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Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started today, I just

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wanted to mention that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against

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animals and or humankind. Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences

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due to the content nature of this podcast. Listener discretion is strongly advised.

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Are we still having fun? Yeah. Okay, good. Because I know I am. All right. Well, hello

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everyone. This is Deb. And this is Beth. And we want to welcome you to this episode of

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Dying to be Found. I just wanted to kind of give a quick little update. I am somewhat

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technically savvy, but not 100%. And I wanted to be sure that our listeners know that our

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email is dying the number two, the letter B found at gmail.com because I set up an original

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email that matched our logo. But for some reason, Google is not verifying me and I don't

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know how to verify me. So if anybody knows how to verify me, please email me at dying

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to be found with that two in the middle and a B in the middle. And that's all I got to

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say. So what's going on, Beth? Well, I was going to ask you that what's going on in your

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world this week? I've got a day off today and I'm catching up on all those things that

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we don't like to do like insurance and making appointments and things like that. But it's

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relaxing. I got to sleep in a little bit. Oh, good. What time was that? No, eight, eight

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o'clock. Good. I had the day off today too. And I set my alarm for 5am so I can have a

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lot of hours in my day. I just have so much art to work on and girlfriends to visit. Oh,

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that's nice. So you went to visit girlfriends today? Yeah. And then I had one in, we were

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teaching her a technique for her scrapbooks. So we're all set. Good. I got my hair done.

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Oh, and it is so cute. I went for a little different look. I'm sure I'll put it out there

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on social media soon because I just put one of our advertisements out there today and

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it's slightly different, not too different, but definitely people are going to notice

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on tomorrow when I go back to work. Anyways, well, do you want to go ahead and get started

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or is there anything else you want to talk about? So today we're going to talk about

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H. H. Holmes, one of the first serial killers on record. I'm going to give a very detailed

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background that leads up to the events of the story because I really feel this is necessary

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to paint a picture of who H. H. Holmes is and how he was perceived in the community.

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Do you mind me asking you? I don't, I know the name. I just don't know anything about

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you said he was the first serial killer on record. Yes. So is he America? Okay. Is he

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the one that coined the term serial killer? Do you know? No, I mean, I don't think he

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would have, but is he the reason? I doubt it because this is going back so far. Okay.

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To the 1800s. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, I'm excited. Keep going. I'm sorry to interrupt you. That's

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okay. Deb and I decided that the story will be in two parts because there is a lot of

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information about H. H. Holmes that needs to be told that eventually leads up to his

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crimes. We are going to break this down to Holmes young adult life in part one so we

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can paint a clear picture of his character. Then we will go into crimes in part two. So

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please be patient, but I think you're going to enjoy this. I know I'm going to enjoy this

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because I'm intrigued already. I just, I know the name. I just don't know. I can't believe

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I gone. I've gone this long without knowing who this person is. Well, I can't believe

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I didn't neither. And this was brought up by a coworker at work and they were shocked.

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I'd never heard of this gentleman before. So I looked it up and I thought, Oh, I'm going

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to buy a book on them and I am going to read and learn. So Herman Webster Mudgett was born

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on May 16th, 1861 in Gilmanton, New Hampshire. Spoiler alert. Herman later changed his name

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to H. H. Holmes later in life. In the meantime, I referred to him as Herman Mudgett. So much

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was born to Levi Horton Mudgett and Theo date, Paige Price, who were two of the first English

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immigrants in the area. Herman was a third born child of five children and was considered

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to be a mama's boy. Oh, a mama's boy. I had one of those until, until he probably turned

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16 or 17 and then he just went on out into the world and I barely see him anymore. But

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when he comes over, we have fun. That's nice. I still have a mama's boy. I love that. Maybe

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your mama's boy can talk to my not mama's boy. During his childhood, Herman enjoyed

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designing scarecrows and motion machines. Okay. Can I stop you there? I'm sorry. I'm

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random in case you didn't know that Beth, I'm random. Okay. Have you in the, in the fall,

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have you ever driven through a town where they really dress up the town for Halloween

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or just for fall festivals coming in? Um, we had a town a couple of years ago where

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I was driving through to visit a friend and everywhere I looked, people had all these

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scarecrows. How did it tell when I left out in, uh, Nova Scotia, you had that in Nova

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Scotia. Yeah. And the town we were in and when they first moved there, it was so cool.

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They were even wearing wedding dresses and outfits. Oh yeah. That's so neat. But the

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further I drove through town, I just started thinking, wow, this is getting a little creepy

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because I was like, Oh, look at that. Look at that one wearing a wedding dress. That

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is so cool. And then wait a minute, this is getting creepy. Just a bunch of scarecrows.

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I mean, I guess I had to really, I think I went online to see what the deal was with

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the scarecrows, but it's a great concept. I think more people need to get back to doing

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that. So what is the deal with scarecrows? I don't know. It was just creepy seeing a

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bunch of them looking at you when you're driving through town. It's like one of those movies,

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you know, where people get lost. Okay. Sorry to interrupt you continue. That's okay. So

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it seems that much. It was quite resourceful from the beginning, which continued into his

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later years. His personal dream was to marry a local rich girl who could finance his medical

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school. Once he reached adulthood, he took on many jobs, such as a teacher, a physician,

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a pharmacist, a barber, and a hotel owner. Mudgett grew up with a fascination with a

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human skeletal frame and was believed to begin studying medicine because of this. He first

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studied medicine in Vermont, then eventually transferred to the university of Michigan

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medical school. He was known to work on cadavers on a daily basis during his studies. I have

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a story about cadavers. Can I tell it? Yes. Okay. So our other sister was in medical school

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years and years ago. I'm talking about when she was first going off to college university

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and I used to live close by her. So I would drive to go see her on the weekends and she

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was, oh, I don't know. She was so excited about being at medical school and she's like,

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oh gosh, let's just go take a tour of the campus. She took me here and there, which

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was quite interesting and intriguing because you would see different rooms, you know, when

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you go into a doctor's office and they have that skeleton hanging in the room, there were

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those hanging in there. And then she was like, okay, this I'm saving the best to last. Anyway,

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so we walk into this room and it is full and I mean full. It's, it was just a room full

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of cadavers and she was so excited about showing me this room that she was literally flipping

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body parts just here and there and flipping back the cavities of the stomach and just

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talking to her medical talk. I was horrified. Did you, did you have nightmares after that?

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No, but I was just like, oh my gosh. And then somewhere along the way she's like, you should

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donate your body to science. Anyways, so I've been in a room full of cadavers.

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That's, that's creepy. And here we are having a podcast on creepiness. Yeah, for sure. It

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was, it was definitely creepy, but intriguing at the same time. Okay. I'm done. So I'll

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just start back with, he was known to work on cadavers on a daily basis with the studies

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while attending anatomy lectures three times per week. However, he began to observe some

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of these bodies were being donated to science, which were of less than honorable circumstances.

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Meaning many of the people who ended up in medical school did not die of natural causes

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or came from local cemeteries. Winter classes at school were so busy that all the bodies

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were used up. This led Holmes to seeing the value of cadavers for money. Creel little

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guy, which would become one of several different money-making schemes that he would become

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involved with later in life. Mudgett ultimately learned in medical school that digging up

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cadavers could pay for his tuition. So he also earned a reputation of stealing cadavers

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from the medical laboratory and even burned, disfigured and planted bodies to look like

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they were killed in an accident. That's gross. I know. Okay. That's, that's bizarre. So he's

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like using them as Barbie dolls. Yeah. Nice. This, this is guys really creepy. So Mudgett

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married a young lady named Clara Loverling in 1878, likely to help pay for his tuition

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in medical school. I think there it is. We had mentioned earlier that his intent was

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to live off the riches of a wealthy wife. However, Holmes was known to have a violent

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temper and in 1884, Clara moved back to New Hampshire where the couple lost touch with

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each other. The couple never divorced. They just separated when Clara moved away. Once

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separated, Holmes was forced to leave his medical career to teach because he simply

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could not afford his own schooling. By 1881, Mudgett was facing substantial financial hardship

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and was doing everything he could to survive. He lost his bank. Yeah. So this is where he's

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going to move to Chicago in 1884. So I'm going to give you a background to Holmes there.

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Okay. So just as a recap though. So he basically, when he was what in his early twenties, he,

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he married just like everybody else does. And then he was still going through medical

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school. And at that time it turned out that he probably had a couple of little quirks

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and like to hang out with the corpses a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So he's moving. Yeah. Okay.

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This is an intense story. I mean, I guess I'm trying to think, I'm envisioning back

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in the 1800s when I guess when the industrial revolution is coming to town or coming into,

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you know, everyday life. So, and I'm just trying to think too with being the 1800s in

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medicine, I mean, how much did they really know in comparison to today? But it's interesting

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that they had the capacity to have those cadavers. Well, exactly. This is at the same era as

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Jack the Ripper. And there was always question if he was actually the Jack the Ripper, but

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that wouldn't be possible with him back in the 1800s, having to travel to two countries.

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It's just a fib going around that he could be Jack the Ripper. I know who Jack the Ripper

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is too, but what was he over in Europe? He was in England. Okay, gotcha. You might have

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to do Jack the Ripper too. Yeah. And do some comparison. I just I'm intrigued by the 1800s.

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I think I am too. Good. Then it's then it's a date. We'll do that. Okay. About six years

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into his separation from Clara, Herman moved to the Chicago area when he was around 25

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years old. He had a knack for business at the time and wanted to come to a bigger area

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where high rises were being constructed. It was during this period that Herman changed

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his name to Henry Howard Holmes or H. H. Holmes when he relocated to Chicago because he was

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known as a scam artist and did not want to be exposed for previous scams under his real

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name. Here he went to work for a local pharmacy. Going forward will refer to Herman as H. H.

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Holmes. Now just a year earlier, Holmes talked with a friend about buying life insurance

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and together the two decided that they would find other accomplices who would help to fake

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the death of a family of three so that they could cash in on life insurance policy. Why

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a family of three? Bigger payout and it's probably what an average family would be back

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then. Okay. The man's life would be insured for 40,000 which included his wife and daughter.

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What this meant was if the wife and daughter were murdered and husband committed suicide

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out of duress, the insurance premium will be paid out to the beneficiary. Holmes and

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his accomplice plan to split the insurance on said family members for an equivalent of

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$1 million in today's standards. Did they say that they were family members? Were they

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trying to make a connection with the insurance company saying that whoever it was that they

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were setting up for the insurance, were they saying that they were family members and putting

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themselves down as beneficiaries? They were trying to just find anybody right now and

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not necessarily, it doesn't have to be family related for Holmes, which we'll later find

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out. So his plan never came to fruition because insurance fraud was becoming very popular

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during this era and Holmes became worried that they would be caught. Shortly after Holmes

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and his partner parted ways and lost touch with one another. Does that mean he actually

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had a conscience or he was just afraid of getting caught? Getting caught. Okay. This

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man has such an ego, he thinks he's flying in the air. So once he relocated to the Chicago

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area, Holmes bought a local pharmacy from the widow of the pharmacist where he was initially

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found work. This pharmacy was located in Inglewood, Illinois, which is located about nine miles

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or 14 kilometers outside of Chicago. Some say that the death of this pharmacist was

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somewhat suspicious and that Holmes had something to do with it. Then soon after he bought the

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pharmacy, the widow went missing. Holmes claimed to the people in town that she moved to California

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after the death of her husband. I'm sorry, does it sound suspicious that she would move

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away if in that era? In that era, it probably was today, not so much, but back then, you

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know, there were close knit families and everybody knew everybody's business. True. And they're

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probably not as spread out as we are today. Exactly. On January 28th, 1886, Holmes married

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Myrda Belknap, despite the fact that he was still married to Clara from his first marriage.

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Myrda described Holmes as incredibly loving toward her and their baby Lucy. He always

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had to have a pet because he loved animals. Two weeks after marrying Myrda, Holmes petitioned

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the courts to divorce Clara. He ended up letting the petition lapse and it was dismissed for

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failure to prosecute. I don't understand why he would let it lapse. I don't neither. Well,

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he was already married. Maybe that's why, because he was married first. And then if

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the divorce went through, he would probably, I don't know, maybe he would have been exposed

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for already being married to Myrda. Yeah, that sounds rational. Holmes quickly came

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with an elaborate plan to fake his own death so that his marriage to Clara could be dissolved.

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Always scheming, isn't he? However, Holmes later found that following through with the

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scheme would prove to be difficult. He initially intended to use one of the cadavers from the

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medical school as his own body, but he was unable to follow through and life moved on.

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That same summer, Holmes Pharmacy's business continued to do very well in Inglewood. As

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I mentioned earlier, Holmes had a knack for business. So it was no surprise that he had

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been eyeing a vacant lot across the street from the pharmacy for a very long time. He

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eventually purchased the lot under a false name of H.S. Campbell and soon began sketching

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out plans for what would come later. In 1889, Holmes designed a three story hotel with the

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intent to accommodate visitors for public events coming soon to this area. Holmes balanced

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the construction of his hotel with successful pharmacy business. Since he had a background

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in medicine, he was living what he could be considered as a very comfortable life. He

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was flirtatious with female customers who came to his shop. They would ask to speak

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with Holmes directly. Now remember, Holmes was married to Murda at this time. Murda thought

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her husband's behavior was cute at first, but as soon became very jealous and lonely.

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Watching my husband flirt with a bunch of other women would be cute in the least. I

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know. Could you imagine? Maybe, well, maybe she was kind of proud thinking she had a real

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catch there. True, because he was a pharmacist and he was, he was building the hotel. So

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obviously he was well off in the community, right? Yeah. And Holmes was very, he was a

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very elegant man in a lot of people's eyes and everybody had him on a pedestal at times.

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This is a man that really took over the city and very pleasant personality. So Holmes planned

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out his building without consulting an architect. He wanted the first floor to be retail space

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so he could generate income and also bring in as many women to the area as possible.

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He started a woman's placement agency to support the movement of women going to work. Eventually

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he opened a new pharmacy on the first floor after selling off his first pharmacy. The

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second and third floors were designed to be apartments. And this is where Holmes took

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up his own residence. He built a large office overlooking the corner of 63rd and Wallace,

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which was important because it was announced that the world's Columbian fair would take

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place in Inglewood. Holmes building would eventually be just a short streetcar ride

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from the end of 63rd. So a lot of people would be on the path just to get to his hotel. You

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know, I know we talked about Downton Abbey in the past. There was another show. This

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is reminding me of that time, that time period, Mr. Selfridge. Have you ever seen that one?

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No. Okay. He's the guy that actually came up with the term, the customers always right.

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Really? Yeah. And it's one of those PBS specials. You all, if you don't watch PBS specials,

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they're amazing, but it's just a part of history. His name is Mr. Selfridge and he opened, he

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was an American that moved over to Europe and really started the retail business over

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there. Kind of like the size of a department store like Sears or JC Penney of its time.

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Right. But he coined, he coined the phrase, the customer is always right. I would definitely

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recommend that. So Holmes kind of sounds kind of like the same way as far as an entrepreneur

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and how he is, you know, started. That's a really good concept for retail space on the

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bottom floor. And think about how people are, or how communities are being developed today.

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I don't know if you have that in your community where you live, but I see a bunch of residential

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slash retail neighborhoods going up where you've got either townhouses in the same area

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as little mini malls. Have you seen those? Yeah, I know what you mean. Yeah. So this

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is pretty revolutionary with his time. It was. Details of his new pharmacy blueprints

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gave Holmes the most pleasure. Drawings included a wooden chute that went from a secret location

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on the second floor all the way to the basement. In the next room, Holmes also designed a large

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walk-in vault with airtight seams and asbestos coated iron walls. Inside a closet, he would

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be able to control a gas jet into this vault and throughout the entire building. The large

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basement had hidden chambers and the sub basement will be stored for his precious goods. What

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kind of precious goods? We'll see. Okay. In 1889, Holmes finally had his hotel designed

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the way he wanted it. And it was time to break ground to begin construction. Although he

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had plenty of money, he paid his workers so poorly that construction workers on the castle

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project would either quit or be fired. This suited Holmes, which could have been his intention

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in the first place so that no one would know his full intent of the architectural design

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of what would later be referred to as his murder castle. He deliberately had different

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tradesmen build separate parts of his hotel so no one knew he was building a murder hotel.

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The hotel layout was designed to secret passages so that when Holmes brought people into his

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office, he could take them undetected to the chute located in a private bedroom. He would

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place the bodies through a trap door, which disposed of the body below. Then he dragged

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the body to the dissection lab. At the far end of the lab, he had another trap door to

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drop the body into. Holmes would then go back to his private bathroom and enter a secret

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stairway to where the body lay on a platform. I know they didn't, did they have elevators

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back then? No. Okay. So he's, they must have because they have high rises. Oh yeah. So

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it sounds to me like he's just going up and down and up and down and up and down. He's

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getting a great workout. Okay. And then I guess too, while you're, while you're talking

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about this, I'm curious to know where in the world is his mindset because he's talking,

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he built a hotel to be a murderous hotel. And then he's, he's designed it so that he

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could drag people and drop them through all these trap doors. That was his intention.

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That's why he liked to have it right on that corner, right near where the fair was going

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to be. I thought he was, okay, I'm sorry. I know he's a serial killer, but how in the

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world does he function? Because he has got the community. So what's the word I'm looking

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for? Wrapped around their finger. Yeah. And nobody's the wiser. That's crazy. It gets

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crazier. Okay. Keep going. Where am I starting now? I don't know. This is intriguing. I talked

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about drop the corpse into the basement. Okay. Some rooms were specifically designed to be

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killing rooms. Guess who stayed in the hotel said that its design was confusing and felt

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somewhat like a maze. Tom's eventually completed construction of his hotel in 1891 and began

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advertising in the local newspapers for women to come to work for him. However, one of the

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conditions at home made upon employment was that anyone who worked for him was required

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to carry a life insurance policy. What do you think about that? Okay. That's fishy.

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I mean, I get it. I have life insurance through my work, but it's, you know, I know sign of

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the times and how things change over the decades and centuries, but requirement upon working

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with somebody is to get a life insurance policy. Yeah, that's wrong on all fronts. It's a big

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red flag to me. He agreed to pay the premiums as long as his employees listed him as the

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beneficiary. These conditions also applied to any guests that stayed at his hotel. Eventually,

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if you haven't guessed yet, many have had his guests and homes acquaintances would vanish.

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I'm sorry. I'm perplexed. Anybody that came to work for him had to have a life insurance

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policy and he was supposed to be listed as the beneficiary. Exactly. I know when I get

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on an airplane, you have an option to get travel insurance with beneficiaries that,

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you know, in case I'm up in the plane and it comes down while I'm flying, right? But

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to go stay in a hotel and get life insurance. It's kind of funny in a way, but it's not.

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I'm just like, if I were a guest, I would be questioning that. Why are you forcing me

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to get life insurance? Is there something I need to know? Exactly. Holmes was very crafty

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and he had a knack for whining and dining, not only the woman around town, but also any

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gentlemen that he owed money to. Remember, Holmes was a con artist before he ended up

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in Inglewood. He was always charming and never lost his temper. Despite that fact, he was

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known to be a violent man with his first wife, Clara. Most of his major purchases were made

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on credit, but he had no intention of ever paying what he owed. In fact, Holmes was so

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arrogant that he didn't think he would ever be prosecuted. Whenever a creditor came to

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collect money for his debts, Holmes directed them to H.S. Campbell, a fictitious name

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that Holmes created for himself. He would whine and dine the debt collectors so that

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after parting ways, the amount he owed would never actually be collected. It was estimated

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that Holmes owed $200,000 on his credit lines, but he was crafty and always had many more

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money schemes in the works that he would constantly try to collect money on. He's always scheming

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for sure. Too many schemes for one man. In November 1890, officials decided that the

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next World's Columbian Exposition or World's Fair would be built in Jackson Park in Chicago,

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which caught Holmes' attention. It was at this time that he decided to turn his building

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into a hotel because he knew he would have a lot of people coming and going because of

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this fair when it came to town in 1893. So the park is where they were building the World's

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Fair or correct? Do you know Central Park in New York City? Did you know that the architect

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for Central Park in New York was the one that also designed this Jackson Park? No. Yeah.

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I mean, I've been to Central Park. I had no idea it was as big as it is. You see it on

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TV, but you don't think it's that big. You actually could take a horse and carriage ride

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around the whole park and it take you a while. I've never seen Jackson Park, so I'd be interested

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to see that one. Yeah. Jackson Park, I was just thinking a small park, but now that you

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mentioned it would have to be large to hold a fair. And if he designed the Central Park,

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then he would want to design another park in that area of the States to accommodate

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lots of people and greenery. Oh yeah. First, Holmes relied on the fact that people would

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come to Chicago from all over the world. Second, he considered this was a prime opportunity

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to offer lodging near the fair, most especially to women and that he could easily seduce.

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While he was creating this plan, Holmes bought a fire insurance policy on his hotel because

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he fully intended to burn that hotel once the fair closed so that he could collect the

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insurance money. It would also cover up any evidence that might have been left behind.

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After all, Holmes was a scam artist, but was in fact planning for something much more ominous.

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Early in 1891, Holmes started redesigning his hotel and again hiring and firing workers

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that were none the wiser. Holmes did not worry that the police station was situated in the

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Wentworth district, which was just outside of Chicago. He was on a friendly terms with

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a local policeman and knew each one of them by name. Occasionally, Holmes would even treat

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them to a free dinner or coffee from his restaurant, which kept the police friendly with Holmes

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and even protective of them. That same year, a drifter by the name of Ned

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Connor landed in Chicago with his wife and eight-year-old child in the hopes to find

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work as a jeweler. Ned eventually occupied a jewelry counter on one wall of Holmes' pharmacy,

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adding to its profitability. Ned's wife, Julia, was hired by Holmes to keep the books for

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his pharmacy, while Ned's 18-year-old sister, Gertrude, eventually followed her brother

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to town and Holmes hired her to manage his mail order medicine business. Holmes' intent

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to accommodate Ned with his family was to eventually kill the entire family.

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So there you go. There is a family that would be suitable for his purposes.

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Yeah. He likes to go for the whole family, doesn't he?

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Yes. You were talking about the family of three,

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I guess, the start of this, where he chickened out because he was afraid he was going to

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get caught. Yeah.

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Yeah. Interesting. And true to his nature, Holmes was extremely

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attentive to both Julia and Gertrude, which for obvious reasons made Ned uncomfortable.

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Julia and Gertrude, however, were quite smitten with Holmes and Ned was becoming increasingly

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jealous for good reason though, because in 1891, Julia left Ned to be with Holmes.

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What? Yeah. And get this. She even became pregnant

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and demanded that Holmes marry her. Now remember, Holmes was already married to not one, but

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two women. Only Julia was not aware of any of this when she demanded to get married.

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However, Holmes was very sympathetic toward her and agreed to get married if she let him

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perform an abortion. Why? I'm confused. So he's, okay, is he, is

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he trying to smooth talk her and say, sure, we'll get married. Why would he? I don't know

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how to respond to this, Beth. This is his mindset is just so, oh, he's calculating.

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Cause I don't understand why he would tell her he wants her to get an abortion if he

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agrees to marry her. But it sounds to me too, that she's a little demanding.

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Yeah. And he obviously doesn't want children. He doesn't want to be tied down. That's the

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thing there. I'm glad you brought that up because earlier

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you talked about him, I guess it was at Murda that he was married to and they had a little

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baby named Lucy. At some point, did you in your readings find anything about how good

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of a father he was? No, they never talked about him as being

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a father at all. Interesting. Yeah. They just skimmed on that.

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Okay. Keep going. This is good. Yeah. This procedure was to take place on Christmas Eve

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and on that night, Julia tucked her daughter Pearl into bed. Come Christmas Eve, Holmes

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was very happy and wished Julia a Merry Christmas before leading her to the second floor of

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the hotel and into a room specifically prepared for the abortion.

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Holmes made Julia as comfortable as possible. And when she was settled and relaxed, it is

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said that he covered her face with a rag soaked in chloroform and Julia closed her eyes for

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the very last time on Christmas day. Other stories say that this was a case of

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a watched abortion, but regardless, Holmes later confessed that Julia's death was intentional.

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On Christmas morning, Julia's friends, the crows were waiting eagerly for their arrival

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of Julia and Pearl. They waited as long as they could, but by 10 30, they left for the

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day and arrived back very late into the evening. What happened to Pearl?

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I don't think anybody ever knows. Okay.

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However, there was no sign of Julia and Pearl. Presents were not touched and when asked where

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they were, Holmes replied that they left for their trip to Davenport earlier than expected.

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She and Pearl were never seen again. It was later revealed that Pearl was poisoned because

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she was old enough to witness her mother going missing and Holmes needed her to be quiet.

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Now that's quite sad, isn't it? Yeah.

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However, there was no sign of Julia and Pearl. Presents were not touched and when asked where

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they were, Holmes replied that they left for their trip to Davenport earlier than expected.

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Some reports also state that Holmes may have had an accomplice in this case, but nothing

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is confirmed. Holmes allegedly planned to adopt Pearl out to another couple, but Pearl

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would have easily said something array. So Holmes took care of her himself.

350
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Now while you were talking, I'm intrigued because it seems like he tells a lot of people

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that anybody he's associated with is out of town. So, I mean, magically people just leave

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to go out of town. The pharmacist who left town because her husband died and now Pearl

353
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and her mother left town. Were they going out of town for a visit?

354
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He never mentions. He just likes to use that out of town.

355
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Okay. Because too, Clara and Murda left town too. Did he do something to them that I'm

356
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going to find out in just a little bit? We'll see.

357
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Okay. That's because he keeps, okay. I'm keep going, Beth. This is great. I'm just like,

358
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my mind is going in so many different directions with this story.

359
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I'm sure you have a lot of questions and hopefully I can answer them. Just after Christmas, Holmes

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invited one of his associates, Charles Chappell, to come to work for him because Chappell was

361
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a master at stripping down human flesh and reassembling it so the skeleton bones could

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be displayed in doctor's offices. Chappell learned the skill while working at Cook County

363
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Hospital for the needs of the medical students. As I mentioned earlier, bodies were highly

364
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sought after at this time because at the height of their popularity, grave robbing was very

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popular and became a high profitable industry. Now, are you talking about how he's assembling

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like the skeleton like I was telling you when Cathy took me into the, I'm going to call

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it a morgue. Yes, exactly. And they hang in doctor's offices.

368
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Yeah. Well, back then they were real human skeletons.

369
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Wow. Okay. And this guy did this for a living.

370
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Yes. Wow. When Chappell arrived, Holmes showed Charles

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Chappell his second floor room containing a table, instruments, and solvents. Chappell

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didn't bat an eye because obviously he had a medical background and so did Holmes. When

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Chappell saw a woman on the table looking like a skinned rabbit, he didn't think twice

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because he knew Holmes was a doctor. Holmes told Chappell that he was keeping up with

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his medical practice and was performing some dissection, but now he was finished. He then

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offered Chappell $26 to fully clean off the body and just leave the skeleton for Holmes.

377
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Soon after Holmes ended up selling the skeleton for $26, he invested into Chappell services.

378
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Now I have a story about, I mentioned about the skinned rabbit. Did you know that dad

379
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did a lot of picking up and shooting of rabbits for food?

380
00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:44,620
You know, you're saying when he was growing up?

381
00:35:44,620 --> 00:35:47,420
Yeah. Yeah. I do remember hearing stories that he

382
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used to have to go rabbit hunting. Yeah. And I just love, this is so inventive.

383
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He's a comic when you listen to his stories, what he did was he would hang up his rabbits

384
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to dry. I don't know the process. I guess they have to dry so many hours and they kept

385
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disappearing on them. So then he once hung up a rabbit and he made sure that he told

386
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people that he had a cat was missing from the clothesline.

387
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Wait, was somebody in the neighborhood taking his rabbits to eat?

388
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Yeah. Yeah.

389
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I bet that stopped, didn't it?

390
00:36:21,380 --> 00:36:22,380
It did.

391
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Oh my gosh.

392
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I loved hearing his stories.

393
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Oh man. No, I do know he liked to hunt turtles.

394
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Yes. I remember going snapping turtle catching with them.

395
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I never got to eat the soup.

396
00:36:38,860 --> 00:36:39,860
It was good.

397
00:36:39,860 --> 00:36:44,540
I'll never know. But I do remember, did he have you? Okay, you all, I don't know if you

398
00:36:44,540 --> 00:36:47,780
know how big these snapping turtles are, but when you're little they're humongous.

399
00:36:47,780 --> 00:36:52,980
Yes, I remember it to be giganticus, like four feet wide.

400
00:36:52,980 --> 00:36:55,300
But we were tiny back then.

401
00:36:55,300 --> 00:37:00,060
Yeah. The smaller you are, the bigger things look, right? Did you have to hold the shoe

402
00:37:00,060 --> 00:37:01,660
or was that just Cathy?

403
00:37:01,660 --> 00:37:03,060
I think we both did.

404
00:37:03,060 --> 00:37:07,860
I know he actually protected me from that. I never, you all, I'm so glad I never had

405
00:37:07,860 --> 00:37:13,060
to do this, but I do know the stories because, and I was never allowed near this situation.

406
00:37:13,060 --> 00:37:18,540
Our dad used to go snapping turtle hunting and he would bring those, the turtles home

407
00:37:18,540 --> 00:37:24,340
and make soup out of it. Well, what do you have to do to prepare a snapping turtle?

408
00:37:24,340 --> 00:37:28,820
You had to, well, my sisters, Beth and Cathy, used to have to get a little white tennis

409
00:37:28,820 --> 00:37:35,780
shoe and just stick their hands out so that the snapping turtle would reach out and snap

410
00:37:35,780 --> 00:37:38,980
the shoe. Did it ever snap out of your hands, Beth?

411
00:37:38,980 --> 00:37:41,740
No, but I remember dad says buck up.

412
00:37:41,740 --> 00:37:45,940
He said buck up to you as he is bringing it in.

413
00:37:45,940 --> 00:37:51,780
Because we were being skirmish and he didn't like that.

414
00:37:51,780 --> 00:37:56,860
Because you were witnessing the, what happened when the, when the turtle reached out its

415
00:37:56,860 --> 00:38:02,220
neck to grab the shoe, which would be when the axe came down.

416
00:38:02,220 --> 00:38:03,220
Yes.

417
00:38:03,220 --> 00:38:04,820
And dad was a pretty good shot there.

418
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:08,420
Yes. I still have 10 fingers.

419
00:38:08,420 --> 00:38:12,020
10 fingers and 10 toes. That's good.

420
00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:14,620
I'm glad I was sheltered from that man.

421
00:38:14,620 --> 00:38:18,380
Man, you were pretty young back then. So, oh wow.

422
00:38:18,380 --> 00:38:24,220
In mid January, 1892, a new family by the name of Doyle moved into Julia's apartment

423
00:38:24,220 --> 00:38:29,620
in Holmes's building. As the family began settling into the apartment, they noticed

424
00:38:29,620 --> 00:38:34,380
dishes on the table and Pearl's sweater draped over a chair.

425
00:38:34,380 --> 00:38:38,940
Of course, the Doyles were none the wiser, but it did appear that the apartment was not

426
00:38:38,940 --> 00:38:42,500
yet vacant. Holmes quickly apologized for the mess and

427
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:48,580
stated that Julia's sister got sick. So she and her daughter, Pearl left for a train station

428
00:38:48,580 --> 00:38:52,100
rather quickly. Then he soon found out that they would not

429
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:57,460
be returning to the hotel for their belongings because they were well taken care of at their

430
00:38:57,460 --> 00:39:00,900
destination. Later, Holmes had another story about disappearance

431
00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:06,780
of Julia and Pearl, where he stated that he saw Julia around January 1st when he collected

432
00:39:06,780 --> 00:39:12,060
her rent and that Julia told him, as well as others, that she and Pearl were leaving

433
00:39:12,060 --> 00:39:17,060
to avoid her husband Ned. He was collecting rent from her, but they

434
00:39:17,060 --> 00:39:19,420
were supposed to be getting married, right? Yes.

435
00:39:19,420 --> 00:39:22,300
So they were not living together just yet? It must not have been.

436
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:23,820
Probably not. Not yet.

437
00:39:23,820 --> 00:39:29,420
No. I find the book is so detailed that it just touches on subjects here and there and

438
00:39:29,420 --> 00:39:34,700
it doesn't give you a lot of information. And we have a 30 minute podcast, so that's

439
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:36,980
all we can fit into, right? Keep going.

440
00:39:36,980 --> 00:39:39,300
Okay. Where do I start?

441
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:44,260
Holmes also denied that any affair took place between himself and Julia and also noted that

442
00:39:44,260 --> 00:39:48,860
Julia had a hot temper. Other people who knew her would say differently.

443
00:39:48,860 --> 00:39:53,260
Keep in mind that we are building some of this storyline to later events. So some of

444
00:39:53,260 --> 00:39:57,260
the names that we are bringing up will play out later in part two.

445
00:39:57,260 --> 00:40:02,980
In the spring of 1892, Holmes' assistant, Benjamin Pitezel, was in the city of Dwight,

446
00:40:02,980 --> 00:40:09,800
Illinois, about 75 miles or 120 kilometers southwest of Chicago. Pitezel was closely

447
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,980
associated with Holmes through many of the scams that took place before Holmes moved

448
00:40:13,980 --> 00:40:19,980
to Chicago. At this time, he was taking the cure for alcoholism at the Keeley Institute.

449
00:40:19,980 --> 00:40:24,220
This cure solution was a secret, but chemists were able to figure out that the solution

450
00:40:24,220 --> 00:40:29,760
created a state of euphoria, sedation, and amnesia. Eventually, Holmes recreated his

451
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,380
own cure and opened the Silver Ash Institute, which he established inside the castle he

452
00:40:34,380 --> 00:40:40,660
built. This institute was also later used to continue on with Holmes' mail order pharmaceuticals

453
00:40:40,660 --> 00:40:46,180
business. So Pitezel returned to Inglewood and told Holmes that he met a beautiful woman

454
00:40:46,180 --> 00:40:53,020
named Emmeline Seagrand. Emmeline was 24 years old, a blonde, and since 1891 worked in the

455
00:40:53,020 --> 00:40:58,300
office of Dr. Keeley. Holmes immediately became intrigued with a hold of Emmeline, offering

456
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:03,740
her double what she was making in wages to work for him. Emmeline quickly accepted the

457
00:41:03,740 --> 00:41:10,540
offer and moved to Chicago with $800 in savings. Once she arrived, Emmeline moved into an apartment

458
00:41:10,540 --> 00:41:15,700
near Holmes' building. Of course, Holmes put on his charm and bought her a bicycle

459
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:20,900
to draw her in. They often took bicycle rides together and rode to the construction site

460
00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:25,460
where Holmes' building was being constructed. This building is going on and on, isn't it?

461
00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:30,940
Oh, it took forever. One day, Ned Connor went to Holmes' office where he met Emmeline. He

462
00:41:30,940 --> 00:41:36,060
was angry and wanted to talk to Holmes about a problem with a mortgage. Emmeline was the

463
00:41:36,060 --> 00:41:40,380
one to greet him, and he couldn't help but notice the way Emmeline talked to Ned about

464
00:41:40,380 --> 00:41:45,660
Holmes. Ned later said he could tell Emmeline was extremely fond of Holmes just by the look

465
00:41:45,660 --> 00:41:50,020
in her eyes when his name was brought up. Ned recalled telling Emmeline that Holmes

466
00:41:50,020 --> 00:41:55,100
was bad for her and that she should get away as soon as possible. But of course, Emmeline

467
00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:56,100
ignored his advice.

468
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:58,940
Isn't Ned the one that was married to Julia?

469
00:41:58,940 --> 00:42:02,340
You know what? He's got so many women, I'm confused.

470
00:42:02,340 --> 00:42:06,460
Okay, I'm just coming in to talk about the mortgage. While you were talking, I was thinking

471
00:42:06,460 --> 00:42:12,260
he was probably the one that Julia left him to go be with Holmes. Okay, yeah, there's

472
00:42:12,260 --> 00:42:14,100
a lot of women, lots of them.

473
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:22,140
On May 1st, 1892, a doctor named M. B. Lawrence and his wife moved into a five-room apartment

474
00:42:22,140 --> 00:42:27,060
in Holmes' building. The Lawrences often saw Emmeline and Holmes together, and soon Lawrence

475
00:42:27,060 --> 00:42:32,100
could also tell this was not just a working relationship. As it turned out, Emmeline was

476
00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:37,240
deeply in love with Holmes because she considered him to have so many good qualities. According

477
00:42:37,240 --> 00:42:42,540
to Emmeline, Holmes was even the son of an English lord, for whom Holmes swore to her

478
00:42:42,540 --> 00:42:47,980
secrecy when he disclosed this to her. Emmeline could not help herself and eventually told

479
00:42:47,980 --> 00:42:53,500
her friends about Holmes' family line and in turn swore them to secrecy, just like she

480
00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:54,500
was.

481
00:42:54,500 --> 00:42:57,220
You know, this is like a harlequin romance, isn't it?

482
00:42:57,220 --> 00:42:58,220
It is.

483
00:42:58,220 --> 00:43:00,060
There's a lot going on here.

484
00:43:00,060 --> 00:43:05,940
Yes, and it was very confusing trying to put everything together for this podcast.

485
00:43:05,940 --> 00:43:09,780
You're doing a great job. That's just so intriguing with the storyline here.

486
00:43:09,780 --> 00:43:15,020
Yes, it really is an intriguing story. Emmeline was a kind and outgoing woman. She made many

487
00:43:15,020 --> 00:43:20,220
friends and kept in touch with her family and friends in Indiana. In October 2nd, cousins

488
00:43:20,220 --> 00:43:26,580
Dr. and Mrs. B.J. Seagrand visited Emmeline when he was researching some family history

489
00:43:26,580 --> 00:43:31,820
on the Seagrands. They did not meet Emmeline before this time, but when they did meet,

490
00:43:31,820 --> 00:43:37,500
Dr. Seagrand was charmed by her pleasing manners. He later said she was a wonderful woman, physically

491
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:42,340
being tall and a lot of blonde hair. What is it with men and blonde hair?

492
00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:43,340
Blondes have more fun.

493
00:43:43,340 --> 00:43:46,180
Okay, sorry, go ahead.

494
00:43:46,180 --> 00:43:50,740
When Emmeline took the Seagrands on a tour of Holmes' building, she told them there was

495
00:43:50,740 --> 00:43:55,820
an effort to transform the building into a hotel for the World's Fair exhibition guests.

496
00:43:55,820 --> 00:44:01,020
Dr. Seagrand never met Holmes on this visit, but they heard a lot of grand stories of Holmes

497
00:44:01,020 --> 00:44:07,700
from Emmeline. She told of Holmes' charm, generosity, and how business savvy he was.

498
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:13,220
Soon after Seagrand's visit, Holmes asked Emmeline to marry him and she accepted. He

499
00:44:13,220 --> 00:44:18,660
promised her a honeymoon in Europe and a visit to his father, the Lord.

500
00:44:18,660 --> 00:44:24,860
Emmeline left for Holmes' building in Inglewood on the first day of December 1892. She stopped

501
00:44:24,860 --> 00:44:28,940
in at the Lawrence's to give them an early Christmas present because she was going to

502
00:44:28,940 --> 00:44:33,820
Indiana to spend Christmas with her family. For some reason, Mrs. Lawrence had the feeling

503
00:44:33,820 --> 00:44:37,860
that this would be the last time she would see Emmeline and asked if she was planning

504
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:43,380
to go away for good. And Emmeline answered, maybe. The question was, did she finally learn

505
00:44:43,380 --> 00:44:47,980
things about Holmes, such as putting things on credit with no intentions of paying debt?

506
00:44:47,980 --> 00:44:53,700
Now, was Mrs. Lawrence the wife of the doctor that came to town, living in that five bedroom

507
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:58,580
or that five room rental in the building? So they were just acquaintances, right?

508
00:44:58,580 --> 00:45:02,060
Just acquaintances. Okay. I was trying to connect the relationship

509
00:45:02,060 --> 00:45:04,300
here. There was a question as to whether or not

510
00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:10,420
Holmes spent Emmeline's $800 savings. Emmeline never said goodbye to the Lawrence's. Her

511
00:45:10,420 --> 00:45:16,140
visits simply stopped. Mrs. Lawrence asked Holmes about Emmeline's whereabouts three

512
00:45:16,140 --> 00:45:22,400
times where he provided a different version of events every time. The last excuse was

513
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:27,900
that Holmes was sworn to secrecy and wasn't to tell anyone he and she were getting married

514
00:45:27,900 --> 00:45:31,700
or moving to Europe. Were they going to get married and go to Europe

515
00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:37,860
together or getting married to another man? Yes. She was going to get married to another

516
00:45:37,860 --> 00:45:41,780
man. Okay. I got you. Holmes is telling the Lawrence's

517
00:45:41,780 --> 00:45:46,700
that she was getting married to another man in Europe. So he's sending another woman away.

518
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:51,700
Exactly. Holmes even presented what appeared to be a wedding invitation. Mrs. Lawrence

519
00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:56,540
questioned whether the invitation was even valid because it was not professionally printed

520
00:45:56,540 --> 00:45:59,460
like everyone seemed to be doing at this point in time.

521
00:45:59,460 --> 00:46:05,020
So it was like he received a wedding invitation to Emmeline's wedding to another man.

522
00:46:05,020 --> 00:46:11,740
Yes. More than likely he's the one that drew it up because it did look so fake and he was

523
00:46:11,740 --> 00:46:17,860
running out of excuses. Basically, he told her that when she went to Europe, nobody ever

524
00:46:17,860 --> 00:46:21,300
heard from her again. That was easy to say back in the 1800s.

525
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:26,500
Yeah, I guess it was. I mean, I'm really curious about his first two wives. I might be doing

526
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:31,420
a little bit of research before part two. Oh, interesting. Yes, I'd like to hear that.

527
00:46:31,420 --> 00:46:36,220
Mrs. Lawrence wouldn't let things go regarding Emmeline's disappearance. She said that the

528
00:46:36,220 --> 00:46:42,300
day after the disappearance, Holmes office door was kept locked and no one entered except

529
00:46:42,300 --> 00:46:47,700
Holmes himself. Mrs. Lawrence would later say that about at 7pm, two gentlemen were

530
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:53,100
asked to take a trunk out of Holmes office and carry it outside where an express wagon

531
00:46:53,100 --> 00:46:58,860
took the trunk away. He was a nosy neighbor. She was, but in this case, it's good to be

532
00:46:58,860 --> 00:47:04,220
nosy. Yeah, you everybody needs a nosy one nosy neighbor, not a bunch, but just at least

533
00:47:04,220 --> 00:47:10,460
one. Yeah, then they know your comings and goings for your welfare. Three years later,

534
00:47:10,460 --> 00:47:14,940
something was discovered by police, which was described as a phenomenon. How do you

535
00:47:14,940 --> 00:47:24,100
pronounce that? Phenomenon. Here she is. All right, I'll help you with that one. You've

536
00:47:24,100 --> 00:47:32,620
helped me in the past. It's phenomenon. So I tried so hard. All right. Something was

537
00:47:32,620 --> 00:47:39,060
described as a phenomenon. Yeah, and it would defy scientific explanation. Somehow a small

538
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:43,620
footprint thought to be that of a woman's foot was deeply etched into the door of the

539
00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:47,620
room with the vault in the murder castle. There were details of the footprints trying

540
00:47:47,620 --> 00:47:52,780
to be rubbed off by hand, then with soap and water, but still the footprint remained clear

541
00:47:52,780 --> 00:47:57,240
as ever. No one could explain this mystery. The only theory that the police could come

542
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:02,260
up with was that Holmes was known to have an avid interest in chemistry. Their theory

543
00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:07,220
was that Emmaline had stepped in acid, placed her feet against the door and etched her footprint

544
00:48:07,220 --> 00:48:12,420
into the vault's door about two feet from the floor. Something peculiar occurred in

545
00:48:12,420 --> 00:48:18,220
this room-sized vault, but Holmes never confessed to anything. Emmaline's parents did not receive

546
00:48:18,220 --> 00:48:22,980
any more mail from her, even though it was common for her to write to them two or three

547
00:48:22,980 --> 00:48:28,700
times a week. Emmaline's parents never imagined that she could have been harmed, but rather

548
00:48:28,700 --> 00:48:36,380
that she died in Europe where Holmes said she moved to. On March 16th, 1893, Peter Seagrand,

549
00:48:36,380 --> 00:48:40,060
Emmaline's father wrote to Holmes asking Holmes about the whereabouts of his daughter, but

550
00:48:40,060 --> 00:48:45,540
never got a reply back. On the other hand, Holmes was confident that everything was kosher.

551
00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:50,660
Emmaline was carefully disposed of and now he could focus of his enterprises. At this

552
00:48:50,660 --> 00:48:56,860
point, Holmes owned part of a legitimate company that produced a machine for duplicating documents.

553
00:48:56,860 --> 00:49:03,380
That like a Xerox machine? Yeah. He didn't know it was that old. I know. This story comes

554
00:49:03,380 --> 00:49:09,660
out with so many small tidbits. It blows the mind. You're going to find out a lot in part

555
00:49:09,660 --> 00:49:16,380
too about these funny tidbits. So Holmes also owned a lucrative business that sold mail

556
00:49:16,380 --> 00:49:23,260
order pharmaceuticals. Kind of like Amazon today. He was quite resourceful. Yes, he was.

557
00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:29,180
And he also started an alcohol treatment center called the Silver Ash Institute. And he collected

558
00:49:29,180 --> 00:49:35,100
rent from his tenants. Definitely business savvy for sure. I mean, a really good entrepreneurial

559
00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:40,260
mind if he just left it at that, you know? Yep. Although Holmes continued to spend a

560
00:49:40,260 --> 00:49:45,140
lot of time preparing his hotel for the World Fair guests, he began to think that his time

561
00:49:45,140 --> 00:49:49,260
in Chicago would soon be over because Mrs. Lawrence kept questioning Holmes about the

562
00:49:49,260 --> 00:49:54,620
whereabouts of Emmaline. Holmes would give different accounts each time she asked, yet

563
00:49:54,620 --> 00:50:00,900
Mrs. Lawrence was still not convinced that Emmaline was not in danger. After all, she

564
00:50:00,900 --> 00:50:06,380
had that feeling we mentioned earlier, that she would never see Emmaline again. Around

565
00:50:06,380 --> 00:50:12,040
the same time, Holmes needed a new stenographer and typist and hired a woman by the name of

566
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:18,300
Minnie Williams. Holmes met her on a trip to Boston. Minnie was perfect for Holmes.

567
00:50:18,300 --> 00:50:24,260
She was plain, short, and on the heavy side. She was described as having a masculine nose,

568
00:50:24,260 --> 00:50:30,460
thick, dark eyebrows, and almost no neck at all. What does that sound like? Well, you

569
00:50:30,460 --> 00:50:38,340
have a neck. I do. But you have bushy eyebrows. I do. Well, not anymore. I have since known

570
00:50:38,340 --> 00:50:46,500
to go and get those waxed. But I do have the family curse of dark, thick eyebrows for sure.

571
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:52,580
Yes, you do. This is funny. I'm almost out of eyebrows. They're almost off. You know

572
00:50:52,580 --> 00:50:57,820
what's bad? I'm starting to see gray in my eyebrows. Not me. I don't have gray hair.

573
00:50:57,820 --> 00:51:05,020
I just have gray in my dark eyebrows. Baby sister. Minnie was far unlike the women that

574
00:51:05,020 --> 00:51:12,780
Holmes had previously hired. She had an estate valued at $50,000, which is about $1.5 million

575
00:51:12,780 --> 00:51:18,100
today. Eventually, Holmes won Minnie over as he was known to do with many other women

576
00:51:18,100 --> 00:51:24,060
and she fell madly in love with him. When he asked to marry him, she didn't hesitate

577
00:51:24,060 --> 00:51:30,020
to say yes. Holmes promised a lavish life and children with Minnie, but first he convinced

578
00:51:30,020 --> 00:51:36,060
her to transfer the deed of her Fort Worth land to a man named Alexander Bond. Bond in

579
00:51:36,060 --> 00:51:43,140
turn signed the deed over to Benton T. Lyman. Minnie did not know that Bond was just another

580
00:51:43,140 --> 00:51:49,420
alias for Holmes or that Lyman was an assistant of Holmes. Nor did she know that he was still

581
00:51:49,420 --> 00:51:54,700
married to other women. In the meantime, Holmes and Minnie married at a private ceremony where

582
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:59,980
only she, Holmes, and the preacher were present. Holmes arranged everything, but there was

583
00:51:59,980 --> 00:52:05,580
no record of their marriage entered into the marriage registry of Cook County, Illinois.

584
00:52:05,580 --> 00:52:11,020
It was a fake wedding? I would guess so. Would it have been even a real preacher? Maybe one

585
00:52:11,020 --> 00:52:16,780
of his friends. Yeah, I think you're right on that. I'm also wondering what's the timeline

586
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:22,220
on all these courtships that he's got going on. My gosh, it seems like as soon as he meets

587
00:52:22,220 --> 00:52:29,860
a woman, he falls instantaneously in love. Yeah, or they do anyway. Yeah, he's a charmer.

588
00:52:29,860 --> 00:52:38,300
For sure. Okay, so from 1889 to 1891 is when he's constructing his hotel. So it seems,

589
00:52:38,300 --> 00:52:45,420
okay, so the fair's not even here yet. No. And that's only two years time. So he's got

590
00:52:45,420 --> 00:52:52,300
these women who are smitten with him. And he's just a smooth talker in that short period of time. So

591
00:52:52,300 --> 00:52:59,100
I mean, I don't know why people in the community would not be a little bit more vocal about how

592
00:52:59,100 --> 00:53:07,740
many relationships this guy's in. Yeah, he's a good businessman, and he's a charming man around town.

593
00:53:07,740 --> 00:53:12,940
But I don't know, I'm sure they had their suspicions, but they had lives too, you know what I mean?

594
00:53:12,940 --> 00:53:19,420
Exactly. So I think now is a good time to stop part one. I really wanted to go through the names

595
00:53:19,420 --> 00:53:24,220
and relationships that Holmes was involved in, because we will dig deeper into these people in

596
00:53:24,220 --> 00:53:30,460
part two. But here is what we know so far. One, Holmes was a known con man who moved to Chicago

597
00:53:30,460 --> 00:53:35,660
to escape this reputation, but continue to use women and plot more sinister things when the

598
00:53:35,660 --> 00:53:42,700
World's Fair came to town. Two, Holmes went under several aliases to swindle men and women out of

599
00:53:42,700 --> 00:53:48,620
money, which left it almost impossible to collect his debt or connect him with fraud. Three, Holmes

600
00:53:48,620 --> 00:53:55,100
was married to multiple women who either left him or disappeared, leaving people suspicious of his

601
00:53:55,100 --> 00:54:01,420
accounts of his whereabouts. Four, Holmes could have easily continued running his lucrative business

602
00:54:01,420 --> 00:54:08,220
ventures and collecting rent on both his rental, retail, and residential space in the castle. But

603
00:54:08,220 --> 00:54:14,140
then again, he had the mind of a killer. And lastly, Holmes went on to use the World's Fair as a

604
00:54:14,140 --> 00:54:19,500
backdrop to his murderous schemes, which we will talk about in part two. How did you get through

605
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:26,300
this book, Beth? That is a lot of information. It is. I can't wait for part two. When I finished

606
00:54:26,300 --> 00:54:33,260
the book, I had 18 tight pages. Oh, wow. Had to be condensed from there. Well, now I know that we

607
00:54:33,260 --> 00:54:39,820
have a part two that completely makes sense. I mean, that was, I guess, a really good synopsis on

608
00:54:39,820 --> 00:54:46,620
his personality and he's just fitting right in to society, or at least we think he is.

609
00:54:46,620 --> 00:54:52,220
Well, if you walk away with all that knowledge, then you'll, then you'll understand why people

610
00:54:52,220 --> 00:55:01,500
are so in tune with his mannerisms, his gentlemanness of winning over women and just what a kind fellow

611
00:55:01,500 --> 00:55:06,540
he was, because that's what he wanted to show. Now you said earlier too, when he was married to

612
00:55:06,540 --> 00:55:12,860
Murda that he loved animals and he always had to have a pet. Where did he turn? That's my big

613
00:55:12,860 --> 00:55:19,180
question. If he was doing so well and he was a successful entrepreneur in the community,

614
00:55:19,180 --> 00:55:26,060
what in the world set him off to be the person that he turned out to be? I can't wait. That's a question that we can

615
00:55:26,060 --> 00:55:35,340
never get from any of these people who are murderers and thieves and robbers and they just maybe don't

616
00:55:35,340 --> 00:55:41,180
have a conscience. Yeah, I guess that would probably be it and that's what it boils down to. Well, I

617
00:55:41,180 --> 00:55:47,100
can't wait for part two. Yeah, before we go, do you have a teachable moment for us? A teachable moment?

618
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:51,660
No, I don't have a teachable moment right now. I'm not prepared for that. I meant to look one up, but

619
00:55:52,380 --> 00:55:57,340
I really got to get these teachable moments down, don't I? I said I was going to have them and I'm

620
00:55:57,340 --> 00:56:04,380
not consistent, so I will do my best for next time. No, no teachable moment. How about you? Do you have one?

621
00:56:04,380 --> 00:56:13,340
No, I just finished talking. You're a good storyteller. Wow, I just, wow, that's, yeah,

622
00:56:13,340 --> 00:56:18,780
I'm intrigued. I don't have anything else. If you don't have anything else, I guess we're done with part one.

623
00:56:18,780 --> 00:56:26,140
That's a wrap! That is a wrap, but before we wrap, let's give them our social media sites. I'd like to send

624
00:56:26,140 --> 00:56:32,620
everybody to DyingToBeFound.com, which is spelled just like you see on our logo, because that's where

625
00:56:32,620 --> 00:56:38,540
you can click on to all of our links for social media and we are out there on pretty much all of

626
00:56:38,540 --> 00:56:45,980
the podcasts at this point, so wherever you are, then you can find us on the podcast screen under

627
00:56:45,980 --> 00:56:52,300
True Crime, but I appreciate you guys hanging with us on this episode. It was Beth, you did a great job

628
00:56:52,300 --> 00:56:57,980
and again, you're a great storyteller and I really can't wait till next week when I hear part two.

629
00:56:57,980 --> 00:57:09,340
Yeah, that is a wrap!

630
00:57:27,980 --> 00:57:28,780
you