What Cries Out Podcast 00:13 Hi, this is what cries out. I'm Cassandra the daughter and I'm Diane the mom. We are a mother daughter podcast who love all things true crime. Join us as we explore the boundaries of humanity and take a deep dive into the edges of society where the darkness lies. Each month we will focus on a case that cries out to us sometimes be shared generationally opposing views, or push our own minds to that edge. But we do this to bring souls into remember it's all while bringing a social issue to light. This is what cries out. Deb 00:47 Hi, everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and/or humankind. Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences, due to the content nature of this podcast. Listener discretion is strongly advised. Hi, everyone. I'm Deb. Beth 01:23 And I'm Beth. Deb 01:24 And we want to welcome you to episode number 32 of Dying to be Found. We, as always, are so glad that you're here today. Before we get started. I wanted to give a shout out to our newest podcasting friends Cassandra and Diane. They are from the podcast, What Cries Out." And I'll tell you, once I started listening to their first episode, Beth, I was hooked. Beth 01:49 Yeah, I think it's really awesome. And it's nice to have some new friendships. Deb 01:55 Yeah, well, they are a mum and daughter duo. And I really love how they put a lot of thought and insight into their episodes. If you get a chance, be sure to check them out. Beth 02:06 Please do. Deb 02:07 I don't have a whole lot to go into today. But Beth, I wanted to check in with you as always, and I heard you're going camping this week. Beth 02:14 Yes. I love camping. Deb 02:17 Listen. I was wondering after the amount of camping trips that we went on as kids, I'm kind of surprised that you still like this lifestyle. I haven't been camping in years and I'm okay with that. Beth 02:31 Well, I think I can really relate to dad. My personality and I'm very much like him. So I have the love for the outdoors. And this time we're actually going to take the trailer up to a park. Deb 02:45 Oh, cool. I do love the outdoors. I think back a couple episodes ago when we were talking about Meredith Emerson. I did mention that I knew the Appalachian Trail very well because I do like to hike. I'm more of a day person outdoors because me personally, I like to have a shower and I have to have a mattress. I'm just not into tents anymore. Beth 03:07 Did you think we were going tenting? Deb 03:08 No, because I've known you long enough to know that you have a camper which is cool. Beth 03:12 Yes. So we have a shower in there. Deb 03:15 Oh, I didn't know that. Beth 03:17 Yes. Deb 03:18 Holy cow. Beth 03:19 We do have a mattress too. Deb 03:21 Well, good. Then maybe I'll come visit you one day. So listen, I don't really have a whole lot going on and I'm going to go ahead and get started if that's okay with you. But I do want to ask you to bear with me today. Because I don't know if you can tell I'm getting over a cold. So my voice may go in and I but I'll do my best just bear with me today. Beth 03:45 All I know you're going to do well. Deb 03:47 Today we're going to talk about Barbra Jean and Patricia Kathleen Grimes, two sisters who were born in Cook County, Illinois. Barbara was born on May 5 1941 and was a sophomore in high school. In case our listeners don't know what a sophomore is, that's grade 10. Honestly, Beth, I don't remember if in Canada ifthey go with freshman, sophomore, junior, senior Beth 04:11 No. Deb 04:12 So that's grade 10. Patricia, also known as Petey by her family, was born on December 31 in 1943, and she was in grade seven. Here in America, they have middle schools, so she would be considered a middle school student. Barbara and Patricia's parents were Loretta and Joseph Grimes who, spoiler alert, at the time of the girl's disappearance, they had been divorced for around 11 years or so. For the rest of the story, we're really going to be talking more about Loretta Grimes, who is Barbara and Patricia's mother because this is who they were living with when they disappeared, and who was the primary caregiver in future interviews pertaining to the story. I want to start off by asking you, do you ever remember watching all those old Elvis movies that were out on TV when we were kids? Beth 05:08 Yes. And oh, how I love them. Deb 05:11 I think Elvis is a really good actor. You'd have to go back and look but still even today, I think he would be. And I love that he put his career on hold to serve in the military. Just in the past couple of years, I've really started listening to a lot of his music and it's ageless, Beth. Beth 05:29 Yeah, I haven't listened to him and years. Deb 05:33 I think if you go back and listen to him now you might be surprised with how much you love it. Beth 05:38 I'll go back for sure. Deb 05:40 Yeah, What is the highest number of times that you have ever gone to see a movie at the theater more than once? Beth 05:47 I saw Prince's Purple Rain six times. Six times. So you spent money on movie theater tickets six times. Yes. Deb 05:58 Wow. Okay. Beth 06:00 We even went to his concert. It was the Purple Rain tour in Detroit. Deb 06:10 Oh my gosh, I used to blast Purple Rain in my dorm room in college! I'm sure my neighbors hated me for that. But I was so into his music. I've never seen him in concert though. How was it? Beth 06:25 So awesome. I even still have the CD for it. And I do listen to it because he's one of my favorite artists. Wow. That's a lot. Deb 06:32 Yeah, he is so good. I definitely came of age with him. Well, putting that into perspective. I wanted to see what your thoughts were on that because Barbara and Patricia were diehard Elvis Pressley fans. At the time, they had the same mindset as you did with Prince, and on that December day they went to go see Love Me Tender at a Brighton Park movie theater in Illinois, the day they disappeared. I can't say that I ever remember paying for a movie twice. But by the time I was a teenager we could rent videos from Blockbuster. I probably rented a few more than once because Barbara and Patricia were such avid Elvis fans they had seen Love Me Tender at least 10 times before they love to see it again on December 8. Yeah, some of the articles I read said anywhere up to 15 times but I'll just say at least 10 times before they left to go see it again on December 8 of 1956. Basically, they pestered their mother Loretta so much that she finally conceded and allowed the girls to go see the movie one more time and the theater was probably about 20 minutes from their home by taking a public bus transit system. I will say that Loretta was a bit hesitant, given the fact obviously that the girls had already seen the movie so many times, but also being a single mother, money was tight. Especially around the holiday season. Regardless, Loretta gave her girls enough money for the bus ride movie tickets and to buy something from the concession stands. Beth 08:17 That was sweet because it's so expensive. Deb 08:19 I mean, even back in the day, the movie tickets themselves were about $1.50 for a double feature. I know that does not seem a lot at this times. But if you were to calculate how much it was today, I'm sure it's probably just as much as movie tickets are now. Both girls boarded the bus to go to the theater and Brighton Park, Illinois. And like I said, they had saved up enough money in addition to what their mother gave them so that they could go see a double feature. The distance between the movie theater and their home was about six miles or 9.65 kilometers. So again, maybe about a 20 minute bus ride from their home to the theater. Barbara and Patricia Grimes disappeared on December 8 1956, when Barbara was just 15 and Patricia was 12. A lot of the articles that I read said she was 13 years old, but I will say that she was just shy of her birthday, because when they disappeared, it was December 8. But I said earlier her birthday was December 31. So it was her birthday month and she was still 12 years old. One of their friends later said that they had seen both girls standing in line to buy popcorn in between the two movies. Remember I had said this was a double feature. Okay, the girls finished the movie and we're on their way home to McKinley Park when they went missing. Loretta had always said that Barbara and Patricia were very reliable and had a habit of always coming home in time to make curfew. So when they didn't show up by midnight, Loretta sent her other children Teresa, age 17 And Joey, age 14 out to the bus stop to see if they could find the girls. Barbara and Patricia's siblings waited at the bus stop until 2am, Beth. Loretta had expected the girls to be home probably by midnight. What her other kids had done is they watched the bus run its route for three full cycles.mAnd that would mean them sitting on the park bench or the bus stop, then watching as the bus came up with three different bus cycles. Probably, what, once per hour? Beth 10:36 Yes, I would guess that. Deb 10:37 Yeah, I mean, I'm just thinking back to when I used to run the transit when I was growing up. Cathie and I used to go out on the bus system all the time. But I'll tell you about that in a bit. I think I have a story about that. It might be my teachable moment. Well, no such luck. The girls never showed up by 2am and the other kids made their way back home. This is when Loretta called the police to report her daughter's missing because, like I said, she knew her kids and she knew their behaviors. She knew their patterns. She knew immediately her kids had gone missing. Now Beth, what is the standard answer police give to parents when teenagers don't show up when they're supposed to? Beth 11:18 The are a runaway. Deb 11:19 Yes, exactly. This is what the police told Loretta. Because of their ages, the police did begin an immediate investigation, but did treat the case as the girls running away. So get this once - the police were told that Barbara and Patricia were avid Elvis fans, Beth, they assumed the girls ran away to Nashville, But this was 470 miles away, and they felt that the girls were going to track down Elvis personally. How crazy is that? Beth 11:51 All those miles away and two young girls with no money. I know. And we'll talk about this in a minute. Loretta felt the same way. She had only given her kids enough money to go to the movie theater. But in the meantime, this story eventually went national and Elvis Presley himself caught wind of the case of the two missing girls. On January 19, 1957, Elvis went on national television to make a plea for the girls to return home and to stop their mom from worrying about them. Now, I had tried to look this up Every Which Way But Loose but I could not find any recordings whatsoever. I was hoping I would be able to put that into our recording today. I just couldn't find anything that was not in print. All right. In the meantime, multiple tips were beginning to come in around the girls were about the night they disappeared. Beth, I'm going to tell you upfront, they're a little wacky, not all of them. I mean, if you were to hear one or two here or there, they make sense, but there are at least 10 tips coming in and they're kind of all over the place. So let it go through this list with you. Then I'll get your thoughts. Okay. Deb 13:06 Yes. So I had mentioned Barbara and Patricia's friend had seen them in line at the concession stand at the movie theater. Okay. That's plausible, right? Beth 13:16 Yes, for sure. Deb 13:18 Another neighbor had said that she and her younger sisters sat with the girls at the movie theater. Again, understandable. Sure, they're going to meet up with people their age that are going to see the same movie. Sure. Now several other teenagers who were at the movie theater believe they saw the girls get into a car with a man that looked like Elvis. I don't get it. That one. I don't find believable. Beth 13:46 No, these girls just wanted maybe in the limelight a little bit. Deb 13:50 The teenagers or Patricia and Barbara? Beth 13:53 The teenagers. Deb 13:54 Yeah, exactly. So I think they probably had good intentions. But hold that thought because we're going to come back to that in just a bit. Other people spotted Barbara and Patricia getting into a maroon car with two men. One bus driver on the road between Brighton Park and McKinley Park set. The girls were on his bus around 11 o'clock pm so they could have been making their way home from the movie theater at that time. A security guard also said at some point he had given the girls directions. That is all I could find on that one point. But there's a lot of interactions going on here with people in the community where they're getting directions from that is not clear. A restaurant owner saw the girls and said that Patricia was staggering just a bit. She needed help walking that to me sounds like she could have been partaking in alcohol. I do want to tell you none of these tips, other than the girls being seen at the theater, I don't think a lot of this could be verified. But somebody did say that they saw the girls at a restaurant. A hotel clerk said the girls tried to rent a room that night that disappeared and a few more teenagers had said that they saw the girls walking just a few blocks from their home later at night. So again, Beth it's all over the place. Let me just tell you when more than it gets a little crazy on January 3. Tips came in from an eyewitness who said that they saw the Grimes girls out with two sailors who could be listening to Elvis music. Okay, that's a lot of people it is and then finally on January 9, a woman in Nashville Tennessee stated that she saw the girls in a public restroom and took them to an employment agency to look for work. This is where I'm going to ask you, what are your thoughts about all of these eyewitnesses? Beth 15:54 Well, there certainly is a lot of them and it could be possible the some of the tips certainly are unbelievable. The last one I thought was sounded really strange going to an employment agency to look for work. My thoughts on that are okay if they did run away to Tennessee, I suppose that could be plausible. And then of course, they would need to find work when they got there. So if they plan to stay there for a while, then absolutely they would need to get some money, right? Yes. Deb 16:25 Yeah, but this last rumor is what got the police believing that the Grimes girls had run off to Nashville to meet Elvis. Really? Yeah. While all of these eyewitness accounts were coming in poor Loretta, the girl's mother, she continued to receive anonymous calls from several wackadoodles, Beth. Plus multiple ransom notes that never really came to fruition. So she's being tortured inwardly because he got psychos coming out of the woodwork and they're really taking advantage of the situation. I don't understand why anybody would be so cruel as to torture a mother like this? I have no idea. That is, as you said, they're wackadoodles. Yeah, that kind of goes back to the Dorothy James Scott episode we did because her mother also received those anonymous calls and that is just so cruel. Beth 17:22 It is cruel. That was one thing I was thinking when you mentioned about these telephone calls. It went back to that case, okay. Deb 17:30 Well, with all of these eyewitnesses, police did begin to take this seriously and did begin treating the girl's disappearance as an abduction. They set up a task force and recruited hundreds of volunteers to come help look for both girls. On January 11, 1957, Loretta Grimes made a public plea in the Chicago newspapers to please bring her babies home. I cannot imagine this, Beth. Beth 17:58 No. And that seems like it's quite a while in between the time they went missing to January 11. Yeah, with all the leads coming in. I'm sure that she had a lot of hope. But this was probably six weeks later when they went missing on December 8. Everything changed when a man named Leonard Prescott was driving home from the grocery store coming down German Church Road in Willow Springs about 16 miles or 25 and three quarter kilometers from the Grimes home. This is the day bath when Leonard saw what he believed was two mannequins laying off the side of the road just on the other side of a guardrail by Devil's creek somewhere southeast of Chicago. I'm not sure how close this was to the girls home, but by the time Leonard reached his own hands, things just weren't settling with him very well. So he got his wife and they backtracked to the area where he had passed by what he thought was mannequins earlier. Wow. I'm glad he went back. Deb 19:04 Yeah, well, this is when the Prescotts made the discovery of two young girls lying naked by the creek frozen stiff from the elements. Beth 19:14 Oh my gosh, I feel my nose like it wants to have tears. That's a very sad story. Deb 19:22 Besides that, that the two bodies were very clean and they were soon identified as the missing Grimes girls. Beth 19:31 Definitely a suspicious incident for sure. Deb 19:35 And I did find conflicting stories on how the bodies were arranged, but they were inconsistent with the fact that one of the girls was laying on top of the other. Now, towards the end of my research, I went back and looked at some of the articles that I had seen and yes, I did see one of the pictures. But to be honest with you, it was just a bunch of police standing by that guardrail. It took me a minute to even notice the girls in the picture. What I did see was two girls arranged something like a T shape. One of the girls was laying on her left side and the other one was laying on top of her head, kind of like a capital T. Beth 20:15 Oh, for goodness sakes. Yeah. So that to me is a little unnatural. It just It does not seem like they would have been out in the elements. And maybe hypothermia took over. To me that was suspicious and how they were laid. Shannon was Joseph, the girl's father was the one who was called to identify the bodies. I can understand that I just I don't think I could ever do that if that were to ever happen to me. So Loretta stayed home and the girl's father came to identify them. Deb 20:45 Now let me talk about how they handled the case as far as the pathologists and the community. People went door to door asking if they had seen Barbara and Patricia. This was during their disappearance where they had not been discovered yet. 15,000 flyers were distributed in the local areas. Beth 21:07 Wow. Deb 21:07 Local authorities searched local waterways and canals and get this, Beth, they questioned over 300,000 people. Beth 21:17 Holy cow, that's the population of a city. Deb 21:21 You're right. I never thought of that. But I will say this is an accurate number because I do like to fact check. Beth 21:27 Yes, you do. And this number came up over and over again. On top of that, Beth, they interrogated 2000 suspects. That's a lot to get through. Deb 21:38 It is, and I'm going to say that goes back to all of those eyewitness accounts that I had just gone over because they certainly had a lot of leads to go by. But yeah, 2000 suspects. That's time consuming and I'm sure it's like going down the rabbit hole, for sure. Now, on the flip side, unfortunately, much of the crime scene was contaminated once authorities showed up and began investigating, because at least 160 police officers arrived on the scene and basically trampled through any potential evidence that was left at the scene or some log of police officers. Beth 22:18 Come on guys. Geez, I know and that is a lot of police officers to send to one scene. It is. A total of three pathologists examined Barbara and Patricia. They could not reach a consensus on the cause of death or the time of death for either girl. One pathologist believe that the girls were held for a long period of time and died shortly before their discovery. I'm going to have to say yes to that Beth. Because they were found in clean conditions. Their bodies were clean with this bemwhere they were trying to get a hotel room? That's a good thought. He did however, feel that the girls were abandoned at this point by Devil's Creek and died of hypothermia in the frigid elements. You have to remember that this is January in Chicago. And what is the nickname for that town? Do you know? Yes, I do. It's the Windy City. Yes. I will tell you there there was one time when I was flying with the airlines and, okay, so it was probably wintertime and well, I wouldn't say winter. It was probably early spring. Here where I live in the south, I could go outside because not everybody can. I'm from the north so, I actually liked the cold quite a bit, But I probably had light clothing when I went to go spend the night in Chicago. But holy cow, once I got there, Beth, I had to go find me some winter clothes because it truly held up its name Windy City. It was a bit chilly for me. Yeah, the when I researched HH Holmes, they talked in great part about the Windy City and how the factors of all the buildings that we're built helps to make it so frigid. Yeah, like a wind tunnel. Exactly. Yeah. Deb 24:06 Well, another coroner thought that the girls had been dropped by Devil's creek for several weeks before they were actually found. And so, that would be probably, Beth. I think that they had a lot of snow coming in and they might have been covered by snow for some time. But when they were found obviously they had thawing days where the temperatures were warmer, so everything began thawing out a bit. Ultimately, the girls deaths were ruled as hypothermia or exposure to extreme conditions because of the frigid temperatures during those winter months and icy conditions. The coroner's believed that the girls had been there for several days before they were discovered and that they had been contaminated by wild animals and I'll explain that in just a moment. Furthermore, police believe that the girls were there during those two days of heavy storms in the area between January 9th and 10th. But like I said earlier, the warmer weather uncovered them at some point. Now, does it seem natural that Patricia would be laying on top of her sister's head out there in those elements, Beth, if they were to have died from hypothermia? Beth 25:18 Most definitely not. No, because if you go look at those pictures to me, it just looks like they were arranged when they were discovered. Yeah, I think I'll go look at those photos. Deb 25:29 Let me know what you think. On January 23, 1957, Loretta was in another Chicago area newspapers saying "I tried to tell police my daughter's did not run away. They just wouldn't listen to me." She knew her girls, Beth, and said that if they had planned to run away, they would have at least had a little bit of money on them and a change of clothes. In addition to that, it was the holiday season. And Loretta believes that they would have also likely taken at least one Christmas gift that they received recently. But everything that they had received over the Christmas holiday the girls had left behind in their bedrooms. Beth 26:14 Yeah, that's clearly not a runaway. Deb 26:17 Loretta was also quoted later as saying, "My poor babies Why couldn't they have taken me and let my babies live? If the police had listened to me, they would have had the true story half an hour after the girls went missing." I had mentioned that she knows her daughter's and she called the police within hours of them not coming home on time. I mean, I honestly I don't know if the outcome would have been any different, Beth, but they certainly would not have gone almost a month of trying to track these girls down and then finding them out in the elements after a major snowstorm. Well, let me go on to the autopsies now. Both girls were taken to the coroner's office and they had to basically wait for the bodies to thaw out before they could be examined. Barbara showed evidence of blunt force trauma to her face and head. Beth 27:15 Oh Deb 27:16 Yeah. And also had wounds on her body that looked like rodent baits, which when they were found, Beth, remember how they had said that they were probably exposed to wild animals? Beth 27:28 Yes. Deb 27:29 In addition, Barbara also had puncture wounds most likely caused by an icepick. Beth 27:35 That's curious. The only thing I can think is did the, it's morbid, but were their bodies stored in a freezer? Deb 27:42 I never thought of that. You are so right. Well, none of the wounds on the girl's bodies were determined to have been the cause of death. So Barbara did have those puncture wounds, but not enough to kill her. And this is why authorities believe, or even the pathologist believe that exposure to the raw elements was determined to be the cause of death. In both cases. It also appeared that Barbara may have had sexual relations, or had been assaulted before her death, because there was evidence that she had sexual intercourse before her murder. Obviously, they could not determine if it was consensual or not. That's what they were kind of going with whe they determined that she had some sort of relations but couldn't determine that it was with consent. Now, Patricia also had bruises on her face and body and, get this Beth, she still had popcorn in her system, which if you remember, they were in line at the concession stand at the movie theater. So she still had that popcorn in her system, leaving some of the pathologists to believe that she had died within five hours of leaving the movie theater. That makes sense. Beth 29:02 It does totally make sense. Deb 29:04 What you just said makes sense because you had mentioned they may have been put in the freezer. That's not uncommon from True Crime episodes I've heard in the past, and ultimately the coroner's did conclude that the Grimes sisters likely died on or around December 28,1956, which was about three weeks after they disappeared. There's your contradiction. If Patricia had popcorn in her system, we know that that's going to go through your system within 24 hours. Why is it that the coroner's came up with the fact that they died three weeks after they disappeared? Beth 29:43 Yeah, that really piqued my interest. Deb 29:45 I couldn't find enough articles saying either way on the timeline of when they possibly died. I do try to be as accurate as possible. I'll just say they either died with between 24 hours and three weeks after they disappeared. That's all I can give you. So the question is,, where were they for three weeks? Beth 30:05 Yes. Deb 30:06 The police did come up with several suspects in this case, Beth. Benny Bedwell was age 21. He was a drifter who worked odd jobs in and around the Chicago area. He briefly served in the US Air Force and worked with a circus plus was a factory worker at the time the girls disappeared. Benny was employed part time as a dishwasher, and the restaurant owner believes that Bedwell was in the company of the two girls resembling Barbara and Patricia on December 30, just one day after the girls disappeared. Again, lots of contradictions here. Beth 30:48 Yes. Deb 30:49 Remember when I gave you the list of the eyewitnesses one of them reported seeing the girls with a man who resembled Elvis? Beth 30:57 Yes. Deb 30:58 It was Benny. Beth 30:59 He resembles Elvis? Deb 31:01 Yeah, I had to go look this picture up. The only resemblance that I saw, Beth was the same dark, hair slicked back in a 1950s haircut and remember, it was very common during that era, especially because Elvis wore it, and a lot of people during that era wore it just like he did. If you were to think in present terms. I don't know if you've ever heard of Justin Bieber. Beth 31:25 Yes, he's from... Deb 31:27 Hamilton. Beth 31:28 No, he's not from Hamilton. He's from Stratford. Deb 31:31 Right? Yeah, just think about that. This was only a decade ago. Do you remember how every single 12, 13, 14 year old boy had that Justin Bieber look? Beth 31:43 Yes. Deb 31:44 Same thing. Everybody during that era also had the Elvis look so, the resemblance I can see the black slicked back hair but that is as far as I can take it as far as him looking like Elvis. Now, when Benny was questioned by the police, he stated that he had met the two girls in a bar and that he and his friend spent about a week partying together with Barbara and Patricia somewhere between December 30 and January 7. Beth 32:16 That doesn't make sense, especially during Christmas time. Deb 32:19 Yeah, well, I mean, it was after Christmas and you know how things die. Down. Beth 32:23 True. Deb 32:24 And it was New Years. Beth 32:26 True. But this is just a crazy thought that the girls would put their mother through this for all that time. Deb 32:33 I know. Now, I will tell you this. Bedwell was eventually arrested for the Grimes girl's disappearance after he wrote a 14 page confession. Beth 32:45 Wow. Deb 32:46 In this confession, he stated that he and his accomplice who went unnamed, held the girls captive and fed them hot dogs and alcohol and later knocked the girls out, stripped them naked and dumped them out on the side of the road. And he could not be sure if they were alive or not when he had done this. Now remember, Beth, during the girls autopsies, one of the pathologist said that popcorn was there. Beth 33:14 Yes. I was wondering about that. Deb 33:16 Yeah, three pathologists in total had examined the girls and neither hot dogs nor alcohol were found in their systems. Let me just tell you what happens when you get in front of a police officer? Beth 33:31 Tell us. Deb 33:32 Bedwell, later recanted his confession and said that he had been coerced into making that 14 page statement under a promise that the police would let him go. Beth 33:44 I believe it. Deb 33:45 Yep. I can only imagine that he was probably there, he was exhausted. He probably went many hours without sleep. They were breathing down his neck. They basically said sign this and we'll let you go. And I mean, it's just a pattern. Beth 34:01 I have never understood why the police would hammer questions and questions to get a confession because that prevents further investigation into the crime and there can let the real criminal go. Deb 34:15 Yes, but I guess my take on that, I completely understand the direction you are coming from but my take with what you just said is basically that it looks good on the police department open and shut case quite rapidly? Beth 34:32 Right. Deb 34:33 They got their perpetrator very fast. So once all that is said and done, then it's definitely going to make the police department look like they did their job. Beth 34:42 Yes. Deb 34:43 When in all actuality when you're looking back on everything that I just said about the investigation, starting with the crime scene? I mean, they messed it up from the very start. Beth 34:53 They sure did. Deb 34:54 Yeah. So suspect number two is Max Fleigh,. age 17, who confessed to the murders Beth. But, because he was only sent - umm -- Now, I couldn't find any article saying how he was brought in as a suspect or why he even confessed in the first place. But I will tell you he was only 17, so he was not allowed to take a polygraph under Illinois law at the time. Police convinced him to take one anyway. And because he was given it illegally, they could not charge Fleigh with any crimes. Beth 35:33 Wow. Deb 35:34 Yeah. So that's all I could really find on this suspect. I have a third suspect by the name of Walter Krantz who was aged 53, and he was a steam fitter or pipe fitter. Also, Beth I thought you'd get a kick out of this. He said that he was a psychic. What do you think of that? Beth 35:53 Get out! Deb 35:54 Yeah. Beth 35:56 You know, I believe in them. Deb 35:57 Oh, yeah, I'm still gonna go to a psychic. One day just because I just need to see at this point if they're going to be accurate about anything in my future. I know the Big Eight Ball is darned accurate. Have you ever played with an eight ball? No, I know what it is. I've never played with it. Okay, so Walter Krantz told the police during an anonymous call on January 15 that the girls were dead and he saw where their bodies were in his dream. The police later traced the call to his home and also connected him with one of those ransom notes I had mentioned that was sent to Loretta Grimes home earlier. So he's the wackadoodle and he denied any involvement in the girl's disappearance but was eventually released, I suppose, because they really couldn't find anything else besides the fact that he was a little out there. Beth 37:00 Yes, Deb 37:01 I do have a question. Because again, okay, I'm starting to see patterns in just about everything that we talk about. So why was he not arrested for the ransom notes? Beth 37:11 That's what I'm wondering too. Deb 37:14 Okay. The last suspect is Charles Melquist, a confessed child killer, Beth. Back in 1957, he had killed a young girl named Bonnie Lee Scott. And he also placed an anonymous call to Loretta to say that he was the one who had killed her girls. So going back to Bonnie Lee Scott. She was actually found less than one mile from where the Grimes girls were found. She was also naked. Beth 37:45 And that can't be too much of a coincidence. Deb 37:48 Exactly. Well, Melquist was found guilty of Bonnie's murder back in 1959, and did receive a 99 year sentence for her murder, but he died before he could be identified as Barbara and Patricia's killer Beth 38:04 Oh dear. Deb 38:05 Yeah, authorities believe that Melquist is the most likely suspect and the strongest one in this case, but they, unfortunately, were not able to get him to confess to that before he died. After the girls were found the community did come together. The city of Chicago held a fundraiser to help pay Lorenzo's mortgage and funeral expenses for both girls. The Walshlager funeral home? It still operates today, Beth. It donated its services to the family, so yes, they probably have to pay for caskets, but the services themselves, the service director waived all fees that were connected to the funeral home Beth 38:51 Wonderful. Deb 38:52 Yes. And even the mayor at the time, Mayor Richard Daley, attended Barbara and Patricia's funeral, Beth, I did see another picture in the newspapers here that showed hundreds upon hundreds, even 1000s of people attending the girls funeral. Beth 39:10 Did they? Wow. Deb 39:12 Oh yes. On January 26, 1957, both Barbara and Patricia were buried at the Holy Sepulchre Catholic cemetery in Chicago, next to one of their sisters, Leona. Unfortunately, Loretta Grimes died in 1989 at the age of 83 without ever knowing what happened to her babies. Beth 39:37 That really hurts when children go before a parent and I know that it would be on Loretta his mind all the time. Deb 39:46 Oh, yes. And not to have closure, you know, but at least she went to go be with her babies. Beth 39:51 Yeah. Deb 39:52 Well to this day, this case remains unsolved. Police still believe today that they can solve this case and they just need people to come forward. Keep in mind now this case occurred somewhere around 65 years ago at this point, but if there were enough witnesses still around today, sure. I mean, it would be great to be able to close this case. I don't know how realistic that is. Beth 40:16 Yeah, I agree with you being realistic because DNA didn't appear back then. And the mess of the crime scene, just too many things. Deb 40:28 Oh, yeah. So that is the case of the Elvis Presley fans, Barbara and Patricia Grimes. And there you have it. Beth 40:38 Well, thanks, Deb. That was a very good story. And you really delved into that information really well. Deb 40:45 Thank you. Beth 40:46 So Deb, what's our teachable moment today? Deb 40:49 Well, I do have a teachable moment. And Beth, with so many things that have changed since this case occurred in 1956, remember when we lived in the big city before I moved to the States in that condo? Beth 41:04 Yes Deb 41:05 Before we moved, I told you earlier this was going to be my teachable moment. Cathie and I used to ride all over the city on public transportation and It shocks me that you don't know this. Beth 41:15 I don't know why I didn't it. I think at that time, though, remember you're older than me. So you are working at the hospital, or at least you started candy striping when you were 16 Oh yes. Deb 41:28 So you are already in the working world. I was still in high school. Beth 41:32 True. Deb 41:33 We would go to the roller rink. We would go to the movie theater, because I remember going to see Grease with Cathie. Beth 41:41 Yes I did too. I took out one of my best friends to see Grease for her birthday. And to this day we're still friends. Deb 41:49 Oh, I love that. Yeah, so I remember going, just like the Grimes girls did. Cathie and I were exactly like that. We were inseparable and we would go all over the place. We go to restaurants across town. We went shopping downtown, all sorts of things. We just had a lot of fun together. Unknown Speaker 42:08 That's good. Deb 42:09 Yeah, just like the Grimes girls. We always came home when we were supposed to and I, in my recollection, do not ever remember showing up late in Barbara in Patricia's case, the buddy system wasn't enough. Look at how many people saw the Grime sisters at the movie theater., and even in route to that movie theater. In this day and age kids, have cell phones but they don't use them properly for anything more than a mobile computer. And that's the key word, Beth. Mobile - It's a mobile phone. They still call it that, but kids today don't use it for that. Pick up the phone. Call your parents and tell them where you are along the way. Of course, we do you have that life 360 now. That's helpful. But, back in the day, you and I had payphones Beth. Beth 43:00 Yes, we did. Deb 43:01 Yeah, life is easier now, and there's no reason why you can't give your exact location or the extra stops that you're planning along the way. I say unless you're a parent, I don't think that you can fully grasp the importance of communicating with your mom or dad. Don't text pick up the phone and call. There are too many cases where perpetrators use cell phones to impersonate victims through texts. Go the extra mile and talk to your parents or loved ones to know your plans or estimated time of arriva, In itself, Beth, I think that can help save a life and that's my teachable moment. Beth 43:41 I like that. Thank you. It really resonates with me because I see all the kids texting their parents and calls don't come. Do you know that kids today don't even know how to dial a phone? Really? Deb 43:54 No joke. I've talked to kids to say here use the phone on the wall and they're like, how do you dial? I'm like, what? Are you - let's have a listen on that, shall we? Okay, so with that being said, Beth, I'm gonna give you your cue Beth 44:12 And that's a wrap. Deb 44:14 That is a wrap. Thanks, everyone for listening to Dying to be Found. Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. That really does help us in our rankings. And be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to be Found. You can access our website, email, social media, and storyline request form by clicking on our Link Tree account found in our show notes. If you like our episodes, please consider buying us a coffee at Buymeacoffee.com/dyingtobefound, spelled just like you see on our logo. Feel free to message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing. Be sure to check back with us every Thursday wherever you get your podcasts, and we will talk to you next week. Beth 45:02 Bye References: Bovsun, M. (2016). Sixty years later, the case of the Elvis Presley-loving Grimes sisters’ murder remains cold. New York Daily News. https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/elvis-presley-loving-grimes-sisters-found-dead-60-years-article-1.2922567 Cold case frozen: The Grimes sisters of Chicago. (n.d.) Crime Capsule. https://crimecapsule.com/cold-case-frozen-the-grimes-sisters-of-chicago/ Ely, A. (2021). Cold case files: The Grimes sisters. Penn State University. https://sites.psu.edu/annaliseblog/2021/03/06/cold-case-files-the-grimes-sisters/comment-page-1/ Frankie, C.M. (2020). The mysterious unsolved murders of sisters Barbara and Patricia Grimes. A&E Network. https://www.aetv.com/real-crime/murders-of-barbara-and-patricia-grimes Hoover, M. (2019). Mark Hoover: Unsolved murders of Grimes sisters. The Clermont Sun. https://www.clermontsun.com/2019/11/01/marc-hoover-unsolved-murders-of-the-grimes-sisters Johnson, R. (2012). Anniversary of Burr Ridge’s link to unsolved 1956 Grimes sisters’ murder. TribLocal. http://www.triblocal.com/burr-ridge-willowbrook/community/stories/2012/01/anniversary-of-burr-ridges-link-to-unsolved-1956-grimes-sisters-murder/index.html Keranen, K. (2019). ‘Chicago history cop” making headway in Grimes sisters’ murder case. The Columbia Chronicle. https://columbiachronicle.com/chicago-history-cop-making-headway-in-grimes-sisters-murder-case Klakstrom, J. (2020). Who murdered the Grimes sisters? Medium. https://klakstrom.medium.com/who-murdered-the-grimes-sisters-5c1473ede4a0 Shaffer, T. (1997). Death and the Maidens. Chicago Reader. https://chicagoreader.com/news-politics/death-and-the-maidens/ The Grimes sisters murders and the ghost car of German Church Road. Chicago’s Haunt Detective. (n.d.) http://www.hauntdetective.com/hauntings-legends-folklore/chicago/southside/66-grimes-girls The Grimes Sisters Murder Mystery. (2021). Medium. https://medium.com/the-mystery-box/the-grimes-sisters-murder-mystery-4b5c66456515