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Hey friends, I'm Katie and I'm Emily and we're the hosts of Malice and Mocktails, a true

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crime podcast.

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We are just two sisters covering cases of both vintage and contemporary true crime.

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And because true crime can be a bit of a bummer, at the end of every episode, we share with

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you some of our favorite mocktail recipes.

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Join us every week wherever you get your podcasts.

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And until next time, make good choices.

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Bye.

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Bye.

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Hi everyone.

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This is Deb from Dying to be Found.

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Before we get started, I just wanted to say that episodes contain disturbing discussions

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on harmful acts and crimes against animals and or humankind.

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Recordings are not intended for young or sensitive audiences due to the content nature of this

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podcast.

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or pull in some of my fellow podcasters from our true crime community.

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I started the dash to give you a quick update on cold cases, but I'm not going to lie.

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I have met so many really cool podcasters this year and I wanted to give them an opportunity

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to showcase their own podcasts.

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I've been listening to today's guests for a while now and I love how they bring these

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stories I've never heard before.

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Katie and Emily from Malice and Mocktails are here to join me on the dash today.

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They are two sisters doing the same thing that Beth and I do, which is to spend quality

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time together and share something we love, which is true crime.

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Welcome Katie and Emily.

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Hey, thank you.

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We're so excited to be here.

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I am so glad you're here today.

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I've been listening to you guys and I love how willing some of my unsuspecting victims

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guests are here to be here on the dash with me today.

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Thanks so much for being here.

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I'm excited.

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I can't wait.

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Us too.

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Yes.

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We're very excited.

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Let's get into it.

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I really love this true crime community and just behind the scenes, we were talking before

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we started recording.

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We have this little chat group on Instagram and there's constant chatter amongst all of

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us where we are doing an amazing job in my opinion, you guys on networking and supporting

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each other.

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So when I developed the dash, naturally I thought of you guys because you're one of

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the nicest people I've talked to and I really wanted to reach out to you guys.

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So once again, thanks for being here.

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I wanted to give you guys an opportunity to tell our listeners a little bit about your

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own podcast and anything else that you want to share before I get into my own little story.

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So I have a couple of icebreaker questions for you.

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How about that?

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That sounds great.

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Well, I know that you guys are sisters and I started a podcast of my own with my own

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sister, but I wondered what made you guys decide to get into podcasting together?

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So I initially started the podcast in July of last year on my own and I did a couple

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of solo episodes and randomly just, I personally think Emily's hilarious.

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I think so too.

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Every time we watch a movie, like we have to tell her to shut up because she will be

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that person.

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I'll go in there, what are they doing?

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Oh my goodness.

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I almost put a meme out on my Instagram today along those same lines.

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I don't really watch a ton of true crime shows.

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I really don't.

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I read so much.

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I really don't spend a lot of time watching movies, but I totally get it.

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I totally get what you're saying.

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Yeah.

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I think she had actually first invited me to come on her podcast after we were with

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our stepdad together and we were watching some show and I kept asking my stepdad questions.

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Why are they doing that?

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Why is this happening?

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What is happening?

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And he's like, just watch.

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And Katie was over in the corner giggling.

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Yeah.

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Because she's not super into true crime either and I just thought that me telling her these

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just horrific stories, she'd have the best reaction.

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Then it would be very genuine.

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I think she first came on the podcast in episode three when I told her about the servant girl

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murders out of Austin in the 18, I think 1880s or 1890s.

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And she's been on ever since.

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Yeah.

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So what is the concept behind Mocktails?

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So I stopped drinking alcohol about a year ago just for health reasons.

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It wasn't serving me, et cetera.

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And during that time, I leaned heavily on Mocktails in that journey and I'd play around

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with making different recipes and playing with other recipes I found.

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And so I thought, how am I in making a podcast, I wanted to find like a niche or some other

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way to separate myself from others just to make it compelling.

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And I thought I could maybe share some Mocktail recipes or something like that.

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I thought it really wouldn't go anywhere, but I've had even fellow podcasters like,

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hey, I don't drink either.

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These are great to have.

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Sound delicious.

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Thank you.

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A lot of fruit.

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From what I heard, there's a lot of fruit.

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Yes.

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Yeah.

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And I'm trying to stay away from the more like sugary syrups other than the shrubs that

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I've been making lately.

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So yeah, so that's where that kind of concept came from.

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And I've just, I kind of ran with it and we've been having a lot of fun with it.

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Good.

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And you had mentioned that we all find our niche, which I think is pretty progressive

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as far as my own podcast.

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But how did you guys come up with the older era storylines?

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Because I love those.

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Yeah, we do too.

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So I studied history in school and I'm a historic preservation professional in my day job.

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So I deal more with the built environment, but something about the older cases has always

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intrigued me.

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And I think, I don't know, I think it has to do, and this is maybe going to sound bad,

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but not a lot has changed in the last, you know, even thousands of years.

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Like we've unfortunately, as humans just find really horrible ways to treat each other.

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And even in looking at old news, from even a hundred years ago, the stories, the articles,

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the advertisements, just nothing, like it's all almost very similar.

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And I think just the fact that this has been going on for a long time is intriguing.

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And also look at how they solve cases back then, even like Peter Curtin, for example.

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Whenever they couldn't do anything with fingerprinting or DNA testing, it's just like, how did you

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even solve this crime?

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How did you find the killer?

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How?

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What's on your mind is so amazing that we can even do something like that, especially

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with the most minute little clues that we come across on crime scenes, a little piece

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of hair.

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I just finished an episode where they were able to find the killer based on cat hair

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that was left at the crime scene.

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Isn't that amazing?

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Holy cow.

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Oh my gosh.

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That's incredible.

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Yeah.

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Hey, side note too, Katie, by the way, I was stalking you guys a little bit this morning

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because I was trying to look for all your social medias and I came across you on LinkedIn.

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I sent you a LinkedIn request this morning.

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I will take a look.

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Awesome.

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Yeah.

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I thought that was interesting.

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I was looking at your background.

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That was neat when you were saying that you do historical preservations.

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And she was being modest.

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She actually has a master's degree in art history from Sotheby's in New York City.

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Wow.

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That is so cool.

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I like to brag on her.

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As well you should.

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She's being modest.

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That was going to be another life.

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I wanted to do music and work and it fell into preservation.

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I've always loved older buildings and it worked itself out.

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Good.

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Well, you guys found your niche from the get-go, I think, with the older eras.

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Do you feel you've gotten traction on your storylines or is it still developing?

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Yeah.

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I think we both try to pick cases.

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I tend to try to look for, in addition to those that are older, usually, I think, what

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did I say?

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50 or 75?

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Like 50 minimum?

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I think 50.

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I think 50 years.

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I've got it written down somewhere.

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Yeah.

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But also looking for kind of those lesser known cases.

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I think the one that comes to mind was the one that we did about the disappearance of,

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was it Hishiro?

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Yeah.

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It was a Japanese businessman.

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Yes.

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Yeah, the one that went overboard.

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Yes.

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Or we think that's what happened.

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But yeah, I randomly came across that looking in old newspapers for something else and I'm

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like, what in the world?

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And so then I fell down that rabbit hole.

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It's all about rabbit holes.

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It's so easy to do.

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Yeah.

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One rabbit hole will lead to another rabbit hole.

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That's how I even found Peter Curtin in the first place because I found the vampire first

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and then as I was trying to find pictures of that guy, I found pictures of this other

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monster which led to a whole other deep dive.

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So it's all about following the rabbit holes.

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Yes, absolutely.

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And I know I have to kind of just like put all that aside.

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There's so many times that I just want to drop what I'm already researching to start

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in on that one that I just discovered.

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But yeah, I can't do that.

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Otherwise, I'd never get anything done.

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Yes.

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Every time I find something that I want to do a rabbit hole on, I write it down.

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So I've got like a sticky note of all these random rabbit holes and then I start researching

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them and I'm like, oh yeah, that's right.

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So what do you guys find most challenging about true-crimining?

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Oh gosh.

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I find for me, it's when there's not a solid conclusion to the crime.

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That for me is the toughest because I want to know why.

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Why did this happen?

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What happened to the victim?

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What happened to the person committing the crime?

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Like I want everything to be wrapped up and tidy with a bow and when it's not, it drives

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me a little bum.

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Same thing with my sister Beth.

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She always likes that closure.

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I guess you can call it closure.

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But yeah, with me, I'm streamlining towards trying to find stories that there are at least

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some answers because I know where you're going with that and it's to me, it's also difficult.

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I like to give my victims names and voices and things like that.

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But yeah, to get answers.

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I found a lot too on some older cases where even DNA that wasn't around 20 years ago has

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helped solve the case, which is what we're actually going to go into in just a little

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bit.

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But yeah.

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I would like to have dinner with anybody, whether they are alive or not.

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Who would that be?

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Oh man.

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I'm going to try and make Emily cry.

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Oh geez.

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I know where you're going.

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Yeah.

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Probably our mom.

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Well, I know where you're coming from because I feel the same way.

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I would love to have dinner with my dad.

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He died back in 2006, so it's been a while.

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Sometimes you just think with me being here in the United States and him being up in Canada,

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I may not have appreciated everything that he communicated with me at the time.

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So to sit with him today and to let him know who I am today would just be phenomenal.

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So yeah, I get that.

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Yeah, I would.

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Well, where can we find you online?

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Yeah.

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So we are all over the socials, mostly on Instagram and Facebook.

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You can find us at Malice and Mocktails and we're on Twitter.

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I'm not honestly, probably not as active on Twitter, but it's Malice and Mocks.

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And you can email us at maliceandmocktails at gmail.com.

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Great.

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Well, thank you so much.

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Be sure to check Malice and Mocktails out with Katie and Emily on all their social medias

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and wherever you get your podcasts.

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Katie and M, are you ready to dash into my little story here?

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Yes.

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Let's go.

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Okay.

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When I first started developing these bonus episodes, I really thought I'd have a lot

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of happy endings, but unfortunately that's not the case because there's so many stories

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that you can come up with and the perpetrators may get caught.

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20 years later, I was hoping to give you guys a little bit better news, but the best I could

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do is bring you an unsolved case today that did come to light after a very long time.

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And I wouldn't say there is closure to this case because I really don't believe there's

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00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:25,120
full closure.

252
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:26,980
I think there are a lot of answers.

253
00:12:26,980 --> 00:12:30,820
We were talking about this a little while ago and I'd like to kind of start things off

254
00:12:30,820 --> 00:12:35,780
with my mini episodes here with just a question to get you guys thinking about the story.

255
00:12:35,780 --> 00:12:37,320
You guys live in Texas, right?

256
00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:38,320
Yes.

257
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:42,360
Have you ever considered or maybe you've done this, have you ever just up and moved just

258
00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,880
to get a change of scenery or even just for the adventure?

259
00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,880
Have you ever picked up and moved?

260
00:12:47,880 --> 00:12:48,880
No.

261
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:49,880
Yeah.

262
00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:51,180
I guess I could say yes.

263
00:12:51,180 --> 00:12:53,480
For graduate school, I moved to New York City.

264
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,480
Yeah.

265
00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:55,480
Okay.

266
00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:56,480
So change of scenery is nice.

267
00:12:56,480 --> 00:12:58,200
I did that about 10 years ago.

268
00:12:58,200 --> 00:12:59,200
I did that.

269
00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:03,120
I moved to North Carolina, lived there for a couple of years, found that that is a very

270
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,280
poor state as far as income.

271
00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:08,080
So I kind of boomeranged back to Georgia.

272
00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,520
But yeah, so I did that a few years myself.

273
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:16,000
And of course, for you listeners who've been around for a while, you know, I am originally

274
00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,000
from Canada.

275
00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,160
So yeah, I've lived here and there myself.

276
00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,240
But the reason I ask is because we're going to be talking about Sandra DeFelice and she

277
00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:31,180
was a 25 year old single mother who back in 1980 moved with one of her childhood friends

278
00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:35,720
from her home in Boise, Idaho over to Las Vegas, Nevada.

279
00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:37,360
So that's pretty cool.

280
00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:38,360
That's a big change.

281
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:39,840
Yeah, absolutely.

282
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,700
And I did want to mention, I'm not really sure if she was moving to be closer to family

283
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:49,760
or if she was just moving because in just a little bit, you'll see that one of her family

284
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,440
members was staying with someone else that she was close to.

285
00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:57,040
But I'm not really sure if she was moving to be closer to family.

286
00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,040
And the second thing I was going to do is refer to Sandra's roommate in this story simply

287
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,280
as her roommate, because I've not been able to find any names attached to her roommate.

288
00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,240
And I completely understand that.

289
00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:13,040
I'm sure over time, she probably wanted anonymity on this.

290
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:18,480
So I'll just refer to her as Sandra's roommate because she plays a pretty big role here.

291
00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:26,520
But on December 26th of 1980, Sandra was discovered by her boyfriend deceased somewhere around

292
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:33,000
9.30 PM in the home that Sandra did share with her roommate near 15th Street and Bonanza

293
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:37,120
Road, which is located just outside of Las Vegas.

294
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:43,280
Sandra's home for all purposes, you guys, it was just blocks away from the police department's

295
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,000
local communication center.

296
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,040
Oh no.

297
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,720
I just don't know if that really would have made a difference if there's going to be crime

298
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:55,960
in the area just because it's a couple blocks away, it's still going to happen.

299
00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:56,960
You know?

300
00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:58,640
You said it was the communication center.

301
00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,120
So it sounds like it's just dispatch, not the actual police department.

302
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,120
Yeah.

303
00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:04,680
So it might not be crawling with cops.

304
00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,400
It might just be dispatch.

305
00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,400
Yeah, you're right.

306
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,820
I mean, 911 and sending people out, I get that.

307
00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:14,620
So I didn't really look into all that, but I thought it was interesting.

308
00:15:14,620 --> 00:15:17,760
It's the same to say that it was just around the corner from there.

309
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,320
Well, Sandra was discovered in her bedroom covered with a comforter.

310
00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:27,440
And of course, her boyfriend initially thought that she was just sleeping, but he came across

311
00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:34,240
Sandra and the autopsy results later reported that she had been raped, strangled, stabbed,

312
00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,600
and beaten to death.

313
00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,760
So isn't that crazy?

314
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:39,760
That's a lot.

315
00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:40,760
Oh my, that's overkill.

316
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:41,760
Yeah.

317
00:15:41,760 --> 00:15:42,760
Yes.

318
00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:43,760
I totally agree with you.

319
00:15:43,760 --> 00:15:45,400
Did I mention she was a single mother?

320
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,640
I feel like I did.

321
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:47,640
Very briefly.

322
00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:48,640
Yeah.

323
00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:49,640
Yeah, very briefly.

324
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,280
Well, just to mention, I said, I wasn't sure if she had moved to be closer to her family,

325
00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,480
but her daughter was spending the night away at her grandparents' house, which I am thankful

326
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:00,480
for.

327
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:06,160
So she was in no way, I wanted to tell you upfront, she was not injured in this incident.

328
00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,040
Do we know how old she was at the time?

329
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,040
Yep.

330
00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:10,840
She was three years old, just a little toddler.

331
00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:12,360
Oh my God.

332
00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:18,120
Well, police initially identified a person of interest rather quickly in this case based

333
00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:24,220
on fingerprints left on a glass inside the house that Sandra and her roommate shared.

334
00:16:24,220 --> 00:16:29,680
These fingerprints belonged to an acquaintance of Sandra's roommate, so nothing really sketchy

335
00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,420
about that, just someone was in the house.

336
00:16:33,420 --> 00:16:38,960
They obviously knew whoever it was because they had that glass of water out on the counter,

337
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,400
out on the coffee table, wherever it was left.

338
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,320
And these fingerprints obviously were lifted at the crime scene and they did belong to

339
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:54,880
a 21-year-old man named Paul Nuttall, and I'm going to emphasize nut on Nuttall there.

340
00:16:54,880 --> 00:17:00,280
Sandra's roommate explained to the police that she did know him, but more so in passing

341
00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:01,280
than anything else.

342
00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:03,160
So he was not a regular visitor.

343
00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,040
He didn't come over often.

344
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:10,800
She mentioned that Nuttall was known in the area more so as a drifter than anything else.

345
00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,800
He would just go from house to house sleeping on people's coaches.

346
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,500
So she didn't really know him much more than just in passing.

347
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:21,520
If you were to go to a party and say hi to him or be introduced to him, that's really,

348
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:23,520
I think as far as it goes.

349
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:30,680
On December 26th, 1980, Nuttall appeared at Sandra's home first thing in the morning and

350
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:33,720
he asked if he could crash on the couch for the day.

351
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,720
Sandra's roommate was getting ready for work.

352
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:40,040
I mean, do you find that odd that somebody is going to show up first thing in the morning

353
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,240
to just borrow your house while you go off to work?

354
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,120
I was going to say it was the 1980s, but I feel like that's more common like the 60s

355
00:17:47,120 --> 00:17:48,680
or 70s, but I don't know.

356
00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,320
Even still, I would say call in the morning like, hey, can I crash at your place tonight?

357
00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,320
Yeah, and plus two, it was December 26th, so it was the holidays.

358
00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,600
Oh my gosh, that's right after Christmas.

359
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,860
So I had a fight with my family.

360
00:18:02,860 --> 00:18:03,860
Can I come over?

361
00:18:03,860 --> 00:18:05,120
I can't be with my family anymore.

362
00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:06,120
Yeah, that makes sense.

363
00:18:06,120 --> 00:18:07,120
Yeah, maybe.

364
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:08,780
I have nowhere to go and it's cold.

365
00:18:08,780 --> 00:18:10,080
Can I come to your house?

366
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,800
I'm at odds about that because he's just an acquaintance.

367
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:18,300
I'm sure she probably used her gut instincts and she said no to Nuttall.

368
00:18:18,300 --> 00:18:22,800
She told him that she had a roommate and she didn't think that Sandra would be comfortable

369
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,240
with a stranger in the house because Sandra was still sleeping.

370
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,680
Of course she told him no, which is great.

371
00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:29,680
Go room air.

372
00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,680
Yeah.

373
00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:35,480
Nuttall seemed to accept this, but he did continue to hang around and just talk with

374
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:38,320
the roommate while she's getting ready for work.

375
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:44,040
But I will tell you this, I kind of get some warm and fuzzy feelings from Sandra's roommate

376
00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:45,880
because she was being polite.

377
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,520
Maybe I don't know if you guys have ever been in the situation where you really wanted somebody

378
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,680
to leave, but you were too polite to ask them to leave.

379
00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:53,680
Yes.

380
00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:56,620
Yeah, I have too.

381
00:18:56,620 --> 00:19:01,920
She offered him a glass of water and of course that's where that glass came from that later

382
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:03,460
had his prints on it.

383
00:19:03,460 --> 00:19:09,200
The one thing that she felt gave her the heebie jeebies here is that she did see him hovering

384
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,280
around Sandra's door while she was getting ready for work.

385
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,640
He obviously knew somebody was in the house.

386
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,020
Maybe he was scoping, who knows?

387
00:19:18,020 --> 00:19:23,400
The roommate quickly wrapped things up after that and escorted Nuttall out the door with

388
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:29,280
her so that she went on her day as usual, didn't think anything more of it and there's

389
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:30,280
that.

390
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:32,000
That's where everything ends for now.

391
00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:33,080
Yeah, she did the right thing.

392
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,040
I think that she had a really good roommate.

393
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,040
Yeah.

394
00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:37,040
She had everything done.

395
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,960
Well, like I mentioned, Sandra's boyfriend found her later that night around 9.30 PM

396
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:49,520
and although the fingerprints were found on that glass, this case went cold for the next

397
00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:50,520
41 years.

398
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:51,520
What?

399
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:52,520
Oh my gosh.

400
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:53,520
Oh, isn't that crazy?

401
00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:54,520
Oh my gosh.

402
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:55,520
Wow.

403
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,600
I was going to ask, did they ever question the boyfriend?

404
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,040
They had to have.

405
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:00,040
You know what?

406
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,280
I actually read multiple articles on this and not once did I see he was ever questioned.

407
00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:10,760
I'm sure he probably was because we know as true crime podcasters, the people closest

408
00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:16,240
to you are going to be questioned, but I didn't see anything in there and even if he was,

409
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,680
I'm sure that they took him off the list pretty quickly.

410
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,840
And I also think too that he had a friend with him when they discovered Sandra.

411
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:29,480
So he did have somebody with him when they came into the house.

412
00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,800
But I'm going to fast forward to 2021.

413
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:39,080
In February that year, Las Vegas police received a call from Sandra's daughter who was three

414
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:40,960
years old back in 1980.

415
00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:46,480
Well, she's obviously in her forties by now and she wanted an update on this case.

416
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,520
So she called investigators to see if she could find out any information about what

417
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:51,680
happened to her mother.

418
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:52,680
That's awesome.

419
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:53,680
Yeah.

420
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:54,680
Wow.

421
00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:56,280
I don't know if you guys ever watched that show, Cold Case.

422
00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:57,320
Have you ever seen it?

423
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:58,320
I have not.

424
00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:59,320
I'm sure I have.

425
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:00,320
Okay.

426
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:01,320
Let's just a side note.

427
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:02,580
My God is such a good show.

428
00:21:02,580 --> 00:21:06,800
You guys, I swear I cannot go through one storyline without crying at the very end

429
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,840
because it shows what happened at the very beginning and then it goes through that person's

430
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:14,520
life before everything happens.

431
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:20,160
It is just so cool that Sandra's daughter came along and asked somebody to open up this

432
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:22,920
case, which we actually have answers on today.

433
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,440
So if you guys get a chance to watch that show, it's got really nothing to do with what

434
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,520
we're talking about today, but it's such a good show.

435
00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:29,960
I'm sure it's streaming somewhere.

436
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:30,960
Got to be.

437
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:31,960
Yeah.

438
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:32,960
All right.

439
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:40,040
Upon her request, police did reopen this case and DNA was submitted from some of the testing

440
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:41,040
sites.

441
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:47,800
They had a sexual assault kit that they tested for DNA and they were able to obtain male

442
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,240
DNA from underneath Sandra's fingernails.

443
00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,000
For her, she went back.

444
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:59,480
The DNA sample did match that fingerprint found on the glass back in 1980.

445
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:00,480
Oh my gosh.

446
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,480
I mean, right?

447
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:03,480
What?

448
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:12,080
In December of 2021, once these DNA results came back, they did positively link Paul Nuttall

449
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:17,960
as a suspect and investigators were able to obtain a search warrant to go get his DNA.

450
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:18,960
Yes.

451
00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:19,960
I know.

452
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:20,960
This is the happy part.

453
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,920
This is why I'm trying to lean towards this in the dash because I'm always trying to give

454
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,280
some kind of closure to these stories.

455
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:33,720
Police did confront Nuttall and they asked him if he knew who Sandra DeFelice was or her

456
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:34,720
roommate.

457
00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:37,080
Now, again, this is back in December, 2021.

458
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,080
He told them no.

459
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:39,520
He had no idea who they were.

460
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:41,480
Now remember, 41 years has passed.

461
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,880
He's in his 60s at this point.

462
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,000
I mean, are you going to remember somebody from 40 years ago?

463
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,000
No.

464
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,000
I'm sure you guys don't have.

465
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:49,000
You can't.

466
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,000
You guys haven't been there yet.

467
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,000
You guys have been there before once.

468
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,720
I can still really tell you no.

469
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:59,800
Well, I know I'm not because honestly, I'm an 80s child and I know the faces and some

470
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,440
of the names of my high school classmates, but there are some that I can remember their

471
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:05,440
faces right now.

472
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,320
I don't remember their names from 40 years ago.

473
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:09,320
Yeah.

474
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,400
Well, you know what'll get people nowadays?

475
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:13,400
Facebook friends.

476
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:18,800
I still have Facebook friends from college that were just acquaintances or drinking buddies

477
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,160
and I'm Facebook friends with all of them.

478
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,040
So people aren't going to be able to get away with that anymore.

479
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:25,040
That is true.

480
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,200
And if you're from my era, you're going to get them from my space.

481
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,200
Yes.

482
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:30,200
Yeah.

483
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,200
Nice.

484
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,480
I tried logging into mine like seven years ago and it still existed.

485
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:35,480
Well, that's what I'm saying.

486
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,280
Once it's on the internet, it's there forever you all.

487
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,760
So just be careful what you put out there.

488
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,020
Well, also you guys, I think too that Nuddle was a drifter back then.

489
00:23:45,020 --> 00:23:50,760
So he may have just met Sandra in passing, didn't catch her name, anything like that.

490
00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,520
So he probably didn't have a lot of interactions with her.

491
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,720
He may not have ever had interactions with her other than that morning that he came by.

492
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:03,640
There was something called a, I think it's called a buccal swab, which is where they

493
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:07,160
take that long Q-tip and they swab the inner cheek.

494
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:14,200
Nuddle agreed to this DNA swab, which obviously came up as a match with what was found under

495
00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:20,280
Sandra's fingernails and the DNA was compared with that fingerprint on the glass.

496
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,440
And you guys can come to your conclusions from here.

497
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,040
Why would he submit to a DNA test if he didn't it?

498
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:28,040
Well he had a warrant.

499
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,240
How can you forget, how can you forget graphically murdering somebody?

500
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,160
Maybe he suppressed it so much that it just, I don't know.

501
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,640
I don't know people, the brain is fascinating.

502
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:44,680
You're saying that he traumatized himself with this brutal rape and murder?

503
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,840
I am just throwing stuff out there.

504
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,760
And plus we don't know his psychological capacities at the time because...

505
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,640
He was on drugs.

506
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:58,120
Yeah, and nothing in the articles that I read even talked about that either.

507
00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,600
So I'm in the dark just like you are.

508
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,120
I have no idea.

509
00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:07,880
Well at the age of 64, Paul Nuddle was arrested for the murder of Sandra De Feliz and he was

510
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:13,120
charged with burglary, sexual assault and murder for these crimes that he committed

511
00:25:13,120 --> 00:25:15,800
when he was only 21 years old.

512
00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,800
Wow.

513
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:17,800
Yeah, it's crazy.

514
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:18,800
Wow.

515
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:20,040
I know, right?

516
00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:25,400
As the wheels of justice churned, Paul Nuddle was detained until he went to trial.

517
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:32,040
He received two psychiatric assessments from mental health professionals and get this,

518
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,480
this might be why he couldn't remember who these people were when he was asked.

519
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,680
He was found to be unfit for trial.

520
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:40,680
Dementia.

521
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,680
Alzheimer's?

522
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:47,360
Yeah, one or the other because as of December 26th, 2022, which is just a couple months

523
00:25:47,360 --> 00:25:54,240
ago, he was held without bail at a state psychiatric facility until he is deemed to stand trial

524
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,580
for the murder of Sandra De Feliz.

525
00:25:56,580 --> 00:25:57,920
And here's the clincher.

526
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,460
And this is why I say, I mean, we don't really know.

527
00:26:00,460 --> 00:26:02,240
Does he have dementia or not?

528
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:03,840
Those were great guesses.

529
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:09,640
Judge Christy Craig, who is currently overseeing this case, is holding Nuddle at that psychiatric

530
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:16,000
facility until they can discover if he indeed has the mental capacities to stand trial or

531
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,440
if he's just faking it.

532
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,280
She believes he could be faking it.

533
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:21,280
Oh my gosh.

534
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,280
Isn't that something?

535
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,000
You learn about it and then you just pretend.

536
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,240
She said, how do you fake dementia and Alzheimer's?

537
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,240
And you just lie.

538
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:30,240
You lie your face off.

539
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,280
But it's so hard to keep up with lies.

540
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:36,120
Well, couldn't they do a brain, like an MRI or something?

541
00:26:36,120 --> 00:26:39,200
The one that show parts of your brain?

542
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,040
I don't know if dementia and Alzheimer's actually affect brain lights up.

543
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:47,400
Well, I will tell you this, I don't know if you guys have heard, but you know how they

544
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:53,600
would take football players who have had multiple concussions and they would scan their brain?

545
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:54,600
Yes.

546
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,720
I think they're doing a lot of research on there.

547
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:02,200
Obviously, we don't have answers on Alzheimer's yet at this point in time, but I think they're

548
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,400
getting closer.

549
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,640
So yeah, they probably did do a scan.

550
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,240
At this point, they're just holding him at that facility just to figure out what's going

551
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,240
on with him.

552
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:12,800
He could have dementia.

553
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,080
His defense attorneys are arguing that he does suffer from dementia because I believe

554
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:24,080
from some of the evaluations that he's had is that he is having trouble differentiating

555
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,540
between time and space.

556
00:27:26,540 --> 00:27:32,200
So that might be the reason why he said he did not remember those names when he was questioned.

557
00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,800
Now, investigators do not believe...

558
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:35,800
What's that?

559
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:36,800
You have another question.

560
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:43,040
I'm going to have to look up if Alzheimer's actually affect...

561
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,840
Obviously, they affect the brain, but is it going to show up in an MRI?

562
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:47,480
Is it going to show up?

563
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,440
Probably not in a CAT scan, but are they going to have to pull out the big guns and spend

564
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,640
big monies to do the overtime scans and how...

565
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:56,640
And compare.

566
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,320
Are they actually going to want to do that in a trial?

567
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,640
Probably not unless it's like a big case.

568
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:07,320
Or is he just going to end up sitting there and if he does in fact have dementia, just

569
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:08,800
continue to deteriorate?

570
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:09,800
Yeah.

571
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,560
And he's in the right spot for that if he is.

572
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:12,560
Well, yeah.

573
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:19,040
I mean, he's better to be there for sure if he does in fact have this horrible disease.

574
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:24,640
And I'll tell you too, I did see a picture of him and first of all, he looks ultra scary,

575
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:25,920
like uber scary.

576
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,200
I would not want to meet him face to face.

577
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:32,880
But secondly, I can kind of see that he's maybe deteriorating just a little bit.

578
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,360
I mean, that's just me just outsider looking in, but if you were to see his face, go look

579
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:38,360
him up.

580
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:39,360
You might agree with me.

581
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:40,360
I'm not really sure.

582
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:41,360
Yeah.

583
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:47,440
So investigators do not even believe that Sandra DeFelice is Nuttall's only victim in

584
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:52,040
this case as far as sexual assaults back in the 80s.

585
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:58,880
So to our listeners, if you believe that you are a victim of Paul Nuttall, you can contact

586
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:11,020
the Las Vegas Metro Police Department at 702-828-3421 or call Crime Stoppers at 702-385-5555.

587
00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:16,520
So little side note, you all, that's really the story behind Sandra DeFelice.

588
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:17,680
That's why I call it the dash.

589
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:18,680
It's not that long.

590
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:19,680
Yeah.

591
00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,200
And I wanted to give you guys a side note on this because the house, unfortunately,

592
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:30,160
where she was found is now the Las Vegas headquarters for a little motorcycle group that you may

593
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,560
have heard of them called the Hells Angels.

594
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:33,560
Wow.

595
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:34,560
Wow.

596
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:35,560
I know.

597
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:36,560
Isn't that something?

598
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:37,560
That is.

599
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:38,560
That's kind of metal.

600
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,280
Well, they have to set up shop somewhere.

601
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:42,760
I don't want to go past them.

602
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,760
Oh my gosh.

603
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:45,880
Wow.

604
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:49,400
That is the story of Sandra DeFelice.

605
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,080
I had never heard of this case before, and I'm glad that you're able to share it with

606
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,480
us because that's bonkers.

607
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:56,480
Yeah.

608
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,840
I'm always, I'm trying to find stories where we do have some answers on this.

609
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:06,960
Now, I have no idea how long it's going to take for him to go to trial, but hopefully

610
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,960
within the next year, I mean, they say the wheels of justice do go rather slowly, but

611
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,360
hopefully they will come up with some answers later and he can go to trial.

612
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,900
If not, I mean, I hope he's in the right space where he needs to be.

613
00:30:19,900 --> 00:30:23,720
If he does have dementia, that's never a good thing for anybody, but still.

614
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,720
At least he's in a facility that way he's not out and about there.

615
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:28,720
Right.

616
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,800
Even if, especially if he doesn't have dementia, he's no longer on the streets.

617
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:37,680
Yes, but I don't know how long they can keep him if they find him fit.

618
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,400
So I guess if they find him fit, he's going to go to trial and they have his DNA.

619
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,760
So he's going to go to prison.

620
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:44,760
Yeah.

621
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,760
So there you go.

622
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:51,000
We're going to tell our listeners to be sure to check out Katie and Emily with Malice and

623
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,520
Mocktails wherever you get your podcasts, plus on Instagram and all their social medias.

624
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:57,520
Cool.

625
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:58,520
Thank you so much.

626
00:30:58,520 --> 00:30:59,520
This was so fun.

627
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:00,520
That was a lot of fun.

628
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:01,520
Yeah.

629
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:05,520
I am just loving that I'm talking to so many podcasters.

630
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:10,360
It's really cool to listen to everybody and then have a two-way conversation because I

631
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,080
get to know you as I'm listening to your podcasts.

632
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,960
I'm getting to know everything about your personalities and then to talk to you is just

633
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,400
such a great experience.

634
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,160
So thank you so much for being here.

635
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,160
Oh, you're welcome.

636
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,160
You're very welcome.

637
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,160
Thanks so much for having us.

638
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,160
Absolutely.

639
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:30,520
Thanks for listening to Dying to be Found, True Crime Podcast and our Dash mini-series.

640
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:35,760
Every week, we'll bring you a variety of True Crime episodes, a little dash of hope,

641
00:31:35,760 --> 00:31:39,480
plus special bonus episodes with some really cool guests.

642
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:44,520
Before we go, we'd love for you to share this podcast with your friends and give us a five-star

643
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:45,520
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644
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:52,300
Follow us on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, and Pinterest at Dying to be Found or visit

645
00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:57,600
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646
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,340
Better yet, click on our Linktree account found in the show notes where you'll find all the

647
00:32:02,340 --> 00:32:04,400
information in one place.

648
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,800
Be sure to dash in every Wednesday for our mini-episodes, plus every Thursday when I

649
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,400
get together with some of my family members.

650
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:34,760
Thanks again, everyone, and we'll talk to you soon.