1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:04,000 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, 2 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:09,040 I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and 3 00:00:09,040 --> 00:00:14,000 crimes against animals and or humankind. Recordings are not intended for young or 4 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,920 sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. Listener discretion is strongly advised. 5 00:00:23,040 --> 00:00:29,520 Well hello everyone, I'm Deb and I'm Beth and we want to welcome you to episode number 6 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:35,680 24 of Dying to be Found. We're so glad that you're taking time out of your day to day to be with us. 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:41,440 Beth and I are always trying to find stories that you can relate to and leave the content up to you, 8 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,880 our listeners. If you have a story that you would like to hear, please email us at dying the number 9 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:53,280 2 the letter B found at gmail.com and if you'd like to know more about our podcast or your hosts, 10 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:58,880 please visit dying to be found dot com spell just like you see it on our logo. So Beth, 11 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:04,720 how are you today? Awesome. Oh, tell me more. Just did a lot of things this morning before 12 00:01:04,720 --> 00:01:11,760 we're taping here and it feels good to get things done. It sure was. I'm going to give our listeners 13 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:17,280 a little heads up. Beth and I tried to record early this morning and we both found that mornings are 14 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:23,440 probably not the best time for us. So we took a break. It's later in the afternoon and I think 15 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:29,280 we're both ready to go here. I think so. I feel so much more awake. Me too. Hey, listen, I wanted 16 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:34,480 to tell you a real quick thing just before we get started today. As you know, I've been traveling 17 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:41,280 around quite a bit and I just returned from a family trip to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. 18 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,400 Oh boy, Beth, was that ever an eye opener? I'd never been there before. Have you heard of Myrtle 19 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,840 Beach? I heard of Myrtle Beach, but I thought that was in Florida. Oh, well, Florida beaches are 20 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:58,640 really beautiful because the sand is white, the water is blue or emerald green, depending on where 21 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:05,280 you're at. But the further north you go, obviously the Atlantic, it gets a little gray. Well, that 22 00:02:05,280 --> 00:02:14,640 wasn't the problem, Beth. What was? I don't know if you ever book Airbnbs or VRBOs. Yes, had terrific 23 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:22,720 success. Good. And I have too up until this week. I was a little bit more than surprised when I 24 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:29,120 pulled up to the property that I rented for our family to get together. And Beth, what we walked 25 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:39,600 into, it was horrifying. Let's just say that we rented in a crack neighborhood or a meth head 26 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:47,680 neighborhood. It was awful. It would be my gosh. I was stewing over it probably for the first couple 27 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:54,320 of days. You stayed there more than one day? Yeah, we went for three days. I would have looked for 28 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:59,440 another place. I mean, we already paid. You couldn't get your money back. Oh, that's true. 29 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:05,200 I would have. I actually told my kids, I am willing to get a hotel to get us out of here. 30 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:10,560 It was not the house itself was not bad, but I went and looked at the pictures again and 31 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:16,480 hindsight's a little 2020. You can kind of read between the lines at that point. Well, we had 32 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:23,440 meth heads walking up and down the streets 24 seven. We had homeless people camped right next to us 33 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:30,160 in an empty lot. The neighborhood itself was, oh gosh, crumbling buildings around us. I mean, 34 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,960 I don't want to speak badly of people because everybody's circumstances are so different, 35 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:41,840 but for the amount of money that we paid for prime beach season, I was flabbergasted. 36 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:48,960 What really, really just put me over the edge is when I opened the oven to go make some lunch, 37 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:56,560 there was a huge pan of leftover moldy macaroni and cheese sitting inside that oven. 38 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:07,200 Oh, M G. Yeah. And you use that oven. Oh my God. Oh, yes. I did. I had to feed the kids. 39 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:13,600 Oh my gosh. I know. All right. So I did stew on it for a few days and bath, I swear. 40 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:20,720 I'm really a kind person when it comes to giving reviews. So I emailed the owner and told them, 41 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:28,960 look, you know, I was tolerant at first, but I'm just going to tell you before I put this on a 42 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:34,480 review, your fault's advertising. I'm a little bit perturbed at this point because I sent him a 43 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:40,400 picture of the mac and cheese. He was like, Oh no, sorry for your experience, but that's about it. 44 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:46,720 Not good. Yeah. What do you do? Looking back, the pictures were fine, but I don't know. I mean, 45 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:51,760 I look at reviews too. Anyway, long story short is I won't be returning to Myrtle beach. I think 46 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:58,240 I'm going to go back to the Florida area where the sand is white and the water's blue. And you know, 47 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:02,720 where you're staying and I know where I'm staying. Hey, listen, okay. I know we need to get started 48 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:07,600 here. So I'm going to pass you the reins and let you take over from here. And unless there's 49 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:13,920 anything else you want to talk about, then I say, let's go. I want to talk about this case. Okay. 50 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:18,800 Let's go. Thanks Deb. Today we're going to talk about a pretty famous case that takes place in 51 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:25,200 British Columbia, Canada. This case is about the pig farmer killer, also known as Robert William 52 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:33,440 or Willie Pickton. Robert was one of three children born to Leonard and Louise Pickton on October 24th, 53 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:41,040 1949. He came from three generations of a family of pig farmers in port Coquitlam, British Columbia, 54 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:47,760 27 kilometers or 17 miles east of Vancouver. When it was Robert's turn to take over the farm, 55 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:53,840 he raised only a handful of pigs to sell to local residents. So he didn't make much money off of pig 56 00:05:53,840 --> 00:06:00,000 farming. He had other interests. What kind of interests? Well, you'll see, don't want to give 57 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,800 up the goods yet. Yeah, probably not a good idea. I mean, I know where it's going because of our 58 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:11,520 genre, but okay, let's go. All right. Growing up in the Pickton household was very dysfunctional. 59 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:17,040 According to family and friends, Leonard was violently abusive towards Robert. Friends and 60 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:23,920 family said that Leonard had very little influence over his children. So he was an absent father. 61 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:30,000 Yes. But then there's Louise, his mother. Oh boy. Louise, on the other hand, seemed to rule the 62 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:35,840 roost. Robert and his young brother, Dave, began working on the farm at an early age. Their mother 63 00:06:35,840 --> 00:06:41,520 was very demanding and tended to the pigs far more than she did towards her own children. 64 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:49,600 Oh, I know. She often sent them to school and unwashed clothes, smelling like manure, dirt, 65 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:58,160 and dead animals. Oh my gosh. Okay. First of all, gross, but secondly, shame on her. Do we know how 66 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:04,080 impressionable kids are at that age? Kids are mean. Like they're the meanest human beings in the 67 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:09,840 world. They are. They pick on each other. So why would she do such a thing? Well, we're going to 68 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:15,520 find out about why he smells like dead animals. Okay. Well, he's a pig farmer. He is. I'm going 69 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:20,640 to start there. And I've been on pig farms before. Oh, we have. So I know what it smells like. 70 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,560 Yep. The two boys were called names in school because they stink so badly. And classmates 71 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:33,440 called them stinky piggy. If Robert didn't want to be found around the farm, he would hide in the 72 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:41,040 gutted carcasses of large hogs. Oh, I know. Isn't that gross? Yeah. Think about it though. Small 73 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:47,520 child can certainly fit into something like that. Wow. Okay. Obviously that's probably one of the 74 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:55,360 reasons why he carries that odor. Yes. That's what I was thinking too. Yeah. This reminds me of being 75 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:02,160 in elementary school when several of my classmates would pick on one of the girls in my class period 76 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:09,760 and they always told her that she had fleas. That's so sad. It is. I mean, I guess at the time, 77 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:15,520 you know, so-and-so has fleas, but I always thought that was so mean. I actually befriended 78 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:21,760 this girl and it wasn't because I felt sorry for her, Beth. I was just pretty much nice to everybody. 79 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:28,160 A lot of the kids in my class grew up on farms, but they came to school just as clean as I did. 80 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:34,800 So I guess I don't really understand how Robert's mother could do such a thing and send him to school 81 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:41,280 that way. No, I don't neither. It goes to show you her frame of mind, which I will actually get into 82 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:47,280 again. Okay. A lot is revealed about Louise for a variety of reasons. One being that she sent 83 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,560 Robert's older sister, Linda, off to live with relatives because Louise didn't think a farm was 84 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:57,840 a proper place to raise a daughter. Then there's a story that eventually had everyone talking. 85 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:05,520 On October 16th, 1967, when Dave, Robert's younger brother, got his driver's lesson at age 16, 86 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:11,600 he took his father's truck out for a drive. A 14-year-old boy named Tim Barrett was walking 87 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:18,640 down the road and somehow Dave slammed right into Tim. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Dave knew right away that 88 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:24,240 Tim was in bad shape, so he ran home and told his mother what had happened. He did the right thing. 89 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:29,120 He did. Louise stopped what she was doing and quickly went to the injured boy. Okay. Well, 90 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:36,000 that's good. Yeah. After looking Tim over, she leaned down and rolled Tim down the embankment, 91 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:42,240 turned around and went back home. What? Yeah. That goes to show you her son at least has a 92 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:49,440 conscience and she certainly doesn't. Wow. So she's teaching her boys already how to behave. 93 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:55,440 She sure is. The next morning, a neighbor whose son had seen Tim the night before went out to 94 00:09:55,440 --> 00:10:00,560 search for him because he wasn't seen in the morning. During his search, he found Tim's shoes 95 00:10:00,560 --> 00:10:06,320 and scoured the area. Peeking over the embankment, the neighbor and Tim's mother spotted his body 96 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:13,920 lying in the water. Oh gosh. So Pickton's mom knowingly rolled him down into a body of water 97 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:21,120 and let him drown? Yes. Oh my gosh. Police arrived right away and pulled Tim's body out of the water. 98 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:26,320 His autopsy revealed the cause of death was drowning. He did not die from his injuries in 99 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:32,080 the accident. After the accident was investigated, Louise was never charged, but Dave was sent to 100 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:40,880 juvenile court. Oh my gosh. So did anyone find out about Louise's play in Tim's death? Because 101 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:45,680 earlier you said that everybody was talking about what had happened to Tim. I don't know what 102 00:10:45,680 --> 00:10:53,440 happened because from what I read, it said that word got around. So was there any speculation or 103 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:59,600 did Dave just keep his mouth shut? I'm assuming just word of mouth back then. You know, there 104 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:09,040 wasn't the TV news like there is now. Yeah. More than three stations that we grew up with. Exactly. 105 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:14,560 Growing up in his early teens, Robert used his savings to buy a calf, which became a pet to him. 106 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:21,200 After school one day, he couldn't find his pet and asked his mother where it was. His mother replied, 107 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:26,080 check the barn. Off Robert went to the barn and there he found his pet slaughtered. 108 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:33,520 Okay. So me being one with nature and animals, Beth, that's so cruel, but do you remember 109 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:41,360 that we had a pet pig? Sure do. Do you remember its name? No. What was it? Pig. Yeah. Dad wouldn't 110 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:48,480 let us name the pig because we were going to have that pig in our freezer that winter. Oh my. And I 111 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:54,560 remember having pork chops one night saying, these are the smallest pork chops I've ever seen. This 112 00:11:54,560 --> 00:12:02,400 must be pig. Well, at least we didn't grow up thinking it was a pet. I mean, honestly behind 113 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:08,720 the scenes, yes I did because Kathy and I secretly called the pig Wilbur from that movie Charlotte's 114 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:14,960 Web. Oh, that's heartbreaking. I know. Well, we knew what was going to happen. I mean, the pig was 115 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:20,800 there one day and gone the next. So we just assumed when we ate those small pork chops, 116 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:27,680 that that was pig. Yeah, I'm sure it was. In 1963, 14 year old Robert dropped out of school to work 117 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:34,560 as a butcher's apprentice. In 1970, at the age of 21, he left his apprentice to work full-time on 118 00:12:34,560 --> 00:12:42,480 the family farm. His father died in 1978 and his mother in 1979, leaving the pig farm to Picton and 119 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:48,320 his two siblings. Linda didn't want to farm, so David took the house and Robert took the farm. 120 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:54,240 Robert would tend to the farm and then head home to a remote area on the property and lived in a 121 00:12:54,240 --> 00:13:00,800 trailer. Okay, I mean, I think that's fair. Certainly sounds like he might be on the right path. 122 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:06,320 So there doesn't seem to be a lot of interaction with Linda here since she was sent off to live 123 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:12,720 with other family members. Right. Okay. Nothing like a little hard work though. Exactly. One of 124 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:18,880 the farm hands by the name of Bill Hiscock called the farm a creepy looking place and said Robert 125 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:24,800 was a quiet guy who occasionally showed some bizarre behavior. Well, first of all, I did look 126 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:32,720 this farm up and it is definitely not kept very well. So yeah, it was creepy, but what kind of 127 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:38,640 bizarre behaviors do you know? Well, he would imitate animals and even played a practical joke 128 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:44,000 on Christmas Eve when he released some of the hogs into the streets. He was later quoted as referencing 129 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:50,080 these pigs with local quote working girls. In other words, sex workers. So he associated the 130 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:56,720 pigs with sex workers. Yes. I mean, I know that we've done several episodes where killers have 131 00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:04,000 mummy issues and go after the sex workers, but I don't get the link yet. No. As an introduction 132 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:09,920 to what follows, I would like to say that this is Canada's largest investigation of any serial 133 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:16,800 killer in Canadian history. The cost of the investigation was $70 million by the end of 134 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:24,640 2003. Canadians refer to Picton killings as a pig killer killings. In 1996, the Picton brothers 135 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:31,920 registered a nonprofit charity on the rundown farm called Piggy Palace Good Times Society. 136 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:37,200 Yeah. That's actually a pretty cute name. Well, it's weird for me. Well, it's weird, 137 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:43,760 but it's in association to a pig farm, but that's true. That's true. Yeah. So it was registered with 138 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:48,400 the Canadian government with that name. The Picton siblings often had gatherings that took 139 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:55,200 place in a converted slaughterhouse on the farm. Events included raves and wild parties 140 00:14:55,200 --> 00:15:02,560 and patrons were often Vancouver sex workers. Does that surprise us? So they were invited? 141 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:10,640 Yes. Okay. So it was a select group of individuals. Okay. All right. Now I'm starting to get it. And 142 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:15,200 with that, I think that I can see that Robert's starting to set the scene. 143 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,880 Yes. Okay. Just to note the events that took place on the farm, the Pictons were eventually 144 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:27,360 sued by Port Coquitlam officials for violating zoning ordinance, which included neglecting 145 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:33,120 agriculture for which it had been zoned and for having altered a large farm building on the land 146 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:39,600 for the purpose of holding dances, concerts, and other recreations. Of course, Robert ignored the 147 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:46,800 violation orders and held a 1998 New Year's Eve party after which they received an injunction 148 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,000 banning future parties. So somebody called the cops because they were being too loud. 149 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:59,600 Exactly. That's what my thoughts are too. The society's nonprofit status was removed in 1999 150 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:04,960 for the inability to produce financial statements. Well, I can imagine how those are. They're 151 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:11,440 probably in a shoe box. Oh yeah. Or if they had any financial statements at all, because it sounds 152 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:17,600 to me like they just wanted a party. Yeah. Why did they register the name if they didn't plan on 153 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:24,560 running it that way? But I guess that's another story. On March 23rd, 1997, Robert was charged 154 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:30,240 with the attempted murder of Wendy Lynn Ice Tether. Robert had stabbed her several times 155 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:36,560 during this assault. Ice Tether told police that Robert handcuffed her, but she managed to escape. 156 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:42,240 Well, that's good. She was able to disarm Robert and stabbed him with his own weapon. Good for her. 157 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:49,760 Go girl. Yes, Robert sought treatment at Eagle Ridge Hospital while Ice Tether was recovering 158 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:56,640 in the emergency department next door. He was soon arrested and was released on a $2,000 bond. 159 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:04,080 In January 1998, the charges were dismissed. Why? I mean, Wendy clearly had a solid case. 160 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:10,240 How could that happen? Well, unfortunately, Wendy was addicted to drugs and police felt that this 161 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:16,640 case could go two ways. One, Wendy's testimony might not hold up in court because she might 162 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:23,200 not give a consistent or accurate account as to what happened. Okay. Well, based on my vacation 163 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:30,640 that I just came home from, I can understand that. Or two, both she and Robert were both stabbed in 164 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:37,200 this incident. So it was really one person's word against the other as to how the events took place. 165 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:42,640 Okay. That makes sense. It does. So self-defense versus self-defense. 166 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,840 Now I'm going to talk about the murders. Remember the farmhand named Bill Hisscox? 167 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:52,720 Yes. While he noticed that women who visited the farm eventually went missing. 168 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:58,080 Police were also conducting an investigation on several of these missing women in the area, 169 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:03,840 along with investigating Robert and his brother, Dave, for firearms violations. 170 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:09,680 So it sounds like Dave is not much better than Robert. 171 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,800 Exactly. I guess growing up with that same mother. 172 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,600 Yeah, I'm sure. Do you know what the age difference was? 173 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:21,680 No. Okay. This led the police to serve a warrant to search the Picton property. Both Picton brothers 174 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:29,040 were arrested on February 5th, 2002 for firearm violations. Once they were released the next day, 175 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,560 police kept Robert under surveillance. But not Dave? 176 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:37,360 They didn't mention Dave. Dave is probably by Robert anyways, but they probably put the 177 00:18:37,360 --> 00:18:42,480 injunction against Robert. Yeah. If he was the one really running the farm, he was the one 178 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,280 that had the handful of pigs, right? Yes. 179 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:51,040 Okay. What they found in the search of the Picton farm, police obtained a second warrant to search 180 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:55,920 the property as part of the British Columbia missing women investigation. During the second 181 00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:02,080 search of the property, they meet a gruesome discovery. Personal belongings to some of the 182 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,800 missing women were found along with some of their remains. Oh my. 183 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:13,120 On February 22nd, 2002, Robert Picton was arrested and charged with two counts of first 184 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:17,920 degree murder in the deaths of women. Remember the bizarre behavior I mentioned earlier? 185 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:23,920 Yes. Animal noises. Well, surveillance footage from the jail cell captured Robert holding up 186 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:30,560 a glass of orange juice up to the camera as if to give a celebratory toast, as if he was proud of 187 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,440 these accomplishments on the farm. Oh my. 188 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,760 That is just totally wrong. Yeah. That is bizarre. 189 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,880 I think it just goes to show you, you know, I didn't read anything about a psychiatry report, 190 00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:50,320 but they certainly could have done one on him. I'm sure they probably did, but strange person 191 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,640 all the way around for sure. Excavations at the Picton farm 192 00:19:54,640 --> 00:20:01,840 continued from Robert's arrest through November, 2003. He was eventually charged with a total of 193 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:09,200 27 first degree murders between April, 2002 and May, 2005. 194 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,960 Wow. That is a lot in such a short time. 195 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,720 Clearly he's not the right of mind. The investigation itself took three years, 196 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:23,040 but you said his parents died when he was what? In his late twenties? 197 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:30,160 So he had time. I'm thinking he had done this over a period of time. It was just them 198 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:34,320 finding all the evidence in a three year period through their investigations. 199 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:40,960 One of these murder charges was later dropped due to lack of evidence, keeping 26 counts on the table. 200 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:46,240 Oh gosh, that's still a lot. Forensic analysis on the property was difficult 201 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:52,640 because Robert's victims' bodies were left exposed to the elements and were eaten by both insects and 202 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:55,760 pigs on the farm. What do you think about that Deb? 203 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:02,560 Well, I will say this. We have family members who were in the pig farming business at one point, 204 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,240 and I loved to go play upstairs in the hayloft. I did too. 205 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:15,440 But walking past that one little section where their pigs were at, I was terrified that I would 206 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:22,080 fall into the pigs. And I have heard that pigs can be quite aggressive. Oh. 207 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:26,480 Yeah. I was pretty scared at the time. So was he feeding them to the pigs? 208 00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:27,920 Yes. That's terrible. 209 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:35,840 On March 10th, 2004, the government revealed that Robert may have ground up human flesh 210 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,880 and mixed it with pork that he sold to the public. 211 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:45,280 I know that's one of the things that really grosses me out is when you hear stories like this. 212 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:51,920 Oh God, yes. If I ever bought pork from Robert Picton. Okay. Let's say I bought it a month ago 213 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,720 when I found out what he did. I'm pretty sure I would just have a continuous stream of vomit, 214 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:01,920 Beth. That's awful. And that's beyond anything I can even fathom. I'm getting, 215 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,520 ugh, I'm getting worked up about this just thinking about that. 216 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,480 Yeah. Remember I had mentioned he only kept a handful of pigs to sell to the locals, Deb? 217 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,400 Well, the province's health authority later issued a warning. 218 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,000 What would you do in that situation? If you knew that you bought 219 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,200 pork from Robert Picton, what would your response be? 220 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,160 I don't know. I probably would vomit like you. 221 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:25,440 Yeah. Ugh. 222 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:31,600 Now we're at the preliminary inquiry, which is a judicial hearing that is used in serious criminal 223 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,280 cases to determine whether there is enough evidence to go to trial. 224 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:41,920 Okay. They found remains and personal items on the property. So I'm hoping that maybe 225 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:48,320 there's enough evidence. Robert's preliminary inquiry was held in 2003 226 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:54,720 and had a publication ban until 2010. So is that like the same ban that the 227 00:22:54,720 --> 00:23:00,880 Canadian judicial system placed on Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamoka when we talked about them? 228 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,000 I believe so. 229 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:02,480 Okay. 230 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:09,200 Picton's attempted murder of Wendy Ice Teder in 1997 was revealed during this time, 231 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:14,640 which I talked about earlier. There was a stay, however, in that case, which means when a judge 232 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:20,240 or crown decides that it would be bad for the justice system for a case to continue, 233 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:24,000 that the issue of guilt or innocence is never determined. 234 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,320 That's when they dropped the charges on Wendy because it was his word against hers and vice 235 00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:28,960 versa. 236 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,160 Oh, for Wendy. 237 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:30,560 Yeah. 238 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:37,040 Yeah. Sorry. The date for the jury trial was set to start January 8th, 2007, 239 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:43,840 but was later postponed to January 22nd. On that day, Robert had six first degree murder 240 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,280 charges against him. 241 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,720 Why only six? 242 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:52,240 That's probably the only things that they found crucial evidence in identification. 243 00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:58,160 Oh yeah. Okay. I see that like when you were talking about the Canadian judicial system 244 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:02,800 and how that were, okay, that makes sense. That's too bad though. 245 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:08,880 Yes. The media ban was lifted and for the first time, Canadians heard the gory details 246 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:15,200 of what was found during the long investigations. Skulls were cut and submerged in a pink soup of 247 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:20,640 decomposing human matter where hands and feet were shoved inside the skull. 248 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:21,920 My. 249 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:28,320 The heads, hands and feet of two women were found in buckets in a workshop freezer. 250 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:29,200 Oh, wow. 251 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,720 It doesn't get worse than this. This is something from a movie. 252 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:36,480 Yes. Absolutely. Like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre. 253 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:42,000 Yes. Remains of one victim was stuffed in a garbage bag and her bloodstained clothes were 254 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:47,280 found in Robert's trailer. Part of another victim's jawbone and teeth were found beside 255 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:54,080 Robert's slaughterhouse. A.22 caliber revolver with an attached dildo contained both Robert's 256 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,840 and his victim's DNA. In a video recording, Robert admitted to using the dildo on the end 257 00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:08,080 of the revolver to use as a silencer. Wow. As of February 20th, 2007, the following 258 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:14,320 information was presented to the court. There were 80 unidentified DNA profiles, 259 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:20,080 both male and female, on evidence. So there could have likely been 80 victims. 260 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,880 Yes. Or more. Wow. 261 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:30,480 Items found in Robert's trailer included a loaded.22 revolver with a dildo over the barrel and 262 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:32,560 one round fired. Wow. 263 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:40,640 Along with a.357 Magnum handgun and ammunition, night vision goggles, two pairs of faux fur-lined 264 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:48,400 handcuffs, a syringe with three milliliters of blue liquid inside and a Spanish fly aphrodisiac. 265 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,600 I don't know what that is. You don't know what an aphrodisiac is? 266 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:55,200 No, I don't know what a Spanish fly aphrodisiac is. 267 00:25:55,200 --> 00:26:00,560 Oh, no, I don't know neither, but it's something I've heard. I'm sure you have too. No? 268 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:05,440 I don't think so. I'm pretty naive. Well, you look that up and I'll continue to 269 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,680 talk to our folks. I will. 270 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:14,160 A videotape of Robert's friend saying that Picton told him that a good way to kill a heroin 271 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:20,320 addict was to inject her with windshield washer fluid. Now I hear that's very brutally painful. 272 00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:26,160 Yeah, I've heard the same thing. And that aphrodisiac is just basically a, 273 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:31,680 I think it's a common substance, so nothing special about it. I guess it's just a name 274 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,240 for an aphrodisiac. Okay. 275 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:40,000 A second tape of an associate named Andrew Bellwood who said Robert mentioned killing 276 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:45,120 sex workers by handcuffing and strangling them, then bleeding and gutting them before 277 00:26:45,120 --> 00:26:49,120 feeding them to the pigs. Oh my gosh. Wow. 278 00:26:49,120 --> 00:26:54,000 Yeah, but you can see why it was such a sensationalized case in Canada. 279 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,440 Yes. And there were photos of remains of one 280 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,360 victim's contents in a garbage can in Robert's slaughterhouse. 281 00:27:01,360 --> 00:27:05,600 So he's got his trophies. He does. So we're going to move on to the 282 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:13,440 verdict. On December 9th, 2007, the jury returned with a verdict that Robert was not guilty on six 283 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:19,280 counts of first degree murder, but was guilty on six counts of second degree murder. 284 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,400 What's the difference? Do you know? No, maybe you want to look that up. 285 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:27,760 Not right now. Okay. So on December 11th, 2007, after 286 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:34,080 reading 18 victim impact statements, British Columbia's Supreme Court Judge Justice James 287 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:41,120 Williams sentenced Robert to life in prison with no possibilities of parole for 25 years, 288 00:27:41,120 --> 00:27:46,720 the maximum punishment for second degree murder and equal to the sentence of first degree murder. 289 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,880 This means that Robert will have a parole hearing in just 10 years. 290 00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:58,160 So what you're telling me is that he got 25 years for as many victims as they found. 291 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:04,560 It was all lumped into 25 years, even though they found 80 DNA samples at the property. 292 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,080 Yes. Well, you have to remember that there may have been those bodies, 293 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:14,240 but they weren't identified. So I wonder if maybe some of those DNA 294 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,480 samples came from the piggy parties that the Pictons held on the farm. 295 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:24,160 Could be. Good thought. Now you said he had a parole hearing 10 years 296 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:30,080 into his sentence. So that would have come up, what, in 2017? Is he out today? 297 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:32,160 No. Well, thank goodness. 298 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,720 I don't think he'll ever get out. But they'll continue to have parole hearings. 299 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:41,440 Oh yes. You have regular ones. Okay. So not as long as he's giving a 300 00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,440 toast for his behavior on video. Exactly. 301 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:49,920 The Court of Appeal dismissed the defense appeal by two to one majority. 302 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,320 Good. They also allowed the crown to 303 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:57,520 appeal based on the fact that the trial judge erred by excluding some evidence. 304 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:04,080 Plus separating the total of 26 counts between one group of 20 and one group of six. 305 00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:09,120 The order was stayed because the conviction on the group of six counts of second degree 306 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:15,120 murder would not be able to be set aside. So tell me why did the court separate the 307 00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:19,760 victims into two different groups? Well, they felt that charging Picton with 308 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:25,440 all 26 murders would be too much for the jury. So they took six of the cases based on the material 309 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:32,480 evidence they found during the original investigation. So the ones, the six cases they felt were the most 310 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:34,080 strong. Yes. 311 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:40,000 Okay. I see. I'm going to add a documentary to the show notes so our listeners can watch it later. 312 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:46,160 It gives a lot more details of the victim's identity than what we can fit in today's episode. 313 00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,520 Okay. On July 30th, 2010, 314 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:54,640 the Supreme Court of Canada made its decision and dismissed Robert's appeal and affirmed his 315 00:29:54,640 --> 00:30:00,880 convictions. The argument that Picton should be granted a new trial was unanimously rejected by 316 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,800 the justices of the Supreme Court of Canada. I mean, to me, that's just common sense. 317 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:13,680 It certainly is. During a court hearing on August 4th, 2010, Judge Williams stated that 318 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:19,440 Picton should be committed to a federal penitentiary. Up to that point, he was held in a provincial 319 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:25,920 pretrial institution. In June, 2018, he was allegedly transferred from Kent Institution 320 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:33,520 in British Columbia to another penitentiary in Port Carche, Quebec. In 2015, the Picton property 321 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:39,120 was fenced off, under lean by the Crown of Right of British Columbia, and all buildings on the 322 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,880 property except for one small barn were demolished. Town homes are now built in the surrounding area, 323 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,840 along with some walking trails. And you would never know that the Picton farm ever existed 324 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,560 except for that one small barn that is fenced off. Wow. Isn't that something that they could 325 00:30:54,560 --> 00:31:00,320 take the property like that and turn it into just an updated version of society? 326 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,000 Yeah. If I knew about the case, I certainly wouldn't live there. 327 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:10,320 No. So there you have it. Robert Picton, the pig farmer killer, Canada's most infamous serial killer. 328 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,040 So Deb, do you have a teachable moment? Oh, goodness. Let me think about this for a moment, 329 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:19,520 because that was tough to listen to. Yeah. It was tough putting this one together. 330 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:26,400 I'm sure there's a lot more components, but let's go back to Robert Picton's personal hygiene for a 331 00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:33,120 moment. You had mentioned that his mother had sent him to school smelling like the farm. I get that. 332 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:38,560 People get busy and they're tending to animals. And you did mention that she probably treated the 333 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:45,200 animals a little better than her own children, but maybe it wasn't just his mother. Maybe Robert 334 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:52,880 found going to school with poor hygiene was just a way to deliberately keep people away from him. 335 00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:59,200 Because if you're going through things in your personal life, not necessarily at school, then 336 00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:04,880 maybe he was withdrawn into himself and it was easier to keep people away. What do you think of 337 00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:10,400 that? That's a very good point. I never thought of that one. Well, in today's day and age, school 338 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:17,520 officials obviously are much more aware of mental health, especially since COVID. There's a lot of 339 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,280 mental health issues with teenagers, but I would take this as a warning sign that obviously 340 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:29,520 something's not right at home. When a kid comes to school looking dirty and smelling dirty, 341 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:34,720 you know something's got to be going on. So teachable moment. If you are an adult, 342 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:42,160 like a teacher or even a neighbor who knowingly observes a child's physical condition, get yourself 343 00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:48,880 involved. It's better to send children's services out to a wellness check rather than them growing 344 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:55,920 into a person like Robert picked and did. But maybe if other adults took action, Robert may not have 345 00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:02,000 done what he did, but unfortunately that I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that. Okay. 346 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,240 And that's a wrap. Well, that is a wrap. Thanks so much for that, Beth. As always, the great 347 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:14,320 storyteller. I appreciate that and we appreciate our listeners. So thanks for coming and joining 348 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,640 us today. Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast forum. 349 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:26,800 Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying, the number two, 350 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,560 the letter B found. If you like our episodes, please rate, share, and consider buying us a 351 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:39,840 coffee. Be sure to leave a comment at buymeacoffee.com slash dying to be found spelled just like you see 352 00:33:39,840 --> 00:34:06,640 it in our logo. And thanks everyone. We will talk to you next Thursday. Bye.