1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,200 On July 1st, 1874, four-year-old Charlie Ross was abducted by two men and became the very first 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:15,840 victim of kidnap for ransom in the United States. 65 years later, in 1939, a man named Gustav Blair 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:22,560 came forward to claim that he was Charlie Ross, the little boy who, by all accounts, was never 4 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:28,960 heard from again after he disappeared. Is it possible that Charlie and Gustav are one in the 5 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:35,040 same? If this story sounds familiar, it should, because I brought you the case of Charlie Ross 6 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:41,760 in episode three of Dying to be Found the Dash. But keep listening, because today we have a special 7 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:48,480 guest with even more facts about Charlie's story that just may get us a little closer to the truth. 8 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:56,480 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. Before we get started, I just wanted to say that 9 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:03,280 episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 10 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:08,640 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this 11 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:33,520 podcast. Listener discretion is strongly advised. Right after our Charlie Ross episode aired, 12 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:39,360 I received an email from Rod Miller, one of our listeners who has kindly agreed to talk with me 13 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:46,160 today about this case. Rod will give us a brief overview of Charlie Ross, plus firsthand knowledge 14 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:51,520 from his own findings about Charlie Ross, which will help us to connect the dots between what I 15 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:57,920 first responded in episode three of The Dash. Hi Rod, how are you? So glad that you are here today. 16 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:01,120 Thank you Deborah, I'm very happy to be here and thanks for inviting me. 17 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:07,360 Absolutely. Hey, I am so enthralled with the mystery and myths beyond what I learned when I 18 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:13,760 first looked into this case by myself and I really cannot wait to hear what you've learned from your 19 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:19,840 own research. And from my understanding, Rod, you put a ton of research into this. So I thought it 20 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:24,880 would be a great idea for you to walk us through your findings from the very beginning. Okay, 21 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,920 I'll try to do that. Can you give us a brief background on Charlie Ross? Sure. First ever, 22 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:35,440 you did a really nice job in your podcast summarizing the Charlie Ross kidnapping and 23 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:39,920 you were very accurate. The detail was really good. Thank you. So I'll give a brief summary 24 00:02:39,920 --> 00:02:45,200 for your listeners that don't maybe didn't see that and would rather just start here. The 25 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:51,120 kidnapping of Charlie Ross happened in 1874 and it's known as the first kidnapping for ransom in 26 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:57,680 America. The story about it has been told many times in books and newspapers, magazines, scholarly, 27 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:03,760 historical crime journals, and now in podcasts like yours. There was extensive newspaper coverage, 28 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:09,440 both across the United States and abroad. Charlie Ross and his brother Walter were kidnapped on July 29 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:16,400 1st, 1874 by two men in front of the Ross home in Germantown. That's a Philadelphia neighborhood. 30 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,920 And it happened despite the warnings of their father, don't take candy from strangers. Now you 31 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:26,560 and I have heard that. We have. Because it's passed down from generation to generation. Do you think 32 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:32,640 that's where that really started from? Never know. But yes, another first, the kidnapping and that 33 00:03:32,640 --> 00:03:40,560 saying, well, the kidnappers released Walter, but they kept Charlie after 23 ransom notes between 34 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:46,320 the kidnappers and Christian Ross and several attempts to retrieve the child. Unfortunately, 35 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:51,680 he was never returned to the family. The most legitimate lead in attempting to find Charlie's 36 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:59,840 kidnappers involved two burglars, William Mosier and Joseph Douglas. In 1875, just six months after 37 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:05,600 the kidnapping, while attempting to rob a home of a local judge in New York, both men were shot. 38 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:11,920 Mosier was killed instantly. And while dying, his partner Douglas confessed they had kidnapped 39 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,800 Charlie Ross. Both of them had been under suspicion in investigation for the kidnapping. 40 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:22,480 The brother-in-law of Mosier, his name was William Westervelt, was later convicted of 41 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:28,560 complicity in the kidnapping. The police pursued many, many leads and suspects over the years, 42 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:33,840 but Charlie was never found. Christian Ross spent the rest of his life looking for his son until he 43 00:04:33,840 --> 00:04:41,040 died in 1897. After investigating hundreds of leads, by the time of his death in 1943, 44 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:46,400 Walter, his brother, said there had been over 5,000 claims to be his lost brother. 45 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:51,920 That always amazes me, Rod, when people come forward like that. What's the motive? 46 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:53,600 The motive for the kidnapping? 47 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:58,240 You said 5,000 people came forward to claim that they were Charlie Ross? 48 00:04:58,240 --> 00:05:04,960 Right. And most of them seemed to be interested in what they thought was the Ross fortune. Christian 49 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:10,480 Ross was known to be a businessman and he owned a business and was thought to be very wealthy. 50 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:18,080 But there was a significant stock market crash in the early 1870s and Christian Ross lost a lot of 51 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:18,720 his money. 52 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,560 So how are you connected with Charlie Ross? 53 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:30,880 Well, it's an interesting story as well because on February 4th, 1939, Gustav Blair, an Arizona man 54 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:36,480 that was known as a gardener, a painter, a carpenter, kind of a handyman, legally asserted 55 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:43,200 in a court of law that he was Charlie Ross. He told a Maricopa County court he was hidden in Lee 56 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:48,720 County, Illinois by the Miller family who were complicit in the kidnapping. He said the Millers 57 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:54,720 raised him as their own son, Nelson Miller, but he later changed his name to Gustav Blair. 58 00:05:54,720 --> 00:06:00,320 I am a descendant of the Miller family and the jury that heard this case and declared that he 59 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:06,000 was in fact Charlie Ross, they got it wrong. And we have since proven he is actually my great uncle, 60 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:07,440 Nelson Miller. 61 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:13,680 That is absolutely amazing. When you first contacted me, Rod, I just couldn't believe what 62 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:20,240 I was reading and the information that you gave me. And I just have no words with how much research 63 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:26,400 that you've done in this whole case. So how did you first become involved with investigating this 64 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:27,040 case? 65 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:32,160 Well, I was 26 years old and in graduate school when I visited my parents in Mason City, 66 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:38,560 Iowa. That was in 1977. I'm from a family of 10 boys and three girls. I'm the youngest of the 10 67 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:44,080 boys. My father took me into the basement of our home and took out a collection of documents from 68 00:06:44,080 --> 00:06:50,720 a wet mill dude cardboard drum and said, this is the story of Charlie Ross. That's all he said. 69 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:55,360 How did that conversation get started? Were you in the kitchen having some tea? What was happening? 70 00:06:55,360 --> 00:07:00,160 Yeah, well, yeah, I just was home visiting and he said, I want to take, I want to show you 71 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:06,160 something. And he took me down to the basement. There was never any discussion of Charlie Ross. 72 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:08,320 I didn't know him from a hot rock. 73 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:10,240 He'd never brought it up until that day. 74 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:11,360 Yeah, until that day. 75 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:13,200 Wow. 76 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:21,280 We've later have referred to this set of documents as the black satchel. And I regret my dad and I 77 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,960 never spoke about it again. 78 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:23,440 Really? 79 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:32,400 It was documents home and I laid out 234, mostly typewritten onion skin papers to dry. They were 80 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:40,240 water and mildew damaged. They smelled. And this group of documents, my father, when he gave them 81 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:47,360 to me, said they belonged to his father and said, this is Charlie Ross. So among the other documents 82 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:53,440 was a draft of a book that my grandfather was writing titled Hunting for the Lost Charlie Ross. 83 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:59,680 Also was my great grandfather's signed confession that he murdered one of the kidnappers. 84 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:05,920 There was a tim type photo of Charlie Ross and multiple affidavits that were testifying to the 85 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,200 detail of the kidnapping looked pretty legitimate. 86 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:10,240 Wow. 87 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:14,320 So after studying those documents and taking into consideration, 88 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:19,600 my grandfather had committed murder and confessed to it. And my family was involved in the 89 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:26,960 kidnapping of a child. I decided I would just keep them hidden. But as I aged, I decided I would pass 90 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:35,040 them on to my nephew, Larry Miller in 2005. Larry is the son of my oldest brother and resides now 91 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:41,600 in Grimes, Iowa. So he digitally scanned and preserved all of the documents. Together, we 92 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:47,920 decided we'd use modern technology, the internet, and eventually DNA to investigate the story. And 93 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,120 we took on the personas of Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson. 94 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:52,320 Which one were you? 95 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:53,280 I'm Dr. Watson. 96 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,520 How are Charlie Ross, Gustav Blair, and Nelson Miller related? 97 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:04,560 That's a mouthful, all those three names, but you know, they're the same person for our discussion 98 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:10,080 here today. It's really complicated and convoluted, but I'll try to make it really simple as possible. 99 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:18,800 But it all begins with the man, Nelson Miller. Nelson Miller was born in Lee County in 1874, 100 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:25,280 the same year that Charlie Ross was kidnapped. He was the seventh of 11 boys born to Renear 101 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:28,640 and Ann Miller, my great-grandparents. 102 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,800 So Nelson Miller is your great-uncle? 103 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:31,360 He is. 104 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:32,240 Okay. 105 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:38,640 So his father was a beekeeper and a farmer, well-known in the area, respected man. So Nelson 106 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:45,360 married and had six children, but he abandoned them in 1908 and went on a crime spree across 107 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,640 the Midwest with a friend, another man, and was finally arrested in Fresno, California, 108 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:53,680 tried, convicted, and sentenced to Folsom Prison. 109 00:09:53,680 --> 00:09:54,320 Wow. 110 00:09:54,320 --> 00:10:02,400 He was paroled in 1915 to his brother, which is my grandfather, here in Minnesota. He then 111 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:08,960 took on the name of Gustav Blair. So now we move from Nelson Miller to Gustav Blair. 112 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:17,040 And Gustav Blair dominated the story that we're talking about in his pursuit of the name Charlie 113 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:22,960 Ross. So over time, Gustav Blair gave a lot of explanations for why he changed his name, 114 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:28,240 but we, as we'll talk a little bit later, we concluded that it was to conceal his criminal 115 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:28,720 past. 116 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:29,520 I see. 117 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:35,440 So as early as 1932, he began promoting his claim that he was in fact Charlie Ross. And 118 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,400 you might remember that right around that time was another famous kidnapping in America, 119 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,240 the Charles Lindbergh kidnapping. 120 00:10:42,240 --> 00:10:43,040 Yes. 121 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:49,120 So there was a lot of publicity and talk about child abduction and kidnapping and ransom. So 122 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:56,240 that may have stimulated this contrived story. We're not really sure, but it all happened at 123 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,560 the same time. So Gustav Blair began promoting that he was Charlie Ross. And he told reporters 124 00:11:02,560 --> 00:11:08,240 that he had 12 affidavits that he would use in a court of law to prove that he was Charlie Ross. 125 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:13,520 Those are the affidavits we found in the black satchel. So it all started coming together here. 126 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:14,240 Wow. 127 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:19,680 With his contention, he sued the Ross family to be recognized as their brother. And the Ross 128 00:11:19,680 --> 00:11:24,160 family just simply ignored his suit, ignored him, and didn't attend the trial. 129 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:30,560 Gustav Blair's trial was heard before a jury on May 9th, 1939. And they declared that he was in 130 00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:35,920 fact Charles Brewster Ross. It only took them eight minutes. And as I mentioned earlier, 131 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:42,160 after 15 years of research and a DNA study, we have proven he in fact is Nelson Miller. 132 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:44,320 He could not have been Charlie Ross. 133 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:50,880 Wow. Do you think if the Ross family showed up to the trial that the outcome may have been 134 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:51,280 different? 135 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:57,520 None of them showed up. They completely ignored him. Walter Ross said, we know of this man, 136 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:04,080 and he is a fraud. And none of them attended. So the trial went on uncontested. 137 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:11,360 I see. Well, can you walk us through how DNA is analyzed and how you used it in your research? 138 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,480 Sure. DNA, as you know, is the genetic code of a person's heredity, their physical development, 139 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:22,560 their characteristics. It's passed from generation to generation through a system of X and Y 140 00:12:22,560 --> 00:12:29,440 chromosomes. So paternity studies using DNA can identify exactly who a person's parents are. 141 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:35,440 But genealogical DNA testing is used to identify a broader perspective of a person's 142 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:42,000 ancestral relationship. This first came up in 1999 when a scholar by the name of Tom Everly 143 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:47,360 did really extensive research into the kidnapping of Charlie Ross and particularly Gustav Blair's 144 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:52,400 claim. So we weren't the first. And we have since met and have become very close friends with Tom 145 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:58,480 Everly. But he asked the Ross family at that time to participate in the paternity type study with 146 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:04,000 the Miller family to determine if Gustav Blair or Nelson Miller was in fact Charlie Ross. 147 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,760 The family didn't even respond or answer his inquiry. 148 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:15,360 So in 2011, we decided instead of proving Gustav Blair was Charlie Ross, we would prove he was not 149 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:21,760 and why DNA testing would not require the Ross family to be involved or to participate. 150 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:28,800 The reason is a man's male ancestry can be traced using DNA on the Y chromosome. 151 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:36,160 Y chromosome passes down almost unchanged from father to son, the genetic code. A man's test 152 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:42,560 results are compared to another man's to determine if the two individuals share a common ancestor. 153 00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:47,120 And if the test results are perfect or nearly perfect, they are in fact related. And that's 154 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:54,160 what we did. We identified an accredited DNA test laboratory and they did our study. And on March 155 00:13:54,160 --> 00:14:02,080 22, 2011, they reported the kinship test results. And what we did was we identified descendants of 156 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:06,960 two children of Renear and Ann Miller, the family that supposedly hit Charlie Ross. 157 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:07,600 Wow. 158 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:13,760 And we found two descendants that were willing to participate in this study. We collected DNA 159 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:20,480 from a male descendant of each two suspected Miller brothers, Harrison Miller and Nelson Miller, 160 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:28,720 whom we know is also known as Gustav Blair. So DNA analysis determined that they had a 99.99903 161 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,840 percent probability of kinship, meaning they were in fact brothers. 162 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:34,400 Okay. 163 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:42,000 They share the almost exact paternal lineage with a perfect 3737 strand marker match. 164 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:42,560 Wow. 165 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:47,840 So as I said, Gustav Blair was a Miller, Nelson Miller, he could not have been Charlie Ross. 166 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:48,640 We proved. 167 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,840 That is phenomenal. I mean, science in itself, it's always a guessing game, 168 00:14:53,840 --> 00:15:00,000 but look how far we've come with DNA. That is so amazing. And I can't believe you put so much 169 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:05,520 time into this. What was the timeline from the time that you sent the testing off to the firm 170 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:07,040 until you got the results? 171 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:14,640 It was probably six months. We used scientific procedures and chain of evidence because 172 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:19,840 depending on the result, we didn't want our test to be questioned, challenged or contaminated. 173 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:25,520 Mm-hmm. When we did the collection from the participants, the two men that we had traced 174 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:32,400 that had direct lineage, one was my older brother. So he has the exact same wide DNA as I do. So we 175 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:38,960 sent a forensic laboratory to each of the homes and they scientifically collected, recorded the 176 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:45,440 specimens. And then the chain of evidence, the specimens never left the hands of a 177 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:52,000 monitored DNA specialist. So that took a little more time and we got the samples sent to the lab 178 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:57,280 in text and it took them about three months and they reported the results. 179 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:03,440 I see. So very methodical. That is just simply amazing. So you had mentioned that Gustav seems 180 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:08,160 to have a checkered past. You had said that a couple of minutes ago and can you tell us more 181 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:09,120 about that? 182 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:14,880 Yeah, it's a sad kind of story and it's kind of not something I'm particularly proud of 183 00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:21,120 because he is my great uncle. But as I mentioned, Gustav Blair began his life as Nelson Miller in 184 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:27,520 Dixon, rural Dixon, Illinois. And he married and had children. He abandoned them, as I mentioned, 185 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:33,120 and he left Illinois with another man and they allegedly committed crimes as they traveled for 186 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,800 two years through Colorado, Idaho and California, where it stopped, as I mentioned earlier. 187 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:46,160 In 1910, when Nelson was 36 years old, he was convicted in Fresno, California on two counts of 188 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:51,120 embezzlement and was sentenced to nine years at Folsom Prison. After serving five of those, 189 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,560 he was paroled, believe it or not, to his brother Harrison Miller, my grandfather, in Oetana, 190 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:02,320 Minnesota in 1915. Now Harrison was a convicted felon too. He had just been released from the 191 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:08,800 Iowa State Penitentiary, where he served for cheating by false pretenses. And nowadays that 192 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:14,640 would be some kind of swindle. So here we have two convicted convict brothers living together, 193 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:24,080 both on parole in Minnesota in 1915. So nine months after Nelson was released and put in the 194 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:30,240 supervision of his brother, he was arrested again in Blue Earth, Minnesota. And sadly, this time he 195 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:37,040 was charged with sodomy of a 15-year-old boy. Now we speculate a lot about this because he came after 196 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:43,280 five years out of a prison setting and there's a lot of discussion about sexual activity and behavior 197 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:49,360 in prison. So we could speculate about this, but the fact is he was arrested and was charged. He 198 00:17:49,360 --> 00:17:56,160 was held in the county jail for 55 days pending trial on the charge. He was released when the grand 199 00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:02,400 jury could not indict him on the charge. And when I spoke with the court historian in Blue Earth, 200 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:08,400 they said, it's not unusual for a victim in these kinds of cases, especially juveniles, to refuse to 201 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:17,120 testify. So Nelson was released from that situation. And then his son got into some difficulty and was 202 00:18:17,120 --> 00:18:24,400 also incidentally in the same jail in Blue Earth, Minnesota on another charge from which his son was 203 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:30,640 convicted and went to prison in Minnesota for three years. So Nelson, out of Oahu, Tana, Minnesota, 204 00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:36,960 petitioned the Minnesota parole board for the early release of his son and said, I have a farm 205 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:44,080 that I bought in South Dakota and I want to put my son there to manage that farm and he will be a 206 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:50,640 respected citizen. And Minnesota believed him and they released Ralph and Ralph and Gustav Blair, 207 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:57,040 Ralph now took on his name. And another Miller attempted to swindle farmers and landowners out 208 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:04,080 of about $60,000 in Aberdeen, South Dakota. And Gustav Blair was arrested at the Northwestern 209 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:12,160 train depot attempting to flee the city in October of 1920. He was convicted and sentenced for another 210 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:18,160 three years in the state prison in Sioux Falls, South Dakota. So you can see a checkered pass is 211 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:24,240 turning kind of darker and blacker as we go. It surprises me too with how many people it just, 212 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:31,120 the effort it takes to have that criminal activity as opposed to just having an honest living. It 213 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:36,560 just baffles me. Yes, it was very contrived, planned and deliberate. It wasn't like he was 214 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:42,560 accidentally involved in someone else's crime. Seven years after he left prison in South Dakota, 215 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:49,120 Gustav Blair married a woman by the name of Cora Eversall and they had a license to marry in 1929. 216 00:19:49,120 --> 00:19:56,080 And since there was no record that Nelson had divorced his wife and their family of six children, 217 00:19:56,080 --> 00:20:03,040 it's likely this constituted bigamy as well. And based on the records and the research we did, 218 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:08,640 Nelson Miller, as Gustav Blair appears to have committed many other crimes in his pursuit of 219 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,880 the Charlie Ross name, including perjury in the court of law, subordination of perjury by bringing 220 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:21,120 a witness in to testify to lie. Unfortunately, Nelson Miller, Gustav Blair has an extremely 221 00:20:21,120 --> 00:20:27,440 checkered and shameful criminal past. So Gustav went on to take the Ross family to court, 222 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,480 like you had mentioned, with that claim that he was Charlie Ross. And that's where this conversation 223 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:38,240 between you and I came in. What was his motive and why do you think that he was able to convince 224 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:44,080 people that he was Charlie? Well, we have search of that as well. And we believe the motive was 225 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:51,280 money, like most of his life was swindle and cheat and deception and forgery. Before his 1939 trial, 226 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:57,520 Gustav Blair made multiple statements that he had no interest in the Ross fortune. But immediately 227 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:03,200 after the trial, he began pursuing his rightful inheritance as Charlie Ross. The Ross family said 228 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:08,720 there is no fortune to be had. He didn't believe them. He tried to sell his story as a movie. And 229 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:16,560 then as a book, I even have a draft of a book that he had written by a ghostwriter and it's called 230 00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:24,000 My Return from the Dead, the true story of Charles Brewster Ross. Very original. I have the original 231 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:31,600 manuscript and it is a very bad write. Anyway, so Gustav Blair, the new Charlie Ross hired a law firm 232 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:37,680 in Philadelphia to evaluate his legal standing with the Ross family and if he had any possibility 233 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:44,320 of an inheritance and he did not. So despite what he said, he went after the money but got nothing. 234 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:50,880 He traveled the country on a media blitz as well. So Sherlock Holmes and I spent 20 years trying to 235 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:56,480 determine how this happened, why, when and with whom it all came about. Within the Miller family, 236 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:02,880 kind of two theories have been discussed. And one is that Nelson Miller knew all along he was not 237 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:08,240 Charlie Ross, but he collaborated with his two brothers to contrive this story that he thought 238 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:15,600 he could convince a jury was true and it was all for money. The other theory is that Nelson's older 239 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:21,840 brother Lincoln manipulated him and convinced him that he was Charlie Ross. And he was a pawn of his 240 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:28,480 older brother's deception, again motivated for money. So we don't really think Gustav Blair 241 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:34,960 convinced the world he was Charlie Ross, but that's how history actually records. Wow. It was 65 242 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:40,320 years after the kidnapping and the Ross family, they had aged and they had tired and they had 243 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:45,680 accepted the fate of Charlie Ross. They just ignored him. So history in that Maricopa County 244 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:52,960 court room was met with a lot of skepticism, but was reported at the time to have solved the 245 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:58,960 disappearance of Charlie Ross. Right. So we have to remember that his claim went uncontested and the 246 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:05,440 jury only took eight minutes to declare he was Charlie Ross. Wow. So later in 1943, after 247 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:11,680 succumbing to pneumonia and eventually dying, evidently either fully convinced he was Charlie 248 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:20,400 Ross or being unable to admit that he deceived the world. He died and was buried in Arizona 249 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:27,120 under the tombstone, Charles B. Ross. Is that still on the headstone today? It still is. I 250 00:23:27,120 --> 00:23:33,120 visited it. I have a photograph at the headstone pointing at it and saying, this is not Charlie 251 00:23:33,120 --> 00:23:44,400 Ross. Then I put up another mock headstone, which was Nelson Miller. Oh wow. He had to uphold 252 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:50,400 whatever stories he told for a very long time. So that is simply fascinating. His death certificate 253 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:58,400 actually says Charles Brewster Ross. Do you have that? I do. Wow. Goodness. Well, speaking of which 254 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:05,040 then, you had told me recently that you received 65 pounds of documents, writings, photographs, 255 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:11,120 anything from the Gustav Blair, Ralph Blair, which was his son, correct? Right. Have you had an 256 00:24:11,120 --> 00:24:16,720 opportunity to look more into the contents to discover more than what you already know? Well, 257 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:22,320 I have. And we've already established that Gustav Blair is really Nelson Miller and his son Ralph 258 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:28,240 took on his name. So Ralph Blair, there's no record that he legally changed his name, but when he 259 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,440 married, he married as Ralph Blair and had two daughters. And I'm in contact with the one surviving 260 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:38,880 daughter, her name is Twyla. She is my second cousin. Oh wow. Twyla inherited her father's 261 00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:45,760 attempt to write his father's story. What he called was an autobiography of the real Charlie Ross. 262 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:52,240 So Twyla passed on all of those documents to me last fall. And I was hoping to find a smoking gun 263 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:59,280 that might shed some light on when, why, with whom, and how this saga all unfolded. Unfortunately, 264 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:05,040 I did not find a smoking gun after looking through the documents. I'm still looking through 265 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:12,160 hundreds of documents, letters, and photographs. And so far I found collaboration and supportive 266 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:18,400 evidence of our research. Ralph's daughter, Twyla said that she watched her father, he was obsessed 267 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:25,120 trying to write his story before he died. And I have between, I would say, one and 200 pages of 268 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:32,320 handwritten drafts of his effort. Wow. Handwritten. But based on our research, his effort was to write 269 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:38,720 a story, not an autobiography. It's full of fabrication and far from the truth. And at best, 270 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:44,880 we might call it an attempt at historical fiction. I see. You've had publications on what you found 271 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:52,080 from 15 years of research, which I saw from your website, Blair Society, Pennsylvania Myths and 272 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:58,080 Legends. Can you give us more insight on this? Sure. We were interested in getting our story out. 273 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:04,720 So we wrote up a scholarly document, a research document that we were going to attempt to publish 274 00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:11,040 in a number of ways. What we were able to accomplish was we were able to edit the Wikipedia page on the 275 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,720 Charlie Ross kidnapping. And I'm not sure if you're aware of how Wikipedia as a volunteer, 276 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:22,640 online encyclopedia, a free encyclopedia, how that really is created and made. And there's a 277 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:28,080 series of editors and an entire, you would not believe, detailed process for which you have to 278 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:36,560 go through to submit an article. And we were not able to even begin to qualify in that process. 279 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:43,120 But I was able, in kind of a workaround, I was able to modify the Wikipedia page. It's one of 280 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:48,640 the primary sources of information that appears at the top of almost every Google search on Charlie 281 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:55,760 Ross. So I was able to squeeze in the truth, the summary of our research in that document and link 282 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:02,400 it to our webpage. I'd also been in contact with the Blair Society for Genealogical Research. And 283 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:09,440 this is the Blair family, historic family. And they were very interested in and published our 284 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:15,360 entire research report in full. They were very happy to make it clear that Gustav Blair was not 285 00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:22,240 a Blair. And then I got, I was contacted by Kara Hughes and she's an author and she included our 286 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:28,000 research in the Charlie Ross chapter of her second book that she published last fall, 287 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:34,160 Myths and Mysteries of Pennsylvania. Another investigative reporter in New York, Amber Hunt, 288 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:40,160 hosts a podcast that's called Crimes of the Centuries. And she did an episode on Charlie 289 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:46,960 Ross like you did, and I made contact with her. And now she is writing a book with the same title 290 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:52,400 and she's going to cite our research in that book. You don't want to write your own book on this. 291 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:58,640 You've done enough research now. I did, you know, and I began to, I'm not a writer, 292 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:05,280 so I began to contact some writing schools and some resources and was essentially told by a 293 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:11,760 couple of sources that there just wasn't a market for another Charlie Ross book. After Carrie Hagin's 294 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:20,000 book came out, her book is called We Is Got Him. And it's the first line of the first ransom note 295 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:26,800 that the kidnappers wrote to the family. And they said, we is got him, your son, Charles Ross. 296 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:34,480 I legitimately tried to read that ransom note in my podcast and was very unsuccessful. 297 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:42,960 That's right. I remember how bad that English was. And anyway, so it was thought that with 298 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:47,280 Carrie Hagin's book, there just wasn't enough a market for another book on Charlie Ross. So we 299 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:53,120 went to the other routes that we could. We did another podcast on a site called Order of the 300 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:59,200 Jackalope. They did an episode on Charlie Ross, just like you did. That was a phenomenal episode. 301 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:06,480 Yeah. So this is working. It's one way to get our message out. So you might join a list of 302 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:13,040 responsible podcasters and historians to help us correct history. We created our website where you 303 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,480 make contact with us. And we were very lucky that we could secure the domain charlieross.com. 304 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:25,840 Yes. It's all one word, Charlie Ross. And it was available. So we snatched it up. And that's where 305 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:32,160 we were reporting our findings. I was shocked to see that was available. You too. I was. Well, 306 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,840 it seems that you disprove the myths behind Gustav Blair's claims to be Charlie Ross. 307 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:44,000 Do you think this case will ever be put on record as a reverse decision by the courts? 308 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:50,240 Well, you know, the result of the Arizona court ruling is reported in almost all modern accounts 309 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:55,840 of the Charlie Ross kidnapping. And of those 5,000 claims to be him, only one person took 310 00:29:55,840 --> 00:30:02,320 that claim into a court of law. So true. And the impact of the ruling, though, did not change the 311 00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:08,160 Ross family narrative of the kidnapping. And it didn't have any financial or social impact 312 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:14,720 on the surviving descendants. So in 2011, one of the descendants attended a book signing with 313 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:21,360 Kerry Hagan on her book in Philadelphia. I was in contact with Kerry. And unfortunately, our findings 314 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:27,520 were too late to meet the publication deadlines for We Has Got Him. So we didn't make that deadline. 315 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:35,200 But I collaborated quite a bit with her. And she followed up with the Ross descendant and asked him 316 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:41,040 at that time if he would participate in the DNA study and to put an end to all the speculation. 317 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:47,200 And like his grandfather, Walter Ross, he didn't even respond. So it's pretty clear that the Ross 318 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:56,560 family has moved on beyond this generation. Sure. There was a discussion in 1939 that the Arizona 319 00:30:56,560 --> 00:31:03,840 court ruling was legally recognized only in the state of Arizona. Now there was some legal contest 320 00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:09,920 to whether that was true. But since the new Charlie Ross never attempted to use that name in a legal 321 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:16,400 proceeding, it was never tested. So I doubt that the Ross family really has any interest in 322 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:25,520 reopening this sad story. And next year, 2024, will be 150 years after the kidnapping of Charlie Ross. 323 00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:29,920 It doesn't seem that long ago. Where do you think Charlie Ross is today? 324 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:35,680 Well, you know, that's the question that we are still pursuing. He is still lost. And the man 325 00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:42,720 buried under that headstone is Charles B. Ross is not Charlie Ross. So where is he? So I'm going to 326 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:49,680 talk very briefly without going into the research behind it, that there are three theories that I 327 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:54,720 think maybe your audience might be interested in because it leads you somewhere from this discussion. 328 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:59,600 The discussion of Gustav Blair and Nelson Miller is kind of dead end. We know that he's not Charlie 329 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:05,760 Ross. So where is he? We're hoping that through these kinds of discussion, one shred or piece of 330 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:12,000 evidence or information may come out that's never been reported. And we might be able to prove up 331 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:19,840 one of these theories. So the first one is that Charlie Ross was hidden in plain sight and died 332 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:26,560 during his captivity. So this is my best guess. And it also was advanced in Kerry Hagan's book. 333 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:32,720 So Charlie Ross was hidden in plain sight in the family of his kidnapper, Bill and Marsha Moser. 334 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:38,400 It is unlikely that Bill Moser personally hid and cared for a four-year-old child. He had to have 335 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:44,640 accomplice to do that for him. And I believe that was his wife, Martha. After the Mosers became 336 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:50,480 suspect in the kidnapping, the family moved frequently among tenement houses, always ahead 337 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:56,960 of the authorities. They were being tipped off by Martha's brother, who was supposedly working as an 338 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,560 informant with the police, but was secretly telling the Mosers about the investigation. 339 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:09,040 So the Mosers kept on the move. They were hard to trace. They didn't establish neighbor relationships. 340 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:14,320 So no one would notice if another child suddenly appeared in an already large family. 341 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:15,440 So true. 342 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:23,120 Charlie was four years old, and he had a genetic illness that required 24-7 care and supervision. 343 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:29,200 He was on medication for that sickness. And the Ross family made this known when answering one of 344 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:35,520 the ransom notes as a plea to release him. Now, the authorities watched all the pharmacies in the 345 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:41,920 area for anyone who requested that medication, but nobody did. Charlie could have died for lack 346 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:48,800 of treatment at or around the time that the ransom note stopped and before the kidnappers were killed 347 00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:53,840 in December of 1874, six months after the kidnapping. The kidnappers could no longer 348 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:58,480 produce the child because Charlie had died and they stopped trying. 349 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,560 But they kept the facade long enough to try to get the money out of the family. 350 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:08,640 So when Joseph Douglas, Moser's accomplice, he said when he was dying that Moser was in charge 351 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:15,280 of keeping the child. So we believe it's likely that Martha did that for him. And she buried Charlie 352 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:22,000 as one of her own without notice or she secretly discarded the body as she had done earlier with 353 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:27,760 another Moser child. Now that's another story about the child found in the wall of the oyster 354 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:33,040 bar that they owned and operated. That's another whole story. So it's very possible that there was 355 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:39,520 a history that they could conceal a child. So that's the first theory that he died. He was hidden in 356 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:45,760 plain sight and that he died from the illness because he was not treated and he was secretly 357 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:52,000 buried or discarded by the Moser family. The second theory is that Charlie was killed by plan. 358 00:34:52,640 --> 00:35:00,320 It's also possible that his death, we think, was planned from the beginning. That Martha or whoever 359 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:06,720 hid Charlie were instructed to kill Charlie if Moser was captured or killed. Yes. They would be 360 00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:12,480 charged as accomplices and go to prison for the kidnapping themselves. This would have left Martha, 361 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:20,400 her children, as orphans. So no one paid attention when she buried a child without a funeral or a 362 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:27,040 pauper's grave out of the way and out of the attention of the media. She could have actually 363 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:32,800 killed Charlie and buried him as one of her own children again. But given the heightened media 364 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:39,200 coverage after Moser and Douglas were killed, it would be very unlikely or extremely difficult 365 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:45,440 for her or any other accomplice to bury a child publicly around that age. So we believe it's more 366 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:52,160 likely that they secretly disposed Charlie's body. Yeah. And you had mentioned too, it was hiding in 367 00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:58,640 plain sight, easy enough to bring an extra child into the house. Well, how easy is it just to make 368 00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:04,080 them disappear again? Maybe they were just visiting. Exactly. So lots of speculation on that, 369 00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:10,560 I suppose. But you know, something else that you had said too, Moser, who died first in that shootout, 370 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:17,920 right? Yep. I wonder why he never disclosed Charlie's location to Douglas, who was his 371 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:22,720 accomplice. Yeah, that's a really good question. And my speculation about that is he didn't trust 372 00:36:22,720 --> 00:36:29,200 him. The last person you want to trust is a crook. So he didn't want Joseph Douglas to turn on him 373 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:36,480 to snatch the child and go for the ransom himself. Oh, yes, that makes sense. And you mentioned 374 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:41,360 something Deborah, really, that I should have said right up the front, is that this is all 375 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:47,760 speculation. It's been investigated many times, and there is evidence and circumstances that 376 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:55,600 support these theories, but it's all speculation. So the last little theory that I'll end with is 377 00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:01,280 the one that involved the Miller family. And that is, I think this is very unlikely, but it's also 378 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:07,040 possible that a sick Charlie Ross was in fact delivered to the Miller farm in Illinois, 379 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:13,680 where he was supposed to be hidden. But unlike Blair's testimony in court, Charlie did not 380 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:20,400 survive to be raised as Nelson Miller. Instead, he died from this same illness. Now, Nelson, 381 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:29,280 or Gustav Blair in his testimony said that the Miller patriarch had killed a man who was one of 382 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:35,920 the kidnappers when he came to take the child back for the ransom. That man's name was John Hawk. 383 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:42,560 And this is the confession of murder that I was talking about earlier. And so when they killed 384 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:48,720 John Hawk to prevent him from taking the child that they had grown attached to, they buried him 385 00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:57,920 in the backyard of the farmstead. So I went to Lillugin Grove, Illinois, through maps and property 386 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:04,560 transfers and located the homestead of Vernier and Ann Miller, just outside of Dixon, Illinois. 387 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:11,360 And I began looking into hiring cadaver dogs and forensic burial technology to possibly locate the 388 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:18,960 body of a child or an adult male to either prove or disprove this story. Wow. I found the property, 389 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:27,520 the house and the trees had been torn down and the homestead evacuated into or excavated into farmland 390 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:35,680 just six months earlier, making any trace of remains undiscoverable. Oh, wow. What timing. 391 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:41,600 Yep. Just really bad timing. So Charlie Ross is still lost. And we keep looking, as I said, 392 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:47,920 to some shred of evidence that has yet to come forward or that hasn't been disclosed that might 393 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:55,040 tell us where we might find Charlie. We have done an extensive and are still in conversation 394 00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:02,400 with some other investigators on what happened to the Mosier family from the date of their marriage 395 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:08,560 and when they began having children till the death and to Martha Mosier's remarriage. So we're 396 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:14,240 tracing and tracking whether there are some additional burial records of the Mosier family. 397 00:39:14,240 --> 00:39:20,320 And we've found a few. We're still looking. And if anyone listening to this podcast thinks they have 398 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:27,520 any leads or information, we're hoping and they can reach out to charlieross.com and we'll talk 399 00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:33,040 with them. Yeah, that is so fascinating. I really hope Rod that you find the answers you're looking 400 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:40,400 for because you have put so much time, you and Sherlock Holmes, but it has been such a pleasure 401 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:45,840 talking with you today about Charlie Ross and learning about your family history. Clearly, 402 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:51,760 Rod, you have put a lot of work into this and your research. Everybody just needs to go to 403 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:58,400 charlieross.com. So I personally want to thank you for being here today. And for our listeners, 404 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:04,400 you can visit charlieross.com to learn more about Rod's research efforts, where he provides an 405 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:10,800 in-depth look on much of what we talked about today. Be sure to check those out and let me know, 406 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:18,160 or Rod know what you think about this episode. You can DM me personally on Instagram to provide 407 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:25,120 feedback on this podcast, or certainly go to charlieross.com to send Rod a message about the 408 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:31,040 great work that he has done on his family history and getting one step closer to solving that 409 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:37,040 mystery of Charlie Ross. Rod, do you have anything more that you want to add? No, thank you. I just 410 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:43,200 want to thank you so much for being a part of our effort to get the truth out. And you never know 411 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:49,040 from one listener, we might find a lead and we might eventually find out what happened to Charlie 412 00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:54,400 Ross. Yeah, I really do hope for you that you get those answers, but just keep doing what you're 413 00:40:54,400 --> 00:41:01,520 doing. Thank you. Thanks everyone for listening and we will talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to 414 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:07,520 Dying to be Failed, True Crime Podcast and our Dash mini series. Every week, we'll bring you a 415 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:13,760 variety of true crime episodes, a little dash of hope plus special bonus episodes with some really 416 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:19,280 cool guests. Before we go, we'd love for you to share this podcast with your friends and give us 417 00:41:19,280 --> 00:41:26,480 a five star review. Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook and Pinterest at Dying to be 418 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:33,440 Found or visit our website at Dying to be Found.com spelled just like you see it in our logo. Better 419 00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,800 yet, click on our Linktree account found in the show notes where you'll find all the information 420 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:45,440 in one place. Be sure to dash in every Wednesday for our mini episodes plus every Thursday when I 421 00:41:45,440 --> 00:42:03,760 get together with some of my family members. Thanks again everyone and we'll talk to you soon.