Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on
harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast.
Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Hi everyone, this is Deb and I'm Beth and we want to thank you for dropping in today.
To learn more about your hosts, we encourage you to visit our website at Dying to be Found.com.
And Beth's got a really good episode today.
We are going to talk about part two with Paul Bernardo and Carla Homoka.
And is there anything you want to say, Beth, before we get started?
Yes, I'm going to start by saying that I'm going to be talking about the
first and then the last chapter of the episode and we will talk about that in the middle of my video.
OK, let me see, let's see how it turns out.
And it's sitting on her mouth now because she's written a very long note that he's going to die if that關 access.
And so we just want us to know what to say Beth before we get started.
Yeah, so I just got back from vacation and I took a 12 hour train ride to visit my daughter and her family.
I did. I had a really good time and I'm dying to go back and I'm already trying to think
how can I pack a lighter.
Hey, how was the train ride? Because that's cool.
All the way up, I just daydreamed out the window. I guess I needed that much decompressing.
Oh yeah.
The trip went so quickly both ways that I can't believe a 12 hour trip can go that quick.
Did you meet anybody?
Nobody wanted to talk. I got all the young kids.
Oh yeah. They're all on their cell phones scrolling, I'm sure. That's our society today.
Yeah, exactly. I wanted somebody to talk to to help, you know, pass the time.
Yeah, I'll be on a plane ride in a couple weeks and I anticipate the same thing because
I do realize people don't want to talk, but John will be with me so he will be my talking
partner.
Great. Where are you going?
We're going to Oregon to see his girls and I'm excited because it's been decades since
I've been out to the West Coast and yeah, we got some things planned. It's going to
be exciting.
Great.
Yeah. Anything else before we get started?
No.
Okay.
Not at all.
Okay. Well, I'm going to hand you the reins. Here we go.
Okay. Just a couple of things before we get started. Because there are two homo-cas being
discussed in this episode, we will refer to Paul Bernardo as Paul and Carla homo-ca as
Carla.
Great. Beth, just a real quick question before you continue. I have noticed that in the first
episode as well as any other true crime podcasts that I've listened to, they always refer to
this case as Bernardo and homo-ca. Do you know if Carla ever changed her last name when
they got married?
I don't believe so. Where she lives now, I'm pretty sure that they don't change their last
name when they're in Quebec.
Yeah. I kind of wondered why they always refer to her as that. I know they got married to
Ken and Barbie. I always wondered about that.
Yeah. Okay. Well, in part one, we learned about Paul Bernardo and Carla homo-ca's backgrounds
and when they first met. Deb, I heard from several sources that if Carla had never met
Paul, she likely would have never participated in these types of crimes that we're about
to discuss.
Is that coming from psychiatrists?
It's coming from authorities and they said that just together, they are a toxic couple.
Yeah. I can see that. I do recall from part one, Carla was probably considered a school
bully, but yeah, I can kind of see when, if you have the type of personality that Paul
Bernardo had, it's surely possible for her to kind of follow suit. I get that.
Exactly. Well, Paul and Carla were eventually married, but given their despicable behaviors
as a couple, we will spare you the details of their courtship. Our case today is about
a twisted married Canadian couple who were also known as the Ken and Barbie killers.
In part one, we discussed Paul Bernardo's connection as a Scarborough rapist, but we
will be talking today about his escapades with Carla and their victims. You will learn
how together these two became a toxic duo who became a great danger to society.
Goodness.
If you haven't listened to part one, I do encourage you to go back and listen to our
introduction of Bernardo and Homoka because it does give a good background of their personalities
and how they became so sinister after they got together.
Yeah. Okay. So that's kind of where they were talking about how Carla would not have
done any of this had she not met him.
Yes.
Gotcha.
I did want to mention that upon their 1987 chance meeting in a hotel bar, Paul and Carla
started dating, which we touched on in part one. The two had an instant attraction to
one another. And if you have looked up their pictures, you have to admit that they're a
good looking couple.
Yeah, they are.
Paul Bernardo was 23 at the time he met Carla Homoka, who was just 17. Their attention to
one another only intensified when Paul discovered that unlike any other girl he dated, Carla
shared a lot of the same sick fantasies. They quickly began a sadomasochistic relationship
that was pretty much 50 shades of gray. But an added caveat to this story is they all
the while Paul and Carla were dating, Paul was also brutally raping girls in the Scarborough
suburbs of Toronto, Canada. And Deb, you aren't going to believe this. Carla was completely
aware of what he was doing and gave him her approval.
Wow.
Hi, honey. I'm going out for a little while and you'll know what I'm doing.
That's probably right. But it just sounds laughable because it sounds so wrong. Inhumane.
Yeah. And it sounds like a twisted neurotic pretzel. That's what it sounds like. That's
weird.
Yes.
See, I find that hard to believe that if you're saying that she was giving him the go ahead
to do that, then how can you say that she wouldn't have done any of her crimes if she
had not met him? I don't understand that part. Again, I'm not a psychiatrist.
Exactly. I agree. Well, in today's episode, I'm going to talk about the crimes Paul Bernardo
and Carla Homolka participated in plus their days in court. But first I wanted to mention
that during their engagement, Carla had mentioned how much she admired her fiance because he
was so romantic.
Oh, not really. I'm being facetious.
Like just three years into their relationship, Paul was beginning to exhibit boredom. He
continuously complained that Carla was not a virgin when they met, which eventually caused
him to turn his attention elsewhere. And Deb, this was towards Carla's very own sister Tammy,
who was just 15 years old.
Wow.
In 1990, Paul was spending long periods of time with Carla's family. He fit in well
and everyone liked him.
Boy, didn't he have them fooled.
Mm-hmm. Paul loved to flirt with the ladies in the family and eventually turned his attention
to Tammy Homolka. What do you think of that?
Yeah, that's crazy. I'm a little perplexed because I wouldn't put up with that. If I
was witnessing my partner hitting on my sister, that's not cool.
It isn't. So almost immediately, Paul became obsessed with Tammy. He would peer into her
window while she changed her clothes. And get this, Carla once assisted Paul in entering
Tammy's bedroom by breaking the locks on the window. Deb, does anything jump out at you
here?
Didn't you mention in part one that Paul Bernardo had a habit of being a peeping Tom? I think
his neighbor caught him when he was in his teens, right?
Right. Remember that he was caught peeping in a girl's window and the neighbor brushed
it off as a teenage curiosity.
Yeah, that's wild. I don't know. If I were the person catching him, I might want to be
in touch with Paul's parents for sure.
For sure, I would be. On December 23rd, 1990, Carla wanted to give Paul a Christmas present,
but not just any present, a very special one. She wanted to give Paul Tammy's virginity
because he was so disappointed that Carla was not a virgin when the two met. Following
Carla's assistance with getting Paul into Tammy's bedroom, Carla laced spaghetti sauce
with Valium she stole from her employer at the animal clinic. She served this dish to
Tammy who became unconscious. This is when Bernardo raped Tammy while Carla watched.
Oh my gosh. That's okay. I have no words. I'm sitting here. I'm sure you see my mouth
wide open here. I'm just like my jaw dropped. That's crazy.
It's sick. Well, Carla and Paul continued to administer sleeping pills to Tammy in a
rum and eggnog cocktail. After Tammy lost consciousness, Carla and Paul undressed her.
Carla then took a halothane soap cloth, which is a type of anesthetic to her sister's mouth.
With the Hamilka parents asleep in bed, Carla and Paul videotaped themselves raping Tammy
in the basement. I know that is so freakish. As you said, there's just no words.
No, there's really not. I mean, I'm just sitting here. The mindset is just something I cannot
wrap my head around. No, and I probably said in part one that I
never had intentions of touching this case because it is so foul. But I don't know. I
guess I just felt that it was such a infamous case that it had to be told.
Yes. People do need to know about this because there's so much going on in the world that
yeah, I mean, as a public service, people need to be aware of going with that gut feeling.
If something doesn't set well when you meet people, you've got to really pay attention
to that. With the Hamilka parents asleep in bed upstairs,
Carla and Paul videotaped themselves raping Tammy in the basement. Tammy began to vomit
and eventually stopped breathing. Carla and Paul attempted to revive Tammy, but it was
too late. Tammy died because Carla didn't have a clue what she was doing with a combination
of drugs she had given to her sister. That's a shame.
It really is. And the main point here is I didn't want to touch this case because it
involved her own sister. And I do have a hard time with that.
Yeah, I can understand. I love you, Beth. I would never do that to you.
I love you too, Deb. Once the couple hid all evidence of wrongdoing,
they called 911. They put Tammy's clothes back on, then took her upstairs and placed
her on the bed in her bedroom so nothing looked suspicious other than a 15 year old being
passed out from drinking. Carla and Paul both told authorities that Tammy was drinking and
vomiting and that she choked on her vomit. Unfortunately, Tammy was pronounced dead a
few hours later after she was taken to the hospital.
Yeah, could you imagine, eh? After this devastating news was given to the
family, Carla dressed up in Tammy's clothes for Paul and pretended to be Tammy.
That's taking that pretty far considering that she just killed her own sister.
I never heard of such a thing being done in any of the cases I've ever listened to or
watched to. This is just a freakish couple. Yeah, for sure. They definitely get off on
some different fetishes. They do. And unfortunately, they even videotaped
themselves while they were doing all this. Wow. Just wow. Hmm.
Yeah. The duo thought so much about what happened to Tammy that they allowed Carla's parents
to grieve. That's nice of them.
Carla and Paul moved out of the Molka house to a rented Port Dalhousie bungalow, which
is located in the Niagara Falls region of Ontario. Now we're going to talk about Paul
and Carla's second victim, whom we will refer to as Jane Doe. On June 7th, 1991, Carla invited
a 15-year-old girl over to their bungalow that she befriended two years earlier at a
pet store. So she would have only been 13 years old for goodness sakes.
Wait, they met the girl originally when she was 13?
Yes. Yeah, you're right. Okay.
The two went shopping and ate out, after which Carla laced an alcoholic drink with Halcyon.
Halcyon is a sedative that is commonly used to treat insomnia. Once a girl was passed
out, Carla raped Jane Doe herself, followed by Paul, who also sexually assaulted the girl.
The next morning, Jane Doe was alert, but felt very nauseated. However, she chalked
it up to her night of drinking for the first time ever and had no idea that she was sexually
assaulted.
Poor thing. Do you know if Carla and Paul videotaped what they did with this 15-year-old
Jane Doe, since they had a history of doing so?
No idea at all. But it could be because I know there were a lot of videotapes that were
made. Now, you want to remember this name because we are not finished talking about
Jane Doe. She will come up again shortly. But first, we're going to talk about Paul
and Carla's next victim, Leslie Mahaffey. Just one week later, after Jane Doe's assault,
Paul was driving around Burlington, a Toronto suburb, during the early mornings of June
15, 1991. His mission on this night was to steal license plates.
That's random. If he has a history of doing what he's doing in Scarborough, why is he
stealing license plates?
It is random. I don't understand it myself. It's just, it is something random. And maybe
that just goes to show you his psychotic mind just isn't running all on function. While
he was cruising neighborhoods, he caught sight of a young girl walking the streets because
she missed her curfew and was locked out of the house. Paul got out of his car and then
proceeded to abduct Leslie Mahaffey, who was only 14 years old at the time. He certainly
does like the young ones, doesn't he?
Yes, he does. Well, because they're virgins, Beth.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.
And if he had a problem with his own wife who, in part one, when he immediately within
an hour went to bed with her, then that's his MO.
Yes. He blindfolded Leslie and forced her into the car where he drove her out to the
Port Dalhousie bungalow. Paul and Carla proceeded to videotape themselves torturing and sexually
abusing Leslie, all while Leslie screamed in pain and begged the couple to let her go.
Oh, so they're not just assaulting, they're torturing. That's terrible.
Well, I guess it gradually starts, right? You do one and then you want to do harder
and harder things as they go along. And at one point Paul said, you're doing a good job,
Leslie, a damn good job.
Wow. Poor Leslie. During these events, Leslie's blindfold slipped
off and she was able to see the people who were holding her captive. Paul was afraid
that he and Carla could be identified, so Carla fed her with a lethal dose of Halcyon.
Carla later claimed in court that Paul also strangled her.
Oh, goodness. After they had killed her, they put Leslie's
body in the basement for safekeeping and had Carla's parents for dinner that very next
day.
Oh my gosh, this couple.
Weirder and weirder.
Oh my gosh, that's insane.
It is. Well, Paul and Carla knew that they had to get rid of the body and Carla thought
the best way to do so was to dismember the body.
Oh my gosh.
So using Paul's grandfather's circular saw, Leslie's body was cut up into pieces and placed
into cement blocks that the couple made. They were later dropped into Lake Gibson, 18 kilometers
or 11 miles south of Port Dalhousie.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, that's getting sicker and sicker.
Yeah, they're definitely escalating here.
They are. Paul bought a lot of cement and kept the receipt, which was damaging at his
trial.
Whoops.
Wow. Yeah, crooks are stupid.
One of the cement blocks weighed 90 kilograms or 200 pounds and was too heavy to carry.
So it was left near shore where it was found by a man and his son on a fishing expedition
on June 29th, 1991.
During the investigation, Leslie's orthodontic retainer was instrumental in identifying her.
Goodness.
At least they were able to identify her.
Yeah, that's very sad.
Yes. Now I'm going to loop around back to Paul and Carla's second victim for just a
moment. In August, 1991, just two months after Leslie Mahaffey was killed, Jane Doe was invited
back to the Port Dalhousie bungalow to spend the night.
So this is, they met her two years earlier and then they invited her over and dragged
her and did what they did and then they invited her back another time.
Yes. All the while, poor Jane Doe didn't realize what was happening to her previously.
So during the second visit, Paul and Carla fully intended to repeat what they had done
to Jane a few months earlier and drugged her with some of Carla's stolen supplies from
the vet clinic again.
I can't believe the vet clinic is not noticing that some of their pharmaceuticals are missing.
Yeah, that's a good point.
It seems to me it's pretty regular.
So hey, I thought we had some of this on order.
I'd be taking notice of the inventory.
Yes.
But that's just me.
And this is also back in the 90s, so I know things are completely different now.
This time Jane Doe stopped breathing after drinking Carla's drug-induced cocktail and
the couple once again called 911 for help.
Carla called back a few minutes later though to say, forget it.
Everything was okay.
False alarm.
So the authorities never followed up and Jane Doe survived.
Beth, what are the chances of the same two people calling 911 for similar emergencies?
What are the chances that two people would stop breathing while in the same couple's
presence?
I mean, don't police departments have records of 911 calls?
They do, but I'm not sure how they would keep tabs on it because there's so many calls all
the time, right?
Yeah, that's true.
Paul and Carla took a brief cooling period before contemplating their next victim.
On April 16th, 1992, the couple drove around St. Catharines, another Niagara Falls community,
to look for a young girl to kidnap.
This is when they came upon 14-year-old Kristen French.
Carla stood outside her car and pretended to be lost while holding a map.
That is just absolutely terrible.
Okay, so this is all premeditated at this point because they specifically went out hunting
and then they had it all set up on a plan on how to kidnap someone.
It looks like it.
As Kristen approached the car, she came for a closer look at the map Carla was holding
and Paul attacked her from behind.
Holding her at knife point, Paul forced Kristen into the car and sped away.
Poor thing.
Yeah.
Over the course of the weekend, Paul and Carla videotaped themselves torturing, raping, and
sodomizing Kristen, plus forcing her to drink large amounts of alcohol and submit to Paul's
sexual desires.
Kristen was eventually killed before the pair went to Carla's parents' house for the Easter
dinner.
Oh my gosh, what is wrong with this couple?
Seriously sick if you can do some killing and go out to dinner after.
Now, as random as this seems, I'm going to talk about the apprehension and arrest of
Paul Bernardo.
This is random because throughout their marriage, there was never any indication that domestic
violence ever occurred between Paul and Carla.
However, in December 1992, Paul beat the crap out of Carla with a flashlight.
Wow.
I wonder what instigated that.
Yeah, me too.
Following this beating, Carla received multiple bruises over her entire body, a broken rib,
and two black eyes.
Oh wow.
That's pretty severe with a flashlight.
It is.
That is horrendous.
When she returned to work after the holidays, Carla passed off her injuries by telling coworkers
that she had been in a car accident.
I wouldn't say that's out of the ordinary because I will say this.
I mean, I was in a car accident in the 90s and I did receive broken ribs in that.
I mean, the black eyes, I don't know, but to me that sounds sensible, but keep going.
Her coworkers were very skeptical about this story and ended up calling Carla's parents
who immediately went to the Port Dalhousie bungalow and took Carla back to their home
to get away from Paul.
So they have no idea what's going on, obviously.
I mean, I'm sure they're keeping all of this a secret, but I mean, I'm going to say kudos
to them because I would do the same thing.
Later that night, Carla told her aunt and uncle that Paul was a Scarborough rapist,
that she and Paul were involved in the rape and murder of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen
French and that the rapes were recorded on videotape.
Because of these circumstances, the Niagara Regional Police reopened its investigation
of Tammy Homolka's death.
It sounds to me like Carla was reaching her breaking point because, okay, after the beating
and what Paul did to her, maybe she had a conscience, Beth, and maybe she felt like
she couldn't hold back anymore.
Obviously something led up to why Paul attacked her, but maybe she didn't want to do this
anymore and do you think that's maybe why she got beat up so badly?
I think you have a very good point there.
I think you can only take so much and she certainly wasn't in for it for the gore and
what was happening.
So...
Yeah.
And so if it was progressing as it did and escalating, maybe she was really, I mean,
maybe that's where it comes in that the police are saying that she may or may not have participated
in any of these crimes if she was not with Paul.
Exactly.
Hmm.
On May 5th, 1992, Carla's lawyer informed her that the government was offering her a
plea bargain that consisted of 12 years incarceration.
That's not very much.
It's not, but they didn't have the videotapes.
When I heard about this case, all I remember very deeply is the videotapes were lost.
Nobody could find them so there was no evidence.
Oh, that makes zero sense.
Are you saying that they collected the evidence, but it got lost somewhere?
No, they were never able to find those videotapes that Carla had mentioned that they had done.
I'll bet old Paul probably did something with them after he beat her up and she left the
bungalow.
He probably made them disappear.
Don't you think?
The authorities went through the house time and time and time again and it was after Carla's
plea bargain that they found the tapes.
They were up in the roof, up above panels of the ceiling.
So it was too late.
It was too late.
Oh, so that's why she has 12 years incarceration and not life.
Got you.
Okay.
So the plea bargain authorities charged Carla with one count of first degree murder, one
count of second degree murder, plus other additional charges.
Carla accepted these terms of the plea deal on May 14th.
She provided statements to investigators.
During the testimony, Carla told police that Paul had boasted that he raped as many as
30 women and even referred to him as the happy rapist.
So wait, Paul's calling himself the happy rapist?
Yes.
Okay.
Wow.
All right.
He's full of himself.
Yes, he is.
A public ban was imposed on Carla Homolka's preliminary inquiry because there was fear
that Paul Bernardo would not receive a fair trial.
But this ban did not hold much weight because it was issued for Ontario only, which I find
crazy.
Yeah.
I guess that was hindsight probably on the authorities part.
Exactly.
I'm sure they're a lot more careful now.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Public access for the rest of Canada nullified this court order, as did the proximity to
the United States border.
Wow.
So basically, word spread quickly in Canada and the United States, so it became an international
sensation.
So what I'm hearing is there was nothing that they could do to stop the information from
being broadcast at that time, right?
Exactly.
Most journalists were not subject to the publication ban and published details of Carla Homolka's
testimony to newspapers in Buffalo, Detroit, Washington DC, New York City, and the United
Kingdom.
Wow.
A global sensation.
Exactly.
Paul Bernardo was put on trial for the murders of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French in 1995.
His trial included detailed testimony from Carla Homolka, plus the videotaped evidence
of the rapes.
So it looks to me there that they did find the tapes at that stage in the game.
Okay.
Do you think that they continued the search, but Carla was giving all the information they
didn't have them, but through the search warrants, they eventually came across them?
That's right.
On September 1st, 1995, Paul was convicted of a number of offenses, including two first
degree murder charges and two aggravated sexual assault charges.
He was sentenced to life in prison without parole for at least 25 years.
Paul was officially declared as a dangerous offender by his psychiatrist, making him unlikely
to ever be released.
So I have a question about the laws in Canada, because I know here in the United States,
life in prison is 25 years, but in certain states, I know when they say life in prison,
it means they are going to die in prison.
As in if somebody goes to prison at 18 years old, they will die in prison and never get
out.
So my question is, will Paul Bernardo never be released in Canada?
Or is he going to serve his 25 years?
Or is life there considered 25 years because 25 years has passed already and he's still
in prison, correct?
Correct.
He's had some parole hearings and the public outcry was so strong that he wasn't paroled.
So you think that he's going to die in prison?
Yes.
Okay.
As well he should, in my opinion, as well he should, but I didn't know if there was
a difference in how the legal system looks at life in prison there.
Well, I'm going to tell you a little bit about what they discovered when they were doing
assessment and that might help answer your question.
Oh, okay.
Paul scored 35 out of 40 on the psychopathy checklist.
A psychological assessment tool was used to assess clinical psychopathic tendencies in
individuals.
During an October 2018 parole hearing, evidence from expert psychiatric reports found that
Paul had, quote, deviant sexual interests and he met the diagnostic criteria of sexual
sadism, voyeurism, and paraphilia, unquote.
In other words, Paul Bernardo was considered to be a high risk for repeat offenses in physical
harm or torture towards others, receiving sexual pleasure from participating in or watching
others commit harm or participating in abnormal sexual activities involving dangerous acts.
Wow.
So this basically sums up everything that he had done to Tammy, Leslie, Kristen, and
Jane Doe.
Exactly.
The report also stated that Paul met their criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder
and also met the requirement for a diagnosis of psychopathy, meaning he was more likely
to repeat violent sexual offending.
The report concluded that Paul showed minimal insight into his offending, meaning that he
never really took ownership of anything he had done.
Wow.
So he's got no conscience.
Exactly.
Paul Bernardo originally became eligible for parole in February 2018.
However, based on the psychiatric reports that I had mentioned earlier, he was denied
day parole and full parole by the Parole Board of Canada on October 17th, 2018.
Yay.
So that means that he will not get out.
Right.
Good.
I stated earlier that in Carla Hamoka's plea bargain, she would only receive a 12-year sentence
for her part in her crimes.
This plea bargain was criticized by many Canadians since Paul Bernardo's first defense lawyer,
Ken Murray, withheld the videotapes for a total of 17 months.
Ken Murray, the lawyer, had the tapes?
Yeah.
Do you think that's why they disappeared?
Mm-hmm.
It took them a long time to find them.
So I guess when they did find them, they were hidden.
I gotcha.
These tapes were considered crucial evidence in both Paul and Carla's court cases, and
prosecutors said that they would never have agreed to Carla's plea bargain had they seen
these tapes beforehand.
Oh yeah, for sure.
Ken Murray was later acquitted of obstruction of justice and faced a disciplinary hearing
by the Law Society of Upper Canada.
Woo-woo.
So the lawyer was charged for obstruction of justice.
Yes.
By withholding those tapes for 17 months.
Mm-hmm, exactly.
Okay, but he was acquitted.
Okay.
If there was a lawyer-client confidentiality, then I suppose that he probably had every
right to withhold those tapes.
Right.
Or did he?
You always make me think outside the box.
I mean, just a thought process.
I don't know.
My brain works in just the facts.
Like seriously, if you're talking about situations here, my brain goes along the lines of give
me the facts.
I should have been a lawyer.
I don't know.
I've tried a dozen things in my life.
Lawyer was not one of them.
What is your favorite that you have done?
What's my favorite what?
Job.
Oh, out of everything that I've done?
Mm-hmm.
I'm going to say the one I'm in now.
I'm trying to keep a low profile in my circle of professionalism.
Yeah, definitely what I'm doing now.
I think it's definitely something that I was called to do.
Good.
On May 18th, 1993, Carla was arraigned on two counts of manslaughter.
While in prison, she studied through correspondence courses at the nearby Queens University and
eventually graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology of all things.
Huh.
I wonder what she's going to do with that.
Yeah.
She was released from prison under strict instructions.
For example, she was ordered to report to authorities her home address, work address,
and anyone residing at the same residence.
Plus, she was restricted from ever contacting Paul Bernardo nor any of the family members
of her victims, and she was forbidden to ever be in the company of anyone under the age
of 16.
Well, what if she eventually had children?
Would that be an exception?
Does she have children today?
She does.
I'll tell you about that in a minute, but that is a very good point.
If she's ever forbidden to be in the company of anyone under 16, you would think she wouldn't
be allowed to have children, but then that's going against the constitution too, isn't
it?
Sure.
Yeah, that's human rights right there.
So she was required to continue therapy and counseling, and she was required to provide
a DNA sample to police.
On July 4th, 2005, Carla was released from prison.
Following her release, she settled in Quebec.
Carla eventually granted her first interview to Radio Canada Television, speaking entirely
in French.
During this interview, Carla mentioned that she had found the people in Quebec were much
more accepting of her past over people living in Ontario.
Carla eventually married Terry Bordelais, who happened to be the brother of her lawyer.
She briefly lived in the Antilles, Guadalupe, but by 2014, she returned to Quebec.
She is still married and the couple have three children.
And there you have it, the Ken and Barbie murders.
Oh, there you go.
Look at her having a family life.
That's a beautiful ending.
Deb, any more thoughts on this case?
Sure.
There's one thing to mention that occurred to me while you were talking about this case,
and I'm sure I've heard this on another podcast or documentary somewhere, but did you know
at some point in time, Carla was a substitute teacher?
If I had, that's something I forgot about.
I knew she was involved with a school doing volunteer work.
Oh, maybe it was a volunteer.
So if she was forbidden to be around children under the age of 16, what was it?
If she was forbidden to stay away from children under the age of 16, I don't think she was
taking her restrictions very seriously.
I do recall that there was community outcry when people found out who she was and she
was not in that school system for long.
So exactly.
Yes, you were, you're very right.
Yeah.
So I think once those parents found out who she was, all heck broke loose.
And so I'm sure that's probably when she ended up in the Antilles or Guadalupe for a little
while to get some downtime, do you think?
So Deb, do you have a teachable moment for us today?
Teachable moment.
Well, our legal systems are in place for a reason.
And I think that both you and I can agree, Beth, that Paul Bernardo is a psychopath and
definitely needs to to remain behind bars while Carla Hamoka was also given her due
justice, Beth, according to the Canadian laws.
And she did reach a plea deal in the penal system.
So that was dealt with accordingly, don't you think?
Yes.
As horrible as this sounds, Carla did pay her debt to society under the eyes of the
law.
So in my opinion, it's really not our place to judge.
It is our responsibility, though, is to accept that she is now living as a free citizen.
So due diligence, I do believe that she has paid her debts to society and hopefully she
is remorseful and regretful and what she did every day of her life.
I really don't want to know what she's up to these days.
But I will say that teachable moment at some point, it is our responsibility to show grace.
What do you think about that?
Well said, I do have a difficult time with that.
But what you said is true.
She did do her time of 12 years.
But giving grace for me personally, I have a hard time with that.
And I can understand that.
I don't want our listeners to be angry with what I'm saying, but you just have to kind
of keep that in alignment with she did serve her time that she was given.
So in all fairness, she's out in society now and I'm hoping that she's living her life
in the straight and narrow.
But really, it's not my place to judge her at this point.
Right.
Well said.
Okay.
Well, gosh, Beth, you're such a good storyteller.
Thanks for sharing that.
I know it was hard on you because you had mentioned you did not want to do this case.
But yeah, in all actuality, I do believe this needed to be told.
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