1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,680 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on 2 00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:11,680 harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:17,280 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 4 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:19,840 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 5 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:25,440 Hi everyone, this is Deb and I'm Beth and we want to thank you for dropping in today. 6 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:31,360 To learn more about your hosts, we encourage you to visit our website at Dying to be Found.com. 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,560 And Beth's got a really good episode today. 8 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:40,800 We are going to talk about part two with Paul Bernardo and Carla Homoka. 9 00:00:40,800 --> 00:00:44,320 And is there anything you want to say, Beth, before we get started? 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,840 Yes, I'm going to start by saying that I'm going to be talking about the 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,240 first and then the last chapter of the episode and we will talk about that in the middle of my video. 12 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:55,200 OK, let me see, let's see how it turns out. 13 00:00:55,200 --> 00:01:01,920 And it's sitting on her mouth now because she's written a very long note that he's going to die if that關 access. 14 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,080 And so we just want us to know what to say Beth before we get started. 15 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:13,200 Yeah, so I just got back from vacation and I took a 12 hour train ride to visit my daughter and her family. 16 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:17,980 I did. I had a really good time and I'm dying to go back and I'm already trying to think 17 00:01:17,980 --> 00:01:19,460 how can I pack a lighter. 18 00:01:19,460 --> 00:01:22,420 Hey, how was the train ride? Because that's cool. 19 00:01:22,420 --> 00:01:27,020 All the way up, I just daydreamed out the window. I guess I needed that much decompressing. 20 00:01:27,020 --> 00:01:28,360 Oh yeah. 21 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:34,520 The trip went so quickly both ways that I can't believe a 12 hour trip can go that quick. 22 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:35,520 Did you meet anybody? 23 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:38,900 Nobody wanted to talk. I got all the young kids. 24 00:01:38,900 --> 00:01:45,040 Oh yeah. They're all on their cell phones scrolling, I'm sure. That's our society today. 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,080 Yeah, exactly. I wanted somebody to talk to to help, you know, pass the time. 26 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:54,840 Yeah, I'll be on a plane ride in a couple weeks and I anticipate the same thing because 27 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:59,440 I do realize people don't want to talk, but John will be with me so he will be my talking 28 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:00,440 partner. 29 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:01,440 Great. Where are you going? 30 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:06,020 We're going to Oregon to see his girls and I'm excited because it's been decades since 31 00:02:06,020 --> 00:02:10,440 I've been out to the West Coast and yeah, we got some things planned. It's going to 32 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:11,440 be exciting. 33 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:12,440 Great. 34 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:15,120 Yeah. Anything else before we get started? 35 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:16,120 No. 36 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:17,120 Okay. 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:18,120 Not at all. 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,920 Okay. Well, I'm going to hand you the reins. Here we go. 39 00:02:20,920 --> 00:02:26,320 Okay. Just a couple of things before we get started. Because there are two homo-cas being 40 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:32,280 discussed in this episode, we will refer to Paul Bernardo as Paul and Carla homo-ca as 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:33,280 Carla. 42 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:39,720 Great. Beth, just a real quick question before you continue. I have noticed that in the first 43 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:46,520 episode as well as any other true crime podcasts that I've listened to, they always refer to 44 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,800 this case as Bernardo and homo-ca. Do you know if Carla ever changed her last name when 45 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:52,800 they got married? 46 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:58,360 I don't believe so. Where she lives now, I'm pretty sure that they don't change their last 47 00:02:58,360 --> 00:02:59,600 name when they're in Quebec. 48 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:04,520 Yeah. I kind of wondered why they always refer to her as that. I know they got married to 49 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,120 Ken and Barbie. I always wondered about that. 50 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:12,760 Yeah. Okay. Well, in part one, we learned about Paul Bernardo and Carla homo-ca's backgrounds 51 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,680 and when they first met. Deb, I heard from several sources that if Carla had never met 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,840 Paul, she likely would have never participated in these types of crimes that we're about 53 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:22,840 to discuss. 54 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:24,720 Is that coming from psychiatrists? 55 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:30,720 It's coming from authorities and they said that just together, they are a toxic couple. 56 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:37,520 Yeah. I can see that. I do recall from part one, Carla was probably considered a school 57 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:43,440 bully, but yeah, I can kind of see when, if you have the type of personality that Paul 58 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:49,000 Bernardo had, it's surely possible for her to kind of follow suit. I get that. 59 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:54,520 Exactly. Well, Paul and Carla were eventually married, but given their despicable behaviors 60 00:03:54,520 --> 00:03:59,200 as a couple, we will spare you the details of their courtship. Our case today is about 61 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:05,160 a twisted married Canadian couple who were also known as the Ken and Barbie killers. 62 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:10,320 In part one, we discussed Paul Bernardo's connection as a Scarborough rapist, but we 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:15,480 will be talking today about his escapades with Carla and their victims. You will learn 64 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:21,760 how together these two became a toxic duo who became a great danger to society. 65 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:22,760 Goodness. 66 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:27,120 If you haven't listened to part one, I do encourage you to go back and listen to our 67 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,520 introduction of Bernardo and Homoka because it does give a good background of their personalities 68 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,120 and how they became so sinister after they got together. 69 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:41,000 Yeah. Okay. So that's kind of where they were talking about how Carla would not have 70 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,600 done any of this had she not met him. 71 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:44,600 Yes. 72 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:45,600 Gotcha. 73 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,240 I did want to mention that upon their 1987 chance meeting in a hotel bar, Paul and Carla 74 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:55,160 started dating, which we touched on in part one. The two had an instant attraction to 75 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:59,200 one another. And if you have looked up their pictures, you have to admit that they're a 76 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:00,400 good looking couple. 77 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:02,120 Yeah, they are. 78 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:08,400 Paul Bernardo was 23 at the time he met Carla Homoka, who was just 17. Their attention to 79 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:13,680 one another only intensified when Paul discovered that unlike any other girl he dated, Carla 80 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:21,080 shared a lot of the same sick fantasies. They quickly began a sadomasochistic relationship 81 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:26,920 that was pretty much 50 shades of gray. But an added caveat to this story is they all 82 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:32,600 the while Paul and Carla were dating, Paul was also brutally raping girls in the Scarborough 83 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:38,160 suburbs of Toronto, Canada. And Deb, you aren't going to believe this. Carla was completely 84 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,800 aware of what he was doing and gave him her approval. 85 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:42,800 Wow. 86 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:47,040 Hi, honey. I'm going out for a little while and you'll know what I'm doing. 87 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:51,960 That's probably right. But it just sounds laughable because it sounds so wrong. Inhumane. 88 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:56,520 Yeah. And it sounds like a twisted neurotic pretzel. That's what it sounds like. That's 89 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:57,520 weird. 90 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:58,520 Yes. 91 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,800 See, I find that hard to believe that if you're saying that she was giving him the go ahead 92 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:08,280 to do that, then how can you say that she wouldn't have done any of her crimes if she 93 00:06:08,280 --> 00:06:13,040 had not met him? I don't understand that part. Again, I'm not a psychiatrist. 94 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:18,160 Exactly. I agree. Well, in today's episode, I'm going to talk about the crimes Paul Bernardo 95 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,980 and Carla Homolka participated in plus their days in court. But first I wanted to mention 96 00:06:23,980 --> 00:06:29,080 that during their engagement, Carla had mentioned how much she admired her fiance because he 97 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:30,320 was so romantic. 98 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,240 Oh, not really. I'm being facetious. 99 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:38,680 Like just three years into their relationship, Paul was beginning to exhibit boredom. He 100 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:43,480 continuously complained that Carla was not a virgin when they met, which eventually caused 101 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:50,640 him to turn his attention elsewhere. And Deb, this was towards Carla's very own sister Tammy, 102 00:06:50,640 --> 00:06:53,040 who was just 15 years old. 103 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,040 Wow. 104 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:59,040 In 1990, Paul was spending long periods of time with Carla's family. He fit in well 105 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:00,640 and everyone liked him. 106 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,720 Boy, didn't he have them fooled. 107 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,120 Mm-hmm. Paul loved to flirt with the ladies in the family and eventually turned his attention 108 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,520 to Tammy Homolka. What do you think of that? 109 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:14,840 Yeah, that's crazy. I'm a little perplexed because I wouldn't put up with that. If I 110 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:19,160 was witnessing my partner hitting on my sister, that's not cool. 111 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:24,560 It isn't. So almost immediately, Paul became obsessed with Tammy. He would peer into her 112 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:29,840 window while she changed her clothes. And get this, Carla once assisted Paul in entering 113 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:34,680 Tammy's bedroom by breaking the locks on the window. Deb, does anything jump out at you 114 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:35,680 here? 115 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,800 Didn't you mention in part one that Paul Bernardo had a habit of being a peeping Tom? I think 116 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,640 his neighbor caught him when he was in his teens, right? 117 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:49,320 Right. Remember that he was caught peeping in a girl's window and the neighbor brushed 118 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,600 it off as a teenage curiosity. 119 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:56,820 Yeah, that's wild. I don't know. If I were the person catching him, I might want to be 120 00:07:56,820 --> 00:07:59,000 in touch with Paul's parents for sure. 121 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:05,640 For sure, I would be. On December 23rd, 1990, Carla wanted to give Paul a Christmas present, 122 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:12,840 but not just any present, a very special one. She wanted to give Paul Tammy's virginity 123 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:17,520 because he was so disappointed that Carla was not a virgin when the two met. Following 124 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:23,080 Carla's assistance with getting Paul into Tammy's bedroom, Carla laced spaghetti sauce 125 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:28,080 with Valium she stole from her employer at the animal clinic. She served this dish to 126 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:34,040 Tammy who became unconscious. This is when Bernardo raped Tammy while Carla watched. 127 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:40,480 Oh my gosh. That's okay. I have no words. I'm sitting here. I'm sure you see my mouth 128 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:45,520 wide open here. I'm just like my jaw dropped. That's crazy. 129 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:51,000 It's sick. Well, Carla and Paul continued to administer sleeping pills to Tammy in a 130 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:57,720 rum and eggnog cocktail. After Tammy lost consciousness, Carla and Paul undressed her. 131 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,880 Carla then took a halothane soap cloth, which is a type of anesthetic to her sister's mouth. 132 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:10,280 With the Hamilka parents asleep in bed, Carla and Paul videotaped themselves raping Tammy 133 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:17,000 in the basement. I know that is so freakish. As you said, there's just no words. 134 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,360 No, there's really not. I mean, I'm just sitting here. The mindset is just something I cannot 135 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,200 wrap my head around. No, and I probably said in part one that I 136 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:31,760 never had intentions of touching this case because it is so foul. But I don't know. I 137 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:38,280 guess I just felt that it was such a infamous case that it had to be told. 138 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:43,920 Yes. People do need to know about this because there's so much going on in the world that 139 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:50,280 yeah, I mean, as a public service, people need to be aware of going with that gut feeling. 140 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:54,480 If something doesn't set well when you meet people, you've got to really pay attention 141 00:09:54,480 --> 00:10:00,160 to that. With the Hamilka parents asleep in bed upstairs, 142 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:05,360 Carla and Paul videotaped themselves raping Tammy in the basement. Tammy began to vomit 143 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:10,560 and eventually stopped breathing. Carla and Paul attempted to revive Tammy, but it was 144 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:16,140 too late. Tammy died because Carla didn't have a clue what she was doing with a combination 145 00:10:16,140 --> 00:10:20,240 of drugs she had given to her sister. That's a shame. 146 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:26,880 It really is. And the main point here is I didn't want to touch this case because it 147 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:32,200 involved her own sister. And I do have a hard time with that. 148 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:37,000 Yeah, I can understand. I love you, Beth. I would never do that to you. 149 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:41,160 I love you too, Deb. Once the couple hid all evidence of wrongdoing, 150 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,360 they called 911. They put Tammy's clothes back on, then took her upstairs and placed 151 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:51,360 her on the bed in her bedroom so nothing looked suspicious other than a 15 year old being 152 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:56,680 passed out from drinking. Carla and Paul both told authorities that Tammy was drinking and 153 00:10:56,680 --> 00:11:02,080 vomiting and that she choked on her vomit. Unfortunately, Tammy was pronounced dead a 154 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,160 few hours later after she was taken to the hospital. 155 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,560 Yeah, could you imagine, eh? After this devastating news was given to the 156 00:11:10,560 --> 00:11:17,120 family, Carla dressed up in Tammy's clothes for Paul and pretended to be Tammy. 157 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:22,200 That's taking that pretty far considering that she just killed her own sister. 158 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:28,440 I never heard of such a thing being done in any of the cases I've ever listened to or 159 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:34,480 watched to. This is just a freakish couple. Yeah, for sure. They definitely get off on 160 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:40,220 some different fetishes. They do. And unfortunately, they even videotaped 161 00:11:40,220 --> 00:11:45,440 themselves while they were doing all this. Wow. Just wow. Hmm. 162 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:50,320 Yeah. The duo thought so much about what happened to Tammy that they allowed Carla's parents 163 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,040 to grieve. That's nice of them. 164 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:58,120 Carla and Paul moved out of the Molka house to a rented Port Dalhousie bungalow, which 165 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:03,720 is located in the Niagara Falls region of Ontario. Now we're going to talk about Paul 166 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:12,240 and Carla's second victim, whom we will refer to as Jane Doe. On June 7th, 1991, Carla invited 167 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:17,640 a 15-year-old girl over to their bungalow that she befriended two years earlier at a 168 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,920 pet store. So she would have only been 13 years old for goodness sakes. 169 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:25,200 Wait, they met the girl originally when she was 13? 170 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:27,380 Yes. Yeah, you're right. Okay. 171 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:32,880 The two went shopping and ate out, after which Carla laced an alcoholic drink with Halcyon. 172 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:37,800 Halcyon is a sedative that is commonly used to treat insomnia. Once a girl was passed 173 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:43,840 out, Carla raped Jane Doe herself, followed by Paul, who also sexually assaulted the girl. 174 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:49,120 The next morning, Jane Doe was alert, but felt very nauseated. However, she chalked 175 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,760 it up to her night of drinking for the first time ever and had no idea that she was sexually 176 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:55,040 assaulted. 177 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:01,440 Poor thing. Do you know if Carla and Paul videotaped what they did with this 15-year-old 178 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,000 Jane Doe, since they had a history of doing so? 179 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:11,720 No idea at all. But it could be because I know there were a lot of videotapes that were 180 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:17,080 made. Now, you want to remember this name because we are not finished talking about 181 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:21,920 Jane Doe. She will come up again shortly. But first, we're going to talk about Paul 182 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:28,960 and Carla's next victim, Leslie Mahaffey. Just one week later, after Jane Doe's assault, 183 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:34,160 Paul was driving around Burlington, a Toronto suburb, during the early mornings of June 184 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:39,560 15, 1991. His mission on this night was to steal license plates. 185 00:13:39,560 --> 00:13:45,580 That's random. If he has a history of doing what he's doing in Scarborough, why is he 186 00:13:45,580 --> 00:13:47,080 stealing license plates? 187 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,720 It is random. I don't understand it myself. It's just, it is something random. And maybe 188 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:58,840 that just goes to show you his psychotic mind just isn't running all on function. While 189 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,440 he was cruising neighborhoods, he caught sight of a young girl walking the streets because 190 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:09,400 she missed her curfew and was locked out of the house. Paul got out of his car and then 191 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,760 proceeded to abduct Leslie Mahaffey, who was only 14 years old at the time. He certainly 192 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,120 does like the young ones, doesn't he? 193 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,440 Yes, he does. Well, because they're virgins, Beth. 194 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,600 Yeah, my thoughts exactly. 195 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:27,960 And if he had a problem with his own wife who, in part one, when he immediately within 196 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,240 an hour went to bed with her, then that's his MO. 197 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:37,720 Yes. He blindfolded Leslie and forced her into the car where he drove her out to the 198 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:44,760 Port Dalhousie bungalow. Paul and Carla proceeded to videotape themselves torturing and sexually 199 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:51,280 abusing Leslie, all while Leslie screamed in pain and begged the couple to let her go. 200 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:58,160 Oh, so they're not just assaulting, they're torturing. That's terrible. 201 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:06,000 Well, I guess it gradually starts, right? You do one and then you want to do harder 202 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:12,680 and harder things as they go along. And at one point Paul said, you're doing a good job, 203 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:15,520 Leslie, a damn good job. 204 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:24,160 Wow. Poor Leslie. During these events, Leslie's blindfold slipped 205 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,880 off and she was able to see the people who were holding her captive. Paul was afraid 206 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:35,560 that he and Carla could be identified, so Carla fed her with a lethal dose of Halcyon. 207 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Carla later claimed in court that Paul also strangled her. 208 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,760 Oh, goodness. After they had killed her, they put Leslie's 209 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:48,640 body in the basement for safekeeping and had Carla's parents for dinner that very next 210 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:49,640 day. 211 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,160 Oh my gosh, this couple. 212 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:55,160 Weirder and weirder. 213 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:57,640 Oh my gosh, that's insane. 214 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:03,160 It is. Well, Paul and Carla knew that they had to get rid of the body and Carla thought 215 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,960 the best way to do so was to dismember the body. 216 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:09,080 Oh my gosh. 217 00:16:09,080 --> 00:16:15,680 So using Paul's grandfather's circular saw, Leslie's body was cut up into pieces and placed 218 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:23,720 into cement blocks that the couple made. They were later dropped into Lake Gibson, 18 kilometers 219 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,640 or 11 miles south of Port Dalhousie. 220 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,640 Oh my gosh. 221 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,680 Yeah, that's getting sicker and sicker. 222 00:16:31,680 --> 00:16:34,720 Yeah, they're definitely escalating here. 223 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,920 They are. Paul bought a lot of cement and kept the receipt, which was damaging at his 224 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,920 trial. 225 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:42,920 Whoops. 226 00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:46,360 Wow. Yeah, crooks are stupid. 227 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:53,080 One of the cement blocks weighed 90 kilograms or 200 pounds and was too heavy to carry. 228 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:58,300 So it was left near shore where it was found by a man and his son on a fishing expedition 229 00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,520 on June 29th, 1991. 230 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:07,480 During the investigation, Leslie's orthodontic retainer was instrumental in identifying her. 231 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:08,480 Goodness. 232 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,280 At least they were able to identify her. 233 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:15,560 Yeah, that's very sad. 234 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:21,200 Yes. Now I'm going to loop around back to Paul and Carla's second victim for just a 235 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:29,200 moment. In August, 1991, just two months after Leslie Mahaffey was killed, Jane Doe was invited 236 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,480 back to the Port Dalhousie bungalow to spend the night. 237 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:38,440 So this is, they met her two years earlier and then they invited her over and dragged 238 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:43,440 her and did what they did and then they invited her back another time. 239 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:51,440 Yes. All the while, poor Jane Doe didn't realize what was happening to her previously. 240 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,040 So during the second visit, Paul and Carla fully intended to repeat what they had done 241 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:02,160 to Jane a few months earlier and drugged her with some of Carla's stolen supplies from 242 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,120 the vet clinic again. 243 00:18:04,120 --> 00:18:09,960 I can't believe the vet clinic is not noticing that some of their pharmaceuticals are missing. 244 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:11,800 Yeah, that's a good point. 245 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,600 It seems to me it's pretty regular. 246 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,400 So hey, I thought we had some of this on order. 247 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,480 I'd be taking notice of the inventory. 248 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:20,480 Yes. 249 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:21,800 But that's just me. 250 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:27,920 And this is also back in the 90s, so I know things are completely different now. 251 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:33,080 This time Jane Doe stopped breathing after drinking Carla's drug-induced cocktail and 252 00:18:33,080 --> 00:18:36,640 the couple once again called 911 for help. 253 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,520 Carla called back a few minutes later though to say, forget it. 254 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:41,520 Everything was okay. 255 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:42,680 False alarm. 256 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,640 So the authorities never followed up and Jane Doe survived. 257 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:55,480 Beth, what are the chances of the same two people calling 911 for similar emergencies? 258 00:18:55,480 --> 00:19:01,120 What are the chances that two people would stop breathing while in the same couple's 259 00:19:01,120 --> 00:19:02,120 presence? 260 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:06,120 I mean, don't police departments have records of 911 calls? 261 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:12,320 They do, but I'm not sure how they would keep tabs on it because there's so many calls all 262 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:13,760 the time, right? 263 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,160 Yeah, that's true. 264 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:20,720 Paul and Carla took a brief cooling period before contemplating their next victim. 265 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:28,600 On April 16th, 1992, the couple drove around St. Catharines, another Niagara Falls community, 266 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:30,800 to look for a young girl to kidnap. 267 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:36,000 This is when they came upon 14-year-old Kristen French. 268 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,980 Carla stood outside her car and pretended to be lost while holding a map. 269 00:19:39,980 --> 00:19:42,320 That is just absolutely terrible. 270 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:48,920 Okay, so this is all premeditated at this point because they specifically went out hunting 271 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,760 and then they had it all set up on a plan on how to kidnap someone. 272 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:55,600 It looks like it. 273 00:19:55,600 --> 00:20:01,600 As Kristen approached the car, she came for a closer look at the map Carla was holding 274 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,680 and Paul attacked her from behind. 275 00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,480 Holding her at knife point, Paul forced Kristen into the car and sped away. 276 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:10,480 Poor thing. 277 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:11,480 Yeah. 278 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:18,320 Over the course of the weekend, Paul and Carla videotaped themselves torturing, raping, and 279 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:24,560 sodomizing Kristen, plus forcing her to drink large amounts of alcohol and submit to Paul's 280 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,560 sexual desires. 281 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,560 Kristen was eventually killed before the pair went to Carla's parents' house for the Easter 282 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:31,560 dinner. 283 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,360 Oh my gosh, what is wrong with this couple? 284 00:20:34,360 --> 00:20:39,840 Seriously sick if you can do some killing and go out to dinner after. 285 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,680 Now, as random as this seems, I'm going to talk about the apprehension and arrest of 286 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:46,160 Paul Bernardo. 287 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:50,400 This is random because throughout their marriage, there was never any indication that domestic 288 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,960 violence ever occurred between Paul and Carla. 289 00:20:53,960 --> 00:21:00,160 However, in December 1992, Paul beat the crap out of Carla with a flashlight. 290 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:01,160 Wow. 291 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,240 I wonder what instigated that. 292 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,080 Yeah, me too. 293 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:10,840 Following this beating, Carla received multiple bruises over her entire body, a broken rib, 294 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,600 and two black eyes. 295 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,240 Oh wow. 296 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:16,680 That's pretty severe with a flashlight. 297 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:17,680 It is. 298 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:19,400 That is horrendous. 299 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:24,640 When she returned to work after the holidays, Carla passed off her injuries by telling coworkers 300 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:26,720 that she had been in a car accident. 301 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,280 I wouldn't say that's out of the ordinary because I will say this. 302 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:36,960 I mean, I was in a car accident in the 90s and I did receive broken ribs in that. 303 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:43,280 I mean, the black eyes, I don't know, but to me that sounds sensible, but keep going. 304 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:49,320 Her coworkers were very skeptical about this story and ended up calling Carla's parents 305 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:54,800 who immediately went to the Port Dalhousie bungalow and took Carla back to their home 306 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,720 to get away from Paul. 307 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,480 So they have no idea what's going on, obviously. 308 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:04,760 I mean, I'm sure they're keeping all of this a secret, but I mean, I'm going to say kudos 309 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,920 to them because I would do the same thing. 310 00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:13,640 Later that night, Carla told her aunt and uncle that Paul was a Scarborough rapist, 311 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:19,160 that she and Paul were involved in the rape and murder of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen 312 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:24,220 French and that the rapes were recorded on videotape. 313 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:29,200 Because of these circumstances, the Niagara Regional Police reopened its investigation 314 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,480 of Tammy Homolka's death. 315 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:37,920 It sounds to me like Carla was reaching her breaking point because, okay, after the beating 316 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:43,680 and what Paul did to her, maybe she had a conscience, Beth, and maybe she felt like 317 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:45,840 she couldn't hold back anymore. 318 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:53,200 Obviously something led up to why Paul attacked her, but maybe she didn't want to do this 319 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:58,120 anymore and do you think that's maybe why she got beat up so badly? 320 00:22:58,120 --> 00:23:00,220 I think you have a very good point there. 321 00:23:00,220 --> 00:23:06,280 I think you can only take so much and she certainly wasn't in for it for the gore and 322 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:07,760 what was happening. 323 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:08,760 So... 324 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:09,760 Yeah. 325 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:15,520 And so if it was progressing as it did and escalating, maybe she was really, I mean, 326 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,680 maybe that's where it comes in that the police are saying that she may or may not have participated 327 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,640 in any of these crimes if she was not with Paul. 328 00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:25,640 Exactly. 329 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:26,640 Hmm. 330 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:32,120 On May 5th, 1992, Carla's lawyer informed her that the government was offering her a 331 00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:36,360 plea bargain that consisted of 12 years incarceration. 332 00:23:36,360 --> 00:23:38,520 That's not very much. 333 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,280 It's not, but they didn't have the videotapes. 334 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:49,060 When I heard about this case, all I remember very deeply is the videotapes were lost. 335 00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:51,160 Nobody could find them so there was no evidence. 336 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:54,960 Oh, that makes zero sense. 337 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,320 Are you saying that they collected the evidence, but it got lost somewhere? 338 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:06,840 No, they were never able to find those videotapes that Carla had mentioned that they had done. 339 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:12,800 I'll bet old Paul probably did something with them after he beat her up and she left the 340 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:13,800 bungalow. 341 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:15,640 He probably made them disappear. 342 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:16,640 Don't you think? 343 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:24,040 The authorities went through the house time and time and time again and it was after Carla's 344 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,920 plea bargain that they found the tapes. 345 00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:31,120 They were up in the roof, up above panels of the ceiling. 346 00:24:31,120 --> 00:24:32,400 So it was too late. 347 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:34,400 It was too late. 348 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,800 Oh, so that's why she has 12 years incarceration and not life. 349 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:41,800 Got you. 350 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:42,800 Okay. 351 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,400 So the plea bargain authorities charged Carla with one count of first degree murder, one 352 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,560 count of second degree murder, plus other additional charges. 353 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:55,240 Carla accepted these terms of the plea deal on May 14th. 354 00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,160 She provided statements to investigators. 355 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:03,400 During the testimony, Carla told police that Paul had boasted that he raped as many as 356 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:08,620 30 women and even referred to him as the happy rapist. 357 00:25:08,620 --> 00:25:12,400 So wait, Paul's calling himself the happy rapist? 358 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:13,400 Yes. 359 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,400 Okay. 360 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:15,400 Wow. 361 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,400 All right. 362 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:17,400 He's full of himself. 363 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,040 Yes, he is. 364 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:25,160 A public ban was imposed on Carla Homolka's preliminary inquiry because there was fear 365 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:29,200 that Paul Bernardo would not receive a fair trial. 366 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:35,040 But this ban did not hold much weight because it was issued for Ontario only, which I find 367 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,040 crazy. 368 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,040 Yeah. 369 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,840 I guess that was hindsight probably on the authorities part. 370 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,000 Exactly. 371 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,440 I'm sure they're a lot more careful now. 372 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,380 Oh yeah, for sure. 373 00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:52,400 Public access for the rest of Canada nullified this court order, as did the proximity to 374 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:54,400 the United States border. 375 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:55,400 Wow. 376 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:01,760 So basically, word spread quickly in Canada and the United States, so it became an international 377 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,760 sensation. 378 00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:07,680 So what I'm hearing is there was nothing that they could do to stop the information from 379 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,280 being broadcast at that time, right? 380 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:11,280 Exactly. 381 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,800 Most journalists were not subject to the publication ban and published details of Carla Homolka's 382 00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:23,080 testimony to newspapers in Buffalo, Detroit, Washington DC, New York City, and the United 383 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:24,080 Kingdom. 384 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:25,080 Wow. 385 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:26,560 A global sensation. 386 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,560 Exactly. 387 00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:34,680 Paul Bernardo was put on trial for the murders of Leslie Mahaffey and Kristen French in 1995. 388 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,920 His trial included detailed testimony from Carla Homolka, plus the videotaped evidence 389 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:41,280 of the rapes. 390 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:46,520 So it looks to me there that they did find the tapes at that stage in the game. 391 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:47,520 Okay. 392 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,880 Do you think that they continued the search, but Carla was giving all the information they 393 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,240 didn't have them, but through the search warrants, they eventually came across them? 394 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:58,240 That's right. 395 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:05,160 On September 1st, 1995, Paul was convicted of a number of offenses, including two first 396 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:10,080 degree murder charges and two aggravated sexual assault charges. 397 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:15,280 He was sentenced to life in prison without parole for at least 25 years. 398 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:21,620 Paul was officially declared as a dangerous offender by his psychiatrist, making him unlikely 399 00:27:21,620 --> 00:27:24,180 to ever be released. 400 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:32,320 So I have a question about the laws in Canada, because I know here in the United States, 401 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:39,000 life in prison is 25 years, but in certain states, I know when they say life in prison, 402 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,560 it means they are going to die in prison. 403 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:47,880 As in if somebody goes to prison at 18 years old, they will die in prison and never get 404 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,880 out. 405 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:55,240 So my question is, will Paul Bernardo never be released in Canada? 406 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,480 Or is he going to serve his 25 years? 407 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:04,800 Or is life there considered 25 years because 25 years has passed already and he's still 408 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,600 in prison, correct? 409 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:07,600 Correct. 410 00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:15,600 He's had some parole hearings and the public outcry was so strong that he wasn't paroled. 411 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,720 So you think that he's going to die in prison? 412 00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:18,720 Yes. 413 00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:19,720 Okay. 414 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,840 As well he should, in my opinion, as well he should, but I didn't know if there was 415 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:29,720 a difference in how the legal system looks at life in prison there. 416 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:34,200 Well, I'm going to tell you a little bit about what they discovered when they were doing 417 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,680 assessment and that might help answer your question. 418 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,680 Oh, okay. 419 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:43,160 Paul scored 35 out of 40 on the psychopathy checklist. 420 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:48,720 A psychological assessment tool was used to assess clinical psychopathic tendencies in 421 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,360 individuals. 422 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:57,160 During an October 2018 parole hearing, evidence from expert psychiatric reports found that 423 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:03,840 Paul had, quote, deviant sexual interests and he met the diagnostic criteria of sexual 424 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:09,080 sadism, voyeurism, and paraphilia, unquote. 425 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:15,080 In other words, Paul Bernardo was considered to be a high risk for repeat offenses in physical 426 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:22,080 harm or torture towards others, receiving sexual pleasure from participating in or watching 427 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:29,520 others commit harm or participating in abnormal sexual activities involving dangerous acts. 428 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:30,600 Wow. 429 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:37,240 So this basically sums up everything that he had done to Tammy, Leslie, Kristen, and 430 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:38,560 Jane Doe. 431 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:39,600 Exactly. 432 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:45,880 The report also stated that Paul met their criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder 433 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,560 and also met the requirement for a diagnosis of psychopathy, meaning he was more likely 434 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,560 to repeat violent sexual offending. 435 00:29:54,560 --> 00:30:00,040 The report concluded that Paul showed minimal insight into his offending, meaning that he 436 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,320 never really took ownership of anything he had done. 437 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,320 Wow. 438 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:05,720 So he's got no conscience. 439 00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:06,720 Exactly. 440 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,800 Paul Bernardo originally became eligible for parole in February 2018. 441 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:18,280 However, based on the psychiatric reports that I had mentioned earlier, he was denied 442 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:26,240 day parole and full parole by the Parole Board of Canada on October 17th, 2018. 443 00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:27,240 Yay. 444 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:29,440 So that means that he will not get out. 445 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:30,440 Right. 446 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,440 Good. 447 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:36,440 I stated earlier that in Carla Hamoka's plea bargain, she would only receive a 12-year sentence 448 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,600 for her part in her crimes. 449 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:44,880 This plea bargain was criticized by many Canadians since Paul Bernardo's first defense lawyer, 450 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:49,360 Ken Murray, withheld the videotapes for a total of 17 months. 451 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,080 Ken Murray, the lawyer, had the tapes? 452 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,080 Yeah. 453 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,880 Do you think that's why they disappeared? 454 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:55,880 Mm-hmm. 455 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,560 It took them a long time to find them. 456 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,960 So I guess when they did find them, they were hidden. 457 00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:02,120 I gotcha. 458 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:07,040 These tapes were considered crucial evidence in both Paul and Carla's court cases, and 459 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:12,640 prosecutors said that they would never have agreed to Carla's plea bargain had they seen 460 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:14,080 these tapes beforehand. 461 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:16,200 Oh yeah, for sure. 462 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:22,320 Ken Murray was later acquitted of obstruction of justice and faced a disciplinary hearing 463 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,120 by the Law Society of Upper Canada. 464 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,440 Woo-woo. 465 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:33,600 So the lawyer was charged for obstruction of justice. 466 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:34,760 Yes. 467 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:37,960 By withholding those tapes for 17 months. 468 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,240 Mm-hmm, exactly. 469 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:41,080 Okay, but he was acquitted. 470 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:42,080 Okay. 471 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,960 If there was a lawyer-client confidentiality, then I suppose that he probably had every 472 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,720 right to withhold those tapes. 473 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:51,800 Right. 474 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,280 Or did he? 475 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,480 You always make me think outside the box. 476 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,040 I mean, just a thought process. 477 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,380 I don't know. 478 00:32:00,380 --> 00:32:02,920 My brain works in just the facts. 479 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,600 Like seriously, if you're talking about situations here, my brain goes along the lines of give 480 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:09,600 me the facts. 481 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:10,840 I should have been a lawyer. 482 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:11,840 I don't know. 483 00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:13,880 I've tried a dozen things in my life. 484 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:15,080 Lawyer was not one of them. 485 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,080 What is your favorite that you have done? 486 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,080 What's my favorite what? 487 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:20,080 Job. 488 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,480 Oh, out of everything that I've done? 489 00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:22,480 Mm-hmm. 490 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,320 I'm going to say the one I'm in now. 491 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:28,440 I'm trying to keep a low profile in my circle of professionalism. 492 00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,800 Yeah, definitely what I'm doing now. 493 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,640 I think it's definitely something that I was called to do. 494 00:32:35,640 --> 00:32:36,640 Good. 495 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:42,640 On May 18th, 1993, Carla was arraigned on two counts of manslaughter. 496 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:49,080 While in prison, she studied through correspondence courses at the nearby Queens University and 497 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,640 eventually graduated with a bachelor's degree in psychology of all things. 498 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:54,640 Huh. 499 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:56,440 I wonder what she's going to do with that. 500 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:57,440 Yeah. 501 00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:00,720 She was released from prison under strict instructions. 502 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:06,400 For example, she was ordered to report to authorities her home address, work address, 503 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,440 and anyone residing at the same residence. 504 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:15,640 Plus, she was restricted from ever contacting Paul Bernardo nor any of the family members 505 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:22,080 of her victims, and she was forbidden to ever be in the company of anyone under the age 506 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:23,080 of 16. 507 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,880 Well, what if she eventually had children? 508 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,160 Would that be an exception? 509 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:28,640 Does she have children today? 510 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:29,640 She does. 511 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,600 I'll tell you about that in a minute, but that is a very good point. 512 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,760 If she's ever forbidden to be in the company of anyone under 16, you would think she wouldn't 513 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:40,920 be allowed to have children, but then that's going against the constitution too, isn't 514 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:41,920 it? 515 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:42,920 Sure. 516 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:43,920 Yeah, that's human rights right there. 517 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:48,600 So she was required to continue therapy and counseling, and she was required to provide 518 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:50,920 a DNA sample to police. 519 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:56,000 On July 4th, 2005, Carla was released from prison. 520 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,240 Following her release, she settled in Quebec. 521 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:03,420 Carla eventually granted her first interview to Radio Canada Television, speaking entirely 522 00:34:03,420 --> 00:34:04,800 in French. 523 00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,220 During this interview, Carla mentioned that she had found the people in Quebec were much 524 00:34:09,220 --> 00:34:13,720 more accepting of her past over people living in Ontario. 525 00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:19,960 Carla eventually married Terry Bordelais, who happened to be the brother of her lawyer. 526 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:26,380 She briefly lived in the Antilles, Guadalupe, but by 2014, she returned to Quebec. 527 00:34:26,380 --> 00:34:29,880 She is still married and the couple have three children. 528 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,720 And there you have it, the Ken and Barbie murders. 529 00:34:32,720 --> 00:34:34,960 Oh, there you go. 530 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,240 Look at her having a family life. 531 00:34:37,240 --> 00:34:39,000 That's a beautiful ending. 532 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,000 Deb, any more thoughts on this case? 533 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,000 Sure. 534 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:47,280 There's one thing to mention that occurred to me while you were talking about this case, 535 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:54,220 and I'm sure I've heard this on another podcast or documentary somewhere, but did you know 536 00:34:54,220 --> 00:34:58,140 at some point in time, Carla was a substitute teacher? 537 00:34:58,140 --> 00:35:00,640 If I had, that's something I forgot about. 538 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,400 I knew she was involved with a school doing volunteer work. 539 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,260 Oh, maybe it was a volunteer. 540 00:35:05,260 --> 00:35:11,600 So if she was forbidden to be around children under the age of 16, what was it? 541 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:17,840 If she was forbidden to stay away from children under the age of 16, I don't think she was 542 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,240 taking her restrictions very seriously. 543 00:35:20,240 --> 00:35:26,920 I do recall that there was community outcry when people found out who she was and she 544 00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,840 was not in that school system for long. 545 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:30,840 So exactly. 546 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,360 Yes, you were, you're very right. 547 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,360 Yeah. 548 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,600 So I think once those parents found out who she was, all heck broke loose. 549 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:45,200 And so I'm sure that's probably when she ended up in the Antilles or Guadalupe for a little 550 00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:48,560 while to get some downtime, do you think? 551 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,280 So Deb, do you have a teachable moment for us today? 552 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:53,280 Teachable moment. 553 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,880 Well, our legal systems are in place for a reason. 554 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:04,280 And I think that both you and I can agree, Beth, that Paul Bernardo is a psychopath and 555 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:11,520 definitely needs to to remain behind bars while Carla Hamoka was also given her due 556 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,920 justice, Beth, according to the Canadian laws. 557 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,560 And she did reach a plea deal in the penal system. 558 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,960 So that was dealt with accordingly, don't you think? 559 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,960 Yes. 560 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:27,640 As horrible as this sounds, Carla did pay her debt to society under the eyes of the 561 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:28,640 law. 562 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,680 So in my opinion, it's really not our place to judge. 563 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:38,120 It is our responsibility, though, is to accept that she is now living as a free citizen. 564 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:44,320 So due diligence, I do believe that she has paid her debts to society and hopefully she 565 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,920 is remorseful and regretful and what she did every day of her life. 566 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,160 I really don't want to know what she's up to these days. 567 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:58,520 But I will say that teachable moment at some point, it is our responsibility to show grace. 568 00:36:58,520 --> 00:36:59,520 What do you think about that? 569 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:04,000 Well said, I do have a difficult time with that. 570 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,880 But what you said is true. 571 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,640 She did do her time of 12 years. 572 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,640 But giving grace for me personally, I have a hard time with that. 573 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:14,800 And I can understand that. 574 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:19,000 I don't want our listeners to be angry with what I'm saying, but you just have to kind 575 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:25,280 of keep that in alignment with she did serve her time that she was given. 576 00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:32,680 So in all fairness, she's out in society now and I'm hoping that she's living her life 577 00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,280 in the straight and narrow. 578 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,600 But really, it's not my place to judge her at this point. 579 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:38,600 Right. 580 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,600 Well said. 581 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:40,600 Okay. 582 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,480 Well, gosh, Beth, you're such a good storyteller. 583 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:44,600 Thanks for sharing that. 584 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:48,880 I know it was hard on you because you had mentioned you did not want to do this case. 585 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:53,200 But yeah, in all actuality, I do believe this needed to be told. 586 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,420 So thanks for listening to our episodes of Dying to be Found. 587 00:37:58,420 --> 00:38:02,920 We would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. 588 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:09,240 Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Pinterest at Dying the number 589 00:38:09,240 --> 00:38:11,420 two the letter B found. 590 00:38:11,420 --> 00:38:16,400 And if you like our episodes, please rate, share and consider buying us a coffee. 591 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:22,480 Be sure to leave a comment at buy me a coffee.com slash dying to be found spelled just the way 592 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,200 you see it in our logo. 593 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:28,880 If you have any ideas for a storyline that you would like for us to cover, please email 594 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:35,520 us at dying the number two the letter B found at gmail.com and be sure to visit our website 595 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:37,640 at dying to be found.com. 596 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:40,960 Thanks everyone and we will talk to you all next Thursday. 597 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,960 And that's a wrap. 598 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:53,080 Bye.