1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:06,960
somebody behind you. Good god you scared me! We're talking true crime honey. You can't sleep

2
00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:15,600
up on me like that. I'm going to the car wash to wash the oil off my baby. Okay all right.

3
00:00:16,160 --> 00:00:21,520
Hi everyone this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started I just wanted to say that

4
00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:28,000
episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.

5
00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:33,680
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast.

6
00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:44,000
Listener discretion is strongly advised. Well hi everyone this is Deb and I'm Beth and we want to

7
00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:50,480
welcome you to episode number 20 of Dying to be Found. Wow that went quick. Didn't it though?

8
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:57,840
Let me tell you since we're on that topic guess what? What? Do you remember how I told

9
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:03,120
you in the past that I'm really weird with numbers? Like I'm not good at math but I just

10
00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:13,040
count weird things? Yes. Well statistically I found out that the average podcast lasts 19 episodes.

11
00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:18,880
That's all? That's all and we are in episode 20 so we have bypassed the statistics Beth.

12
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:25,600
Woo woo makes me happy. Yeah and the way we're going I think we're really getting our groove.

13
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:31,840
I think we got the sound down. Now I will say this when I'm editing I notice that there's some

14
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:37,920
background noise because we're talking so I'm not really listening to that. If anybody hears any

15
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:44,320
jingling or clicking or barking that would be Dennis telling me that he wants attention. So

16
00:01:44,320 --> 00:01:49,280
yeah I've got to get a little bit better about the background noise but I think so far we're

17
00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:56,720
getting our groove. Yes get the groove on. Okay so we are glad that you are here today and is there

18
00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:02,880
anything else you want to talk about Beth? No but I'm curious what's the latest new country? Belgium.

19
00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:10,000
Yeah we need to say hi to Belgium. They're one of our top three listeners. Wow well welcome Belgium.

20
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:16,160
We appreciate every one of our listeners but welcome Belgium. Okay so anything else before

21
00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:24,960
we get started? No. Beth you always find the best high profile cases so intriguing and I am really

22
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:30,000
excited today. I know you're not going to disappoint us. I'm going to let you take it from here. Yeah

23
00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:36,480
so Beth's going to take this one and I hope that you all enjoy this as much as I'm going to. Okay

24
00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:44,080
thanks Deb. I've been intrigued by the Lindbergh baby kidnapping for years. In my early 20s I read

25
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:50,400
a book on it and it always seems like I'm saying I read a book on it at some point. I really enjoy

26
00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:58,000
mystery. It doesn't have to be all about gore but it's the mystery, the intrigue because it gets me

27
00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:04,560
thinking and I hope this gets you thinking as well. It's not as straightforward as one would think

28
00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:10,640
but we'll find that out later on. I will say I do remember hearing about this case while I was growing

29
00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:17,520
up but I really over time have forgotten so I can't wait for you to continue. Thank you. Charles

30
00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:25,200
Augustus Lindbergh was born in Detroit Michigan on February 4th 1902. He was an American aviator,

31
00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:33,200
military officer, author, inventor and activist. Well Charles Lindbergh was famous for the first

32
00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:41,600
non-stop flight overseas from New York City to Paris on May 20, 21, 1927. Flying the Spirit of

33
00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:52,480
St. Louis this trip was 33 and one half hours, 3,600 miles or 5,800 kilometers and he did this all by

34
00:03:52,480 --> 00:03:59,040
himself. This flight pattern was made before but Lindbergh became famous because he did this trip

35
00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:05,440
solo. Any thoughts there Deb? Do you have a bird? It's outside my windows are closed. Oh I know I

36
00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:13,440
love it. Okay so yeah again I haven't heard this in so long that I forgot that he was the one that

37
00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:20,880
did that solo flight and so what back in 1927? I remember hearing the Spirit of St. Louis but

38
00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:28,400
they didn't have passenger planes back then did they? No there was a flight that made it ahead of

39
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:35,600
Lindbergh but there were two people in the airplane. He was a big sensation because he did it solo

40
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,520
and that would be pretty hard for all those miles like how would he not sleep for 33 and a half hours?

41
00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:47,840
I never thought of that. My first thought was how did he not run out of gas? And that's something

42
00:04:47,840 --> 00:04:54,880
I never thought of. Very good point. Yeah okay. Well Charles Lindbergh was married to Ann Spencer

43
00:04:54,880 --> 00:05:02,480
Morrow who was born on June 2nd 1906. She was an American writer and aviator. The two got married

44
00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:11,520
1929 and in 1930 Ann became the first woman to receive a U.S. glider pilot license. Go Ann!

45
00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:18,320
Absolutely. Together they had six children. Charles Augustus Lindbergh Jr. being the first

46
00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:25,280
born. Charles Augustus was born to Charles Lindbergh and Ann Spencer on June 30th 1932

47
00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:31,360
in Inglewood New Jersey. For the remainder of this episode I will refer to the two parties

48
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:39,600
as Lindbergh and Charles Jr. At 9 p.m on March 1st 1932 20-month-old Charles Jr. was snatched from

49
00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:45,840
his crib in the nursery on the second floor in a Lindbergh's home in East Amwell near Hopewell,

50
00:05:45,840 --> 00:05:51,520
New Jersey. His disappearance was noticed at 10 p.m by the children's nurse named Betty Gow.

51
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,800
A ransom note was discovered on a windowsill during the search for Charles Jr. The note

52
00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:07,040
asked for $50,000 which is an equivalent to $1,055,142 in today's currency. It's a lot of

53
00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:16,160
money Deb. That is a lot of money and I wonder if they did that because of Lindbergh's notoriety.

54
00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:21,760
That's what I'm thinking too. A call was made to the Hopewell police and the report phoned into

55
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,120
the New Jersey State Police who would become the investigators into this kidnapping. During their

56
00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:32,240
search mud was found on the nursery floor and two sections of a ladder had been used to reach the

57
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:38,720
nursery. There was no blood stains or fingerprints in or around the nursery. Household and estate

58
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:43,680
employees were questioned and investigated and widespread appeals were made to the public in

59
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:50,240
hopes to learn more about the kidnapping. A second ransom note was mailed to Lindbergh on March 6th

60
00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:57,600
1932 postmark Brooklyn, New York. This time the increased demand was for $70,000 or in today's

61
00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:09,200
money $1,477,199 on the dot. Can I ask a question? Yes. Do you know how they responded to the first

62
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:16,320
ransom note? Did they pay it because all of a sudden a second ransom note was sent? How did

63
00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:23,120
they respond to the first one? No, you're going to find this intriguing. There were a total I think

64
00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:31,040
of nine ransom notes. Wow, really? Yeah. So they were just coming out willy-nilly. Oh, okay.

65
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:38,640
Interesting. Keep going. Yeah. A third ransom note came in that an intermediary appointed by the

66
00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:45,200
Lindberghs would not be accepted. I know what an intermediary is because I talk about intermediaries,

67
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:51,760
which to me is a middleman. Is that what you're saying? Exactly. Okay. So that means that whoever's

68
00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:58,320
writing that ransom notes is not wanting to talk directly to Charles Lindbergh. They're looking for

69
00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:05,040
a middleman to be the communicator or like the negotiator? Exactly. Gotcha. That same day,

70
00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:11,440
Dr. John F. Condon, a retired school principal published in the Bronx Home News and offered to

71
00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:19,200
act as a go-between and to pay an additional $1,000 ransom. The following day, a fourth ransom note was

72
00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:25,120
received by Dr. Condon, which indicated he would be an acceptable go-between. This was approved by

73
00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:34,640
Lindbergh and on March 10th, 1932, Dr. Condon received $70,000 in cash as ransom and immediately

74
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:41,680
started negotiations for payment throughout the newspaper columns using the code name Jafsy.

75
00:08:41,680 --> 00:08:50,160
That's J-A-F-S-I-E. What does that mean? That's confusing to me. It's very confusing to me too

76
00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:58,400
because it was in reports, but it never told me what it stood for. So Dr. Condon is the one that

77
00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:04,720
is the intermediary. Am I understanding that correctly? Yes. And so he's the one that's

78
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:11,760
receiving the ransom money to give whoever's demanding the ransom? Yes. Okay. So they're just

79
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:17,760
willfully handing him over money with no questions asked. Yes, exactly. Okay. I might be getting a

80
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:22,960
little ahead of myself here, but that sounds a little fishy. I totally agree only because of

81
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:29,600
everything that I've read. I wouldn't have thought it being so fishy in the beginning, but it certainly

82
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:36,800
does as time goes on in this story. After receiving an anonymous telephone call on March 12th, Dr.

83
00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:42,160
Condon received a fifth ransom note in the newspaper. The ransom note was delivered by a

84
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:49,600
taxi cab driver named Joseph Perron who received it from an unidentified man. The message stated

85
00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:55,600
that the note would be found under a stone by a vacant stand. 100 feet from an outlying subway

86
00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:01,760
station. This sixth note was found by Dr. Condon. Following instructions from the note, the doctor

87
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:09,520
met an unidentified man who called himself John. Can I ask a question? Yeah. Is all of this hearsay,

88
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:16,720
is Dr. Condon just saying that he met with an unidentified man or did somebody witness this?

89
00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:23,200
There was no witnesses, but he did meet with him. Okay. I'm sorry. I again, I'm probably getting

90
00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:29,120
ahead of myself here. Dr. Condon sounds a little fishy to me, but keep going because I'm intrigued.

91
00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:34,240
Very interesting thought. And you'll find out towards the end why what you're saying is an

92
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:40,000
interesting thought. Okay. The meeting took place at the Woodlawn Cemetery. They discussed payment

93
00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:46,320
of the ransom money. Over the next few days, Dr. Condon repeated his advertisements urging further

94
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:53,440
contact and stating his willingness to pay the ransom. On March 16th, 15 days after the kidnapping,

95
00:10:53,440 --> 00:11:00,160
a seventh ransom note was received by Dr. Condon. On March 21st, an eighth ransom note was received

96
00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:05,920
by the doctor, insisting on complete compliance and advising that the kidnapping had been planned for

97
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:14,640
a year. So as an intermediary, whoever is communicating with Dr. Condon is just sending

98
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:21,520
all this communication directly to him, nobody else. Yes. I'm starting to see your, your views

99
00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:28,880
on this. Okay. I can't get off of this. I know. On March 29th, Betty Gao, the baby's nurse found

100
00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:34,560
Charles Jr.'s thumb guard worn at the time of the kidnapping near the entrance to the estate.

101
00:11:34,560 --> 00:11:39,440
What is a thumb guard? I think it's something to put over your thumb so you don't suck your thumb

102
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:44,800
anymore. So it's different from a pacifier? Yes. Maybe they didn't have pacifiers back then. I

103
00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,920
don't know. I could have probably used a thumb guard myself. Otherwise I might not have needed

104
00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:56,320
braces. You know, the funny thing is when I, when I wrote this out, I thought of you. Really? Because

105
00:11:56,320 --> 00:12:05,520
I remembered you sucked your thumb for a very long time. I sure did. So Deb, can you believe there

106
00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:11,600
were three more ransom notes to come? I can't. That's a lot of ransom notes. It sounds like they

107
00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:19,680
were complying the entire time, but it also sounded like they were kept handing over a large sum of

108
00:12:19,680 --> 00:12:26,880
money every time with no results. I don't understand why at some point in time the baby wasn't returned.

109
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:32,800
Well, this is why. There were three more ransom notes, as I said, before Charles Jr.'s body was

110
00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:40,880
accidentally discovered on May 12th, 1932. The body was partly buried and badly decomposed about

111
00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:47,760
four and a half miles or 7.24 kilometers from the Lindbergh home. That was pretty close, eh Deb?

112
00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:54,800
Yeah, very close. Tell me again the timeline of when he was kidnapped. How long was that?

113
00:12:54,800 --> 00:13:02,080
12 days. 12 days. Okay. The discovery was made by William Allen, an assistant on a truck driven by

114
00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:09,440
Orville Wilson. The baby's head was crushed, there was a hole in the skull, and some of the

115
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:21,280
body parts were missing. Oh my gosh! That's terrible. It is. It's pretty brutal. After all this.

116
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:29,120
The Corners report showed that Charles Jr. was likely killed within hours of the kidnapping

117
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:36,320
because of the injuries he received. So whoever's doing this was just obviously leading people on

118
00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:43,200
with the ransom notes at this point. Yes. With no intention of returning him. Exactly. That's

119
00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:52,720
disgusting. It is. So now I'm going to get into the investigation. On March 2nd, 1932, J. Edgar Hoover,

120
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:58,080
the attorney general and FBI director, got in contact with the Trenton, New Jersey police

121
00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:04,240
department. He told the New Jersey police that they could contact the FBI for any resources

122
00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:11,360
and would provide any assistance if needed. The FBI did not have federal jurisdiction until

123
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:18,880
May 13th, 1932, when the president declared that the FBI was at the disposal of the New Jersey

124
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:24,240
police department and that the FBI should coordinate and conduct the investigation.

125
00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:31,440
The New Jersey state police offered $25,000 in reward for anyone who could provide information

126
00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:39,760
pertaining to the case. They are still throwing a lot of money out there for the time. So this is

127
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:46,560
after they found Charles Jr. Yes. I think this is because it's such a high profile case because of

128
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:54,880
who his father was. So true. I can't see this being done if it was just anybody. There's a lot of

129
00:14:54,880 --> 00:15:03,200
information I had on Charles Lindberg. He was involved in so much and to keep this to one episode,

130
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,320
I had to just focus more on the kidnapping. But if you're interested in Charles Lindberg,

131
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:14,000
certainly look him up. He's very intriguing. Yeah. I think I'm going to dig a little bit on that.

132
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:21,280
On April 5th, 1933, President Franklin D. Roosevelt issued an executive order that stated

133
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:28,320
that all gold certificates used to pay Charles Jr.'s ransom that were found in circulation

134
00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:36,160
must be exchanged for federal reserve notes by May 1st, 1933. President Roosevelt proclaimed

135
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:40,800
this for a couple of reasons. One, the United States was still in the middle of the Great

136
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:46,720
Depression and he felt the exchange would prevent the hoarding of gold. And two, it would provide

137
00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,080
investigators a better way to track for the ransom money that may have continued to circulate.

138
00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,000
That's interesting that the president got involved with this. It's kind of unusual.

139
00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:06,800
But I guess my question is, were the authorities trying to track where the person was spending the

140
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:14,400
money? Exactly. Okay. On January 17th, 1934, a letter was circulated by the New York City

141
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:20,640
Bureau Office to all banks and their branches in New York stating that there was an extremely

142
00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:25,680
close watch for the ransom certificates that I talked about when President Johnson made his

143
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:33,120
proclamation. The letter with all the numbers on the $40,000 ransom money was circulated to banks,

144
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:40,160
clearing houses, grocery stores, insurance companies, gas stations, airports, department

145
00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:48,240
stores, post office, and telegram companies. That is a lot of legwork right there. It is.

146
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:54,000
Now let's talk about the five theories that authorities looked into. Okay. There's lots of

147
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,840
theories. Okay. Well, I mean, there's nine ransom notes. Why not have five theories?

148
00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:06,640
Very true. So theory one was on household staff members. Signs that it could be an inside job were

149
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:13,200
strong. It's as if the kidnapper knew where to go. The footprints only went to the window of the

150
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:20,800
nursery. They had a dog and the dog didn't bark. Well, that's odd. Because I have a dog and he

151
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:27,440
barks all the time. He interferes with our recording almost every week. The baby did not cry.

152
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,960
The person was familiar with the household knowing which window to go to. The odd thing

153
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:40,160
were the blankets from the crib were neatly folded and placed on a nearby shelf. What? Yeah. What

154
00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:47,520
kidnapper worries about folding? Yeah. That makes no bloody sense whatsoever about that blanket.

155
00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:55,440
That's crazy. No, not at all. Theory two is a Scandinavian gang. Dr. Condon says he needs to

156
00:17:55,440 --> 00:18:02,480
meet with a man who calls himself John, who the police and media dub him Cemetery John. Cemetery

157
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:07,760
John tells Condon he's one of a group of sailors on a boat. He says the baby is safe and they need

158
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:13,760
to make an exchange for the ransom money. Based on Condon's description, a sketch was drawn.

159
00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:19,360
Condon asked for proof that they had the baby. Condon received that proof, which was a gray

160
00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:26,240
sleeping suit that Charles Jr. was sleeping in the night he was taken. On April 2nd, 1932,

161
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,520
a meeting with John Condon and a stranger met in the cemetery and made the exchange of money.

162
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:38,080
And a letter was provided to Dr. Condon expressing the whereabouts of Charles Jr. The letter says

163
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:43,680
that there are two ladies on a boat caring for the baby. Directions to find the boat were enclosed

164
00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,880
and police raced off to Martha's Vineyard to find his boat. After an extensive search,

165
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:56,080
the boat was never found. So at this point in time, it's a wild goose chase. Exactly. And again,

166
00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:02,880
my suspicions are saying that Dr. Condon is sending people in the wrong direction.

167
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:09,760
But keep going because I might be wrong. No, you might not be. On theory three, Violet Sharp,

168
00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:16,480
a waitress in Anne Lindbergh's mother's house, had been under investigation. Distraught Violet

169
00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:22,080
Sharp committed suicide by swallowing poison when she was about to be questioned again.

170
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:29,680
Oh my gosh. Sadly, upon further investigation, her movement around the night of the kidnapping

171
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:34,240
showed that she had no connection with the abduction. So she did kill herself when she

172
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:42,560
didn't need to. Oh, that is a shame. I'm sad to hear that. Her stories kept changing. She says she

173
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:49,760
was at a movie. She was numerous places. So I think this poor lady just was so flustered that

174
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:55,120
she totally forgot where she was. And it was discovered after her death that she was indeed

175
00:19:55,120 --> 00:20:02,800
at a movie theater. Oh my gosh. Now is theory four going to surprise everybody? Do we know what

176
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:09,840
theory four might be? No, I'm at a loss here. There's a lot going on in my head right now.

177
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:16,800
I'm trying to piece it all together. Well, theory four is Charles Lindbergh himself. The father.

178
00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:26,480
The dad. What? No. Yes. That's what I first said, but then there's just too many things pointing to

179
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:33,440
him. Oh my gosh. Since family members are the first to suspect, this theory came up. But given

180
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:39,680
Lindbergh's notoriety, no one wanted to question him. And we've seen that because the president

181
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:47,840
got involved and it's such a high profile case, but really did they investigate? Yeah, absolutely.

182
00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:54,880
Huh? The only statement ever given is a one page account where he can't attest to his whereabouts

183
00:20:54,880 --> 00:21:00,640
on the night of the kidnapping. Now come on. What? Really? Wait, it's a one page statement that he

184
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:05,760
wrote out to the police? Okay. That's fishy. Very fishy. How can you not know where you were when

185
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:13,840
your child was kidnapped? Thank you. That would be burned into my memory for the end of time. That's

186
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:21,280
crazy. And when the authorities wanted to write down all the numbers on the bank notes, Lindbergh

187
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:26,880
strongly objected. I don't even know what that means. What does that mean? They wanted to write

188
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:34,720
down all the numbers so that they can find out track. Yes. Track. Track the numbers on the bank

189
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,760
notes. So that they, okay. So if they were in circulation, they would be able to track them

190
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:46,000
easier. Why would he even object to that? He, you know, as a parent, okay, I'm going to say this,

191
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:52,560
I can be completely off target here. There's a difference between a mother and a father.

192
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:59,920
I understand that because in my opinion, women are very fierce when it comes to being a mother.

193
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:06,000
Dad's fathers are a little bit more, they would be protective. They would be the breadwinner,

194
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:11,600
but I'm sorry, in this instance, I don't think there's a difference between a mother and a father.

195
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:19,120
Lindbergh should be doing everything possible to cooperate with the police. I hear you there. I'm,

196
00:22:19,120 --> 00:22:26,000
I'm right on board. Okay, I'm just saying that. That theory doesn't make any sense. No. Lindbergh

197
00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:32,320
was known to be a jokester as well. And the week before the disappearance of Charles Jr., Lindbergh

198
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:38,960
hid the baby in the closet a week prior, allowing Betty and Ann to get hysterical thinking the baby

199
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:49,120
was kidnapped. And the odd thing is Lindbergh thought this was very funny. What? That is bizarre.

200
00:22:49,120 --> 00:22:58,800
That to me sounds like Lindbergh is setting up the situation, like completely just setting the whole

201
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:05,840
thing up right there. Okay. Now, so I suppose this theory here is really throwing me for a loop,

202
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:12,880
but after you said that, I feel like he's just setting the whole thing up. That's too coincidental

203
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:18,560
for him to play such a joke. That's, that's not even funny. No. And then ironically, what a week

204
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:25,040
later, the baby is kidnapped for sure. That's crazy. Wow. Well, getting back to the kidnapping,

205
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:31,360
what if this was a second prank by Lindbergh? Maybe the baby was dropped from the top of a ladder and

206
00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:36,800
the baby died of a skull fracture. Why would the baby be dropped from a ladder? If you look at

207
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:44,320
photos, it's extremely high. It's not like one of our houses nowadays where it would be from a second

208
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:51,040
story. This was an old house and it was up very high and it was happened to be snowing that night.

209
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:57,120
So he could have lost footing. Okay. So it sounds like what you're saying right now sounds like he

210
00:23:57,120 --> 00:24:05,200
could be in the process of kidnapping his own child, like this theory suggests, and there was

211
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:12,720
an accident. So he had to scramble from there. Exactly. Gotcha. Okay. Another suspicious fact

212
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:18,880
is that Lindbergh ordered an immediate cremation of Charles Lindbergh Jr. I'm just going to say

213
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:25,360
from the cases that we've heard or the true crime cases that I listened to a lot of the time,

214
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:31,600
the suspicion falls on these people who do want immediate cremations. And it turns out to be

215
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:39,120
that person involved for whatever reason. Exactly. That's for sure. Interesting. So was it an accident?

216
00:24:39,120 --> 00:24:45,520
Some people thought that Lindbergh killed the child intentionally based on eugenics. Have you

217
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,360
heard about that Deb? I'd have to go look it up, but I mean, I guess the answer is no. I don't know

218
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:58,080
for sure. Well, I had to go look it up too. So the textbook explanation of the word eugenics

219
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:06,560
is a scientifically erroneous and immoral theory of racial improvement, quote, and quote, planned

220
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:13,120
breeding, unquote. Okay. I'm going to say I don't know what eugenics is. In other words, scientists

221
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:19,600
will deem certain genetic traits superior and any deformities are considered a weakness. It's a

222
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:25,120
concept that the Nazi party would use to justify in the genocide against the Jewish people.

223
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:31,520
Okay. I have no, no, I have no words for that. That's crazy. Okay. Keep going. Well, you'll gasp

224
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:39,760
at this one. Lindbergh was drawn to aspects of Nazism. What? He gave speeches. He published

225
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:46,480
papers with racist ideas. Could this controversial political belief have led to the death of Charles

226
00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:55,360
Jr.? Oh, don't tell me that. No, it just, it does, this does keep getting worse. And to top it all

227
00:25:55,360 --> 00:26:01,040
off, Charles Jr. was born with some minor deformities such as rickets where his legs were bowed. He

228
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:06,080
didn't have any strength in his lower body and seemed to be a little slow on development in that

229
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:13,840
area. Oh, isn't that a calcium deficiency? You know, I don't know exactly what it is. I have seen it,

230
00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:22,240
but I don't know what causes it. Oh goodness. Poor little Charles Jr. I know. And can you believe

231
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:27,200
authorities stopped looking at the family and the case went cold? Well, there's that whole profile

232
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:32,320
when you have money and you're high profile like that. Unfortunately that that's common.

233
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,960
Well, in the summer of 1934, detectives got the break that they were looking for after spending

234
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:45,520
two years investigating and questioning close to 1000 people. Luck was on their side. The money

235
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:52,800
that had certificate numbers found were in a distinctive path along New York City. $15,100

236
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:59,040
worth of ransom bills were recovered, but it's one in particular that cracks the case open.

237
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:06,000
September 18th, 1934, one of the notes pops up at a bank. This note has something different. It has

238
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:13,920
a number written on the right hand bottom. 4U 1341NY. And Deb, do you know, have any idea what

239
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:20,480
that might be? Nope, because I'm still marveling at that combination of letters that you had told

240
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:29,440
me earlier, the J-A-F-S-I-E. Oh yes. Nope, that makes no sense to me. No, and it didn't to me,

241
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:34,960
but it turns out it was a license plate number and the bill was traced to a local gas station

242
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:40,240
and the station attendant, Walter Lyle, said that the gold certificate caught his attention

243
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:46,880
and it felt suspicious to him, which surprises me that after two years he'd still think of

244
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,080
something as being suspicious on a gold note. Yeah. Can I talk about that for just a moment?

245
00:27:52,080 --> 00:28:00,160
Yeah. Okay. So I work with money every day and I have trained the people that I work with to look

246
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,320
for certain things because I mean, American money itself, there's a certain texture that you feel

247
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:16,240
when you are exchanging currency. Well, we had a $20 counterfeit bill come through and nobody caught

248
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:22,320
it, but the bank caught it when we went to go make a deposit. And there's a pen that you can use.

249
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,680
Well, again, I've trained everybody that I work with to use the pen. If something doesn't look

250
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:33,680
right or feel right, you can certainly tell because we've had $10 bills run through. We've had $20

251
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:40,080
bills run through as counterfeit. I did find out pretty shortly after the second bill came through.

252
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:47,440
I literally had people come and tell me that they knew what was going on. I had an employee

253
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:54,240
knowingly taking those counterfeit bills for their friend. Well, in my city, there's often signs that

254
00:28:54,240 --> 00:29:00,640
people will not even accept a denomination of a $50 bill anymore. Wow. It doesn't just happen with

255
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:08,480
50s, Beth. It happens with 10s and 20s. Yeah. So interesting fact. Yeah. The bill was traced to a

256
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:13,680
local gas station and the station attendant, Walter Lyle, said that the gold certificate

257
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,960
caught his attention and it felt suspicious to him. He thought that the customer was a counterfeiter

258
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,160
and wrote down the license plate right there on the spot. Police run the plate and get a name,

259
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:32,560
it is Bruno Hotman. Police now know the true identity of Cemetery John. Oh, okay. So I just

260
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:40,320
want to be clear. The gas station attendant wrote down the license plate on the certificate? Yes.

261
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:46,560
Okay. So, because it was the only thing handy. Exactly. And back then, the men must have had

262
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:53,840
neat printing because it is so clear on the bill. When I looked at it, it didn't look like gas

263
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,760
attendant wrote it. It looks like a lady. Oh, okay. It was just an interesting little piece that I

264
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:04,880
thought. And when he was running, he was rushing to write it down, that it was so neat and tidy.

265
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:12,000
And he was in a rush too. So that's pretty cool. And he had good instinct. Yes, he did. So now we're

266
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:19,040
onto theory five, the lone carpenter. Hotman is a German war immigrant illegally living in the US.

267
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:25,200
He was charged with multiple burglaries in Germany, but he escaped by stowing away on an ocean liner.

268
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:31,120
He lived in the Bronx with his wife and child and worked as a carpenter. As soon as police connected

269
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,640
him with the money, they put Hotman under total surveillance, hoping he would slip up and incriminate

270
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,800
himself. At some point, Hotman knew he was being followed. He jumped into his car and tried to make

271
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:51,680
a break for it. A police chase ensued. The heat is on. The heat is on. Hey, that is a great song.

272
00:30:51,680 --> 00:31:00,560
Yeah, it is. And a police chase ensued and Hotman was finally pinned in the Bronx. He was arrested

273
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:06,320
and authorities began a search of his car and his house. They searched everything without any

274
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:12,640
interest until they looked out to the edge of the property. There in a stack of old gas cans,

275
00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:22,960
police finally found $14,600 in gold certificates and they found cans of ransom money in the garage.

276
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:30,640
Now, from what it looked like in one of the photos that I saw, the garage had naturally at that time

277
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:37,840
dirt floors. So these cans were actually buried in the dirt floors. Wow. They raced to build a

278
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:43,760
case against him. Detectives checked the serial numbers on each note and indeed were the certificates

279
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:49,120
given as part of the ransom. Now, Deb, do you remember me talking about a ladder at the nursery

280
00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:55,840
window? I do remember because we were talking about was it an accident or not? Well, in the

281
00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:01,920
Hotman's attic, which surprises me that they would check an attic, found a handmade telescopic

282
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:08,160
ladder designed to collapse on itself, easily being the height to reach the nursery window.

283
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:14,480
During their attic search, the authorities found a section of floorboards that had been cut and they

284
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:20,480
had a team of experts examining the wood floorboard and forensically compared it to the wood on the

285
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:26,080
ladder. Very interesting. The results showed the grain of wood matched up with the ladder

286
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:32,160
and nail holes also matched the nails to construct the ladder. In their search, authorities found

287
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,800
another clue. A phone number was found written on the wall in the closet in the kitchen.

288
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:43,760
Any ideas who that might be, Deb? No, I'm perplexed. A phone number was found. Well,

289
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:52,640
it goes to your theory. Yeah? It was Dr. Condon. A handwriting analyst was hired to analyze Hotman's

290
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:59,920
handwriting from it and it was the same handwriting on the ransom notes. So he was completely, like I

291
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:08,960
said, in cahoots at the cemetery with the mysterious man. It sounds like it, but the only thing I wonder

292
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:14,960
is Dr. Condon was appointed. Now, when he was appointed, did he, is that one he thought maybe

293
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:20,480
he could get involved with getting some money? I don't know. Who appointed him? Charles Lindbergh,

294
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:26,320
senior. So maybe the three of them were in cahoots with each other. I never thought of it being in a

295
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:32,880
three-way cahoot. I was just thinking two-way, but it does make sense, doesn't it? It does, since you

296
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:39,520
told me that Lindbergh refused to write down those serial numbers and he only gave a one-page account

297
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:45,360
to his whereabouts the night of the disappearance. So there's got to be more than just two people

298
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:52,720
involved. What is Dr. Condon going to get out of this entire situation? Obviously money, but it's

299
00:33:52,720 --> 00:34:01,760
deeper than that. Yes, it is. On September 24th, 1934, Hotman was indicted for extorting the $50,000

300
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:07,280
from Charles Lindbergh. On October 8th, he was also indicted for the murder of Charles Lindbergh,

301
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:13,920
junior. The trial that was known as the crime of the century was so large that there were no hotel

302
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:21,760
rooms around for miles. News reporters and curious people flocked to Hopewell. After conviction and

303
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:29,040
two appeals, Hotman was executed by the electric chair on April 3rd, 1936. Oh wow. Any thoughts

304
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:35,200
there Deb? I mean they found him guilty, so I don't know if they found him guilty before he

305
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:42,160
was innocent. There was certainly plenty of evidence on his property to suggest that he was

306
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,920
definitely involved here, but I don't think he was the only one. No, and personally I believe this

307
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:53,760
was a crime in partnership with Hotman like you said, and he took the fall. Whether it was with

308
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,760
Condon or Lindbergh, it seems that they worked with Hotman. Oh yeah. There was a trial run maybe for

309
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:06,640
the kidnapping. There you go. Wait a minute, was that the night that Lindbergh played the practical

310
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:14,320
joke on putting baby Charles into the closet? That's a fact that just slapped me in the head.

311
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:20,480
I just, it just popped right out at me and I said this has to be a trial run. Especially with it

312
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:26,640
being so close in time. It was only two weeks later. Wow. And of course Lindbergh was a supporter

313
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:32,560
of Hitler. Oh yeah. I saw a lot of photos of him saluting in the same way Hitler and his supporters

314
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:39,200
did. That is crazy. And Lindbergh believed just like Hitler that the world should live under

315
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:46,480
eugenics, which I mentioned earlier. So that's my thoughts. Wow. That makes a lot of sense,

316
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,080
but I'm not a professional. So interesting though. That's really an interesting theory right there.

317
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:58,960
Yeah. And folks, I'd be really interested in hearing your response on this. When you see our

318
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:06,000
social media, please leave a message to give us your thoughts on this theory. Wow. There's so much

319
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:12,400
going on in my head right now. So much unanswered. I know. I know when I was growing up and I heard

320
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:18,000
about this, that everything was left unanswered, but interesting that even today there's still no

321
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:25,280
answers. No. Now when I read this book back in my twenties, there were certainly not these theories.

322
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:32,640
So I think it's interesting that the case was looked into again. Yeah, for sure. And that's

323
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:39,680
the Lindbergh baby kidnapping. So Deb, do you have a teachable moment for us today? Teachable moments?

324
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:48,320
Well, I say that in any case when people are investigating, especially if there's so many

325
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:56,240
theories, we certainly can't rule any of them out. But then again, we do need to keep an open mind.

326
00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:03,520
For instance, did Lindbergh really take part in this? It's leaning towards that. But again,

327
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:09,840
in today's world, you just, you have to keep an open mind on people's thoughts, people's ideas.

328
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:17,120
But then again, you have to use common sense. Yes, common sense for sure. So I think that's

329
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:25,280
my teachable moment. Well, it was a good one today. Okay, well, Beth, you didn't disappoint me. Holy cow.

330
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:32,480
That was an amazing story. So I'd be interested to know if they ever find any evidence. I know it's

331
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:38,240
literally at this point, we're close to a hundred years later, there probably will not be anything

332
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:45,040
new out coming from this. But thanks so much for that story. That was really excellent. I enjoyed

333
00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:51,840
that. Thank you. I really enjoyed doing this. I was very intrigued and you do a good job putting

334
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:58,240
your episodes together. And I mean, I don't think about these older cases, but you are really coming

335
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:05,280
up with some good ones. I love old cases. We'll let that be your thing then. You outshine me there.

336
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:12,000
Okay. Okay. Well, if there's nothing else, we want to thank you for listening to our episode today.

337
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:17,360
And before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.

338
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:24,720
Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at dying the number two,

339
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:30,000
the letter B found. If you like our episodes, please tell your friends and consider buying

340
00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:37,120
us a coffee at buy me a coffee.com slash dying to be found spelled just the way you see it on our

341
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:42,720
logo and feel free to leave a comment on that page so that we know what we can be doing better.

342
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:48,640
If you have an idea for a story that you would like for us to cover, please visit our website

343
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:56,080
at dying to be found.com spelled just like you see on our logo or email us at dying the number two,

344
00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:02,960
the letter B found at gmail.com. So with that, be sure to check us out every Thursday, wherever you

345
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:10,320
get your podcasts. And that's a wrap. That is a wrap. We will talk to everybody next week. Bye.