Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started,
I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and
crimes against animals and or humankind. Recordings are not intended for young or
sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Well hello everyone, I'm Deb and I'm Beth and we want to welcome you to episode number
24 of Dying to be Found. We're so glad that you're taking time out of your day to day to be with us.
Beth and I are always trying to find stories that you can relate to and leave the content up to you,
our listeners. If you have a story that you would like to hear, please email us at dying the number
2 the letter B found at gmail.com and if you'd like to know more about our podcast or your hosts,
please visit dying to be found dot com spell just like you see it on our logo. So Beth,
how are you today? Awesome. Oh, tell me more. Just did a lot of things this morning before
we're taping here and it feels good to get things done. It sure was. I'm going to give our listeners
a little heads up. Beth and I tried to record early this morning and we both found that mornings are
probably not the best time for us. So we took a break. It's later in the afternoon and I think
we're both ready to go here. I think so. I feel so much more awake. Me too. Hey, listen, I wanted
to tell you a real quick thing just before we get started today. As you know, I've been traveling
around quite a bit and I just returned from a family trip to Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
Oh boy, Beth, was that ever an eye opener? I'd never been there before. Have you heard of Myrtle
Beach? I heard of Myrtle Beach, but I thought that was in Florida. Oh, well, Florida beaches are
really beautiful because the sand is white, the water is blue or emerald green, depending on where
you're at. But the further north you go, obviously the Atlantic, it gets a little gray. Well, that
wasn't the problem, Beth. What was? I don't know if you ever book Airbnbs or VRBOs. Yes, had terrific
success. Good. And I have too up until this week. I was a little bit more than surprised when I
pulled up to the property that I rented for our family to get together. And Beth, what we walked
into, it was horrifying. Let's just say that we rented in a crack neighborhood or a meth head
neighborhood. It was awful. It would be my gosh. I was stewing over it probably for the first couple
of days. You stayed there more than one day? Yeah, we went for three days. I would have looked for
another place. I mean, we already paid. You couldn't get your money back. Oh, that's true.
I would have. I actually told my kids, I am willing to get a hotel to get us out of here.
It was not the house itself was not bad, but I went and looked at the pictures again and
hindsight's a little 2020. You can kind of read between the lines at that point. Well, we had
meth heads walking up and down the streets 24 seven. We had homeless people camped right next to us
in an empty lot. The neighborhood itself was, oh gosh, crumbling buildings around us. I mean,
I don't want to speak badly of people because everybody's circumstances are so different,
but for the amount of money that we paid for prime beach season, I was flabbergasted.
What really, really just put me over the edge is when I opened the oven to go make some lunch,
there was a huge pan of leftover moldy macaroni and cheese sitting inside that oven.
Oh, M G. Yeah. And you use that oven. Oh my God. Oh, yes. I did. I had to feed the kids.
Oh my gosh. I know. All right. So I did stew on it for a few days and bath, I swear.
I'm really a kind person when it comes to giving reviews. So I emailed the owner and told them,
look, you know, I was tolerant at first, but I'm just going to tell you before I put this on a
review, your fault's advertising. I'm a little bit perturbed at this point because I sent him a
picture of the mac and cheese. He was like, Oh no, sorry for your experience, but that's about it.
Not good. Yeah. What do you do? Looking back, the pictures were fine, but I don't know. I mean,
I look at reviews too. Anyway, long story short is I won't be returning to Myrtle beach. I think
I'm going to go back to the Florida area where the sand is white and the water's blue. And you know,
where you're staying and I know where I'm staying. Hey, listen, okay. I know we need to get started
here. So I'm going to pass you the reins and let you take over from here. And unless there's
anything else you want to talk about, then I say, let's go. I want to talk about this case. Okay.
Let's go. Thanks Deb. Today we're going to talk about a pretty famous case that takes place in
British Columbia, Canada. This case is about the pig farmer killer, also known as Robert William
or Willie Pickton. Robert was one of three children born to Leonard and Louise Pickton on October 24th,
1949. He came from three generations of a family of pig farmers in port Coquitlam, British Columbia,
27 kilometers or 17 miles east of Vancouver. When it was Robert's turn to take over the farm,
he raised only a handful of pigs to sell to local residents. So he didn't make much money off of pig
farming. He had other interests. What kind of interests? Well, you'll see, don't want to give
up the goods yet. Yeah, probably not a good idea. I mean, I know where it's going because of our
genre, but okay, let's go. All right. Growing up in the Pickton household was very dysfunctional.
According to family and friends, Leonard was violently abusive towards Robert. Friends and
family said that Leonard had very little influence over his children. So he was an absent father.
Yes. But then there's Louise, his mother. Oh boy. Louise, on the other hand, seemed to rule the
roost. Robert and his young brother, Dave, began working on the farm at an early age. Their mother
was very demanding and tended to the pigs far more than she did towards her own children.
Oh, I know. She often sent them to school and unwashed clothes, smelling like manure, dirt,
and dead animals. Oh my gosh. Okay. First of all, gross, but secondly, shame on her. Do we know how
impressionable kids are at that age? Kids are mean. Like they're the meanest human beings in the
world. They are. They pick on each other. So why would she do such a thing? Well, we're going to
find out about why he smells like dead animals. Okay. Well, he's a pig farmer. He is. I'm going
to start there. And I've been on pig farms before. Oh, we have. So I know what it smells like.
Yep. The two boys were called names in school because they stink so badly. And classmates
called them stinky piggy. If Robert didn't want to be found around the farm, he would hide in the
gutted carcasses of large hogs. Oh, I know. Isn't that gross? Yeah. Think about it though. Small
child can certainly fit into something like that. Wow. Okay. Obviously that's probably one of the
reasons why he carries that odor. Yes. That's what I was thinking too. Yeah. This reminds me of being
in elementary school when several of my classmates would pick on one of the girls in my class period
and they always told her that she had fleas. That's so sad. It is. I mean, I guess at the time,
you know, so-and-so has fleas, but I always thought that was so mean. I actually befriended
this girl and it wasn't because I felt sorry for her, Beth. I was just pretty much nice to everybody.
A lot of the kids in my class grew up on farms, but they came to school just as clean as I did.
So I guess I don't really understand how Robert's mother could do such a thing and send him to school
that way. No, I don't neither. It goes to show you her frame of mind, which I will actually get into
again. Okay. A lot is revealed about Louise for a variety of reasons. One being that she sent
Robert's older sister, Linda, off to live with relatives because Louise didn't think a farm was
a proper place to raise a daughter. Then there's a story that eventually had everyone talking.
On October 16th, 1967, when Dave, Robert's younger brother, got his driver's lesson at age 16,
he took his father's truck out for a drive. A 14-year-old boy named Tim Barrett was walking
down the road and somehow Dave slammed right into Tim. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Dave knew right away that
Tim was in bad shape, so he ran home and told his mother what had happened. He did the right thing.
He did. Louise stopped what she was doing and quickly went to the injured boy. Okay. Well,
that's good. Yeah. After looking Tim over, she leaned down and rolled Tim down the embankment,
turned around and went back home. What? Yeah. That goes to show you her son at least has a
conscience and she certainly doesn't. Wow. So she's teaching her boys already how to behave.
She sure is. The next morning, a neighbor whose son had seen Tim the night before went out to
search for him because he wasn't seen in the morning. During his search, he found Tim's shoes
and scoured the area. Peeking over the embankment, the neighbor and Tim's mother spotted his body
lying in the water. Oh gosh. So Pickton's mom knowingly rolled him down into a body of water
and let him drown? Yes. Oh my gosh. Police arrived right away and pulled Tim's body out of the water.
His autopsy revealed the cause of death was drowning. He did not die from his injuries in
the accident. After the accident was investigated, Louise was never charged, but Dave was sent to
juvenile court. Oh my gosh. So did anyone find out about Louise's play in Tim's death? Because
earlier you said that everybody was talking about what had happened to Tim. I don't know what
happened because from what I read, it said that word got around. So was there any speculation or
did Dave just keep his mouth shut? I'm assuming just word of mouth back then. You know, there
wasn't the TV news like there is now. Yeah. More than three stations that we grew up with. Exactly.
Growing up in his early teens, Robert used his savings to buy a calf, which became a pet to him.
After school one day, he couldn't find his pet and asked his mother where it was. His mother replied,
check the barn. Off Robert went to the barn and there he found his pet slaughtered.
Okay. So me being one with nature and animals, Beth, that's so cruel, but do you remember
that we had a pet pig? Sure do. Do you remember its name? No. What was it? Pig. Yeah. Dad wouldn't
let us name the pig because we were going to have that pig in our freezer that winter. Oh my. And I
remember having pork chops one night saying, these are the smallest pork chops I've ever seen. This
must be pig. Well, at least we didn't grow up thinking it was a pet. I mean, honestly behind
the scenes, yes I did because Kathy and I secretly called the pig Wilbur from that movie Charlotte's
Web. Oh, that's heartbreaking. I know. Well, we knew what was going to happen. I mean, the pig was
there one day and gone the next. So we just assumed when we ate those small pork chops,
that that was pig. Yeah, I'm sure it was. In 1963, 14 year old Robert dropped out of school to work
as a butcher's apprentice. In 1970, at the age of 21, he left his apprentice to work full-time on
the family farm. His father died in 1978 and his mother in 1979, leaving the pig farm to Picton and
his two siblings. Linda didn't want to farm, so David took the house and Robert took the farm.
Robert would tend to the farm and then head home to a remote area on the property and lived in a
trailer. Okay, I mean, I think that's fair. Certainly sounds like he might be on the right path.
So there doesn't seem to be a lot of interaction with Linda here since she was sent off to live
with other family members. Right. Okay. Nothing like a little hard work though. Exactly. One of
the farm hands by the name of Bill Hiscock called the farm a creepy looking place and said Robert
was a quiet guy who occasionally showed some bizarre behavior. Well, first of all, I did look
this farm up and it is definitely not kept very well. So yeah, it was creepy, but what kind of
bizarre behaviors do you know? Well, he would imitate animals and even played a practical joke
on Christmas Eve when he released some of the hogs into the streets. He was later quoted as referencing
these pigs with local quote working girls. In other words, sex workers. So he associated the
pigs with sex workers. Yes. I mean, I know that we've done several episodes where killers have
mummy issues and go after the sex workers, but I don't get the link yet. No. As an introduction
to what follows, I would like to say that this is Canada's largest investigation of any serial
killer in Canadian history. The cost of the investigation was $70 million by the end of
2003. Canadians refer to Picton killings as a pig killer killings. In 1996, the Picton brothers
registered a nonprofit charity on the rundown farm called Piggy Palace Good Times Society.
Yeah. That's actually a pretty cute name. Well, it's weird for me. Well, it's weird,
but it's in association to a pig farm, but that's true. That's true. Yeah. So it was registered with
the Canadian government with that name. The Picton siblings often had gatherings that took
place in a converted slaughterhouse on the farm. Events included raves and wild parties
and patrons were often Vancouver sex workers. Does that surprise us? So they were invited?
Yes. Okay. So it was a select group of individuals. Okay. All right. Now I'm starting to get it. And
with that, I think that I can see that Robert's starting to set the scene.
Yes. Okay. Just to note the events that took place on the farm, the Pictons were eventually
sued by Port Coquitlam officials for violating zoning ordinance, which included neglecting
agriculture for which it had been zoned and for having altered a large farm building on the land
for the purpose of holding dances, concerts, and other recreations. Of course, Robert ignored the
violation orders and held a 1998 New Year's Eve party after which they received an injunction
banning future parties. So somebody called the cops because they were being too loud.
Exactly. That's what my thoughts are too. The society's nonprofit status was removed in 1999
for the inability to produce financial statements. Well, I can imagine how those are. They're
probably in a shoe box. Oh yeah. Or if they had any financial statements at all, because it sounds
to me like they just wanted a party. Yeah. Why did they register the name if they didn't plan on
running it that way? But I guess that's another story. On March 23rd, 1997, Robert was charged
with the attempted murder of Wendy Lynn Ice Tether. Robert had stabbed her several times
during this assault. Ice Tether told police that Robert handcuffed her, but she managed to escape.
Well, that's good. She was able to disarm Robert and stabbed him with his own weapon. Good for her.
Go girl. Yes, Robert sought treatment at Eagle Ridge Hospital while Ice Tether was recovering
in the emergency department next door. He was soon arrested and was released on a $2,000 bond.
In January 1998, the charges were dismissed. Why? I mean, Wendy clearly had a solid case.
How could that happen? Well, unfortunately, Wendy was addicted to drugs and police felt that this
case could go two ways. One, Wendy's testimony might not hold up in court because she might
not give a consistent or accurate account as to what happened. Okay. Well, based on my vacation
that I just came home from, I can understand that. Or two, both she and Robert were both stabbed in
this incident. So it was really one person's word against the other as to how the events took place.
Okay. That makes sense. It does. So self-defense versus self-defense.
Now I'm going to talk about the murders. Remember the farmhand named Bill Hisscox?
Yes. While he noticed that women who visited the farm eventually went missing.
Police were also conducting an investigation on several of these missing women in the area,
along with investigating Robert and his brother, Dave, for firearms violations.
So it sounds like Dave is not much better than Robert.
Exactly. I guess growing up with that same mother.
Yeah, I'm sure. Do you know what the age difference was?
No. Okay. This led the police to serve a warrant to search the Picton property. Both Picton brothers
were arrested on February 5th, 2002 for firearm violations. Once they were released the next day,
police kept Robert under surveillance. But not Dave?
They didn't mention Dave. Dave is probably by Robert anyways, but they probably put the
injunction against Robert. Yeah. If he was the one really running the farm, he was the one
that had the handful of pigs, right? Yes.
Okay. What they found in the search of the Picton farm, police obtained a second warrant to search
the property as part of the British Columbia missing women investigation. During the second
search of the property, they meet a gruesome discovery. Personal belongings to some of the
missing women were found along with some of their remains. Oh my.
On February 22nd, 2002, Robert Picton was arrested and charged with two counts of first
degree murder in the deaths of women. Remember the bizarre behavior I mentioned earlier?
Yes. Animal noises. Well, surveillance footage from the jail cell captured Robert holding up
a glass of orange juice up to the camera as if to give a celebratory toast, as if he was proud of
these accomplishments on the farm. Oh my.
That is just totally wrong. Yeah. That is bizarre.
I think it just goes to show you, you know, I didn't read anything about a psychiatry report,
but they certainly could have done one on him. I'm sure they probably did, but strange person
all the way around for sure. Excavations at the Picton farm
continued from Robert's arrest through November, 2003. He was eventually charged with a total of
27 first degree murders between April, 2002 and May, 2005.
Wow. That is a lot in such a short time.
Clearly he's not the right of mind. The investigation itself took three years,
but you said his parents died when he was what? In his late twenties?
So he had time. I'm thinking he had done this over a period of time. It was just them
finding all the evidence in a three year period through their investigations.
One of these murder charges was later dropped due to lack of evidence, keeping 26 counts on the table.
Oh gosh, that's still a lot. Forensic analysis on the property was difficult
because Robert's victims' bodies were left exposed to the elements and were eaten by both insects and
pigs on the farm. What do you think about that Deb?
Well, I will say this. We have family members who were in the pig farming business at one point,
and I loved to go play upstairs in the hayloft. I did too.
But walking past that one little section where their pigs were at, I was terrified that I would
fall into the pigs. And I have heard that pigs can be quite aggressive. Oh.
Yeah. I was pretty scared at the time. So was he feeding them to the pigs?
Yes. That's terrible.
On March 10th, 2004, the government revealed that Robert may have ground up human flesh
and mixed it with pork that he sold to the public.
I know that's one of the things that really grosses me out is when you hear stories like this.
Oh God, yes. If I ever bought pork from Robert Picton. Okay. Let's say I bought it a month ago
when I found out what he did. I'm pretty sure I would just have a continuous stream of vomit,
Beth. That's awful. And that's beyond anything I can even fathom. I'm getting,
ugh, I'm getting worked up about this just thinking about that.
Yeah. Remember I had mentioned he only kept a handful of pigs to sell to the locals, Deb?
Well, the province's health authority later issued a warning.
What would you do in that situation? If you knew that you bought
pork from Robert Picton, what would your response be?
I don't know. I probably would vomit like you.
Yeah. Ugh.
Now we're at the preliminary inquiry, which is a judicial hearing that is used in serious criminal
cases to determine whether there is enough evidence to go to trial.
Okay. They found remains and personal items on the property. So I'm hoping that maybe
there's enough evidence. Robert's preliminary inquiry was held in 2003
and had a publication ban until 2010. So is that like the same ban that the
Canadian judicial system placed on Paul Bernardo and Carla Hamoka when we talked about them?
I believe so.
Okay.
Picton's attempted murder of Wendy Ice Teder in 1997 was revealed during this time,
which I talked about earlier. There was a stay, however, in that case, which means when a judge
or crown decides that it would be bad for the justice system for a case to continue,
that the issue of guilt or innocence is never determined.
That's when they dropped the charges on Wendy because it was his word against hers and vice
versa.
Oh, for Wendy.
Yeah.
Yeah. Sorry. The date for the jury trial was set to start January 8th, 2007,
but was later postponed to January 22nd. On that day, Robert had six first degree murder
charges against him.
Why only six?
That's probably the only things that they found crucial evidence in identification.
Oh yeah. Okay. I see that like when you were talking about the Canadian judicial system
and how that were, okay, that makes sense. That's too bad though.
Yes. The media ban was lifted and for the first time, Canadians heard the gory details
of what was found during the long investigations. Skulls were cut and submerged in a pink soup of
decomposing human matter where hands and feet were shoved inside the skull.
My.
The heads, hands and feet of two women were found in buckets in a workshop freezer.
Oh, wow.
It doesn't get worse than this. This is something from a movie.
Yes. Absolutely. Like the Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
Yes. Remains of one victim was stuffed in a garbage bag and her bloodstained clothes were
found in Robert's trailer. Part of another victim's jawbone and teeth were found beside
Robert's slaughterhouse. A.22 caliber revolver with an attached dildo contained both Robert's
and his victim's DNA. In a video recording, Robert admitted to using the dildo on the end
of the revolver to use as a silencer. Wow. As of February 20th, 2007, the following
information was presented to the court. There were 80 unidentified DNA profiles,
both male and female, on evidence. So there could have likely been 80 victims.
Yes. Or more. Wow.
Items found in Robert's trailer included a loaded.22 revolver with a dildo over the barrel and
one round fired. Wow.
Along with a.357 Magnum handgun and ammunition, night vision goggles, two pairs of faux fur-lined
handcuffs, a syringe with three milliliters of blue liquid inside and a Spanish fly aphrodisiac.
I don't know what that is. You don't know what an aphrodisiac is?
No, I don't know what a Spanish fly aphrodisiac is.
Oh, no, I don't know neither, but it's something I've heard. I'm sure you have too. No?
I don't think so. I'm pretty naive. Well, you look that up and I'll continue to
talk to our folks. I will.
A videotape of Robert's friend saying that Picton told him that a good way to kill a heroin
addict was to inject her with windshield washer fluid. Now I hear that's very brutally painful.
Yeah, I've heard the same thing. And that aphrodisiac is just basically a,
I think it's a common substance, so nothing special about it. I guess it's just a name
for an aphrodisiac. Okay.
A second tape of an associate named Andrew Bellwood who said Robert mentioned killing
sex workers by handcuffing and strangling them, then bleeding and gutting them before
feeding them to the pigs. Oh my gosh. Wow.
Yeah, but you can see why it was such a sensationalized case in Canada.
Yes. And there were photos of remains of one
victim's contents in a garbage can in Robert's slaughterhouse.
So he's got his trophies. He does. So we're going to move on to the
verdict. On December 9th, 2007, the jury returned with a verdict that Robert was not guilty on six
counts of first degree murder, but was guilty on six counts of second degree murder.
What's the difference? Do you know? No, maybe you want to look that up.
Not right now. Okay. So on December 11th, 2007, after
reading 18 victim impact statements, British Columbia's Supreme Court Judge Justice James
Williams sentenced Robert to life in prison with no possibilities of parole for 25 years,
the maximum punishment for second degree murder and equal to the sentence of first degree murder.
This means that Robert will have a parole hearing in just 10 years.
So what you're telling me is that he got 25 years for as many victims as they found.
It was all lumped into 25 years, even though they found 80 DNA samples at the property.
Yes. Well, you have to remember that there may have been those bodies,
but they weren't identified. So I wonder if maybe some of those DNA
samples came from the piggy parties that the Pictons held on the farm.
Could be. Good thought. Now you said he had a parole hearing 10 years
into his sentence. So that would have come up, what, in 2017? Is he out today?
No. Well, thank goodness.
I don't think he'll ever get out. But they'll continue to have parole hearings.
Oh yes. You have regular ones. Okay. So not as long as he's giving a
toast for his behavior on video. Exactly.
The Court of Appeal dismissed the defense appeal by two to one majority.
Good. They also allowed the crown to
appeal based on the fact that the trial judge erred by excluding some evidence.
Plus separating the total of 26 counts between one group of 20 and one group of six.
The order was stayed because the conviction on the group of six counts of second degree
murder would not be able to be set aside. So tell me why did the court separate the
victims into two different groups? Well, they felt that charging Picton with
all 26 murders would be too much for the jury. So they took six of the cases based on the material
evidence they found during the original investigation. So the ones, the six cases they felt were the most
strong. Yes.
Okay. I see. I'm going to add a documentary to the show notes so our listeners can watch it later.
It gives a lot more details of the victim's identity than what we can fit in today's episode.
Okay. On July 30th, 2010,
the Supreme Court of Canada made its decision and dismissed Robert's appeal and affirmed his
convictions. The argument that Picton should be granted a new trial was unanimously rejected by
the justices of the Supreme Court of Canada. I mean, to me, that's just common sense.
It certainly is. During a court hearing on August 4th, 2010, Judge Williams stated that
Picton should be committed to a federal penitentiary. Up to that point, he was held in a provincial
pretrial institution. In June, 2018, he was allegedly transferred from Kent Institution
in British Columbia to another penitentiary in Port Carche, Quebec. In 2015, the Picton property
was fenced off, under lean by the Crown of Right of British Columbia, and all buildings on the
property except for one small barn were demolished. Town homes are now built in the surrounding area,
along with some walking trails. And you would never know that the Picton farm ever existed
except for that one small barn that is fenced off. Wow. Isn't that something that they could
take the property like that and turn it into just an updated version of society?
Yeah. If I knew about the case, I certainly wouldn't live there.
No. So there you have it. Robert Picton, the pig farmer killer, Canada's most infamous serial killer.
So Deb, do you have a teachable moment? Oh, goodness. Let me think about this for a moment,
because that was tough to listen to. Yeah. It was tough putting this one together.
I'm sure there's a lot more components, but let's go back to Robert Picton's personal hygiene for a
moment. You had mentioned that his mother had sent him to school smelling like the farm. I get that.
People get busy and they're tending to animals. And you did mention that she probably treated the
animals a little better than her own children, but maybe it wasn't just his mother. Maybe Robert
found going to school with poor hygiene was just a way to deliberately keep people away from him.
Because if you're going through things in your personal life, not necessarily at school, then
maybe he was withdrawn into himself and it was easier to keep people away. What do you think of
that? That's a very good point. I never thought of that one. Well, in today's day and age, school
officials obviously are much more aware of mental health, especially since COVID. There's a lot of
mental health issues with teenagers, but I would take this as a warning sign that obviously
something's not right at home. When a kid comes to school looking dirty and smelling dirty,
you know something's got to be going on. So teachable moment. If you are an adult,
like a teacher or even a neighbor who knowingly observes a child's physical condition, get yourself
involved. It's better to send children's services out to a wellness check rather than them growing
into a person like Robert picked and did. But maybe if other adults took action, Robert may not have
done what he did, but unfortunately that I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that. Okay.
And that's a wrap. Well, that is a wrap. Thanks so much for that, Beth. As always, the great
storyteller. I appreciate that and we appreciate our listeners. So thanks for coming and joining
us today. Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast forum.
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