What do you get when you mix someone who loves true crime and horror movies with someone who's afraid of their own shadow?
Someone like you? Yeah. I'm glad you asked. You get the perfect podcast. We're Carmen and Joanna of Live, Laugh, Murder podcast.
We're not your typical true crime show. Here at Live, Laugh, Murder
we tell stories that might be true crime or they might be the plot of a horror film.
Can you tell the difference? Don't worry though because all is revealed by the end. We are true crime,
sometimes. So check us out. We release bi-weekly on Saturdays. And remember to live, laugh,
but never what Joanna? Murder. Never murder. Thanks guys. Thanks.
Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started,
I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.
Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast.
Listener discretion is strongly advised.
Hi everyone, this is Deb, your host from the true crime podcast, Dying to be Found.
I want to welcome you to The Dash, which is a collection of shorter true story crimes
than you usually hear on our podcast. Like you've seen in our promos,
things are a little bit different this season. So I hope you enjoy these little snippets.
I'll be your solo host for some of these episodes because to be honest with you,
I am going to allow you to be my guinea pigs here.
But the cool thing is is that I've lined up a great group of fellow
podcasters to help me out as a chance to highlight some of my favorite podcasters in our true crime community.
And today I have Carmen here to join me from Live Laugh Murder. So here we go.
Hi guys. Yes, I'm Carmen. Nice to see you. Hi, nice to see you too. Or hear ya. Yeah.
Absolutely. Carmen is just half of the duo of Live Laugh Murder and her co-host
Joanna was not able to join us today, but big shout out to you, Joanna.
I had a chance to talk with you a couple of weeks ago. So I'm sure we'll talk another time. We miss you, Joanna.
Yeah, she'd probably do better than what I know I'm going to do in a little bit later when you give us a taste of your
podcast, but I'm excited and I'm so glad you're here to join us today. Awesome. Before we dash into my storyline,
I thought I'd give you an opportunity to tell our listeners about Live Laugh Murder. So I've got some questions for you.
Well, thank you so much for having me us here on Joanna's Here in Spirit. We really appreciate it.
So yeah, we love your show and we're excited. Great. Great. Great.
All right. So let me just ask you just some basic questions and then we'll kind of go into a little bit more with your
podcast. But I just I'm curious to know always when I talk to other podcasters, first of all,
how do they know their show hosts and what made you guys decide to start a podcast together?
Well, Joanna and I met about five or six years ago through mutual friends. And you know, as you get older,
it's harder to find those deep relationships and we became very just fast friends.
It was like we spoke the same language and we just clicked right away. I love that. Yeah, we met at a happy hour one night
and we just got to talking and we never stopped five or six years later. Oh, I love that even more. Yeah.
And then when it came time to, you know, thinking about the podcast, I really was the one who started thinking about it
during the pandemic. I think like a lot of people, I really got into podcasts and just listening to them while I was
cooking or driving or whatever. And true crime just got me. And at first, I just was playing around with the idea,
you know, what if I started a podcast? What would I talk about? And I would share with Brett, my partner, and he and I
would joke about it at first. And after a little bit of research, I thought this might be possible. And you know,
YouTube school taught me that it was possible.
That's awesome. That kind of goes into my next question, because I wanted to know how you came up with the concept of true
crime and movie ply because that is like really a great concept.
Thank you so much. Well, in the beginning, I knew it had to be horror related in some fashion. And there's a lot of true
crime podcasts out there. So I just wanted to kind of stand out if I could. And it clicked one day. And I thought, what
if I told a horrific story to another person and they had to guess was it true crime or the plot of a movie? It just hit me
out of nowhere. And what if I didn't reveal that till the end? And who better to go to than the chicken of all Joanna, who hates
scary movies and watches, you know, she'll watch Dateline and things like, you know, documentaries, but that's about enough for
her. And she immediately said, Yes, there's no question.
Oh, that's awesome. So what gives you inspiration behind the stories that you guys decide to tell? I mean, I haven't sat here
and tried to listen. Hey, do you guys have a even balance on movie plot or true crime? So I don't know what gives you
inspiration.
Yeah, that can be tricky on my end, because I really try to have no pattern because I don't want someone to think last week was
true crime. So this week is a movie. So we kind of try to throw in some other types of episodes where it'll be true crime
only or movie plot only like I did with our Freddy Krueger series or episode. But really, it's about what story could I
tell in a narrative fiction style? Because not all movies or true crime stories really lend themselves to that. So I just try to
think how can I spin this? So I'm true to the filmmakers and but also true to the victims if it's a true case, and just kind
of what can I tell in a smooth way. And that's kind of where I get that it just has to click for me inspiration wise in my
brain.
Well, you're a great storyteller.
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
Who would be your dream guest on your podcast if you were to have anybody?
That's so Oh, man. That's a tough one for me to think about. My dream guest would honestly be anyone who authentically came
across our show and just organically appreciates it.
Oh, wow. So you're talking about appreciating your listeners.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it would just be someone who just enjoys what we're putting out into the world and who would really be
into hearing what I have to say and just be engaged in the mystery of it all. That to me would be my dream guest and maybe we'll
get there one day.
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you just had I just listened to one of your most recent episodes and you had an intern on so it's always
nice to have neighbors that are willing to join in for sure.
Yeah, we tell her she's our intern.
All right. Do you listen to your own episodes?
Oh, 100%. I do. And we're such dorks because Joanna says the same thing. I'll listen back to something we did a while ago. And I just
start laughing out loud at our stupid jokes. Like if it's happening right now. But I do. Do you?
I do. But I wait because I do all the editing. So I'd probably listen. I don't know, probably at least four times before it even
airs because I'm editing but then you don't really get the concept of the true storyline if you're just listening for all the
editing that you have to do. But I do wait probably a month or two. I'm a binge listener to everything I listen to. And with that,
then I can go back and say, Oh, gosh, we did a really good job on that. That was a really good story. I need to do more of that. Yes.
And then I can also kind of say, Oh, wow, maybe I don't need to do that next time.
Yeah, I like to listen back to see the growth and the sound quality, of course, with editing it to also just see, was this
enjoyable? Was it not? Where can we go from here? All those things.
Yeah, this is a great way, a great segue to your teaser in just a couple minutes, because for our listeners, you will get a
teaser of live laugh murder. And I'll try to fill in a little bit for Joanna today. But if you could describe your
communication style, what would that be?
I think Joanna and I, we really have a way of trying to see the lighter side of things in our friendship and in our show, even in
difficult times, or telling difficult stories, we're very similar in that we can have the hard conversations, but we just try
to throw in joy whenever we can. And it's not always easy to be that way. But she really balances me out in that. And I think I do
the same for her. We just have an adoration for each other, you know, and if Joanna has to tell me a hard truth, I know it's
coming from an honest place and a real place. And then she's going to make me laugh after. And you know,
the chemistry.
Yeah. And I hope that translates to our show kind of our relationship and our bond. And it's a sensitive topic when you're
talking about something horrific, and then to try to make it lighter. But that's honestly how we are in our lives as well.
Because going through hard times, you know, over time that if you can laugh, take that opportunity. If you can smile, take that
opportunity. So with she and I, we have that in common very much where we just try to bring a little bit of joy and laughter
whenever we can.
Yeah, and statistically, they say that when you laugh, you do live longer. So you know, you get a plus there. Oh, well, there
you go. Yeah. So where can we find you online?
We're on the major platforms, Spotify, Apple, just got on Stitcher, Amazon Music, all of those. And if you're so inclined, you
can check out our Instagram at live laugh murder podcast.
Great. I think that we can go ahead and transition to my little story today. I do like to start my episodes off with a
question if you're ready to go. What I like to do on Dying to be Found is I kind of set up the stage with a question. And so my
question to you, Carmen is have you ever had a DNA test?
No, I don't believe I have. Have you?
I have. So ancestry.com sponsor me. Just kidding. Or maybe not.
Do it.
Yeah, so I actually did that. I got it for a birthday present a couple years ago. And the cool thing is, is that my dad was a
really big historian before technology came along. He put a family tree booklet together for me a binder and oh my gosh,
Carmen is so cool because it's really taken us back. I can go back to my family line to the 1800s now.
Really?
Yeah, because of what he gave me as his hobby when he was doing all this and put this together for me. And then the
genealogy website has pretty much done the rest. So I think that's really, really cool.
That's cool.
And Beth and I really talk a lot about familial DNA. I really do think that it's going to play a huge part in the dash this season.
So I thought that today I would talk to you about a case. I don't know if you heard on the news just a couple months ago, it's a
story that broke about Melissa Suzanne Highsmith. Have you heard that one?
Not the name off the top of my head, but I do know that familial DNA is causing many people to get caught that thought they got away with crimes.
You know, bravo to the authorities who are able to piece all that together because to me, I personally have to give victims names and
things like that. If you've heard my episodes enough to know that familial DNA is really, really changing things.
After 2000, I haven't seen as many of these people that get away with crimes as long, but yeah, as in recent years, it's really becoming a thing, which I just can't say enough about.
It's really awesome.
I might get a little emotional here because I'm already feeling it, but thank you for the warning.
Yeah, I know. It's just, I mean, I get goosebumps and I just, this is a happy ending today and I just love that. So that's why I wanted to report it.
Melissa Suzanne Highsmith was found by her family or I mean, maybe she found, but Melissa found her family after 51 years by using one of those genealogy websites.
Isn't that amazing? I already have goosebumps.
Wow.
I know. She was only 21 months old when she was abducted from her home in Fort Worth, Texas back on August 23rd, 1971.
So yeah, she was gone for quite some time.
For consistency, I am going to use Melissa as her name throughout our conversation.
Okay.
Because the person who abducted her, she ended up changing her name to Melanie while she was growing up.
Wow.
And of course, Melissa plans to change her name back to Melissa, which when I was looking at this research, I was kind of thinking about this and I can imagine it could be as difficult as fixing identity theft,
because what happened to her original birth certificate? Is it still active? Was there a flag put on it?
What about her Melanie birth certificate? There's so many questions I have about how that would work.
Wow. Is there a Melanie birth certificate that was forged? That's where my brain goes. Oh my gosh. Okay.
Yeah. I mean, I think there would have to be because if she was ever schooled, you'd have to produce that.
Correct.
So much, but if any of our listeners have anything to add to this, by all means, write in or DM me on Instagram and we'd love to know that process.
So I'm going to talk about the abduction.
And back in 1971, a single mother named Alta Apentenko placed an ad in a local newspaper looking to hire a babysitter for her 21-month-old child, Melissa.
Ruth Johnson, and I say that in air quotes, answered this ad. She seemed to say all the right things to Alta,
because I don't know what it was like for you, Carmen, when you had small children.
When I became a first-time parent, it was really difficult to line up that first babysitter because I didn't know what questions to ask. Nobody has a manual on this.
Oh, it's the hardest thing. It's very difficult. My daughters are 8 and 12,
and I can remember yesterday meeting the first babysitter for the first time, and it was very nerve-racking.
It was, and I'll tell you, I didn't even like my first babysitter. I think that she lasted maybe a month or two.
You know, you just get those vibes, feelings, whatever. My second babysitter was wonderful, but yeah, you just don't know what questions to ask.
But Ruth did mention that she had a nice big yard for Melissa to play in, and she watched other children as well.
So she had her home daycare in the 70s when what? Most parents stay home?
In the 70s. Yeah, right. A lot of women, right?
Mm-hmm. But I mean, to me, that sounds reasonable because I'm just thinking back to my experiences as a young mother.
Okay.
I mean, it's a start anyway, at least she's saying that she's got a good environment, but apparently the interview went really well, and Alta hired Ruth on the spot for the job.
Wow.
Alta provided Ruth with her home address and made arrangements for her to come and pick up baby Melissa on August 23rd, 1971.
Now, Alta, because she was a single mother, she worked as a waitress, and she had already left for work when Melissa got picked up.
But Alta's roommate was there to greet Ruth, who handed Melissa over with the usual things, a diaper bag, with whatever items you need for the day.
Mm-hmm.
But there was one little detail missing.
Neither Alta nor the roommate exchanged phone numbers or home addresses with Ruth before she left with Melissa.
Okay.
I don't get it.
I know. There are so many questions.
All I could think of is that, again, you don't know what questions to ask.
I think, me personally, I feel like it was an honest mistake because maybe Alta was assuming that her roommate would get that information or the roommate assumed that that information was already taken in.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, there are so many what-ifs here.
That's how five minutes can change your whole life.
Oh, gosh, yes.
Well, when the time came for Melissa to be returned home for the day, it never happened.
That, to me, has got to be the most horrifying thing as a single mother, as a mother, knowing that your child has not come home.
Yep.
But when Alta's roommate was questioned later, she described Melissa's abductor as a well-dressed woman who wore white gloves.
And I'm thinking back in the 70s, I mean, okay.
She believed it could have either been a woman or maybe a man disguised as a woman.
I mean, I'm thinking Mrs. Doubtfire, I don't know if she wore gloves to hide the hairy hands.
I kind of get that.
Mm-hmm.
Alta eventually went on with her life and had another four children.
Wow.
Which is amazing.
It is.
It's so sad.
It is sad.
Well, this is the cool thing about that is that Alta made sure each and every one of her four children knew that they had a sister out there somewhere.
Mm-hmm.
You have to.
Oh, my gosh.
My goosebumps are upon goosebumps right now.
I know.
As you're talking, I feel like I saw, and you said this was recent, a video clip of a reunion.
Very.
Okay.
Yes.
That's probably the one you're thinking about.
Okay.
Because it was really just recently on the news.
Over the years, Alta's family posted information about Melissa's abduction on social media and even submitted to DNA testing to no avail.
So I believe that they went through the authorities' DNA testing, but they also submitted to one of those genealogical websites like I have.
Okay.
Sketches of the kidnapper were drawn up, but police hit dead ends everywhere they looked, so that did not come to fruition for them.
The police even did one of those age progressions where they develop a photo of what Melissa could look like as an adult.
Okay.
Carmen, the age progression looks nothing like her.
Oh, my God.
I always wonder about that too.
Is it even?
I will say this.
With the dash, I'm actually doing a lot of these solved abduction cases where they do have the age progression, and this is the second time I've seen that the victim does not look anything.
Wow.
You know, you've got that to look at, which is great because you think that it's going to be helpful, but then I feel, am I looking for the wrong person?
Am I passing the real victim on the street when I'm really looking for someone else?
Right, right.
And how do you even really know?
Yeah, I'd have to look at the statistics to see.
I don't know if there's a good outcome as far as those pictures.
I have no idea.
That'd be interesting to talk about.
Yeah, that'd be an interesting deep dive to kind of look into.
How sad.
How sad for those other four, sorry, those other children.
And I always wonder, yeah, I always wonder about how was their upbringing?
What was that like for them, for the other children?
Was Ulta super protective?
Did she let them go anywhere?
Or, you know, once you lose a child like that, it's so hard.
Yeah, double-edged sword for sure.
I've never been in that situation and I couldn't even imagine, but there's just so many different ways that people react.
Or, you know, in a survival mode, there's just so many, so many what ifs.
And just to know that the child is missing, you have no closure.
Oh my gosh.
Okay, okay, keep going, keep going.
I need to hear more.
I need the rest.
All right.
Well, along with the DNA genealogy service that the family submitted to, they also put out identifiers on social media,
like a birthmark that Melissa had on her neck.
But obviously for the next 50 years, nothing really came of that until the day of discovery.
So here comes the good news.
For over 50 years, Melissa was raised by a woman whom she thought was her mother, and she was raised under the name of Melanie Walden.
Wow.
Melissa and Melanie right now for the purpose of this very instant conversation, they're the same person.
And Melissa's real siblings had taken that genealogy test through 23andMe.
Melissa had done the same thing very recently, as in 2022.
Wow.
It gets better.
Okay.
Only three weeks had passed between the time that Melissa took the DNA test and the time that she received her results.
And I'm going to say that's accurate because I've taken that DNA test before.
And this is when Melissa came to the realization that her true identity lay somewhere else.
Oh my gosh.
Can I ask a question?
Absolutely.
The woman who raised her, was she still alive?
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
And the cool thing is, is that Melissa confronted her.
I'm just going to call her Ruth Johnson because I do not know her real name.
Okay.
She did not deny that Melissa Suzanne Highsmith was Melissa and not Melanie.
Okay.
But she had a story to tell with it.
Let me get cozy.
I'm ready.
Ruth told Melissa that she had bought her as a toddler for the low, low price of $500.
What?
In 1971 now.
So today's equivalent would be over $3,500 in today's currency.
What?
Yeah.
What do you think of that?
Okay.
Well, is it true?
Is that what happened?
Well, I don't know.
That's the mystery.
But I think that at this point, that's a he said, she said situation.
We'll never know.
Oh, okay.
I mean, if there were no adoption papers filed, you know, to show that Ruth adopted her.
Okay.
True.
Look, we could go around all day long if it was a cash transaction.
Who knows?
I know.
Exactly.
Here's the kicker now.
Melissa was raised less than 20 minutes away from Alta for her entire life.
You're kidding me.
Isn't that bizarre?
Again, this is not the first time I've heard this.
They don't go far from home, which is crazy.
This is, that's wild.
It is.
Well, according to Melissa, her upbringing with Ruth was a little tumultuous.
Okay.
And she never really felt loved by Ruth Johnson, who we know now that Melissa called mother.
During an interview, Melissa even said that at one point she had run away from home at the age of 15.
Wow.
So she was unhappy.
Yeah, that's sad.
I guess I have that question too.
Why would Ruth have even taken her in the first place and kept her if she was not going to be the seemingly good mother that she wanted to be?
Yeah.
Well, I'm sure there's some psychological things going on there.
But that, oh God.
Okay.
So we're going to talk about that reuniting that you had mentioned a couple of minutes ago.
Melissa did reunite with both of her biological parents and her four siblings in November, 2022.
Wow.
And of course she was elated that she found her true identity.
And I'm telling you right now, I feel I'm welling up a little bit because I love this happy ending.
I'm getting goosebumps.
But I mean, that's just so, what a wonderful, wonderful ending to this.
I cannot imagine what that had to feel like to find out.
You have all these siblings.
You have a mother.
Ruth is not your mom and the devastation there, but then the joy and like your birth mother is still alive and you can meet her.
Oh, that just right there gets me.
Oh yeah.
Well, Melissa plans to change her legal name from Melanie back to Melissa.
And she also connected with extended family, including one sister who now lives in Spain.
Wow.
So this is her reuniting here has really gone viral, which is so cool.
Yeah.
I saw that video and I didn't realize when you started, this was that clip of them seeing each other for the first time.
Amazing.
Oh yeah.
Well, let's not forget about Ruth Johnson.
Oh yeah.
Tell me spill.
All right.
So I found out some conflicting information on the statutes of limitations here because apparently in today's US law,
there's no limitations on kidnapping cases.
From what I found in this case, there was a statute of limitations that expired in 2007.
You have to go with the time of the crime, right?
I think so.
Yeah.
If the crime was in the seventies, they have to follow the law from the seven.
I don't know.
It's true.
All right.
I'm so anxious.
Again, I would love if one of our listeners could DM me and let me know how that works.
Absolutely.
Yes, please.
Ultimately, Ruth Johnson will likely never face charges for Melissa's abduction.
What?
Yep.
What?
All right.
She's just living her life.
Yep, she is.
No repercussions.
Wow.
So in a nutshell, I'm done.
That is my story.
Melissa Highsmith.
Wow.
Oh my gosh.
So there you go.
Oh, you got me on that one.
Wow, Deb.
That's just so devastating, but so exciting, but just so horrific.
And Ruth, I'm mad at her.
Yeah.
How can she face no consequences?
You said there could be a lot more going in.
Mental health could be an issue and things like that.
But if she took her in the first place, who knows?
I can't speculate on any of this.
I'm just so happy for Melissa and her family.
And that is what I want to do here with the Dash is just to give some good news
because our regular episodes are not always warm and fuzzy like this.
Yes.
So I'm going to do a little bit more of this.
Yes.
Well, I really hope that they can go on to find some unity
and a family bonding there.
And I hope that Melissa can just really find some joy out of this.
How sad.
But what a great, great realization, and that her mother is still with her
and she can spend time with her now with Alta.
That's what's cool.
And her siblings.
Absolutely.
That's I mean, every day is just a wake up day to a new world.
That's just so amazing.
Yeah.
I have a question about the DNA.
Yeah.
All of my grandparents were born in Puerto Rico.
So I've heard that those genealogy tests are not always accurate
because of all the people that, you know, 100 years ago came to Puerto Rico
and there were a lot of falsified documents, fake names, a lot of it was very
transient island for a long time.
So I've heard that the DNA tests, if you're from that area or Puerto Rican,
it's not as easy to, I don't know, and I don't know if that's true, but I guess,
you know, to your point, it doesn't matter to find your ancestors.
Like in Melissa's point, it mattered that she found siblings
and family that also did the test.
So I guess it's two different things.
Yeah.
Maybe a certain percentage of accuracy.
And I will tell you this.
I mentioned that my dad put together that family tree for me
and the genealogy website did the rest.
Now I had a cousin and I feel like he is a great person.
I feel like he is maybe my second cousin.
I had a cousin from Toronto get in touch with me because, you know,
I'm originally from Canada, but he contacted me about two years ago.
And the cool thing is, is that he at some point in time said,
hey, I have somebody who met your dad and gave them a ton of information
about the family line.
He sent all that to me.
It's my dad's handwriting.
It's duplicates to some of the stuff that I already had.
So I'm going to say there's got to be some accuracy to the DNA testing
that you have, but then again, I mean, like you said,
just depending on the era, the times and what was going on,
I'm sure that you could dig into it.
Oh, yeah.
I think the genealogy could be from what I've heard in the past.
And it's probably improved since when I looked into doing this years ago.
But maybe the genealogy aspect might not be what, you know,
a lot of people would find, but maybe the finding your family members
that would probably be more accurate for someone like me.
I don't know, though. I could be wrong.
So last thought on this is that I know that the authorities
have their own testing sites.
I'm sure that their technology or whatever they use is probably
a little bit more technical or sophisticated.
That's exciting.
And it's just going to keep getting better and better
with that genealogy testing.
I love that.
I love that too.
All right.
So I just want to let our listeners know that there will be
no teachable moment on the dash.
But Carmen, you mentioned to me that you have a little story
to give us a small taste of your podcast.
I do.
I'm a little nervous about this because I told you my track record
is not great.
So I will hand you the floor.
OK, so you and Joanna.
Yeah.
All right. Awesome.
Well, thank you, first of all, for letting me kind of share
a little snippet of what we do on our podcast.
And I really appreciate you being open to that.
So thank you, Deb.
That's awesome.
Sure.
All right, so you are my counterpart today.
And I'm going to mention my co-host a couple of times here.
But Joanna and I, we live in Florida.
And she knew, which funnily enough, when we had our call,
she called it that you were from Canada because she's
from northern Michigan.
And she said, I can hear it in her voice.
So I thought that was funny.
Anywho, we live in Florida.
And I thought I'd give you a Florida tale.
OK.
And again, this could be the facts of a true crime
case or the plot of a horror movie.
But I won't reveal it to you until near the end.
OK.
I've got a little mini, mini story.
So for my mini story, we're in Florida in the time
when cell phones were first becoming a thing.
I want you to imagine a beautiful Palm Beach community.
Palm trees line the streets.
The sun is shining.
And a woman named Marlene has just
made breakfast for her best friend and her adult son,
Joe, and herself.
Upon hearing a knock at the door, Marlene goes to answer it.
So I hope you can imagine this kind
of morning scene in your brain.
I can.
To her surprise, when she opens the door,
she sees a clown holding carnation flowers
and balloons where one says, you're the greatest.
And the other is a snow white balloon.
Now, when I say clown, I'm talking orange wig, white face
paint, big red nose, the whole thing.
What time of the day was this?
Morning time.
OK.
In the morning, breakfast time.
Marlene thinks, OK, you know, this is weird.
But she reaches out and says, oh, how pretty
and instinctively reaches for the flowers.
As she is grabbing the flowers, the clown
reaches behind their back, pulls out a revolver,
extends it to Marlene, and shoots her in her mouth.
Wow.
It's awful.
The clown drops the balloons and flowers,
turns away, and calmly walks to their white convertible
in the gorgeous town of Palm Beach, Florida,
and drives away.
Just calmly walks away?
Yes.
Calmly walks away.
Gets in their convertible, and that's it.
Wow.
Meanwhile, Joe, Marlene's son, who's still in the kitchen,
but kind of eating breakfast and kind
of watching this interaction, you know, when the gun goes off,
Joe's first thought is that one of the balloons
must have popped.
It didn't take him long to realize
that what had just happened to his mother
was that she was shot.
Oh.
Joe's first impulse is to chase after
who just did this to his mom.
He's her adult son.
Unfortunately, though, Joe currently has a broken leg.
And even though he goes to drive off after the maniacal clown,
he basically just can't.
He can't run to his car fast enough.
He can't put it in gear fast enough,
and it's a nightmare.
That's going to be horrifying.
Marlene is taken to the hospital,
and she later dies of her gunshot wound a few days later.
Oh, gosh.
Now, the investigation begins on who would do this.
And the first thought is the husband.
There was a husband, and the husband always did it, right?
That's what they say.
Oh, yeah.
They always have to look at the ones closest to you.
Exactly.
And who wasn't at the home during this incident,
during this crime?
Now, I want to talk for a second about Marlene
and her husband, Michael.
They've been going through a hard time in their marriage
and going back and forth over a possible separation
for whatever reasons.
And their situation is difficult because they've
got a lot of money and assets.
So that makes things tricky.
They own businesses together, and a lot of the things
are in Marlene's name.
And who knows why the divorce hasn't happened,
the separation.
That's kind of the main reason of what's making it sticky.
Marlene, on the other hand, is feeling like a separation
might be good for them during this time, no matter what.
I mean, it's going to favor her financially anyway.
And I want to mention that Michael himself
has a whole other apartment that he's been renting nearby.
OK, so they're truly separated.
Mm-hmm.
There's some, yes.
Michael, though, has an alibi for the time of the shooting
going off, having been off on a boy's trip
during this brutal attack by the psycho clown.
So he's off the hook in the investigator's eyes.
Mm.
So now I want to take you to a different scene
for you to imagine.
We're going to switch it here.
I want you to picture the point of view of the clown.
Who are they?
Why are they doing this?
And what do they have to gain?
Kind of think about that.
So imagine you're working, different point of view here.
Imagine you're working at a costume shop, U-Deb,
like Party City or Spirit Halloween, right?
Sure.
And you're about to close for the night
when a woman bursts through the doors
begging to be let in to your shop.
Imagine you as the employee say, we're closed.
You know, come back tomorrow.
But this dark-haired young woman is so adamant, pleading,
saying, please, I need to buy something right now.
Oh, wow.
For whatever reason, you're tired.
You're done with your day.
But you decide to just let her get what she needs
so she'll go away and you can go home for the night.
You see this frenzied woman go over to the clown costumes
and she makes her purchase.
And you go about your evening closing up shop.
But the moment kind of sticks with you as this employee.
It's strange.
You tell your friends about it, you know, the crazy lady
who made you close up late.
Yeah, that's creepy in itself.
Oh, it's very creepy, right?
Then a couple days later, you're home, you know,
you the employee, and you see on the news
that a person dressed in the same clown costume
you just sold has just murdered someone at their front door.
Wow.
So what do you do as the employee?
You call the cops instantly.
Yeah, I would definitely call the cops.
Oh, 100%.
So who is this woman in the clown costume?
Why did she do this?
What's her connection to Marlene?
And I'm going to tell you that after you tell me
if you think this is a horror movie plot.
Or a true crime case.
I hate this part.
Actually, I love this part.
I hate this part.
It's a love hate relationship, Carmen.
It really is.
It is.
Oh, gosh.
OK, let me think because morning time, flowers.
Did you tell me what the reason for the flowers were?
I did not.
I don't remember you telling me.
OK, so she just randomly got some flowers
in the morning.
Do you know if it was her birthday?
I believe it was not her birthday.
It was just a regular old day.
OK.
OK, I'm just going to say I think I'm second guessing myself
because I told you I don't have a good track record
with your podcast.
I'm going to go with true crime.
Oh, goodness.
And you're correct.
It is.
Yay.
I'm applauding you.
Good job.
Wow.
Oh, my gosh.
That's horrible.
It's awful.
And I have a few more details I want to share with you
if that's OK.
Oh, yeah.
It's awful.
And it is the very real story of the shooting of Marlene Warren
that happened in 1990.
Now, I'm summing up.
I could go on.
We could go on an hour talking about this.
But I've just cut my details down.
So it's just a mini story for you.
I'm going to give you just the summation.
Yeah.
All right, you ready for it?
Facts of the case.
Yep, I am ready.
So remember I said that Marlene's husband, Michael,
was renting an apartment?
Yes.
He wasn't living there alone.
Wow.
He was staying with his 20-something-year-old
dark-haired girlfriend, Sheila Keene,
who was also Michael and Marlene's employee
at the car dealership that they owned together.
Oh, my gosh.
Police were able to track the balloons back
to the local publics in the area because they
were so specific.
Wow.
Oh, OK.
Crooks are stupid.
Mm-hmm.
And the.38 revolver that shot Marlene matched one
that Sheila owned or had in her possession, let me say.
They had the story from the costume shop owner or employee.
They found the white convertible abandoned in a parking lot.
They even found an orange wig fibers in her home
after a warrant search.
Wow.
But because it was all circumstantial evidence
and because it was 1990 and DNA wasn't what it is today,
they couldn't arrest Marlene without a shadow of a doubt.
Are you kidding me?
And in case you're wondering, Michael, her husband,
was in on this.
I mean, we would assume, too, allegedly.
Was there life insurance involved?
I cut a lot of the details out, but they
owned over a million dollars in assets
together, Michael and Marlene.
There was a lot of money to be had,
and unfortunately, he had a lot of financial gain
after her death because he was never charged.
And it really, I wasn't going to mention this,
but you asked, and I'm going to throw it in quickly.
Her son, Joe, unfortunately, suffered a lot financially.
He wasn't able to get the assets,
and his dad really just screwed him over
in every possible way.
So the husband put his 20-something girlfriend
up to this.
Oh, yeah.
So this isn't the end.
I got a couple more things.
So it would take decades, decades.
Sheila and Michael, they actually went on to marry.
They opened a restaurant and later retired.
And then on a day in 2017, almost 30 years
after the murder, Sheila, thinking life's great,
got pulled over on the way to visit her mother,
I think in Virginia or somewhere around there.
This wasn't a normal traffic stop.
A confused Sheila was immediately arrested
on the side of the road for first-degree murder.
Cold case investigators in Florida
had never stopped working on Marlene's case.
They'd pick it up, put it down, pick it up, put it down.
It's wild.
They were now able to use current technology
and DNA testing because they had the orange wig fibers
and they had collections of Sheila's hair
all saved and preserved,
and they were able to make a connection and a match.
So this led to her lock up
and throw away the key type of conviction.
They had it, lock and key.
Okay, that goes along the lines of our Dash story today
with familial or genealogical.
Oh, my goodness.
I didn't even put that together.
Oh, my goodness.
It was all in the stars for us, Deb.
It was.
Since this crime occurred in Florida,
prosecutors initially were seeking the death penalty,
but things changed a little
as prosecutors changed hands multiple times since 2017.
And with COVID happening and all of that,
a lot of things got delayed.
So as recently as October 2022,
Sheila was denied release on bond until her trial,
which was supposed to happen.
It's now still postponed at the time of this recording.
Wow.
Yep, for the seventh time, might I add,
postponed her trial.
Wow, that's crazy.
Yep, from what I've seen,
it's yet to be rescheduled.
And then one last thing,
I'll just end with Joe Warren, Marlene's son.
He was very happy to know
that his mother's shooter was in custody.
And he, like I said, he was put through a lot.
He suffered a lot.
Yeah, poor kid.
I mean, that's a lifelong trauma there.
Oh, absolutely.
And a quote from Joe to kind of end it here.
He said, my mom was an angel.
We were best friends.
Oh, I know.
Doesn't that just get you?
Yeah, I'm so glad that he,
I don't think there's ever a real closure,
but at least he got what he needed.
And that's the bittersweet.
Right.
Gosh, Carmen, you did amazing.
Oh, well, if you enjoyed that, listeners,
check us out at Live, Laugh, Murder Podcast.
And we are true crime sometimes.
Sometimes.
That's what we like to say.
Just like your logo says.
Exactly.
So that, in a nutshell,
is a sample of what you'll get
when you go to Live, Laugh, Murder.
And Carmen, I want to thank you so much
for helping me on The Dash today.
Yes.
Be sure to check us out every week
on The Dash and Dying to be Found.
And go check out Live, Laugh, Murder
on their socials, like right now,
because we're about to end this podcast
and you should do that
while you're thinking about it.
Yeah.
Thanks, Carmen, so much.
I appreciate this.
Thank you so much for having me on.
It's just this has been wonderful
and you're amazing.
I love your show.
I love you.
You're great.
This is great.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
All right.
We will talk to you soon.
Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found,
True Crime Podcast in our Dash mini series.
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We'll be dashing every Wednesday
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plus every Thursday
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Thanks again, everyone,
and we'll talk to you soon.