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Hi guys, throughout season 2 I've talked to family members, indie podcasters, and even

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went solo for a couple of episodes.

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Well, today's episode is going to be a little bit different.

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You all know I'm used to being in the driver's seat, which I still get to do in today's

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episode, but I also wanted to get on the opposite side of the mic with Beth from True Crime

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B&B who invited me to be one of her guests on her own indie podcast.

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So get ready to listen to some amazing storytelling where I tell the story of a bad guy and Beth

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lifts us up to tell a tale of strength and survival.

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And if you're not already listening to True Crime B&B, be sure to head on over there.

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But in the meantime, enjoy.

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Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found.

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Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions

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on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.

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Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this

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podcast.

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So listener discretion is strongly advised.

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Hello everybody, welcome back.

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This is episode 82 at the True Crime B&B.

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This is Beth and today I have a wonderful podcaster joining me.

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This is Deb from Dying to be Found.

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Deb is probably already on your playlist, but if not, you're going to want to after

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you hear her tell her story today.

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So Deb, please tell us a little bit about yourself and your podcast.

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Hi Beth, I am so excited to be here.

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Thank you so much for inviting me.

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Dying to be Found is what I like to say open to the interpretation of our listeners because

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we are a true crime podcast, but it's not always about the high profile with an exception

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today because I am doing a high profile today, but it's really true crime.

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It can be anything from poachers.

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I've talked about other things that are true crime related, but not necessarily what you

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expect to hear.

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So if you guys get a chance, check it out, but you will certainly get to learn my style

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today as we talk because I'm probably going to be going along the lines of how I usually

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do my podcast.

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So yeah, check it out.

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Well, that's the hope because I want people to hear who you are so that then they can

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go get more of you.

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Awesome.

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Thanks so much.

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So that's kind of the goal.

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And I think we're similar in that I also like to normally pick low profile cases that haven't

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gotten a lot of attention or maybe they happened 30 or 40 years ago and really people have

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kind of forgotten about them and I don't want those people to be forgotten.

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So when I find them, I like to bring them back for a little while.

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So people are thinking about them.

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Absolutely.

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I actually have two podcasts, one is called Dying to be Found and the other one is Dying

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to be Found the Dash.

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And on the dash, I find those older cases where DNA has been able to pick up on something

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that went cold for quite a long period of time.

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And I love those endings where we finally have the answers.

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Yeah.

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And it's been very satisfying the last few years, old maddening cases.

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It must have been agony for these families for decades to not know what happened to their

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loved one or their husband or their child.

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I can't even imagine.

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Yes.

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You offered to be our bad guy today.

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So what are you bringing to us today?

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Okay, so this is an interesting one.

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When you asked me to come on and I wanted to be the bad guy, I was really thinking what

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direction did I want to go here?

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What I like to do is I start off with a question.

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So I want to ask you, Beth, what do you know about fantasy football?

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I was in a fantasy football league for a few years, but that was probably 20 years ago.

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So I don't really know that much about it anymore.

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I know it was fun.

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It made it a lot more interesting to follow the football stats and it made some games

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that I normally wouldn't watch because I didn't have any vested interest in that team.

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It made those games more interesting for me to watch.

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That's about all I know.

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Okay.

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I don't know much, but over the Labor Day weekend, I had gone to go visit my family

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in Mississippi and they said, hey, we need an extra person on our fantasy football league.

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Yeah, I jumped in, don't know anything about it.

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I let the fantasy football league draft everybody for me and truly Beth, I did nothing for three

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weeks and right now I'm five in one.

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I'm doing really good.

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I think I have beginner's luck.

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Did you pick players or just teams?

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I let ESPN do all the picking for me.

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Okay.

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But it's fun.

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It actually is a nice little pastime.

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Yeah.

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It makes it more fun to watch the football games.

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Yeah, for sure.

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I bring this up because we are going to be talking about an NFL player today.

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Okay.

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That is Aaron Joseph Hernandez.

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Oh yeah.

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I don't know if you've heard of him.

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Oh, I have.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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Aaron rose to fame back in 2013 when he landed a $40 million contract to play for the New

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England Patriots as a tight end.

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We're talking about Aaron today.

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I want to start by giving a brief history of Aaron's high school years.

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Back in 2006, he was a very talented local football player at Bristol Central High School

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located in Bristol, Connecticut.

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Unfortunately, Aaron had lost his father while he was in high school and he did not take

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that death very well because according to family members, he immediately began showing

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disturbing signs of a troubled youth.

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And I get that Beth.

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I mean, that's a tough age as it is, but losing a father when you're that young, I know it's

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going to be devastating.

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Yeah.

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I would think that that's true, especially, I don't know, I think a lot of high school

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football players, a lot of that is dad driven.

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You know, their dad wants them to do this.

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They want to make their dad proud.

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It's a dad and son thing they do together.

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Yes.

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So yeah, that had to be really rough.

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Absolutely.

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Well, simply put, although Aaron was that shining star in the public eye and on the

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football field, he was beginning to be very angry on the inside.

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He began acting out when he wasn't on the playing field.

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Aaron began doing illegal drugs and associated himself with the rough crowd around town.

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And some say that he was associating himself with gang members.

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Okay.

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Although he was struggling with personal issues, Aaron managed to get accepted into the University

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of Florida after graduating high school.

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That's awesome.

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So he moved from Connecticut down south, which I think he was hoping to start things off

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with a clean slate.

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You know, he's getting in trouble in his town.

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He wants to go somewhere new.

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I understand that.

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Absolutely.

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Sure.

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But that was not the case because in 2007, shortly after Aaron settled into Gainesville,

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Florida, he was arrested during a bar room brawl.

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And I think this had something as simple to do, Beth, with a spill drink.

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Of course, he's angry, he's acting out, there's alcohol involved.

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Do you think that he was the one who started the brawl or was he like kind of looped into

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it by somebody else?

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Pretty sure that he was the one that started it.

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I can't say for sure from the articles that I read.

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I don't think he was looped into anything.

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Okay.

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I just wasn't sure if he spilled the drink on somebody or somebody spilled it on him.

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That's a great question.

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Regardless.

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Anyway.

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Well, Aaron was also questioned in a double shooting that same year, but he never faced

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charges for that.

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And this is where I say, Beth, new place, same face.

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And for those of you who don't know, I'm a teacher for a living.

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I see students that, you know, again, that's a tough year, but I always tell them when

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you guys move to a new town, you will always seek out who you know, you are who you associate

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with.

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So I'm feeling like this is the direction that Aaron had gone.

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He was just seeking out the same people in a different place.

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Yeah.

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He probably wasn't going down there thinking that he was going to be a whole new guy.

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He was probably thinking that his past sense will be forgotten and he could just start

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over again.

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Yeah.

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And nobody be watching him too hard yet.

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Oh yes.

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So true.

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Well, although Aaron started out with a rough beginning, he seemed to settle down and lay

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low after those couple of run ins with the law.

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No other occurrences took place that we know of after that for probably the next year or

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two.

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Aaron received a suspension from the Florida Gators because he failed a drug screen.

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But other than that, he seemed to have put his temper into check and he eventually tried

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out for the NFL draft in 2010.

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So I think that he skipped his senior year of university and went on to the NFL after

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that.

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I think that's amazing.

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Yeah.

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He was probably just hoping to get out of there before he got really busted though.

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Yes, probably so.

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And this is where things get a little tricky.

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Aaron seemed to have talent, but again, his reputation did not get past the NFL teams.

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So sort of like you say, things are starting to catch up with him.

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Many of the NFL owners voiced reservations on drafting Aaron, partly because of those

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failed drug screens, but also because there was talk that Aaron had been linked to gang

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activity back in his hometown of Bristol, Connecticut.

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Wow.

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Okay.

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So his actions are definitely following him.

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Things did work out in Aaron's favor because at the age of 20, the New England Patriots

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drafted him as a tight end in the fourth round.

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So he's playing an astounding first season with all sorts of stats that make no sense

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to me, but you get the point because he is on the Patriots team and they had made it

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to the Superbowl that year, earning Aaron a five year, $40 million contract that I spoke

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about at the beginning of our episode.

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Right.

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So seems like things are on the up and up, right?

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Or at least on their way up.

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Yeah.

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Maybe not the up and up.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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Between 2010 and 2013, Aaron seemed to have everything going for him, but this is really

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where his life seems to take a dark turn.

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Is this bad guy enough for you by the way?

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It's getting to be pretty bad guy.

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On June 13th, 2013, Aaron had a personal injury lawsuit filed against him.

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Apparently he had gotten into another argument with a man outside of strip club in Florida.

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Aaron had pulled out a gun and whether he intentionally pulled the trigger or not, the

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gun went off.

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Oh boy.

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Mm-hmm.

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Luckily though, the victim did live, but he was shot in the face and he lost an eye in

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this incident.

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So that is why he filed a personal injury lawsuit against Aaron.

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Wow.

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I don't think I knew that that was what the injury was.

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I sort of vaguely remembered that he had all kinds of people coming after him to get back

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at him for things that he had done to them, but oh my God.

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Yeah.

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To lose an eye over a fight outside of strip club is just, that's just grotesque.

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Yeah, it is, but fortunately I say he lived, thank goodness.

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Well a few days later on June 16th, 2013, Aaron was in North Attleboro, Massachusetts

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where apparently he had an off season home.

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So you know, football players tend to have different houses, different states.

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Aaron had texted one of his acquaintances, a man named Odin Lloyd, a former semi-professional

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football player.

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He wanted to just meet up with him.

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I believe Aaron's girlfriend at the time and Odin's girlfriend were sisters.

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So this is probably how they knew each other.

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And Aaron didn't get a response from his text for at least 30 minutes.

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And that's actually going to come into play in just a moment because Aaron didn't like

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that it took so long to receive a text reply.

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I mean, this is where I say, come on now, can you not just pick up the phone?

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What's up with that?

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If I won't respond to your text, I'm not going to answer your call either.

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Yeah, that's true.

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I mean, honestly today when you texted me, it took me 10 minutes because I don't always

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go to my phone.

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My phone's in the other room.

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I mean, things happen, you get busy.

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I'm not one of those people who expects an immediate response when I text somebody because

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I don't want people to think I'm going to immediately respond if they text to me.

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Life does not mean I'm sitting here staring at my phone all day waiting for it to go ding.

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True.

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We're not the right generation for that.

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No.

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Well, I did see the context of the texts and truly to me, Beth, they were a little sketchy.

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Let's just say they were not meeting up for beers.

246
00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,320
Maybe something a little harder.

247
00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:14,800
Was there a transaction involved or was this just a communal activity they were going to

248
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:15,800
do together?

249
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:16,800
Yeah.

250
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:19,360
It sounded to me that there might be some transactions involved.

251
00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:20,360
Yes.

252
00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:21,360
All right.

253
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:28,280
So, early morning hours of July 17th, Aaron and Odin agreed on a meeting spot, but everything

254
00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:35,080
else after that is pretty questionable because later that day, Odin Lloyd was found dead

255
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:40,360
in an industrial park located about one mile from Aaron's Massachusetts home.

256
00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:41,840
Oh, Aaron.

257
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:42,840
Yeah.

258
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:47,600
Investigators spent the next 10 days investigating Odin's death, getting search warrants and

259
00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:50,040
reviewing CCTV.

260
00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:57,400
Around 2.30 AM on June 17th, Aaron was seen on surveillance cameras leaving his home armed

261
00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,400
with a gun.

262
00:13:58,400 --> 00:13:59,400
Oh, geez.

263
00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,520
To me, I don't know.

264
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,160
It's 2.30 AM.

265
00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:05,200
Maybe he just wanted it for protection?

266
00:14:05,200 --> 00:14:09,440
I've left my house at 2.30 AM and I didn't go back in heat.

267
00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,440
Yeah.

268
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:11,440
Understandable.

269
00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:12,440
Absolutely.

270
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,920
Well, before he left, Aaron told someone inside the house that he simply couldn't trust anyone

271
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:18,920
anymore.

272
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:24,440
So, I'm just kind of telling you this because this sets Aaron's mood before he takes off

273
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:25,440
for the night.

274
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:26,440
Yeah.

275
00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,000
But I do want to backtrack for just a moment because I had mentioned that 30 minute time

276
00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,400
frame of not receiving that text.

277
00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:39,100
According to witnesses, this delay seemed to agitate Aaron a little bit.

278
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,840
It was not just annoying him, it agitated him.

279
00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:47,960
So by the time he had left the house to meet up with Odin, I think he was probably still

280
00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:52,800
recruiting over how long it took to receive that text because he wanted his merchandise

281
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:53,800
quickly.

282
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:54,800
Okay.

283
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:55,800
Yeah.

284
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:59,840
So he was already grouchy and he was getting grouchier by the minute.

285
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:04,880
Things may have taken a turning point when Aaron and Odin finally did meet up because

286
00:15:04,880 --> 00:15:11,840
prosecutors would later say that Aaron indeed was not agitated with that time delay.

287
00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:17,280
He was rather upset that Odin had been talking to the guy that Aaron had shot in the face

288
00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,520
at the nightclub just a few nights earlier.

289
00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,360
They were both at the nightclub talking and Aaron found out that Odin was talking to the

290
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,200
guy who got shot at the nightclub?

291
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:32,660
I feel like what happened here is obviously this man gets shot in the face.

292
00:15:32,660 --> 00:15:39,120
Only three days went by between the time that that occurred and then when Odin and Aaron

293
00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:40,120
meet up.

294
00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,340
So in that three day period, apparently they were in the same circle so they may have known

295
00:15:44,340 --> 00:15:45,340
each other.

296
00:15:45,340 --> 00:15:46,340
Okay.

297
00:15:46,340 --> 00:15:50,720
They were talking to the victim in that timeframe and then Aaron got wind of that.

298
00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:51,720
Okay.

299
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:52,720
Does that make sense?

300
00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:53,720
Yeah.

301
00:15:53,720 --> 00:15:54,720
He's like, stay out of my business.

302
00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:55,720
Yeah, absolutely.

303
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:56,720
All right.

304
00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,640
So nothing is really clear after that.

305
00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:04,000
Only Aaron knows what occurred between Odin and himself before Odin was killed.

306
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:05,000
Okay.

307
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:11,240
By June 26th, 2013, police seemed to have enough evidence that they needed on Aaron

308
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:16,080
Hernandez and he was arrested that day for Odin's murder.

309
00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:21,720
So this is where I say, once you're a high profile athlete, you know it's going to go

310
00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:23,400
straight to the news sources.

311
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,280
It's going to be all over the media.

312
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:29,440
So what do you think the NFL is going to do?

313
00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:35,320
They pretty much made up their mind that during this high profile investigation, if Aaron

314
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:41,640
would be arrested for the murder of Odin Lloyd, they would release him from the roster and

315
00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,240
that's pretty much what happened.

316
00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:44,240
Okay.

317
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,720
The NFL doesn't have a great track record with dealing with its athletes who have been

318
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:53,080
violent towards strangers or their wives or their families or whatever.

319
00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:54,080
So true.

320
00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:58,400
So I'm glad they actually made a hard line in the sand and said, okay, if they think

321
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,840
you killed somebody, that's got to stop.

322
00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:01,840
Yeah, absolutely.

323
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,200
And then I'm sure there's something in the contract as far as behavior.

324
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,840
You know, they're a public figure, so they have an image they're supposed to be portraying

325
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,020
in the public's eye, I suppose.

326
00:17:13,020 --> 00:17:14,260
So I mean, who knows?

327
00:17:14,260 --> 00:17:17,840
I don't see why they should have done anything different.

328
00:17:17,840 --> 00:17:21,200
Dropping him like a hot potato was probably the right choice.

329
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:23,720
No, I'm not saying they shouldn't have done it with him.

330
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,840
I'm saying that there are probably a lot of other athletes that also should have been

331
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,160
sanctioned in some way, but weren't.

332
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:30,420
Yes, absolutely.

333
00:17:30,420 --> 00:17:31,960
And I agree with you there.

334
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:32,960
Absolutely.

335
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,820
Well, Aaron was charged with five gun charges and first degree murder.

336
00:17:36,820 --> 00:17:42,800
He remained in jail close to a year awaiting his trial for the murder of Odin Lloyd.

337
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:50,120
However, on May 15th, 2014, two more charges were brought up against him.

338
00:17:50,120 --> 00:17:55,960
Apparently police had been working on two more homicide cases from 2012, and that was

339
00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,540
around the time that Aaron had been said to be hanging out with the wrong crowd.

340
00:18:00,540 --> 00:18:05,200
I don't think that he ever stopped hanging out with the wrong crowd, but...

341
00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,200
I think Aaron was the wrong crowd.

342
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,200
I think so.

343
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:09,200
Yeah.

344
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,400
If he's going to be a leader, it's going to be with the wrong people, right?

345
00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:21,600
So, back in 2012, Daniel DeAbró and Sefirro Furtado were killed outside a nightclub in

346
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,040
South Boston.

347
00:18:23,040 --> 00:18:27,120
Aaron Hernandez happened to be in town when these murders occurred.

348
00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:32,680
Obviously, investigators did their homework here just as well, and they believe that none

349
00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,440
of the parties really knew each other.

350
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,280
Everything happens in the nightclubs, Beth.

351
00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:44,600
What police do know is that Daniel and Sefirro had left the club and were driving down the

352
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:49,760
streets of Boston when a car pulled up at a red light and opened fire.

353
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:54,560
Aaron Hernandez was in that car, and both men died on the scene.

354
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:55,560
Oh, wow.

355
00:18:55,560 --> 00:19:00,320
Now, when you first said that these two men were shot outside of a nightclub and Aaron

356
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,240
Hernandez happened to be in town, I thought, well, that's a little bit dodgy to make that

357
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,240
connection.

358
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,960
Okay, if he was actually in that car, okay, now that connection is becoming pretty solid.

359
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:10,960
Yeah, absolutely.

360
00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:16,280
So, Aaron has three murder charges stacked up against him at this point.

361
00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:24,440
First he went to trial on the drive-by shootings in Boston, but on April 14th, 2017, he was

362
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,960
found not guilty by the jury of his peers.

363
00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:29,120
How about that?

364
00:19:29,120 --> 00:19:31,040
Were they all three tried at the same time?

365
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:36,720
No, I think that they went ahead and tried him for the first two in Boston, and then

366
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,840
because he was still behind bars.

367
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:39,840
Okay.

368
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:42,200
So his trial for Odin would be coming up.

369
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,920
Now, it's interesting though, to me, because of a high profile person such as this, you

370
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:54,120
know, a football player making $40 million, I'm really kind of surprised, or am I though,

371
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:56,980
that he was still sitting behind bars.

372
00:19:56,980 --> 00:20:01,720
Maybe he couldn't make bond because obviously he's got a violent track record.

373
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,440
So there was a bond available?

374
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:04,440
Oh.

375
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:09,000
I'm asking if they offered him a bond, because sometimes they just say, no, there's no bond

376
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:10,000
available.

377
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:11,480
You cannot bond out of jail.

378
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,120
You are staying until your trial.

379
00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:14,120
Oh, yeah.

380
00:20:14,120 --> 00:20:17,400
I didn't see anything that they offered him one.

381
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,760
Why was he still remaining behind bars?

382
00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,720
I'm thinking that if you have that much in your history and you are being held for three

383
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,880
murders, I think that there's a good chance they said no bail.

384
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:29,880
Yeah, absolutely.

385
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,120
Then that was probably a good choice.

386
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:33,120
Yes.

387
00:20:33,120 --> 00:20:35,640
He did not need to be out running around causing more mayhem.

388
00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:37,640
No, absolutely not.

389
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:45,080
Well, while he's behind bars waiting to go to trial for Odin Lloyd's murder, he was discovered

390
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:52,640
dead in his jail cell where he had just completed suicide by hanging himself with his bed sheet.

391
00:20:52,640 --> 00:21:00,080
He was found just shortly after 3 a.m. on April 19th, 2017, where he was taken to the

392
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,600
hospital and pronounced dead at 4.07 a.m.

393
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:04,600
Wow.

394
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:10,680
Aaron had left two suicide notes inside his cell, one for his family and one for his fiancee.

395
00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,620
I mean, it's a definite deal that that is what occurred.

396
00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:17,080
Nobody came in and did anything to him.

397
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,000
He just completed suicide.

398
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:26,800
That part to me, as violent and angry as he is, you'll understand why I am.

399
00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:28,320
It's a sad ending.

400
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,360
It is.

401
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,840
Where was his life going to go?

402
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:36,240
He had destroyed his own life in every possible way.

403
00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,320
He had an entire golden future ahead of him and he just could not walk the straight and

404
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,240
narrow long enough to enjoy that.

405
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:48,280
But on the other hand, you talk about these professional football players and when they've

406
00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:54,480
played football since they were little kids, basically, a lot of them become extra violent

407
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,920
because they've had head injuries over the years.

408
00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:57,920
Yes.

409
00:21:57,920 --> 00:21:59,040
That's funny you say that.

410
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,760
I was wondering if you were going to go there.

411
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,260
I am going there.

412
00:22:02,260 --> 00:22:05,000
Well I shut my mouth.

413
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,360
Did you read my script?

414
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,120
I didn't, but I'm shutting my mouth and I'm going to let you talk now.

415
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:11,120
Okay, no problem.

416
00:22:11,120 --> 00:22:15,820
No, actually, I love that because you're on the same wavelengths as me and I did kind

417
00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:17,400
of want to end this story.

418
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:23,240
I'm done talking about Aaron being the bad guy here, but I do want to talk about something

419
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,840
that's really important and that's why I'm saying like it's a sad ending, but you'll

420
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:31,440
understand why I said that in just a moment.

421
00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:36,360
Because what you just said, Beth, football, any contact sports, they're all dangerous.

422
00:22:36,360 --> 00:22:40,920
I've had my nephews had a concussion from playing soccer.

423
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,320
Football players get concussions all the time.

424
00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:49,000
And what you said too is that these kids don't just take up football in high school.

425
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,120
They've been playing since they were small kids and Aaron was playing football since

426
00:22:53,120 --> 00:22:54,960
he was eight.

427
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,960
So where's the documentation on if they did get a head injury?

428
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:06,320
Aaron had two documented concussions in his life, but how many hard hits did he actually

429
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,920
get on his head throughout all of those years that he played?

430
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:18,040
Aaron was only 27 when he passed away, but during his autopsy, the medical examiner had

431
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,080
determined that there was something called, I'm going to try to say this.

432
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:28,560
I practiced it a few times before coming on today is called chronic traumatic encephalopathy.

433
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:29,560
Encephalopathy?

434
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:30,560
Yeah, there you go.

435
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:31,960
Or CTE.

436
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:33,760
In short form, I can pronounce this.

437
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,360
It's called CTE.

438
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,680
I can say that one too.

439
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:45,160
Yeah, CTE is contributed not only to Aaron's violent behavior, but his ultimate decision

440
00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,920
to complete suicide.

441
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:54,160
And I've read, I don't know much about CTE or its effects, but I do recall seeing a lot

442
00:23:54,160 --> 00:24:00,240
of articles in the newspaper online, wherever, where football players have agreed that upon

443
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,680
their death, they donate their brains to science, especially if they've had a concussion.

444
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,400
So we're learning a lot more about it, which is good.

445
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:16,960
And I had mentioned that Aaron's medical history, he did have only two documented concussions,

446
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:22,600
but when his brain was autopsied, they discovered that his brain had deteriorated to that of

447
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,400
a 60 year old and he was only 27.

448
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,400
Holy cow.

449
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,400
I know.

450
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,080
You know, when you talk about the violence that you see from a lot of these players,

451
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,960
and we kind of mentioned it earlier in your story, I mean, it's a perfect storm, right?

452
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,400
Because one, there's the injuries to their brains that are over the years and they accumulate

453
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,320
and it just causes so much damage over time.

454
00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:52,640
And two, it's the encouragement of these players to go out and be as violent as possible in

455
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,200
order to be good at what they're supposed to do during the game.

456
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,960
You can't be a nose guard and not be a violent guy.

457
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,120
You have to go out there and smash as hard as you can smash.

458
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:06,120
Right.

459
00:25:06,120 --> 00:25:11,680
And obviously, you know, the NFL has, they have the players out there for a reason.

460
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,640
They want to make money for the team and everything else.

461
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,000
So I mean, that part of it, it will never end, ever.

462
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Yeah.

463
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:24,040
Well, and then there's the third component of giving high school football players a pass

464
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:27,960
for every wrong thing they do because they're so invaluable to the team.

465
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:28,960
Yeah.

466
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:30,320
It's like, oh, you got caught drinking.

467
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,680
Okay, well, no big deal.

468
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,680
We'll let it slide.

469
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:33,680
Yes.

470
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,760
Because they're the stars of the school and nobody wants to get them in trouble.

471
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:37,760
Right.

472
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,320
So it's like a three component perfect storm that allows these guys to turn into these

473
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,960
crazed monsters who do this kind of stuff.

474
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:46,960
It is.

475
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,480
And I'll go one step further than that.

476
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,760
I mentioned I'm a teacher and several years ago, I was assaulted in the classroom by a

477
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:55,760
football player.

478
00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:56,760
Oh God.

479
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,240
Now, did he get taken off the field?

480
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:00,240
No.

481
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,920
Did he get taken out of school?

482
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:02,920
No.

483
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:05,360
So exactly what you were saying, it really does build up.

484
00:26:05,360 --> 00:26:08,880
So of course, you know, those are the years of being invincible.

485
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:09,880
Yeah.

486
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:10,880
And infallible.

487
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,320
So if I'm going to get away with this, then what else can I get away with?

488
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:16,320
Yeah.

489
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:17,320
Well, that is...

490
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,320
Wow.

491
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,520
It's an important story that you brought up because it's something that I think a lot of

492
00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:24,400
people know is a problem.

493
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:25,400
Absolutely.

494
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,240
And some ways they're trying to address some of the components that are affecting this,

495
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:33,320
but it's a big deal and it's not just Aaron Hernandez.

496
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,440
It's a lot of football players.

497
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,280
It's a lot of athletes in general who think they're...

498
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,760
That is so true.

499
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,640
Not infallible, but bulletproof.

500
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,640
Yes, absolutely.

501
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,400
And I will say this, on Dying to be Found, I usually end it with a teachable moment.

502
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,920
And that's something I really want to give you all today is a teachable moment.

503
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:57,560
I don't usually talk about data and statistics, but you know, this is technically a scientific

504
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:03,640
problem that does need to be addressed because, Beth, according to the National Institute

505
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:11,800
of Health, 83.5% of football players who have had at least one documented concussion, they

506
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,680
return to the field within only seven days.

507
00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,840
And how long does a concussion typically take to heal?

508
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:24,960
That's a great question because I have a coworker who got a concussion several weeks ago.

509
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:31,000
We were in a meeting this week and he is still clearly suffering from that.

510
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:32,720
And that was a couple of weeks ago.

511
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,720
Wow.

512
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,920
So they're going back and they may be re-injuring something that hasn't even had a chance to

513
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:38,920
heal yet.

514
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:39,920
Correct.

515
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:40,920
Absolutely.

516
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:47,120
Now, I will also say this, according to Boston University's CTE Center, a case study was

517
00:27:47,120 --> 00:27:56,680
performed where 345 out of 376 former athletes had CTE at the time of their death.

518
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:57,680
Oh my God.

519
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:02,080
And that is 91% of these former athletes.

520
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,080
That is an incredibly high number.

521
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,200
It is an incredibly high number.

522
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:13,080
And they've changed rules in football to try and alleviate the level of damage that these

523
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,920
young men are causing to their brains.

524
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,840
You know, the targeting rules and the way that if your helmet falls off, you have to

525
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,920
sit out the next play so they can check you out, et cetera, et cetera.

526
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:29,280
But it's just, it's devastating what's happening to these young men who otherwise have such

527
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:31,000
a bright future ahead of them.

528
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:32,000
Yeah.

529
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:33,000
And you know what?

530
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:39,520
When I was doing the research for this, I did see a picture online of Aaron in one of

531
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:43,840
his plays where his helmet was removed and he was in the middle of that play.

532
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:44,840
Yeah.

533
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,280
And you know, it got knocked off of him.

534
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,400
And this is where my teachable moment comes in.

535
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:57,560
Beth, if we can send a rocket into outer space, why can't we come up with better safety equipment

536
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,320
for contact sports players of any sport out there?

537
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,920
I mean, obviously we have got to do something because there's got to be better protective

538
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,120
equipment and better guidelines, like you said, to keep them out of the game for a certain

539
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:12,120
period of time.

540
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,640
And that's truly a teachable moment.

541
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,400
I know that there's a lot of research going on.

542
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:22,080
There's a lot of product engineers out there trying to figure out better ways to protect

543
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:23,520
the head during sports.

544
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,320
But I think part of it is that it's like a person inside of a car.

545
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:34,800
If you are driving your car 80 miles an hour and you smash it into a tree, no matter how

546
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:40,240
much damage there is on the outside of the car, it's you slamming into the car when you

547
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:44,200
stop suddenly, that's what's actually causing the damage to your body.

548
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,000
There's not the damage to the car that's causing the problem.

549
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,440
And your head is the car and your brain is you.

550
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,200
And your brain smashes into your skull, that's what's causing the concussion.

551
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:55,000
So I think that's part of the problem.

552
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,200
I don't know if there's a good way to alleviate that damage.

553
00:29:58,200 --> 00:29:59,320
I don't know.

554
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:03,960
Maybe if our listeners can tell us, somebody out there that's working on safety equipment,

555
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:08,120
we'd love to hear from you on Beth's podcast here.

556
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,360
And I'm not going to tell Deb what you said.

557
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,080
Well, that is my bad guy story.

558
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:17,840
Well, that was really interesting.

559
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,000
I knew about Aaron Hernandez.

560
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,720
I remembered when he died in jail.

561
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,380
I did not remember all of the things that led up to that.

562
00:30:27,380 --> 00:30:31,560
So it was a really good summary of the downfall of his life.

563
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:37,880
Yeah, so sad because CTE is not even diagnosed until after someone dies.

564
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,080
They won't know until they actually examine the brain.

565
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,280
Can it not be seen with an MRI or anything like that?

566
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:46,280
It cannot.

567
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:47,280
Oh, wow.

568
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:48,280
That's crazy.

569
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:54,000
Well, I can only hope that people out there are trying their best to take care of themselves

570
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,960
because don't think it can't happen to you.

571
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:57,960
So true.

572
00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:58,960
Yeah.

573
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,680
You know, there's a lot of moms that won't let their sons play football because of this.

574
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,840
And while the sons are mad as hell because they're like, I love this game.

575
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,600
All my friends are playing this game.

576
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:09,720
I play this game.

577
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,120
The mom is like, because I don't want you to turn into Aaron Hernandez.

578
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:14,360
They don't understand that though.

579
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:15,840
They're just in the moment.

580
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,160
So yeah, they think they're indestructible.

581
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:19,840
All right.

582
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,920
So I'm going to tell you a story.

583
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:23,280
I can't wait.

584
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:25,960
I'm going to preface this by saying this is a survivor story.

585
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,560
And a lot of the time with the survivor story, some information will not be available because

586
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:35,120
they don't want everyone in the world to have every bit of information about their life.

587
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:36,400
And we'll just go from there.

588
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,760
Lori E. Melanson was a lovely young woman.

589
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,760
She was pretty, but she didn't flaunt it.

590
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,280
She was shy, quiet, and she kept to herself.

591
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:50,080
She had a kind heart and always held a soft spot for people facing challenges.

592
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,720
And at the age of 26, she had been working with intellectually challenged children at

593
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,180
the intermediate care facility in Speculator, New York.

594
00:31:59,180 --> 00:32:05,120
In January of 1986, Lori started dating a man named John Richard Brown.

595
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:09,920
John was five years older than Lori and had been born in Lowville, New York, but was now

596
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,360
living 90 miles east in Indian Lake.

597
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:18,000
At first, Lori enjoyed the new relationship, but she started to detect red flags in his

598
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,400
behavior.

599
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,520
He started to become erratic and unpredictable.

600
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,840
Lori started to feel nervous about how he would react to things.

601
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,660
His volatility was starting to make her feel afraid of him.

602
00:32:29,660 --> 00:32:34,620
After a very few months, John had decided he wanted to marry Lori.

603
00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:37,480
Marriage to this chaotic man wasn't what Lori wanted.

604
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:38,880
She didn't want marriage.

605
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,840
She didn't want John.

606
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,960
Lori decided to end the relationship because it was clear that she and John wanted very

607
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,380
different things.

608
00:32:46,380 --> 00:32:51,160
And there's really no way to go back to a fun new relationship when one party has decided

609
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,000
they want to make it permanent.

610
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,240
And even though Lori had been clear that the relationship was over, he wouldn't let it

611
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,240
go.

612
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,320
He chided, berated, argued.

613
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,080
He was depressed, negative, and angry.

614
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,320
Lori's family worried about her because he had been so unpredictable.

615
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,120
So first of all, how old is Lori?

616
00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:12,120
She's 26.

617
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:13,120
Okay.

618
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:18,880
So she told her family about some of the behaviors that she was encountering with him?

619
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:19,880
She had.

620
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:20,880
Okay, that's good.

621
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,800
I had told them about the relationship and that he had asked her to marry him and then

622
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,320
he was not letting it go.

623
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:29,080
And she said no and said, let's stop this.

624
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:33,760
You go find someone that wants you back, John, and I'm going to go off on my merry way.

625
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,640
And so she told them all that and they were a little concerned because he was not letting

626
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,640
it go.

627
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:39,640
Oh yeah.

628
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,760
I'd be a concerned parent myself, sure.

629
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:42,760
Absolutely.

630
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:47,520
So over time, John began terrorizing Lori, interfering in her daily life.

631
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,560
He had even gone and stolen her mail.

632
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,560
Oh wow.

633
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:51,560
Yeah.

634
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,760
More than once he confronted her and put his hands on her, trying to plead his case, threatening

635
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:59,360
her if she didn't acquiesce to what he wanted to marry him.

636
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,400
He had even bought rings a few months after meeting Lori, even though she had never given

637
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,320
him any validation towards that idea.

638
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:09,200
She felt responsible for the awful things that were happening.

639
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,960
In Lori's words, she told herself, quote, I made this baby.

640
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:14,200
I'd better rock it.

641
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:18,800
I'd never heard that phrase before, but I think that's a pretty good phrase.

642
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,360
She knew it wasn't her fault for how he was acting, but by saying she'd made that baby,

643
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,980
she meant that she had willingly gotten involved with him and now she couldn't get rid of him.

644
00:34:27,980 --> 00:34:31,000
She feared even worse retribution for the breakup.

645
00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,000
He threatened harm to her family.

646
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,920
He had told her many times that if she wouldn't stay with him, no one else was going to have

647
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,080
her either.

648
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:42,960
And how many times do we hear that in relationships where the controlling partner says, well,

649
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:43,960
you don't want to be with me?

650
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,960
Well, then you aren't going to be with anybody.

651
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:47,160
Yes, absolutely.

652
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,000
In June 1986, John was arrested for stalking and harassing Lori.

653
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,640
He was taken to court where he was directed to stay away from Lori.

654
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,200
Lori feared that the charges would just aggravate him and wouldn't protect her if he got a light

655
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:01,200
sentence.

656
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,120
He dropped the charges and he was released.

657
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:08,640
A month later, he was again arrested for harassing Lori because in the 1980s, it was uncommon

658
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,680
for non-harm charges to amount to any kind of sentence that would actually protect her.

659
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:18,480
Lori knew even if he were convicted, he would be out soon and then even more upset with

660
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,880
her, making him even more dangerous.

661
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,400
So again, she dropped the charges.

662
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,680
Her mother, Frances, feeling the tension of what Lori was going through, wanted to be

663
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,440
near to Lori.

664
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,360
Frances was planning a move from Albany so she could be there to support her daughter

665
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,160
through this tumultuous time with John.

666
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,400
Her plan was to arrive in Indian Lake the week of August the 16th.

667
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,640
On August the 8th, a week before her mom was supposed to move there, Lori had returned

668
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:48,480
home to her apartment about 1130 PM.

669
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,040
John was in her apartment.

670
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:55,360
He attacked her and slapped her very hard and then he handed her a cup of tea, which

671
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,040
he told her to drink.

672
00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:58,040
Yeah.

673
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,800
The following morning, August 9th, Lori awoke to the sound of her sister knocking on her

674
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:03,800
door.

675
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:08,160
Lori found herself naked and had no memory of anything after John had made her drink

676
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:09,160
the tea.

677
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,960
So he came out and just slapped her and here honey, have some tea, make yourself feel better.

678
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,440
He came out, he slapped her and said, drink this.

679
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:17,440
Okay.

680
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,440
So a little forceful.

681
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,960
Or I'll slap you more.

682
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:20,960
Okay.

683
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:21,960
Okay.

684
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:22,960
I got you.

685
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:23,960
Yeah.

686
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:24,960
It was a coercion.

687
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:25,960
He was not trying to make nice with the tea.

688
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,960
Okay.

689
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,880
I didn't know because you know, these personalities, they go hot and cold in a hot second, you

690
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:31,880
know?

691
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:32,880
That's a very good point.

692
00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:33,880
Yeah.

693
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:34,880
That's valid.

694
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,720
So real quick, sorry to interrupt this story.

695
00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:37,720
It's really good.

696
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:38,720
It's okay.

697
00:36:38,720 --> 00:36:39,720
I like interaction.

698
00:36:39,720 --> 00:36:43,680
Did John know that Lori's mom was coming to move to be closer?

699
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:47,240
I don't know because I don't think that Lori would have told him that.

700
00:36:47,240 --> 00:36:48,240
Okay.

701
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:52,080
I think Lori was trying not to interact with him at all if possible, but he just wouldn't

702
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,080
go away.

703
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:54,080
Right.

704
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,080
I see.

705
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,080
Okay.

706
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:01,120
So, later that night, and remember in the morning she had awakened and had been drugged

707
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:02,760
the night before.

708
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,560
Later that night, Lori was in her bed sleeping, but was awakened by what sounded like the

709
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,800
window being opened.

710
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,400
Because of what had happened the previous night, Lori's sister was there staying with

711
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:18,260
her, and Lori called out to her sister that someone was opening the window.

712
00:37:18,260 --> 00:37:22,640
As soon as she called for her sister, the person opening the window, which Lori assumed

713
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,420
and believed was John, ran away.

714
00:37:25,420 --> 00:37:28,880
Lori called the state police to report that someone had been attempting to get through

715
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,160
her second story window.

716
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,180
The police arrived to investigate, but no one was found, and there was no evidence of

717
00:37:35,180 --> 00:37:37,200
whom it might have been.

718
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,240
She was told by the police officer that she couldn't file a complaint about the attempted

719
00:37:41,240 --> 00:37:45,160
entry because neither of the women had actually seen John.

720
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,600
Are you kidding me?

721
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:47,600
Yeah.

722
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:48,600
With everything she's been through.

723
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:49,600
Okay.

724
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:50,600
They're telling her no.

725
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,240
So, obviously they didn't have CCTV either?

726
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,240
No.

727
00:37:54,240 --> 00:37:57,640
In 1986, so I don't think that they probably had any CCTV.

728
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:58,640
Oh yeah.

729
00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:59,640
Okay.

730
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:00,640
That was uncommon back then.

731
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:01,640
No, you're right.

732
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,580
Back in the old days.

733
00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:09,320
She was told she could file a complaint about the apparent drugging of her the previous

734
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:14,840
night, but she couldn't file that complaint at the time because it was 11 o'clock PM,

735
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:16,840
and it was too late to awaken the judge.

736
00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:17,840
Oh, wow.

737
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,800
So, the state police officer said that he would stay outside her apartment until the

738
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,960
morning, kind of guarding over her, and then he would send someone to see her in the morning

739
00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,680
so she could get the complaint filed.

740
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:33,240
But in the morning, she could not find the officer who had said he would stand guard,

741
00:38:33,240 --> 00:38:35,760
and no one had come to take her complaint.

742
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,640
I assume that he got called away on another call and just never returned.

743
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:44,040
Lori and her sister tried to call the police, but there was no answer.

744
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,840
Then they drove to the Indian Lake substation, but there was no personnel there to take her

745
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:48,840
complaint.

746
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,000
So, I don't know what's going on with the police in Indian Lake, but there aren't any,

747
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:54,000
apparently.

748
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:55,600
There's like one guy and he disappears.

749
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:56,600
Right.

750
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:01,720
Lori's sister eventually had to leave to go home, and Lori went to a friend's house for

751
00:39:01,720 --> 00:39:02,800
dinner.

752
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:07,080
While at dinner, she saw John Brown speed past her location in his car.

753
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:08,440
So he's following her.

754
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,040
He may have been following her.

755
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,040
Okay.

756
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:12,040
Like, where you going, Lori?

757
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,040
I'm going to go there, too.

758
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:15,440
Oh, wow.

759
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,880
Around this time, early evening of August the 10th, John Brown had been sitting with

760
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,360
Edith Matthews in her home.

761
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:26,160
He sped past Lori at dinner, and then he went to Edith Matthews' home.

762
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:31,120
At Edith's house, he was very sullen and morose, and Edith was the mother of a longtime

763
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:35,080
friend of John's, so she had known him very well for a long time, and she was concerned

764
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:36,160
about him.

765
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:40,960
He sat with his knees pulled up to his chest and rested his chin on his knees in this juvenile

766
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:46,360
gesture of fear, sadness, and withdrawal, like he's in the fetal position.

767
00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,720
Edith said John was acting very depressed, but that he was being a perfect gentleman.

768
00:39:50,720 --> 00:39:54,520
She had known him over the years to have down periods and mood swings, but said that she

769
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:59,200
had never seen him become angry, and she had never seen a hint of violence from him.

770
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:00,200
Okay.

771
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:06,040
John left Mildred's home, and his next stop, naturally, for a stalker, was Lori's home.

772
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,640
Lori's second-floor apartment was located above a little store called the Cricket's

773
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:10,880
Gifts Shop.

774
00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,920
In the early moments of August 11th, John climbed up to the second-story window and

775
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,600
slipped through into her apartment.

776
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,000
A neighbor later reported seeing him climbing through the window at about 1230 a.m.

777
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:24,280
Did they call the police?

778
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,120
Yeah, I wondered that too, but apparently that neighbor did not call the police, or

779
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:32,800
they did and nobody answered, because apparently nobody answers the phone at the police station.

780
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:33,800
Right.

781
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,200
John hid in Lori's shower, holding a.32 caliber revolver that he had stolen from a

782
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:41,000
co-worker's truck earlier the same day.

783
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,200
He stood there with his arms folded across his chest.

784
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:45,780
His face was like stone.

785
00:40:45,780 --> 00:40:50,280
There was nothing in his expression that indicated any feeling at all.

786
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,560
Lori returned from the night with her friends and stepped into the bathroom just after 1230

787
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:58,300
a.m. to find John standing there in her shower.

788
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:02,880
Her blood ran cold with dread seeing him, and she turned to run.

789
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,560
As she frantically scrambled to escape the room, Brown raised the gun and shot at her.

790
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:11,720
The bullet hitting her in the back of her head.

791
00:41:11,720 --> 00:41:16,520
In the process of trying to escape, being shot, falling to the floor, Lori knocked over

792
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:21,200
a lamp, hit an arrangement of records and knickknacks, and they all went flying.

793
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:26,000
Lori herself had fallen to the floor behind a lounge chair, unable to even break her own

794
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,720
fall.

795
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:33,000
In a final gesture of control and disrespect towards Lori, John raped her while she was

796
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:37,800
semi-conscious and unable to do anything at all to fight back.

797
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,880
John Brown then shot himself in the head.

798
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:44,560
Only two bullets were needed to cause all this harm, and he thought he'd accomplish

799
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:49,120
what he came there to do, to kill Lori and to kill himself.

800
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,280
If he couldn't have her, she wouldn't be with anyone at all, and he had told her that

801
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:53,560
many times before.

802
00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:00,720
It just amazes me with domestic violence, and even if it progresses to what's happening

803
00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:04,960
here in this scenario, I mean, there's so many red flags.

804
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,080
The police were called, somebody was seen trying to get into the window.

805
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Did the owners, whoever owned the building, did they not come behind and try to secure

806
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:19,680
the, obviously they didn't, the window that he had gotten in a second time?

807
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:20,680
That's nuts.

808
00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:21,680
Yeah.

809
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,560
I mean, it's August, so it's possible she was leaving the windows open.

810
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:25,560
Yeah, true.

811
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:28,200
It's 1984, a lot of places didn't have air conditioning.

812
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:29,480
Yeah, so true.

813
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:33,720
So it's either be in this stifling heat or open the window and let some fresh air in.

814
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:40,040
So, but at the second floor, you probably think it's pretty safe on the second floor,

815
00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:41,040
right?

816
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,040
So yeah, you know, the weather's beautiful right now.

817
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,600
So the windows are open.

818
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,960
I don't leave the ones outside maybe my bedroom.

819
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,240
I'm going to close those.

820
00:42:49,240 --> 00:42:50,240
Yeah.

821
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:52,400
But yeah, I sleep with my window open when I can.

822
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:54,560
It's not right there at first level.

823
00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:57,040
It's probably like a one and a half levels up.

824
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,040
Yeah.

825
00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,040
Yeah, I get it.

826
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:00,040
But you're right.

827
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,760
At some point, somebody must be thinking, well, maybe we should do something even if

828
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:05,080
the window has to be open.

829
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:09,000
Maybe we need to secure it somehow with bars or something.

830
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:14,440
But anyway, Lori's head wound was bleeding profusely and the blood from both of their

831
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,200
wounds was pooling.

832
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,080
It seeped through the floor, down through the floor structure, and then through the

833
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,680
ceiling of the first floor below her.

834
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:23,800
Oh my.

835
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:28,440
It took more than 12 hours though before Naomi Steele went into that room on the first floor

836
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:30,720
and saw the blood dripping from the ceiling.

837
00:43:30,720 --> 00:43:32,240
Oh my goodness.

838
00:43:32,240 --> 00:43:33,240
Can you imagine?

839
00:43:33,240 --> 00:43:34,240
No.

840
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:40,280
Horrified, Naomi called police at around 1 30 in the afternoon on Monday, August the 11th.

841
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:45,160
John was dead lying face down on the floor by the time a state trooper who was in the

842
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:49,840
area, oddly enough, kicked down the door of the apartment.

843
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:53,840
Shortly afterward, the Indian Lake Rescue Squad arrived.

844
00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:57,920
Lori was discovered in a semi conscious state still.

845
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:01,280
She was semi conscious when he shot her and she was still semi conscious.

846
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:02,280
Oh my gosh.

847
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,160
12 hours later, this girl's a fighter.

848
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:06,320
She is.

849
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,360
That's amazing.

850
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:13,840
She was taken to the Glens Falls Hospital and medical intervention there saved her life.

851
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:19,100
She was in critical condition after surgery to repair as much damage as could be repaired.

852
00:44:19,100 --> 00:44:23,480
But doctors were not able to remove all of the bullet fragments in her brain.

853
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,920
Pieces of metal still impacted the portion of her brain that control her vision.

854
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:29,840
She was left blind from the attack.

855
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:31,740
Not partially, but completely.

856
00:44:31,740 --> 00:44:36,280
Her eyes were okay, but it was the signals that couldn't get to her brain.

857
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:37,280
Okay.

858
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,280
So at that time she was completely blind.

859
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:40,640
Oh gosh.

860
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:46,200
While Lori was fighting for her life, an anonymous woman who felt that John had been a kind man

861
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:52,600
who was misunderstood and treated unfairly, donated $1,000 in a set of books entitled

862
00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:58,380
Understanding Human Behavior to the Indian Lake Public Library with the stated intent

863
00:44:58,380 --> 00:45:02,960
that the library would start a collection of books on human psychology.

864
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,640
And while on the surface it seems distasteful to make a contribution memorializing a man

865
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,080
who did such a horrific thing, I think it comes down to this donor not being able to

866
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:17,300
reconcile the John Brown that they knew with his horrible final acts and his obsessive

867
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:20,000
and cruel actions in the last few months of his life.

868
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:21,620
I have a question.

869
00:45:21,620 --> 00:45:24,480
Was this person related to him or they just knew him?

870
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,320
They were anonymous, so they never said who it was, but I sort of wondered if it might

871
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:34,880
have been that mother of the friend who was talking about what a kind gentleman he always

872
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:35,880
was.

873
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:36,880
Okay.

874
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:37,880
So.

875
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:38,880
I see.

876
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:44,840
Well then too, I mean, Lori cannot have been the first person who suffered the abuse by

877
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:45,840
John.

878
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,420
He's had to have had a track record, don't you think?

879
00:45:48,420 --> 00:45:49,420
It's possible.

880
00:45:49,420 --> 00:45:50,420
Yeah.

881
00:45:50,420 --> 00:45:53,300
There's a lot of adults that came forward and said that.

882
00:45:53,300 --> 00:45:58,860
But by the time he's 31, this is not the first time he's tried to be coercing and controlling

883
00:45:58,860 --> 00:46:00,520
someone in a relationship.

884
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:01,520
Right.

885
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:02,520
It doesn't happen overnight.

886
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:03,520
No.

887
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:04,720
I mean, it starts small.

888
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:07,520
It starts with things like, you know, where are you going?

889
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:08,520
Where are you going to be?

890
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:09,520
Call me when you get there.

891
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,080
Call me when you get home.

892
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:12,220
It's that kind of stuff.

893
00:46:12,220 --> 00:46:14,800
And then it just grows to this over time.

894
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:20,400
So there probably were other red flags, but Lori had no way to know what those were.

895
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,000
She didn't have any way to know if he had done this to other people before.

896
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,000
No.

897
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:28,720
And you're not going to, when you're in a relationship, you are going to be that perfect

898
00:46:28,720 --> 00:46:30,560
person at all times.

899
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,120
And you would not share something like that anyway.

900
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:34,660
No, of course not.

901
00:46:34,660 --> 00:46:37,920
Because the people that do this sort of stuff never think they're doing anything wrong.

902
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:38,920
Right.

903
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,440
They think they're absolutely justified to be this way.

904
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:42,440
Right.

905
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:43,440
Narcissist at its finest.

906
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:44,440
Exactly.

907
00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:45,440
It's not me.

908
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:46,440
It's you.

909
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:47,520
Mm hmm.

910
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:52,280
But Lori was still trying to heal and fighting every day for many days after the attempt

911
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,320
on her life, still in the intensive care unit while this donation showed up at the library

912
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,860
to memorialize John Brown, who had done this to her.

913
00:47:00,860 --> 00:47:05,280
As her body and brain struggled to heal from the damage from the bullet, she was set back

914
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:10,240
in her recovery when she had a heart attack as a result of the stress on her body.

915
00:47:10,240 --> 00:47:11,980
Oh no.

916
00:47:11,980 --> 00:47:14,680
She also suffered two separate strokes.

917
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:15,980
Oh my gosh.

918
00:47:15,980 --> 00:47:21,400
She also later contracted bacterial meningitis as a complication of what had happened to

919
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:22,400
her.

920
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:23,400
Oh wow.

921
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:27,080
Lori's friends visited her in the hospital and they feared the worst.

922
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,920
They thought she didn't look as if she could recover.

923
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:33,400
They thought they would be attending her funeral in the near future.

924
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:37,120
But Lori was a fighter and she worked hard to regain her health.

925
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:42,320
As she went through the first years of recovery, her brain was unable to receive the signals

926
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:44,240
that her eyes were trying to send it.

927
00:47:44,240 --> 00:47:48,680
A doctor in the hospital after her injury had told her she would never be able to see

928
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:49,680
again.

929
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,600
She suddenly couldn't drive anymore, she had lost a lot of her independence, she had

930
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,400
to rely on friends or family to get her to places that she needed to go or wanted to

931
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,900
go or just felt like going.

932
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:03,360
She lived with her blindness and while she thought how much she wanted to prove that

933
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,120
doctor wrong, she still had to live in the dark.

934
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,220
But her blindness didn't prevent Lori from living her life.

935
00:48:10,220 --> 00:48:14,840
Lori filed a lawsuit against the state of New York for not protecting her from John.

936
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,880
After all the calls and attempts to reach them in the preceding days and just hours

937
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:20,120
before the final attack.

938
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,380
Good for her.

939
00:48:21,380 --> 00:48:25,840
The court ruled that while the state police undertook an affirmative duty to act on Lori's

940
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:31,000
behalf, they weren't convinced that she had justifiably relied on the state police's

941
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,880
acting on her behalf.

942
00:48:32,880 --> 00:48:37,480
In other words, although the police had promised to help her get a report filed and hopefully

943
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:43,280
to arrest John when Lori had seen him at 5 o'clock p.m. that day, she knew he had not

944
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:48,120
been arrested so she should not have relied on the state police by that point to protect

945
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,600
her from John.

946
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:56,040
So Lori lost her case and on appeal the judgment against her was confirmed.

947
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,040
That's frustrating.

948
00:48:58,040 --> 00:48:59,480
That's just wrong.

949
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,760
It's frustrating because she tried so hard.

950
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:02,760
Yeah, yes.

951
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:08,040
You know, she had dropped the charges twice before, but he hadn't raped her.

952
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:09,960
He hadn't drugged her at that point.

953
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:15,600
By the time he's drugged you, raped you, left you naked in your apartment, that's such a

954
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:16,760
violation.

955
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:19,360
That's just beyond obscene.

956
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,400
And at this point she had such a reason to have him arrested.

957
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:24,400
Yes.

958
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:31,240
And the unfortunate part here is that's so common for victims to drop charges is so common.

959
00:49:31,240 --> 00:49:32,240
Yeah.

960
00:49:32,240 --> 00:49:37,040
Because at that point, if all he's done is confront you and steal your mail, yeah, mail

961
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,120
theft is a federal offense, but...

962
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:42,160
Yeah, but that's not harming anybody, you know.

963
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:43,160
Yeah.

964
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,680
So it's not going to get him immediately out of your orbit.

965
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:47,680
Right.

966
00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:49,280
That would, to me, be...

967
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:50,280
Okay.

968
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,640
Is it just a simple act of violation there?

969
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:55,640
Yes.

970
00:49:55,640 --> 00:50:02,760
You know, just from all the stories that we hear that it does build up and, you know,

971
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:06,760
the victims, they're caught between the rock and the hard place.

972
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,960
If I try to leave, what's going to happen?

973
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,680
So a lot of them stay just because of that.

974
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:14,680
Yeah.

975
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:19,160
Well, we've talked about it probably on 40% of the cases that we've covered.

976
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:25,040
As soon as the victim tries to leave, the perpetrator has nothing left to lose at this

977
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:28,200
point because all they want is to control that person.

978
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,200
And if they've completely lost control, they don't care what happens now.

979
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:35,160
They're going to get their revenge.

980
00:50:35,160 --> 00:50:38,120
So leaving is such a dangerous time.

981
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,760
And that's what's going on here.

982
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:41,720
Lori said, see you.

983
00:50:41,720 --> 00:50:44,000
And he lost it.

984
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:47,960
Going through this terrifying and painful experience could have hardened Lori and made

985
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,000
her cynical towards other people's needs.

986
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,880
It's like, I don't care what you're going through.

987
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:53,680
Look what happened to me.

988
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:57,840
So Lori already had worked in the Center for Intellectually Challenged Children.

989
00:50:57,840 --> 00:51:01,960
And after this horrific event that she had survived, she decided she had something to

990
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:07,140
offer other people who might experience things that challenge them physically or mentally.

991
00:51:07,140 --> 00:51:11,360
She began volunteering at the Wisswall Center for Independent Living, where people with

992
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:16,560
special needs were able to go for resources, classes, help, and encouragement.

993
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:21,640
Her empathy provided a common chord with people who have physical or mobility challenges.

994
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,720
The Wisswall Center is now known as the Southern Adirondack Independent Living Center.

995
00:51:26,720 --> 00:51:31,360
Lori said in a 1999 interview, quote, I tell them that they can succeed.

996
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:32,800
I'm living proof of that.

997
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:33,940
We are not disabled.

998
00:51:33,940 --> 00:51:35,500
We are physically challenged.

999
00:51:35,500 --> 00:51:37,240
And there is a big difference.

1000
00:51:37,240 --> 00:51:40,400
Lori knew that sighted people tend to take their vision for granted.

1001
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,920
They forget what a gift it is to be able to see.

1002
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,640
She made a point that when she's walking down the street and needs help in locating something

1003
00:51:47,640 --> 00:51:52,200
she's trying to find, she doesn't hesitate to ask someone to assist her.

1004
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,740
Given that she walks with a white cane, they can easily determine that she is not able

1005
00:51:55,740 --> 00:51:56,740
to see.

1006
00:51:56,740 --> 00:52:01,580
But still, every time she asks for this kind of assistance, the person mindlessly turns

1007
00:52:01,580 --> 00:52:04,480
and points in the direction that Lori needs to go.

1008
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:07,920
She could see the motion, but she can't see where they're telling her to go.

1009
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:13,020
And she has to say, I know they're pointing, but I have to ask, where are you pointing?

1010
00:52:13,020 --> 00:52:17,620
Over the years, Lori was featured in quite a few newspaper articles pointing out a commendation

1011
00:52:17,620 --> 00:52:22,040
that were being developed to make it easier or possible for the blind to participate in

1012
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,220
normal everyday activities.

1013
00:52:24,220 --> 00:52:29,200
She was in an article about the drive to add narration to movies on the big screen to make

1014
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,440
it possible for a sightless person to follow the action.

1015
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,920
Because if you have sight, you never may have considered that.

1016
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,400
Oh, wow.

1017
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:42,160
What's it like to go to a movie when you hear noise, you hear music, you hear talking?

1018
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:43,280
Yes.

1019
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:44,960
But what if there's a big action sequence?

1020
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:46,960
You have no idea what's going on.

1021
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:51,360
But we take so much for granted until it's not there.

1022
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,240
Yeah, we do.

1023
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:57,400
And I've noticed the last, well, I can't remember the last time I went to a movie theater.

1024
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:58,960
Well, me neither.

1025
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,160
But things happen there.

1026
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:01,160
Yeah.

1027
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,980
Do you need help?

1028
00:53:03,980 --> 00:53:09,080
Action narration is now a common thing that's available for sightless people.

1029
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,300
So I think that's awesome.

1030
00:53:12,300 --> 00:53:16,820
She was also featured in an article where the Bureau of Elections in New York was testing

1031
00:53:16,820 --> 00:53:21,640
out accessible voting equipment that allowed her to choose and vote for candidates as guided

1032
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,840
by voice narration through a pair of headphones.

1033
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:29,200
Before this development, Lori had always had to share her voting choices with someone else

1034
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,840
who she trusted to fill out her absentee voting card for her.

1035
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,040
And imagine that your votes are not your private business.

1036
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:39,920
Now you have to share them with someone who's going to transcribe them and you just have

1037
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:43,520
to trust that person's not going to, oh, well, I don't agree with that one.

1038
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,320
So I will overrule this and I will vote for the other candidate.

1039
00:53:46,320 --> 00:53:51,440
I mean, hopefully you've got trustworthy people that aren't going to do that, but you don't

1040
00:53:51,440 --> 00:53:52,440
know.

1041
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:53,440
Right.

1042
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:57,520
Because we know we shouldn't be talking politics because everybody has that opinion and I hope

1043
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,200
she did have somebody that she could try.

1044
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:00,200
I'm sure she did.

1045
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:01,200
You know?

1046
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,200
Absolutely.

1047
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:03,200
I hope so too.

1048
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:04,200
But she shouldn't have to do that.

1049
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:08,560
She should have the ability to vote privately like everybody else.

1050
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:09,560
Absolutely.

1051
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:14,240
Over time, Lori's brain healed enough that she began to be able to see some changes in

1052
00:54:14,240 --> 00:54:15,400
light.

1053
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:19,620
She could raise objects or books to within a few inches of her eyes and see them enough

1054
00:54:19,620 --> 00:54:24,200
to identify them or to read if the font was big enough.

1055
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:29,600
She could also follow a TV show if she sat within about four feet of the screen.

1056
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:35,400
So her vision didn't completely come back, but it did heal enough that she was able to

1057
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:37,920
function a little bit better than before.

1058
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:42,880
I did not realize too, cause you were talking about pointing in what directions.

1059
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,280
So she had a little bit of sight, but that's amazing.

1060
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,280
Four feet is actually a long way.

1061
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:49,280
Yeah.

1062
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,120
And there was all text on the screen.

1063
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,260
She would probably have to get closer.

1064
00:54:53,260 --> 00:54:55,920
You know, like a computer monitor, she would have to be closer.

1065
00:54:55,920 --> 00:55:01,000
But for watching a soap opera, you know, I think she could sit far enough and she could

1066
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:02,400
just see the people moving around.

1067
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:03,920
She could see if they embraced.

1068
00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:04,920
Right.

1069
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:05,920
Yeah.

1070
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:07,960
That was a really good development in her life.

1071
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:09,800
Oh, good for her.

1072
00:55:09,800 --> 00:55:14,880
So while Lori was handed a really crappy hand to play, although she had done nothing to

1073
00:55:14,880 --> 00:55:19,320
deserve what happened to her, she went forward in her life with grace.

1074
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,640
Lori struggled with accepting how different her life had become, how much her independence

1075
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:29,040
was disrupted, and how much of her life overall had been changed by one person's selfish

1076
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,900
choice in 1986.

1077
00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:35,540
But throughout the daily struggle to keep moving forward and being a positive force

1078
00:55:35,540 --> 00:55:39,920
in the world, every time she worked with people at the Independent Living Center, she knew

1079
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,720
she'd helped someone, been a positive influence in their lives.

1080
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:47,380
And she was reminded of that every time she walked out that door.

1081
00:55:47,380 --> 00:55:51,680
And that's about all that's available about our good-hearted survivor Lori Melanson, who

1082
00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:57,840
was one of the unfortunate people who just get latched onto by unhealthy stalker types

1083
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:00,280
who will not let them go and live their life.

1084
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:03,160
As far as I can tell, Lori is still living.

1085
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:07,040
And I have to believe that means she's still making positive impacts on those around her.

1086
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,640
So that is the story of Lori Melanson, our hero of the day.

1087
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,400
Oh, I'm sure she is.

1088
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,320
I love that she survived.

1089
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,320
And she's so strong.

1090
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:21,640
What a great, independent, influential person.

1091
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,180
I have goosebumps, Beth.

1092
00:56:23,180 --> 00:56:24,180
This is amazing.

1093
00:56:24,180 --> 00:56:25,180
Good for her.

1094
00:56:25,180 --> 00:56:31,240
I had read an article that just made a quick mention, like a one sentence mention that

1095
00:56:31,240 --> 00:56:35,720
John Brown had also burned down her parents' retirement home.

1096
00:56:35,720 --> 00:56:40,080
But I couldn't find that validated anyplace, so I didn't really include it in here.

1097
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:41,080
Right.

1098
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:45,240
But that just goes to show you the terror he was inflicting on this family.

1099
00:56:45,240 --> 00:56:46,240
Oh, yes.

1100
00:56:46,240 --> 00:56:47,240
Yeah.

1101
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:49,280
And it was extended not... That's crazy.

1102
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:53,800
It was extended not just to her, but her family members.

1103
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:55,840
There's nothing right about that.

1104
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:56,840
No.

1105
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:58,440
Oh, that was good.

1106
00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:03,960
The thing is though, like you mentioned earlier, these domestic violence and assault cases

1107
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:08,300
that are so... You see it coming.

1108
00:57:08,300 --> 00:57:11,700
You can see it coming because we've seen so many of these cases.

1109
00:57:11,700 --> 00:57:18,700
We know he's going to turn the corner and drop that shoe that can't be undropped.

1110
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:20,220
You can't unring the bell.

1111
00:57:20,220 --> 00:57:24,560
And this guy was going to do something violent to Lori.

1112
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:27,420
But Lori hadn't had this relationship before.

1113
00:57:27,420 --> 00:57:31,780
She didn't know as much about domestic violence cases as you and I do.

1114
00:57:31,780 --> 00:57:32,780
She didn't know.

1115
00:57:32,780 --> 00:57:34,480
She had no way to predict this.

1116
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:35,480
No.

1117
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,960
But when she asked for help, nobody helped her.

1118
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:39,400
Yeah, that's crazy.

1119
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:49,360
I don't know about you, Beth, but I have witnessed people in those types of relationships.

1120
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:57,200
It's really hard as an outsider looking in, like how involved are you supposed to get

1121
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:00,360
in, what direction do I need to go?

1122
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,600
It's very difficult even for those people that are not in that situation.

1123
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,520
Yeah, it is.

1124
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:13,640
And I did a case a few episodes ago and Rachel from Australia, the survivor in that case

1125
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:19,640
actually said, if you see that your friends are in a bad situation, don't just let it

1126
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:20,640
go.

1127
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,040
Don't say they know what they're doing.

1128
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:23,500
They'll be okay.

1129
00:58:23,500 --> 00:58:26,920
Because they may not have any idea how to get out of it.

1130
00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:27,920
Right.

1131
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:33,680
Help them find resources and offer help, offer to let them have a place to stay.

1132
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:34,680
Yes.

1133
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:38,320
But yes, absolutely everything that you were saying 100%.

1134
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:46,800
However, we're going to go back to the victim who does not see that leaving or taking action

1135
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,000
is going to benefit them in any way.

1136
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:53,880
There's so many people, we already said it once, but so many people stay for the wrong

1137
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:54,880
reasons.

1138
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:59,000
But in some places, there just aren't any local resources for people to get up, pick

1139
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:00,520
up their bag and go.

1140
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:01,520
True.

1141
00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:06,320
If you don't have a safe place to land when you leave that house, that's going to make

1142
00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,520
it extra hard for you to get up and go.

1143
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:10,520
Sure.

1144
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:11,520
Yeah.

1145
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:15,760
A lot of women's shelters, and I know it's not only women who are abused and threatened

1146
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:20,960
by their partners, but a lot of women's shelters don't even have published addresses because

1147
00:59:20,960 --> 00:59:26,080
they want the survivor to go and have a place where there's no possible way for someone

1148
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:27,080
to find them.

1149
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,800
They have to individually get that address from someone.

1150
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:30,800
Yes.

1151
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,800
And then how do you do that?

1152
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:34,480
It can take a long time.

1153
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:35,480
Yes.

1154
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:39,320
I think there are more resources available now, a lot more resources available now than

1155
00:59:39,320 --> 00:59:40,880
there were in 1986.

1156
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:42,440
Yeah, absolutely.

1157
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:46,560
And it wasn't as publicly known how these relationships devolve.

1158
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:52,000
That devolution of relationships is terrifying.

1159
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:55,040
Well, I'm glad that she survived.

1160
00:59:55,040 --> 00:59:56,520
I'm glad that Lori's...

1161
00:59:56,520 --> 00:59:57,520
Oh my gosh.

1162
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,240
I'm just thrilled that her sight came back enough.

1163
01:00:00,240 --> 01:00:06,120
And her spirit, she seems nothing stopped her from doing what she had to do to move

1164
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:07,440
on with her life and that.

1165
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:08,440
Oh my gosh.

1166
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:10,520
Is she doing public speaking anywhere?

1167
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:11,560
I don't think so.

1168
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:12,760
I didn't find anything.

1169
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,360
I would have thought if she was doing something like that, she would have had a website.

1170
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:22,080
And I couldn't find any update on what she's doing now, like today.

1171
01:00:22,080 --> 01:00:24,720
So she's just living her life.

1172
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:29,400
I think she's just living a private life because they said at the beginning that she was very

1173
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:31,500
quiet, kind of kept to herself.

1174
01:00:31,500 --> 01:00:34,200
She didn't really want to go out there and beat the big drum.

1175
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,480
She just wanted to live her life.

1176
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,680
Well good for you, Lori.

1177
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:41,480
That was a great story, Beth.

1178
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:42,480
Well, thank you.

1179
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:46,680
Thank you for bringing us the story of Erin Hernandez because I really did learn a lot

1180
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:48,280
in your telling of that.

1181
01:00:48,280 --> 01:00:49,280
Thanks.

1182
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:53,520
Do you have any last things that you want to tell people about how to find your podcast

1183
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:56,000
or where you can be found on social media?

1184
01:00:56,000 --> 01:00:57,000
Absolutely.

1185
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:02,400
You can find me on hashtag dying to be found and that's dying the number two, the letter

1186
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:03,860
B found.

1187
01:01:03,860 --> 01:01:09,640
I'm actually doing a little bit more on TikTok these days, but I would say Instagram is probably

1188
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:10,640
the number one.

1189
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:14,720
I do have Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, TikTok.

1190
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:17,080
Instagram is probably my number one.

1191
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,760
I do have a website dying to be found.com.

1192
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:24,720
Then if you go to any of my podcasts, you'll see a link tree and you can basically see

1193
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:26,440
everything there.

1194
01:01:26,440 --> 01:01:33,160
And basically if you do any search on any of the podcast sites on Spotify, Apple, Amazon

1195
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:35,760
Music, dying to be found, you'll find me.

1196
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:37,280
Google me, you'll find me.

1197
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:38,280
Okay.

1198
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:39,280
Awesome.

1199
01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:40,840
Thank you for being here.

1200
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:45,240
I really enjoyed having you Deb and I hope everybody will go find you.

1201
01:01:45,240 --> 01:01:47,480
Thanks so much for having me today.

1202
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:52,160
That was such a great story and I appreciate you having me as a guest.

1203
01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:53,160
Thank you Deb.

1204
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:56,840
It was great having you and everybody please come back in two more weeks.

1205
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,960
I don't know what I'll have for you then, but I'll have something.

1206
01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:02,200
All right.

1207
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:03,200
Thank you.

1208
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:04,200
Have a great day everybody.

1209
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,200
Bye.

1210
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:13,800
So what are you going to do to prove it?

1211
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:14,800
See here we go.

1212
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,040
Scratch that.

1213
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:21,320
My daughter Shelby, she helped me along the way because my nephew whom I'm neck and neck

1214
01:02:21,320 --> 01:02:23,920
with, I think he's a little competitive.

1215
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,720
You know, look, I can't read out loud just so you know.

1216
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:30,680
So you're going to have a little bit of an headache if your head falls off.

1217
01:02:30,680 --> 01:02:32,760
You were trying to read and I cut you off.

1218
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:34,480
Oh no, no, no, no.

1219
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,120
I am not reading, but I'll do it again.

1220
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:39,120
Hit really hard.

1221
01:02:39,120 --> 01:02:40,120
Sorry.

1222
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,600
I'm going to have to edit that smack out.

1223
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:43,600
See I couldn't even say it.

1224
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,080
I worked in the medical field for 15 years.

1225
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,000
There you go.

1226
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,000
Okay.

1227
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:50,840
Something is going bumpy bumpy on your end.

1228
01:02:50,840 --> 01:02:51,840
Really?

1229
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:52,840
Stop thumping.

1230
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:53,840
Thumping.

1231
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:54,840
Okay.

1232
01:02:54,840 --> 01:02:55,840
Sorry.

1233
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,240
I was trying to like take notes, but I won't do that.

1234
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:01,240
You don't have to do that.

1235
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:02,240
It's because I'm on the bed.

1236
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:04,280
That's the only place that I can get good sound.

1237
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:05,280
It's wiggly.

1238
01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:08,160
Is it okay if I ask you questions?

1239
01:03:08,160 --> 01:03:10,160
First of all, how old is Lori?

1240
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:11,160
Yes.

1241
01:03:11,160 --> 01:03:14,440
So we sped past where Lori was at dinner and then he went to Edith Matthew.

1242
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:15,440
Oops.

1243
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:16,440
I just whacked my microphone.

1244
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:17,440
Whoops.

1245
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:26,880
John had in Lori's staff in Lori's stower, taking his tower could be done as could.

1246
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:27,880
That doesn't make any sense.

1247
01:03:27,880 --> 01:03:30,320
As much damage as I'll fix that later.

1248
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:32,080
Neither of those makes any sense.

1249
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:33,080
Okay.

1250
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:35,840
There's my cat.

1251
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:37,840
Oh yes.

1252
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:42,960
Bailey, can you come save me?

1253
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:45,000
Let me text her real quick.

1254
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,000
She's upstairs.

1255
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,600
Or you can just bring puts into the screen.

1256
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,600
I've locked her out of this room.

1257
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:52,600
Oh, she's outside.

1258
01:03:52,600 --> 01:03:53,600
Yes.

1259
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:54,600
She's that loud.

1260
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:57,600
I just texted.

1261
01:03:57,600 --> 01:04:01,520
Help, help, help.

1262
01:04:01,520 --> 01:04:02,520
Are you out there?

1263
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:03,520
Yeah.

1264
01:04:03,520 --> 01:04:06,160
Thank you.

1265
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:08,800
Saved from the big black bear monster.

1266
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:10,520
Did she get her sight back?

1267
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:12,320
Let's just keep going.

1268
01:04:12,320 --> 01:04:13,320
What?

1269
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,840
13 years after, then is it possible?

1270
01:04:16,840 --> 01:04:18,880
So anyway, we'll get there, but that's why I asked the question.

1271
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,920
Well, I know why you asked the question, but you still have to wait because I have another

1272
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,320
paragraph before I get there.

1273
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:25,320
Narration.

1274
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:26,320
All right.

1275
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:33,000
I'm getting to the end of this and I'm starting to lose my focus.

1276
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,000
I don't know.

1277
01:04:34,000 --> 01:04:37,520
I was not even prepared to look that up, but I'll look that up real fast.

1278
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:39,320
You have to say bye too.

1279
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,560
Nobody ever wants to say bye.

1280
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,840
When you asked me to... Hold on.

1281
01:04:45,840 --> 01:04:46,840
I'm sorry.

1282
01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:47,840
You're going to have to clip this out.

1283
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:49,720
Don't put it at the end of your podcast now.

1284
01:04:49,720 --> 01:04:50,720
I might.

1285
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,720
Everything's open for the bloopers.

1286
01:04:52,720 --> 01:04:53,720
That's okay.

1287
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,920
Thanks for listening to Dying to be Failed.

1288
01:04:55,920 --> 01:04:59,200
True Crime podcast and our Dash mini series.

1289
01:04:59,200 --> 01:05:04,600
Every week we'll bring you a variety of True Crime episodes, a little dash of hope, plus

1290
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,160
special bonus episodes with some really cool guests.

1291
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:12,760
Before we go, we'd love for you to share this podcast with your friends and give us a five

1292
01:05:12,760 --> 01:05:14,140
star review.

1293
01:05:14,140 --> 01:05:21,000
Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to be Found, or visit

1294
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:26,320
our website at Dying to be Found.com, spelled just like you see it in our logo.

1295
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,720
Better yet, click on our Linktree account found in the show notes, where you'll find

1296
01:05:30,720 --> 01:05:33,120
all the information in one place.

1297
01:05:33,120 --> 01:05:38,500
Be sure to dash in every Wednesday for our mini episodes, plus every Thursday when I

1298
01:05:38,500 --> 01:05:41,120
get together with some of my family members.

1299
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:49,640
Thanks again everyone, and we'll talk to you soon.