay to copycat these things, Beth? Beth 13:02 I suppose that they're going to be getting some fame, get in the news. Deb 13:07 Then why don't they just step forward? Because copycats never expose themselves. Beth 13:12 Question. Are you going to give me the answer? Deb 13:15 I don't have the answer today. Let's walk through some of the passenger accounts to the incident that occurred ironically Beth, several passengers were holding a discussion about terrorist attacks in the United States during their commute on this train. Beth 13:34 That's weird. Yeah, I think partially Beth, it was because of the high terroristic activities that were going on during that era. Passengers were wondering why nobody had sabotaged a train yet. True. Deb 13:49 What are your thoughts on that? Beth 13:50 You're right. We never hear it when you brought the story to me today. I was shocked to hear that that was being sabotaged. I didn't think train whatever be sabotaged. Deb 14:02 So true. Really has not happened very much in history. We don't want history repeating itself, that's for sure. Beth 14:09 No, and it certainly hasn't been in the news at all. Deb 14:12 No. Can I assume that you believe in premonitions? Beth 14:16 For sure. Deb 14:17 Yeah, me too. Have you ever had one? Beth 14:19 I did have a premonition when I was a kid. Mum smoked, and there was a contest in the cigarette packages back when I was eight years old. And I looked at mom and I says you're gonna win something tonight from your cigarettes. I just felt a really strong feeling. I went to bed and mom came in and woke me up and she says, "How did you know?" And I said, "God told me." Deb 14:46 So God condones smoking. Beth 14:48 No, he just told me that mom was going to win something. That's just so random. Deb 14:53 Very. I've had to that I can very clearly say that I have full recollection of premonitions. You really want to hear them? Beth 15:02 Yeah, I want to hear them. Deb 15:04 Folks, we won't be long. Okay, premonition number one. When we were moving from Canada to the United States. I had to go get some papers for mum to sign so that I would be withdrawn from school. They told me to bring the papers back the next day but the Secretary in the front office of our high school told me to go sit in the principal's office and just wait for him because he was not there at the moment but had she wanted me to wait. Okay, are you ready for this? I was sitting there looking at a picture on his desk of the principal and his family. You don't really speak out loud but the thought went through my head, "I wonder what his family is going to do when he dies?" I spoke with him that day. I took the papers home. Mum signed them. I brought them back and I walked into the office and I asked for the principal. The Secretary looked at me with shock in her eyes. And she said, "Did you not hear and of course, what should I have heard? He died last night. Beth 16:07 Oh my gosh. Deb 16:09 That was premonition number one. Premonition number two, are you ready for this one on ready? Do you wear your seatbelt? Beth 16:16 Yes. Deb 16:16 All the time? Beth 16:17 Yes, dad taught us to. Deb 16:19 Absolutely. So of course I wear my seatbelt. Now. This is one time that I worked the night shift and I was coming home. It was probably around three o'clock in the morning. And for some reason, Beth, I swear to goodness, I did not want to wear my seatbelt. I was being rebellious. I had no intentions of putting my seatbelt on. But the night was foggy. There was an eerie feeling in the air. It was almost too silent. And I kept driving home it was probably a 30 minute drive. I probably got about halfway home and I said okay, you know what, I gotta put my seatbelt on because I had a very weird feeling. As I got closer to home, I was literally within I don't know maybe a mile of my house. I was going - you know how the roads are in Georgia. They're really windy. They're up and down. So I was traveling the last road to my house. And by the time I reached about half a mile from the house, I literally said "I need to slow down." I just came to a real slow crawl on the way home and as I was going down this big dip coming up around the bend, Beth, I heard a command. It just said stop and no joke as soon as I came around that bend at three o'clock in the morning or 3:30 At that time, there was a big truck sitting on my side of the road with its bright lights on. Beth 17:44 My goodness. Deb 17:45 Isn't that something? Beth 17:47 It is, like did you literally hear that command in your head? Deb 17:51 I literally heard a command that said stop. Beth 17:55 Wow. Deb 17:56 I just sat there for a moment. I remember seeing a driveway to my right. I turned my head to back up and that car turned its bright lights off swung, around me very very quickly and revved its engine and kept going. Beth 18:11 Now that is really weird. Eerie. Were you scared? Deb 18:15 I was not scared but the word that you just said eerie. That eerie feeling followed me home from work all the way to that stopping point. You know for the next couple days, Beth I was looking along that route to see if there were any dead bodies in the ditch. Beth 18:31 Wow, that's really freakish. But I do believe that there is a reason for everything. And when it's your time, it's your time and that wasn't your time. Deb 18:42 Yep, I agree. Very well said Beth. I think we're going to touch on that in just a little bit. Okay, folks, back to our story. I hope you liked that premonition or two. Let me find my spot. Okay. I don't even know if I can call this an accident, but when the accident occurred, passengers on the train recall being awakened by a horrific sound of brakes grinding on the tracks. It sounded like a really loud shriek. I know you know what that sound is? Beth 19:11 Yes. Deb 19:12 They then recall being slammed into the seats in front of them and all the lights on the train went off all at once. One passenger described the derailment as like the train was lifting, then tilting sideways very slowly and then dropping really fast. Have you ever been to Six Flags with me? Beth 19:32 Yes. Deb 19:33 It reminds me of a ride that you would see at Six Flags only worse Beth. Could you imagine being in an isolated area like that without warning and something like this were to happen? Beth 19:46 No. Deb 19:47 Me neither. And how awful it would be to be in pitch black not knowing what just happened? Beth 19:52 Exactly. Deb 19:54 Many of the passengers had to crawl out of the windows to escape the wreckage. This happened to be a night with a full moon so passengers were able to see quite a bit out there or at least use flashlights to help each other in the dark. Passengers tied sheets together to help pull other passengers out of the cars. Others climbed into the dark and cars just to look for injured passengers. Beth they all just stuck together on this which is a beautiful thing. Beth 20:23 Yes, good teamwork. Deb 20:26 Within hours of the derailment, about 60 passengers were transported to the local area hospitals. Somewhere around 20 passengers were flown to area hospitals via helicopter with critical injuries. Other passengers were transported, get this Beth via the four railway cars that were not damaged from this derailment. Would you want to get back on that train? Beth 20:51 No way Jose. Deb 20:53 I know that's why I won't get on John's motorcycle anymore. I had my spill not getting back on that horse. Beth 21:00 No, please don't. Deb 21:02 Well, believe it or not. Most of the passengers didn't even panic. They remained their composure throughout the whole entire incident in rescue. How awesome is that? Beth 21:12 Awesome, very unique. Deb 21:14 Very, I'm going to move on to the manifesto. And I don't know if you know what that is Beth. Beth 21:20 No, I don't. Deb 21:21 A Manifesto is basically making a proclamation of something. So something in written form proclaiming something. Does that make sense? Beth 21:29 Yes, totally. Deb 21:31 Okay, when the de railing first occurred, Amtrak workers asked passengers to stay put. That means that they wanted them to stay in the cars likely to keep up with people, I can imagine. After about an hour the cars began to get very warm since the electricity had gone out. Passengers began exiting to get some fresh air. Understood, I'd probably do the same thing. A couple of the passengers from the Sunset Limited stated that they came across two separate sheets of clean white typewritten papers held underneath some rocks just outside of the derailment site. How odd would that be? Out of place? Right? Beth 22:12 Very. I'm sure that they were very interested in seeing what it was. Deb 22:17 They sure were because some of them picked up the letters and began reading them. What would you do in that situation? If you came across some random papers underneath some rocks? Would you pick them up? Beth 22:26 Well, I'm a little nosy. Deb 22:29 Okay. I would probably do the same thing. But then I think that, obviously they realized that the papers that were there were in connection to the derailment. The passengers described what was written inside of these letters as some sort of sick poetic justice against law enforcement and one passenger describe it as a poem to the martyrs. Beth 22:54 I never knew what a murderer was. I've heard that word being used continuously. Deb 22:58 I would describe a murderer Beth as giving up your life for a purpose. So in this case, whoever wrote these letters was using a passenger train as their motive. The author of this manifesto named it indictment of the ATF and the FBI. What is ATF, you ask? It's the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. So they have a bureau for everything. Beth 23:29 Yeah, sounds like it. Yeah, that sounds like an idea. Deb 23:31 The manifesto was named indictment of the ATF and the FBI. Excerpts of the letter mentioned and I quote, "people sleeping upstairs while kerosene lamps burned below". Whoever the author was blamed local, state and federal law enforcement for everything because they "wouldn't restore the electricity." They were referencing the Branch Davidian and Ruby Ridge. Basically Beth, both the Branch Davidian and Ruby Ridge, there was a group of people that were being investigated for firearms, and they didn't go down well, let's put it that way. Reference was made regarding a police officer's wife who was shot because she knew too much about drug kickbacks. That to me was a little random. One of the surviving passengers from Sunset Limited stated in an interview that she was walking along the tracks when she witnessed a man with ginger hair and a beard guarding the manifesto. This person was never later identified, and I do not believe he was on that train. Beth, I don't really know to the extent of who this man was because I really could not find anything more than just to say that there was somebody guarding the letters. The motive for the Amtrak sabotage was still unclear as to whether it was a personal grudge against the government or just some other wackadoodle that was out there terrorizing people. Some sources believe that this attack might have been an insider job by a disgruntled railway employee, because there was a theory based on the fact that the portion of the tracks that was sabotaged, was owned by Southern Pacific Railroad, which was close to reaching an agreement to merge with Union Pacific. This would have been a huge financial gain for the railroad companies, but was expected, as usual, when mergers happen, layoffs would occur. It could be that somebody had a grudge knowing that there would be layoffs. On another note, the reason authorities believe that this attack could have been against the government is because they found that manifesto, which was a declaration of action at the crime scene, and it criticized law enforcement at both the local and federal level. Yeah, so they have two theories here. It's either a grudge against gun control or a grudge against the railroad lines. Beth 26:09 Wow. I can't believe that nobody was found guilty. Deb 26:13 Well, I'll tell you what we'll never know or we might but to this day, we don't know. Whoever the person or persons that were responsible for the Sunset Limited derailment signed the manifesto, the Sons of Gestapo. And for our listeners that don't know, Gestapo is known for two things. One is a secret police known during World War Two and is associated with the Nazi Party in Germany. A Gestapo is also known as a secret police that uses terroristic acts against people who are considered disloyal. So either way, this definitely sounds more and more like somebody's holding a grudge. According to authorities, there are no terroristic groups that go by this name. And no extremists have ever come forward to take ownership of this sabotage. This is the only time the sons of Gestapo has ever been given a reference or since the 1995 attack. So let's talk about the suspect. And I could only find one suspect on the FBI list, Beth? Beth 27:24 Okay. Deb 27:25 This was a man named John Olin. And over the past 27 years or so, he was a contractor for Southern Pacific and he was considered to be very hot tempered, belligerent and abrasive to those who came in contact with him. Following the sabotage, Olin bragged that this was something he would have easily been able to pull off. He lived in the small town of Hyder Arizona, where the derailment occurred, and Olan had a criminal record of burglary, but also faced murder and robbery charges in the past. The FBI went ahead and conducted a very thorough search and in December of 1995, nothing was found to make any charges stick on John Olan. So there you go, that is the case of the Amtrak sabotage of 1995. And I will mention, it seems to me back that anywhere before the year 2000, people got away with a lot more. Once DNA was introduced, everything seems to have minimized. I'm not gonna say that it's prevented a lot of things like this, but it's at least minimized. Well, I've looked high and low for the transcript of the manifesto, but I had no luck. So basically, I was only able to piece together what was inside of that from passenger accounts that were there that night. And I'm also thinking that the FBI is holding on to this as a little nugget in case a suspect is ever identified. Beth 29:04 Right? Deb 29:05 Yeah. I searched high and low but I could not find anything on this. Like I said, I could basically piece it together based on the articles that I found. I will also mention that passengers eventually filed a lawsuit against Amtrak in 2001. So that would have been six years after the incident? Stating that the trains engineers should have been able to see any damage up the tracks before the train derailed. What do you think? Beth 29:32 I beg to differ. Deb 29:33 Why? Beth 29:34 Because it's so far away and with them not expecting to see anything, especially out in the rural area, you can't anticipate every 30 seconds that there's going to be something there. Deb 29:49 Well, let me tell you what was in the lawsuit. According to legal documents, the engineers should have been able to see the tracks at least 500 feet or 152.4 meters ahead with those locomotive lights. I described to you earlier what a locomotive was so it's that very front machine that has those really bright lights coming up the tracks? However, I wanted to put 500 feet or 152.4 meters into perspective for you, because I had to do this for myself. That is about the distance of one and a half football fields, two city blocks or five streetlights that are separated the distance between each other. So the next time you go up the road, Beth, along the block, I want you to count five of those the next time you go to the city. Beth 30:43 Okay. Deb 30:43 When you get to the first one, count up five, that's how far the lawyers were saying that the engineers should have been able to see the tracks. And remember at the very beginning of this podcast, I had mentioned that they went around a curve. And as they turn the corner around that curve is where they derailed. Well, the lawsuit was rejected by a Ninth Circuit Judge saying that there was no evidence to support that claim. That makes sense. Alright for inquiring minds, the section of the tracks were Sunset Unlimited derailed, still exists but is no longer in use. If you were to travel the area today where the 1995 attack occurred, you'd still be able to see evidence of the derailment. For instance, if you ever come upon an exit ramp somewhere and you see a big concrete foundational wall? That was destroyed and then part of the bridge was destroyed. They just never repaired that. Hundreds of people have been interviewed since 1995. But the motive for this attack is still unclear. And as of today, the FBI has an outstanding reward for $320,000 for anyone who can offer information on this case. So I have one final thought Beth. You know, I always have to go back to the victims. I'm gonna go back to Mitchell Bates. He was the one person who died in this incident. Mitchell had no living relatives at the time of his death and Amtrak officials made a public statement about him saying that they were standing up as his Amtrak family. Beth 31:06 Right. Awww. Deb 32:28 I just gave myself some goosebumps. That's so sad. Okay. Now I want to ask you that question of how many train accidents do you believe have occurred anywhere in the United States since the 1970s? Take a guess. Beth 32:47 1000? Deb 32:47 Oh, gosh, no. Only 74 but that's 74 to many. Beth 32:52 Yes, it is. Deb 32:53 And honestly, the number has decreased significantly in the past five years. So let's go back to that train ride I'm going to be taking a couple months. I feel relatively safe getting on the train. Beth 33:07 And so you should. Deb 33:08 Yeah. So to our listeners if you have any information on the October 9 1995 Amtrak derailment in Hyder, Arizona, you can contact 1-800-Call FBI or 1-800-225-5324. On a closing note train travel is considered to be very safe. Most accidents do occur because of vehicles being on the tracks as a train approaches. Otherwise train transportation is considered to be very safe. Like I said before, this story today is not going to keep me from getting on the train. But of course you can always say a prayer for me. Beth 33:54 I will. Deb 33:55 I'll say one for you when the next time you go up to visit Sarah. All right, any closing thoughts? Beth 34:00 Do you have a teachable moment? Deb 34:03 When do I NOT have a teachable moment?! So listen. I don’t have a ton to say in connection to this case. I do, however, encourage our listeners to go out and live your best life without worrying about “what if’s.” What I mean by that is, don’t let fear stop you from going after what you want or where you go. I think that fear stopped me quite a bit when I was younger, but today, I don’t worry about the small stuff. All these statistics say that one way to travel is safer than the other, but at this point, I’m going for the experience. I believe when it’s my time to go, it’s my time to go. So why should I hold back because I’m fearful that something could happen. Do I take precautions, sure. It would be stupid not to. But get out and enjoy life. Don’t let fear get in the way or limit you. That's my TEACHable moment today Beth. Beth 35:05 Thanks, Deb. So I think it's time to say that's a wrap. Deb 35:09 That is a wrap. Thanks to our listeners, for joining us today and listening to Dying to be Found. Before we go, we’d love for you to leave a review on your favourite podcast platform. 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