David Heflin (00:01.166)
I'm going to welcome you back to In the Seams. In a moment, you're going to hear a wonderful interview that I did with Laura Silverman. And she's written a memoir, very heart-stirring, really impactful, a memoir about her own story with chronic illness and how it changed her life and led to disability and her having to give up her career, and really was completely bed-bound for three or four years. And she talks about that.

But through that process, she became really good friends and eventually fell in love with a man who had terminal cancer. And they weren't giving up. They were trying to get him into some treatments, some experimental treatments, trial treatments. And it didn't ultimately work out, and Matt did eventually pass away after they had been married over just over a year. And so all of that is part of her story, her struggles with God in this and

It's just so true to what we experience in our suffering that she's not trying to just sugarcoat anything, even about her own feelings and thoughts, and even where she is today. And yet, there's this faithfulness that she continues to hold on to God as God holds on to her. And so, it's going to be a very encouraging interview for you to hear because I think you'll resonate with what Laura has to say.

I don't need to introduce all the different themes and things that we talk about that will be in the interview itself, and as I kind of lead up into the interview in just a moment, but just be blessed as you listen to this, and we're glad to have you on In the Seams.

David Heflin (00:01.262)
Well, I'm gonna welcome you back to In the Seams. I'm very excited to have Laura Silverman here as our guest today. Laura reached out a little while ago, maybe six weeks or so ago, and told me about a book that she had been writing, was getting ready to release. It has since been released, and I had the opportunity to read it. I've read it from cover to cover, and it was a very touching and profound experience to read that book. And while you're listening to Laura's journey, her struggles, and

Lara Silverman (00:20.86)
you

David Heflin (00:31.234)
her husband, Matt's along the way, you were able to relate it to your own, at least I was. And so I'm gonna certainly highly recommend that book and I'm gonna link it in the show notes. And I do want to also mention another mutual connection we have with Arne and Trina Bahadurian. They have been on this podcast before and they have their own compelling, difficult story, but one that still enriches faith.

and they are going to be speaking at our conference on October 18th. So that's just a few weeks away. It is free. It's virtual. So you don't have to travel anywhere. You just got to get to a computer. And so just want to encourage you. Of course that will be linked in the show notes as well. If you've not already done so, please register for that. And I will say for those that register, I will also make the YouTube links, which are going to be unlisted. I'll make them available.

to even if you're not able to watch it live. they'll give you a little extra incentive to go ahead and register. We want you to be a part of that. But Laura has a, you know, very life altering chronic illness story. And she'll get into that a little bit here in a moment of never ending vertigo and nausea and neurological pain and really disability that comes with all that. And then, but led to a love story with her husband, Matt, who had

at the beginning and from the beginning she knew this and that he had terminal cancer. Although they weren't giving up, there was a battle for survival and that in itself is a big part of the story that they tell. And then it also deals with the aftermath of grief and the struggle of faith and hope through it all. So that's something that you see, it's very authentic. And so we're going to end this discussion because it covers so much. And we're going to be here for

no more than an hour, 45 minutes to an hour. We're really focus on two topics that really are not only embedded in the book, but I would say that they're experienced in the book when you're reading it. And so a theology of suffering and keeping eternity in view. So Laura, I welcome you to the show. I thank you for joining us on End of The Seams.

Lara Silverman (02:42.171)
Thank you so much. It's such an honor to be on here.

David Heflin (02:47.116)
Yes, well, thank you. And I know this is going to be a blessing to many people. The people that that listen to this interview will be blessed. But I also think if they will go ahead and and get your book, it will be a real blessing. And so so they have a little orientation to what prompted this book and what prompted really what led to everything in that came out in the book. I know you write about in the early part of your book that you were set up for the perfect Armenian life. That's what you were seeking.

Lara Silverman (03:07.921)
you

Lara Silverman (03:13.415)
You

David Heflin (03:14.838)
Well, not not all of us know a whole lot about Armenian life. I'm sure some of the things would be a carry over to however we would picture our our our perfect life. But what did that look like for you?

Lara Silverman (03:26.279)
Sure, so I was raised in an Armenian evangelical church with solid theology, great community. mean, they were instilling Armenian cultural values as well as the Bible principles. But I think that somewhere deep down, maybe in my family or just generally in the culture, there's this sort of prosperity gospel light, which is like, the good life that God wants to give his faithful followers is, you grow up.

good career, get married, pop the babies, have kebab picnics, and then you die, right? It's like this idea that God wants to just, you know, it's the family unit, it's the, you know, sort of all the earthly blessings. I like to call it the bag of basic blessings. Like this is what we kind of strive towards in the church. And, you know, and why wouldn't we? Because, you know, these are good things that God created. so that was very much the framework I was raised in. wasn't, you know, taught much about suffering.

you know, thankfully because I had a great childhood, God blessed me with wonderful parents. So I was pretty much shielded from suffering and as a byproduct of that, a good theology of how to handle suffering for a very long time. And so that's kind of the backdrop of the framework in which I was operating in my early to mid 20s, you know, trying to find, you know, a good Armenian Christian man to marry, someone who could lead me biblically, but also share my cultural values.

And I was also trying to become a strong lawyer and I had gone to law school. so my two goals were, you know, career and family and, know, God, of course, but more like, you know, Lord, please bless my desires sort of thing. So.

David Heflin (05:06.766)
Sure. Well, I, yeah, thank you for that answer. I'm thinking about how insidious that insidious, think, what I'm looking for there can kind of work that health and wealth gospel, a prosperity gospel can work itself into our churches and not just those that we think are obvious. You know, the ones we say, oh, those are the faith healers or something like that. But, but really it just kind of gets in with the American dream ideas and

Lara Silverman (05:25.958)
Right.

Yeah.

Lara Silverman (05:35.303)
Exactly, yeah.

David Heflin (05:37.046)
Yeah. And, and we don't even realize it until we walk into a, you know, a wall, you know, when we hit suffering. And I know that's essentially what happened to you. You mentioned you were an attorney. I want to just mention for our, you know, our listeners to just know that you were an immensely, are an immensely, talented person, you know, with your work in theater and

Lara Silverman (05:42.631)
Yeah.

David Heflin (05:59.064)
singing and then you learned the violin on the fly, you know, and so just all kinds of things that can meet a comic stuff, all kinds of stuff that you're involved in. So you had a very active life is my point and a lot of things that you enjoy doing, but at the height of that was your, your career and you had just started your dream job. And of course, anytime something happens, you get sick, we expect to get over it. so whatever is going on, even though I'm sure it was scary right at the beginning, there's expectation that you'll figure it out.

Lara Silverman (06:01.799)
You

Lara Silverman (06:13.958)
Yeah.

David Heflin (06:28.226)
But when did you realize that this wasn't a detour, but it was your new landscape, your new reality?

Lara Silverman (06:36.187)
That's such a good way of putting it. mean, so basically I was on the second week of my dream job, as you said, at the United States Attorney's Office to be a federal prosecutor. And I had worked so hard for so many years studying in law school. I mean, this was my dream to be a trial lawyer, just dealing with justice and...

And then I fell mysteriously ill with this like random neurological illness. And I had been healthy as a horse for the first 30 years of my life. So I'm this 30 year old, I'm fresh on this job, you know, and I was so excited to conquer the world. And then boom, I'm on a bed and my, my parents were nursing me, you know, we tried 150 therapies. I mean, we, was a long stretch. I mean, basically on that bed, just, I mean, for years.

And so I went from like the top of my game, know, prosecuting in four rooms to literally being just bedridden, like literally on a bedpan with my mom nursing me. couldn't move due to the neurological pain and the spinning and everything else. So there came a point, you know,

few years into the bed, you know, when I had, by that point I had resigned from the job and the Holy Spirit walked me through that as you'll see in my memoir. He was, even though all these decisions were pretty devastating, you can see God's hand walking me through. So he never left me alone as difficult as the questions were. And in fact, I was very honest in my memoir. So I hope I don't jar people, you know, with my, you know, just frank confessions of bitterness and questions, but I wanted to show the struggle to show how God met me there.

It almost shows like how good he is because it's like he didn't just let me yell into the ceiling. He actually like comforted me despite my anger at him. So anyway, I digress. yeah, so he gave me a word of acceptance at one point and I didn't quite understand what it was at first.

Lara Silverman (08:26.983)
But obviously the more I prayed it just became very clear to me and and that was a struggle because my family Resisted it, you know, you know what word from the Holy Spirit? Like what are you talking about? God God heals God saves God doesn't call us to stay in the valley I mean all these things which added to the difficulty of already the pain of how difficult acceptance is So I'm like trying to follow the Lord and surrender but then my family's pushing back I mean and I love my family to be clear. It's just you can imagine the pain it would cause

when you're all raised in an environment where, no, God's the healer, God wants to heal, but it's like, it's right there in the gospel. Look at Paul, the Lord did not heal his thorn in the flesh despite countless pleadings. So anyway, that was, that's the answer.

David Heflin (09:13.272)
Well, and that was a point in your book that really resonated with me. And I may not recall the details exactly now, but I remember being in something at a church event of some kind and someone, you know, coming up and saying something to you, you know, along the lines of, you know, that you're giving up or you're not surrendering and accepting, you know, and so many of us with chronic illness hear that kind of messaging a lot and

Lara Silverman (09:32.472)
Alright

Lara Silverman (09:39.779)
Exactly.

David Heflin (09:40.736)
And it is hurtful because I believe God can heal. I know you believe God can heal, you know, but we also believe that God is working in our lives to show us, if he doesn't show us a whole lot of steps at a time, but maybe at least the next step in surrendering to that might mean accepting that I'm going to live with this chronic illness as faithfully as I can. And I still doesn't preclude that God can heal if and when he wants to, but it's like, I've got to live my life in the moment now with God.

Lara Silverman (09:45.647)
Right. Yeah, it's...

Lara Silverman (10:10.407)
Exactly, yeah.

David Heflin (10:10.578)
is, kinda, it's kinda the message I try to get people to see. And I saw really resonated with that part of your story where people were struggling to understand almost that they didn't have a category for that way of looking at it.

Lara Silverman (10:21.959)
Yeah, I mean, I almost wish God put in the gospels. I mean, although he kind of did with Paul's Thorn in the Flesh, it's clear that it was chronic and God wasn't going to take it away. But I wish God had like a, you know, paragraph on chronic illnesses or something in Corinthians. Or you know what I'm saying? Like, wouldn't that be cool if God gave framework so that people wouldn't say this sort of stuff? Yeah.

David Heflin (10:29.389)
Right.

David Heflin (10:42.956)
Right, Do you watch the chosen? Sorry, that's going off script a little bit. Okay, so you're probably familiar with the scene with little James.

Lara Silverman (10:47.527)
I do, yeah.

Lara Silverman (10:52.899)
It's actually in my memoir. don't, maybe you, yeah. Yeah.

David Heflin (10:55.354)
I probably did see it then. Yeah. I mean, I, I wouldn't necessarily remember that just because I refer to it all time. I just, I just showed it as part of a presentation at another church and people, you know, had chronic illness were tears. Yeah. Now it's an amazing, dignifying moment for people that are living with chronic illness.

Lara Silverman (11:01.537)
yeah.

Tears.

Lara Silverman (11:14.253)
Yeah, when I saw that first, was like, Lord, why isn't this a real scene in the Bible? Like kudos to the artistic license, you know, for, know, as long as something's biblical, I'm okay with, you know, I mean, people have their opinions on that, yeah. Yeah, me too. The heart of the gospel. Yeah, as long as they're not contradicting, you know.

David Heflin (11:20.331)
Right.

David Heflin (11:25.76)
Right. Yeah. I know. I know everything's polarizing in our society today, but I love the, I love the chosen. And I think it reflects the heart of Jesus and the gospel. Right. Yeah. So, well, we digress, but, it's fun. so I want to, kind of though staying with this idea of acceptance because also I think people should be aware. It's not like you accept and it's over and done with.

I'm good with God, no more problems. This is a continual, there are stages to it. There are times where you kind of fall back into a way maybe that you thought you had overcome in terms of your trust or walk with God and new things happen. You have new situations that come into life. And at one point in your book, you asked the question, I don't remember if it was in conversation with Matt or not, but you said, if God is good, why can't God just be good? So can you explain the tension you were experiencing that prompted that question?

Lara Silverman (12:18.074)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (12:23.015)
I mean, I know it sounds so I mean it's such a mean thing to say to the Lord I was in a in a moment where I was just so angry because We were engaged Matt and I were engaged to be married but his latest clinical trial result came You know know again like a rejection and we had a lot of hope in that one Like we felt like God had given us reasons to hope so I felt really demoralized but my point there was like, okay, the Bible says

David Heflin (12:34.658)
Okay.

David Heflin (12:40.718)
Hmm.

Lara Silverman (12:51.791)
He is good, he is faithful, his character is just, he can only do what's best for you. He can only, he wants what's best for you. I mean, in other words, he is a loving father. He does not want to do you harm. And then you look at this dissonance, if you will, with, then why is he, why is my heavenly father allowing me to suffer? Like if he is good, why can't he just, maybe another way of saying be good is why can't he just do good to me? Like.

the way I perceive good, like earthly good, like heal me, know, whatever, put me in a good fan or, you know, I mean, just that, I guess we can focus on the healing. So that's that tension which every chronic illness sufferer who's a Christian, I'm sure struggles with at least at the beginning. It's just, it's like, how do we, what's the word? What's the word in law? You know, how do you bring, hold that tension? You know what I'm saying?

David Heflin (13:46.35)
Mm-hmm.

comfortably for sure. You know, I think, okay, yeah, how you reconcile those two things. And I think it might be especially hard. And this was in your book several times in particular relation relation to the clinical trials where it looked like things were falling in place. It's very easy to interpret that as in okay, God is doing this. Yeah. And so then that's

Lara Silverman (13:50.681)
Yeah. reconcile. How do we reconcile the two? Yeah.

Lara Silverman (14:11.303)
He's moving, yeah.

David Heflin (14:15.886)
even more heartbreaking. It would have been easier probably to hear no at the beginning of the process than it is to think, oh, okay, this is falling in line. God's blessing this and it doesn't happen. And that's hard. That's why I appreciated the book so much actually. And I was going to talk about this a little later. I'm going to go ahead and bring it up now because you brought it up earlier about just the feelings of anger, resentment at times and how that might be jarring to people. I think it would be jarring.

Lara Silverman (14:38.373)
Yeah.

David Heflin (14:43.714)
people if they read the book of Job or if they read the Psalms or they read, you know what I mean? It's there. It's just sometimes we just don't read those when we are starting a worship service. And so we miss out on how much emphasis is put on that being real with God. And it's not unfaithfulness to do that. It's rather a faithful practice of worship and lament.

Lara Silverman (14:49.328)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (14:52.647)
Yeah.

David Heflin (15:08.279)
you know, and I'm sure we're not perfect when we're going through that, but yeah, it is, it is a faithful expression of lament.

Lara Silverman (15:15.505)
Thanks for saying that. mean, yeah, so I wanted to write the book that way, to be authentic and show other people that they're not the only ones struggling, but also B, just to...

Where was I gonna go with this? Yeah, just to show that like in the life of faith you can struggle I mean you you must struggle I mean we everyone goes through suffering so it's like if you're gonna write a memoir that captures the Christian experience and suffering which this is kind of what my goal was I wanted to just be totally honest now I will say though that there is a fine line and I think frankly and I've had to repent of this I crossed it sometimes in terms of you know, there's a difference between lamenting

and putting your fists up at the Lord and saying, this is wrong, this is unfair. And only the Lord knows that between me and him in my heart, in terms of blaming him. And I've had to really, frankly, sometimes it's still up and down just with the grief over Matt, but the Lord is still meeting me there. If anything, at least he's teaching me about his grace. Like he has forgiven me over and over the last, even just three months.

when I'm just still lashing out just in my heart, you know, about, this path is so difficult. And yet he still gives me grace with the prodigal son story. And, you know, he just speaks to me in timely ways of, look, I've, you know, I'm trying to discipline you. I'm trying to get you to surrender, but if you do repent, I will always receive you. So I'm just trying to showcase God's grace also.

David Heflin (16:45.132)
Yes, and I think that does come out very clear in the book. And so I appreciate that emphasis. I think it's helpful for us to remember that God is not insecure and easily insulted and, you know, just goes into a tantrum and thank God for us, right? That he doesn't, you know, do that. That he does allow us, even when we do cross the line, there's a way back. He's working to reconcile us to Him at all times.

Lara Silverman (16:56.903)
you

David Heflin (17:13.034)
So yeah, I appreciate that that emphasis on God's grace throughout everything that you went through and that we go through. Let's talk about theology of suffering for a moment. And I remember that you list a number of reasons for suffering. I'm not going to ask you to enumerate those right now, but I do want to just say what what does scripture promise about suffering and what does it not promise? And how do we get those mixed up sometimes?

Lara Silverman (17:41.315)
absolutely. obviously scripture makes, you know, grandiose, beautiful promises about God's protection. He is our refuge. He is our strength. He will cover you with his wings. He will, you know, guide you safely. I mean, there's countless scriptures and that's where the prosperity, the false prosperity gospel preachers take it out of context and they say God just wants to give you health, wealth, blah, blah.

It's all false because you have to take it in context and in the totality of scripture and if you read Yes, the lord is a good father and will protect us and guide us safely to you know towards home, right eternity ultimately, but The bible jesus made very clear in this life. You will have trouble but take heart I have overcome the world and in fact jesus promised suffering. He said if you are going to be my follower, I mean

Honestly, I hadn't even heard of this verse. Obviously I was a Bible reader, but it never resonated, the verse where Jesus says, if you are my follower, you need to take up your cross. Like when you're not suffering and you've got the quote unquote good life, know, career, this young in your twenties, who's thinking about taking up their cross? I mean, what does that even mean? But it's right there in the New Testament. I mean, and Paul.

In the epistles, it's like this repetitive theme over and over again about how our sufferings lead to glory. If we follow Christ, we suffer with Christ. we, I mean, it's just this nonstop thread if you follow it through. And that's why Matt was so big on teaching his youth group kids a solid theology of suffering because, you know, a lot of us like me grow up and I'm not blaming my Sunday school teachers or something. I'm just saying we grow up without a framework.

that hey, actually God calls us to suffer like he, I mean, calls is kind of a loaded word, but it's like, it is part of our calling. I mean, I'm convinced of that, like, and he uses it to change us to be like Christ, you know, all the, you know, usual answers, right? The conformity to Christ and yeah.

David Heflin (19:37.71)
But kind of along those same lines, what do people, well, we talked about the prosperity gospel. So what's a false idea people might have about suffering?

Lara Silverman (19:45.137)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (19:51.525)
that if God loves you and if you've been faithful to him, he will bless you in an earthly sense. In other words, he won't allow trouble to come near your tent. And actually that is a verse in the Bible. you know, my friends and I have debated that like, well, I just, have all sorts of trouble around my tent, Lord. But I think, I don't know if God was speaking metaphorically or it's more in that verse, at least I think he's saying like, I...

David Heflin (20:08.78)
Right.

Lara Silverman (20:16.729)
I am with you in the fire. It's like, won't let anything touch you spiritually. Like I'm gonna hold you through kind of like he's done for me. But one lie we tell ourselves, which I frankly still sometimes the enemy tries to, if God loves you, you wouldn't be suffering this much. He just wouldn't allow it. And that couldn't be further from the truth. Look at Jesus. God loved Jesus. I mean, it's his son, for heaven's sakes. And yet he allowed him to be crucified. We can't even, I still don't even understand.

David Heflin (20:36.6)
Mm-hmm.

Lara Silverman (20:45.957)
this love, you know, what, I mean, it's wild.

David Heflin (20:51.342)
It is wild and there is a lot of suffering in the Bible from faithful people. And a lot of times not only, you know, despite the fact that they're faithful, it's even sometimes because they are that they, like Paul, Paul is a great example, like you said, who so much of his suffering came about because of his service to Christ. In fact, one of the first things Paul is told, or actually he's told to Ananias, you know, he's, you're going to,

Lara Silverman (21:06.663)
Yeah.

David Heflin (21:20.076)
I want show Paul how much he must suffer for my name. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So that really, yeah, it is. hard to accept that, right? Because one of my favorite verses when I was younger, before I knew a lot about suffering myself and suffering can come at any age, by the way, we're not saying we, know, I just at this point had not experienced a lot. but I remember trying to pray the prayer from Philippians three where Paul says, I want to know Christ in the power of his resurrection.

Lara Silverman (21:20.327)
I was just gonna say that first. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's wild.

Lara Silverman (21:39.854)
Yeah.

David Heflin (21:50.112)
It's really easy to say, yeah, thumbs up to that. And then the next line says, and to share in the fellowship of his sufferings. And I remember pausing at that and thinking, I'm not sure that I want to pray that. And I'm not understanding how Paul was able to pray it. And I see it from a different perspective now, but not because I just became so brave. I said, bring on suffering, but rather the suffering came and I had to figure out what to do with it. And if you're going to go through it,

Lara Silverman (21:57.422)
Exactly.

Lara Silverman (22:17.639)
Absolutely.

David Heflin (22:20.086)
I want Christ to use it to draw me closer to him.

Lara Silverman (22:23.087)
You know, I still, I still ask the Lord frankly, and I have this part in my book where I'm like, okay, Lord, I understand how you use suffering and how you redeem it and sort of the purposes, but why couldn't you set up the world? I mean, this is just my lawyer analytical mind, and this is what gets me into trouble. You know, it's like, why couldn't you Lord, why does it have to be grief to glory? Why couldn't you set up this world such that it's joy to joy, know, happiness to glory? Like why?

David Heflin (22:37.346)
Mm-hmm.

Lara Silverman (22:51.619)
Why and I don't know if it's because okay god is operating now within our broken world And he's so good that he can turn even that around like is that the message? But it's it's such a difficult doctrine when you look at it you say no god is ordaining this suffering god is telling paul i'm gonna show him how much he has to suffer for my name it's like why lord why But I guess in something that we just don't understand for some reason

God knows I don't know that we need the suffering or it's like maybe the only way to accomplish these eternal purposes. I don't claim to know but yeah.

David Heflin (23:26.85)
Right. Yeah, I appreciate it in your book and even now that you're not trying to overstate something that we know about suffering. You know, what we can say is that God uses suffering in our lives in very Christ-forming ways. And I can look back on my own journey and see how I'm a different person because of the things that he allowed me to go through.

Lara Silverman (23:37.178)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (23:40.567)
Yeah.

David Heflin (23:53.612)
And I will say that it's not a guarantee you're going to be drawn closer to God if you're suffering that that has to be in participation with him and in faithful walk with him. mean, people suffer all the time that actually they become bitter or they turn away from God. But that's why I think that idea of faithful lament is so important because if not, you're just kind of bottling all that up and trying to just give the again to use the Sunday school to pick not picking on Sunday school teachers, but to kind of the Sunday school answers, right? When we're

Lara Silverman (24:19.384)
Yeah.

David Heflin (24:22.346)
then eventually a person can just turn away because they realize those are not, they're not real answers. and so we, we need to be able to be, authentic. we need to be able to be real and even angry or whatever we're going through and not try to think we're going to be able to have a concrete answer. what was it that you said? Hold your convictions loose. can't remember what you said something about holding. Yeah. Yeah. Something like that. Sort of this, this idea that, okay, we.

Lara Silverman (24:28.56)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (24:45.892)
hold your convictions loose!

David Heflin (24:51.746)
believe this is what God is doing, but we don't know for sure. And we have to be subject and willing to adjust our frame of mind.

Lara Silverman (25:01.763)
Yeah, absolutely.

David Heflin (25:05.77)
So we kind of talked about this in the beginning. Well, I think maybe it was before we were recording, but this idea that, okay, this is a heavy book. It's going to need some injections of humor, which are not just occasional. They are mixed throughout, including a lot of self-deprecating humor too. And so it keeps it from getting overwhelmingly heavy because these are very overwhelming heavy things.

Lara Silverman (25:31.79)
Yeah.

David Heflin (25:32.808)
But it's also important and you, this is probably one of the more encouraging parts for me about joy and living in the moment or living your life, even maybe not even when you don't know what's gonna happen, but because you don't know what's gonna happen, you embrace that moment with joy and particularly in your marriage with Matt and the time that you had, you guys really did live it up. You really embraced that to the fullest. how.

How was that and why was that important to you?

Lara Silverman (26:04.209)
Sure, so one of the main themes in my memoir, which you're touching upon is the idea that the Lord gave me, which was having joy in grief. And the Lord made that lesson extremely explicit to me, just nonstop. mean, sorrowful, but rejoicing, right? Give thanks in all circumstances. Paul and Silas singing in prison. I mean, that's another key theme. So it's not like the New Testament just says suffer, suffer, suffer, suffer.

No, the corollary is the lord it calls us to have joy in the suffering a because it's doing something even if you can't see it, which is the hard part we have to cut our pride down but b because god because god Wants us to have joy. He is the god of joy. He invented joy He invented laughter. He invented beauty and so I think he's saying look I know i'm letting you go through these hard things But I want to give you the one of my friends told me a phrase once

David Heflin (26:38.094)
Mm-hmm.

Lara Silverman (26:56.763)
She's like, God wants to give you sprinkles of joy. Yes, there's the grief, but if you look for those sprinkles, you'll find them. And I found that abundantly true in my life, and especially that one year of marriage with Matt. I like I say in my memoir, we basically squeezed in so much. I mean.

we hosted a Haiti fundraiser because Matt was on a Haiti missions team and he would preach in Haiti. He was also the youth leader for those listening at our church. But we hosted a Haiti fundraiser where we raised $13,000. We did two jazz performances at church because I'm a jazz singer and Matt plays flute. And these were incredibly difficult to get to, by the way, because I can't get in a car without my

David Heflin (27:25.518)
Mm-hmm.

Lara Silverman (27:39.975)
pain astronomically shooting ups, but the Lord was with us the whole way. He equipped us to do these things in one year. I mean, we even recorded a film. I mean, you have to read my memoir, but God allowed us to tap into our talents to say, look, you're not useless just because you're on a bed, Laura. You're not useless, Matt, because you're dying of cancer. No.

I want you to live and live abundantly because even the day you die, will live immediately. You'll be in the presence of the Lord. You'll be living more than we're living here. So it's like once you realize that you're not scared of death, it almost helps you to live more joyously because you're like, well, if I'm never going to die, why not live today? Like, why not embrace the abundant life Christ has for me? I know it sounds extreme, but there's a famous quote that it's like those who are not scared to die are not scared to live.

Because you just have nothing to lose. You know the Lord's got you. He's trying to give you joy because you know your suffering has purpose and that's how you wake up every morning.

David Heflin (28:31.246)
Hmm.

David Heflin (28:40.076)
Yeah, that's an awesome perspective. And I know it's a hard one perspective. mean, you went through a lot of things before you could really begin to see it that way, which kind of then goes back to the idea of what God is revealing and teaching us through our suffering. But I really appreciated that. I'm a person who struggles with stress and worrying about things I can't control. And in looking at things,

Lara Silverman (28:49.017)
Yeah. Yeah.

Lara Silverman (29:04.838)
totally.

David Heflin (29:08.362)
ahead of me instead of living in the moment almost like it's robbing from the moment because I'm looking I'm worried about something that's next week or whatever. That's such wisdom that again has been hard won and I think though Jesus teaches it when he says you know don't worry about tomorrow because today has enough trouble of its own well you know all about that each day has enough trouble of its own anyone living with chronic pain chronic illness can

Lara Silverman (29:16.283)
Totally.

Lara Silverman (29:29.872)
Yeah.

David Heflin (29:37.706)
certainly relate to that and many other types of suffering too. But yeah, was so good and so helpful, I think, to me to try to remember, reflect and retrain myself to, with God's help, to live in the moment, to enjoy what God has given you right then. And because of this eternal perspective, which we'll talk a little bit more about in a moment, before we get to that eternal perspective, there's something else that was kind of in your day-to-day life that

was pretty remarkable. you know, it's this idea that you would ask God a question, often in frustration or anger, pain. And then like immediately, you would open up your devotional app and there would be a scripture or the theme itself was like literally what you had just asked. And then it was like God would confirm that to you multiple times over through people who would text you maybe the same verse or the same

Lara Silverman (30:16.242)
yeah.

David Heflin (30:36.45)
theme or send you a, you know, some kind of message, video or a phone call or whatever that would just, and it was really amazing. Cause cause so the first couple of times I read that in your book, I mean, I okay, that could be coincidence. But by the time I read it like 15, 20 times, I was thinking, okay, God is really doing something in this situation. It's just can't be coincidence. And so tell me a little bit about that. Tell me about how those moments helped sustain you through your worst struggles and fears.

Lara Silverman (30:50.467)
Right.

Lara Silverman (31:06.439)
I mean, you know, I'm giggling because I feel like some people who read my memoir are probably like, all right, is this made up? Like God doesn't, you know, snap of your fingers. But I'm telling you, David, so I'm a lawyer, OK? And since I was 16, I've kept these evidence journals of God's goodness where I write down every time the Lord or the Holy Spirit kind of nudges me or speaks to me. You know, yeah, sometimes we get it wrong. I've gotten many things wrong, you know, in terms of, OK, was that just a coincidence?

But I have faithfully recorded and especially during these eight years of suffering, you could imagine because these things sustain me, I made sure to keep track. And when I was strictly bedridden, I had my mom write it down. You know, if the Lord impressed something on my heart, I would call my mom in and she would write it on a chair. I I put the poor woman through so much. But my point is I have the receipts. So everything I put in my book was just completely true. mean, I was trying to show.

honestly how responsive God was and he you know when you're suffering, know, Psalm 34 says he draws near to the brokenhearted it is absolutely true like Even this morning. I'll be honest like I was crying last night, you know just about you know, a lot of different things You know just missing mad and why is this your will and you know, it's it's up and down right? You know, I have accepted but it's it's difficult and This morning, you know two friends sent me the same verse.

David Heflin (32:10.222)
Mm-hmm.

Lara Silverman (32:31.311)
trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. And then I opened one of my devotionals and that's the verse of the day. And I'm like, was it the Abba? Yeah. And so the Lord, I know it sounds like a genie or whatever, but I'm telling you that's how the Lord speaks to me. He doesn't speak the same way with everyone, but I just, I, he knows I needed that because I'm sort of analytical and unless I see the evidence, I will question is that you Lord or not? And so he knows how to comfort us and to answer your question.

David Heflin (32:38.702)
That's just crazy.

Lara Silverman (33:00.877)
If he had not done that, if he was not present with me in the suffering in that way, I don't think I'd be a Christian today because when you're on a bedpan with your brain spinning and you've lost your career and your health and I mean, you just, unless the Lord Almighty is with you and comforting you, I don't think you could get out of that a believer. And so I'm testifying to you that Christ is real. I don't know if anyone out there is listening like.

The God of the universe wants a relationship with us and he speaks into it when you're in suffering just as the Bible promises.

David Heflin (33:34.774)
Yeah, yeah. Well, thank you. It really is an amazing part of your story. And I think the point that God knows how to get through to each of us and what we need is really key. You know, if someone comes away, you know, maybe they feel bad because, that that God doesn't do that way for me. That's not the point. The point is that God is with us in and meets us where we are in the way that will speak to us. And so.

Lara Silverman (33:59.559)
Can I ask you how he speaks to you and your wife, maybe? Like, maybe you can give an example for the listener who doesn't get those sort of confirmations or whatever.

David Heflin (34:07.31)
Sure, Well, I mean, I think for me it's been more through, you know, other people in my life when, I'll give an example, you know, when we were deciding whether I was going to go full time with Broken Amendment, because I was a full time pastor, preacher, you know, for over 20 years. I was just, Broken Amendment was strictly volunteer. And I was, I started it, but I was having a hard time maintaining it because it was growing.

And I remember one time we went to this retreat that was for ministers and their wives. And it was just for that. was just to bless those people. You had to be nominated to go. I don't even know who nominated us, but we got to go on this all expense retreat. And in that retreat, we talked to various different couples. Like you would sit with someone different at every meal. And then you had your big kind of group gatherings too.

And every person would told us while we were there that, it really seems like your future is here in broken and mended. It really seems like that's where God is directing you. And so we left that meeting with our timetable, so to speak, for that transition, greatly accelerated because it became clear to us through what God was saying to these other people that that's what God wanted us to do. And then he's...

confirmed it in so many other ways too in the process. Like, so now you got me started, but I was just thinking about another situation where, okay, we told our church we're going to be making this transition and we have $2,000 in the broken and minted bank account. We just got back from Kenya. So we spent a lot of money there and so we don't have hardly any money in the bank account. And so we've got to start fundraising from, you know, from scratch. And through a source that

actually this source ended up connecting us to Arn and Trina. But through this other source of another nonprofit closing its doors, we ended up getting a $17,000 check that we didn't even ask for it. mean, other than asking God to help us, I mean, it wasn't a place we sent a letter or knew anything about it. And so there's just those kinds of things, events and people that seem to affirm that if I keep taking the next faithful step,

David Heflin (36:28.142)
that God will show me how to take the next one. And so that's, that's kind of, don't, and I'm making it sound like I'm always in that mentality. Sometimes I'm not, sometimes I'm fretting about, you know, and I have to, yeah, but that's, that's kind of how it's worked for me.

Lara Silverman (36:38.456)
Absolutely.

Lara Silverman (36:42.605)
That's beautiful. I love that. I mean, it's so true. I mean, the body is Christ, you know, hands and feet and he speaks through them. I've experienced that. I just think that's so fantastic.

David Heflin (36:53.516)
Yes, it is. is. And emphasis here is God is with us. God is with us. He's promised to be with us. When we talked about, what does the Bible promise regarding suffering and what it doesn't? Well, one of the things we can say is the absolute promise that Jesus will be with us even to the end of the age, as he tells us in the Great Commission. And that doesn't mean we'll always feel that, but those moments are certainly helpful.

Lara Silverman (36:57.616)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (37:16.41)
yeah.

Lara Silverman (37:20.367)
And can I just say like for the person who's out there, who's maybe rolling their eyes saying like, you know, easy for you, you know, the Lord's give, you know, speaking into you. feel told, mean, I, you know, I this, I'm talking after eight years of, you know, I'm not trying to be on my soap box. I'm trying to just, I'm giving you the Lara after eight years being in the fire. Right. And so I, it has taken me much, many tears, a lot of sweat, a lot of theological wrestling.

David Heflin (37:42.456)
Right.

Lara Silverman (37:48.665)
A lot of, you know, times where I didn't feel like the Lord was speaking, but then, you know, after a while he would speak, right? Like he let me wrestle. So if he's leaving you in a space where you just feel like, my gosh, he's abandoned me or this and that, like, know that he's not like he's, I mean, he is always there, whether we feel him or not. You know, obviously for the book, I had to, I wanted to share my testimony of the moments where

the Lord met me, but it's not like he was speaking every day. Like he wants us to trust him also. So I just want to say that, you know, I don't want to be preachy. I've come at you from after a long wrestling period.

David Heflin (38:26.414)
Right. Yeah, I appreciate that. think that's well said. And I think, you know, one of the things again, I enjoyed about the book was that the illogical wrestling that you would have it out with, with Matt back and forth and the different ways you guys approach, you know, things. But with that, one of the really important things I know that Matt always emphasized and including even when you would bring up your bag of basic goodies, it blessings? Yeah.

Lara Silverman (38:52.311)
blessings. Yeah, the bag of basic blessings.

David Heflin (38:55.092)
Yeah, so we bring that up is let's focus on the eternal. And you mentioned that even while ago when you talked about even the moment the day that you die in the next moment, you're you're living forever. So tell us, tell me about that, how that helped you through then. How does it continue to help you now?

Lara Silverman (39:07.909)
right?

Lara Silverman (39:17.045)
I mean, so when Matt came into my life, he was the one that you're right, that really gave me that framework of the only three things remain faith, hope and love. so putting my eggs in being a Supreme court justice and, you know, career, I mean, those things are good, right? If the Lord calls you to them, but like they will not last in the sense that God is trying to form our character, which frankly, I never really understood before Matt kind of drilled it into me. Like we really are.

trying to be conformed into Christ-like beings, whatever that looks like. so the more important things to focus on every day in the grit and in the fire is like, how is this changing me for eternity? And that's what I'm gonna take beyond this life. Whether I had, I mean, I don't wanna sound trite, whether I had four kids or zero kids or whatever, all that matters is God's calling and purpose for your life because that's what he will use.

And I think redeem in eternity. Like I think our, let me put it this way. God is impressed upon my heart that our stories do not end on this side. He has made that very clear to me. And I never really realized that. In other words, for there is all of eternity where God is going to redeem our suffering, where God is going to show us purposes. I think that we never even imagined. And so that's when our faith will become sight, when we will actually

you know, maybe understand, I'm not sure how much the Lord will tell us, but I think that, you know, where Paul says, now I know in part, then I will know fully, you know, that kind of gives us an indication of, okay, in eternity, a lot of these stories, I think we're gonna see the redemption arc. You know how like here, you know, the Lord heals someone of cancer and there's a beautiful redemption arc and everyone's praising the Lord. Well, I asked Matt many times, well, what about the story where the person dies? You know, it's like, how is that?

David Heflin (40:48.654)
Mm-hmm.

Lara Silverman (41:08.345)
And Matt said, you know, in his wisdom, and I think, you know, it's biblically based, it's like, we can trust God for those stories, the tragedies also, because God is going to redeem them in eternity. Like Elizabeth Elliot said, God's story never ends in ashes. And I am convinced in that, isn't that a powerful quote? And her husband was murdered, you know, he was a missionary. But so the point is, if you have an eternal perspective,

you realize like this isn't the end game. Even if I die tomorrow, like who cares? Like God is God and I will be alive and he's gonna tie up the story so I can trust him.

David Heflin (41:43.266)
Yeah, we can trust them. Thank you for that. It's a theme that is so strong in the book and one that, you know, honestly, we see your growth in, you know, in that particular, you know, area and that encourages ours. So thank you again for sharing that. We did talk about, you know, sometimes friends, family members, well-meaning though they may be, they may say something that, you know, it's not very helpful, but on the other hand,

Lara Silverman (41:49.349)
Yeah.

Lara Silverman (41:55.413)
yeah, I mean...

David Heflin (42:10.286)
I know and could tell in your story that community, friends, family, church members, that they were a part of walking with you through this. So how important is that in your experience and how did this help you and Matt?

Lara Silverman (42:28.875)
I mean, we wouldn't have survived without both of our parents, our sets of parents, our siblings and the church. I mean, I can't tell you how many meals those Armenian women at the church cooked for us. mean, Armenian women show their love through food, right? I mean, but I'm, you know, being facetious, but it's true. It's God, his hands and feet were literally the church, even in hospice. mean, people sending letters, people sending emails, people sending texts. I mean, it was almost like,

God's hands were moving through his body so we never felt alone. Whether it was a Zoom call with our pastor once a week or friends, you know, sending random gifts, the youth group sending Matt, you know, little gift cards and little cards encouraging him. I mean, just nonstop. And it just shows you like, God, I think, gives these people the compassion. And so he's really working through them.

David Heflin (43:01.87)
Hmm.

David Heflin (43:23.778)
I loved reading about the Haiti mission team and how much they encouraged both of you and especially Matt even all the way through the end. so that was really cool. And I also just, I guess a little bit of aside from that, but I just appreciated that even toward the end of his life, Matt continued to record devotionals and to write devotional that he was still trying to bless whoever he could as long as he could. And that was really cool.

Lara Silverman (43:45.991)
off

Lara Silverman (43:52.237)
This is what I'm saying, David. One of the lessons God taught me, even while I was writing this book, God reminded me he was like being productive till the day you die. Like in other words, purpose in the pain, purpose till the last second. Again, if you're going to live in eternity, what is death? Death has been defeated. death, where is your sting? I mean, it flips our whole perspective. Even Christians are scared to die when we shouldn't be. I mean, I know it's easy to talk on my soapbox, but I've been through grief.

David Heflin (44:18.242)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right, right.

Lara Silverman (44:21.605)
the last eight years. So I'm just, if you realize that you think, why can't I record a devotional? Why can't Matt, you know, preach in hospice, which he literally did. I mean, it's just, it turns the whole game upside down. It shows you how God really has defeated the worst enemy.

David Heflin (44:38.04)
Wow, yeah, it's powerful. Thank you. Well, let me ask as we get ready to wrap up, how are you praying that your story, which is also Matt's story, and this memoir will help others? What are you hoping to see? And of course, I know a to testimony is a big part of, know, a theme that comes up a whole lot. But how are you, what are you hoping to see? What are you praying to see?

Lara Silverman (45:03.875)
I think I'm praying to see.

Well, I'll circle back to what we said earlier. I mean, there are many themes in my book about, like you said, turning test to testimony and, you know, how God uses suffering. But I think what I want people to walk away with is you can have joy in your grief. I mean, that was the theme at my wedding, the first Isaiah 43 20. The Lord gives us streams of refreshing water in our desert times of suffering. And I think and that's, you know, God brought me and Matt together, even though he had cancer. I was bedridden. God gave us as gifts to one another.

to get married amidst our valley, even though Matt was at stage four cancer. In other words, God gave us the gift of joy through one another's love. And so if you can take away anything, it's this idea that God wants you to have that joy, to find that joy, even in the day to day, the pain, the spinning. mean, I'm gonna, just for context, I'm gonna basically slam back down on that bed the minute I get off this podcast. So for the listeners, don't think I'm on a soapbox. I'm telling you, I'm still in pain every day, nonstop, chronic, and yet,

David Heflin (45:59.16)
Right.

Lara Silverman (46:06.553)
A God has enabled me to find those sprinkles of joy every day, whether it's doing comedy on Instagram for 10 seconds or whatever it is, he wants to give that to you too, so that you remember that your grief and your pain on this side of eternity are not the end. So if you take that joy now, it kind of reminds you that your grief is going to be turned into joy. There's a verse that says your grief will be turned into joy. I think it's in Matthew. I can't remember, but yeah.

David Heflin (46:34.35)
Yeah, well, thank you. And that is definitely a strong theme that resonated with me throughout, as I mentioned earlier, and just how it kind of helps me, retrains my mind, helps me to refocus, just to be in the moment with the people that you love, to enjoy the life of God, even, and especially, when we're hurting, that we need that so that we remember, like you said, that's not the story, it's not the end of the story, and that God is going to

Lara Silverman (46:56.587)
Yeah

David Heflin (47:04.13)
redeem all this in eternity in his own way. And so, yeah, thank you so much, Laura, for being with us on In the Seams. I know people are really gonna be blessed by this conversation. And I wanna reiterate, you know, the book, I'll link it, I'm assuming Amazon, maybe some other places where they can get it, but I'll link it in the show notes where you can go and get the book. It's available and I highly recommend it.

And also just remind you that you can go to our website, brokenamended.org. You can find the registration. It'll be linked directly in our show notes, but also you can go to the website and find the registration for our virtual event coming up on October 18th. You can also find out about our support groups there and try to get connected. If you're feeling alone, if you're feeling isolated, I think part of what's come out of this conversation is the importance of community, of togetherness and

Broken and Mended is trying to provide some of that for maybe people that aren't as fortunate in terms of friends and family as I have been, sounds like as you have been, Laura. And there are some people that really do feel alone and we want them to know they're not alone. And so you go to brokenandmended.org to find out more about that. You can send a message there, it will come to me. I'd be glad to answer it. But we just thank you for being with us on In the Seams. And again, Laura, thank you.

Lara Silverman (48:17.79)
you

Lara Silverman (48:28.878)
Thank you.

David Heflin (48:30.53)
Alright, well until next time, may God bless you and in all the ways that you serve Him.