1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:15,000 Welcome to End the Seams, a podcast by Broken and Mended with your host, David Heflin. 2 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:21,840 Alright, well this is David Heflin. 3 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,280 I want to welcome all of you guys back to End the Seams. 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,080 I know it's been a while since I've been on here to share anything with you, but I'm 5 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:34,800 excited today because I got a special treat where I've got a couple of guys here. 6 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:39,240 It might get a little confusing in the conversation as both of them are named Jeremy. 7 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:43,680 If I need to differentiate, we've got Jeremy Harrison and Jeremy Wright, so I'll probably 8 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:49,040 just say Jeremy H or Jeremy W as we go forward. 9 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:52,920 But my connections with them are very different. 10 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:57,040 I've known Jeremy Harrison for many, many years, a couple of decades, and we're very 11 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,560 good friends and have known each other's stories both with chronic illness and many 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,120 other things for quite a while. 13 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:08,520 And Jeremy's wife, Holly, has been suffering from chronic illness and we'll have him talk 14 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:10,280 this about that in a little bit. 15 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:15,880 But did offer Jeremy Wright, who also has a wife who's suffering from chronic illness. 16 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,160 By the way, both Jeremy's are in ministry and so they've had that kind of dealing with 17 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,480 ministry along with dealing with a spouse with chronic illness. 18 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,920 And I haven't known Jeremy Wright for very long, known him maybe about a year. 19 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:29,920 We were just talking about that a moment ago. 20 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,240 They have enjoyed getting acquainted. 21 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:38,280 But I really wanted to have both of you here today and I appreciate you guys being here 22 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:43,160 because we really need to be able to, I think, bring attention to the fact that chronic illness 23 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,840 is not something that impacts only the person who's actually suffering with the disease 24 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:48,840 or the pain. 25 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,840 It's something that impacts everyone in the family. 26 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:52,640 And it does on many different levels. 27 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,000 I mean, I think it does in terms of how it impacts the way that you're living out your 28 00:01:57,000 --> 00:01:59,280 married life and living out your family life. 29 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:04,880 But I think also you guys have probably experienced a burden for the suffering of your wives too 30 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,080 and wanted to help them and maybe at times have felt helpless. 31 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,640 I mean, I think that's something that chronic illness does to all of us. 32 00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:15,080 It certainly doesn't leave any illusions of control. 33 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,000 So what I'll do is I kind of go through these questions guys. 34 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:23,480 I'll just probably alternate which one if I ask you to speak first, I'll let Jeremy 35 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:24,480 H. take the lead. 36 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,200 This is going to start with this first question. 37 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,760 But thank you both for being here. 38 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:33,360 And Jeremy, just give us a little background if you would to begin with describing nature 39 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:38,280 of your wife's chronic condition and just maybe how long she's been living with it. 40 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:40,040 How long you guys have been living with it? 41 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,040 Yeah. 42 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:42,040 Thank you, David. 43 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:43,040 Thank you for having us on. 44 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:44,920 Thank you for this ministry that touches so many people. 45 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:49,760 It's a bless our lives, I'm honored to be part of this podcast today. 46 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:56,320 So Holly's had chronic pain since I've known her and we met when she was 18 and she's 47 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:58,720 had that pain since she was really a child. 48 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,120 She thinks back to even age 10 or so. 49 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:07,920 She's had just some joint pain and muscle pain and we've seen many doctors, many specialists 50 00:03:07,920 --> 00:03:12,840 spent much time, energy and money trying to get answers and usually not getting anything 51 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,920 definable and not a lot of remedies have helped. 52 00:03:17,920 --> 00:03:18,920 Nothing I can do. 53 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:23,920 Massaging doesn't help in the things you try and she's tried gluten free diets and 54 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:29,080 other alternative ways to eat, to alleviate certain allergens and things like that. 55 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:30,080 And nothing usually helped. 56 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,760 And so it's been a long journey for her. 57 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:39,000 She's kind of now at the point in her early 40s of almost resignation to dealing with 58 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,320 pain the rest of her life. 59 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:42,320 Almost no hope anymore. 60 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:44,000 Maybe we had hope earlier. 61 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:47,920 Maybe we'll get an answer from somebody and it just seems like that's not coming for 62 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:48,920 us yet. 63 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:53,360 So we're kind of at a point in just how we manage this for her and make her life comfortable 64 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:54,360 and livable. 65 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,200 Well, thank you for that, Jeremy. 66 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,960 And I think even as long as I've known you, I didn't realize it went back that far. 67 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:06,240 So that was eye opening for me as well. 68 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:11,200 Jeremy, Devia, how about you and your situation with your wife, Alicia? 69 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,080 Yeah, absolutely. 70 00:04:13,080 --> 00:04:16,960 We've been married since 2007. 71 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:22,680 And the first sign of symptoms was Thanksgiving 2019. 72 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:24,840 So yeah, kind of the opposite end of the spectrum. 73 00:04:24,840 --> 00:04:31,960 We have kind of had to adjust and learn to live with disability that kind of popped up 74 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:32,960 unexpectedly. 75 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:33,960 Right? 76 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:37,160 And so we're three years in. 77 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:42,600 During this past year was kind of a monumental anniversary and with it falling around that 78 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:48,640 time, came with kind of the heaviness of some of the same things you mentioned, Jeremy, 79 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:57,880 just of the recognizing hopelessness in the sense of every neurologist, neurolgist, orthopedist, 80 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:01,800 rheumatologist, right, going through all the spectrum. 81 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,760 And we're still undiagnosed. 82 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,280 We're under the care now of a specialist at Vanderbilt, rheumatology. 83 00:05:08,280 --> 00:05:12,000 So we're two visits in and we're waiting on a third. 84 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:14,400 Our last visit was first of December. 85 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,800 Our next one is less than a month out now, February or March 6th. 86 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,600 So we're just under a month from our next one. 87 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,640 But so far, we haven't been able to get any answers. 88 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:27,240 It's just what it's not, right? 89 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:33,200 It's not Lyme disease, it's not MS, it's not this particular thing. 90 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:40,080 So they're narrowing us down to complex regional pain syndrome or a form of fibromyalgia. 91 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,120 But the big picture for us lately has been that same thing. 92 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:49,880 Okay, let's adjust to this being what life looks like for the rest of our days. 93 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,360 And so coming through that same thing of looking for a place of confident hope in the right 94 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,880 now while we aren't sure of what's going to be coming ahead. 95 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,480 Sure. 96 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,280 That's hard. 97 00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:06,800 That's a hard place to be in with the uncertain diagnosis. 98 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:10,880 And most people that have been through this, especially with autoimmune disease issues 99 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:16,240 and things like that, have dealt with kind of a hard to pin down kind of diagnosis. 100 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:21,480 But I feel for you in that and I hope you can get some answers. 101 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:26,960 I know each of those appointments then become kind of precious and even sacred moments where 102 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:27,960 they're hard. 103 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:33,920 Man, you got to want to try to get some answers and I know how important those are and how 104 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,920 each of those dates kind of loom on the calendar. 105 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:39,520 And that what's it called? 106 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:43,080 You said a chronic regional pain syndrome. 107 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:45,000 Yeah, complex regional pain. 108 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,000 Complex. 109 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,480 Yeah, that's an exceptionally painful disease. 110 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:51,560 Of course, fibromyalgia would be too. 111 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,240 So either way, feeling something very, you know, very difficult. 112 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,200 Let me stay with you for just a minute. 113 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:05,800 Here at Jeremy and, you know, since this is so new and I'm going to assume that suddenness 114 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:11,480 of it has kind of blindsided you, but as well as, you know, just the frustration of kind 115 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:12,480 of getting a diagnosis. 116 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:16,280 But I wanted you to kind of, if you could speak to maybe some of the initial changes 117 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:21,280 that you face, some of the, some of those early frustrations that this has brought 118 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,680 to you and marriage and family. 119 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,800 Maybe another way of wording it would be what impact the chronic illness have on you and 120 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,920 your marriage in the early days of the illness. 121 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:36,280 Even though you might consider yourself still early days, I mean, you're three years in 122 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,320 and you've been dealing with it for a bit now. 123 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:42,680 So how's that impact you guys? 124 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,120 Yeah, ours are set in progressively. 125 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:52,560 So initially it wasn't quite as intense as it has been in the last year and a half to 126 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:54,600 two years. 127 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,720 So initially it almost kind of snuck up as this thing that changes your life, but you 128 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:02,400 don't think it should. 129 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:07,120 And so you think, oh, this just dealing with this pain, maybe this physical therapy will 130 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:12,880 help, maybe the chiropractor will help, maybe, you know, this orthopedist can give me some 131 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:18,920 relief, but there's not really a recognition of how much of a toll it takes. 132 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,360 And so the initial inward struggle for us was just the reality of some of those things 133 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,720 that we can't do that we desperately want to. 134 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:36,520 So for her hospitality, it's just her gift, her joy, and we would have people in our home 135 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,880 every Sunday and multiple times through the week. 136 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:44,160 And then you face a new reality that says, I so desperately want to do that. 137 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:46,040 I just, I can't. 138 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:54,040 And so you budget all your spoons for a day, you spend all your time in the morning being 139 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,200 very careful all afternoon because you have something you want to go to at six o'clock 140 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:02,480 and then four o'clock rolls around and, you know, you just can't. 141 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:09,440 And so for us early on, grappling with the reality of grieving, right, that kind of loss 142 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:17,600 and realizing this is something that has been taken away from me, something I used to have 143 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,720 that I can no longer enjoy. 144 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,720 And so to process that grief early on was really tough. 145 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:29,840 And then just some of the uniqueness, we have been a part of this church family for 12 years 146 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:34,760 now and they've been amazing and super supportive. 147 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:39,040 And yet, you know, this is a really unique walk, right? 148 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:44,440 And especially early on and without a diagnosis, you're not saying something someone can relate 149 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:45,440 to. 150 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,240 You know, you're not saying I have cancer. 151 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,320 I have MS. 152 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:54,680 I have a category that someone understands and then can kind of sympathize with. 153 00:09:54,680 --> 00:10:00,080 So just the disappointment with people. 154 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:06,080 And as much as, you know, we've had a great support system early on, some of those meaningful 155 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:12,200 relationships in our lives were strained and severed on account of our inability, right? 156 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:18,400 And because it's something you don't really see it, you know, for most of the last little 157 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,200 bit getting out on a Sunday morning when she's able is the only time she's out during the 158 00:10:23,200 --> 00:10:24,200 week. 159 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:28,800 And so someone who just sees her on a Sunday goes, you know, I can tell she's in pain or 160 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,760 this is the conversation. 161 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:35,960 They don't really see all the work and the struggle and the things that go on behind 162 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:36,960 that. 163 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:43,000 So for us to learn and for our anthropology, our theology of man to kind of catch up with 164 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,080 reality and to realize people don't have a category for this, we can't expect them to 165 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,200 understand some of these difficulties. 166 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,520 And so we use the language now having processed it of baggage, right? 167 00:10:56,520 --> 00:10:59,840 As someone asks, Hey, how are you doing? 168 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,320 You know, we think about it as I'm going to unload some stuff on you. 169 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,040 I'm going to hand you some really heavy things. 170 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:05,040 How am I doing? 171 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:07,160 I couldn't get out of bed yesterday. 172 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:12,440 Well, early on we expected them to like, Oh, please, let me carry that load for you. 173 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,240 And it took a while for us to realize not everyone's capable of doing that. 174 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:21,360 So dealing with and processing some of that disappointment and trying to grow in patience 175 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:27,320 and understanding for people that, you know, didn't have a category for sure. 176 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:32,200 I appreciate you sharing that point out, because that's not just something that the person 177 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:38,040 that's literally going through the symptoms is experiences, but both of you and having 178 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:42,920 to try to relate that to other people, what's going on and when do you relate something? 179 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,920 When do you, you know, sometimes you just want to say, Oh, I'm fine and go on like 180 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:46,920 everybody else. 181 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:48,840 You know, and so you're always kind of weighing that. 182 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:49,840 I know. 183 00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:52,200 And you mentioned the spoon theory. 184 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,920 I think most of our listeners will be familiar with that, but if you do not, just Google 185 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:57,920 spoon theory. 186 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,080 And I forget the woman who came up with it. 187 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,280 It's the basic idea that you've got so many spoons a day and you choose where you're 188 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:06,280 going to spend them. 189 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:07,880 And when those spoons are gone, they're gone. 190 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:12,760 And so for someone with chronic illness, they may only be starting with five spoons 191 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:17,560 in a day, you know, whereas a person who's fully healthy might have 30, you know, so 192 00:12:17,560 --> 00:12:18,560 to speak. 193 00:12:18,560 --> 00:12:22,720 And then so by the time you've gotten up and gotten ready, you just, you spend a spoon. 194 00:12:22,720 --> 00:12:26,520 If you had to go to work, well, you may spend the rest of those spoons and come home and 195 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:27,800 not be able to do anything else. 196 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:31,400 I think I did this helpful language sometimes to be able to talk to the people. 197 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,360 Of course, that's how that theory came about. 198 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,400 I know the lady who came up with it was trying to explain her to her friend what was going 199 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:40,280 on and there was a bunch of spoons sitting on a table. 200 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,280 And so she pulled them out, you know, and she kind of coined that term. 201 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:49,080 She kind of owns the rights to that term or something like that. 202 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:54,720 But anyway, but it's a, it's a good illustration or a good metaphor to think about these things. 203 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:02,680 But yes, our relationships with other people, you know, that in trying to explain and relate 204 00:13:02,680 --> 00:13:06,960 what is going to be helpful, but you know, you can't ever get it all across, you know, 205 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:10,360 it's always going to be a struggle to know how much to share. 206 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:15,440 And what about you, Jeremy H, what's, and yours again, as I look at it and thinking 207 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,560 about, well, let me ask you this, as you think about what we've already been talking about, 208 00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:20,080 I want you to just kind of add to that. 209 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:25,320 But I do want to ask you specifically something because you mentioned your wife, this really 210 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:29,640 goes back into her teenage years, some of the struggles that she's had. 211 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:35,040 Was there a kind of a defining period of time where you guys kind of knew that it was escalating 212 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:39,120 or you knew you were going to have to do something to start addressing it with doctors? 213 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,200 Or is that just really just happened gradually over, over all, over a long period of time? 214 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,640 Yeah, it did seem to exacerbate after childbirth. 215 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:52,880 You know, for her, it was there in college and our earliest are dating and early marriage, 216 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,920 manageable, not debilitating on the daily life as far as that goes. 217 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:02,120 But something, especially after her second child, we have three. 218 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,120 After our second child, it seemed like her body really went into a different gear with 219 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:13,080 pain, joints, achiness, just really getting through each day a real battle. 220 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,960 You know, and with that comes the death of dreams. 221 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:19,240 The death of dreams of being an active mom with your kids, like getting down and playing 222 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:24,640 or going to basketball, like doing things on the bike that just, that aren't possible. 223 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:30,120 Or if she does that stuff, she pays doubly for it the next day and is really in a bad 224 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,120 place. 225 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,120 And the death of some of my dreams too. 226 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:35,360 I run, I love to run. 227 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,440 I've had dreams always of running with my girlfriend, my wife, and that's just not possible, you 228 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,200 know, to share those active lives together. 229 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,280 I kind of sometimes have, I guess, the equivalent of survivor's guilt for someone who's healthy 230 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,040 because I don't have pain. 231 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,240 I'm older than Holly by a few years and I'm actively active and grateful, but I feel guilty. 232 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,440 I would love to give some of that to her and take some of her pain onto myself so we could 233 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,120 share something together, but that's just not possible. 234 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:05,880 So I feel a bit guilty that I'm able to be active and she's, you know, in bed and hurting 235 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:08,640 in another layer too. 236 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,080 And this may force you out of a coming question. 237 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:12,680 So forgive me if I'm getting ahead. 238 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:13,680 It's okay. 239 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,960 I think, and Dave, you and I have talked about this before with our conversations in the 240 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:19,960 past. 241 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:26,640 The fact that the pain seems to have no purpose is so hard. 242 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,320 If we knew this pain had a greater meaning and was doing something better in the kingdom 243 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:38,080 and glorifying the Lord in some unique way, we could probably endure it and find some 244 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:43,040 deep motivation to kind of struggle through that, but it just seems so pointless and like, 245 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:44,920 why would you not take this away from this young woman? 246 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:46,480 Why would you not give this young woman? 247 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,080 No, we've prayed for healing. 248 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:49,080 We've anointed with oil. 249 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,320 We've seen all the things, all the allogists that Jeremy W mentioned. 250 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:53,320 We've done that. 251 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:59,120 We've been around that track many times and for Holly, just not seeing a purpose or a 252 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,560 greater reason for that pain is mentally just overwhelming. 253 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:10,440 I think if we had a reason to endure the pain and saw some good from it, it might be more 254 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,400 manageable that it just doesn't seem to have that purpose. 255 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,640 Sure. 256 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:21,280 And that's, I think if anyone else tries to speak into that, that's kind of thin ice, 257 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:22,280 you know what I mean? 258 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:27,520 Because that's something a person has to come into understanding in their own time and walk 259 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:31,080 with God, whether they can find purpose in it or not. 260 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,880 So that is a really, that is a real issue. 261 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:40,120 I think people are in different places about it and someone else may come to a realization 262 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:44,840 of some kind of purpose in it very early on in their journey and others may never really 263 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:45,840 feel that. 264 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,240 And I think in either case, of course, we're all, and I should mention that our audience, 265 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,280 I've already mentioned, you know, to our audience, you guys are in ministry and so I'm sure they 266 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,200 understand you guys are faithful Christians. 267 00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:02,600 You know, I'm to Christ is sometimes all that we can do in those situations, you know, you 268 00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:07,440 know, finding purpose is kind of a different, not say it's an unrelated activity, but it's 269 00:17:07,440 --> 00:17:10,880 a different kind of a, it's just something that's very personal, you know, 270 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,080 It's a way to redeem the pain. 271 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:14,640 It's a way to redeem the pain. 272 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:15,640 Yeah. 273 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:18,040 I appreciate you opening up about that. 274 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:21,480 I really do. 275 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:26,240 Let me talk about a little bit with our spouses in terms of, you know, differences in the 276 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,160 way we communicate, the way we process these things. 277 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,720 And I, because I don't know how this will be for you guys. 278 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,360 I know my wife and I are very different about this. 279 00:17:34,360 --> 00:17:39,080 I'm a, I'm a very analytical person and I'm always thinking about things and outcomes 280 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:45,120 and possibilities and as part of the way I process things and I way back when I was having 281 00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:53,120 to go to the Mayo Clinic, I think 2013 and there were some potential serious, maybe even 282 00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:58,840 life threatening, you know, implications to what we were going there to find out about 283 00:17:58,840 --> 00:17:59,840 myself. 284 00:17:59,840 --> 00:18:02,000 And I needed to talk about that. 285 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,120 He, he couldn't talk about this for her. 286 00:18:05,120 --> 00:18:08,360 He was like, well, we don't know that yet. 287 00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:13,000 And therefore I really can't, I'm not, I'm not going to go there because for her, that 288 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:18,840 was just wasn't a very safe place, I guess, you know, scary to. 289 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,920 We've, I mean, we've talked about this and I've had, we've never gone a couple scouts. 290 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,760 I've been to a counselor several times over the years and kind of talked about different 291 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:31,520 ways in which we could meet each other's needs in that regard because sometimes I do need 292 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:32,520 to talk about it. 293 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:34,400 I need, and I want to talk about it with her. 294 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,520 Just makes sense. 295 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,200 She's not opposed to me talking about the end of the moment stuff. 296 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:40,920 So I'm not, I want to be clear about that. 297 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,160 If I'm having a bad day and I need to talk, I mean, I'm just talking about those unknowns, 298 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,800 you know, and so we have found that we have kind of different ways of dealing with it 299 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,760 and different ways of communicating about it. 300 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,680 We've kind of had to learn to work, you know, through some of that. 301 00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:00,120 If you guys had to discover any of that yourselves and again, I'll put back to actually Jeremy 302 00:19:00,120 --> 00:19:04,120 H who will continue to continue on that thought and go to Jeremy right here. 303 00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:05,640 Yeah, you know, we're different people. 304 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,920 Obviously, we have different ways of processing things and communicating. 305 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:16,520 I'm more the emotive thinker and feeler and I want to verbalize things and have that conversation. 306 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:22,400 Polly is a little more like you, David, and wants to kind of internalize process on her 307 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:25,480 own for a bit. 308 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:31,960 And when we share, it's usually not, you know, in the same kind of kind of heart language, 309 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,000 if you will. 310 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:42,160 And so I often will make a bid or an attempt to talk about it or how you do in babe, like, 311 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:43,160 have you been this week? 312 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,160 How's your pain? 313 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,840 You know, and some some days that's that's I'm just making it, you know, handling it, 314 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,880 you know, and just kind of a short curt. 315 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:55,000 That's the usual response and nothing too deep. 316 00:19:55,000 --> 00:20:00,640 But when she does open up and when it has kind of built up enough that the pressure is to 317 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:07,480 the top, I mean, the emotions spill over for her and their tears and their questions and 318 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,520 there's, you know, emotions toward God that are all over the spectrum with with anger 319 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,400 and wanting an explanation, this feeling of unfairness. 320 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:21,800 There's been very tender moments that I really treasure as her husband. 321 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:25,920 And I just wish again, there were some answers that were able to offer in that situation. 322 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:35,520 Yeah, we, you know, so I just take that into advisement for myself and and don't pride 323 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,800 to too much, you know, kind of let her know that I'm always open and available. 324 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:42,800 Talk about it. 325 00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:47,520 But kind of give her the chance to make the opening remark and make sure she's ready to 326 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:53,440 go there because it is it's even I as her husband can't fully understand what it's like 327 00:20:53,440 --> 00:20:58,320 to go through each day with with just pain that you're just suffering through and trying 328 00:20:58,320 --> 00:20:59,320 to manage. 329 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:04,320 You know, when when your best days are, yeah, it didn't hurt too bad. 330 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,200 I could get up and do a few things today when that's as good as it gets. 331 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:12,160 They day out with three kids and a wife as a wife and a husband, you know, a husband, 332 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,880 it just it gets challenging. 333 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:18,120 So I want to give her the first move in those situations. 334 00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:19,120 Yeah, sense. 335 00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:25,480 And by the way, so I don't think I mentioned earlier that you had three kids. 336 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:26,960 Jeremy W, you have kids. 337 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:34,360 We've got four, we've got 1310 and then five, almost six year old twins. 338 00:21:34,360 --> 00:21:35,360 Goodness. 339 00:21:35,360 --> 00:21:39,040 So yeah, your hands are full anyway. 340 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:44,920 You know, if everyone was healthy and going along smoothly, it's a it's a lot to process. 341 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:51,360 And so would you add anything to what Jeremy H said, Jeremy W about kind of communicating 342 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:54,800 with the wife and how you had to learn to adjust and all that stuff? 343 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:58,560 Yeah, I resonate a ton with that and sort of the same. 344 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:07,520 I from a different perspective, I'm the the one who feels less or emotes less or would 345 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:12,680 say, you know, not super in touch with emotional life in the past. 346 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:18,480 And so as these feelings hit, really the hard part for me was understanding and processing 347 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,560 and then living with my wife, you know, in an understanding way. 348 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:28,600 And so I can remember initially as a as a problem solver, as a fixer, I would say, okay, 349 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,240 well, here's a here's a need. 350 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:31,520 Here's a lack in our home. 351 00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:32,880 Oh, I'll fill the gap. 352 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,320 Let's let's hire a babysitter. 353 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:36,720 Let's have someone help clean. 354 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:41,840 Like let's fill these things because I thought, oh, let me take this off of you. 355 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,160 Not realizing, well, hey, that's that's something I want to do. 356 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:46,280 And that's from her perspective. 357 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,280 I that's something it feels like I should be doing. 358 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:57,280 And my pinching for fixing was not the most helpful way to come into that piece of communication. 359 00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:03,080 So it took me a while to learn, you know, hey, come at this from a more understanding 360 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:09,200 perspective and think a couple of tracks deeper than just, you know, solving the problem. 361 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:10,200 Good. 362 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,000 So it's a lot of wisdom. 363 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:14,960 We kind of have to pick up the hard way I know. 364 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:20,120 And, you know, and, but that empathetic listening is important. 365 00:23:20,120 --> 00:23:23,960 And again, here, I'm kind of relating back now to you guys as a person who's dealing 366 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:25,320 with chronic chronic illnesses. 367 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,440 I think about my own relationship with my wife. 368 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:32,840 And that's kind of maybe back to kind of what I was getting at having to, you know, we had 369 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:39,200 to learn kind of how I need to communicate with her and be heard. 370 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:43,200 And at the same time, I had to also learn that what she needed to do because it was 371 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,200 impacting her life as well. 372 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:46,680 It impacts everything. 373 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:51,600 I mean, I don't even have in my kind of list of questions here anything about the financial 374 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:58,560 aspects and, you know, just, I mean, this is something that is a bulldozer to your life. 375 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,240 And like you said earlier, Jeremy H, about the kind of the life you envision and dream 376 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,640 about and, you know, lost dreams that are there. 377 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,960 I think both of you have touched on that and this is not the, not the life I thought I'd 378 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,160 be living either, you know, by the way, this isn't the ministry I thought I'd be doing, 379 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:20,560 you know, and so it's, it's, it's a, it's a hard one to accept or embrace. 380 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,760 But I appreciate you guys sharing a little bit. 381 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,360 I want to stay on the marriage topic, particularly in your relationship with your wife. 382 00:24:28,360 --> 00:24:36,720 I think we're back, Jeremy W, for the start, answer about a significant challenge you face 383 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:37,720 in your marriage. 384 00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:43,760 You know, so I'm talking about just directly relationship between husband and wife and 385 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,640 then, but I want to know if there's something on the other side of that, is there's some 386 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,400 way that you've learned to grow as a couple? 387 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:58,320 Yeah, by God's grace, we've, we're just very similar and complementary. 388 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,920 We're very people, complimentary people. 389 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:06,560 So we've, we've just really had a happy, happy marriage and, and we've been talking just 390 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:14,240 in recent weeks of, and the, the joy that's ours by God's kindness in the midst of this, 391 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:20,880 even while, you know, so many unanswered questions and things I still don't understand 392 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,600 and how to take good care of her well. 393 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:28,720 I'll mention when I was sharing with someone today, you know, our girl's birthday, their 394 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,560 six birthdays coming up at the end of this month and I need to make the cupcakes for 395 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:36,960 their birthday party because I don't want her to think through that and have to worry 396 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,280 about that and do that kind of thing. 397 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:44,480 And so we made some practice cupcakes last night and there's a reality there in which 398 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,760 she really wants to be doing that. 399 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:52,560 And I want to take that off of her in a sense where she doesn't feel like she has to, that 400 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,800 the family's cared for and loved, but it's really hard. 401 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,960 The difficult thing is escaping that tension of her feeling the, the guilt, you know, of 402 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,920 not being able to do what she wants to do while her trusting me that I really do want 403 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:07,920 to do this, right? 404 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,040 I'm, I'm joyfully here. 405 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:16,320 One of the things that, that I caught pretty early on in starting to listen to other folks 406 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:22,920 who, who have been wrestling with this for longer jumped in a non-Christian Facebook support 407 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:28,760 group and just saw the despair and difficulty and so many people who would say, I can't 408 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,360 believe that people are still putting up with me. 409 00:26:31,360 --> 00:26:32,880 I'm so heavy on them. 410 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,760 I'm such a burden. 411 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,760 It's heartbreaking. 412 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,440 And I just, I thought, okay, I never want her to feel that. 413 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,940 Let me do everything I can. 414 00:26:43,940 --> 00:26:47,520 But the complexities of, you know, it's, it's inescapable, right? 415 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:53,320 I do a lot to make up for the, her, her abilities. 416 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,400 And so how we wrestle through that tension and how we live in that. 417 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:05,160 And so as I, I saw that question, I just wrote significant challenge like Monday, Tuesday, 418 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:06,160 right? 419 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:14,880 And I stay right every, every day is its own fresh set of, you know, of challenges and 420 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:15,880 intentions, but. 421 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:16,880 It's, it's, it's, it's with Y, huh? 422 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:17,880 Yeah, exactly. 423 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:22,880 Man, that's, that's, that's heavy though. 424 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:27,480 That, that feeling that sometimes you feel when you're the person suffering, you're 425 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,920 burdening others and you guys are, you guys are good husbands to your wives going through 426 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:38,840 this, I don't know that I deal with a, a lot of, a lot of people who have been, even 427 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,800 been abandoned by their spouse because of chronic illness. 428 00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:45,680 The one time when they needed their spouses hand by them, so the opposite of what you 429 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:50,120 guys are doing, trying to alleviate the burden and want them to know you're not a burden. 430 00:27:50,120 --> 00:27:51,960 You know, you're my wife. 431 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:58,640 And as a powerful testimony to the love of Christ, Jeremy H, you have any thing you'd 432 00:27:58,640 --> 00:27:59,640 like to add? 433 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:00,640 Yeah. 434 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:06,360 I appreciate those thoughts to Jeremy W. You know, we made promises in our wedding ceremony, 435 00:28:06,360 --> 00:28:07,360 right? 436 00:28:07,360 --> 00:28:12,680 And take us in health and we don't get to choose what's coming in the future. 437 00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,800 I made those promises to my wife 20 years ago and she didn't choose this pain, but I 438 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,480 still choose her and I choose her today. 439 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,360 I'll choose her tomorrow and every tomorrow that I'm given. 440 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:29,600 We'd love the pain to go away and be taken and thrown into the abyss away from her, but 441 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,800 that has not yet happened. 442 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:41,000 And when a marriage has any kind of conflict, couples have a decision to turn away or turn 443 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,400 toward each other. 444 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:49,120 And if there's any, you know, positive thing about this pain that Holly has carried so 445 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:55,520 long is that we have chosen to turn toward each other and face it together and hold it 446 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,840 together and grieve it together and cry about it together. 447 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:05,960 You know, I will not turn away or un-choose her. 448 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:13,080 And so whether it's this issue or another issue, you know, with Christ as a center, 449 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,200 when you turn together toward each other and he's in the middle, you find your help there. 450 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:24,480 It doesn't make it necessarily easier as far as what she's feeling, but it gives a layer 451 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,440 of commitment and loyalty. 452 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,520 You know, because like you said, people have been abandoned and left. 453 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,720 I didn't sign up for this, so I'm out, you know. 454 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,680 But in fact, we did sign up for it for either sickness or health. 455 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:45,280 And so it can be for some a test of devotion and faithfulness to that marriage vow. 456 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,440 Because when you're standing on a stage in your early 20s, you know, you think, yeah, 457 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:57,480 we got the rest of our lives together to grow and be healthy, you know, and we've had to, 458 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:04,880 you know, consider, you know, housing floor plans that would allow for a wheelchair. 459 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,760 And here we are, you know, we're not there yet, but we know that, okay, this may be in 460 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:11,920 the future, you know, at a certain point. 461 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:16,880 So anyway, turning toward each other with Christ in the middle is where you find the 462 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:23,360 help and at least the ability to come together and walk the path and it's all there to get 463 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,360 the love you share. 464 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:27,360 Yeah. 465 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,280 And we may have already spoken to this next question. 466 00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:35,920 And so, but if you want to add anything, we'll give you an opportunity because we've talked, 467 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,480 I think naturally on and off throughout this conversation about how it's impacted a relationship 468 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,200 with God individually. 469 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:48,680 And as a couple, there's two kind of two different ways to think about that question. 470 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:55,360 And you know, before I kind of hand that back over to you, Jeremy H, I, you know, I just 471 00:30:55,360 --> 00:31:00,240 want to say that based on what you said earlier about sometimes the struggle is real. 472 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,600 I mean, it's, it's raw, you know, and you're in the midst of it. 473 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:08,800 And it's not like we're sitting here talking from a standpoint of resolution, you know, 474 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:13,320 we, we're all okay with this, you know, spiritually now and everything. 475 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,520 And I think that's going to be make it more relatable to honestly to those who are listening 476 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:21,200 because man, that's, that's, people are all over, all over the place on this, you know, 477 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:27,320 and so, but let me just, let me just let you open up on it for a minute and speak about 478 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:31,520 how this has impacted your walk with God in a new way, either as you reflect on it individually 479 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:32,520 or as a couple. 480 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:34,000 Yeah, good question, David. 481 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:35,000 Thank you. 482 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:42,320 Yeah, certainly it's been a matter of a faith and doubt and, you know, why her as a father 483 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:48,080 of three kids, if one of my kids were hurting and I could fix that with a thought or an 484 00:31:48,080 --> 00:31:49,960 action, why would I not do that? 485 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:56,240 If one of my children has something that I could alleviate, I would, I would rush, I 486 00:31:56,240 --> 00:32:00,120 would do everything I could to, to rectify that situation. 487 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:06,720 And so it, the frustration of how long, oh Lord, will we pound up on your door and why 488 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:10,000 would you not want to take this pain away from your daughter? 489 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,320 Why would you not want to alleviate this, this burden she carries, you know, minute 490 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,880 by minute, day by day. 491 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:26,040 And so that can lead to frustration, anger, despair on the part of, you know, praying 492 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:31,160 the same prayer over and over, you know, having the same request, you know, and I know Luke 493 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:35,880 18 and the widow who continued to go to the King and I prayed through that parable with 494 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,160 the holiday who had done that. 495 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:46,760 And so it is a challenge as, you know, kind of watching and being a companion to this 496 00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,920 suffering that I know God has the power to heal, right? 497 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,120 We know he can still do these things. 498 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,840 So just the wondering, you know, why not Lord? 499 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:03,000 And that's a real point of tension for me as I relate to God and praying for her. 500 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:09,280 And as I said, we kind of eventually reach a point of, well, I guess you're not doing 501 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,520 this for us. 502 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,520 I guess we're just going to live with this. 503 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,560 That what the plan is, I guess this is where we are because we've, how long, you know, 504 00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,320 is this a test of our faithfulness and prayer? 505 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,720 Do we keep praying for two more decades about this and maybe when she's in her sixties, she'll 506 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:24,720 be pain free. 507 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:25,720 I don't know. 508 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:31,360 Maybe that's in the cars, but that's just that's a lot to carry for her and for us together. 509 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:32,360 So 510 00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:37,440 I think that anything you'd want to add, Jeremy W. 511 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:38,440 Yeah, similar. 512 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:46,040 Yeah, I feel like it's driven our practice and our theology to their natural ends in 513 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:54,080 a sense of, you know, with this starting at the end of 2019, the first kind of COVID lockdown 514 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:55,080 period. 515 00:33:55,080 --> 00:34:01,920 And then, you know, all the uncertainty as that started unfolding at the first part of 516 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:02,920 that year. 517 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:08,560 I can remember days where she's just in bed, can't get up, can't move. 518 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,640 And I would consistently say, maybe this isn't normal, right? 519 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,440 This is not, this is not how this is going to be forever. 520 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,480 We need to know that everything around us is really abnormal right now. 521 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:22,600 And in that moment, we would, we cling to resurrection hope, right? 522 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:24,000 We have new creation hope. 523 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:25,160 All things are going to be made new. 524 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,720 This is not my forever. 525 00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:31,720 And yet we're facing it with the hope of like, okay, but, but Lord, in light of that, would 526 00:34:31,720 --> 00:34:34,800 you make me, would you, would you bring that hope to today? 527 00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:35,800 Like right now? 528 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:42,640 Like I know that in the end things are going to be great, but also I'm 36 and I would really, 529 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:48,000 you know, like to, to live in that hope as we wait for that day. 530 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,680 And so, you know, people will do kind of a word of the year thing. 531 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,320 We've had, we've had words of survival, right? 532 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,120 Hope and rejoicing. 533 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:02,760 So we know that we have this confident expectation of joy and we know that that hope is fixed. 534 00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:03,960 We know that it's immovable. 535 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,680 We know that it's ours in adoption in Jesus Christ. 536 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,280 And yet we really need that hope to invade right now, right? 537 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,400 And so for that reason, we're rejoicing. 538 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:21,400 And I mean, I think one good evidence of God's grace in the midst of this is it's, it's robbed 539 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:29,080 us of false senses of security and caused us to be really grateful for all of the things 540 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,400 we do have, not just spiritual realities, but children home. 541 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:39,240 Like it's, it's, it's increased our gratitude for things as we realize, hey, I don't, I 542 00:35:39,240 --> 00:35:40,400 don't deserve this. 543 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:41,600 I didn't earn this. 544 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:45,760 I am given all of this by grace. 545 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,600 And so, and that's a, that's a, that joy or as a fruit of the spirit, right? 546 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:50,680 That rejoicing. 547 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,560 And so we've tried to drill down into those two things. 548 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,200 Give me confident hope. 549 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,600 And as you do, cause me to, to live in joy, right? 550 00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:05,680 Even in the midst of right now, God's been kind to do that. 551 00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:11,960 Cause I listened to both of you guys talk, one thought that occurs to me is that it may 552 00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:13,160 be in some ways. 553 00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,640 I mean, I understand the one that's going through it, the one that's doing the most 554 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:23,040 suffering, certainly physically, you know, but it's harder. 555 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,080 Well, I got, I can relate to this this way. 556 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:26,080 Okay. 557 00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,760 My son now has a chronic illness and Jeremy knows in my, you know, he's 16 for managing 558 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,760 pretty well. 559 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:33,760 Last year was tough. 560 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,600 This year has been better. 561 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,480 I could tell you that it was more difficult for me to see him go through that than it 562 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:45,040 was for me to try and push through what I was going through at any time during the last 563 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:48,680 11, 12 years that I've been dealing with this, you know? 564 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:53,960 And so it's because you want to, you guys have got alluded to it. 565 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,880 You know, you want to take it, at least be able to share it with him somehow. 566 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,400 So, you know, so such a chronic illness is one of the most humbling experiences that 567 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,160 you know, anybody can go through and vote for everybody. 568 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,160 Yeah. 569 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:13,840 There was one night, David, I laid hands on Holly and asked God to transfer her pain 570 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:14,840 to me. 571 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:16,200 I just wanted to take it. 572 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:22,120 I want to take some, all of it, like give this to me because you just, you want to rescue 573 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:23,120 and help so bad. 574 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,080 And when you've done everything that you can do and seeing all the doctors and your back 575 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:33,400 where you started, maybe even worse, you just, I mean, you want to help because you love 576 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,400 this person and you're watching them live this life that can't get above second, third 577 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:40,600 gear. 578 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,120 And that prayer was not answered. 579 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,000 I didn't get that pain, obviously, but I would take it in a heartbeat, you know, if 580 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,200 it meant she didn't have it. 581 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:52,160 I think any, you know, I'm sure Jeremy W, the same thing, any loving spouse would want 582 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,440 to share that burden if not take it on completely to say, you know what, let's carry this together. 583 00:37:56,440 --> 00:38:03,240 But I can't carry the physical pain, you know, but I can carry you and help carry our family 584 00:38:03,240 --> 00:38:05,600 in the ways I can. 585 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:06,800 And I'm not some here. 586 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:10,560 I'm just some guy like I feel very, very blessed to be Holly's husband. 587 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,680 I feel very fortunate that she said yes to me and that we still get to live these 20 plus 588 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:16,680 years together. 589 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:23,800 But yeah, it's, it's, it is the hardest thing about our lives is her pain. 590 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:30,840 Yeah, I, this is on a lot of no, but I did catch the, I don't know if it was intense 591 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,120 or not, but you made a subtle board of the rings reference. 592 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:45,280 You know, I can't, I can't carry it for you, but I can carry you. 593 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:46,280 Sure. 594 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:52,440 It's just, it's just a massive punch. 595 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,360 I can't call this an opportunity to point that out. 596 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:56,880 So, but that's gotta be right. 597 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:57,880 It's gotta be right. 598 00:38:57,880 --> 00:38:58,880 If that's the case then. 599 00:38:58,880 --> 00:38:59,880 Yeah, absolutely. 600 00:38:59,880 --> 00:39:00,880 Absolutely. 601 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,880 Well, it's a question of ones I kind of wrote out ahead of time. 602 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,080 I really was interested in what you guys would say about this. 603 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:14,000 So if you were advising a couple who just, I just had received diagnosis and let me even 604 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,400 rephrase that since we just learned earlier, Jim, you don't, you guys only have a diagnosis. 605 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:25,800 So let's just say you're advising a couple that has gone through something similar that 606 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:29,160 you've been through, you know, you're several years ahead of them, in other words, and they're 607 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:34,040 just finding out they're having to deal with this and there may not be a quick resolution. 608 00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,400 Is there any advice that you would offer them that you wish you would have known? 609 00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:39,680 And we'll start with Jeremy W. 610 00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,840 Yeah, I can remember summer of 2021. 611 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,040 So that's a year and a half in. 612 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,960 I think I gained a reputation at the YMCA as the weeping pastor. 613 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:58,160 I would take my boys up and let them swim and I would sit poolside and read Esther Smith 614 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:07,480 and K.J. Ramsey and David Paulson and I would go, oh man, they've been where we're at. 615 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:12,200 And we were a year and a half in and hadn't made that connection with real people in our 616 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,280 life yet. 617 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:21,400 And so finding the tribe, finding the resources, finding broken and mended, finding Christian 618 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:27,200 trauma counseling network, finding some of those support groups and things like that 619 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:34,160 that are out there were just it was tremendous for us. 620 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:39,760 Friends locally that we connected with and just sitting down. 621 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,800 We've again got a great network, we've got other pastors in the area that love us. 622 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:50,080 But if you haven't, you know, if you haven't had a taste of it, right, you don't, it's 623 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,680 hard to, it's hard to understand. 624 00:40:52,680 --> 00:41:01,120 And so looking for support among the empathetic, right, the folks who have been there finding 625 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:02,120 that. 626 00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:07,600 So while you're, we needed early on to be more patient with the people in our circle who 627 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,680 didn't understand and who didn't get it. 628 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:14,640 I feel like for the first year and a half we were in the dark that there was a community 629 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:15,640 out there. 630 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:16,640 Right. 631 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:22,520 So looking for that community online locally and trying to plug into it. 632 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,920 And Jeremy H, we know that you, you've got an appointment to get it too, but let me let 633 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:28,720 you have last word on that. 634 00:41:28,720 --> 00:41:33,320 And Jeremy W and I will land the plane after when you have to depart. 635 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,320 But yeah. 636 00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:35,800 Well, I love that bit about community. 637 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:41,160 It's so key to have people with whom to share the journey, solidarity, unity, understanding, 638 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:42,160 et cetera. 639 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:49,560 I had a couple things to that, to find something to be grateful for in each day, to cultivate 640 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:54,920 that, that gratitude can, can help that joy stay afloat. 641 00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:00,600 I think as joy can get drowned and get submerged and hope can get kind of bowled over by the 642 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,640 tidal wave of pain. 643 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,840 So finding little things sold onto each day to give thanks for. 644 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:13,200 And then as far as the advice along with that, for the one who has the illness or the pain 645 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:18,600 that I notice is find things that energize their spirit every day. 646 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:25,880 Find ways or activities or places or music or sites or sounds or something that gives 647 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:30,240 their soul some energy because they are, they're dog paddling inside. 648 00:42:30,240 --> 00:42:35,320 I mean, the physical struggle is one thing, but within that is the mental, emotional, 649 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,160 spiritual battle they're facing as well. 650 00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:44,040 Well, Jeremy, that leaves us kind of, you know, bring us to a close and we're, we're 651 00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:45,400 kind of coming to that point. 652 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:49,680 I appreciate being able to stay just a few extra minutes here. 653 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:50,680 Absolutely. 654 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:56,880 I want to ask, you kind of hit on this a little bit and why you answered that question, but 655 00:42:56,880 --> 00:43:02,640 what you wish existed or was more widely available to support not only those with chronic illness, 656 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,120 but also loved ones with chronic illness. 657 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:09,160 Is there anything in your journey that you, I mean, you've been able to find some community 658 00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:10,160 that's good. 659 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,640 I remember early on when I was going through, I wasn't able to for a while, you know, as 660 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:18,240 part of the reason why I created broken amended because you didn't feel like there was a whole 661 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:22,760 lot out out there that was actually doing support groups, you know, I mean, there was some written 662 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,160 materials and that kind of stuff. 663 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:30,480 But what does some wish existed or you discovered earlier on or something like, you know, something 664 00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:31,480 like that? 665 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:36,200 Yeah, that's kind of the challenge too is, is the easy answer is support and support 666 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,320 groups and folks who are minded to kind of walk alongside. 667 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:45,080 The challenge of that is, I mean, I think about someone like Jeremy and getting to know 668 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:48,960 his story and hearing that, man, I've been so encouraged in the last few minutes and 669 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:51,520 like, oh man, I want to regularly keep up. 670 00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:52,520 Okay, great. 671 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,200 I've got zero margin in my life. 672 00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:01,640 And so the caretakers that we want to put in those positions to, you know, lead support 673 00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:06,600 groups and care for folks are relatively maximized, right? 674 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,200 And their capabilities. 675 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:14,040 So somebody smarter than me needs to come up with a good strategy for putting that out 676 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:15,040 there. 677 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:20,420 And the flip side of that too is with not just inability for folks to be able to get 678 00:44:20,420 --> 00:44:24,000 out or meet, but kind of like broken and mended does like, here's an online option. 679 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,000 Here's a zoom. 680 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,120 Here's a, here's a time when it might be convenient. 681 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:33,280 Here's a morning or evening and, you know, finding a flexible option for people that 682 00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:34,520 some of whom can work. 683 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:35,520 Some can't. 684 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:37,760 And some have kids in school. 685 00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:41,480 Our most free time is eight to three every day where we can kind of get the most done 686 00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,760 because three of our four are in school. 687 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,960 And that's usually when other people are less available, right? 688 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,960 Right. 689 00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:53,240 And so just the unique dynamic of this kind of situation of life says, man, we, we all 690 00:44:53,240 --> 00:44:59,520 need a support network, but it's difficult to be involved in one because we're all very 691 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:01,840 busy just making these ends meet. 692 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,240 Yeah, that is a, and that's a challenge that I wouldn't fully prepare for when I got into 693 00:45:07,240 --> 00:45:11,000 trying to find people to lead broken and mended support groups. 694 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:15,920 Because obviously I wanted people that could empathize, you know, because they, they had 695 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:20,720 experience with it and knew the need for that kind of community, but finding people that 696 00:45:20,720 --> 00:45:26,280 had enough energy and health to be able to carry that forward as, you know, has been 697 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,000 a challenge. 698 00:45:28,000 --> 00:45:33,920 Also the timing of, you talked about where, you know, I've, we did something too late. 699 00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:38,040 We could lose a lot of people that, you know, would be, they hurt a lot more at night, you 700 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:39,040 know, isn't too early. 701 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:43,240 Well, then you lose your crowd that still, still is going to work or school and that 702 00:45:43,240 --> 00:45:45,240 kind of stuff. 703 00:45:45,240 --> 00:45:48,360 We are slowly working around to solutions to that. 704 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,920 Like tonight we're starting a new support group. 705 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,640 It's actually kind of in mind for some people out on the West Coast. 706 00:45:55,640 --> 00:46:02,160 We actually have someone from Tennessee, but we're starting at 630 Pacific time in order 707 00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,480 because they said, Hey, you guys are meeting much too early for us. 708 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:06,480 We're still at work. 709 00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:10,880 And so we started a group just for those guys in mind and trying to build around that. 710 00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:14,760 So as we kind of figure out what those particulars are, I think we're trying to build around 711 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:20,920 that, you know, as we, as we learn, but I'm in the same boat with the resources and kind 712 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:26,760 of margin and, you know, how do I, you know, just kind of think it out loud about this 713 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:33,200 now that, you know, how do I kind of get some help doing, you know, doing that, you know, 714 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:37,400 and I'm, that's things we're wrestling with and we've raised enough money to hire some 715 00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:38,560 help and that kind of stuff. 716 00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:41,000 But I'm getting ahead of myself a little bit. 717 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:45,720 My point is that's a challenge for all of us that where's the margin to invest in what's 718 00:46:45,720 --> 00:46:51,120 important and invest in what we really want to do and see happen. 719 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:56,240 So hopefully over time, God will give us wisdom in that as we continue to grow and learn. 720 00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:01,200 I think particularly about broken and men, but it can apply in any sort of industry that's 721 00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:05,560 trying to reach out and connect and support people that are going through this. 722 00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:11,040 I think I know for me, I appreciate anyone that's trying to reach out and do something 723 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,680 positive for that community. 724 00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,680 You mentioned Esther Smith. 725 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,520 Most people in this ministry are very familiar with her and some of the books that she's 726 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,680 done and the ministry she has. 727 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,880 I was wondering, you mentioned a couple of other authors too, which I wasn't as familiar 728 00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:25,880 with. 729 00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,360 Do you remember what you said? 730 00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:32,440 Yeah, KJ Ramsey and I'm the name of the book is escaping me now. 731 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,480 Oh, mercy. 732 00:47:34,480 --> 00:47:41,400 It was in that season and I'm not going to remember it, so I shouldn't try any more. 733 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:45,960 But the other one was, I'm probably botching the name on this, I believe it's Christian 734 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:52,240 trauma counseling, which I think is maybe that Esther Smith's a part of, but they're 735 00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:59,720 hosting an online support group on Fridays and Kate Brooks has been leading that. 736 00:47:59,720 --> 00:48:06,920 She and her wife Nate is soon to be, I think this is public counseling professor at Southeastern 737 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,480 Seminary as they transition from reformed. 738 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:16,400 And there's just been a tremendous community for Alicia, I think for the last six or seven 739 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:17,760 months, she's been a part of that. 740 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:18,920 And same kind of thing. 741 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,080 So they're meeting on a Friday at one o'clock. 742 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:22,080 Yeah. 743 00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,080 Whoever can make it can make it. 744 00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:28,200 But I think that's somewhere between eight and 10 folks who have jumped into that and 745 00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,640 just been able to form some good friendship. 746 00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,560 So yeah, finding that was really helpful. 747 00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:40,320 There's a ton of other resources out there that have been really helpful that of course 748 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:46,400 I'll blank on right now, but Esther's the first one we found. 749 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:47,400 Yeah. 750 00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,720 Yeah, I know she's been tremendously helpful to me and I know a ton of other people who 751 00:48:52,720 --> 00:48:53,720 have this struggle. 752 00:48:53,720 --> 00:48:56,640 Of course, she herself has the struggle of chronic illness. 753 00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:03,080 So thankfully she is able to continue and do the things that she does despite that and 754 00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,080 be a blessing to people. 755 00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:11,720 Well, Jeremy, coming up on about 50 minutes and I need to bring it to a close here pretty 756 00:49:11,720 --> 00:49:15,280 soon, but is there anything else you'd want to add that we didn't cover? 757 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:16,880 No, you nailed it. 758 00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,880 I was setting you up with that last one for the softball on that new group that you started 759 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,400 for the earlier time. 760 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:24,200 So you hit it out of the park. 761 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:25,200 Yeah. 762 00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:26,200 Well, thank you. 763 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:27,200 I appreciate you. 764 00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,800 I appreciate you being with us and my thanks to both of you. 765 00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:36,720 I'm seeing maybe Jeremy H will listen to this playback at some point with maybe with Holly 766 00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:40,960 and others and they're great both both of you being with me and I think this will be 767 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,000 a blessing to others as they listen to it. 768 00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:49,440 And I think all our listeners on in the seams and I hope that this has been a blessing to 769 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:53,360 you and look forward to being back with you the next time. 770 00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:58,960 And so I'll give a shout out to John Shields, who is the editor of this episode. 771 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:26,720 So, we appreciate the work he's doing.