1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,680 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on 2 00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:11,680 harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:17,280 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,920 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:29,200 Hi everyone, I'm Deb and I'm Beth and we want to welcome you to episode number 6 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:36,820 25. Beth, we are on episode number 25 already. How can that be? It seems like we just started. It does. 7 00:00:37,300 --> 00:00:42,860 Well, let's keep going. Want to? Oh for sure. This is fun. This is great fun. 8 00:00:42,860 --> 00:00:45,220 I'm so glad I found a hobby that I can stick with. 9 00:00:46,220 --> 00:00:48,620 You know my attention span. I do. 10 00:00:49,820 --> 00:00:54,540 So we are glad that our listeners are taking the time out to be with us today. 11 00:00:54,700 --> 00:00:58,620 Beth and I are trying to find stories that you can relate to and 12 00:00:58,620 --> 00:01:03,420 leave the content up to you. If you follow our social media, 13 00:01:03,420 --> 00:01:11,020 you'll see that we just added a Linktree account so that you can go to one spot for all of our information and that includes our 14 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:14,300 website, social media accounts and a little bit extra. 15 00:01:14,300 --> 00:01:21,620 So what I'll do is I will add this Linktree to the show notes and you can go straight to that, find out all our 16 00:01:21,620 --> 00:01:26,620 contact sites. I even added a new Google form that you can fill out for 17 00:01:26,620 --> 00:01:30,820 requesting any types of storylines that you would like to hear. So check it out. 18 00:01:30,820 --> 00:01:33,140 Anything you want to talk about before we get started? 19 00:01:33,140 --> 00:01:39,900 Well, I was really up early at 5 a.m. this morning and I got right into my rubber stamping. I 20 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:44,780 completed my 45th Christmas card part one. 21 00:01:44,780 --> 00:01:48,980 I still have just a few more little additions to put on top of my card, 22 00:01:48,980 --> 00:01:54,140 but 45 Christmas cards will be completed in about a week. That is amazing. 23 00:01:54,140 --> 00:02:01,080 What website can people go to to check out your cards because you are a professional. 24 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,080 Thank you. Just Google 25 00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:10,780 Sunflowers and Dragonflies and I'm the first one on top of the Google page and you will find my blog and 26 00:02:10,980 --> 00:02:17,780 my mantra for Christmas is you can't be too early for Christmas if you never stop celebrating in the first place. 27 00:02:17,780 --> 00:02:23,580 I love that. I have heard a song before that says you can't save it all for Christmas Day, right? 28 00:02:23,580 --> 00:02:25,580 Yes, that's exactly right. 29 00:02:25,660 --> 00:02:29,940 We're gonna start this episode and I will start by saying Beth, last week 30 00:02:30,260 --> 00:02:35,940 you gave me so much information on Robert Picton and I'm gonna call him 31 00:02:36,140 --> 00:02:42,060 Robert because that's his given name and I know he prefers to go by Willie, but he doesn't deserve that. 32 00:02:42,060 --> 00:02:46,260 So I'm gonna keep calling him Robert or Picton. In the meantime, 33 00:02:46,820 --> 00:02:52,940 while you were talking last week, I am just one of these people that could be watching a 34 00:02:52,940 --> 00:03:00,420 documentary, but while I'm watching that I have to keep looking stuff up. So it's more of a I just need more. 35 00:03:00,420 --> 00:03:06,580 So what I was thinking about you and I talked about this and I hope you don't mind but 36 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:13,820 we're pulling a second parter out of the Robert Picton case because I really wanted to touch on 37 00:03:14,060 --> 00:03:17,500 the victims because Beth we've done a few 38 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:23,860 podcasts where I just really felt that names needed to be said, victims need to be recognized. 39 00:03:23,860 --> 00:03:28,420 So if that's okay with you, we're going into a part two here. Great. 40 00:03:28,420 --> 00:03:34,520 In fact, I really think what you found will complete our case. Yeah, I think so too. 41 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,420 I mean, there's so many different spins that I could go 42 00:03:37,420 --> 00:03:43,940 but I really wanted to concentrate on the victims and really something that is going on in Canada 43 00:03:43,940 --> 00:03:47,700 and I believe to this day Beth, it's still a little bit of a problem, 44 00:03:47,700 --> 00:03:50,240 but we'll get into that in just a minute. To start with, 45 00:03:50,740 --> 00:03:57,340 Canadian authorities set up a missing and murdered indigenous women's task force, Beth, after 46 00:03:57,620 --> 00:04:05,060 Aboriginal groups tipped them off that a high number of women were disappearing and this is in the era of Robert Picton. 47 00:04:05,060 --> 00:04:11,700 So it's a problem still today Beth. This has been happening for the past 30 years and to date on 48 00:04:11,700 --> 00:04:17,320 record more than 1,000 women have gone missing. That is a lot and 49 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:23,240 I'm so surprised that we haven't heard more people in the news looking for these poor women. 50 00:04:23,840 --> 00:04:26,100 Exactly and that's part of the problem. 51 00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:31,600 It just seems that around that time period that Robert Picton was in the news, 52 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:35,120 this was a huge problem that really wasn't being addressed. 53 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,560 So after I found this out during my research, Beth, 54 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,120 I really wanted to put some closure to at least some of the victims names who 55 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:51,400 unfortunately fell at Picton's hands and I had mentioned Canada has a huge population of indigenous women who are 56 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:53,800 missing and exploited and 57 00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:00,840 many of these women still go unnoticed like you had said. It's interesting that it's still not highly recognized 58 00:05:00,840 --> 00:05:07,680 but I really am hoping that I can do a public service announcement through this podcast today and we're gonna get going. 59 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,680 Okay, looking forward to hearing what you have to say and teach us. 60 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,080 Okay. 61 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:18,760 Statistics show that crimes against the indigenous population are considered higher than 62 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:21,880 non-indigenous women in Canada. 63 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:22,880 Get out! 64 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:23,600 Mm-hmm. 65 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:29,680 Reasons for this, Beth, is because there's a high rate of mental health issues, drug abuse, 66 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:36,080 domestic abuse and poverty. So clearly Picton took advantage of this even 20 years ago. 67 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:41,160 Oh my goodness. I had absolutely no idea about this. I'll have to look into it. 68 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,480 Oh, you might not have to because I found a ton of information. 69 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:45,280 Great. 70 00:05:45,280 --> 00:05:48,280 Yeah, so let's just kind of give a little recap. 71 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:55,800 Beth told us during our last episode that Robert Picton is serving time for the murders of six women. 72 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:02,320 He initially had a total of 27 more counts against him. One of these counts was dropped. 73 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:08,320 So court records indicate that he was responsible for 26 additional murders, 74 00:06:08,320 --> 00:06:14,920 but he was only charged with six due to the strain on the judicial system and other factors. 75 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:22,920 There are a ton more of victims that Picton has hinted that he has murdered over time, Beth, 76 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:28,920 but he's really not given a clear number and we're thinking it's upwards of 50. 77 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:29,920 Wow. 78 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:39,520 I'm surprised that he wouldn't come up with a higher number or the exact number because people like this do like to brag about their crime. 79 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:40,520 They sure do. 80 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:47,520 Well, Picton targeted his victims from Vancouver, British Columbia's downtown Eastside, 81 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:52,120 which spans a 10 block radius and was an area known for poverty. 82 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:57,120 And the downtown Eastside area is also known to locals as the low track. 83 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,120 And as you and I would know it today, Beth, it's basically called Skid Row. 84 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:02,120 Okay. 85 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:10,120 Think about inner city with a lot of homeless people out on the streets and just milling around all day. 86 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:17,120 Downtown Eastside sees a population of anywhere between five and 10,000 homeless people, 87 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,120 Beth, who are drug addicted or work in the sex worker industry. 88 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:22,120 Get out. 89 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:26,120 This is an annual number. So that's how many people come through that city. 90 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:27,120 My goodness. 91 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:35,120 And this also happens to be the area where Picton discarded animal parts at a nearby rendering plant, 92 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:42,120 which takes a combination of slaughtered animals used in biodiesel products, your makeup that you're wearing, Beth. 93 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,120 Ooh. 94 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:50,120 Yep. This includes the heads, hooves, bones, blood, internal organs from livestock, 95 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,120 plus other farm animals, roadkill and euthanized pets. 96 00:07:54,120 --> 00:08:00,120 Think about it because you see animals on the side of the road quite a bit, or at least I do where I live. 97 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,120 And they've got to go somewhere, right? 98 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,120 Yes. I wondered what they did with them. 99 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,120 Yeah. I'm hoping that's not where hot dogs come from. 100 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,120 Oh, don't even talk about that. I don't want to know. 101 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:16,120 I always tell people don't even go there because I don't want to know because I love hot dogs. 102 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:21,120 I do not eat hot dogs because I know it's usually heads, noses and hooves. 103 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,120 So yeah, I don't do it. 104 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,120 Thank you for that. 105 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,120 You're welcome. 106 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,120 I don't know. I'm just saying it. 107 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,120 All those parts, at least they're using them for something. 108 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:38,120 Just to let you know, if you are a baker as well, this is where your lard comes from, 109 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:47,120 along with your toiletries, Beth, such as toothpaste, cosmetics, like I had mentioned, shampoo, soap, and I could go on and on. 110 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,120 Wow. I had no idea about all that. That's quite informative. 111 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:57,120 I know it's intriguing to me. 112 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:58,120 Inside joke, folks. 113 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:04,120 Yeah, we were just talking about that. We're talking about our verbiage that we use pretty commonly. 114 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:09,120 But if you want to see what they are, go to our Instagram and you'll see a list. 115 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,120 You'll have to scroll down, though. So let's talk about some of the victims, Beth. 116 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:19,120 I really want to give them justice here. And as a caveat to identifying these women, 117 00:09:19,120 --> 00:09:26,120 Vancouver police did nothing because they did not prioritize crimes against sex workers. 118 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,120 We know that from many other different cases, Beth. 119 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:35,120 Unfortunately, they were not prioritized because they lived a transient lifestyle. 120 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:42,120 However, the RCMP did actually form a task force called the Project Eclipse, 121 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:49,120 where experts began profiling a potential serial killer in the area in association with these missing women. 122 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:58,120 During a jailhouse confession, Pickton told a cellmate who happened to be an undercover cop that he had killed a total of 49 women. 123 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,120 Pickton stated that he was disappointed in himself for becoming sloppy. 124 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:07,120 And some of Pickton's friends backed this up by saying that over the years, 125 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:12,120 he had bragged to them about luring women to the farm by offering them drugs 126 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:19,120 and then eventually using a wood chipper to dispose of their bodies and feeding the rest of their remains to his pigs. 127 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,120 Now, you had talked about that in episode one, how he had done that. 128 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:28,120 Well, shame on their friends. They should have come forward. They're just as guilty. 129 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,120 Yeah. I mean, were they afraid of him? 130 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:32,120 Ah. 131 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:41,120 I don't know. Well, let's talk about some of the victims. I want to go in as best as I can chronological order. 132 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:48,120 We'll start with Linda Grant. In 1984, police investigated Linda's disappearance very quickly, 133 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:57,120 but they were unable to come up with anything substantial. And by 1985, Beth, two additional women went missing. 134 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:02,120 In 1997, this is one of Pickton's only known survivors. 135 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:08,120 She's the one that got into the scuffle with him and managed to give him a little taste of his own medicine. 136 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,120 Do you remember talking about that in the first episode? 137 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,120 I do. Yeah. 138 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:18,120 So she fought back and she ended up stabbing Pickton multiple times. They both ended up in the emergency room. 139 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,120 Yes. 140 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:30,120 During her surgery, hospital workers were able to find the key to a set of handcuffs that were still on her hands when she arrived at the hospital in Robert Pickton's pocket. 141 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:41,120 Police could not move forward with this case because as we talked about in part one, it was basically a he said she said case and it was Pickton's word against hers. 142 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:42,120 Wow. 143 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:51,120 Yeah. As to what really happened and remember, it would still be years before police would investigate Pickton for his behavior on the farm. 144 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,120 Well, isn't that a quinky dink? 145 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:57,120 It certainly is. Now, this one hurts my heart, Beth. 146 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:05,120 Remember the amount of victims that Pickton had and this victim was identified as number 17. 147 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,120 Her name was Sarah DeVry and she was known to write in her diary. 148 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:22,120 Well, in 1995, Sarah was acutely aware of the number of women who had gone missing and even wrote in her diary, quote, Am I next? 149 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:26,120 Is he watching me now? Stalking me like a predator and its prey? 150 00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:31,120 Waiting for some perfect spot, time or my stupid mistake. 151 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:37,120 How does one choose a victim? Good question. If I knew that I would never get snuffed, unquote. 152 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,120 My, my, my. 153 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,120 Yep. That was that is very sensitive. 154 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:49,120 Yeah, that one really, like I said, hurts my heart because Sarah ended up going missing in 1998. 155 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,120 This is three years after she wrote that in her diary. 156 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:54,120 Oh, my goodness. 157 00:12:54,120 --> 00:12:55,120 So you just never know. 158 00:12:55,120 --> 00:13:00,120 You never know what was going on in her mind. You know, she must have been really scared. 159 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:11,120 Yeah. You just wish sometimes, Beth, that people could lean on somebody, have even, I don't know, a friend in that area or even a family member. 160 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:18,120 As we go through this, you'll kind of see that a lot of these victims still contacted their family members. 161 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,120 They always had somebody to call, but I just wish Sarah had somebody that she could lean on here. 162 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:33,120 So by mid 1998, the missing women's case headcount was up to 17 and Sarah DeVry marked number 17. 163 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:46,120 A rookie police officer by the name of Lorimer Schaener was assigned to this case for only two days when he received a tip about the connection between these women and Robert Picton. 164 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:48,120 Wow. Only two days, eh? 165 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:59,120 Now, during a tipster's phone call, the caller stated that he had been seeing women's belongings, including bloody clothing at the farm. 166 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:09,120 He also heard Picton talking about disposing of bodies by using the meat grinder, which I assume that this was the farmhand, his cox, that you told me about in part one. 167 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:20,120 And the caller also stated that Picton and another female would actually go to the downtown Eastside to help him bath pick up women. 168 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,120 I had no idea. 169 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,120 No, we didn't learn that in the first part, did we? 170 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:31,120 Mm-mm. He's just a disgusting human being. But for him to pull another woman in on this? 171 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:33,120 Yeah, that's pretty disgusting. 172 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:41,120 Well, Schaener entered Picton's name into a database and discovered the stabbing incident between Picton and Sandra Gale. 173 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:48,120 And he worked on this case for a total of four more years before charges were finally brought against Picton. 174 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:55,120 And during this time period, he also investigated those raves and parties that you talked about at the Piggy Palace. 175 00:14:55,120 --> 00:15:03,120 So he was investigating this entire time. Picton was put under surveillance for three days, but nothing came to raise suspicions. 176 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:08,120 So the police dropped him as a suspect in this missing women's case. 177 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,120 Oh, that's not good. 178 00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:15,120 No, that woman that I mentioned who helped lure Picton's victims to the farm? 179 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:20,120 She was brought in for questioning. And her name is Lynn Ellingson, by the way. 180 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:21,120 Right. 181 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:31,120 In her interview, Lynn stated that while she was at the Picton farm, she witnessed a female hanging from a meat hook and watched as he stripped her flesh. 182 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:37,120 Oh, my gosh. That's so inhumane. Oh, awful. 183 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:42,120 Very much so. But imagine being witness to that and the terror she had to feel. 184 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:44,120 For sure, for sure. 185 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:55,120 Now, Lynn stated later that she had never reported what she saw because she feared for her own life and depended on Picton to supply her with money for drugs. 186 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:59,120 Oh, I wondered how he had her under his fingers. 187 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,120 Yeah, she was between a rock and a hard place, for sure. 188 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:13,120 When police investigated this tip from Lynn, they visited the farm and Picton boldly told them to come back during the rainy season when he wasn't so busy. 189 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:15,120 They followed up four months later, Beth. 190 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:23,120 That is so asinine. And I wonder if it is because it's Indigenous women. There is a prejudice in Canada. 191 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:36,120 I think you're right. I think you are really bringing up a pretty good point because, again, this does go back for the last 30 years, maybe even longer. So be the change, people. Be the change. 192 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,120 Exactly. I like that thought. 193 00:16:38,120 --> 00:16:45,120 Yeah. So they came back four months later and Picton was eventually arrested. 194 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:56,120 Police were able to collect 200,000 DNA samples and 600,000 exhibits for evidence from the farm, Beth. 195 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,120 That's a lot. That is, that's astronomical. 196 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,120 Yeah, they were overachievers for that, but it took them long enough, eh? 197 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:04,120 Yes. 198 00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:09,120 So how can you collect that much evidence and only charge Picton with six murders? 199 00:17:09,120 --> 00:17:10,120 Exactly. 200 00:17:10,120 --> 00:17:23,120 Now, this is something that I found interesting. They brought archaeologists in and forensic experts also sifted through 383,000 cubic yards of soil. 201 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:35,120 So as you had mentioned, Beth, it took an estimated cost for the entire investigation to exceed 70 million Canadian dollars or almost 54 million in US dollars today. 202 00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:52,120 That's a lot of money. And what I can't fathom is, as you said, how can they only charge him with six murders, especially since they spent that kind of money, got that kind of samples and exhibits for evidence? Just outrageous. 203 00:17:52,120 --> 00:18:07,120 Yeah, it's terrible. Now I will ask you a question though, because we found out that he was only charged with six murders because it would be a tremendous amount of pressure on the jury. 204 00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:11,120 Put yourself in the jury's chair there for a moment, Beth. 205 00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:18,120 Would you be able to handle listening to 27 cases? 206 00:18:18,120 --> 00:18:19,120 No. 207 00:18:19,120 --> 00:18:24,120 I wouldn't be able to handle that against one person. That would be, I don't think I could mentally handle that. 208 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,120 No, I couldn't either. 209 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:38,120 That would be tough. Well, I want to talk about the six women that Picton was charged with in their murders, which you spoke about in part one, but keep in mind that each victim is assigned a number. 210 00:18:38,120 --> 00:18:52,120 They're not listed in numerical order. These are just the cases where the women's remains were found at the farm. So it won't be specifically in numerical order here. On count one, Serena Abbotsway. 211 00:18:52,120 --> 00:19:11,120 She was age 29 and born with fetal alcohol syndrome. Both parents died when she was four years old. So she was eventually taken to foster parents and remained with them until she was 17. But I believe Beth with fetal alcohol syndrome, there is a lot of violent tendencies. 212 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:38,120 So this was not unusual for Serena to act out and she was eventually placed into a group home. And this is where she was introduced to drugs. Well, I find it really unusual that in a group home, this type of activity takes place because I thought in a group home, there would be a lot of workers because my son works in a group home and I know that they have a keen eye and watch out for their residents. 213 00:19:38,120 --> 00:19:48,120 Yeah, I believe that. But two, you have to remember that you're dealing with teenagers and not going to lie. Teenagers can be sneaky. I was a teenager once. 214 00:19:48,120 --> 00:19:52,120 And you were sneaky. 215 00:19:52,120 --> 00:20:08,120 All right, so Serena was acutely aware of the missing women of downtown Eastside and often spoke at rallies to demand action to be taken in support of the victims. Good for her. Yeah, you go. 216 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:30,120 She was known to call home every day and was eventually reported missing by her foster mother on August 22 of 2001. During one of her calls home, Serena's brother quoted her as asking him to please make sure their younger foster siblings never ended up living the life she did. 217 00:20:30,120 --> 00:20:46,120 Now that's heartbreaking. It is. It is because like I said, these are the people that were found on Picton's farm. So she was the first person to be found on his farm. Now, Mona Lee Wilson was age 26. 218 00:20:46,120 --> 00:21:02,120 She hated wearing dresses when she was a little girl, but she loved animals. Just like you. Yeah. She grew up with a foster family where she lived from the age of 8 to 14 and Mona was eventually placed in a home for single mothers. 219 00:21:02,120 --> 00:21:19,120 But two years later, she was addicted to heroin and became a sex worker to support her habits. She never stopped trying to break her addiction, Beth, but eventually disappeared in November of 2001. Good for her for trying to break her addiction. 220 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:36,120 It's very hard to do that when it's a habit. Yeah. Well, count six. Andrea Josbury was 22 years old. She experienced mental illness, physical abuse, and exposure to alcoholism during her childhood. 221 00:21:36,120 --> 00:21:52,120 Hmm. Sounds a little familiar there, doesn't it? Yes, it does. A boyfriend convinced Andrea to move away at the age of 16 to start a new life in Vancouver, BC. However, he was a drug dealer and contributed to Andrea's addiction. 222 00:21:52,120 --> 00:22:06,120 So she began working the streets to support her habit. Andrea never overcame the heartache of losing custody of her daughter who was put up for adoption and people that knew her said that Andrea never recovered from that. Poor thing. 223 00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:28,120 That's a good example of somebody abusing drugs to numb her thoughts. Oh yeah, and heartache. It's such a shame. Well, count seven. Brenda Ann Wolfe was age 32 and last seen in February of 1999, but she was not reported missing until April of 2000. 224 00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:45,120 Oh my goodness. What we'll see here as I go through some more of these names in just a little bit, Beth, is a lot of these cases, these people go missing, but they're not reported missing for months at a time and sometimes even years. 225 00:22:45,120 --> 00:22:59,120 Unbelievable. Well, with their lifestyle of drugs, alcohol, and their past trauma, it's often hard for them to keep in touch with their family or family members don't want to keep in touch with her. So true. 226 00:22:59,120 --> 00:23:11,120 All right. Brenda came to Vancouver from Alberta and she loved country music. She loved to dance and she left behind two daughters by the name of Angel and Destiny. 227 00:23:11,120 --> 00:23:26,120 Beautiful names. Well, although Brenda had a brief addiction to drugs, she really seemed to be turning her life around and even began working as a waitress, Beth, and a bouncer. Oh, good for her. 228 00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:45,120 Yeah. So she was trying to get on track, which is great. Unlike Picton's other victims, Brenda was not a sex worker, but she did attempt to protect that population in downtown Eastside. She was fondly known as a street enforcer, which is likely how she encountered Picton. 229 00:23:45,120 --> 00:23:53,120 Probably. With a woman so strong and tough, in my mind, I wonder how she could have been sucked into Picton's hands. 230 00:23:53,120 --> 00:24:09,120 Yeah, sure. Count 11 Georgina Faith Papin was last seen in 1999. She was kind, generous, and loved teaching others about her indigenous culture. She loved to sing and play guitar. 231 00:24:09,120 --> 00:24:28,120 She left behind seven children and always called home to check on them when she disappeared. Georgina was shuffled through the foster care system earlier in life, but ran away when she was 12 due to abuse and neglect and faced prison time due to her lifestyle from time to time. 232 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:42,120 Georgina last told one of her children that she did not feel well and planned to go to the local hospital to seek treatment, and she was one of the females as the others that were found on Picton's farm. 233 00:24:42,120 --> 00:25:02,120 Poor Georgina and the children that she had left behind. 234 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:19,120 Georgina was pregnant at age 18 and was lured into the streets by a local gang who introduced her to drugs, and that's when she began sex working to support her habit. Marnie called home frequently, sometimes up to eight times a day to check on her daughter, Beth. 235 00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:36,120 That's a really caring mother. I know and see that's the thing is a lot of these women check in with their families pretty regularly, and it's just sad that the path that they are going down. And I mean, that's what's so heartbreaking about this. 236 00:25:36,120 --> 00:25:55,120 Yes, and I don't understand why they wouldn't have called the police sooner than they had because of the regular interaction. Yeah, I mean, I can understand if they go weeks or months without talking to their family, but when they chicken regularly, I just feel for them. 237 00:25:55,120 --> 00:26:15,120 I feel for the victims. I feel for the family members. It's just so difficult. Marnie was last heard from on her 24th birthday when she did call home. Her parents said that they were shipping her a package containing baked goods, clothes, and hand drawn pictures from her daughter. 238 00:26:15,120 --> 00:26:30,120 But the package was never picked up. And Marnie's DNA was one of those found on the Picton farm. That's another sad case. Now, a couple of the victims you had mentioned the charges were stayed. Yes. 239 00:26:30,120 --> 00:26:54,120 And I'm going to mention two of them. Inga Hall was between the age of 46 and 47, and she disappeared in February of 1993 and was reported missing in March of the same year. Sarah Jean DeVry, age 29, disappeared on April 14 of 1998 and was reported missing the same day, which is good. 240 00:26:54,120 --> 00:27:14,120 It's unfortunate though that for whatever reason, the Crown decided not to press charges on Sarah Jean. At least they acted quickly. Yes, that's good that they did act quickly, but sad that nothing came of recovering her before she went into Picton's hands. 241 00:27:14,120 --> 00:27:34,120 Well, additional victims were linked but could not be verified. And like I had mentioned earlier, many of these women went months and even years before being reported missing. So here I'm going to try to go as best as I can. I did not find a ton of information on all of the names I'm going to say. 242 00:27:34,120 --> 00:27:54,120 I will go in chronological order, but Beth, again, I just feel like we need to say the names because these people need to be recognized. Yes, please do tell us. Rebecca Guno, age 23, disappeared on June 22 of 1993 and was reported missing three days later. 243 00:27:54,120 --> 00:28:14,120 Sherry Rale, age 43, disappeared in January of 1984, but was not reported missing for three years. In March of 1986, Elaine Auerbach, age 33, told friends that she had plans to move to Seattle, Washington, and she never made it there. 244 00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:34,120 She was reported missing in April of the same year. In July of 1988, Teresa Ann Williams, age 26, disappeared. In August of 1989, Ingrid Sowet, age 40, disappeared and was reported missing in October of 1990. 245 00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:51,120 In August of 1991, Mary Ann Clark, also known as Nancy Greek, age 25, went missing. June of 1992, Kathleen Watley, age 39, disappeared and was reported missing by the end of the month. 246 00:28:51,120 --> 00:29:11,120 March of 1995, Katherine Gonzalez, age 47, disappeared and was reported missing in February of 1996. August of 1995, Dorothy Spence, age 36, disappeared and was reported missing in October of the same year. 247 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:27,120 In April of 1996, Katherine Knight, age 32, disappeared and was reported missing the same month. December 1995, Diana Melnick, age 23, disappeared and was reported missing the same month. 248 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:47,120 October 1996, Tanya Hulke, age 24, disappeared and was reported missing in November of that year. In December of 1996, Olivia Williams, age 22, disappeared and was reported missing on July 4, 1997. 249 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:58,120 Stephanie Lane, age 20, was hospitalized for a drug-induced episode and the day after she was released, Beth, she went missing. 250 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:16,120 Let me stop here for just a moment because this one, this I found incredible, Beth. Janet Henry disappeared in June of 1997 and she survived an encounter with Clifford Olson in the 1980s. 251 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:27,120 Do you know who that is? Oh yes, I thought of doing a podcast on this. Yeah, so I had not heard of him until I was looking into these women's disappearances. 252 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:34,120 We need to do a podcast, but it's just so unfortunate that she would encounter Olson and Picton. 253 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:47,120 It's unfortunate that she would have encountered Olson because at the time she had been drugged, but for some reason he had spared her and never gave a reason why. Oh, for goodness sakes. 254 00:30:47,120 --> 00:31:05,120 Yep. Now, Janet eventually disappeared from downtown Eastside on June 28, 1997. Marnie Frey, age 25, disappeared in August of 1997, but was not reported missing until September of 1998. 255 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:22,120 August 1997, Cindy Beck, age 33, disappeared, but she was not reported missing until April 30 of 1998. I'm not really sure what month this occurred, Beth, but Kara Louise Ellis disappeared at some point. 256 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:39,120 Her DNA was found on Picton's farm, but they could not directly link this to Picton himself, and the family just received her remains in 2013. What? I know. If she's on the farm, how can you not relate him to Picton? 257 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:52,120 Well, remember he had that piggy palace. Oh, that's right. And I really think too, a lot of it too, some of this DNA that they may have collected could be from their raves and their parties that they had. Good point. 258 00:31:52,120 --> 00:32:17,120 Yep. In January of 1998, Carrie Koski, age 39, disappeared, and she was reported missing the same month. Jacqueline McDonald, age 23, disappeared and was reported missing on February 22, 1999. And Beth, this is when police finally started paying attention to the Vancouver women's disappearances. 259 00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:38,120 Well, it took them long enough. Sure did. In July of 1998, Sheila Egan, age 20, disappeared and was reported missing on August 5 of the same year. In September of 1998, Helen Hallmark, age 32, disappeared on September 23, 1998. 260 00:32:38,120 --> 00:33:04,120 In October of 1998, there were a total of three women who went missing. Jacqueline Murdoch, age 28, Andrea Boerhaven also disappeared in October of 1998, but was not reported missing until May 18 of 1999, primarily because she was a transient and had no known address and she moved frequently. 261 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:15,120 So, you know, that's one of those cases where you're saying the family does not know where these women are at and it's difficult to keep up with them. Julie Young, age 31, was also reported missing. 262 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:37,120 November of 1998, Angela Jardine, age 20, had the mental capacity of a 10-year-old and had been working the downtown Eastside since she was 12 when she disappeared. December of 1998, Michelle Gurney, age 30, disappeared and was reported missing the same month. 263 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:51,120 Marcella Creason, age 20, was released from jail on December 27, but never showed up at home where her mother and boyfriend waited for her to celebrate Christmas. 264 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:58,120 That's really endearing that they were waiting for her, somebody that doesn't appear to be living on the streets. 265 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:04,120 No, and, you know, these families loved their daughters. 266 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,120 They did. 267 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:20,120 All right, December 2000, Dawn Teresa Cray became a main storyline to a 2006 documentary called Finding Dawn, which addressed the murder and missing Aboriginal women in Canada. 268 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:30,120 She went missing December of 2000. In March of 2001, Yvonne Bowen, age 34, disappeared and was reported missing the same month. 269 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:45,120 Now, there are additional names of Picton's victims, Beth, that are not included in this case because of the stress that it would cause on the jury, and many of these victims' DNA or remains were found on the Picton farm. 270 00:34:45,120 --> 00:35:01,120 Sherry Irving had friends who knew her as a warm and generous person, and she disappeared in 1997. Angela Jardine, age 28, had the mental capacity of an 11-year-old. She disappeared in November of 1998. 271 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:10,120 Now, the rest of these names, Beth, I was not able to find anything on. So, again, I just want to say their names so that they can be remembered. 272 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:19,120 I think that is a good thing that you're mentioning their names because in our podcast, we do try to give our victims a voice. 273 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:37,120 Absolutely. So, the remaining victims are Cynthia Felix, Carrie Koski, Wendy Crawford, Jennifer Firminger, Tiffany Drew, Deborah Lynn Jones, Patricia Johnson, Heather Schenock, Heather Bottomley, 274 00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:48,120 Diana Rock, Angela Arsenault, and Ruby Hardy. So, those are the victims that I could find that are associated with this case, Beth. 275 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:54,120 My goodness, that's an awful lot. And then just think about the ones that weren't picked up on. 276 00:35:54,120 --> 00:36:10,120 Yeah, absolutely. Now, to further this, Beth, I found a 252-page transcript of Picton's interview with the police after he was arrested. And I honestly didn't spend a whole lot of time reading it. 277 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:17,120 It's 252 pages. Trust me, I've done a lot of reading in the last couple of years, and I'm done with all that. 278 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:31,120 But secondly, I mean, he really doesn't deserve any more of my time. When he was told that he was being charged with at least two murders with the possibility of upwards of 50, he laughed during the interview. 279 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,120 That's ridiculous. 280 00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,120 I mean, that tells you what his mindset is. 281 00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:36,120 Yes. 282 00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:45,120 When the police officer asked Picton what he thought about these circumstances, there's really no pun intended here. He literally said, it's hogwash. 283 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,120 Ridiculous. 284 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:55,120 And the police were trying to set him up. And he was just an average working citizen, noting, I'm just a pig man. And again, he chuckled. 285 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,120 I think that goes to show you his mentality is childlike. 286 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:06,120 Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right. He also talked about being engaged. Did you know he was engaged, Beth? 287 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,120 No, nothing I read said that. 288 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:19,120 Yep, he apparently he was engaged to a girl named Connie, and she lived in Missouri, but she couldn't leave her job, he couldn't leave his job. So they went their separate ways. 289 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:28,120 After spending time together, I believe they went on a road trip. So he came to Missouri there for a minute, visited with her and then they went their separate ways. 290 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:39,120 All right, so if anybody's interested in the 252 pages of the transcript of Robert Picton, I will certainly put those in our show notes, but I will not be reading any more from that. 291 00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:52,120 During Picton's trial, the Vancouver Police Department issued a public apology to the victims' families by stating, and I quote, I wish from the bottom of my heart that we would have caught him sooner. 292 00:37:52,120 --> 00:38:05,120 I wish that the several agencies involved that we could have done better in so many ways. I wish that all the mistakes that were made, we could undo. And I wish that more lives would have been saved. 293 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:21,120 So on my behalf, and behalf of the Vancouver Police Department, and all the men and women that worked on this investigation, I would say to the family how sorry we are for all of your losses, because we did not catch this monster sooner, unquote. That came from the police chief. 294 00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:28,120 And that was nice that he made that apology. So often you don't receive apologies from authorities. 295 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:37,120 So true, yeah. So it's good that he took the time to do that. And I hope that it sounds heartfelt, and I hope the family could at least have some kind of closure with that. 296 00:38:37,120 --> 00:39:04,120 So in all, Beth, this case brought national attention to the ongoing challenges with missing and murdered Indigenous women and girls in Canada. And throughout the Picton investigation, public outcry called out police investigations, stating that the RCMP and local law enforcement blatantly failed to protect Indigenous women and sex workers against societal prejudice. 297 00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:16,120 For example, during the 1990s, 80% of Canada's sex trade came strictly from Vancouver, and many of these women's families had not heard from them in years. 298 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:35,120 Woo, that's a high percentage rate. Terribly high, absolutely. Well, we're going to go back to 1978, because I do want to bring attention to the fact that the RCMP did join forces with the Vancouver Police Department to form a missing women's task force. 299 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:53,120 But by 1995, not a lot was being done to bring these women home. For example, out of the 26 women that Picton was linked to, Diana Milnick disappeared in 1995, and then we had more disappearances. 300 00:39:53,120 --> 00:40:10,120 One in 1996, six in 1997, four in 1998, five in 1999, two in 2000, and Beth and astounding seven more women went missing in 2001. 301 00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:11,120 Wow. 302 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:26,120 Public outcry forced the Canadian government to take action, and just in 2016, Beth, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau established the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls. 303 00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,120 Good for Prime Minister Trudeau. 304 00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:48,120 Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, you just, you can't turn a blind eye to this when it's been going on for so long. Well, this inquiry that he established issued 63 recommendations, including adequate funding for emergency women's shelters and compensation for the children of these missing women. 305 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,120 Good for them. I'm glad to hear that. 306 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:51,120 Yeah. 307 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:59,120 Get ready for this, Beth. In 2016, Picton allegedly wrote an autobiography on his accounts of this case. 308 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:00,120 Get out of here. 309 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:11,120 Yep. It was 144 pages, which was titled Picton in his own words, and was allegedly smuggled out of the prison by a former cellmate. 310 00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,120 Wow. 311 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:22,120 It sold on Amazon for a brief period of time, but public outrage had the book withdrawn. Thank God, I didn't even go look for it. I'm sure it's out there somewhere, but holy cow. 312 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,120 Yes. 313 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:34,120 And since this guy does not deserve another second of my time, I'm going to end our podcast today by saying that I hope the Canadian government has success in finding more missing women. 314 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:45,120 I will say that from what I saw, Beth, they were able to locate some of these missing women from the task force reports who are now living elsewhere in Canada. 315 00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:51,120 Some of these missing women came forward because they found themselves on that list, you know, with internet access today. 316 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:55,120 Yeah, that would be pretty freaky to find your name on that list. 317 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,120 It sure would, especially 30 years later. 318 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:08,120 But I'm glad that some of them were able to move on and get out of that situation because a lot of the people that did come forward are living good lives today. 319 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:13,120 Good. Very good. Nice to have a little bit of a glimmer of hope out there. 320 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:23,120 Yeah. Well, that's it. I'm done. This is mission accomplished. I really, really, really needed to at least give a voice to these women's names. 321 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:28,120 Well, thank you, Deb, for doing that. And wonder if today you have a teachable moment. 322 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:37,120 Teachable moment. Sure. Beth, have you ever had a negative first impression of someone but found out later that that person was really, really nice? 323 00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:38,120 Yes. 324 00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:42,120 Yeah. Well, we know it's easy to judge a book by its cover. 325 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:52,120 And for those listeners who have never heard this term, it means that people are easily judged by how they look, how they dress, how they act and so on. 326 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,120 And I think a lot of these judgments are based on the fact of ignorance, Beth. 327 00:42:56,120 --> 00:43:03,120 For example, I work with a lot of diverse cultural groups and that's really not something that we grew up with. 328 00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:04,120 I agree. 329 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:13,120 Yeah. Well, at least over my lifetime, I found that learning about these different social groups is very eye opening and really, really interesting, Beth. 330 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:18,120 For example, I actually went to my first Kenciera last summer. Do you know what that is? 331 00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:19,120 No. 332 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:29,120 It's a coming of age party for the Hispanic population. It's almost like a coming out party for girls when they turn 15. 333 00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:30,120 Oh, okay. 334 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:38,120 And it was really, really such a neat event. This girl was dressed up like a princess that you would see on the Disney Channel. 335 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,120 It was really, really culturally eye opening. I had heard about it for years. 336 00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:52,120 But Beth, when she invited me to this event, I mean, I almost had tears in my eyes. I was just so honored to be invited to such an event. 337 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:53,120 That's nice. 338 00:43:53,120 --> 00:44:01,120 Yeah. Well, talking with different ethnic groups has really opened my eyes and broadened my own understanding of social differences. 339 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:08,120 So what's my point? I know our podcast talks a lot about the bad side of humanity. 340 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:16,120 But if people would just take the time to understand each other, it might just minimize the violence that we have towards one another today. 341 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:24,120 Case being, it shocked me to learn that the Indigenous women in Canada are so highly disregarded and we are all human beings. 342 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:30,120 It's time to move past our own biases. It's our responsibility to educate ourselves. 343 00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:35,120 And I can personally say that the clarity that comes with that, it can very well change the world. 344 00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:42,120 Thank you for that. I really think it's sad that the Indigenous are so disrespected. 345 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:53,120 I find watching a lot of shows on Netflix and TV where there is other races and religions really opens up my eyes to other cultures. 346 00:44:53,120 --> 00:45:01,120 Oh, absolutely. I've just learned so much over time. It's just amazing. And yeah, when you educate yourself, you become a better person. 347 00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:13,120 You do. Now in Canada, there was a show called North of Sixty many, many years ago, and it was all on the Indigenous living in a secluded area 348 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:22,120 where you had to take a plane to get into the town. And there are towns like that. That really opened up my eyes to the Indigenous. 349 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,120 I did learn a lot from it and I respect them for that. 350 00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:32,120 Yeah, good deal. Well, there we have it. We are done. There will be no part three. 351 00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,120 And that's a wrap. 352 00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:44,120 That is a wrap. So thank you all for listening today. And before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. 353 00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:53,120 Those reviews would really help us in the ratings. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dine to be Found. 354 00:45:53,120 --> 00:46:03,120 And if you like our episodes, consider buying us a coffee. Be sure to leave a comment at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Dine to be Found spelled just like you see it on our logo. 355 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:30,120 And thanks, everyone. We appreciate you coming today and we are going to talk to you next week. Bye. 356 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:35,120 Bye.