1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,040 Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:12,340 Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind. 3 00:00:12,340 --> 00:00:18,560 Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast. 4 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:34,080 Listener discretion is strongly advised. 5 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:38,960 Hi everyone, I'm Deb, your host from Dying to be Found True Crime Podcast. 6 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Thank you so much for choosing our little indie podcast today. 7 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:48,880 I love to say that this is a family thing and today my sister Beth is back to listen to Beth. 8 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:54,640 What I say is a spectacular episode on a case that I have never heard before. 9 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,880 And you just said the same thing right before we came on. 10 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,120 So hang tight. You are really going to want to listen to this. 11 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,320 Gosh, Beth, I'm excited to see you. It has been way too long. 12 00:01:04,320 --> 00:01:06,720 I think almost all summer. How are you? 13 00:01:06,720 --> 00:01:10,920 I'm doing well. Thank you. Yes, it's been a heck of a long time. 14 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,240 It has. So I know you've been really busy. I appreciate you being here today. 15 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,040 You are my family. I always love to catch up with you. 16 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:23,880 But before I get started, I just wanted to talk about growing up in Canada for just a moment. 17 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:31,640 I want to say from what I remember living there, did we have a pretty big United States influence in our lives? 18 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,520 I feel like we did. We did because our family was in the States. 19 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,720 So true. And I don't know if you remember this, but when we moved to that condo in the city, 20 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:45,480 we got our very first cable channels. Do you remember that? No. 21 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,320 You don't remember that little box sitting on the console television? 22 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,840 And we had to go over there and press two rows of buttons to decide which channel we were going to watch. 23 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:58,840 I don't. That's the problem with growing older. 24 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:04,360 Well, I loved it. And I discovered that I loved baseball because I used to watch the Cleveland Indians all the time. 25 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:10,840 Did you? Yeah. And then remember how we used to go across the border to go shopping and things like that? 26 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:18,120 Oh, yes. Yeah. So what comes to mind when I say the word Boston, Massachusetts? 27 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:22,760 The Boston Strangler. Oh, oh, we talked about me doing that, didn't we? 28 00:02:23,640 --> 00:02:26,920 Yeah, I haven't had time. So we're going to go in a different direction today. 29 00:02:26,920 --> 00:02:34,520 Okay. Boston is a city I've always wanted to see and New York and Chicago. 30 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:40,520 Yes. Now I've been to Chicago. Oh, I've been to New York a dozen times. I love that city. 31 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:47,320 It's everything that you see on TV with the big Times Square. Oh, we need to take a trip there. 32 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,800 We do. We need to meet there. Let's do it. Stop talking about it. Let's do it. 33 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:56,360 That would be cool. Okay. So when I think of Boston, believe it or not, 34 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,560 I think of Cheers. Did you ever watch that show? Yes, I sure did. 35 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:06,600 Yeah. It's like an old town and it's just a really cool city. I would love to go there. 36 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:11,240 That's on my bucket list. And today we are going to take a trip to Boston. 37 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,360 Great. And it doesn't even cost me anything. 38 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,160 Well, I don't think that you're going to like this trip because we are, 39 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:23,400 unfortunately, we're going to be talking about a string of murders that occurred 40 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:29,400 back in the 1870s. So hang tight, buckle up. 1870s. Wonderful. 41 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,560 Yes. I know that you like your old stories and I guess that's the Victorian era. 42 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:41,960 I wanted to give a little bit of a disclaimer here before we get started. Yes, we are true crime, 43 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:48,600 but I do want to let our listeners know that there are children involved today. And I am going to 44 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:55,240 try to stay away from anything graphic, but just know ahead of time, I will give you warning when 45 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,040 I do have to talk about a couple of things that, oh goodness, Beth, before we even started recording 46 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:06,520 today, I was telling you how I really try not to be very graphic in what I talk about. But for the 47 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:12,040 purpose of today's conversation, there may be one or two things that I talk about that I will just 48 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,120 warn our listeners ahead of time that you might want to skip ahead for just a couple of minutes. 49 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:23,320 Sounds good. Back in the 1870s, children between the ages of three and nine were being tortured 50 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:29,640 and disfigured with pins, knives, wood blanks, anything, you name it. And when I say wood blank, 51 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:35,800 it's just think of a flat wood that would be used like a baseball bat of sorts. And all this was 52 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,800 happening in the metropolitan area. Of course, back in the 1870s, there was no metropolitan area, 53 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,880 but it was happening around the Boston areas of Chelsea, Dorchester, and Jamaica. So I'm going 54 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:54,760 to go ahead and tell you upfront who the perpetrator was here. His name is Jesse Pomeroy. He was a young 55 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:01,400 lad from the Chelsea area who he was soon discovered to be the assailant of these victims. And Beth, 56 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:08,840 when I say a young lad, I mean that Jesse went on his crime spree between the ages of 12 and 14. 57 00:05:08,840 --> 00:05:18,600 That is so young. My gosh. Very young. He is the youngest serial killer ever to be recorded in 58 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:25,800 history. So he was killing people at 12 years old? He was. Oh, he was, which I'm going to get into 59 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,600 in just a little bit. I wanted to start off though, by giving you a little bit of Jesse's 60 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:37,720 background. He was born on November 29th, 1859 and grew up in a very small town called Chelsea, 61 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:43,400 which is east of Boston, Massachusetts. He was born with a defect on his right eye, 62 00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:50,600 which to my understanding, Beth, I don't think he was blind, but his eye looked like a white marble. 63 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:55,560 That's how some people described it. And he definitely had a very distinct feature that 64 00:05:55,560 --> 00:06:02,200 really could not go unnoticed. What do you know about children who have defects? Oh, they get 65 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:09,960 teased terribly. Absolutely. And unfortunately, Jesse did succumb to that. He was ridiculed not 66 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:17,160 only by other children at school, but by his own father. Oh, you know, when I was putting this 67 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,760 story together, Beth, I kind of get that because I don't know if you remember how chapped my lips 68 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:30,440 used to get when I was a kid. Oh, you were teased relentlessly by family. I sure was. And you know 69 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:36,040 what? I will say this, nobody at school ever teased me, but yes, family members did. And that 70 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:41,320 kind of sticks with me so I can understand the feeling behind all that. And I will say this, 71 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:48,440 your daughter has done a study on chapstick and how it can be addictive, right? Right. That was one 72 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:54,600 thing that mom always said is that you're going to get addicted to that. So she never allowed me to 73 00:06:54,600 --> 00:07:01,480 put chapstick on my lips. And that's why they got as bad as they did. And if any of our listeners 74 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,800 want to know what that looks like, it's just basically just a red rash around the mouth, 75 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:09,880 because when you lick your lips, you think you're moistening them, but you're not. It's just making 76 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:14,040 them drier. So in the winter months, I always had to deal with that. And I'm telling you now, 77 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:20,200 to this day, you will always find chapstick on me. Probably six little tubes. I have it in my 78 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:26,440 bedside table. I put Vaseline on my lips before I go to bed. Yeah. I just do all that. And it's funny 79 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:31,960 because just like two weeks ago at work, I heard somebody say, Hey man, do you have chapstick? 80 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:39,240 Guess what? I did. He wasn't even asking me, but I was like, I heard him say it. I said, 81 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,920 I got you. I got you. I got some chapstick. And I think it was like a flavored cocoa. I was like, 82 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:50,840 hope you don't mind flavored cocoa, but here you go. And I was like, I don't even need it back. 83 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:59,000 All right. Now, besides the constant verbal abuse sustained by his father, Jesse also endured 84 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:05,720 regular beatings from him with a horse whip or a leather belt. Some of the articles that I read 85 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:12,840 said that Mr. Pomeroy was an alcoholic. And I think that you probably know how liquor can 86 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:19,160 alter somebody's mood. Yes, for sure. Jesse's defense mechanisms quickly set in and he began 87 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:27,000 to isolate himself from pretty much everyone at a young age. Now, the problem here is that around 88 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:34,360 the age of 12, despite the amount of bullying that he endured, Jesse became a bully himself. 89 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:41,080 So who do you think he targeted? My guess is family. He did have siblings and I believe he was, 90 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:46,360 I feel like he was the oldest one. He did have at least one sibling. I didn't see much in that 91 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:51,640 writing because everything I read was really on everything that Jesse did from the age of 12 and 92 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:59,240 14. But who he really targeted Beth was younger children, much smaller than him. Oh, poor things. 93 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:05,320 As Jesse became a loner, he was quite keen on reading dime store crime novels that could be 94 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:12,760 compared according to psychiatrists to today's violent video game content. Really? Some of these 95 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:19,720 novels may have given Jesse ideas that eventually led him to act out in his fantasies. But when asked 96 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:25,720 later why he did such horrible things, Jesse really couldn't give a clear explanation. 97 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:32,120 The one person who did try to comfort him as he was growing up was Jesse's mother. I think that 98 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:38,600 she probably saw that he was struggling. He was isolating himself and that's a good thing, right? 99 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:46,520 Nurturing mother trying to comfort her son. Oh, for sure. Well, although mom did her best to 100 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:52,600 console Jesse, she couldn't help but notice when he began torturing and killing small animals. 101 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,920 And Beth, we know what people turn into when they start doing this. Oh, for sure. Big time criminals. 102 00:09:58,920 --> 00:10:05,960 Yes. Well, Jesse's mother wrote this off as her son simply being sad. And I guess I get it because 103 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:13,080 Beth, we all think our children are perfect. Plus this was the mid 1880s. So this was a time before 104 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:18,600 we really knew that this was a trait of known serial killers. Let's take a look at Jeffrey 105 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:24,040 Dahmer here for just a moment. I've seen enough documentaries where his dad entertained Jeff's 106 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:29,880 fascination with animal bones. Yes. Because he thought it was just a young kid being curious 107 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:38,200 about science and he encouraged that. He did. I watched a show recently on it and I'm sure you did 108 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:45,320 too. Really opened up my eyes. Really. It's like I blame the father for a lot of what went on. 109 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:52,600 I don't think it's normal to let a child live in the house by themselves. But when he was younger, 110 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:58,200 I mean, he was probably thinking, oh, this is a great activity that I can spend time with my son 111 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:04,120 doing. I mean, I can't fully blame him for that, but I see what you're saying. Absolutely. Because 112 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:10,760 he encouraged it, right? He sure did. But unknowingly. And that's the thing that I think I just, 113 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:17,240 you know, in his defense, he probably had no idea. And then think about this too, even as late as 114 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:24,200 the 1970s. And today we're talking about the 1800s. You know, there was not a lot of things 115 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:29,560 to keep people occupied. You had to use your imaginations. There's only so many things that 116 00:11:29,560 --> 00:11:34,920 you can do. And obviously back in the 1800s, they didn't have television, they didn't have radio, 117 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,880 anything like that. So you had to use your imagination a little bit more. Exactly. Well, 118 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:47,480 between 1871 and 1872, a total of seven young boys around Chelsea, Massachusetts began getting 119 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:54,280 assaulted both physically and sexually by an adolescent boy. These children were often lured 120 00:11:54,280 --> 00:12:01,560 away by money or candy. The unidentified boy would take the children off to isolated areas, 121 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:06,280 strip them naked and beat them with a rope or strike them in the face with that board that I 122 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:13,160 had mentioned. One boy was tied to a telegraph pole, beaten, maimed and stabbed with a knife. 123 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:20,280 That is just awful. Like I don't even understand how somebody so young can think to do that. 124 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:26,440 Now here's the deal, Beth. We know our brains are not fully developed until what, around the age of 125 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:34,120 25, 26 years old. Bingo. I was just told that. Oh, really? Yes. Yeah. This is honestly, 126 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:39,720 no offense to my audience that might be listening, but I do have to kind of say that to myself 127 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:49,320 sometimes when these kids act the way they do. Anyway, so the Boston Globe, which is a very big 128 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:55,080 newspaper outlet, got wind of what was happening in Chelsea and quickly labeled this attacker as 129 00:12:55,080 --> 00:13:01,800 the boy fiend because the children who were being attacked were able to at least give a description 130 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:08,600 of this child. They knew that he was probably an adolescent. So the Boston Globe labeled him as 131 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:14,440 the boy fiend. Well, eventually, let me just tell you this, Jesse's mother sold newspapers at her 132 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:20,120 place of business. At the time she was running a five and dime store, which I think that's probably 133 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,240 where he got those books from that he was reading, but she also sold newspapers. Imagine her surprise 134 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:31,800 back when she opened the paper one morning and recognized the description of this child perpetrator 135 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:39,080 as her own son, Jesse. That's pretty horrific. I mean, to open up a newspaper and recognize your 136 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:44,680 own child. Yeah. I don't think there was a picture of him, but the description with his eye defect 137 00:13:44,680 --> 00:13:52,360 definitely gave him away. Of course, Jesse's mom did as most protective mothers would do. She 138 00:13:52,360 --> 00:14:01,720 uprooted the family and booked it to South Boston, a whole 4.6 miles or 7.4 kilometers away, which I 139 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,080 guess back in the 1870s, it was a pretty long distance back then. Well, it must have been if 140 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:14,680 she uprooted them, but it might, gosh, it's just not enough. No. And I told you I've moved out to 141 00:14:14,680 --> 00:14:20,680 the boondocks and now I have to drive six miles to the grocery store. And that's a long way to me. 142 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:28,760 All right. On February 21st, 1872, after the Pomeroy family settled into a flat on Broadway 143 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:35,400 street in South Boston, Mrs. Pomeroy set up a dress shop in town and everything went back to normal, 144 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:41,800 or as normal as it could be with an abusive husband in the household. But I read from multiple 145 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:49,000 sources, Beth, it's not really clear either Mr. and Mrs. Pomeroy at this point in time, but I 146 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:54,840 think Mrs. Pomeroy at this point in time were separated or she had just become a widow. I'm 147 00:14:54,840 --> 00:15:00,920 not really clear on that fact. So I'm not sure he's actually in the picture right now. I did my best 148 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:06,920 to find that if our listeners have any feedback, I would love to hear that DM us on Instagram, 149 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,560 but either way, she seemed to be the active parent in the household. So we're going to move into 150 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:19,160 September of 1872. So we went from winter time into the fall. So six months have passed. And I 151 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:25,080 had mentioned some of Jesse's victims earlier and the torture they endured. So the Pomeroy's 152 00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:33,240 settled into South Boston and it was September of 1872 that a small boy was tied to a telegraph pole 153 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:39,720 and tortured. Interesting that these articles are saying telegraph pole. Yes. So that is around when 154 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:46,760 Jesse was a child was tortured, unfortunately, but I will say luckily he did survive and was able to 155 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:52,600 give police a description of the perpetrator. He had a very distinct eye, something which looked 156 00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:59,240 like a marble. Of course, not too many people fit this description except Jesse Pomeroy, a relatively 157 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:06,360 new resident in town. Jesse was quickly apprehended and sentenced to six years in juvenile detention. 158 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:12,600 Do you remember when the new jail was being built in the town that we lived in and dad took us on a 159 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:20,760 tour? Yes. I found that to be very fascinating. Did you like that tour? Yes. And I even got to tour 160 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:28,040 the old, old one. Really? Yeah. Dad took me there. Oh, did he ever lock you in a cell? Yes. 161 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,400 Yeah. He did the same thing to me. I think he was trying to scare us straight because we didn't want 162 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:41,160 to end up there. I think pretty much. Yeah. So Jesse went off to juvenile detention and he only 163 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:47,720 ended up serving 17 months before he was released for good behavior. However, it didn't seem that 164 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:54,520 Jesse learned his lesson because only within one month of being released, he struck again. And this 165 00:16:54,520 --> 00:17:00,440 is going to lead us into 1874, Beth, just because he did spend time behind bars. Remember that he 166 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:05,880 was off the streets for just a spell. So I'll just call that his cooling off period while he was in 167 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:13,960 juvie. I mean, obviously he didn't cool off, but by March 8th, 1874, 10 year old Katie Mary Coran 168 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:19,400 went missing. Now remember I had told you that Jesse's mom had opened a dress shop in Boston. 169 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:25,880 Katie had gone in to buy some supplies and was never seen again. A $500 reward was placed in the 170 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:31,800 newspaper, but no one ever came forward to claim it. And Beth, just so you know, that's about 171 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:41,800 $12,585 US dollars or $16,995 Canadian dollars today. That's a lot of money. It truly is. 172 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:49,160 On April 22nd, 1874, two boys set out to play at the beach in South Boston for the day. They had 173 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,960 plans of going clamming. I just told you, kids use your imagination. Have you ever gone clamming? 174 00:17:53,960 --> 00:18:00,200 Yes. When I lived on PEI. Oh, did you catch clams? I did, but you had to be careful because 175 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:07,960 their razor clams would give you cuts, very like a paper cut. Oh, you just dig them with your hands 176 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,800 or the right way to do it is to get with a shovel, but we just used to do it with the hands. And then 177 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:20,840 you'd have a little steamed clam dinner. Oh, that's amazing. Well, the boys miscalculated the 178 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:27,160 tide waters and found it impossible to catch clams that day. So instead they did as kids do. 179 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:33,000 They were using their imagination and they decided to go exploring. What they found Beth was quite 180 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:38,760 horrific. Before I continue, Beth, I had mentioned I was going to give a disclaimer that what I'm 181 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:44,840 about to say is graphic and it does include harm to a child. To our listeners, if you want to skip 182 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,640 ahead probably about 15 seconds, you'll get the gist, but you don't have to listen to it. I just 183 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:54,840 wanted to throw that out there. During their explorations, the two boys came across a sweet 184 00:18:54,840 --> 00:19:00,280 little four-year-old boy named Horace Millen. He was lying dead in a muddy marshy ditch. 185 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:07,560 Horace had been stabbed 31 times all over his entire body. Plus it appeared that somebody had 186 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:15,080 attempted to set him on fire. Dear Lord. Beth, while I was doing my research, I found such a 187 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:21,560 beautiful picture of little Horace Millen. He's the sweetest little boy with a curly blonde hair. 188 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:26,600 And for a moment I thought in the picture he was sleeping, but until I actually looked at the 189 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:33,000 caption, then I saw his name. This in itself is where I say Jesse Pomeroy is a monster. 190 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:39,720 Yeah, I can see and I can envision that's just horrific that a child could do that. 191 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:42,200 Yes. And that's what I don't get. 192 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,560 Because I don't think we see that kind of thing these days. Do we? Somebody so young? 193 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:53,960 No, never. This is the only case that I've ever heard of with a child so young. Not to say that 194 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,840 other people are not out there. I mean, especially with these people who start with small animals, 195 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:00,200 you know? Right. 196 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:08,600 It does start in childhood, but then progressing to human beings that young, that's nothing less 197 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:13,640 than a monster here on earth. Police were called to the scene immediately. And during their 198 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:19,800 investigation, they found two witnesses who had said that they were near the spot around noon that 199 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:26,440 day where Horace was discovered. They noticed a tall young boy running away from that area. Jesse 200 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:31,240 was quickly arrested. He was wearing the same clothes that he had on when he attacked little 201 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:37,880 Horace. He had blood on his shirt and pants and his shoes had mud on them from that marsh where 202 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:44,360 footprints were left behind. So they were able to match that up. Well, clearly he does have mental 203 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:50,760 problems because he didn't have the foresight to take care of that clothing instead of, you know, 204 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:55,800 leaving it on. Yeah. And I don't know how much time had passed, but if the boys found Horace 205 00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:03,240 very quickly, we have a trail of smoking guns here. But guess what Jesse did? He denied, denied, 206 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:07,000 denied, ever hurting anyone. Ridiculous, ridiculous. 207 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,080 It is. But here's the thing, Beth, in the next breath, he told police that he couldn't help 208 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:17,880 himself. So that shows you his mentality of a 12 year old. Actually at this time, I think he was 209 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:25,400 14, but still, I mean, around that age, you're still a child. Of course, once he was arrested, 210 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:31,880 many people speculated that his abusive upbringing and his constant bullying due to his birth defect 211 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:37,480 were contributing factors to his acting out. What do you think of that? I'm convinced so too. 212 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:43,240 You think so? Yeah. I mean, I suppose it can shape you a little bit into who you are, but I'm going 213 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:48,200 to say it. Some of it had to have been ingrained in him. Oh yeah. But you're right. If he's enduring 214 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:52,280 that, it might be more understanding in just a little bit, because I'm going to let some 215 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:58,280 psychiatrists weigh in here in just a bit. So it'll make sense. All right. It seems that Mrs. 216 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,560 Pomeroy could not take the public scrutiny of what Jessie had done to several children in that 217 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:11,480 community. So by July, 1874, she had moved out of Broadway street in South Boston. Honestly, she's on 218 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:17,640 the run too, because she took her son from Chelsea down to South Boston. Soon after the new tenants 219 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:23,320 moved in, they began to work on some home improvement projects. As the new owners began to 220 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:29,320 excavate the cellar, Beth, they discovered the remains of a little girl under a pile of ashes 221 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:37,880 and rubble. No. Yes. The parents of Katie Coran were called to identify the corpse, which they 222 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:43,960 had affirmed based on the outfit that Katie had been wearing the day she disappeared. Back in March 223 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,320 of that same year, Katie had been brutally stabbed to death before Jessie hid her in the cellar. 224 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:56,440 Oh my. I guess I'm kind of wondering where is Mrs. Pomeroy at? Because if little Katie went in to get 225 00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:04,200 supplies, how did Jessie intervene? That's my question here. Poor little girl. So now I'm going 226 00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:10,600 to lay out some layman and expert opinions here. As far as the general public, people like you and 227 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:16,120 me, Beth, believe that Jessie was influenced by those crime books that he was reading back when he 228 00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:22,920 was 12. Remember, I compared that with today's video games. Again, this was the 1800s, so things 229 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:29,000 were a little bit different, but oh, I'm here to say, Beth, you and I grew up with Nancy Drew, 230 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:34,280 the Hardy Boys, the Bobsy Twins, not to... You're smiling. Those were really good books. 231 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:42,440 I guess they were. Not to mention those were always turned into TV shows, right? Yes. Look 232 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:48,840 what we're doing now. We're talking true crime, but we're not acting on it. Exactly. Okay. So 233 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:54,520 here's another interesting tidbit. The gossip mill surrounding this case suggested that Jessie 234 00:23:54,520 --> 00:24:00,760 acquired the taste for blood in utero because his mother had stopped by the local slaughterhouse 235 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:06,200 where her husband worked at the time while she was pregnant with Jessie. Have you heard of such a 236 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:11,880 thing? No, I don't believe in that. I don't believe that either. That makes no sense to me, 237 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:17,880 but it's the 1800s. When voodoo dolls were used. Absolutely. Well, here's another angle, 238 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,080 and it actually came from Jessie's own mother. Around the time Jessie was born, remember he was 239 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:31,240 born in 1859, Boston was experiencing a smallpox epidemic that came and went in waves. Beth, I 240 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:36,840 think that you and I can put this into perspective. Our listeners can do the same because we can relate 241 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:45,960 with COVID. Yes. So everybody was being probably very cautious and health risks were high. So when 242 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:52,360 Jessie was just a couple of weeks old, he received a smallpox vaccination. Unfortunately, Beth, 243 00:24:52,360 --> 00:25:00,760 he was left with weeping sores all over his body for several months. Oh, that poor thing. I know. 244 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:07,640 Now he was only a couple of weeks old when he got this shot. So Jessie's mother claimed that she was 245 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:13,800 unable to touch him due to the severe pain that he endured anytime she tried. And this is kind of 246 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:19,880 what reminded me too, when I was young, I used to get the most severe strep throat in the world, 247 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:26,520 and I would get those welts in my throat. Yes, you did. Truly. That was probably the most pain 248 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,320 I have ever endured in my life because even with penicillin and stuff, that would last for a good 249 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:38,040 two weeks. So I get that when Jessie was touched and he had those welts on him, I think the 250 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:45,320 combination of the effects of that vaccination plus not experiencing a mother's bond could very 251 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:51,160 well have created Jessie's separation and isolation traits since birth. What do you think of that? 252 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:57,480 Yeah, I totally agree with that. I do too 100% because they say that the mother's bond is 253 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:03,480 extremely important. Experts seem to agree with this concept, just like you and me, Beth, 254 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:09,720 saying that Jessie's trauma at a young age and detachment factors contributed to his impulsive, 255 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:16,040 violent and psychopathic tendencies. Yeah, so that's definitely a theory I can buy into. 256 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:23,800 I'm not going to buy into the in utero. Yeah, that's craziness. Yeah, but I am not a scientific 257 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:29,160 expert in any way, shape or form. I'm just going to let you know what my theory is that I can buy 258 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:36,200 into. By the end of the year in December, 1874, Jessie Pomeroy went on trial at the ripe old age, 259 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:42,600 Beth of 14 for the murder of Horace Millen. And because Jessie straight up said he didn't know 260 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:49,240 why he did these things, his attorneys used this in his defense. Jessie's lawyers argued immoral 261 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:55,560 insanity, stating that he had an irresistible impulse to torture and kill. To me, Beth, 262 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:02,120 it just amazes me what lawyers will use in defense to get their clients off. I know that's their job, 263 00:27:02,120 --> 00:27:07,960 but is it ethical? Somebody's got to defend them, right? Somebody does have to, but maybe, 264 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:16,200 you know what, going back to 1874, perhaps that is what they honestly believed back then because 265 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,960 they didn't have all the modern and scientific evidence. You're right. And you know, that has 266 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:28,280 come over time. Absolutely. I agree with you with that. Sure. On the flip side, prosecutors stated 267 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:34,920 that Jessie had acted with premeditation and knew exactly what he was doing. In fact, the state 268 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:41,080 argued that Jessie Pomeroy was completely sane when he committed his crimes and he simply found 269 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:47,160 pleasure in torturing those who were too small to defend themselves. Ultimately, Jessie was found 270 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:54,040 guilty and sentenced to death. He was the youngest person in Massachusetts history to ever sit on 271 00:27:54,040 --> 00:28:02,760 death row. Oh my gosh. Sentenced to death? I mean, he's not a nice kid. He isn't. Obviously, 272 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:09,400 we're not supposed to be lenient towards, you know, such a monster, but it just seems, 273 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:15,480 I just had to gasp when you told me that. Yeah, that's a shocking factor. Absolutely. Now, 274 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:21,400 Jessie's lawyers appealed his sentence and his case was sent to the Supreme Court on February 12th, 275 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:28,120 1875. The higher courts agreed with his death penalty, Beth. Geez. Well, let me tell you who 276 00:28:28,120 --> 00:28:34,920 didn't agree with this death penalty. Please do. The Massachusetts governor at the time refused 277 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:41,000 to sign Jessie's death warrant stating that his punishment was entirely too severe for such a 278 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,880 young offender. So apparently, even though it goes through the courts, it's the governor that has to 279 00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:52,520 sign off on all of this. And the next governor of Massachusetts also agreed with his predecessor 280 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:59,320 and refused to sign Jessie's death warrant. Instead, Jessie was sentenced to solitary confinement 281 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,240 for the rest of his life. And he was sent to Charlestown State Prison to serve out his sentence. 282 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,840 Wow, Beth, solitary confinement. That means he doesn't interact with anybody in the prison 283 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,120 system. I think that's a better... Do you though? Because doesn't that drive people mad? Well, 284 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:22,120 it does, but he deserved it. Absolutely. I suppose if he's going to serve a life sentence, 285 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,920 I mean, that would probably in itself be severe punishment. Me personally, you know I'm a social 286 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:33,000 person. I don't think I could handle that. Yeah, I couldn't either. Well, Jessie certainly had a lot 287 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:39,240 of time to think because he is not interacting with anybody. And during his time in solitary 288 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:45,080 confinement, Jessie attempted to escape at least 12 times. How in the world would that happen? 289 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:51,000 Probably he tried to run out. Maybe, but I will say this. I don't know where he got the supplies 290 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:59,640 from, but Jessie created a gas explosion that was intended to blow his cell door open. Oh my gosh. 291 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,440 And it worked, Beth, only a little bit too well. Jessie was knocked out from the blast 292 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:11,400 and never made his escape. Oh my gosh. That is amazing. I know. Like where do he get these 293 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:16,600 supplies from? Exactly. All right. There's something interesting that I know that you are 294 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:22,600 going to appreciate, Beth, because we've talked about this before. At the height of his notoriety, 295 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:29,640 Madame Tussaud created a wax figure of Jessie Pomeroy and featured it in her special gallery 296 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:36,040 set up with murderers and ghouls. What do you think of that? That is very interesting. It is. Now, 297 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:41,720 if any of our listeners are not familiar with Madame Tussaud, she founded the first wax museum 298 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:49,240 in 1835 and it was a major attraction during the Victorian era. She did quite well with this because 299 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:55,640 she developed its main attraction called the Chamber of Horrors. And Beth, we are all fascinated, 300 00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:01,720 unfortunately, with the grim side of life. We are. And I'm going to say that truly goes back to the 301 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,560 beginning of time, but I know when I was a child, wax museums were a really big thing. They certainly 302 00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:15,400 were. Well, in 1917, at the age of 58, Jessie's solitary confinement was commuted and he was 303 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:21,640 finally placed in the general population in prison where he appeared to be a model prisoner. After 304 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:28,760 all, Beth, he had spent the majority of his adult life by himself. So what did he do to take up that 305 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:35,640 time? He began educating himself. Jessie learned six languages and wrote poetry, which was featured 306 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:42,280 during prison talent shows. He even challenged prison officials with his legal rights as a prisoner. 307 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:49,560 Wow. I know. By 1929, when his health began to fail, Jessie was eventually transferred to the 308 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:56,280 Bridgewater Hospital for the Criminally Insane. During his stay, guards discovered saw blades and 309 00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:04,920 other tools in his possession. Obviously, Jessie continued to plot and think. Jessie died in 1932 310 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:11,880 from a heart attack while he was in prison. He was 74 years old. And Beth, that is the story of Jessie 311 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:18,360 Pomeroy, the youngest serial killer on record. Well, thank you for that. That was a very 312 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:26,520 interesting story. I didn't expect to hear anything from a 12 to 14 year old and his antics. 313 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:31,720 Jeez. I know. I couldn't believe this when I came across this story. I was like, 314 00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:37,640 oh, I got to tell Beth this one. Yes, I'm glad you did. So Deb, do you have a teachable moment for us? 315 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:42,920 Beth, I always have a teachable moment. I know it's getting a lot harder for criminals to get away 316 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:50,520 with things these days with DNA and so much more accessible camera footage everywhere you turn. But 317 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,640 one thing that we know is that human behavior hasn't changed very much over time. People are 318 00:32:55,640 --> 00:33:00,840 going to do bad things. And the one thing that struck me here while I was doing my research, 319 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:07,640 Beth, is how Jessie's mom knew well ahead of time that he was harming small animals. That's really 320 00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:14,360 what struck me here. To me, that's a big red flag. Obviously back in the 1870s, it probably was not, 321 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:20,200 but I've mentioned that psychiatrists had weighed in on Jessie's mental capacities after he was 322 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:26,760 caught. Not to mention that hospitals were pretty well established at the time. There were definitely 323 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:32,600 resources back during Jessie's era as far as getting help with their mental health and even 324 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,920 treatment in hospital facilities. Now, I know that no one wants to believe that their own child is 325 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:45,640 capable of doing the unthinkable. But if something stands out today, like excessive bullying or 326 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:52,600 harming small, helpless animals, it's important to get help because these things just are not normal. 327 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:58,840 And that's my teachable moment. Well, that was a very good one. Why thank you. All right. Well, 328 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:04,680 we would love to receive feedback from our listeners on this storyline or any of our other 329 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,840 episodes. Be sure to DM us on Instagram and check back with us next Thursday for a new episode of 330 00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:16,680 Dying to be Found. Talk to you soon. And that's a wrap. That is a wrap. Thanks for listening to 331 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:22,200 Dying to be Found. Before we go, we would love for you to leave a review on your favorite podcast 332 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,960 platform. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to 333 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:34,840 be Found. You can access our website, email, social media, and storyline request form by clicking on 334 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:40,360 our Linktree account found in our show notes. If you like our episodes, consider buying us a coffee 335 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:46,600 at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Dying to be Found spelled just like you see it on our logo. Feel free to 336 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:52,280 message us on Instagram and let us know how we're doing. With that, be sure to check us out every 337 00:34:52,280 --> 00:35:20,440 Thursday wherever you get your podcasts. We will talk to you all next week. Bye.