1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Welcome to In The Seams, a podcast by Broken and Mended with your host, David Heffler. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:23,520 Well, welcome everyone back to In The Seams. 3 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,520 I've been away for a little while, had a hip surgery a little over a month ago. 4 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:30,000 For the most part, that's gone real well. 5 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,880 I appreciate any of you out there that knew about that and were praying for my recovery. 6 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:40,720 I certainly would love to pray for anyone that I can and would continue to cover your 7 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,200 prayers. 8 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:48,560 I'm glad though to kind of get back into In The Seams and I wanted to especially before 9 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:49,560 Thanksgiving. 10 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:55,480 I've just been thinking a lot about Thanksgiving and how that, how our view of that can be 11 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:59,040 impacted by chronic pain and chronic illness and what it might look like for us to still 12 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,960 be thankful even in the midst of pain. 13 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,280 I've got a guest with us here today. 14 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:13,160 I'm excited to have Timothy Gunnels and I'll call him Tim during our conversation. 15 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:18,760 Tim and I have kind of got acquainted over social media and then have had opportunity 16 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,760 to interact outside of that forum. 17 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:29,080 We have some similar stories, we're both in ministry and both dealing with chronic pain 18 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,680 and chronic illness. 19 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:32,680 Tim, I'm glad to have you. 20 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:38,080 I wanted to say too that one of the goals I've had is I noticed for my first four, five, 21 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,440 six guests, whatever it was I had on this podcast, they were all women. 22 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:46,160 It is easier to get women to talk about these issues and I think it would be really healthy 23 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,120 for men to be able to speak to these issues too. 24 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:53,160 I think a lot of times there's this attitude of, oh, if you're a man, you're not going 25 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,160 to talk about your pain, you're not going to talk about your pain. 26 00:01:54,160 --> 00:01:58,080 I'm going to tell you, well, there's a lot of people that need to talk about that. 27 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:04,480 So really glad to have you and you are a, I don't have all your biographical information 28 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:10,640 down in terms of, I know you said you're teaching at Ambridge University and you're also in ministry. 29 00:02:10,640 --> 00:02:13,200 Are you preaching regularly Tim or what is your ministry like? 30 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:20,680 I am not preaching regularly right now, but I'm actually looking into getting back into 31 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:25,600 that because I can teach and preach at the same time. 32 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:31,920 Right now I'm an associate professor of Bible leadership and ministry at Ambridge University. 33 00:02:31,920 --> 00:02:35,240 Teach undergrad through doctoral programs and I love it. 34 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:36,240 I enjoy that. 35 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:43,160 I work with a lot of folks in ministry and been doing a lot of church coaching and coaching 36 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:48,880 and consulting the last several years and I got out of the preaching side because I was 37 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:50,880 taking care of my parents full time. 38 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,520 My mom has a frontal temporal dementia and they lived with us for about five and a half 39 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:02,920 years, but had to leave and move in with another sibling because of my health issues. 40 00:03:02,920 --> 00:03:08,680 So that definitely comes into play there, but I'm feeling better enough. 41 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:13,680 I'll get to that later that I feel like I can get back into the pulpit and do some more 42 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,520 work alongside my teaching. 43 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:17,520 That's good. 44 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:23,080 I'm glad that you are feeling like you've improved enough to consider that. 45 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:27,120 I know from our previous conversation, I know you'll get into it in a moment that you were 46 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:31,520 in a pretty debilitating state not that long ago. 47 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:37,880 That's the thing with our connection, both with the ministry but also with this chronic 48 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:43,160 illness and that's what has helped us to develop a relationship, which I'm very thankful for. 49 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:48,280 I'm wondering if you could, for our audience though, you could share a summary of what 50 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:56,040 you've been through and where you are today with that struggle and how you got there. 51 00:03:56,040 --> 00:04:02,920 I'll try to get quickly to the current main issue with psoriatic arthritis, but in my 52 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:09,080 20s, I had a lot of gastrointestinal issues, ended up having some surgery to take care 53 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:17,240 of just intense, you know, GERD, hernia situation and that would keep me up at night. 54 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:23,240 I went through a period where I was having intense back pain for like a year and a half 55 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:24,680 and I had night sweats. 56 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:27,200 This was all in my 20s. 57 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,600 They never could quite figure that out. 58 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:30,920 I think it was the beginning. 59 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:38,040 I think the back pain was actually the beginning of the arthritis and nobody really looked 60 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:39,200 into that. 61 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:46,960 They just assumed at my age, I probably injured my back, but I'd be going through doors and 62 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,240 it was just like I would just fold over. 63 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,760 I would just sort of crumble and so I went through that and I had knee issues and ankle 64 00:04:55,760 --> 00:05:00,880 issues and shoulder issues and they just always were sort of explained away in different 65 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:06,880 things and that went on for years and the gastrointestinal stuff kind of kept going. 66 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,000 I had my gallbladder out not long after that. 67 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:15,120 It was kind of in my late 30s. 68 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:26,480 I developed gastroparesis, which is a delayed stomach emptying, which keeps you, well, it 69 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,080 actually gives you some pretty good stomach pain. 70 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:31,080 You feel like you still have your gallbladder. 71 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,440 I had my gallbladder out because it hurt and I feel like you still had it, but I'd have 72 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:36,760 nausea and bloating. 73 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:44,560 I still have some of that, not nearly like I did thankfully, but all that was basically 74 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:47,520 – doctors would say, we got to get this under control. 75 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:50,440 Your problem has some other health issues. 76 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:59,080 I don't think that contributed to my intensification of my arthritis, but it certainly didn't 77 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,920 help or take away from it. 78 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:07,200 Anyway, I just fast forward a little bit. 79 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:12,000 Got out of full-time preaching to work with Amherst University full-time. 80 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:19,160 I was out in Arizona and my parents were in South Carolina pretty far apart geographically. 81 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:27,040 My mom, we knew she had symptoms of dementia, didn't know exactly what was going on, but 82 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:28,600 my dad has some health issues. 83 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,640 They're both in their – well, they were in their mid-70s then, but they're both 84 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,200 in their 80s now, early 80s, but he couldn't take care of her. 85 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:41,600 That was never his ability to do anything around the house. 86 00:06:41,600 --> 00:06:48,840 He was the outside the house guy and mom was getting lost driving, all kinds of stuff. 87 00:06:48,840 --> 00:06:53,920 We basically moved back partly because I really wanted to work with the university. 88 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,240 That was a good thing to do, and I love it. 89 00:06:57,240 --> 00:06:59,800 Also, I needed to be closer to my parents. 90 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:05,400 Then we came into understanding that they were going to have to be taken care of and 91 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:07,400 just family situations. 92 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,480 I'm the youngest. 93 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:18,080 Even though we have four kids, it was just better for my wife and I to take them in. 94 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:22,280 So we still had a house here in East Tennessee where I lived. 95 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:27,040 I was able to work remotely, still work remotely, thankfully. 96 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:30,240 Really thankful when the pandemic hit, and everybody was working remotely because I 97 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:31,240 was already doing that. 98 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:35,800 So that was a nice deal. 99 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,160 So we tried to – we were going to move them into the current house we had. 100 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:40,680 Couldn't do that, so we sold it. 101 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,040 Got another house, added onto it, kind of out in the country. 102 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:49,520 We moved my parents in, it was way more intense than we ever imagined. 103 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:55,040 My mom was much worse than we realized. 104 00:07:55,040 --> 00:08:02,200 Fronto Temple Dementia, she's had it well over 10 years, and you can live to 22 years 105 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,200 with it. 106 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,760 That's what they say, but it's not like Alzheimer's. 107 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:08,000 It's not just a memory thing. 108 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,040 It's a behavioral thing. 109 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:14,400 It's not ability to make any kind of decisions that make sense. 110 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:21,320 So it was just this constant stress, and my dad's health problems caused him to fall 111 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:23,600 pretty frequently. 112 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:28,040 And probably about three – I guess it was about three years into having them. 113 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,800 I started Guide Up. 114 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:36,520 I was already having trouble with my thumbs and wrist and pinky fingers, sort of that 115 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,600 thing that you think about. 116 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,120 Some toe issues, I had a doctor say, well, you probably just have gout, because my grandmother 117 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:43,120 had gout. 118 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,880 Maybe she probably had psoriatic arthritis. 119 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:53,920 But that was a long time ago when they didn't know what to diagnose or how to diagnose anything. 120 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:59,800 So you started having some problems, but then one morning I get up, and I really can't 121 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:00,800 get up. 122 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:04,760 I wake up, but I can't really get up. 123 00:09:04,760 --> 00:09:09,160 So it was all I could do to get out of bed. 124 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:14,960 Our bathroom and our master bedroom is probably six feet from the side of the bed that I sleep 125 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:15,960 on. 126 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:21,840 And I felt like I was in shackles or in walking in quicksand or something. 127 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,520 I mean, it was just – it was pretty scary to be honest with you. 128 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:26,520 Sure. 129 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,040 I'm like, what is going on? 130 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:36,360 So I knew at that point, I thought, well, maybe this will go away tomorrow, but it didn't. 131 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:37,360 It just intensified. 132 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:42,760 So I got ahold of my general practitioner who I knew very well or I know very well, and 133 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,200 I said, hey, I'm having some issues. 134 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:46,960 So they got me squeezed in, got in. 135 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:53,560 Of course, the first thing to do is put you on steroids, which helped with the stiffness, 136 00:09:53,560 --> 00:09:56,280 but it didn't do much else. 137 00:09:56,280 --> 00:10:01,560 So then they put me on hydroxychloroquine, and then – oh, you got to go to a rheumatologist. 138 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:06,400 It took eight and a half months to get into a rheumatologist. 139 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:12,080 Well, anybody that deals with arthritis, autoimmune disease, know the quicker you can get into 140 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:13,080 the specialist, the better. 141 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,120 And so I was delayed in that. 142 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,120 I just continued to get worse. 143 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:24,200 And when I finally got the diagnosis, and part of it was because my brother also has 144 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:31,520 a sore arthritis, he doesn't – it's not as intense for him, but I'm not going to 145 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,000 minimize his struggle with it. 146 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:43,760 But I basically got to where I was just sitting on the couch, slumped over. 147 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:48,200 The fatigue just got so intense, I couldn't drive. 148 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:53,840 I couldn't pick up my – she's seven now, but my five-year-old daughter, she could climb 149 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:55,520 in my lap. 150 00:10:55,520 --> 00:11:02,440 I was bracing everything I could put on, back braces, shoulder braces. 151 00:11:02,440 --> 00:11:05,000 I had compression sleeves on everything. 152 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,840 I've got two drawers full of braces and compression sleeves. 153 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:16,960 I had to keep going bigger and stronger on the knee braces, to the point I got those – what 154 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:24,200 I call the offensive linemen knee braces, just so I could get around the house, just 155 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,080 so I could make it through the day. 156 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:27,080 Wow. 157 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:31,280 You know, my wife would say, you know, are you dying? 158 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:33,560 I mean, she was serious about it. 159 00:11:33,560 --> 00:11:36,080 I said, I feel like I'm dying. 160 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:40,680 I said, the truth is, I feel like I'm dying, but I can't die. 161 00:11:40,680 --> 00:11:41,680 That makes any sense. 162 00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:44,040 I think it makes sense for the people who go through chronic pain. 163 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:45,040 It's like – 164 00:11:45,040 --> 00:11:46,040 Exactly. 165 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:49,000 Maybe I want to, but the truth is, I don't want to. 166 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:50,240 I want to get better. 167 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,000 I want to be able to be involved with my family. 168 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,240 So I got so bad. 169 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:01,720 One of my siblings, who's older than me and his wife's a nurse, she said, I'm going 170 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,680 to retire from what I'm doing in nursing. 171 00:12:04,680 --> 00:12:07,280 We don't have anybody home anymore. 172 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:08,840 We're going to bring them into our house. 173 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:13,880 And so they moved to another part of Tennessee, which is a blessing. 174 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:21,080 And because stress is so much a part of chronic pain and can cause flares, and basically people 175 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,120 say, well, how often do you have flares? 176 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:29,520 Well, the truth was, I was in a flare, an intense flare for over two years. 177 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:35,840 There was no – I had no relief at all, and it just got worse and worse. 178 00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:37,760 So I gained weight. 179 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,440 The doctor said, don't even try to exercise. 180 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:41,440 I tried to do things. 181 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,720 They'd say, well, try swimming. 182 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:47,080 You know, you use your wrist, you use your ankle. 183 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,520 I mean, there's not much – so it was like I tried everything I could think of that you 184 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:51,520 could exercise. 185 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,760 So develop diabetes, too. 186 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:57,360 You know, just sort of piles on. 187 00:12:57,360 --> 00:13:00,840 But my parents, you know, they left. 188 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:07,200 It did take a lot of stress off, but the pain, the sickness, it didn't go away. 189 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:08,200 It was here. 190 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:12,120 It's here to stay. 191 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:13,120 So fast forward. 192 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:14,120 I don't know. 193 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:18,200 I got to medicine number nine. 194 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,120 And I do a weekly shot of enrol now, and I do think enrol is helping. 195 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:27,920 It's the only one that really has ever helped. 196 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:37,440 And I went from pain levels of seven to nine to sometimes what I thought was 12, you know, 197 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,280 just to where I'm at. 198 00:13:39,280 --> 00:13:44,120 You know, my worst is more like a five now, and that's like the most intense. 199 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:45,120 And so I'll take that. 200 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,120 Oh, yeah. 201 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:51,640 To be honest with you, I mean, most days I'm at probably a two. 202 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:59,120 But I went from over 30 joints involved, plus my spine, just hurting all the time and just 203 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:06,200 intense to most of the time now I'm at five or six joints that are hurting. 204 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:10,160 It's hurting today pretty good weather. 205 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:12,160 You know, it's it's in the 30s here. 206 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:14,080 You know, it's a little humid. 207 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,160 We've had some some moisture, so we won't get into all that. 208 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:24,200 But you know, but I did, I had the chance to go to Mexico to do some umbilical cords, 209 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:32,960 stem cell therapy, specifically targeted toward my knees and my hips and my shoulders. 210 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:39,400 So I did some IV therapy to help overall, but my knees, my shoulders, my hips are far 211 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:41,160 better because of that. 212 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:42,520 I'm thankful for it. 213 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:47,200 I have regained between the medicine between lots of prayers. 214 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:51,520 I believe God's involved more than anything, the stem cell treatments. 215 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,640 I'm able to function again. 216 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,800 I'm not always in pain. 217 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,200 I have some bad nights. 218 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,440 I have some bad days, but it's not 24 hours a day. 219 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,520 And so I'm very thankful for where I am at this point. 220 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,720 But my primary diagnosis is psoriatic arthritis and then kind of all the stuff that you can 221 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,720 have with psoriatic arthritis, all the complications I get to get, get to have that too, including 222 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:18,560 the spinal spondylitis is really what I what I have with that. 223 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,720 So your story touches on so many different themes that I think our listeners be able 224 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:28,320 to relate to in various different ways from everything from the struggle to find diagnosis 225 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:34,880 to having to deal with what's the more urgent health need, but ignoring some other things 226 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,000 that are troubling in the background. 227 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:41,880 But then the need to be able to take care of aging parents while your own medical conditioning 228 00:15:41,880 --> 00:15:42,880 is getting worse. 229 00:15:42,880 --> 00:15:48,280 And flip side of that, wanting to be able to hold and play with your own kids. 230 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:52,760 I mean, I think these are, and then of course, the various medicines and treatments to try 231 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:53,880 to find what works. 232 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,760 And these, these are things that a lot of people, probably most people are listening 233 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,120 to this can can relate to at different stages in their own, their own journey. 234 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:07,920 And so I appreciate you sharing that I you mentioned God, of course, and I know you're 235 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:09,600 a strong believer. 236 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,920 And that's been a big part of what your life is about. 237 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:21,480 And I wanted to ask you then how this, this struggle, including the when you were at the 238 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:27,680 bottom into where you're now at least functional, you know, how has that impacted your relationship 239 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:28,680 with God? 240 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:33,080 And have you learned anything in regards to your relationship with God or about God himself 241 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,000 during this time? 242 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:44,480 Well, I never doubted that God cared that I hurt. 243 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,920 I'm keenly aware of pain and struggle and trial. 244 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:56,320 I've been through other struggles and trials of depression, anxiety, burnout, you know, 245 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:01,040 different health issues. 246 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:13,560 Just from a one standpoint, my level of compassion toward other people has just intense, it means 247 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,440 just to increase so much. 248 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,880 I think that's made me a, I think that's. 249 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:26,800 I'll say this, I think it helps me in my living out the greatest commands to love my neighbor 250 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:27,800 as myself. 251 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,480 I think that that has been just very beneficial. 252 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,160 I've had some pretty dark moments. 253 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:38,760 I've never given up on God, never given up on my relationship with God, but I've just 254 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:44,880 sat outside on my front steps or I've been lying in my bed when I couldn't go to sleep. 255 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:50,640 And I've just said, you know, Lord have mercy on me, Lord have mercy on me. 256 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:52,960 Just have mercy on me. 257 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:54,080 Just let me go to sleep. 258 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:55,080 Yeah. 259 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:56,400 You know, just let me get some rest. 260 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,040 I'm not asking for healing tonight. 261 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,240 I'm not asking you to take this pain away. 262 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,920 I just want to get some sleep. 263 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:11,880 And probably one of the worst times I had, I had agreed to do a wedding. 264 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:22,040 But in a couple of states over, and it was probably, I'd agreed to do it and it was like 265 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:26,320 six weeks after I started having the problem of walking and just the intensification of 266 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:27,920 the pain. 267 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:32,760 And I was going to drive down myself and my wife, we had to make arrangements to have 268 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:39,000 somebody come watch our children, our younger children, because older children weren't able 269 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,000 to do it. 270 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:46,760 And my wife drove me down, rented a car and drove and I just, I basically turned away 271 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:53,720 from her and cried most of the time on the way down there and prayed. 272 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:54,720 And I prayed. 273 00:18:54,720 --> 00:19:00,200 And, but what's interesting about it, David is, and I teach spiritual disciplines, I think 274 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:08,160 you might get into that, but Bible reading and prayer, I just came to enjoy it more. 275 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:09,560 And I thought I couldn't enjoy it more. 276 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,120 I thought that it's not something I could enjoy any more than I did. 277 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:19,040 But sometimes I would read Psalms of Lament, but a lot of times on my worst days, I just 278 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:24,560 turned over to some of those Psalms of praise. 279 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,360 And I found myself praising God more. 280 00:19:29,360 --> 00:19:35,480 And probably one of the biggest things is the stripping away of anything that seems 281 00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:42,520 unnecessary or unneeded in my life. 282 00:19:42,520 --> 00:19:46,240 People ask me what I want for a birthday or Christmas and I literally couldn't think of 283 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,880 anything like I don't, I don't want anything. 284 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:50,960 I can't think of things I want. 285 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:51,960 Right. 286 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:59,400 The only thing that I would want would be things that might make life a little easier, 287 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,640 just things that might accommodate me a little bit more. 288 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:05,640 Or good coffee. 289 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,520 I love good coffee. 290 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:08,520 You know, like that. 291 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:14,560 But just the stripping away, just the constant conversation with God. 292 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,600 But it wasn't just about my pain and it's not just about my pain. 293 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:18,920 It was for other people. 294 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,120 You know, just I would read, you know, I hear somebody else struggling. 295 00:20:22,120 --> 00:20:26,560 I want to reach out to them and I did a lot more intercessory prayer. 296 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:31,760 It seems or I have, then it seems that I prayed for myself. 297 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:36,720 And I think that was, that's a beautiful part of this. 298 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,880 And I think you've got to find something to be thankful for and see that's beautiful. 299 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:43,520 But I don't know. 300 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,720 I just, I didn't see a need for much else, but just to live life, be in relationship 301 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:56,720 with God, care for my family, realizing my family was my primary ministry and understanding 302 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:00,400 that the pain I was going through was affecting them. 303 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,400 And so how could I manage that? 304 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:08,680 But all that tied into my relationship with God and trying to help people. 305 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:17,760 So, you know, I've been studying and actually preached recently on Jesus is teaching on 306 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:18,760 prayer. 307 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,800 And one of the things, especially in the sermon on the Mount, he's emphasizing is really 308 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:25,480 the character of the father throughout the whole thing. 309 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:31,560 And the reason why we don't have to pray like, you know, the pagans who, you know, babbling 310 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:39,760 on with some kind of cadence, not the word I'm looking for, like a spell or something, 311 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:44,800 you know, and incantation is the word I was trying to think of, you know, or of course, 312 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:50,840 like the some of the Jewish authorities, maybe some of the Pharisees and some others that 313 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,520 like to be seen when they were doing their, the religious things. 314 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:56,880 And Jesus, of course, says that, well, they got the reward. 315 00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:00,200 And that's what they were looking for us, what they got, you know. 316 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:05,480 But the idea that our father knows what we need before we even ask is just such a encouraging 317 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:06,480 thought. 318 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:12,280 And so when we say that, we have mercy on me that that is a prayer in its fullness, you 319 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:17,200 know, even though it's a one sentence prayer, you know, and, and I've taken to saying the 320 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:23,080 Lord's prayer, you know, growing up, we didn't do this in our, in our both in churches, 321 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:28,640 Christ, and, you know, we typically don't say, you know, set prayers in most church 322 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,360 Christ settings, but I, I've taken to saying the Lord's prayer daily. 323 00:22:32,360 --> 00:22:40,640 And one of the reasons I do that is because it decenters myself for the reign and will 324 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:41,640 of God. 325 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:45,680 And then even as we get to the part where we're praying for our daily bread, our forgiveness 326 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,360 of sins, you notice pronouns, of course, they're being plural, you know, that even then it's 327 00:22:49,360 --> 00:22:51,360 not just about me, it's about others. 328 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,680 So I really appreciated your emphasis there, how it's taught you to be empathetic or it's 329 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:00,040 giving you greater empathy as well, along with the idea of intercession, you know, that 330 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:04,680 you find yourself praying for others more, even in the midst of your own, your own pain. 331 00:23:04,680 --> 00:23:10,720 Yeah, I did want to talk about spiritual disciplines, we kind of halfway into it, you know, with 332 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:14,920 that, you know, but I know that that has been a particular emphasis for you and your teaching. 333 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:19,840 This is so something that you have focused on throughout your life. 334 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:25,200 And, you know, and I'm wondering, because you talked about this, we have a support group 335 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,800 that you were in, and shared your story with us there. 336 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,480 And we talked at some, we were talking that night, our topic was on spiritual disciplines 337 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,640 and how can those of us in chronic pain and chronic illness, practice them in a way that 338 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:39,520 is still helpful. 339 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:46,080 So not giving up on them, but also having, having a maybe a view of grace as we sometimes 340 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:49,080 struggle in our pain to, to practice those. 341 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,880 Yeah, I'd like to know maybe some of your insights with that and how it's impacted your 342 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,880 practice of spiritual disciplines. 343 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:04,680 Well, the primary spiritual disciplines that I teach and talk about, and I teach, talk 344 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,200 about a lot of them, but my dissertation, I focused on what I call the disciplines of 345 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:20,440 the greatest commands, and I chose solitude, hospitality, contemplative or meditative Bible 346 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,400 reading and prayer. 347 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:29,200 And those are all things that somebody in chronic pain can, can do. 348 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:37,640 The solitude part, I used to go places to do solitude, I had particular places to go. 349 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,600 I'm trying to get back into that, but when you can't drive, you can't even walk good 350 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:44,800 or something that's a little more difficult. 351 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:50,040 So what I ended up doing was really, I live on a couple of acres. 352 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:57,760 And so we've got deer and we've got trees around their house and I can see what's called 353 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,120 star mountain over here in East Tennessee from my front porch, just kind of the tip 354 00:25:03,120 --> 00:25:07,880 of it, see it better than the winter time when leaves are off the trees, but I would 355 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,240 just go sit on the porch or I'd go sit in the chair in the back. 356 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:16,280 And even though it wasn't where I could go, I would just sit there and be still with God 357 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,640 and I try to still do that. 358 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:30,040 And hospitality, usually you think of doing something for someone and you have them in 359 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:34,480 your home or you take care of a need or something. 360 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:43,280 I actually had to learn to accept hospitality during this time to accept people calling 361 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,000 up and saying, we're going to bring dinner. 362 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,600 We're going to come do this. 363 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,840 We're going to come do that. 364 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:59,840 One of the ladies that did that a lot for us, unfortunately died about a year ago. 365 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,080 She was a very fabulously wealthy woman. 366 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,920 No idea how wealthy, but I mean extremely wealthy, but you wouldn't know it. 367 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,760 She just drove a minivan and didn't dress like she did. 368 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,960 But she would just about once a month, she would just call my wife up and say, I'm going 369 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:17,960 to bring you pizza. 370 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,040 What kind of pizza do you want? 371 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:26,880 She offered to my wife wouldn't let her do it, but she offered to come get all our sheets 372 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,960 and wash them and our towels and all this stuff. 373 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:32,520 And I've always liked to offer hospitality. 374 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:41,760 I've always liked to do for other people and having to let people do that. 375 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,920 It's the discipline of humility really that goes along with that, but you can be hospitable 376 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,680 to people by reaching out to them if they're hurting. 377 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:52,320 If you can visit great. 378 00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:55,560 If you can do something nice for them. 379 00:26:55,560 --> 00:27:01,520 But, you know, practicing that it's a way of showing love for other people. 380 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:03,440 And there's a lot of ways you get into that. 381 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,720 I don't have time, but contemplated Bible reading. 382 00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,440 Yeah, I'll read the Bible through. 383 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,080 Maybe I have not done it this year. 384 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,080 I didn't. 385 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,080 Well, I didn't do it last year. 386 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,760 I haven't done it this year, but normally, excuse me, I just haven't done it this year. 387 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:22,120 Normally I read the Bible entirely through every year, but contemplated Bible reading 388 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:28,000 or meditated Bible reading, doing something like Lectio Divina where you're, you look 389 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:32,720 at it as divine reading, you're looking to be transformed rather than just for some knowledge. 390 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:33,720 Not right. 391 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,080 And this is a very difficult for those of us in ministry. 392 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,720 We're always looking to what can I teach next? 393 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:46,640 What do I do with this to teach other people instead of being transformed by it? 394 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:52,920 And you know, it's taking something like the Lord's prayer and savoring it, savoring 395 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:57,360 every word, reading it out loud, praying before you read it, you know, reading it out loud 396 00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:01,640 and then letting that Lord's prayer guide a prayer for you. 397 00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,440 And I do that a lot with the Lord's prayer. 398 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,320 I do it with Psalm one, I do it with Psalm 20. 399 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:09,560 I do it with different Psalms. 400 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,400 I do it with different passages. 401 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:18,480 So that is very comforting to me to not only be reading, but also combine it with prayer 402 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:25,600 and then prayer, getting in different postures, praying just prayers of Thanksgiving or just 403 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,920 prayers of confession or just prayer of lament. 404 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,560 There are times that you know, chronic pain, especially I just have to tell God, I hurt 405 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,360 so bad. 406 00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:38,840 I just don't want to hurt this bad anymore. 407 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,640 Just help me not to hurt so bad. 408 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,280 But I would, I think my prayers started changing from let me not hurt so bad for me, but let 409 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:50,080 me not hurt so bad so I can do things for other people. 410 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,080 Yeah. 411 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,440 I can do things for you. 412 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:59,160 Because when I am doing things for other people, I feel better and give me the strength 413 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:00,160 to be able to do that. 414 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:04,320 So those are particular ones, but the other one is simplicity and I have continued to 415 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:17,440 practice this, getting rid of things, but not just getting rid of possessions, clearing 416 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:18,640 the calendar a little more. 417 00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:24,760 You know, really thinking about before you make a commitment to do something or get involved 418 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:25,760 with something. 419 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:30,000 Really thinking is this going to, is this going to, I'm not saying even think about benefiting 420 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,680 me, but is it what's the, you know, what's the power behind this? 421 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:34,680 Yeah. 422 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:35,960 What kind of impact can I have? 423 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,920 Is this going to take away from something else I need to be more involved with? 424 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:46,360 Being more in the moment with my children, with my family, being much more in the moment 425 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:47,360 in worship. 426 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,960 Kind of all that goes along with simplicity to me. 427 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,120 So I know that was kind of a rush through. 428 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:54,120 No, it's good. 429 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:58,720 I mean, and I'll kind of follow up on a couple of things you said, just because I think we 430 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:04,160 can draw a few of those things out just to again, really get our listeners to think about 431 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,800 some ways that they can stay engaged with God, because this isn't about you checking 432 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:15,640 a box or performing or this is about God's grace and getting to, getting to just abide 433 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:20,240 in his presence, you know, and so we need these spiritual disciplines are given to us 434 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,520 for blessing and, and they can be challenging sometimes when we're hurting. 435 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,960 And so I think all the things you said were, you know, very helpful. 436 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,200 Oh yeah, I was just going to talk about simplicity for a minute. 437 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:39,640 You know, we have a lesson in our, our leader guide and also our participant guide for our 438 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:44,640 groups that basically is just, I can't remember exactly what it's titled, but something like 439 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,720 learning to say yes and no, you know, kind of going back to Jesus is teaching on that, 440 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,720 you know that yes, yes, and you know, exactly. 441 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,960 And being okay with saying no sometimes, even if people are going to misinterpret or misunderstand 442 00:30:56,960 --> 00:31:04,000 that, that you know that this is something I need to say no to is, is good and, and it 443 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,760 will preserve us in a way that we can do the things that really matter. 444 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,920 So yeah, I really appreciate you saying that and, and reminding us to the different places 445 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,880 we can go for to prayers is, is so important because I think sometimes we feel like we 446 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:21,040 have to invent every single prayer out of thin air, you know, and, and sometimes that's 447 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:25,840 really hard to do, especially when again, your mind is just so saturated with hurting 448 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,760 and you know, of course, we know the famous passage in Romans eight where, you know, it 449 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:34,080 talks about the Holy Spirit interceding for us and those, those utterances or groans or 450 00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:35,920 however it says it there. 451 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,280 But just being reminded about the Psalms and going and praying some of those Psalms, the 452 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:45,320 Lord's prayer and expanding on it and these, I think can just be so, so healthy. 453 00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,280 I'm doing something right now and I'm doing it with a friend and I'm going to give him 454 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,280 credit because he initiated it. 455 00:31:51,280 --> 00:31:56,440 But, you know, we're reading through Isaiah a chapter at a time and when we do it, we're 456 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,240 opening up our prayer journal and every day picking one passage from our reading and 457 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,960 writing it out and then writing a brief prayer. 458 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:03,960 It's not a long prayer. 459 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,880 You know, it's just something that, you know, God helped me with, you know, this or whatever 460 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:08,880 it might be. 461 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,920 And yeah, it works, you know, and it helps and it's not about, you know, I think sometimes 462 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,920 we get this idea that, well, you got to go and pray for three hours straight, you know, 463 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,920 and afford to be in effect to prayer or something. 464 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,600 And I was thinking specifically about a famous quote from Martin Luther when I said that, 465 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,520 you know, where he said something along the lines of I'm so busy today, I've got to spend 466 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,280 at least three hours in prayer, you know, and I think at one point I used to take that 467 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:40,080 as inspirational and maybe it was, you know, for him, I actually see it as that's not all 468 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:45,800 that helpful of a illustration for me today, you know, because I'm probably not going to 469 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,600 go and sit out somewhere for three hours and pray. 470 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:55,600 But there's very many ways that we can effectively and meaningfully engage in prayer and contemplative 471 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,720 reading, you know, in simplicity and solitude. 472 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,560 So thank you very much for that. 473 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,800 I want to kind of piggyback off of that to talk about Thanksgiving for a moment. 474 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,880 Of course, the holiday itself is upon us. 475 00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,400 I'm not sure when will this will be live, but probably before I'm certain that John will 476 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:12,920 get it done here before Thanksgiving. 477 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,720 So it'll be people might be listening to it though before or after either way. 478 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:23,120 I want to talk about scripture that gives me pause sometimes, you know, because the way 479 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:29,480 that it's worded doesn't say like the other ones, it's got a parallel or one very similar 480 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:33,520 over in Thessalonians that says be thankful in all circumstances. 481 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:34,520 I can do that. 482 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:38,320 I mean, I can find something to be thankful for in all circumstances. 483 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,840 Ephesians 5 20 actually says a little bit more directly when it's talking about being 484 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,720 filled with the spirit and part of being filled by the spirit is giving thanks always for 485 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:55,400 everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 486 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,960 And so that's a little more challenging. 487 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:03,400 And I don't think Paul is saying I even though grammatically it seems to say this, I don't 488 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,960 think Paul is really saying that you got to thank God for some terrible thing that happened 489 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:08,960 to you. 490 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,600 I think he probably does go more to the idea of the Thessalonians passage, giving thanks 491 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,840 in every all circumstances. 492 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:21,000 But still I want to ask, you know, when pain dominates, how can we remain thankful? 493 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:26,120 And what advice do you have for hurting people out there that might not be filling the spirit 494 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:30,040 of Thanksgiving too much this year? 495 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,440 How do we how do we handle this? 496 00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:36,960 How do we maintain a thankful posture with God and everything we're going through? 497 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:47,240 Well, the first thing that comes to my mind is being honest with God. 498 00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:52,840 And one of the reasons I love the Psalms and I love, yeah, yeah, I'm the weird guy that 499 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:53,840 likes lamentations. 500 00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:57,120 You know, to read about your mind. 501 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:03,680 I'm not saying I love lamentations, but I appreciate lamentations. 502 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:09,200 And Jesus, even Jesus, and when I teach on prayer, I remind people of Jesus praying in 503 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:13,240 the garden. 504 00:35:13,240 --> 00:35:16,080 Jesus was not looking forward to hurting. 505 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,680 No, he wasn't looking forward all they wouldn't look forward to the spiritual, the mental, 506 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,800 the physical, the emotional, all that. 507 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:27,360 God created us. 508 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,760 He knows us more than we know ourselves. 509 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,880 He designed our bodies. 510 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,440 He doesn't want us to hurt. 511 00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,160 He doesn't want us to have pain anymore. 512 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,480 I mean, we have a promise of that, right? 513 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:51,040 As Christians, yeah, but we could read throughout scripture of people who hurt. 514 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,040 Yes. 515 00:35:52,040 --> 00:36:00,400 And who also can become or have become sort of spiritual heroes to us. 516 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:10,360 One of the things with me is I want my children to see me still thanking God for what he does 517 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,040 and how he cares for us. 518 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:19,080 And so every night when we pray as a family, that's one of the things I always include 519 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:27,320 is thanking God for how he takes care of us and provides for us because, you know, if 520 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:36,520 you are still around to hear this, then God's still providing for you. 521 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,280 You know, you haven't been through something you can't handle. 522 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:46,440 If you can hear this, if you can talk to people, if you can pray, you're actually able to handle 523 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:47,440 it. 524 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,960 It's not pretty. 525 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,760 It's not fun. 526 00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,200 I can't. 527 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:59,440 I don't know that I've ever thanked God for my pain, but I have thanked him for being 528 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:01,440 able to still feel it. 529 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:08,240 You know, to be alive, to be with my children, to be with my wife. 530 00:37:08,240 --> 00:37:13,320 I'm thankful to be in a situation where, you know, I'm okay. 531 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,360 You know, we're okay financially. 532 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,560 One of the things that I just do and I recommend on a regular basis is to tell yourself the 533 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:21,560 truth. 534 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:27,360 Be honest with God and tell him when you're hurting, but also be thankful for him providing 535 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,120 for you and giving you the strength. 536 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:30,120 I just pray for strength. 537 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:36,680 I think everybody listening to this probably prays for strength pretty regularly, but also 538 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,920 pray to be a blessing for other people and thank God when you have that opportunity. 539 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:45,160 But the other thing is, is being honest with yourself. 540 00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:51,120 Tell yourself the truth that life isn't over. 541 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,040 There are still parts of life you can enjoy. 542 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:58,080 You can find things to appreciate. 543 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:08,400 You may actually enjoy looking at a flower or smelling a flower or laughter or some significant 544 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,360 scripture or a conversation with somebody or something. 545 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:16,720 You may appreciate that far more now when you're in pain. 546 00:38:16,720 --> 00:38:18,280 But tell yourself the truth. 547 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,040 List out your blessings. 548 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:21,040 Count your blessings. 549 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,080 There's something to that. 550 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:32,520 When we let the devil tell us that we're worthless now because we hurt, I'll be honest. 551 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,080 I've been through those days where I just feel worthless. 552 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,120 I'm no use to anybody anymore. 553 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,960 But that's not true. 554 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:47,360 Talking to God about it, he reminds us that we're not worthless and that we are worth 555 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:48,960 something. 556 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:54,040 We can be thankful for that relationship with him and that he is with us in the pain and 557 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:55,040 he gives us the strength. 558 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:02,120 One of the things I think I noticed about my pain levels is I was able to learn to tolerate 559 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,800 a lot more than I thought. 560 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:12,320 I think sometimes the level of pain goes down a little bit when you've been in it for a 561 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,040 long time and you can kind of handle it a little bit better. 562 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:23,920 I thank God for even the ability to manage it some days without having to take some serious 563 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:29,280 pain meds or something that is going to knock me out. 564 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,680 I'm thankful for that. 565 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,400 There's a lot to be thankful for. 566 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:39,560 I think it's a pretty cynical and dead end if we get into a point where we think that 567 00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:42,200 there's nothing to be thankful for. 568 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:48,040 Another thing I think one of the reasons broken and mended exists is to help rescue people 569 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:53,120 from that cliff that you don't want to go off of. 570 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:58,600 I do think, and that's kind of to that point as it relates to a support group, when you've 571 00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:04,240 got people around you that have been through similar things, it helps put things in perspective, 572 00:40:04,240 --> 00:40:09,240 not because we're diminishing what we're going through, but rather that we were reminded that 573 00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:15,480 we're not unique in the sense that we're the only ones who have ever suffered. 574 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,520 I think it's important to know that because sometimes when we're hurting really bad, we 575 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:27,480 can get pretty narrow in our view of the world and pretty focused on ourselves, understandably. 576 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,840 When we hear and we're around other people that are suffering too, I think that helps. 577 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,880 Even your discussion there about the Bible and the characters in the Bible who suffered 578 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:41,720 and well, not the least of which was, I know it wasn't chronic pain, but Jesus, you did 579 00:40:41,720 --> 00:40:45,640 mention the course in Garden of Gethsemane and then the cross subsequent cross, he suffered 580 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,360 more than anyone willingly for us. 581 00:40:48,360 --> 00:40:52,080 But I even think about apostle Paul and all his sufferings and maybe even had a chronic 582 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,640 condition of some kind. 583 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,120 I think he probably had more than one. 584 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:01,800 And so, yeah, we're not alone and certainly not alone because God is with us. 585 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:08,000 You recently shared your story in our group, our main broken amended support group and 586 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,920 wanted to ask you and this is a little bit of a, you know, kind of I'm making a plug 587 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:17,600 for the support group course, you know, and I want to know kind of what it was like for 588 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:22,720 you to share a story and maybe what would you say would be the benefit of people interacting 589 00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:27,080 with one another in a support group like that? 590 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:36,160 I knew I needed a support group and I looked for something in my immediate area for a while 591 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:45,080 and couldn't find anything that fit, you know, not, if it fit, it wasn't, it didn't have 592 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:46,880 any spiritual component to it. 593 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:54,920 And I knew I didn't want to really participate in something that just practiced a secular 594 00:41:54,920 --> 00:42:01,280 approach to dealing with pain because I just don't think that's healthy or correct. 595 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,400 But I really didn't, I knew that you were doing something. 596 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:09,360 I knew broken amended was around, but I didn't really, I think I didn't understand that there 597 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:14,800 was a way to participate from where I was, you know, where I am here in Tennessee. 598 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:19,240 And so when you gave me opportunity to do that and share my story, yeah, some of it 599 00:42:19,240 --> 00:42:23,960 was about sharing my story, but from a pretty selfish perspective, I just wanted to be around 600 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,200 other people that could understand. 601 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:34,320 And when I got through that meeting with you all, I went out to my wife and I broke down 602 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,760 and cried on her for a while. 603 00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,200 And it was not a, it wasn't a sad cry. 604 00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:51,360 It was like a relief that there were people who were Christians who were dedicated disciples 605 00:42:51,360 --> 00:43:03,320 of Jesus Christ who hurt like me and they care that I hurt because they understand because 606 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:10,960 I don't know, just haven't, I haven't felt that support from a lot of folks. 607 00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:13,760 And I don't think that's been some malicious thing. 608 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,280 I think it's more of a lack of sympathy, lack of, not a lack, I hate to say lack of sympathy, 609 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:19,280 lack of understanding. 610 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,960 And they're not equipped to be able to deeply understand it. 611 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:23,960 Yeah. 612 00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:24,960 Right. 613 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:32,760 And one of the problems with chronic pain is you can't always see it on somebody, especially 614 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:41,440 if you're, okay, if you're like me, you try to sort of buck up and put on a better face, 615 00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,280 you know, to make people, especially around my kids want to feel better, but I, but I 616 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,320 also couldn't a lot of times I couldn't do that. 617 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,480 But it is interesting. 618 00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:52,160 I have one, one friend here locally who has rheumatoid arthritis. 619 00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:54,520 She doesn't go to church with me. 620 00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,200 She doesn't approach it from a Christian perspective. 621 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:03,800 And, but I see her, she's connected to some stuff my son's involved with. 622 00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:11,200 And so she's very empathetic and she'll ask me and then she noticed I was doing a lot 623 00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,800 better and she said, you know, don't take this wrong way, but you look great. 624 00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:18,320 You know, you look like you're, you know, you're not all bound up with all those races 625 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:19,720 and all that stuff. 626 00:44:19,720 --> 00:44:22,440 Um, that doesn't mean I'm never putting them on. 627 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,960 And I do, like I said, I got some on today, but, um, just being able to drive my son to 628 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:29,240 where he needs to be is a big deal. 629 00:44:29,240 --> 00:44:36,360 But just having people understand and not only having people understand, but being able 630 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:41,640 to show compassion for somebody else that's dealing with what you're dealing with that. 631 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,000 I don't even know how to put that into words necessarily. 632 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,080 It's like, Hey, they get me. 633 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:47,080 I get them. 634 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,520 And that's, that's a, that's a pretty amazing thing. 635 00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:55,080 You know, they're just, they're just aren't that many people that get it. 636 00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:56,080 Right. 637 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:57,960 And, uh, understand it. 638 00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:58,960 And so you need it. 639 00:44:58,960 --> 00:44:59,960 I need it. 640 00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:05,720 We need an outlet to just share together, pray together, encourage each other. 641 00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:09,520 Uh, it's, it's very uplifting. 642 00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,720 Well thank you for saying that and you know, I would want to, because I'm sure you're right. 643 00:45:14,720 --> 00:45:19,080 I'm sure when people hear about this and then we hear we're located in Northwest Oklahoma 644 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:20,760 and they're like, well, what good is that going to do me? 645 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:22,880 You know, uh, well, there's a lot of ways. 646 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:26,640 I mean, obviously like the podcast or blog posts and other resources, I mean, there, 647 00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:31,560 those things are available to anyone at brokenamended.org for when you check that out. 648 00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,960 Um, but there are ways to participate in the group itself. 649 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,640 You're well, anyone is welcome from anywhere in the world to join our main group, which 650 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,560 is, uh, right now on first Tuesdays of the month at seven o'clock. 651 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,360 Um, and you can reach out through the website. 652 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,760 If you want to get more information there, there's a contact form where you can, you 653 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:51,760 can contact me that way. 654 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:52,920 That's the easiest way to do it. 655 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,480 And I can get you the details and get you the zoom link. 656 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:59,400 Um, you know, or you can be invited to the Facebook group and you can participate, you 657 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,080 know, through the, you know, the chat feature on Facebook. 658 00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,080 The zoom is better. 659 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,400 We're always trying to get people, people are shy, you know, and they sometimes won't 660 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:07,400 get on there. 661 00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,680 Um, but I'm happy to have people participate on whatever level they're comfortable participating 662 00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:12,680 with. 663 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,200 Uh, in addition, uh, and I know, uh, Tim, this is probably a future conversation for 664 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,640 us as well, but you know, we're trying to encourage people to consider, do they got 665 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:24,000 a group of friends or a group of people they want to minister to in their local setting 666 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:28,840 where they can pull together people, uh, and provide both online and in person, you know, 667 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,600 contact because, uh, truth is a lot of people are in situations where they, you know, not 668 00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:35,480 able to go and get to an in person meeting. 669 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,080 And so from the very beginning, you talked about using online stuff, you know, before 670 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,280 it was trendy because of COVID. 671 00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:42,280 We were, we were the same. 672 00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:45,680 We were, we were doing zoom before a lot of people knew what zoom was. 673 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,760 And we had people that that was the only way they could participate and they, and they, 674 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:52,920 that was the only way we weren't streaming our church services yet either. 675 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,600 So for them, it became a lifeline back to the church that they had not had maybe in 676 00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,480 some cases for decades. 677 00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:04,120 Um, that all of a sudden they felt connected to, like you said, a group of disciples, uh, 678 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:05,520 people were struggling with the same thing. 679 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,600 And so that, that can be very powerful. 680 00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:09,120 So yeah, I'll mention those things. 681 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:15,360 Um, you know, Tim, as we wrap up, is there anything on the horizon for you that, um, 682 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,360 you know, kind of what's next in your journey? 683 00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:23,920 And, uh, I've got a daughter about to, my oldest daughter's about to graduate from college 684 00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:25,600 and move back home for a little while. 685 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,600 She's starting a, uh, uh, as going to be an ICU nurse. 686 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:30,600 So that's kind of my next thing. 687 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:31,600 Just family related. 688 00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:32,600 Yeah. 689 00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:38,880 Um, looking, uh, for more ways to minister to other people, uh, as I feel a little bit 690 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:46,280 better, uh, learning to, uh, manage my pain when it comes up in, in healthy ways. 691 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:51,160 One thing I will mention is I just recently became part of a research study through the 692 00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:57,680 Cleveland clinic, uh, dealing with people with psoriatic arthritis specifically. 693 00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,040 And it's not a, it's not a medicine study. 694 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:10,640 It's actually, uh, like a E coaching, uh, study related to lifestyle, um, changes, uh, 695 00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:14,400 stress reduction, uh, sleep, uh, diet and exercise. 696 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,800 And you got a coach that just have started that. 697 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:17,800 Okay. 698 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:18,800 And it's a 12 week study. 699 00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:20,920 So it's called immune strength. 700 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:26,520 Um, so that on my, on my disease size, that side, that's what's going on there. 701 00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:27,520 Yeah. 702 00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:33,520 And I'm very, very hopeful that that content will help me, uh, you know, learn some things. 703 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:34,920 And so I'm hoping it helps other people. 704 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:35,920 That's the main reason I enrolled. 705 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:36,920 Yeah. 706 00:48:36,920 --> 00:48:39,320 I was going to say, I mean, you might learn some really great things that you can share 707 00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:40,320 with us in that too. 708 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:46,960 So, and that's what I'm hopeful for, uh, especially as I try to, to, uh, come on board here with 709 00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:52,280 broken and mended as a volunteer and helping, um, and helping other people like me. 710 00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,640 It gives me a lot of encouragement and strength. 711 00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,040 And so if I learn more things, I'm a researcher. 712 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:58,040 I'm a studier. 713 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,920 I'm a, uh, I try to experience things to help other people. 714 00:49:00,920 --> 00:49:02,920 I want to be able to do that. 715 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:03,920 Sure. 716 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:04,920 That's awesome. 717 00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:09,680 And, you know, so thankful to have had you on the podcast today and, uh, looking forward 718 00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:14,720 to being connected, going forward and, and just very thankful for your, uh, thanks for 719 00:49:14,720 --> 00:49:16,800 having me and thank you for all you do. 720 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:24,960 And praying, praying for you as you yourself, uh, experience chronic pain and, uh, feeling. 721 00:49:24,960 --> 00:49:28,120 And I, you know, it's kind of strange, you know, cause you go through those phases, uh, 722 00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:32,160 and maybe, maybe your phase of feeling better will be, uh, just a new place where you'll 723 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:33,840 be able to maintain for a long time. 724 00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:39,480 I, I have been through phases like that and, and other phases that were very unpleasant 725 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,400 and everything in between. 726 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:45,120 And, you know, so either way, you know, I think we need each other. 727 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:50,800 We need God and, you know, and it's, it gives purpose to suffering to have God with us, 728 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,320 you know, and he, cause he's the one that can redeem it. 729 00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:57,800 Uh, it's just suffering for no reason, you know, and I, but I believe that God has got 730 00:49:57,800 --> 00:49:59,200 to redeem to purpose in it. 731 00:49:59,200 --> 00:50:01,440 So yes, thank you for, for being with us. 732 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,280 We'll wrap it up here as we're actually coming up, uh, uh, one of the, one of the longer 733 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,640 conversations we had on broken, which is good. 734 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:14,320 I think, um, but I want to say that, um, uh, probably in the future, man, I mean, between 735 00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:18,440 Christmas or Thanksgiving and Christmas, I'm going to have a couple of guys on here talking 736 00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:25,160 about, uh, their role as a supporter of someone in both of their spouses or chronic pain and 737 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:26,160 chronic illness. 738 00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:28,160 I want to speak to that community a little bit too. 739 00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,400 Um, and both of those guys are willing to talk about that cause they have, well, they've 740 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:36,200 been through it and there's a whole different side of it when it comes to, uh, and in this 741 00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,720 case, the spouse, uh, that goes through that. 742 00:50:38,720 --> 00:50:42,320 So, um, hopefully that'll be interesting to people as well. 743 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,120 And so if you're listening, uh, you know, which I guess if you just heard me say that 744 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,000 you are listening, uh, but want to just, uh, again, encourage you to check out the website. 745 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,760 You can also find past podcast episodes there on the website, but that's also available 746 00:50:54,760 --> 00:50:57,240 in all the other places you find your podcast. 747 00:50:57,240 --> 00:51:02,560 Uh, and so we'll sign off until next time and just, uh, hope that, uh, God is with each 748 00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:05,120 of you as you go on this journey through the struggle. 749 00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,120 Amen. 750 00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:16,120 Thank you.