Intro to Interview:

David Heflin (00:01.23)
I want to welcome you back to In the Seams. And today I had a conversation with Glenn Newton, which I've already recorded. So I'm recording this after the fact, even though it's the introduction, but to kind of give you a preview of what's going to be coming in that he's going to be talking about a extremely painful disease. Some consider it the most painful of the types of chronic illnesses, a chronic pain that you can have called trigeminal neuralgia. He's currently in remission and that's part of his story.

And I won't steal his thunder. want you to be able to hear it from him. But this is a little bit different because Glenn is on our board. He is also a consultant for us as a fundraiser. And so he's very and he's also been a group leader for Broken and Mended support groups and has hosted a support group in his church for several years. And so and we're having a seminar in his church coming up. So I know Glenn very well. And there's been a lot of crossover in our lives.

Broken and Mended has kind of brought us together in that way. And so I'm, I'm excited to have him and it's good for maybe our audience to get to know some of the people that are working behind the scenes with Broken and Mended. is certainly not just me. You know, I started Broken and Mended, but we have a board now, I believe of eight people, plus myself, executive director. We have other volunteers. have obviously support group leaders and all across the world, particularly in Africa, here in the U S and.

You know, working on it in other places as well. And so there's, there's a lot of people that help out with broken and admitted. I'm very grateful for, you get to know one of those people today a little, a little bit better. Well, probably for the first time for our listeners, you know, of course, get to know his, get to know him and his story. And so I'm to link a few things in the, in the show notes that were mentioned in the episode as well. maybe a couple of different, you know, books that were mentioned. and.

And of course, I think I'm going to link our event that we're going to be having in Florida as well. So you can find all that there. You don't have to try to write it down while you're listening, especially don't do that if you're driving. But this is a very important story. We talk a lot about lament. We talk about anger with God when things are just so bad we can't imagine living another day. And we talk a little bit about how God got Glenn through that and how he was able to do that even as a preacher and as a fundraiser for a full-time fundraiser for a

David Heflin (02:24.974)
another nonprofit that he had been involved with before he got involved with Broken and Mended. And so just a lot of things from his story that I think people will be able to glean and in some way be able to relate to it. We talk about pain, pain scales, the subjectiveness of pain, how someone's four might be someone else's 10, you know, and certainly vice versa. I think there's an important point to say that in no way are we diminishing anyone else's pain.

Glenn has experienced a great deal of pain and probably more than most of us. I'm going to say all of us, but probably more than most of us, myself included, that deal with chronic pain and chronic illness. But he also found some relief from that. And not everyone finds relief from whatever they're going through. fact, most of us don't. And so I'm thankful that Glenn has been able to finally find that relief. But what he went through has been, was tremendously difficult. And what we're encouraging people to realize is that whether you have chronic pain or not,

You don't know exactly what someone else is going through. And at the same time, those of us that are going through a great deal of pain, we don't want to say anything that is diminishing to what you're going through. And so I think it's about allowing people to tell their own stories and to say that, hey, I may not know exactly what you're going through, but I love you. I'm here with you. And let me know how I can pray for you and how I can be of service to you. I think that's the kind of heart that we want to cultivate in what we're doing with Broken Amended.

So, okay, the interview was a little bit longer than usual and I don't want to go any further with the introduction because I want you to be able listen to the whole interview and I hope it is a blessing to you.

Interview Begins: 

David Heflin (00:01.494)
Okay, I'm glad to have Glenn Newton on In the Seams. This is a little bit different in terms of the relationship I normally have with the people I interview. I've known Glenn now for several years, know a little bit about his story, but that's part of the reason why I asked you, Glenn, to come on this podcast because I think it's a story that's had some pretty pronounced up and downs.

You know, and so it's it's unique in that way, I think. And you've obviously dealt with some pretty significant pain. And I want to say at the onset here that Glenn is on the board of Broken and Mended. And we'll speak a little bit more about how he came into contact with Broken and Mended in the process of this conversation as we go forward. But Glenn, welcome to In the Seams. I'm so glad that you've joined us today.

Glenn Newton (00:53.062)
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

David Heflin (00:55.726)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, I thought we'd just get into it here because when I first met you, was that a retreat that you were helping host and I was setting up? Yeah, yeah, it was.

Glenn Newton (01:05.124)
Yeah, I was trying to remember that today. Yeah, I think that's where we met.

David Heflin (01:10.508)
Yeah. And so we had talked before that, but that's first time I met you. And I remember you telling me there that you, your first experience with chronic pain had to do with your back. That lasted about 10 years, if I remember correctly. and you can clarify if I'm wrong about that, but I just want to begin by letting you tell that part of your experience. What was that experience like for you and how did it impact you? How did it change your, your outlook and everything?

Glenn Newton (01:20.635)
was it.

Glenn Newton (01:35.998)
well, actually my back pain started back when I was 33. So, and I didn't have surgery till I was 52. So about 19 years, actually, I dealt with back pain, of course, progressively getting worse and worse and worse. you know, and, and I guess during that time, I really learned what chronic pain was. You know, I, I had pulled muscles in my back. I used to work construction and I've had back pain before after

a hard day of putting on sheet metal roofs, which is what I did before ministry. But, you know, there were several times in that nearly 20 year stint that I couldn't even walk or sit upright. I remember one time, I guess it was about 2015, I had bought tickets with my kids to go see my favorite band, Kansas, in Pleasant, California. And

The morning of the show, my back just decided, you're not going anywhere tonight. my kids went without me and they're calling me and letting me hear it. And it's not that I wished I was at the concert, I wish I was with my kids because a couple of them were experiencing the band I love for the very first time and I didn't get to be there. That's frustrating. I guess, how did it...

David Heflin (02:49.623)
Right.

David Heflin (02:55.8)
That's hard.

Glenn Newton (03:01.892)
you know, how did that experience change me? or what was it like? It was frustrating. It really was because for a while they didn't know what was wrong. So when I say a while, I mean, most of the time, I was on muscle relaxers and insads and making weekly, biweekly chiropractor visits. And then it escalated into

trigger point injections, nerve ablations, epidurals, and all this to try to solve the pain and it never really did. So finally in 2020, I decided that I needed to go to a doctor and I didn't have a back doctor here in Florida since we had moved back. And he did x-rays and MRIs and then he did something called a flexation x-ray where they have you bend, you know, a little bit and

take pictures as you've been. And he said something I wasn't expecting to hear. He said, I wasn't expecting to hear. said, well, Glenn, you don't have a problem in your spine. And I'm like, wait, what? That's what they've been telling me for 19 years. He said, no, no, I'd kill for your spine. I play golf. It helped my game. He said, your problem is that you have SI joint dysfunction and your SI joint is moving.

and it has caused that sciatic nerve to be perforated. So they did a surgery where they went in and they cut out that section of the perforation and let it grow back normally. And they screwed down my SI joint to my hip so there would be no more movement. And since then, you know, other than occasional old man arthritis back pain,

David Heflin (04:31.758)
Mmm.

Glenn Newton (04:56.038)
I've been in pretty good shape. I've moved a couple times and been able to lift things and it just was a night and day difference.

David Heflin (05:07.608)
Yeah, that's pretty amazing. You said that surgery was in 2020. Okay. I'm not a hundred percent sure this is true, but I think it's true that I first met you in 2022. So really when I met you, you hadn't had that long that you have been without that pain that you had been living with for 19 years. So it had been pretty recent. And you mentioned really kind of finding out what chronic pain was.

Glenn Newton (05:12.058)
Yes.

Glenn Newton (05:31.013)
Yeah.

David Heflin (05:37.39)
Did that impact the way that you saw suffering in others?

Glenn Newton (05:41.67)
Um, it did it, it didn't, you know, and even the, you know, my last, uh, illness, which I'm sure you're to ask me about impacted that even more. Um, but yeah, it, made me more sympathetic to people with back pain. Um, it also made me, uh, and this is, this is bad. Um, it

David Heflin (05:52.333)
Yes.

Glenn Newton (06:09.934)
It made me a little frustrated sometimes when people, when you know, I'd be laying on my back and not able to get out of bed and someone would call me and say, you know, I pulled a muscle once and I completely understand back pain. And it's like, I love you. I love you so much, brother. Thank you for calling. But, and I didn't say that, but it's just kind of one of those.

David Heflin (06:25.858)
Yeah, yeah.

David Heflin (06:31.168)
Right.

Glenn Newton (06:36.432)
This is not a pulled muscle. Pulled muscles hurt. Don't misunderstand. They hurt. most of the time, know, perforated sciatic nerve is pretty ugly.

David Heflin (06:42.318)
But they heal most of the time.

David Heflin (06:48.91)
a pretty different story. Well, and unfortunately, I know that was not your last encounter with chronic pain. In recent years, you've dealt with something I think, if I've understood you correctly, you would even describe as more painful than what you went through with your back.

Glenn Newton (07:05.938)
I would have killed your back pain during this.

David Heflin (07:09.92)
Yeah, that's amazing because back pain can be one of the most severe kind of pains there is too. This is called trigeminal neuralgia. Did I say that last word correctly? Okay. Yeah, so it's a... You call it what?

Glenn Newton (07:19.14)
That is correct. Yeah, trigeminal nerve. You can call it TN from here on if that helps you. You can call it TN for here on if that helps, because that's what most people call it that have it.

David Heflin (07:28.46)
All right. TN for we'll say that for, yeah, I understand. have ankylosing spondylitis. And, when I have to say it a bunch of times, I just start calling it AS. The only downside of that is that sometimes people forget they mix it up with ALS, which is a very different thing, you know, but anyway, yeah. So we'll call it TN during the conversation. It'll, it'll save me from getting all tongue tied. and it's, it's pretty, it's a bad deal and

Glenn Newton (07:44.698)
Hello again.

David Heflin (07:57.262)
Once you, if you could tell us kind of what that is and what that experience was like for you. And then we'll talk about the resolution in a moment or where you are today, which is thankfully better than you were. But just tell us kind of how that came on and how that impacted you.

Glenn Newton (08:17.188)
Well, you know, what was that experience like? It stunk, man. It was like seventh level of hell pain. It was awful. You know, I really struggled during that time. And trigeminal neuralgia, what it is, is it's a disorder that causes extreme facial nerve pain. The trigeminal nerve is what controls the feelings

and you know all the all the feelings in your face you have one on the right side you have one on the left side my problem was on my left side and when i would have one of those attacks if you can just picture like right where your ear canal is if you come out right where your sideburn is if you're a guy and you know just barely on skin for a woman just kind of picture

a spider web going out from that and in that spider web going out are 220 volt electric shocks into your head. It's known as the most painful disease known to mankind currently and it is also nicknamed the suicide disease because you know it's not a

It's not a deadly disease, it's not a terminal disease, but in some sense it is because anywhere between, you know, every year anywhere between 15 and 20 percent of the people diagnosed with it take their own lives because it's just, and I'm in a support group online and I've seen people kind of disappear from the group and I'm just afraid to ask what happened, you know.

David Heflin (09:57.898)
That's an incredible ratio. Wow.

Glenn Newton (10:12.55)
because there are people on there that say, I just can't take this anymore. I don't know what to do. I'm at my wits end. I'm about to give up. And that's just the trigeminal and algal support group. it's not a faith-based group, but there's a lot of prayer that goes on in there. it's rough to see all that. yeah, it was absolutely...

awful. And again, it took me a while to figure out what I had. You know, they, they were, they, at first they thought it was something to do with my teeth or my jaw or TMJ. And then they thought it was, you know, cluster migraines or something like that. And, and none of that was what it was. So finally, I went to UF health and I got the right kind of,

David Heflin (10:47.394)
Yeah.

Glenn Newton (11:12.246)
MRI took them forever to get it right, but they finally got it right and By the time they got it right. I had finally heard back from the Mayo Clinic who I had called originally but couldn't get in for six months and it took six months for UF Health to get my MRI right so I decided yeah, I think I'll just go to Mayo Clinic, you know, it's closer we live 20 minutes away

David Heflin (11:36.418)
Right.

Glenn Newton (11:39.706)
I was driving to Gainesville from St. Augustine. That's a long drive to go to the doctor. So we went to, we went to the Mayo clinic and, it just took a while to figure out what it was. When I finally got the diagnosis was two days before Christmas, 2023, and I had been suffering with it since 2022. so I finally got the diagnosis.

in late 23. And I was just glad to know what I had, you know? It's kind of like, I think anyone with chronic pain can understand that when you don't know what your pain's coming from. And then all of sudden you get the answer. You're happy to hear something. But when I started researching what trigeminal neuralgia was and some of the statistics and all that, it was very scary. It was very scary.

David Heflin (12:16.108)
Right.

Glenn Newton (12:39.034)
And I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy. I wouldn't. I wouldn't wish that. We both are in ministry. We've both been hurt in ministry by people who were supposed to be our brothers in Christ. I wouldn't wish it on them. I wouldn't wish it on anyone, you know? Because it just, there's no way I can even make anyone understand.

David Heflin (12:43.618)
Right.

Glenn Newton (13:07.034)
how painful it is. But one thing I can say during that time, as far as the experience goes, my wife and I grew so much closer. I mean, we're close, but we've always been close. But seeing her come to my side during that, and here's the thing about trigeminal neuralgia, it's nothing that you can see on the outside. All of a sudden, I'm just like,

My face is crunched up and I'm in the fetal position, know, position screaming. But I don't look any different. And some people, you know, I've talked to people with TN whose spouses don't believe them, you know. And that's one of the things with chronic pain. Some people just don't believe you. And my wife always did. And she stood beside me and she helped me get the help I need. And finally,

David Heflin (13:43.214)
You're right.

Glenn Newton (14:06.048)
August of last year, I'm getting ready to celebrate my first anniversary in 25 days of my microvascular decompression surgery, which is a fancy way of saying brain surgery. They took out, they cut out part of my skull behind my ear. They went in, they found the trigeminal nerve and there was a blood vessel that had a loop down on top of it and was just sitting there. So when that blood vessel would

you know, move faster or something would happen that would cause that blood vessel to constrict or expand. Then it sent me into an attack and I was having as many at one point, David, I was having as many as 20 or 30 attacks a day. And these attacks last anywhere between 20 seconds and two minutes. And even sometimes they come in clusters where you get a 20 second attack, then you get a 20 second break and then you get a 20 second attack and then you get a two minute break and then you get another attack.

Those had me in the hospital several times. But they did this surgery and were able to get that nerve. They wrapped my nerve in surgical teflon and now the blood vessel there is not impinging upon it anymore. And I have been trigeminal neuralgia attack free for, like I said, 25 days short of a year.

David Heflin (15:36.238)
Thank God for that.

Glenn Newton (15:36.386)
It's just, it's miraculous. mean, I just, it's unbelievable. The fact that the pain is just basically gone and now I'm in remission. Doesn't mean it won't ever come back, but my doctor said that my case, can almost guarantee it's not going to come back because there was no tangling of the nerve and the vein, which sometimes happens. It was just laying on top of it and he was able to separate it.

And unless something happens to that Teflon, which it shouldn't, I should be good.

David Heflin (16:12.61)
Well, now for others that have TN and they've not had this surgery, I take it by the way you're explaining it that everyone's situation is unique and so there may be some people that have TN that this surgery would not help. Is that correct?

Glenn Newton (16:27.367)
this surgery is,

Glenn Newton (16:36.262)
There are some people that won't help but you don't know until you do it. And that's really the only thing that can be said about that. You don't know until you do it. Some people it has not helped. Now my doctor had a 95 % success rate and that's pretty good being the national average is like 60%. So he has really good success rate at it. And that's one thing that

David Heflin (16:57.197)
Yeah, that is.

Glenn Newton (17:03.226)
There are so many other treatments for this and I tried several of the treatments and when I went to Mayo Clinic he basically told me why some of the less invasive treatments would not work for me. And so they did this and let me tell you it was a painful recovery but man I'd do it again in a minute. know if my TN came back tomorrow I'd be grateful for the year I've had without the pain.

And I called Dr. Graywall and said, all right, I'm coming back. Get your knife ready. You know, I would, just because that's how bad it is.

David Heflin (17:34.862)
See you.

David Heflin (17:44.056)
Well, and hope that maybe people hearing this, mean, of course, we're not given medical advice, but while we're sharing stories of people who have been through different procedures that have brought about relief, different treatments, we just hope everyone seeks out all their options with their doctors and not to give up because I think it is when people give up that a disease like this can become so much more deadly if you feel hopeless and you feel like there's no way out.

And so we hope at least from this conversation we're having right now, people know, hey, you're not alone. Don't be isolated. Find people, like you said, who will believe you. If we can help at Broken and Mended, brokenandmended.org, look us up and reach out to us. We just don't want people to be alone and be isolated in this. And you are right about having a really fortunate situation with your wife. And of course I've heard, and you have heard all kinds of horror stories about spouses at

even left their spouse, you know, because of chronic illness. And so I have a wife like you do, and I'm very thankful for that. And I recognize that some people have experienced abandonment to go along with their, you know, their chronic situation. So my heart goes out to you if you're in that situation. We still encourage you not to allow yourself to be isolated.

Glenn Newton (19:02.682)
And I would also say this, David, and this isn't medical advice, really. It's just common sense. There are a lot of people, a lot of doctors who do this surgery. There are a few doctors who do this surgery very, very well. Do your research. And if you have to travel, if you have to travel to go to a doctor, I mean, my doctor was great and I'd recommend him to anyone, but

David Heflin (19:21.516)
research.

Glenn Newton (19:32.614)
So if you have to travel to Jacksonville, Florida, travel. There are several places like Mayo Clinic, Cleveland Clinic, and other university hospitals like Stanford that have someone who really, really specializes in this. That's all they do. So that's kind of what you want to find is someone that this is.

about all they do. is their specialty. And you want to ask them what their success rate is. you know, yeah, just I've heard some horror stories about people who had the surgery done and it just wasn't effective. So therefore I would say do your research, find one of the best doctors you can and you have to travel. Go.

David Heflin (20:29.216)
That is good advice. So yeah, I think I appreciate you saying that. And we know there are challenges to that, but we, you know, for some people, maybe financially the travel, whatever it is, but keep praying and seeking away because we just, yeah, we don't want you to give up. Find doctor that can really help you like Glenn is talking about here. I want to go back into part of what you mentioned.

And I want to talk about your relationship with God during this time, but I also want to talk about in terms of ministry as well Because I've done what you've done I've been a preacher for 20 and a half years I was in the pulpit weekly even with ankylosing spondylitis. I in only time I really missed Preaching was when I have surgery recovery or something, you know when I got my hip replaced or you know, something like that

How were you able to continue on with that? How were you able, and you were a principal fundraiser for a ministry at that time as well, and they had expectations. so how were you able to handle that, Lynn?

Glenn Newton (21:29.435)
Yes.

Glenn Newton (21:37.12)
I don't know. Honestly, it was the funniest thing. I preach almost every Sunday and I never had an attack while I was preaching. Ever. I would have one during communion right before I got up to preach sometimes and I would go back to the back and have one right after preaching sometimes. the people at would see me back there while they're doing the closing song and I'm laying on the back row seats.

David Heflin (21:38.562)
Yes.

Glenn Newton (22:05.986)
in a fetal position and you know a couple of them would get up and come over to me if my wife wasn't there and but never it didn't ever happen during the sermon. When I was traveling doing fundraising it did happen a couple of times while I was driving which was scary and but not a lot so I was the worst time was when I was in Dallas and there was nowhere for me to pull over and it was five o'clock traffic.

That's when I was just keeping my eyes open and praying and praying and praying the entire time and luckily it only lasted about 20 seconds. So yeah, that was a scary time. you know, I struggled. I'm not going to lie to you. I struggled during that time with my faith. I really did. It was one of those, God, if I'm going to hurt this bad, why aren't you just taking me home?

David Heflin (22:44.749)
Yeah.

Glenn Newton (23:05.294)
why and you know I prayed way more than three times for that thorn in the flesh to be removed from me you know and and I I believed that and I still believe that if God wanted to take it away miraculously he could have I think the surgery was a miracle for me I think God worked through that surgeon to help me but I struggled with my faith I struggled with anger not it

David Heflin (23:25.762)
Right?

Glenn Newton (23:34.854)
people but at God. It was a season of lament for me like I'd never experienced before. The back pain didn't cause this. The back pain I was able, you sometimes I had to sit down to preach or be standing with a cane, you know, but I never preached with fear that one was going to hit me.

I never had to stand in the pulpit right after having an attack. Kind of angry at God in my mind, but preaching about his love. So there were times I was really in a state of lament. And I think all that came to an end when it was the day before I was supposed to to see Dr. Graywall the first time. It would have been in May.

of 23. I'd seen a neurologist there a couple times, but now they sent me to see the surgeon to see if there was something he could do. so the night before, I'm walking up the stairs with some stuff in my hands. I don't even remember what. And one hit me as I was walking up the stairs. And sometimes they hit me so hard they knocked me down.

and this one did, it knocked me down and I fell down the stairs. And so now my whole body's hurting, my head is screaming and after, my wife's in the shower, my son's got his headset on playing video games, so there's no one that can really come help me. So I just lay there on the steps and I started praying and I said, God, I don't want to meet around the bush with this disease, please.

have the doctor say exactly what I need to do to have this gone. Put in his mouth the words that he needs to say to me, and know God I don't want surgery, I don't, and if it's be your will, I don't want surgery, but if that's what he says, I'll know it's from you. And I went in the next day and he said you need surgery, you need brain surgery. And I said okay, let's do it.

David Heflin (25:57.118)
God had prepared you for that suggestion, recommendation from the doctor. And yeah, yeah, well, I can't imagine, as I said, you know, doing the things that you were doing and about to travel and all that when you're dealing with all that pain. And I think lament and even anger, which lament is often accompanied by anger in Scripture. It's something that

We talk a lot about on this podcast and other broken amended resources as being something that's sorely neglected in our churches and we don't really have a language of what we have. It is in the scripture, but we don't incorporate a language of lament in our worship services. So again, this can make people that are going through what you're going through feel very alone. Maybe like, I'm the only one that feels this way. When that's probably not true. mean, people's diseases may be unique to them, but

Glenn Newton (26:34.8)
Thank you.

Glenn Newton (26:50.318)
Yeah.

David Heflin (26:55.192)
People are suffering and feeling that sense of isolation a lot more than we realize. In my story, I don't know if I ever told on this podcast, but I can recall when I was at my lowest point and I got up to preach a sermon where I finally decided just to make that the sermon where I was telling people, they knew about me going to the Mayo Clinic. They knew about all the stuff I'd been through, but they never heard me speak about what it was doing to me emotionally and spiritually.

And that day, four other people, because I responded to the invitation as well, we, our church, we give a traditional invitation where people can come and confess faith in Christ and be baptized. Or sometimes people just come because they need some special prayers for whatever. We had four other people from our church come to the front that day and ask for prayers for chronic illness and chronic pain. That really is actually what planted the seed to start Broken and Mended because I was their preacher.

and I did not know that they were living with that. I had no idea. And so a lot of people are suffering like this and lament is such an important thing. And individually, we can practice lament, but I always am wanting to think about better ways that we can also do it in our churches. But I appreciate you sharing that part of your story.

Glenn Newton (28:15.27)
think one thing that prepared me for lament is, and I don't know if this was a God thing, but you know I've written about nine books I think, and the one I wrote prior, the one I wrote just prior to this happening is a book called Conversations with God, and it's about lament.

And I wrote it about a year before the TN really started to kick my tail. And I was kind of prepared to lament because of this book I had written about lament. And it's funny that that book means a lot more to me now than when I wrote it. And I'm working on another book now. It's just it's not anywhere near done. I started it before my surgery. I haven't touched it since, but I need to get back at it.

But I've been trying to process it all because I want to go back and redo some of it, but my book is called that I'm working on is called God is Good Even When and it's kind of inspired by the song by Mercy Me Even If. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to finishing that. But yeah, if you're

David Heflin (29:26.241)
even win.

David Heflin (29:34.158)
Even if yeah, yeah, it's a great song

David Heflin (29:41.837)
What if we-

Glenn Newton (29:42.754)
If you're trying to learn to lament, find a book on it. Find a book on lament and let it bless you and help.

David Heflin (29:51.458)
Well, is your book available online? Can people get the, what was it, with God?

Glenn Newton (29:58.062)
Yes, and I think it's on Amazon. I know you can get it directly from the publisher, which is 21st Century Christian and their website is just 21stcc.com. So if anybody would want to purchase it, I think it's like five bucks. It's not expensive.

David Heflin (30:03.597)
Okay.

yeah, okay.

David Heflin (30:17.644)
Well, and I will put a link to it in the show notes as well. So that way people, if they're driving and they heard you just say that and they don't remember, they can come back and find it in the show notes. But now we need more books like that. I haven't read that one, but you've inspired me to want to do so. I have used some of your books before in my Bible classes. We actually taught a Bible class on evangelism using one of your, I think it was just called Go or something like that. so yeah, we preach.

Glenn Newton (30:41.284)
Yeah, yeah. Not my favorite book, but I'm glad you used it.

David Heflin (30:46.54)
But it was useful for us. It really was because it had an approach and philosophy to evangelism that we felt like we get behind. But anyway, that's a little off subject. But the point is we appreciate your work as an author, and I'll make sure we link that conversations with God. And we'll be very interested as you work and finish this other book about even when. Let's talk about your roles with Broken Amendment a little bit and how that all kind of came about. And of course,

Again, I'm familiar with the story and I might even remember some of that initial stuff more than you, but I know we've talked about it a time or two, how you found out about Broken and Mended. But maybe just talk about why this ministry in particular is something that you are now investing yourself into and you might want to just share in what roles you're doing that and why you're doing it.

Glenn Newton (31:42.116)
Well, we met at SOAR. We had talked before then. But when we were talking and you were telling me what the ministry was about before we even met, I think I started asking you how we would go about doing this at the congregation where I ministered, Agape Church Christ. And so I think you've told me we were the first stateside church

Besides the church where you preach, we were the first church to actually start a broken amended group at church. I'm not sure, but I think...

David Heflin (32:18.702)
That's correct. No, that's correct. There was another church about the same time that was trying to start, but they, they got hit with one of those crazy COVID variants right when they were trying to launch their group. And so you were the ones that actually got it launched and you were the first and really one of our longest running one, well, by virtue of being the first course makes you a pretty long running involvement with that support group. Yeah, that's correct.

Glenn Newton (32:27.91)
Good.

Glenn Newton (32:41.87)
And we're going to be starting that group back up in September is the plan. Once everybody gets done traveling, we take the summer off and so we're going to get that back on. But anyway, so we started using it there. I've headed up a couple of groups. The reason I wanted to use it at Adopte is because I look at it as a good outreach tool, you know, that we haven't advertised it very well, which is sad because

I'm in marketing and advertising, but, you know, what I do at Agape is volunteer. That's not a, that's not a full-time ministry position. and sometimes, you know, places we volunteer, we don't quite do as much and it's understandable, but I need to do better about advertising at this time. But, I'm actually going to see if we can host our group somewhere different than the church building, like maybe a local coffee shop.

Our coffee shop in the same plaza has a little meeting room. So I thought about that. I thought about at Chiropractor that I'm really good friends with maybe having it in his lobby, you know, like right after he closes some nights and do that. But it's just been a blessing to us. I was interested in this because at the time I had dealt with chronic pain.

I was starting to feel this chronic pain and didn't know what it was. it just, man, it just was to me, it was like, this is awesome. This is what we need to be doing. And I've been blessed to be more involved in it. And I know that one of the members of our church has been heavily involved in helping print the materials and layout and things like that. So it means a lot to Agape and you know,

few months back you asked me to be a member of the board, which I was incredibly honored to do. And I'm on the finance committee helping specifically with ideas for fundraising and revenue streams and things like that, because this is a ministry that needs

Glenn Newton (35:04.486)
that needs finances because it's just, a brand new startup ministry. David, there any way we can pause for half a second and you can cut this out?

David Heflin (35:16.3)
Yeah, we'll edit it. I'll pause it.

Glenn Newton (35:17.774)
Good night.

David Heflin (35:21.07)
Well, we were talking about you coming on the board and also your role as a consulting financial, you know, for our fundraising and talking about how we needed, you know, as we do need money. And it's always a sensitive thing. And I say this for our listeners sake. We recognize that many of the people we're ministering to have been dealt a heavy blow financially due to medical costs and debt. And so always just say, if you've been blessed,

Glenn Newton (35:29.306)
Yeah.

Glenn Newton (35:46.306)
yeah.

David Heflin (35:49.374)
And you're still in a position where you can help a ministry like ours reach more people. And we're reaching around the world. I would say it's not only the US, but would say it's not even predominantly the US. And so we're reaching around the world in different languages and helping people that even have less support and less medical care than we do here in the States. At least we're in a good position with medical care in this country. Not the financial part of it, but the availability of it is there.

You know, we want to find partners and I mean, person, if they decided to give, you know, a one-time gift of, you know, $25, we'd be thankful for it. If you decided to become a monthly supporter at $10 a month, I mean, it all, it all adds up into us, you know, on our mission. So I usually say something about that at the end, but I thought here's a good opportunity to kind of plug that brokenamended.org and the, and the right hand part of the menu is a button that says donate and you can just go there.

And if God so moves you, please consider that.

Glenn Newton (36:53.199)
I used to work with a man named Dennis Jones at Heritage Christian University and he used to joke at benefit dinners. He said, I want you to remember, no gift is too large. always make me laugh, but when you're talking a nonprofit, that is so true. That is so true. But anyway, yeah, I'm enjoying being on

David Heflin (37:07.759)
It's

Glenn Newton (37:22.886)
the board here I'm gonna be starting back my group for people with nerve pain, my online group for people with nerve pain and trigeminal neuralgia and different kinds of nerve disorders, sciatica, whatever the case is. Because nerve pain's a different bear. Anyone who has nerve pain knows it's a different kind of pain. it's that electric shock feeling you just...

It's just awful. So We'll be starting that back up as well. So I'm I'm really excited to be a part of this ministry

David Heflin (38:02.19)
Well, thank you, Glenn. We are excited that you're a part of it. I wanted to mention, since we're talking about this, and if anybody happens to be listening that is in the St. John, St. Augustine area of Florida, kind of Jacksonville area, that we are going to be hosting a Broken and Mended seminar on Saturday and Sunday. Just kind of looking at my calendar here, September the 13th and 14th. So that's soon.

Glenn Newton (38:12.944)
Jacksonville.

David Heflin (38:29.166)
you know, six weeks or so that we'll all be in Florida and we'll be doing that. And that's just a couple of hours in the morning, I think nine to twelve on a Saturday morning at the Agape Church of Christ. And I don't know if we'll stream it. We may do that. We can figure that out. But certainly if you can. OK, that'd be good to be streaming on the Facebook page of the Agape.

Glenn Newton (38:46.596)
Now it'll all be streamed on our Facebook page.

maybe you can share it onto the broken amended. Yeah.

David Heflin (38:54.07)
website and all that. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, so we'll make it available that way. So even if you're not in the Florida area, you might be able to benefit from that. And then on Sunday morning, in kind of the regular slots, I'll be doing the Bible class and the sermon. And that will kind of be our... So it won't be the full weekend. We've done one of these in Sherman that was from Friday night all the way through Saturday. And I was exhausted. And I'm not saying I wouldn't do that again, but I'm actually kind of grateful that

We'll kind of have this broken up a little bit, but I'm looking forward to being there. want to, and there's a, I'll link the.

Glenn Newton (39:26.278)
Well, we can only go to noon on Saturday because this is Florida and college football season will be going. So we will have no one there after noon.

David Heflin (39:38.412)
That's right. Yeah. College football season is hard to beat at any with anything. and so I, yeah, I get it. well, in any case, I will put a link, to the, our event page for that event, particular event in the show notes, and you can find out more about that. So, I think that's, and that's something that maybe also could provide a little spark for the idea of resuming your support group as well. Kind of, you know, kind of a rally almost for that as well.

Glenn Newton (40:02.79)
Exactly.

David Heflin (40:06.574)
Glenn, I'm going to ask you two more questions and this is kind of how we'll end our conversation. But really it's directed toward two different groups of people. And so the first one is we're going to be talking to people here who may be listening, maybe they're listening with their loved one that has chronic pain. But if someone's listening to this that doesn't have chronic pain, and I recognize most of our listeners will be in the other category, but what is one thing you would want people to understand about what it's like living with chronic pain?

that people generally don't get.

Glenn Newton (40:36.816)
that you can't understand.

David Heflin (40:40.674)
They can understand, yeah.

Glenn Newton (40:42.074)
that you can't understand. That's really the answer. I mean, you can try to be understanding and compassionate and caring, but you'll never truly be able to be empathetic or sympathetic because it's sympathetic because you haven't been in that same place, but you can be empathetic. You can try to help that person. Like you said earlier, I've talked to many people who's

David Heflin (40:48.844)
Right.

Glenn Newton (41:12.304)
who lost their spouse because their spouse didn't believe that they had trigeminal neuralgia. I have actually been asked to talk to a spouse that didn't believe his wife had trigeminal neuralgia. And I did. It was through text and all of that, but it was good conversation. And once he found out, he determined to get her the help

David Heflin (41:28.109)
Really?

Glenn Newton (41:41.71)
she needed and she is now in her mission because she has something called gamma knife radiation that helped her. so that's a wonderful thing. So I would just tell people, can't understand and don't ever say to anyone who has like trigeminal neuralgia, I had someone come up to me one time.

David Heflin (41:54.615)
Yeah.

Glenn Newton (42:07.19)
And again, I'm not trying to be mean, people mean well. But he came up and said, man, I know what you're going through. I get migraines every now and then. And I looked at him and I said, brother, I would kill for a migraine compared to this. Because I've had migraines. I still have migraines. But now migraines to me are, it's all relative when it comes to pain. know, it's just not.

I can stub my toe on the side of the bed and go, I stubbed my toe. And it really doesn't even hurt because my threshold of pain now is so high that not much hurts. so don't try to compare. One thing I learned through this, she asked me what I learned. Here's one thing I learned. I learned that everyone's ten is different.

David Heflin (43:04.206)
Mm-hmm.

Glenn Newton (43:05.69)
But we have to respect their 10. You know, what's your pain scale? One to 10. it's a 10. Well, for me, a 10 is trigeminal neuralgia. When my arthritis was flaring up in my back last week and I was having a hard time getting around, that was about a four. Now to someone else, that might have been a 10. And guess what? Respect that. Because they don't have the frame of reference you'd

David Heflin (43:25.699)
Right.

Glenn Newton (43:31.354)
It's really easy to say, well, you don't have any idea what pain really is. Well, yeah, they do. They do because just because their pain is different than yours, if it's a 10 for them, even if you know deep down inside, it's not as bad as what you had. You respect that and realize that their 10 is indeed a 10.

David Heflin (43:54.624)
Right. I appreciate you emphasizing both sides of that because really you're also speaking to people who are dealing with a great level of pain. Not to be dismissive of those maybe that haven't had that experience, but at the same time, you're asking people who've not had that experience to not try to compare something they've been through to what you're going through because ultimately it doesn't really help. Even if it were true that it was analogous, you know, it's just, brother,

Glenn Newton (44:02.691)
huh.

David Heflin (44:22.99)
Sister, I'm sorry. I love you and I'm going to be praying for you and I'm here for you. That is more helpful than someone saying to me, oh yeah, my back hurt once too. you know, I've got, wanted, people always told me to, and this is a little different, but the thing that probably irritated me the most, I'm a little bit older now, so people aren't saying it as much, but they used to always say, well, wait till you get to my age. And it had nothing to do with what I was going through.

Glenn Newton (44:46.918)
Yeah.

David Heflin (44:51.136)
And again, that's kind of, they didn't get it. And we do have to hear what they're saying to us with as much grace as possible. but we also are trying to help people understand what's helpful and what's not helpful.

Glenn Newton (44:53.915)
Yeah.

Glenn Newton (45:03.512)
And even if someone has trigeminal neuralgia, I don't say to them, I know how you feel because I don't, I'm not them. Everybody handles pain differently and it can be the same exact pain. know, I had my gallbladder out early this year. I'm really lucky when it comes to surgeries. I've had like a dozen in my life, but, and someone told me, I know exactly how you feel. No, they don't. They had their gallbladder out when they were 30.

I had mine out when I was 56. There's a difference. Your body heals differently when you're older. So I don't ever say to anyone, well, I know how you feel because we all handle pain different.

David Heflin (45:46.766)
That makes sense. makes sense. I appreciate you emphasizing that. So last thing I want to ask you is just, we touched on this early in the conversation, but so it's good to kind of bring it home here, but what advice would you offer to someone that's living with chronic pain or illness who feels that they are alone, that they're utterly alone in their suffering? Is there anything you would advise them to do?

Glenn Newton (46:12.762)
Well, if you do have people around you like a spouse or children or anything like that that don't seem to understand what you're going through and don't have much empathy, try to get them some education, even if that means taking them to one of your doctor's appointments with you or, you know, finding a video about what you have and sending it to them so they'll try to understand what you're going through.

I did that, I found a little short movie called The Suicide Disease and I, know, some of the people that didn't really know what I had and didn't understand why it was so bad, I just sent it to them and said, hey, would you watch this? I just want you to kind of understand what it is that I have. And it broke every one of them, you know, it like, my goodness, I'm so sorry, I had no idea. So something like that. I would also say just,

David Heflin (47:06.104)
Right.

Good boys.

Glenn Newton (47:10.842)
Find support, find a support group. mean, even a Facebook group. The first thing I did when I was diagnosed with trigeminal neuralgia is I got on Facebook and I found a trigeminal neuralgia support group. And I said, I was diagnosed today. I've been dealing with it for a year and a half. Help. You know, that's all I put. And man, I had people come that knew exactly what I said. The first time I was in a face-to-face,

I of their support groups and when I started explaining what I was going through, man, people were understanding exactly. And it was when they were explaining what they were going through, I was thinking to myself, I've never heard anyone that gets it this well. it just, it really does support.

you to talk to people who are experiencing something very very similar and if you can't find a support room support group start one start one the reason I started our first broken amended support group was because of my back pain no not because of my back pain it was because I've been through back pain and I wanted to help other people and then I started

David Heflin (48:31.37)
Right, right. That's, yeah, that's good.

Glenn Newton (48:35.968)
Started the tri demo neurologist support group a couple years ago, and we haven't really got off the ground big But we had about five people last year meeting most of the time but I Started that because I was going through it and I needed help, you know and so You know let broken amended help you start one in your area or even online just I mean we'll help you start a support group

David Heflin (48:54.324)
right.

Glenn Newton (49:03.588)
So if you need that kind of support and it's not around for you, let us help.

David Heflin (49:10.19)
Yeah, yeah, thank you, Glenn. That's a good segue into our closing today. And I just want to, again, thank you for spending the time with us on In the Seams. Thank you for your vulnerability to share what you've been through. And I know it's going to be a blessing for others to have heard that. So thank you so much.

Glenn Newton (49:28.272)
You're welcome. to do it.

David Heflin (49:31.042)
You know, Glenn mentioned support groups and so brokenamended.org, you can get information there. You can start a support group like he mentioned. You can also look to see if you can join one. We usually have some virtual support groups that are available when we don't have a support group in your area. But when you're able to be able to give back and to realize, I need a support group for my own suffering, but I also...

have a call in my life as a disciple of Jesus to be a blessing to others. And this is an opportunity to do that because sometimes people might not even think they need a support group that much. They probably need it more than they think. But let's just say they think that. Well, someone else does. And probably quite a few people around you need that kind of support. And so, yeah, we want to encourage you look at that. We also have a Facebook group for Broken and Mended. You can find all that on our website.

think you find out about the Facebook group in the about section on our website. so just check that out and reach out to us if there's any way that we can help you. Let me sign off too by mentioning that we have a virtual conference that is coming up on October the 18th. And the theme for that is broken apart, because apart we are broken, but together we begin to mend. So broken apart, mended together. And that is a free

That's a free resource. You can register for it even now and so no no cost but registration is required because it's not going to be It's gonna it'll be a private link to watch it. So October 18th. That's that's coming up before you know it just here in a couple months Maybe closer to three months, but it's it'll be here before you know it we encourage you to to come check that out and get ready for that Dave Furman beneath the Reisner to

pretty well known authors and speakers that are going to be part of our conference. Also excited to have Bahadurians, Aron and Trina, and they got a unique story, painful story in so many different ways, but a unique story and they're, they are blessing others out of their pain in their own ministry. And Shannon Kramer, who is an author and has been on our podcast before. In fact, the Bahadurians have, and as well as, as well as Shannon. So, all right, well,

David Heflin (51:48.662)
I'm going to go ahead and say thank you for being with us today on In the Seams. We hope this has been a blessing to you in some way and we look forward to having you next time. The goal is to get these released on first Mondays of the month. So be looking for the next one around that time in September.