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Hi everyone, this is Deb from Dying to be Found.

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Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.

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Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this podcast.

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Listener discretion is strongly advised.

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Hi everyone, this is Deb, your host from the True Crime Podcast, Dying to be Found.

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Welcome to The Dash, a special collection of true crime stories that I hope will help you get through at least one way of your commute today.

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When I first put this series together, I wanted to break out of our regular routine by adding short little snippets of solved true crime cases,

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plus hopefully a little bit more uplifting because, you know, sometimes they're just not.

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If you've been listening to The Dash this far in, you know that I definitely have a diverse group of podcasters.

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And today I have Ashley and Alicia here from the Murd Nerds.

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Hi guys.

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Hello.

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How are you?

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I'm a little chilly.

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You guys are sounding a little shy.

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I know you're not shy because we just had this really great conversation.

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We got to warm up a little bit.

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This is our first episode of the night.

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So once you hit record, it still always sets in a little bit.

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It does.

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The way you.

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Yeah, oh, yeah, sure.

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Does. Yeah.

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Well, I'm so glad to see you again.

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A couple of months ago, I know that we talked.

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I actually interviewed on your show, which was really cool.

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And believe it or not, that inspired me to do what we're doing today.

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Get podcasters on here, see what your podcast is all about and, you know, just kind of get a little jumpstart here.

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So thank you for being here today.

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I am really excited.

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Thanks for having us.

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All right. This is how it works today.

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What I do is I have a little mini interview to ask you guys about Murd Nerds.

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Sounds easy, right?

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We like talking about ourselves.

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Yeah.

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All right. Well, then when we're done, I'll dash into my storyline.

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D, B, two, F style.

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And just like you here with me and my family members, I get to tell you a story.

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And hopefully, you guys, you don't know this.

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I'm going to try to make you cry.

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Oh, no. Oh, gosh.

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I'm so easy.

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Same. I'm a big baby.

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Commercials, man.

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Oh, right. I had a commercial.

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Yeah. And sad music and puppy dogs behind bars.

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No, I'm just kidding. I'm not going to try to make you cry.

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I just happen to do that with my daughter, Shelby.

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I don't know why it is, but I can get her to cry easy.

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I think it's just the way that I tell stories sometimes.

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But I'll do my best not to make you cry. I was just messing with you.

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OK, good. No deals.

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All right. So I just wanted to start off and ask you guys, how do you know each other?

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And what made you decide to start a podcast together?

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So I will let Alicia take the meat of this one.

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Oh, my gosh. She should have known.

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I moved to a new school in my seventh grade year in the middle of seventh grade.

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Right at Thanksgiving.

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And my parents were friends with people that lived in the town we were moving to.

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So they would take me to visit and make friends, essentially.

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And I met Ashley at a football game.

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I literally wrote that. Did you really?

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I wrote I remember the first time we met and hung out.

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And it was at an away football game in your Avril days.

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Yeah. In seventh grade.

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And I was like basic to the max until I met her.

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And then we kind of mixed each other up a little bit and became who we are now.

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Yeah, we're inseparable.

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That is a great story. I love that.

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If you've heard me enough, you know, I'm real sentimental and I love my family.

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And I don't have those roots like you guys do.

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But friendships, once you get that connection.

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Yeah, there's loyalty there. I get that.

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Right. And it grounds you.

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Mm hmm. Absolutely. Yeah.

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What made you guys decide to start a podcast together?

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So the funny thing about that is I've been like secretly a big true crime

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for a really long time and always thought it was kind of weird

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because I think it's kind of something that people hear.

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And they're like, you like learning about people's murders and.

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Right. Like it's OK now.

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Yeah. Back then, it was like taboo to be a true crime.

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I don't want to say fan because you don't write it.

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But being interested in something like that.

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And I had told Ashley, which for years we have always said

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we need our own TV show and we tried to do YouTube at one point.

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And it didn't.

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Ashley Shalitman productions.

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Yeah, it didn't go well.

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But I was like, we should start a podcast.

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And she's like, yeah, what should we start it about?

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And I'm like, well, I listen to a lot of true crime podcasts.

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And she's like, I like true crime.

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And I'm like, is this happening right now?

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Good for you.

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Well, how do you guys decide on your storylines?

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How do you start on your stories?

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Well, it's definitely evolved over the past year and a half.

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We get a lot of listener suggestions and I like to sift through those

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every time I'm picking just to see if there's any that I want to look into.

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But other than that, if I hear a story, I throw the name on my list.

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I've got like four or five pages in my Google Docs just full of names

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and I just sift through and kind of pick one at random, honestly,

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and really and look into it and like, OK, I want to tackle this story this week.

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Or I want to save that for another time.

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I'm going to look into a different name type of thing.

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Why do you save it, though?

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What makes you put that aside?

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I've done that, too.

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And I've had suggestions.

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As a matter of fact, with my season one finale, I had that suggested

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to me months ago, I just simply was not ready to.

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I had to put that aside and I knew I was going to at some point make that my finale.

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Is it the vibe of the story?

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Yeah, I don't know.

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It just depends on how much meat is there, how close it hits to home for you.

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I think.

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And actually, nowadays I have a younger girl.

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She's like 20.

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She helps me.

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She researches and she writes.

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And then I just kind of go through and I rewrite a lot sometimes.

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Sometimes I just read it out exactly how she writes it.

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It just depends on how much time I have and how much I relate to the way she writes it.

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And so that helps a lot.

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Oh, absolutely.

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Especially if you have that help and you're doing other things.

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And we all work full time jobs.

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Yeah.

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Now, Alicia, how about you?

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So I have a list as well that I've compiled over the what?

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We've been doing this for a year, a little over a year.

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Yeah.

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We started in September.

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I think a year and a half as far as starting to plan it out in reality.

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You know how it is.

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It takes so long to plan it out.

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It does.

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But I follow a lot of Reddit forums and different Facebook groups.

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And sometimes there's just a case that stands out.

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And I'm a sucker for anything with a twist or that doesn't make sense that I need to dissect.

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Yeah, she does that a lot.

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Yeah.

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I like to write cases and write episodes that are, you think you know where it's headed

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or you're not expecting something to turn out the way it does.

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But like you said, I just had a case the other day that I was writing and I had it on the

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back burner for a while and I didn't want to deal with it.

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Like as awful as that sounds, I couldn't handle it or it wasn't speaking to me.

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So I put it down and then I started another one that was like, I don't know, just call

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him a name.

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Yeah.

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It's weird how cases just jump out to you sometimes.

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We both do that a lot where we'll have everything almost ready and then two days before we're

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supposed to record, we completely flip the script and write a whole new episode.

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I don't know why.

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It just happens.

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Like something just syncs to you and you're just like, I have to do this one.

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This is the one I have to do.

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Yeah.

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Do you guys ever find when you're doing your research, you actually find another case within

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that case and then you go and look up that case?

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There's a couple that I found.

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I have never actually gone to investigate the cases that I've come across that way,

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but I wondered if other people did as well.

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Yeah.

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It's usually unsolved because when they're unsolved, people tend to speculate.

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Yes.

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A lot of time the speculation will involve a serial killer and then you learn about all

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these other people that felt a tragedy to this serial killer, but it could have also

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been this person because they did this to this person.

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It's like, oh my gosh.

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Yeah.

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I did that with the Brandy case.

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That's how I found out about Darlene Hulse.

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Right.

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And you linked all those together.

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Yeah.

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Crazy.

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It's crazy.

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Or even we've done episodes where there are shorter stories.

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Like I did animals that kill.

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Stop laughing.

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Well, because then I did animals that save lives.

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Yeah.

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Because we do no Murder November where we don't tell any stories.

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I remember those.

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When I was researching about all these animal attacks, I found one that was just a very

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large story that was super interesting.

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And I'm like, I'm going to save this one and not include it in the animal attack, which

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maybe at one point.

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I was going to say she hasn't done that one yet.

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It's about a chimpanzee and I have an irrational fear of chimpanzees.

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Really?

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Oh wow.

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Yeah.

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She always has.

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I remember.

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Yeah.

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You always have monkeys, anything like that.

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They freak me out.

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They look too human, right?

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They take one or two chromosomes away from us.

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Yeah.

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Science.

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They're hands, man.

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If you knew then what you know now, what advice would you give someone who's just starting

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out on a podcast?

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And it doesn't have to be true crime.

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It could be any type of podcast.

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What kind of advice could you give?

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Go ahead.

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Okay.

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I would say have your first 10 to 20 episodes written and ready to record or recorded before

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you start promoting because that was actually our goal at the beginning.

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We wanted to have, I think we set a goal of six or something.

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It was pretty small to have recorded before we started actually posting.

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Well, we got our first one recorded and we posted it that night.

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We were so high on that.

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We were like, oh my gosh, let's just do it.

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And then we were screwed.

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We were like, oh my gosh, we don't have anything for next week.

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What are we supposed to do?

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We would record on Fridays, edit on Fridays and release on Fridays for six weeks straight.

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We did that and it was really hard.

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How in the world?

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Yeah.

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It was like, I mean- It was poorly done.

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I don't know about you guys, maybe because I'm an over thinker, it takes me a good six

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hours to edit.

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Yeah.

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She would sit on my couch and I would just sit there and edit and it was a lot.

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We would take turns.

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I have a video of you getting frustrated.

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Oh my gosh.

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Yeah.

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She used to go, uh, where was I?

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I would go, um, so I would suck my teeth and say, um, and so.

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I said it so much.

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I still do it a lot.

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You can ask Jeremy.

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You say the word so?

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Oh, all the time.

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I write it in my script all the time too.

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It's just, it's the way my brain works.

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I think we all have a phrase or something, those filler words.

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We all have them and so is one of my words, but I do always edit it out because I find

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myself saying it too much.

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Yeah, but you know what I noticed?

250
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,120
Cause it was something I was really self-conscious about and I did edit out a lot when I was

251
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,120
doing the editing.

252
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:15,440
Jeremy, when we first started recording with him was editing a lot of them out and eventually

253
00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:18,960
at some point he was like, all right, I can't keep doing this.

254
00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:19,960
And nobody really noticed.

255
00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:20,960
Yeah.

256
00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:21,960
That's what I found.

257
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:24,320
I would try and get ahead of it and say, I say, um, so much.

258
00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,600
And then people who listen will be like, I never even noticed.

259
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,560
I think we become immune to it when we're listening to it.

260
00:11:30,560 --> 00:11:31,560
We don't notice it.

261
00:11:31,560 --> 00:11:32,560
So yeah.

262
00:11:32,560 --> 00:11:33,560
Yeah.

263
00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:35,720
I'm all about the storytelling.

264
00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:37,200
I don't notice all that other stuff.

265
00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:38,420
I mean, right, right.

266
00:11:38,420 --> 00:11:41,380
And I think that's most people that listen, especially to true crime.

267
00:11:41,380 --> 00:11:46,240
It's about the content and I think a lot with all podcasts is about the chemistry with the

268
00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:50,520
hosts and it's just not, you know, that's one of my other filler words.

269
00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,600
I say, you know, all the time, but it's like trying to relate to people.

270
00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:56,600
You know?

271
00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,600
Oh, absolutely.

272
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,600
I mean, we're having a conversation.

273
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:00,600
Absolutely.

274
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:01,600
Right.

275
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:02,600
Yeah.

276
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:04,800
How do you guys balance work, life and podcasting?

277
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:05,800
It's easy for me.

278
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:11,120
I don't have any kids, ergo, I don't have a life.

279
00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:12,120
I'm the same way.

280
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,040
It's easy when you don't have those distractions.

281
00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:15,040
Yeah.

282
00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:16,040
It's not too bad for me.

283
00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,040
I mean, I've got stuff going on.

284
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:20,720
I'm always busy, but I can always make time for it because it's priority.

285
00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:21,720
So yeah.

286
00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:22,960
Distractions, you say.

287
00:12:22,960 --> 00:12:24,520
I got four kids.

288
00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:25,520
Yes.

289
00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,080
I call those drop and roll days because you got to get everybody to the ballpark and they're

290
00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:30,680
all at different ballparks.

291
00:12:30,680 --> 00:12:33,160
You just have so much going on when you got kids in the house.

292
00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:34,160
I get that.

293
00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:38,320
And we've got a 13 year old, a 10 year old, a four year old and a two year old.

294
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,680
So and I work nights and my husband works days.

295
00:12:42,680 --> 00:12:45,240
So yeah, it's nuts.

296
00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:50,400
So there's been times where I've worked because I work five days a week, but I work on Saturdays.

297
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,400
It's my longest shift.

298
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:56,240
I work from open to close and there's been times which I hope my boss isn't listening,

299
00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,720
but I've wrote a paper at work because I have no time and I don't sleep.

300
00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:01,720
Like I don't sleep a lot.

301
00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:02,720
I was.

302
00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:03,720
Yeah.

303
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,360
I was getting at one point three to four hours of sleep a night.

304
00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:08,440
So these watches really tell you a lot.

305
00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,040
I average, I average 4.4 hours a night.

306
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:13,400
I didn't even know that.

307
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,120
I've been wearing it for two weeks.

308
00:13:15,120 --> 00:13:16,120
Wow.

309
00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,760
I'm like, that's not good.

310
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:18,760
No, that's not good.

311
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:19,760
You know what?

312
00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:25,000
I have that analog old fashioned watch that I don't keep up with that stuff.

313
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,740
I know my patterns and I've had enough of those smartwatches to tell me what I should

314
00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:30,920
or should not be doing.

315
00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,080
You're like, I don't want to know that I only got four hours of sleep because that makes

316
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,080
it more stressful.

317
00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,080
It messes with your head.

318
00:13:36,080 --> 00:13:37,080
It does.

319
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:38,760
Yeah, for sure.

320
00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:44,400
Who would you guys absolutely love to have on Merd Nerds as a guest cohost?

321
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,320
Besides me, of course, but no, really.

322
00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,440
Who would you like to have?

323
00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:49,440
Tell me.

324
00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:50,440
I need to know.

325
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:51,440
Me?

326
00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:52,440
Yeah.

327
00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:53,440
Okay.

328
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,080
Well, we like talking with you, obviously, but we already had you guys on.

329
00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,920
I think it'd be really cool to have the morbid girls on.

330
00:13:59,920 --> 00:14:00,920
I love morbid.

331
00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:02,280
That's Ashley's favorite.

332
00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,880
Well, it's tied with my favorite murder.

333
00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,120
I like them both and true crime obsessed.

334
00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:08,120
I love them too.

335
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:10,080
Patrick Hines is hysterical.

336
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,320
He screams and yells.

337
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:12,320
It's so funny.

338
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,400
But yeah, that's as far as podcast goes.

339
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:19,320
As far as having just a guest, I would really like to sit down with the West Memphis, the

340
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:20,320
three guys.

341
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,320
Oh yeah.

342
00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:22,640
I would really like to sit down with them.

343
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,800
I think it would be really cool to kind of hear about, you know, you think about it,

344
00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,960
you can't wrap your head around an innocent person serving like 20 years in prison.

345
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,680
You can't fathom that like to the fullest.

346
00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:39,360
So it'd be really cool to sit with them and kind of just actually absorb that as a reality

347
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:41,320
because that's kind of hard to intake.

348
00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:46,240
I think that would help us even with how we report our podcasts.

349
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,960
I think if we were to do that a little more often and get into the heads of people involved

350
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:55,320
in cases like that, I think it would really change how we report.

351
00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,320
Yeah.

352
00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:02,960
We were lucky enough to interview Audrey VanSock, which was Amanda VanSock's sister.

353
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:08,160
And that was really insightful to get her side of the story and you know, her thoughts

354
00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,160
on everything because she knows everybody involved personally.

355
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,160
She grew up with them.

356
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:15,040
So that was really cool to hear that side of that story.

357
00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,000
Alicia, what about you?

358
00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:25,240
I got into True Crime Podcasts by listening to My Favorite Murder and I love Karen Kilgarafe.

359
00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,560
Like I truly think she's just a special individual.

360
00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:30,560
Seriously, she is.

361
00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:31,560
She's one of a kind.

362
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,000
I would love to have her on and just pick her brain.

363
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,840
Yeah, her view, the way she sees and describes the world and just situations, you're just

364
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,480
like, that's the way it is.

365
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:42,480
That works.

366
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,720
Whatever she says, I'm like, okay, that's fact.

367
00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:45,720
I'm following that.

368
00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:50,600
Yeah, I listened to their Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered book that they wrote and I was

369
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:52,600
like in tears just listening to Karen talk.

370
00:15:52,600 --> 00:15:58,760
I'm like, she screwed me on and she's not, but she is.

371
00:15:58,760 --> 00:15:59,760
Yeah, she's.

372
00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,640
Yeah, I cried a lot in that book too.

373
00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,840
If you were to listen to a podcast that's not True Crime, what would it be?

374
00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:07,160
Oh, I have so many.

375
00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,920
The Call Guys.

376
00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:13,120
I didn't write any of our podcasts.

377
00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:19,040
Golden Image Podcast, The United States of Paranormal, A Court of Book and Boos, Indian

378
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:21,440
Energy.

379
00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:23,400
It's all the other podcasts that are in our.

380
00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:24,840
I can't believe I missed that.

381
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:25,840
I missed that.

382
00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,840
That was right over.

383
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:27,840
That was smooth.

384
00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:31,000
And we listen to a lot of audiobooks too.

385
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:35,520
I've stopped listening to podcasts for the last couple of months because I've been just

386
00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:36,520
going through.

387
00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,360
I've been blowing through an audiobook a day.

388
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:39,360
I used to.

389
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,600
Now I haven't in a long time since I started listening to podcasts, but yeah, that's actually

390
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:47,760
probably some good advice to just decompress a little bit and listen to a book on tape.

391
00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,480
Like a good Mystery and Murder books if you want something to do.

392
00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,440
See, but you got to escape from that as a thing.

393
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:59,520
I listen to a lot of like sciency and psychology podcasts.

394
00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,400
I really like this is actually happening.

395
00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:02,400
It's a wandering podcast.

396
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:03,400
It's just like so good.

397
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,400
It's all good.

398
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:07,920
They've always got really good podcasts on there.

399
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,520
And there's one called The Science of Everything, The Gray Area.

400
00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:12,520
That's a really good one too.

401
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:13,520
Ologies.

402
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:14,520
I really like Ologies.

403
00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,200
Have you ever listened to that one?

404
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,320
They talk about all kinds of different sciences.

405
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:19,320
All the Ologies.

406
00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:20,320
All the Ologies.

407
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:21,320
That's clever.

408
00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:22,320
That's a clever name.

409
00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:23,320
That's a really good one.

410
00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:25,920
I've got New Heights with Jason and Trammus Kelsey.

411
00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:27,240
I have not listened to that.

412
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:28,240
I haven't listened to that.

413
00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:29,240
I'm sorry.

414
00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,120
And for our listeners who don't know who that was, you guys want to tell us who that was?

415
00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:34,120
Oh yeah.

416
00:17:34,120 --> 00:17:35,120
Oh yeah.

417
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:37,320
We haven't even, we didn't even introduce you, Jack.

418
00:17:37,320 --> 00:17:40,840
Yeah, just in case he wants to pop in when I start telling my story.

419
00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:41,840
You go do that.

420
00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:43,040
That is Jeremy Golden.

421
00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,720
That is our editor, producer, and unpaid babysitter.

422
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,720
Our honorary father.

423
00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:52,520
He's the owner and operator of Golden Mojo Entertainment.

424
00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:53,920
He is the emperor.

425
00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,960
You want to say hi?

426
00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,800
New Heights with Travis and Jason Kelsey.

427
00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,800
That's one that he listens to.

428
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:02,800
Oh goodness.

429
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:03,800
All right.

430
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,120
When do your new episodes drop?

431
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:06,640
Where can we find you?

432
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,120
Oh, did you write it down?

433
00:18:08,120 --> 00:18:09,120
I did.

434
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:10,120
Way to go.

435
00:18:10,120 --> 00:18:11,120
Go ahead.

436
00:18:11,120 --> 00:18:15,800
We drop on Fridays, so you can tune in on Fridays.

437
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:16,800
Yep.

438
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,560
New episodes every Friday.

439
00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:23,640
You can email us at murderns.gmail.com or contact us on our social media, Facebook,

440
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:25,540
Twitter, Instagram.

441
00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:27,400
We have a TikTok, but we don't use it.

442
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,840
I think I like it better than Instagram.

443
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:30,840
Yeah.

444
00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:31,840
And we talked about it.

445
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:36,280
Like I promised this week I'm going to make a video for my episode and I never freaking

446
00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:37,280
do it.

447
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:39,800
It is so easy to do.

448
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:45,360
When I do all my social media for Instagram, I literally plop it right there on TikTok

449
00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:46,360
at the same time.

450
00:18:46,360 --> 00:18:47,920
So it's really easy to do.

451
00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:53,720
I get little OCD about stuff and I'm like, I have to make this into this intricate video.

452
00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:54,720
Right.

453
00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:55,720
Yeah.

454
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:56,920
I bite off more than I can chew.

455
00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:00,080
That's like literally describes me in every fast.

456
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,360
I get that because I'm an over thinker and I can think that it's going to take me literally,

457
00:19:04,360 --> 00:19:10,760
I don't know, two to three minutes to put something out there, but no, it turns into

458
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,080
a long ordeal.

459
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,040
I listed a few places we are, but we're a lot of places, so I wasn't sure.

460
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:17,040
Oh yeah.

461
00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,680
We're a distributor like Apple, Spotify, Amazon, Stitcher, FM.

462
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:22,720
What is it called?

463
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:23,720
What?

464
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,320
I can't remember what it's called.

465
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:27,320
I don't know.

466
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,320
Any of them.

467
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:29,320
We're all of them.

468
00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:30,320
FM Studio, I believe in it.

469
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:31,320
I don't know.

470
00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:32,320
We're like everywhere.

471
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:33,320
Everywhere we could be.

472
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,320
Just Google us and we're on page one.

473
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:37,320
Give us a gook.

474
00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:38,320
Give us a gook.

475
00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,120
I totally ripped that for my favorite murder, but I did not mean to.

476
00:19:41,120 --> 00:19:42,920
Oh, it is from that.

477
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,280
No, it's not my favorite murder, is it?

478
00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:49,800
It's true crime obsessed, I think.

479
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,440
We say it at work all the time too, so it just kind of comes out, but I did not coin

480
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:54,440
that.

481
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,160
I just want that to be public knowledge.

482
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,760
At some point it became a verb.

483
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:00,760
Did you Google that?

484
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:01,760
Right, yeah.

485
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:02,760
All right.

486
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,760
Well, that is awesome.

487
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,760
I listen to you guys when I'm getting ready for work in the morning, sometimes when I'm

488
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:07,760
in the car.

489
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:08,760
It just depends.

490
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,240
What I love about podcasts is that I can listen to half of it when I'm getting ready.

491
00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,560
I'll finish it on the drive in.

492
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:20,680
Be sure to check out Ashley and Alicia on Merg Nerds wherever you get those podcasts

493
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:26,840
that they listed, plus on their social media sites and apparently not on TikTok just yet.

494
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:27,840
We're there.

495
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,680
It's just not very active.

496
00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,720
I haven't posted anything on there in months.

497
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:33,720
All right.

498
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,560
Are you ready to dash into my story?

499
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:36,560
Oh, I'm sorry.

500
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:37,560
Yes, I am too.

501
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,080
We didn't recognize the name, so we're pretty interested to hear.

502
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:46,800
What I like to do when I start my storylines, I ask a question, but it's basically getting

503
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,800
us into the thought process of the storyline.

504
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:55,320
Let me ask you two, have you ever gone snooping for a Christmas present when you guys were

505
00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,800
kids before Christmas morning?

506
00:20:57,800 --> 00:20:58,800
Have you?

507
00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,640
Oh yeah, I would open mine and we wrapped them.

508
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:01,680
I was a spoiled brat.

509
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,800
We didn't have rules, so I got to do whatever I wanted.

510
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,200
I wasn't scared of repercussions.

511
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,200
Okay.

512
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,320
I grew up an only child, so I totally did.

513
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:10,320
All right.

514
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,920
Did you guys wrap it perfectly though that your parents did not know?

515
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,280
I would just take the tape slowly off.

516
00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:21,280
I remember it was the year I got a digital camera and I was so excited because I didn't

517
00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,200
think I was going to get one.

518
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:28,440
I lived with my grandparents, so they just really weren't very observational, so I was

519
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,800
just able to pull it off without a lot of effort.

520
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:37,680
I don't ever recall ever doing that, but there was one time that my dad or some, there was

521
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,800
a lot of ruckus going on.

522
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:43,880
I could hear a lot of wrestling, and so I peeked down the stairs and I saw that I was

523
00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,640
getting skis that Christmas, which was pretty exciting, but I did have to pretend that I

524
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:51,640
was surprised that morning.

525
00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,680
There's a picture that I have with my sister, Kathy, and I. My sister has her arms up and

526
00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,800
she's like, oh wow, how exciting.

527
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:01,760
I got skis for Christmas.

528
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:06,040
That was totally fake, and even when I'm looking at it today, I knew what she was doing, but

529
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,840
we had to act surprised.

530
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:09,000
Yeah.

531
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,000
That's really funny.

532
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,000
That is super funny.

533
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:15,200
All right, so we're going to come around to that question in just a bit, but for now,

534
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,120
I'm going to tell you the story about Paul Joseph Fronczak.

535
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:28,120
On April 27th, 1964, Paul Joseph Fronczak was born at Michael Reese Hospital in Chicago,

536
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:31,160
Illinois to Dora and Chester Fronczak.

537
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:37,120
Obviously, Alicia, you have kids, you know this should be a very, very happy event for

538
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:43,280
the new parents, but unfortunately, Paul was kidnapped from that hospital when he was just

539
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:44,880
two days old.

540
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:51,080
Now I will say this, I'm curious to know why, and I'll tell you this in just a moment, but

541
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,520
they had not taken his footprints yet, and I'm curious to know why, because at two days

542
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320
old, you would think that they would have already done that.

543
00:22:58,320 --> 00:22:59,320
Yeah.

544
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:00,320
Yeah.

545
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,520
That's like within the first hour they do that.

546
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,920
It's an inside job.

547
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:05,920
Yeah.

548
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:13,880
So at 1.45 PM on April 29th, 1964, a woman posing as a nurse, inside job like you just

549
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:19,560
said, but a woman posing as a nurse came in, told Dora that she needed to take Paul to

550
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,400
the nursery so that they could take blood work.

551
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:23,840
Sounds reasonable, right?

552
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:28,560
That's part of the process, but maybe get those footprints while you're at it.

553
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:29,560
Who knows?

554
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:35,480
Naturally, Dora handed her baby over to the nurse who immediately left the hospital, jumped

555
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,040
into a taxi, took off, and was never seen again.

556
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,460
Oh my gosh.

557
00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:45,540
One thing too is back in the 60s, car seats were not required, so it was probably really

558
00:23:45,540 --> 00:23:46,800
easy to get away.

559
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:51,120
The lady just jumped in the car, had a baby in her hand, and off they went.

560
00:23:51,120 --> 00:23:58,280
So according to the taxi driver, this woman was Caucasian, blonde, approximately 35 to

561
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,960
40 years old, around 5'7".

562
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,160
Is that us?

563
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:03,160
I mean, right?

564
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,160
5'7", too tall.

565
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:09,600
And medium build, so he got a pretty good description of her.

566
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:15,280
Believing the occurrence was connected to a kidnapping though, run by the Chicago area

567
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:24,360
mob, over 200 police began an immediate investigation and canvassed a 16 block radius of that hospital

568
00:24:24,360 --> 00:24:26,440
where Paul had just been taken.

569
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,820
So they acted pretty quickly here.

570
00:24:28,820 --> 00:24:31,460
They started going door to door.

571
00:24:31,460 --> 00:24:38,060
They went to 600 homes before midnight and couldn't find any leads on the baby that had

572
00:24:38,060 --> 00:24:40,900
been kidnapped, unfortunately.

573
00:24:40,900 --> 00:24:48,760
They also tested 10,000 boys to see if they were baby Paul over the next two years, but

574
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,820
no news came back that any of them were the stolen baby.

575
00:24:52,820 --> 00:24:56,240
So he just disappeared in plain sight, which is really sad.

576
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:57,720
Yeah, that's tough.

577
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,500
Though the kidnapping case is considered to be one of the biggest manhunts in the history

578
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:09,680
of Chicago way back in 1964, definitive leads were never established and at some point this

579
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:10,680
case went cold.

580
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:11,680
That makes sense.

581
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,680
It'd be hard.

582
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,360
I mean, they didn't exist two days ago.

583
00:25:15,360 --> 00:25:17,320
He didn't exist, you know?

584
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:18,640
That's crazy.

585
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,520
And it's like all newborns look like potatoes.

586
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:21,520
Yeah, literally.

587
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,600
So it's like, for this potato with dark hair or this potato with light hair.

588
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:31,320
A really big scowl on their face because they're not happy coming out from their warm spot.

589
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:32,320
Exactly.

590
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:40,120
Meanwhile, in March 1966, a little toddler boy was abandoned in a parking lot by a department

591
00:25:40,120 --> 00:25:41,700
store in New Jersey.

592
00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:47,880
He was simply left alone in a stroller when a passerby came through and figured out that

593
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:49,880
he was just sitting there by himself.

594
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:55,400
Now, he was a little too young to even say his name and was placed in foster care with

595
00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:01,560
a family who was going to adopt him until police linked him to baby Paul Fronczak, who

596
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:05,800
was stolen from that Chicago hospital two years earlier in 1964.

597
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:11,640
Can you imagine being that person who stopped and just saw a baby by themselves or a toddler

598
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,480
just in their stroller outside of a department store?

599
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:17,320
I mean, is that normal back then?

600
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:18,320
Was that normal?

601
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:19,320
To just leave a baby?

602
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:20,320
No.

603
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,720
Well, like to go into a store and leave your baby outside, that's not normal.

604
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,240
Like back in the 60s?

605
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:26,240
I don't know.

606
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,240
But it was a European thing.

607
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,080
She hopped in the car with the baby in her arm, probably a cigarette in her mouth.

608
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,040
I mean, you never know.

609
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:34,560
It is a European thing though.

610
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:39,760
They leave the prams outside of the store and then they go into the stores, not in the

611
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,760
United States.

612
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,360
Are you saying they leave their kids outside?

613
00:26:43,360 --> 00:26:45,560
I think like in Norway and stuff they do that.

614
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,080
Yeah, they leave them in the prams outside of the store and it's not uncommon to see.

615
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,120
Well, because they don't have freaking psycho killers like we do here.

616
00:26:52,120 --> 00:26:53,120
So for real.

617
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:54,320
Yeah, that's true.

618
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:55,800
People are happy there.

619
00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:02,000
Well, police looked into this abandoned child and they felt that he could have been baby

620
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:06,760
Paul Franszak, who had been abducted from the hospital.

621
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,760
And the only thing that the investigators had to go on was that newborn picture because

622
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,160
yes, they did have the picture of the baby.

623
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:20,240
But like I said, they hadn't taken his blood work yet, his fingerprints, footprints, nothing.

624
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,340
So they only had that picture to go by.

625
00:27:22,340 --> 00:27:29,280
They compared photos of newborn Paul Joseph Franszak from the hospital photos and they

626
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,640
looked really closely at his facial features.

627
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,920
Now here's an interesting fact and I don't know if you guys know this, but another approach

628
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,440
to identifying the abandoned toddler was the shape of his ears.

629
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:43,840
Oh yeah, they're like fingerprints, aren't they?

630
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:44,840
Kind of.

631
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:45,840
Yeah, I have read that.

632
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:46,840
Yeah, they are.

633
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,800
And back in the 1960s, they believed, like you said, that that is pretty significant

634
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:52,680
like a fingerprint.

635
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:57,560
And me personally, I can relate to this because when I came from Canada to the United States,

636
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:04,640
it was back in the 1980s and I was required to tuck my hair behind my ear, have a sideways

637
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:09,180
photo or at least like a partially sideways photo so that they could specifically see

638
00:28:09,180 --> 00:28:10,280
my ear.

639
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,280
And they took that picture for my green card.

640
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,000
Yeah, I thought that was interesting.

641
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:15,000
Wow, that's interesting.

642
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:16,000
How weird.

643
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Isn't it?

644
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,600
I did ask them, I'm like, why are you doing this?

645
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,120
Why are you making me tuck my hair behind my ears?

646
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:23,340
And that's what they told me.

647
00:28:23,340 --> 00:28:25,940
It was as significant as a fingerprint.

648
00:28:25,940 --> 00:28:27,440
So I thought that was neat.

649
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:32,480
And once they completed their comparisons and were confident that the toddler was baby

650
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:38,000
Paul, authorities contacted Dora and Chester Frankzak to give them the good news that their

651
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:39,680
son had been recovered.

652
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:45,480
Dora and Chester were obviously elated with this and agreed to psychological testing before

653
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,160
they could be introduced back to the toddler.

654
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:49,160
And that makes sense.

655
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,160
I understand.

656
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:51,160
Well, they've been through a lot.

657
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:52,160
Sure.

658
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,160
Right, right.

659
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,600
Something interesting happened here.

660
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,880
When Dora was introduced to the toddler, she felt at the time that all eyes were on her

661
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:04,180
due to the media frenzy that obviously erupted in this case.

662
00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:07,360
Baby is found, baby's returned home.

663
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:13,640
And Dora felt that she could either say yes, no, or I'm not sure that this is truly my

664
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:14,640
son.

665
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:16,020
And what do you guys think she did?

666
00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:19,560
I would imagine that she would say, oh gosh, okay, I don't know.

667
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:24,080
Either she said yes because you want to think that so badly no matter what you actually

668
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,740
know or think in your head.

669
00:29:25,740 --> 00:29:29,800
Or I don't know because she only knew him probably for a few hours out of those two

670
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:30,800
days.

671
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:32,160
How are you going to be able to know?

672
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,160
Yeah.

673
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,600
But I don't have that like mother's intuition.

674
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:37,920
So I don't know that feeling, you know?

675
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:38,920
What about you?

676
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,240
Yeah, I would feel like she'd be pressured to say, yeah, this is my son.

677
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,240
Okay.

678
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:44,240
So you're feeling she's pressured?

679
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:45,240
Yeah.

680
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,520
I mean, I think that's when they were introduced, but according to a statement that she had

681
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:55,480
made many, many years later, Dora did not say yes so much because out of clear definition,

682
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,700
she absolutely knew that was her son.

683
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:01,440
She did it because she thought it was the right thing to do because this boy needed

684
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,440
a family.

685
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:03,440
Right.

686
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,720
But you got to think too though, you got to think if that's the reason, then people are

687
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,440
going to stop looking for your son and he could be out there somewhere.

688
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:15,160
So that feels like a scary reason to do that because then that cuts off all hope.

689
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,080
Well, you have four years on.

690
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,880
Yeah, within the public.

691
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:23,880
And then Ashley, you said she may have wanted that baby so bad to be hers that she said

692
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:24,880
yes.

693
00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:25,880
You just don't know.

694
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,240
I mean, I don't know what I would do in that situation.

695
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:34,360
Well, Dora and Chester took the toddler in, declared him as Paul Joseph Frunksak and raised

696
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,040
him as their own.

697
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:37,800
Honestly, that's really sweet.

698
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,720
I would think that's a happy ending.

699
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,960
But Dora eventually went through the court systems and had to adopt Paul because obviously

700
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,680
there was no record of him other than that newborn picture.

701
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:55,360
In 1960s, she couldn't even prove that he was her biological son.

702
00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:01,000
From a very young age, Paul did not feel like he even fit in with his new family.

703
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,840
And I've heard that before, that adopted kids, even if they don't know they're adopted, they

704
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,280
just don't get that warm and fuzzy feeling like they're part of the family.

705
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,920
They feel different.

706
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:11,920
Right.

707
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,260
Paul didn't feel that he fit in because he didn't look like anybody.

708
00:31:15,260 --> 00:31:17,220
There was no family resemblance there.

709
00:31:17,220 --> 00:31:23,040
He did go to Catholic school and was raised by a loving yet overprotective mother for

710
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,740
good reason, of course.

711
00:31:25,740 --> 00:31:28,960
Did he know kind of the situation growing up?

712
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,360
Did he know his situation or did he think that he was like a birth child?

713
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,760
I think that he felt like he was a birth child.

714
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,320
It's my understanding his parents never told him he was adopted.

715
00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:39,320
Okay.

716
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:40,320
Okay.

717
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,760
So he seems like a pretty smart kid because he's at a young age already saying, you know

718
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:46,200
what, I don't look like anybody.

719
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,200
Right.

720
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,040
I don't know, but I will tell you this.

721
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:54,160
So when he was 10 years old, Paul was curious and boys will be boys, right?

722
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:59,040
He decided he was going to go look for Christmas presents hidden around the house.

723
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:05,400
And of course, Paul's quest took him to the basement where he pushed a sofa aside and

724
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,800
accessed the crawl space in the family home.

725
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:09,480
I mean, he was determined.

726
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:10,480
Who does that?

727
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:11,480
Right.

728
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,480
All right.

729
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:18,100
There in the crawl space, he came across several old boxes full of newspaper articles, sympathy

730
00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:24,800
cards and letters addressed to the family of a baby boy who had been kidnapped in 1964

731
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,420
from Michael Reese Hospital.

732
00:32:26,420 --> 00:32:30,480
So he came across these articles as he went reading through them.

733
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:35,840
The mother of the boy who was stolen pleaded for the kidnapper to bring her baby back home

734
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:36,840
unharmed.

735
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,760
Paul recognized the woman in this photo to be his mother, Dora.

736
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:44,440
Gosh, at 10 years old, what a way to shake your foundation.

737
00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,560
That's already a weird age anyway.

738
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,560
Yeah.

739
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:52,840
Well, another article showed the same mother being interviewed saying that she had reunited

740
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:58,760
with her infant boy who was a toddler by now and had been abandoned in New Jersey.

741
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:03,400
And because there was not a paper trail on that infant, the mother had adopted the boy

742
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,960
and called him her own.

743
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:10,360
Paul immediately ran upstairs to ask his mother about what he had just found.

744
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,080
Of course, she would have been a little shocked.

745
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,920
She was angry that he had been snooping for those Christmas presents.

746
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:20,520
Yeah, for real, that's bold of him to run up there immediately.

747
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,920
I think I would have waited at least a day or two.

748
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,440
It's stewing a little, just a little.

749
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:30,720
But that is when she told him that yes, he had been kidnapped and that was all he needed

750
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:31,720
to know.

751
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,120
So basically she's like, drop it.

752
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:35,700
We're not talking about this.

753
00:33:35,700 --> 00:33:36,700
And life went on.

754
00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:37,700
Wow.

755
00:33:37,700 --> 00:33:42,800
That probably just reassured him as to his feelings of not belonging and feeling like

756
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,520
he was different.

757
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,080
But we don't know these personalities.

758
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,880
So was she an easily approachable woman?

759
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,240
She told him the truth, but did he know his boundaries?

760
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,240
Right.

761
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:58,000
Paul graduated from high school, played in a band for a few years and even joined the

762
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,000
army.

763
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:04,960
He held multiple jobs and eventually got married, had a child and moved out to Las Vegas.

764
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:12,000
In 2012, when Paul was 48 years old, his daughter asked him to take a DNA test.

765
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:17,480
Paul obliged and asked his adoptive parents to take a DNA test along with him.

766
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,360
They reluctantly agreed.

767
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,800
So they all swabbed.

768
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,480
They prepped the DNA kits for mailing.

769
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,200
However, on their flight home from visiting because they did not live in the same state,

770
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:33,800
Paul's parents went ahead and flew home, but Dora and Chester had gotten cold feet and

771
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,920
they asked him not to send in those tests because he was their son no matter what.

772
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,160
Oh, that's hard.

773
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:41,400
I know.

774
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:42,520
What would you guys do?

775
00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:44,600
Would you send those DNA tests off?

776
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,620
Would you comply and agree to the tests or agree to their wishes?

777
00:34:49,620 --> 00:34:51,200
I would say, okay.

778
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,760
And then I'd still send them because I don't think it would change.

779
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:59,360
It wouldn't change everything that they had done for him down to taking him in not knowing.

780
00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,680
I don't think that would change anything.

781
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,360
You could just not tell them ever if you wanted to.

782
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:05,360
I probably would.

783
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,320
Well, and it sounds like they already know.

784
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,120
They already know that.

785
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,160
It definitely sounds like they didn't need that.

786
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,600
And if they've already said, look, I don't care.

787
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:16,600
You're my son.

788
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,600
We love you.

789
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:18,600
I get it.

790
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:25,720
I think it's 48 years of being okay or 46 years or whatever, being okay and having him

791
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:28,960
and moving on to just rip that open again.

792
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,160
That's got to be hard for the parents.

793
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:37,260
Well, Paul did comply for a couple of weeks, but he simply couldn't take it anymore and

794
00:35:37,260 --> 00:35:39,920
he did mail off those DNA tests.

795
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:40,920
Jay's nodding his head back there.

796
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,200
He's like, yup, that's what I wanted to happen.

797
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,640
Deb, you got to give me the answer to this.

798
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:46,640
It's driving me nuts.

799
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,320
You're telling a great story.

800
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:54,240
I think I have heard this case, but I don't know it well enough to remember how it ends.

801
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:55,240
So I'm very excited.

802
00:35:55,240 --> 00:35:57,960
Are you calling me a good storyteller?

803
00:35:57,960 --> 00:35:59,720
You are a great storyteller.

804
00:35:59,720 --> 00:36:00,720
Thanks.

805
00:36:00,720 --> 00:36:02,680
I think more podcasters need to come on with me.

806
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:03,680
What do you think?

807
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:04,680
I think so.

808
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:05,680
We'll spread the word.

809
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:09,160
Weeks went by and DNA tests did come back.

810
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:13,920
Paul was not the biological son of Dora and Chester from Zach.

811
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:18,120
He was not the baby who was stolen from the hospital back in 1964.

812
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,280
Imagine if that would happen today where they just find a missing child and they're like,

813
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:22,840
oh, you're missing a child.

814
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:23,840
Take this one.

815
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:24,840
You can have this one.

816
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:25,840
Yeah.

817
00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:26,840
Exactly.

818
00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:27,840
That's insane.

819
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:28,840
See, now I'm like, okay, well, were his parents in the database?

820
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:29,840
Did they find him?

821
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:30,840
You got it.

822
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:31,840
Did he find cousins?

823
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:32,840
Who are their parents?

824
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:33,840
Who are their siblings?

825
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:40,200
I'm so glad you're asking me those questions because Paul immediately began searching for

826
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:46,120
his birth parents, which unfortunately caused discourse with his adoptive parents because

827
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:47,800
he did send those tests off.

828
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:51,560
They stopped talking to him for about a year.

829
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:52,560
That's awful.

830
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:57,120
What a wonderful journey for him to be able to go on and for them not to support him.

831
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,120
That's upsetting to me.

832
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,800
Well, you know what was upsetting to them?

833
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:05,400
They were ticked off because he went against their wishes and mailed off those tests.

834
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:10,880
Again, you don't know what personalities you're dealing with here because the dynamics of

835
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,000
families, I mean, shoo.

836
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:18,480
Well, and having that big of a secret, I think it starts to snowball.

837
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:23,240
So I'm sure there was a lot of short, like, no, just because.

838
00:37:23,240 --> 00:37:28,240
So I imagine that had to be part of the dynamic at least.

839
00:37:28,240 --> 00:37:34,240
It took some time, but Paul was able to make Dora and Chester believe that he did not act

840
00:37:34,240 --> 00:37:36,840
out of haste or maliciousness.

841
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,840
When he did decide to send off those tests, he actually told his parents that he had sent

842
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,520
them off because he wanted to help them find their real son.

843
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:46,520
Right.

844
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:47,520
He could be in the database too.

845
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:48,520
Absolutely.

846
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:52,920
Paul spent the next several years looking for his true identity.

847
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:59,120
He went public asking news outlets to help him not only find his own real family, but

848
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,600
the real Paul Joseph Frunkzak.

849
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:08,120
The FBI reopened this case and located at least 10 boxes of evidence from the original

850
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:09,520
kidnapping case.

851
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:15,160
However, since DNA proved that Paul was not that stolen baby from the hospital, he could

852
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,160
not have any access to those records.

853
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,800
So he began his own investigation and Paul set up a website which produced some pretty

854
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:24,080
solid leads here.

855
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,760
He discovered that both his biological parents had passed away.

856
00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:33,760
He also learned that he had plenty of family, including two older siblings who are now living

857
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,080
on the East Coast of the United States.

858
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:41,400
I am so curious what happened, why he was alone outside of that store.

859
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:42,400
But I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

860
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,400
I'll let you finish.

861
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:44,400
Yeah.

862
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:45,440
I'll tell you in just a minute.

863
00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,120
He has family in Tennessee.

864
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:53,700
One of the leads that Paul was given was to a machinist by trade named Kevin Beatty who

865
00:38:53,700 --> 00:38:54,840
lived in Michigan.

866
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,280
Kevin was confirmed to be the real Paul Joseph Frunkzak.

867
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:00,960
That's our neck of the woods.

868
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:01,960
Interesting.

869
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:06,720
In the sake of differentiating between these two Pauls, I am going to refer to the adopted

870
00:39:06,720 --> 00:39:11,880
Paul as Paul and the real Paul as Kevin because that is what Kevin grew up with.

871
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:13,400
He grew up with the name Kevin.

872
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:19,720
Paul wrote to Kevin to tell him what he had discovered, but unfortunately Kevin had been

873
00:39:19,720 --> 00:39:26,600
recently given the diagnosis of terminal cancer and chose not to pursue what he had just found

874
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:27,600
out.

875
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,960
What a hard decision to make.

876
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:30,960
I know.

877
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,920
It's like, it doesn't even sound like a real story.

878
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,560
It sounds like a movie or a book.

879
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:38,520
Wouldn't you want that to close things out?

880
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,840
But unless you're in that position, you can't even begin to try to think about how hard

881
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:44,240
it is to make that decision.

882
00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:45,240
Yeah, absolutely.

883
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,800
And me personally, I'm so sentimental.

884
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:48,800
Family is everything.

885
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:49,800
I probably would.

886
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:50,800
I mean, that's just me.

887
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,480
I don't know.

888
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,440
That's how I feel too.

889
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:58,240
Well if you paid attention to the dates that Paul had tracked down, I don't even know if

890
00:39:58,240 --> 00:39:59,240
I gave you the dates.

891
00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:05,720
Back in 2020 is when Paul had started looking into this and made his discoveries.

892
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:11,400
But if you pay attention to that date, you would understand that Paul tracked Kevin down

893
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,900
in Michigan during the high active season of COVID.

894
00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:20,960
So it really made everything hard for anybody to do anything face to face.

895
00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,560
Kevin did, however, hold a conversation with Dora, but they never met face to face before

896
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,400
Kevin eventually passed away.

897
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,160
I hate it.

898
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,480
I thought you weren't going for the crying.

899
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:34,480
That is awful.

900
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:35,480
I'm sorry.

901
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:36,480
Oh my gosh.

902
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,040
I'm glad they at least got to have a conversation though.

903
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,560
That must have been fulfilling for Dora.

904
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,760
I think so.

905
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:49,480
Ironically, you guys, Kevin passed away on April 27th, which was his original birthday

906
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:50,960
back in 1964.

907
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:51,960
Wow.

908
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:52,960
Things are weird.

909
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:53,960
Aren't they though?

910
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:54,960
That's crazy.

911
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:57,720
That's just the universe, man.

912
00:40:57,720 --> 00:40:59,200
Oh my gosh.

913
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:05,560
Dora extended her gratitude to Paul for giving her that closure on her missing child, but

914
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:11,080
in the end told him that Paul, the one that she had adopted was her true son.

915
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:12,720
I just got the goose bumps.

916
00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:13,720
Oh my gosh.

917
00:41:13,720 --> 00:41:14,720
Okay, here we go.

918
00:41:14,720 --> 00:41:20,040
Kevin's obituary produced additional leads to Paul's new family members.

919
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:21,040
That's great.

920
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,040
They list all those names.

921
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:23,040
Right, right.

922
00:41:23,040 --> 00:41:26,520
He reached out, but this is the sad part.

923
00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:31,760
Unfortunately, no one chose to talk to him or acknowledge that he was even related to

924
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:32,760
them.

925
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,760
Are you kidding?

926
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:34,760
Right?

927
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:35,760
Ew.

928
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,700
Who is the adopted Paul Joseph Fronksak, you ask?

929
00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,300
The abandoned boy found in New Jersey when he was a toddler?

930
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:47,120
As it turns out, his real name is Jack Rosenthal.

931
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:52,720
Jack was actually born six months earlier than the real Paul Fronksak.

932
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:57,120
And honestly, if it were me, I'd like to know I was a little bit younger, not older, but

933
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,000
you know, that's just how that goes.

934
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,440
He was born in New Jersey on October 27th, 1963.

935
00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:06,000
It's my sister's birthday.

936
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,000
Really?

937
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,000
Just not 1963.

938
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:10,000
Exactly.

939
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,000
And guess what?

940
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,120
Ironically, it's the same birthday as his mother Dora.

941
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:16,840
Oh my gosh.

942
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:21,040
See, they all linked together.

943
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,040
That is insanity.

944
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:23,040
That is insanity.

945
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:26,040
That is like synchronicity and numbers.

946
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:27,520
Yeah, that shit's real.

947
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:28,520
That is wild.

948
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:29,520
It is.

949
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:35,960
Well, for the purpose of consistency, I am going to continue calling Jack Paul since

950
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,720
that was the name that he went by all his life.

951
00:42:38,720 --> 00:42:46,020
Paul is one of four siblings who unfortunately grew up in an abusive household with a Korean

952
00:42:46,020 --> 00:42:48,240
war vet and an alcoholic mother.

953
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:49,600
Oh my gosh.

954
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:55,240
Through his quest to find answers, Paul also discovered that both of his biological parents

955
00:42:55,240 --> 00:42:56,600
were now deceased.

956
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,520
He's putting so much work into finding his family.

957
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,360
Right, because it started in 2012, you said, right?

958
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:03,360
I'm going to say yes to that.

959
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:07,840
I was going to say, I think he said 2012 and I'm like, okay, so man, like that's like eight

960
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,560
years of work from 2012 to 2020.

961
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,780
That's crazy.

962
00:43:11,780 --> 00:43:16,600
And he put a lot of this time in on his own time because he didn't have records to those

963
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:18,120
FBI files.

964
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:22,720
He also found that he had a twin sister named Jill.

965
00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:23,720
Oh my gosh.

966
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:24,720
Oh, Jack and Jill.

967
00:43:24,720 --> 00:43:25,720
Oh my gosh.

968
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:29,520
I thought that's what you were owing was that for Jill.

969
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,040
Are you making a joke or is that their real names?

970
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:33,760
No, that was their real names.

971
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:34,760
What?

972
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:35,760
Are you calling me a jokester?

973
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:36,760
I don't do that.

974
00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:37,760
I wasn't sure.

975
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,960
I was like, that would be an odd place to put a joke.

976
00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,620
Yeah, their mother was definitely drunk when she named them.

977
00:43:43,620 --> 00:43:47,160
And then it was 1964 when Mother Goose was very popular.

978
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:48,160
Ah, yes.

979
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:49,160
Yes.

980
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:54,040
Through his own research, Paul discovered that he and Jill were abused as children and

981
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,080
foul play is suspected in Jill's disappearance.

982
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,400
Oh my freaking Lord.

983
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:01,880
I cannot handle this.

984
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:03,560
Okay, then I'll move on.

985
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,920
No, you're fine.

986
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:05,920
All right.

987
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,880
It's not certain if Jill disappeared at the same time that Jack had been abandoned at

988
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,680
that department store regardless.

989
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,800
Wait, did I say Jack?

990
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:15,800
Okay, Paul.

991
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:16,800
Yeah.

992
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:22,360
Regardless, Jack or Paul in this case continues to search for his long lost twin.

993
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,980
To this day right now?

994
00:44:23,980 --> 00:44:24,980
To this day.

995
00:44:24,980 --> 00:44:26,080
Oh my gosh.

996
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:31,240
So there's a chance they were both left out there and someone abducted her and left him.

997
00:44:31,240 --> 00:44:33,900
Oh my gosh.

998
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:38,540
It's kind of like a little miracle though that he was abandoned and that Kevin went missing

999
00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:42,420
when you think about it because he could have been murdered himself or...

1000
00:44:42,420 --> 00:44:44,960
Or in whatever situation she might have been in.

1001
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:45,960
Continuously abused.

1002
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:46,960
Yeah.

1003
00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,960
Wow.

1004
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:48,960
Kind of how bad things play out.

1005
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,200
There are so many elements to that story that were so unexpected.

1006
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:56,640
It's my kind of story though.

1007
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,380
That was an Alicia story for sure.

1008
00:44:59,380 --> 00:45:03,860
As of today, Jack continues to go by the name Paul Joseph Fronczak.

1009
00:45:03,860 --> 00:45:10,640
He successfully had his biological sister's case reopened under the New Jersey State Police

1010
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:12,920
Agency, the one that had gone missing.

1011
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:19,220
Police believe that Jill disappeared in 1965, close to the same time that Paul was abandoned.

1012
00:45:19,220 --> 00:45:24,160
And Paul firmly believes that Jill is still alive and continues to look for him.

1013
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:30,400
An age progression photo has been created for Jill, which can be found on the missingkids.org

1014
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:31,400
website.

1015
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:37,100
So if you have any information on the disappearance of Jill Rosenthal, please contact the National

1016
00:45:37,100 --> 00:45:41,800
Center for Missing and Exploited Children at 1-800-THE-LOST.

1017
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,880
And that's the story of Paul Joseph Fronczak.

1018
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:44,880
Wow.

1019
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:45,880
Wow.

1020
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:46,880
What a good story.

1021
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Well done.

1022
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:48,880
Thank you.

1023
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:50,640
I almost Ashley'd that a hundred times.

1024
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:54,320
I wanted to ask so many questions, but I knew I was like, she's going to cover her bases.

1025
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,360
I got to keep my mouth shut.

1026
00:45:56,360 --> 00:45:57,360
Did I?

1027
00:45:57,360 --> 00:45:58,360
Yeah, that was great.

1028
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:01,160
Believe it or not though, because I listen to you guys a lot.

1029
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:06,080
And Alicia, I think that you and I have a lot of the same style in our storytelling.

1030
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:07,080
Yeah, I agree.

1031
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:08,200
I do have a question.

1032
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:09,480
I've got a question too.

1033
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:10,480
Yeah.

1034
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,480
You go first.

1035
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:15,200
Did you ever make contact with his older siblings and have a relationship with them?

1036
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:16,200
That was my question.

1037
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:22,720
No, I think that in his quest, it wasn't really specific, but whoever it was that he contacted

1038
00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:26,560
that he found out were his relatives could have been his older siblings.

1039
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:28,320
They did not want to contact him.

1040
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:30,800
That is insane to me.

1041
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,720
Why would you not want to explore that at least?

1042
00:46:34,720 --> 00:46:35,720
I'm too nosy.

1043
00:46:35,720 --> 00:46:40,600
Like, okay, yeah, he might be a shit person, but find out because he might be a great person.

1044
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,520
It sounds like he was or is.

1045
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:44,800
Yeah, because I've been in touch with people.

1046
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:50,840
I did that DNA test several years ago and I have found family that I did not know I

1047
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:51,840
had.

1048
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:52,840
Yeah, me too.

1049
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:53,840
Ashley's got a crazy story, actually.

1050
00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:59,640
Yeah, we found out, we all did it, and we found out that my grandpa had a child in Seattle

1051
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:00,800
that he didn't know about.

1052
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:05,480
He was donating sperm back in the 70s and my mom had another sister.

1053
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,320
It actually looks exactly like my mom too.

1054
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:09,320
Yeah.

1055
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:10,320
Do you guys talk?

1056
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,200
We actually all went on vacation together.

1057
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:13,200
She fits right in.

1058
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,200
That's wonderful.

1059
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,280
That's an amazing story.

1060
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:17,400
Yeah, she's lovely.

1061
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:18,400
She works for Microsoft, I think.

1062
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:19,400
Cool.

1063
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:20,400
Way to go.

1064
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:21,400
Why are you laughing, Sheri?

1065
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:22,400
I'm a name dropper.

1066
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,320
Ashley got a rich aunt out of that.

1067
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:32,960
No, my question was the same as hers if he was talking with the other, but I do remember

1068
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:38,800
you saying that they didn't want to reach out, which is just, just, poof, poof to them.

1069
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:39,800
I can't imagine.

1070
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:40,800
I hate that.

1071
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:41,800
I hate that.

1072
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:42,800
And I hate them.

1073
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:43,800
All right.

1074
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:49,160
We would love to hear what our listeners have to say about this story and our Dash interviews.

1075
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:55,240
You all, I can only say that I have had quality guests so far.

1076
00:47:55,240 --> 00:47:56,240
Woo-hoo.

1077
00:47:56,240 --> 00:47:57,480
All right.

1078
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:02,720
Click on the links in our show notes to find out more about this podcast, your hosts, and

1079
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:03,720
our social media.

1080
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:10,520
Join me, my co-hosts, and my guests back here for the Dash every Thursday with Shelby, Cory,

1081
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:11,520
or Beth.

1082
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,280
If you are a True Crime podcaster and want a chance to highlight your own podcast, email

1083
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,520
me at dyingtobefound at gmail.com.

1084
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:20,520
Talk to you soon.

1085
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:26,160
Thanks for listening to Dying to Be Found, True Crime podcast, and our Dash mini series.

1086
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:31,360
Every week, we'll bring you a variety of True Crime episodes, a little dash of hope,

1087
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,080
plus special bonus episodes with some really cool guests.

1088
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:40,120
Before we go, we'd love for you to share this podcast with your friends and give us a five-star

1089
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:41,120
review.

1090
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:47,880
Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to Be Found, or visit

1091
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:53,080
our website at dyingtobefound.com, spelled just like you see in our logo.

1092
00:48:53,080 --> 00:48:57,600
Better yet, click on our Linktree account found in the show notes, where you'll find

1093
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:00,000
all the information in one place.

1094
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:05,080
Be sure to Dash in every Thursday when I get together with some of my family members.

1095
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:32,080
Thanks again, everyone, and we'll talk to you soon.